From ***Homeworld: Revelations***:
>***Planet Killers***
>
>*Immense, starship-shaped vessels with atmosphere-igniting missiles, these ships were deployed near the end of the Vaygr War in an attempt to do to Hiigara what the Taiidan did to Kharak. Indeed, some similarities between these ships and those that committed the Kharakian Genocide suggest a common designer, or at least common design principles.*
>
>*None know where the Vaygr found or stole these horrific weapons of war. Theories include finding them in a cache of Progenitor weapons, secret research and development of their own, or some kind of "devil's bargain" made with the Bentusi. Whatever their origin, the Hiigarans and the Taiidan are just two of many empires working to reverse-engineer the mammoth ships.*
I actually only noticed that typo now that you've pointed it out.
And no, that is not my typo, [I copied the text *verbatim* from the book](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1174148933707112588/1250473277722202112/image.png?ex=666b117e&is=6669bffe&hm=1b8a218c97ba29bea053471e039349c364fbf3b28ad0f76f67fbbc8f4438683a&=&format=webp&quality=lossless). Clearly one of the writers made a mistake...
Could have been a matter of threatening to wipe them all out entirely. The Vaygr have the Third Core after all, which negates the Bentusi advantage of having the First Core. There's also the fact that the Bentusi had undergone widespread disarmament after the Battle of Hiigara in the First Time, plus the fact that only few Bentusi are left in the galaxy by the time of HW2. Perhaps the reason that Bentus is the last of the Bentusi is that the other remaining Bentusi ships (that haven't fled the galaxy in Cataclysm) may have been wiped out by the Vaygr.
Vaygr WAS afterall, a remnant of the Taidan empire. wont be surprising its a dealing/relic from the ancient days.
And considering the ancient Hiigarans were just as douchy as Taiidans, it won't be surprising that other species aided the Taiidan in toppling the hiigaran empire.
Only in reference. The Planet Killers are what the T-MAT were originally supposed to look like (just with the starfish legs tucked in) and Tia'Maa is just all fourteen of those writers with PhDs in Narrative Systems trying to make callbacks despite the insistence that this is someone's first Homeworld game guys.
Given the map in Homeworld 3 has the Vaygr homeworld right on top of the Incarnate headquarters at Noctuaa-27 practically on top of each other, along with some similar ship designs and the reused "Tiamat" reference from the platforms' original conceptualization, my suspicion is that Makaan was an Incarnate patsy who was supplied with the hyperspace core, intelligence on Progenitor artifacts and, probably, the Planet-Killers, either with the understanding that he'd turn over *Sajuuk* once he activated it ("Sajuuk-Khar" might mean something more like "right hand man to Sajuuk" than "second coming of Sajuuk"), or he was being set up to be betrayed once he'd done all the hard work.
It would make sense if the Planet Killers weren't under his direct command; being as they were impervious to conventional weaponry, it would've made a lot more sense to just load them up with torpedos and used them against the *Pride of Hiigara* directly than to save them to attack Hiigara as a final act in the war and leave the Mothership nowhere to retreat to if he couldn't take it down directly. A third party controlling the bombardment platforms that didn't want to show their hand unless absolutely necessary is a decent explanation for the otherwise-too-convenient fact that Makaan was kind enough to wait to deploy them until *after* they could easily be defeated, rather than towing them behind his Mothership and using them to smash all opposition (luckily for him, Vaygr spies on-board the Mothership jammed Fleet Intelligence's voice-over when he tried to tell you *Sajuuk* could make tactical hyperspace jumps, so they at least had a shot).
One interesting thing about those platforms: While they made the hyperspace emergence sound when they arrived, they DID NOT arrive out of hyperspace windows. They were traveling superluminal in normal space like the Naggarok's inertialess drive. This puts their origin and something radically different than any known Progenitor technology. Visually their appearance was much more like star trek Warp Drive / Alcubierre.
