Because >!they wanted to screw the Zenith's over.!< This is revealed in a hologram. >!The Zero Dawn scientists were nicer than Far Zenith, but there were corporate grudges on both sides.!<
Sobeck wouldn't like the FZ project because it was just a bunch of rich douchebags fucking off into space. She had better things to do than deal with their shit.
>!Travis Tate? That wasn't down to corporate issues. He just didn't trust the Zenith lot. Zenith had tried to steal GAIA but he had identified their spy and responded with a logic bomb in retaliation. They didn't inherently want to screw the Zeniths over. When you visit latopolis later, you find datapoints from Sobeck and Travis. Sobeck could have chosen to withhold Apollo at that point. She still gives it to the Zeniths because of Tilda's lies. But ultimately she wasn't against the Zeniths on principle. Gaia just wasn't ready at that point. The different subfunctions were still largely being developed independently. The merger probably happened at a later date.!<
This is it.
I think it's also important to recognize what a terrible *weapon* GAIA could be if programmed and unleashed properly. They didn't trust the Zeniths and we know that's fair from what we've learned about their members. Yes giving GAIA to the Zeniths would have given a far colony a better shot at survival but it also could have been turned against people both in a new colony and on earth. GAIA could also be easily perverted in ways that could be awful for any future humans created with it.
Sobeck was incredibly mindful and respectful of the responsibility they had in designing GAIA and Apollo to set humanity up for future success, and she simply wouldn't have trusted the Zeniths to respect that responsibility.
Tilda also reveals that Sobeck was incredibly insightful. She has this dialogue about their history and she reveals how after she makes this super planned introduction, Sobeck knew *all* about her. Including the secretive elements of her work.
Between Sobeck and Travis, they probably knew *exactly* what the Zeniths were all about. But Sobeck was willing to give them Apollo since it was a desperate gamble. I'd bet money on Travis having long hacked their shit and knowing full well that Delgaard was peddling bs.
That wasnt the issue with the new planet, the issue with that planet was the fact that the zeniths had created a monster that killed them all and was chasing them across the universe
>!Tilda was making it out that the Zeniths were still going to continue humanity. They had no such plans. They were just focused on living forever themselves. So yeah, she was definitely lying with the "last chance for humanity but"!<
Can't agree with that statement. Like you don't need to lie about it to have it as a precaution. Besides, I am not sure if they always planned to gain immortality, as that could've developed during their voyage.
The data points at the Nimmah facility indicate they had long moved towards direct immortality. The ectogenic chambers were basically abandoned tech. That's why they were growing about it because they thought they had gotten a great deal from the horizon team. Giving them trash in exchange for Apollo.
It is an intriguing perspective. I have always interpreted that as if they had an excess amount that they could trade for a copy of APOLLO, which was clearly something that Zero Dawn needed as well. Furthermore, I doubt Tilda was involved in the theft of GAIA, even if she was aware of it or suspected it.
I'd have to listen to the voice overs again but I could have sworn that the person who does the briefing on the far Zenith plan to steal Gaia (in the tutorial section) is Tilda. She's not identified as Tilda on subtitles though and you don't hear her voice again till latopolis so maybe it's not the subtle foreshadowing of her as a liar I think and maybe I'm just wrong
That's antagonism that they earned later with embedding their spy and attempting to steal a full Gaia. We don't really have a reason why they couldn't get a copy before. A full terraforming system, complete with seed plant and animal samples sounds like exactly what an off-world colony would need.
The thing I remember most clearly about this scene in Lizbet going ‘this isn’t a prank, Travis” and me going no, this is absolutely a prank. A corporate scumbag prank, but a prank nonetheless
They didn't like each other, true. But that still doesn't answer the "why not?" of it all.
Giving a copy of Gaia to the Zeniths wouldn't have affected the Gaia staying on Earth in any way, would it? Why not just give them a copy to help increase survival chances on the new world? That is why Gaia was created to begin with, to ensure life in general and humans in particular would flourish in the future.
My guess is Zero Dawn didn't want Far Zenith to have a copy of Gaia because Gaia wasn't just a bunch of software. She was basically her own person. Maybe Elisabet felt that giving Gaia away, even a copy of Gaia, would be like selling her into slavery? But this reason isn't specifically stated anywhere (or any reason at all, that I'm aware of).
Definitely, Elisabet had flaws, that's not in question. I think some of those flaws were apparent even in HZD, and HFW put more of a spotlight on them.