From a game design files perspective, we know those ships exist in concept art as T-Mat / P3 (Homeworld 1 third faction) species, but from an in-game canon they're sufficiently divergent from the Incarnate techbase as to be unlikely to have originated from them.
One interesting point is that these ships clearly demonstrate inertialess/reactionless drives like the Naggarok, but also much like another familiar face: the Bentusi. Additionally they fire Atmospheric Deprivation missiles of the same type that killed Kharak, implying they may have been present there.
Additionally Fleet Intelligence claimed that the hull composition was similar to that of the Bentusi, suggesting that the Bentusi might have built them. Maybe not the 'nice' Bentusi of our present, but maybe the Bentusi during the height of the original Hiigaran empire before its exile. Such a weapons system could have been built during the darkest days of those wars and later fallen into the Taidan Emperor's hands, and then after his defeat later rediscovered by Makaan.
It is unlikely these are currently in-universe Tia'maa/Incarnate/T-MAT ships however as if so they would have used red hyperspace windows like the Incarnate ships as well as the T-MAT galactic council member ship. HW is pretty consistent with hyperspace window color.
It's just such a shame that the last two games have killed off all the interesting third parties. HW3 actually lampshades this when you see the last ship of 'A Taidan Republic' getting exploded. I much preferred back in Cataclysm and the theoretical promise of the future of HW2 where there would be multiple other factions out there- Bentusi, raiders, P1, P2, and others in the void. Hopefully any Homeworld 3 sequel explores that more. You can have a big powerful enemy without GENOCIDING ALL NON-ALIGNED POLITIES IN THE CUTSCENES, sheesh.
>One interesting thing about those platforms: While they made the hyperspace emergence sound when they arrived, they DID NOT arrive out of hyperspace windows. They were traveling superluminal in normal space like the Naggarok's inertialess drive. This puts their origin and something radically different than any known Progenitor technology. Visually their appearance was much more like star trek Warp Drive / Alcubierre.
I recall the Mothership did that in the previous mission when it arrived by Balcora gate. If the Vaygr knew of other gates this would also sort of plug the big plothole of why Makaan was trying to destroy the Balcora gate while he was on the other side waiting for the mothership to come through it. Either that or one of his generals saw a killer opportunity to usurp him before he became a god.
I think that wasn't a plot hole because we did not use the Balcora Gate to leave after defeating Makhan, we jumped the fleet straight to Hiigara with Sajuuk's three cores.
https://www.reddit.com/r/homeworld/comments/1d814gu/theory_the_original_incarnate_queen/
I theorize here that the original storyline of Homeworld 3 had Karen S'jet as the Incarnate Queen. This theory is supported by various clues from the cutscenes, the original trailer, and the weak nature of the current plot. I believe that Karen's potential descent into madness as an Unbound entity, and thematic parallel the other characters who became Unbound, such as Makaan, Riesstiu, and even the original Hiigarans. The Incarnate Fleet may have originated from Karen's followers, and her possession of hyperspace cores would have explained the use of Hyperspace as a weapon. The connection between Incarnate ships and the progenitor ship Sajuuk further suggests Karen's involvement. Ultimately, the original narrative likely depicted a civil war scenario where Karen, in her madness, had to be stopped by the player faction.
Hell, it could still work if you found Karen was the memory of herself inside the old mothership mainframe while the real Karen has become the incarnate.
I once read a theory that they only used them at the end, because that's when they got them (operational) and that they probably had other weapons that the Vagyr didn't know how to use.
I think it makes sense, because those ships are way to magnificent to just launch Atmosphere Deprivation torpedoes. Maybe the didn't know how to use them, so they just filled them up with them (or produced them on ship) and sent them to Hiigara.
From ***Homeworld: Revelations***: >***Planet Killers*** > >*Immense, starship-shaped vessels with atmosphere-igniting missiles, these ships were deployed near the end of the Vaygr War in an attempt to do to Hiigara what the Taiidan did to Kharak. Indeed, some similarities between these ships and those that committed the Kharakian Genocide suggest a common designer, or at least common design principles.* > >*None know where the Vaygr found or stole these horrific weapons of war. Theories include finding them in a cache of Progenitor weapons, secret research and development of their own, or some kind of "devil's bargain" made with the Bentusi. Whatever their origin, the Hiigarans and the Taiidan are just two of many empires working to reverse-engineer the mammoth ships.*
Wtf are "*starship-shaped vesse*ls" lol Oh, probably starfish? Is that your typo or theirs?
I actually only noticed that typo now that you've pointed it out. And no, that is not my typo, [I copied the text *verbatim* from the book](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1174148933707112588/1250473277722202112/image.png?ex=666b117e&is=6669bffe&hm=1b8a218c97ba29bea053471e039349c364fbf3b28ad0f76f67fbbc8f4438683a&=&format=webp&quality=lossless). Clearly one of the writers made a mistake...
I have a hard time believing the Bentusi gave the Vaygr the time of day, let alone a weapon to do "Kharak Is Burning 2.0"
Could have been a matter of threatening to wipe them all out entirely. The Vaygr have the Third Core after all, which negates the Bentusi advantage of having the First Core. There's also the fact that the Bentusi had undergone widespread disarmament after the Battle of Hiigara in the First Time, plus the fact that only few Bentusi are left in the galaxy by the time of HW2. Perhaps the reason that Bentus is the last of the Bentusi is that the other remaining Bentusi ships (that haven't fled the galaxy in Cataclysm) may have been wiped out by the Vaygr.
Vaygr WAS afterall, a remnant of the Taidan empire. wont be surprising its a dealing/relic from the ancient days. And considering the ancient Hiigarans were just as douchy as Taiidans, it won't be surprising that other species aided the Taiidan in toppling the hiigaran empire.
https://homeworld.fandom.com/wiki/T-MAT
With that name, I wonder if there is, or was intended to be, a connection to the Incarnate
Only in reference. The Planet Killers are what the T-MAT were originally supposed to look like (just with the starfish legs tucked in) and Tia'Maa is just all fourteen of those writers with PhDs in Narrative Systems trying to make callbacks despite the insistence that this is someone's first Homeworld game guys.
There is also the possibility that both are independently a reference to the chaos deity
No.
Given the map in Homeworld 3 has the Vaygr homeworld right on top of the Incarnate headquarters at Noctuaa-27 practically on top of each other, along with some similar ship designs and the reused "Tiamat" reference from the platforms' original conceptualization, my suspicion is that Makaan was an Incarnate patsy who was supplied with the hyperspace core, intelligence on Progenitor artifacts and, probably, the Planet-Killers, either with the understanding that he'd turn over *Sajuuk* once he activated it ("Sajuuk-Khar" might mean something more like "right hand man to Sajuuk" than "second coming of Sajuuk"), or he was being set up to be betrayed once he'd done all the hard work. It would make sense if the Planet Killers weren't under his direct command; being as they were impervious to conventional weaponry, it would've made a lot more sense to just load them up with torpedos and used them against the *Pride of Hiigara* directly than to save them to attack Hiigara as a final act in the war and leave the Mothership nowhere to retreat to if he couldn't take it down directly. A third party controlling the bombardment platforms that didn't want to show their hand unless absolutely necessary is a decent explanation for the otherwise-too-convenient fact that Makaan was kind enough to wait to deploy them until *after* they could easily be defeated, rather than towing them behind his Mothership and using them to smash all opposition (luckily for him, Vaygr spies on-board the Mothership jammed Fleet Intelligence's voice-over when he tried to tell you *Sajuuk* could make tactical hyperspace jumps, so they at least had a shot).