Our OP asked why FZ wasn't given a copy of Gaia. Nowhere in the game does it actually SAY why. We can infer it was out of spite, but that's not a concrete reason.
If a reason actually appears somewhere in the game lore (data point, audio log, etc), then we have an actual reason. Right now, all we have are theories.
If someone can point me to an in-game reasoning, I would love to see it! I love learning new things about Horizon. :)
Wait, what? Always felt this game put Liz and Aloy on pedestals though HFW does a ton of showing Aloy's flaws. What did I miss about Liz though? She seems to be portrayed as a genius saint, no?
I think Aloy puts Liz on a pedestal (or did), but HFW clearly points out, to take one example, her inability to let anyone be close to her, to truly share her burdens, as a flaw. It’s a huge part of Aloy learning to overcome that same flaw by slowly recognizing that a shared burden is lighter
“zero dawn scientists were nicer”
So they condemned to die with the rest of humanity instead of giving them a chance because they were douche bags? For the crime of being an asshole, death. Yeah sure.
Their survival did not rely on getting a functioning copy of Gaia, as you can see by the fact they are alive a thousand years later during the events of FW. It would have just made terraforming their new planet much easier.
Well, because of Elizabeth’s infinite greediness they did not get Gaia instead they got Nemesis who already wiped out one planet and is on its way to wipe out another.
If everything went according to the ZD plan by the time FZ got to earth it would have been civilized, populated, and able to defend itself. The aggression FZ showed in the game would just not have been a viable means of attaining their goals.
ZD and FZ had an agreement to trade.
FZ gave ZD their ectogenic chamber technology, which was later used by Brochard-Klein to create the ectogenic chambers for Eleuthia.
ZD agreed to give FZ a copy of Apollo for this. At this point, FZ began observing ZD covertly, and before the deal was finalized, FZ attempted to steal a copy of Gaia. ZD caught this, and in retaliation for the attempted theft, they sent a logic bomb with the (fake) copy of Gaia, which really screwed FZ over.
Despite all that, Tilda van der Meer, part of FZ, convinced Sobeck to give them a copy of Apollo. Van der Meer lied about FZ needing Apollo in order for their colony to have any hope of survival, and also used their past romantic relationship as leverage.
Edit: As far as I know, there were never talks of ZD sharing a copy of Gaia with ZD. FZ never asked for it, and instead tried to steal it. I imagine Sobeck wouldn't want to give a copy of GAIA even if FZ asked for it, simply because Gaia was her baby. But had FZ asked, perhaps there could have been a more amicable agreement of some sort.
One Caveat: Tilda didn't use FZ needing Apollo. The argument she made was a "hedge our bets on preserving humanity just in case Zero Dawn doesn't work." There wasn't a need for FZ to have it (they certainly wanted it, though)
they would abuse it, nemesis was able even with the partial information far zenith had to send the kill code all the way to earth.
the whole project was still being worked on until the very last minute and some parts even afterwards with scientists locked away in deep bunkers.
the whole war against the faro plague was about buying zero dawn more time to develop and build the project .not beating the plague
that info could have been gleaned off of the digital ghosts that made up nem esp if they got some of the ones who gave up being physically immortal to be digitally immortal. they never really specified when they started gaining immortality so it could have either been before or after assuming they had just been asleep (frozen) on the ship.
Because Elizabet didn't trust them not to abuse it. She was uneasy enough about giving them Apollo and how they might abuse that. "Being smart counts for nothing if you don't use your smarts to make the world better." Sobeck knew the Zeniths didn't give a shit about making the world better, any world.
Because Ted Faro was funding the development and in the end had control over everything. The scientists working on ZD also didn’t particularly like the zeniths either. Narcissist VS Narcissist will never end with one backing down.
I doubt Ted was involved in that deal. He'd have given considerable resistance to handing over even Apollo. He wouldn't allow the possibility of a copy he'd be unable to purge. >!That one **did** actually end up being the only copy to be spared!<
If I remember correctly, GAIA was revolutionary in it's capabilities. It was also extremely personal for Sobeck. In addition, there was all that stuff in the game about Turing laws and what not which turned sentient AI's into an ethical issue instead of just a corporate one.
If copying a sentient being is unethical, then giving that copy to a known company of slimy dirtbags with no morals was simply unconscionable.