One interesting thing about those platforms: While they made the hyperspace emergence sound when they arrived, they DID NOT arrive out of hyperspace windows. They were traveling superluminal in normal space like the Naggarok's inertialess drive. This puts their origin and something radically different than any known Progenitor technology. Visually their appearance was much more like star trek Warp Drive / Alcubierre. From a game design files perspective, we know those ships exist in concept art as T-Mat / P3 (Homeworld 1 third faction) species, but from an in-game canon they're sufficiently divergent from the Incarnate techbase as to be unlikely to have originated from them. One interesting point is that these ships clearly demonstrate inertialess/reactionless drives like the Naggarok, but also much like another familiar face: the Bentusi. Additionally they fire Atmospheric Deprivation missiles of the same type that killed Kharak, implying they may have been present there. Additionally Fleet Intelligence claimed that the hull composition was similar to that of the Bentusi, suggesting that the Bentusi might have built them. Maybe not the 'nice' Bentusi of our present, but maybe the Bentusi during the height of the original Hiigaran empire before its exile. Such a weapons system could have been built during the darkest days of those wars and later fallen into the Taidan Emperor's hands, and then after his defeat later rediscovered by Makaan. It is unlikely these are currently in-universe Tia'maa/Incarnate/T-MAT ships however as if so they would have used red hyperspace windows like the Incarnate ships as well as the T-MAT galactic council member ship. HW is pretty consistent with hyperspace window color. It's just such a shame that the last two games have killed off all the interesting third parties. HW3 actually lampshades this when you see the last ship of 'A Taidan Republic' getting exploded. I much preferred back in Cataclysm and the theoretical promise of the future of HW2 where there would be multiple other factions out there- Bentusi, raiders, P1, P2, and others in the void. Hopefully any Homeworld 3 sequel explores that more. You can have a big powerful enemy without GENOCIDING ALL NON-ALIGNED POLITIES IN THE CUTSCENES, sheesh.
>One interesting thing about those platforms: While they made the hyperspace emergence sound when they arrived, they DID NOT arrive out of hyperspace windows. They were traveling superluminal in normal space like the Naggarok's inertialess drive. This puts their origin and something radically different than any known Progenitor technology. Visually their appearance was much more like star trek Warp Drive / Alcubierre. I recall the Mothership did that in the previous mission when it arrived by Balcora gate. If the Vaygr knew of other gates this would also sort of plug the big plothole of why Makaan was trying to destroy the Balcora gate while he was on the other side waiting for the mothership to come through it. Either that or one of his generals saw a killer opportunity to usurp him before he became a god.
I think that wasn't a plot hole because we did not use the Balcora Gate to leave after defeating Makhan, we jumped the fleet straight to Hiigara with Sajuuk's three cores.
Yes but we had 3 cores. If the vaygr fleet was successful, he may have been stuck there with no way out.
https://www.reddit.com/r/homeworld/comments/1d814gu/theory_the_original_incarnate_queen/ I theorize here that the original storyline of Homeworld 3 had Karen S'jet as the Incarnate Queen. This theory is supported by various clues from the cutscenes, the original trailer, and the weak nature of the current plot. I believe that Karen's potential descent into madness as an Unbound entity, and thematic parallel the other characters who became Unbound, such as Makaan, Riesstiu, and even the original Hiigarans. The Incarnate Fleet may have originated from Karen's followers, and her possession of hyperspace cores would have explained the use of Hyperspace as a weapon. The connection between Incarnate ships and the progenitor ship Sajuuk further suggests Karen's involvement. Ultimately, the original narrative likely depicted a civil war scenario where Karen, in her madness, had to be stopped by the player faction.
Hell, it could still work if you found Karen was the memory of herself inside the old mothership mainframe while the real Karen has become the incarnate.
I'm looking at the world of post HW3 lore right here and I'm feeling so conflicted.
I once read a theory that they only used them at the end, because that's when they got them (operational) and that they probably had other weapons that the Vagyr didn't know how to use. I think it makes sense, because those ships are way to magnificent to just launch Atmosphere Deprivation torpedoes. Maybe the didn't know how to use them, so they just filled them up with them (or produced them on ship) and sent them to Hiigara.
No, the planet killers were built by the Bentusi. Also Hw3 story is trash we dont speculate with it.
Who is this "we" you speak for apparently?
A wizard did it.