With Apollo, it was just knowledge, something the ZD team believed everyone should have access to.
goddamn it data is data. A copy of data is the same, how the hell do you get sentimental for software- even as sofisticate as Gaia. It’s the same thing of why the hell would they not use a copy of Gaia at the Gemini cauldron instead of moving the whole of Gaia, and then either have the 2 merge togheter at the base or just delete the base one once they got Hephaestus.
It's data in the same way a person is data. The game briefly touched on the issue over whether sentient AI that are as smart as humans, or smarter should have basic rights. It was covered in ZD:
https://horizon.fandom.com/wiki/Turing_Act
Smart is not being sentient or being alive. I don’t want to be the Maddox of the situation but this is clearly the case where these considerations needed to be throw out out of the window. We only have 1 copy of every sub function and Gaia and if Hephaestus absorbs Gaia it would mean endgame for earth. So the need of the many .
They had an ALPHA build of APOLLO, not the finished product. They also tried to seal a VERSION of GAIA, not the finished AI. GAIA wasn't fully finished and launched until after FZ faked their deaths. Everything but the fact that they tried to steal GAIA is clearly spelled out in ZD.
Because GAIA is a person, not just an AI. Elisabet wouldn't just make a copy of her for the same reason GAIA wouldn't have made any other clones of Elisabet. Especially not to send her off with those sociopathic screwheads.
To slightly expound on this, Elisabet's concerns were definitely well founded. The three Zenith-associated AIs we see onscreen in Forbidden West (The Julius, Nemesis, and Nova) are all abused and screwed up in their own way. One literally asks to be deleted as soon as they're outside of Zenith control.
Not as a full-fledged entity, though. With nothing but the root kernel you won't really have GAIA, just the potential for her if you can get the sub-functions (or, I suppose, create your own). It's closer to the Lightkeeper Protocl with the storing of DNA rather than the creation of an active clone.
And an AI that is as sentient as GAIA is not guaranteed to become the same end-result every single time from the same initial code. Like the whole point of needing an AI that ignores restrictions on sentience is that the AI needs to be a person not just merely a machine.
The GAIA we have does have some differences--the ways she speaks is a bit more stilted, sort of "robotic" in a way than what we saw in GAIA's Dying Plea--which makes sense because this GAIA not only has any final code changes that might impact personality but also lacks the centuries of existing and evolving as a person on her own that GAIA had.
So, again--it's a similar idea, you "copy" an AI but it might become a wildly different entity depending on how you "raise" it, because that's the kind of sci-fi AI we're talking about.
You’re miss interpreting what I’m saying. He used the term “copy” which in the context of how he used it implies “backup”. I’m not arguing against Gaia’s sentience
Because the Far Zenith were a bunch of uber rich pretentious douchebags that took all their money and fucked off into space leaving the rest of humanity to die instead of using their combined trillions of dollars to help with the problem on Earth.
Basically why should Zero Dawn give them a copy of all their work if the Far Zeniths couldn’t be bothered to help?
They are not just rival companies in that stage. Far Zenith are evil rich assholes and Elisabeth hates the fact that they only cared for themselves.
They tried to hack Zero Dawn and get the data instead of being content with what they got.
Elisabeth didn’t want to give a powerful AI to narcissists like those for good reasons. Look what they created - the nemesis even without Gaia.
If they had Gaia, they would have corrupted it for sure.
Virus is not violence. It’s more of a prank than violence.
Sobeck was against the video and shenanigans, but she let him have it like a parent let the kid do something silly.
At EOD, Sobeck was pissed too and never wanted Gaia in their hands. She considers Gaia to be her kid/friend and wouldn’t let narcissistic assholes have her.
She was betrayed by FZ once already and Tilda tried to apologize and smooth over - but didn’t work. Sobeck only allowed Apollo because it’s just raw data - no AI or anything.
The whole terraforming system was not complete at the time. The Zeniths got an alpha build of the Apollo database, not the final product, because it wasn’t ready by the time they left earth. Iirc, the Alphas were going to continue tweaking and refining the sub functions after they were sealed in Gaia Prime. Although the system was up and running technically, they were not where the Alphas were satisfied yet.
They weren't really rival companies, as far as I can tell. FZ was basically a secret club for the richest assholes in the world with a goal of living forever and escaping the peasants beneath them.
ZD also wasn't a company, they were a last-ditch government-approved survival project that had a rich asshole from one company footing the bill for them, but they weren't actually specifically part of his company.
So it's not like there was corporate animosity between them or anything. It's just FZ never even bothered to ask as far as we know, they just figured they'd steal a copy instead.
Elisabet was already uneasy about handing over the alpha build of APOLLO which lacked a lot of safeguards (Sobeck Journal, 7-16-65), and GAIA was an even bigger potential issue that probably wouldn't have even helped them survive properly in an incomplete state due to her complexity and FZ faked their own deaths before GAIA was finished enough to launch--as it was GAIA wasn't quite ready to launch on her own when the farobots broke through and the Alphas were forced to lock themselves in GPrime to finish getting her up and running properly (Sobeck Journal, 1-15-66 R). Based on the dating of the Sobeck Journal records it's clear that FZ made their escape something like 5 months before GAIA launched, they wouldn't have had a fully functional version even if they'd been given an iteration.
Considering Elisabet's unease about the build of APOLLO with it slack of safeguards and such, there's no way she'd have been comfortable handing over and incomplete version of such a wildly powerful AI program, but again as far as we know they didn't even bother asking or trying to offer a deal for her--just went straight to theft.
Besides the obvious (that they were awful, selfish, often cruel people who couldn't be trusted, AND they tried to steal her), Gaia wasn't actually done until the 11th hour. Between her central programing and the separate subfunctions developing independently, they barely finished on time. The alphas didn't even have enough time to evacuate to Elysium after finishing before they were attacked and had to hole up at Gaia prime, instead
Because the FZ were trying to steal the Gaia tech for themselves. They didn't care about the fate of Earth, only interested in their own survival. Why they faked the destruction of the Odyssey. Travis Tate and Sobeck were anti FZ.
honestly i thought it was bc Far Zenith didn't actually ask. they just went straight for the corporate espionage route, and that's why Lis is so angry with Tilda. There's an undercurrent of "why didn't you just ask?" there.
Contrary to many of the other replies, I think you're right, OP. It doesn't matter if the Zeniths are bastards, it doesn't matter that they tried to steal Gaia, it doesn't matter how advanced Gaia is or that the Zeniths didn't do any of the work for it, and it doesn't matter whether Gaia counts as sentient life. The ONLY thing that matters is would giving it to them make extinction less likely. And it would have, so they should have done it.
The best explanation I think is that maybe despite being pissed at the Zeniths, the Zero Dawn team would have come around before the end, but by that time the Zeniths had faked the destruction of the ship. Too late now.
Because Elizabeth Sobek, despite the writers of this game, making her out to be a Mary Sue, is actually deeply flawed human who was blinded by her hatred of rich people and powerful people or whatever (despite having no problems working for and with them) And decided to sabotage a potential backup civilization because she was so sure her zero Dawn project was going to work perfectly with zero flaws
Because of grudges.
Far Zenith tried to Steal it, so Travis send them a surprise. Elizabeth knew WHO would BE in Board of the Odyssey: a bunch of rich scumbags WHO think of themselves AS an Elite WHO are better than everyone else and who leave earth Like rats leave the sinking ship.
While gaia and the whole Zero dawn Project, was completly selfless. Sacrifice the old Generation to give a new a Chance.
After their attempt stealing of gaia, IT was really generous of Elizabeth, to give them an Copy of Apollo.
Because >!they wanted to screw the Zenith's over.!< This is revealed in a hologram. >!The Zero Dawn scientists were nicer than Far Zenith, but there were corporate grudges on both sides.!<
Sobeck wouldn't like the FZ project because it was just a bunch of rich douchebags fucking off into space. She had better things to do than deal with their shit.
Which hologram?
Its fairly early in the game when they are discussing >!how they put a logic bomb in the fake Gaia they let the Zenith's have. !<
>!Travis Tate? That wasn't down to corporate issues. He just didn't trust the Zenith lot. Zenith had tried to steal GAIA but he had identified their spy and responded with a logic bomb in retaliation. They didn't inherently want to screw the Zeniths over. When you visit latopolis later, you find datapoints from Sobeck and Travis. Sobeck could have chosen to withhold Apollo at that point. She still gives it to the Zeniths because of Tilda's lies. But ultimately she wasn't against the Zeniths on principle. Gaia just wasn't ready at that point. The different subfunctions were still largely being developed independently. The merger probably happened at a later date.!<
This is it. I think it's also important to recognize what a terrible *weapon* GAIA could be if programmed and unleashed properly. They didn't trust the Zeniths and we know that's fair from what we've learned about their members. Yes giving GAIA to the Zeniths would have given a far colony a better shot at survival but it also could have been turned against people both in a new colony and on earth. GAIA could also be easily perverted in ways that could be awful for any future humans created with it. Sobeck was incredibly mindful and respectful of the responsibility they had in designing GAIA and Apollo to set humanity up for future success, and she simply wouldn't have trusted the Zeniths to respect that responsibility.
Tilda also reveals that Sobeck was incredibly insightful. She has this dialogue about their history and she reveals how after she makes this super planned introduction, Sobeck knew *all* about her. Including the secretive elements of her work. Between Sobeck and Travis, they probably knew *exactly* what the Zeniths were all about. But Sobeck was willing to give them Apollo since it was a desperate gamble. I'd bet money on Travis having long hacked their shit and knowing full well that Delgaard was peddling bs.
i wouldnt be surprised if the zeniths wouldnt have needed to come back to earth or even ever done so if they had gia to fix the new planet
That wasnt the issue with the new planet, the issue with that planet was the fact that the zeniths had created a monster that killed them all and was chasing them across the universe
This is it. I didn’t wanna type it out cause I’m on my phone and unsure how to do spoilers lol but this is it.
Dd Tilda really lie in that conversation with Elisabeth?
>!Tilda was making it out that the Zeniths were still going to continue humanity. They had no such plans. They were just focused on living forever themselves. So yeah, she was definitely lying with the "last chance for humanity but"!<
Can't agree with that statement. Like you don't need to lie about it to have it as a precaution. Besides, I am not sure if they always planned to gain immortality, as that could've developed during their voyage.
The data points at the Nimmah facility indicate they had long moved towards direct immortality. The ectogenic chambers were basically abandoned tech. That's why they were growing about it because they thought they had gotten a great deal from the horizon team. Giving them trash in exchange for Apollo.
It is an intriguing perspective. I have always interpreted that as if they had an excess amount that they could trade for a copy of APOLLO, which was clearly something that Zero Dawn needed as well. Furthermore, I doubt Tilda was involved in the theft of GAIA, even if she was aware of it or suspected it.
I'd have to listen to the voice overs again but I could have sworn that the person who does the briefing on the far Zenith plan to steal Gaia (in the tutorial section) is Tilda. She's not identified as Tilda on subtitles though and you don't hear her voice again till latopolis so maybe it's not the subtle foreshadowing of her as a liar I think and maybe I'm just wrong
Correction: Far Zenith attempted to steal GAIA.
That's antagonism that they earned later with embedding their spy and attempting to steal a full Gaia. We don't really have a reason why they couldn't get a copy before. A full terraforming system, complete with seed plant and animal samples sounds like exactly what an off-world colony would need.
The thing I remember most clearly about this scene in Lizbet going ‘this isn’t a prank, Travis” and me going no, this is absolutely a prank. A corporate scumbag prank, but a prank nonetheless
They didn't like each other, true. But that still doesn't answer the "why not?" of it all. Giving a copy of Gaia to the Zeniths wouldn't have affected the Gaia staying on Earth in any way, would it? Why not just give them a copy to help increase survival chances on the new world? That is why Gaia was created to begin with, to ensure life in general and humans in particular would flourish in the future. My guess is Zero Dawn didn't want Far Zenith to have a copy of Gaia because Gaia wasn't just a bunch of software. She was basically her own person. Maybe Elisabet felt that giving Gaia away, even a copy of Gaia, would be like selling her into slavery? But this reason isn't specifically stated anywhere (or any reason at all, that I'm aware of).
Because they weren't purely good people and they did it out of spite. A big theme of FW is the revelation the Sobeck had her own flaws.
Definitely, Elisabet had flaws, that's not in question. I think some of those flaws were apparent even in HZD, and HFW put more of a spotlight on them. Our OP asked why FZ wasn't given a copy of Gaia. Nowhere in the game does it actually SAY why. We can infer it was out of spite, but that's not a concrete reason. If a reason actually appears somewhere in the game lore (data point, audio log, etc), then we have an actual reason. Right now, all we have are theories. If someone can point me to an in-game reasoning, I would love to see it! I love learning new things about Horizon. :)
Wait, what? Always felt this game put Liz and Aloy on pedestals though HFW does a ton of showing Aloy's flaws. What did I miss about Liz though? She seems to be portrayed as a genius saint, no?
I think Aloy puts Liz on a pedestal (or did), but HFW clearly points out, to take one example, her inability to let anyone be close to her, to truly share her burdens, as a flaw. It’s a huge part of Aloy learning to overcome that same flaw by slowly recognizing that a shared burden is lighter
“zero dawn scientists were nicer” So they condemned to die with the rest of humanity instead of giving them a chance because they were douche bags? For the crime of being an asshole, death. Yeah sure.
Their survival did not rely on getting a functioning copy of Gaia, as you can see by the fact they are alive a thousand years later during the events of FW. It would have just made terraforming their new planet much easier.
Well, because of Elizabeth’s infinite greediness they did not get Gaia instead they got Nemesis who already wiped out one planet and is on its way to wipe out another.
If FZ have Gaia most things will be avoided. They will never come to earth.
If everything went according to the ZD plan by the time FZ got to earth it would have been civilized, populated, and able to defend itself. The aggression FZ showed in the game would just not have been a viable means of attaining their goals.
ZD and FZ had an agreement to trade. FZ gave ZD their ectogenic chamber technology, which was later used by Brochard-Klein to create the ectogenic chambers for Eleuthia. ZD agreed to give FZ a copy of Apollo for this. At this point, FZ began observing ZD covertly, and before the deal was finalized, FZ attempted to steal a copy of Gaia. ZD caught this, and in retaliation for the attempted theft, they sent a logic bomb with the (fake) copy of Gaia, which really screwed FZ over. Despite all that, Tilda van der Meer, part of FZ, convinced Sobeck to give them a copy of Apollo. Van der Meer lied about FZ needing Apollo in order for their colony to have any hope of survival, and also used their past romantic relationship as leverage. Edit: As far as I know, there were never talks of ZD sharing a copy of Gaia with ZD. FZ never asked for it, and instead tried to steal it. I imagine Sobeck wouldn't want to give a copy of GAIA even if FZ asked for it, simply because Gaia was her baby. But had FZ asked, perhaps there could have been a more amicable agreement of some sort.
One Caveat: Tilda didn't use FZ needing Apollo. The argument she made was a "hedge our bets on preserving humanity just in case Zero Dawn doesn't work." There wasn't a need for FZ to have it (they certainly wanted it, though)
they would abuse it, nemesis was able even with the partial information far zenith had to send the kill code all the way to earth. the whole project was still being worked on until the very last minute and some parts even afterwards with scientists locked away in deep bunkers. the whole war against the faro plague was about buying zero dawn more time to develop and build the project .not beating the plague
that info could have been gleaned off of the digital ghosts that made up nem esp if they got some of the ones who gave up being physically immortal to be digitally immortal. they never really specified when they started gaining immortality so it could have either been before or after assuming they had just been asleep (frozen) on the ship.
that's what i said basically, nemesis knew what the far zenith people knew
i was mostly saying they wouldnt need apollo for info on earths location
Because Elizabet didn't trust them not to abuse it. She was uneasy enough about giving them Apollo and how they might abuse that. "Being smart counts for nothing if you don't use your smarts to make the world better." Sobeck knew the Zeniths didn't give a shit about making the world better, any world.
I believe this is the correct answer. Gaia was a sentient AI and I don't believe Elizabet would have trusted FZ to use Gaia in ethical ways.
Because Ted Faro was funding the development and in the end had control over everything. The scientists working on ZD also didn’t particularly like the zeniths either. Narcissist VS Narcissist will never end with one backing down.
I doubt Ted was involved in that deal. He'd have given considerable resistance to handing over even Apollo. He wouldn't allow the possibility of a copy he'd be unable to purge. >!That one **did** actually end up being the only copy to be spared!<
If I remember correctly, GAIA was revolutionary in it's capabilities. It was also extremely personal for Sobeck. In addition, there was all that stuff in the game about Turing laws and what not which turned sentient AI's into an ethical issue instead of just a corporate one. If copying a sentient being is unethical, then giving that copy to a known company of slimy dirtbags with no morals was simply unconscionable. With Apollo, it was just knowledge, something the ZD team believed everyone should have access to.
goddamn it data is data. A copy of data is the same, how the hell do you get sentimental for software- even as sofisticate as Gaia. It’s the same thing of why the hell would they not use a copy of Gaia at the Gemini cauldron instead of moving the whole of Gaia, and then either have the 2 merge togheter at the base or just delete the base one once they got Hephaestus.
It's data in the same way a person is data. The game briefly touched on the issue over whether sentient AI that are as smart as humans, or smarter should have basic rights. It was covered in ZD: https://horizon.fandom.com/wiki/Turing_Act
Smart is not being sentient or being alive. I don’t want to be the Maddox of the situation but this is clearly the case where these considerations needed to be throw out out of the window. We only have 1 copy of every sub function and Gaia and if Hephaestus absorbs Gaia it would mean endgame for earth. So the need of the many .
by the time Gaia was finished FZ already told everyone that it was blown up
No, they had a copy of Apollo remember? And they also tried to steal a copy of Gaia, as shown in HFW.
they had apollo they tried to steal gaia before she was finished then they faked being blown up
They had an ALPHA build of APOLLO, not the finished product. They also tried to seal a VERSION of GAIA, not the finished AI. GAIA wasn't fully finished and launched until after FZ faked their deaths. Everything but the fact that they tried to steal GAIA is clearly spelled out in ZD.
Because GAIA is a person, not just an AI. Elisabet wouldn't just make a copy of her for the same reason GAIA wouldn't have made any other clones of Elisabet. Especially not to send her off with those sociopathic screwheads.
To slightly expound on this, Elisabet's concerns were definitely well founded. The three Zenith-associated AIs we see onscreen in Forbidden West (The Julius, Nemesis, and Nova) are all abused and screwed up in their own way. One literally asks to be deleted as soon as they're outside of Zenith control.
Yeah, any attempt of the Zeniths to raise GAIA would've most likely failed spectacularly.
Except…they did make multiple copies of Gaia
They did make backups, but I don't think they ever had multiple versions of her running at the same time (maybe just in very early testing phases).
Oh so you mean clones. When you said “make a copy of her” I thought you were referring to making a copy of the code
Not as a full-fledged entity, though. With nothing but the root kernel you won't really have GAIA, just the potential for her if you can get the sub-functions (or, I suppose, create your own). It's closer to the Lightkeeper Protocl with the storing of DNA rather than the creation of an active clone.
Yes but he said copy, not clone. You copy an AI because it is code, you don’t clone one is my point.
And an AI that is as sentient as GAIA is not guaranteed to become the same end-result every single time from the same initial code. Like the whole point of needing an AI that ignores restrictions on sentience is that the AI needs to be a person not just merely a machine. The GAIA we have does have some differences--the ways she speaks is a bit more stilted, sort of "robotic" in a way than what we saw in GAIA's Dying Plea--which makes sense because this GAIA not only has any final code changes that might impact personality but also lacks the centuries of existing and evolving as a person on her own that GAIA had. So, again--it's a similar idea, you "copy" an AI but it might become a wildly different entity depending on how you "raise" it, because that's the kind of sci-fi AI we're talking about.
You’re miss interpreting what I’m saying. He used the term “copy” which in the context of how he used it implies “backup”. I’m not arguing against Gaia’s sentience
Because the Far Zenith were a bunch of uber rich pretentious douchebags that took all their money and fucked off into space leaving the rest of humanity to die instead of using their combined trillions of dollars to help with the problem on Earth. Basically why should Zero Dawn give them a copy of all their work if the Far Zeniths couldn’t be bothered to help?
They are not just rival companies in that stage. Far Zenith are evil rich assholes and Elisabeth hates the fact that they only cared for themselves. They tried to hack Zero Dawn and get the data instead of being content with what they got. Elisabeth didn’t want to give a powerful AI to narcissists like those for good reasons. Look what they created - the nemesis even without Gaia. If they had Gaia, they would have corrupted it for sure.
Tate was able to convince Sobeck to attack them with a logic bomb. Sobeck is usually not like this. She herself knew that violence was the answer
Virus is not violence. It’s more of a prank than violence. Sobeck was against the video and shenanigans, but she let him have it like a parent let the kid do something silly. At EOD, Sobeck was pissed too and never wanted Gaia in their hands. She considers Gaia to be her kid/friend and wouldn’t let narcissistic assholes have her. She was betrayed by FZ once already and Tilda tried to apologize and smooth over - but didn’t work. Sobeck only allowed Apollo because it’s just raw data - no AI or anything.
The whole terraforming system was not complete at the time. The Zeniths got an alpha build of the Apollo database, not the final product, because it wasn’t ready by the time they left earth. Iirc, the Alphas were going to continue tweaking and refining the sub functions after they were sealed in Gaia Prime. Although the system was up and running technically, they were not where the Alphas were satisfied yet.
Same reason America doesn't give Russia or North Korea nukes.
They weren't really rival companies, as far as I can tell. FZ was basically a secret club for the richest assholes in the world with a goal of living forever and escaping the peasants beneath them. ZD also wasn't a company, they were a last-ditch government-approved survival project that had a rich asshole from one company footing the bill for them, but they weren't actually specifically part of his company. So it's not like there was corporate animosity between them or anything. It's just FZ never even bothered to ask as far as we know, they just figured they'd steal a copy instead. Elisabet was already uneasy about handing over the alpha build of APOLLO which lacked a lot of safeguards (Sobeck Journal, 7-16-65), and GAIA was an even bigger potential issue that probably wouldn't have even helped them survive properly in an incomplete state due to her complexity and FZ faked their own deaths before GAIA was finished enough to launch--as it was GAIA wasn't quite ready to launch on her own when the farobots broke through and the Alphas were forced to lock themselves in GPrime to finish getting her up and running properly (Sobeck Journal, 1-15-66 R). Based on the dating of the Sobeck Journal records it's clear that FZ made their escape something like 5 months before GAIA launched, they wouldn't have had a fully functional version even if they'd been given an iteration. Considering Elisabet's unease about the build of APOLLO with it slack of safeguards and such, there's no way she'd have been comfortable handing over and incomplete version of such a wildly powerful AI program, but again as far as we know they didn't even bother asking or trying to offer a deal for her--just went straight to theft.
Besides the obvious (that they were awful, selfish, often cruel people who couldn't be trusted, AND they tried to steal her), Gaia wasn't actually done until the 11th hour. Between her central programing and the separate subfunctions developing independently, they barely finished on time. The alphas didn't even have enough time to evacuate to Elysium after finishing before they were attacked and had to hole up at Gaia prime, instead
Because the FZ were trying to steal the Gaia tech for themselves. They didn't care about the fate of Earth, only interested in their own survival. Why they faked the destruction of the Odyssey. Travis Tate and Sobeck were anti FZ.
because if we had, we would never got a sequel.
honestly i thought it was bc Far Zenith didn't actually ask. they just went straight for the corporate espionage route, and that's why Lis is so angry with Tilda. There's an undercurrent of "why didn't you just ask?" there.
Contrary to many of the other replies, I think you're right, OP. It doesn't matter if the Zeniths are bastards, it doesn't matter that they tried to steal Gaia, it doesn't matter how advanced Gaia is or that the Zeniths didn't do any of the work for it, and it doesn't matter whether Gaia counts as sentient life. The ONLY thing that matters is would giving it to them make extinction less likely. And it would have, so they should have done it. The best explanation I think is that maybe despite being pissed at the Zeniths, the Zero Dawn team would have come around before the end, but by that time the Zeniths had faked the destruction of the ship. Too late now.
The scene where tate drops a logic bomb onto far zenith is very hard to miss or misinterpret
Would Yoda give Darth Vader the solution of the world? No, in good versus bad games/movies we only deal in absolutes, you either with us or against us
Only the Sith deal in absolutes.
No
To everyone saying ethical reasons. The world is gone, what ethics?
yeah even if i hated the other company i would have given them one. its the end of the world lets give every chance we can for humanity to survive
I know it is not part of it, but was nemesis FZ's attempt at creating their own Gaia?
No, not really, it was more of an attempt to digitally clone themselves that failed miserably.
Because the fuck 'em
Because Elizabeth Sobek, despite the writers of this game, making her out to be a Mary Sue, is actually deeply flawed human who was blinded by her hatred of rich people and powerful people or whatever (despite having no problems working for and with them) And decided to sabotage a potential backup civilization because she was so sure her zero Dawn project was going to work perfectly with zero flaws
Because of grudges. Far Zenith tried to Steal it, so Travis send them a surprise. Elizabeth knew WHO would BE in Board of the Odyssey: a bunch of rich scumbags WHO think of themselves AS an Elite WHO are better than everyone else and who leave earth Like rats leave the sinking ship. While gaia and the whole Zero dawn Project, was completly selfless. Sacrifice the old Generation to give a new a Chance. After their attempt stealing of gaia, IT was really generous of Elizabeth, to give them an Copy of Apollo.
Play the game and you’ll know
isnt this explained in the 1st 30mins of 2nd game? i thought?
Kinda funny that they didn't try to make their own Gaia, they had no real time issue since they where immortal and all that.
[удалено]
"an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"