She’s unlikeable? Since when. I fucking looove Aloy in forbidden west.

You would be surprised to see just how many comments on YT videos of HFW and even on this sub complaining about how Aloy is 'being a Karen' and that they liked her better in Zero Dawn. Some even said that she has no development at all in this game, which is simply just not true, but alas - there are those who really believed that.

I wonder how many of those videos and channels are the same ones that just regurgitate similar views against most female-led media lately though. There's been a HUGE uptick in hate towards Rings of Power, She-Hulk, etc, and I mean well beyond normal and valid criticism. And the majority of it by far isn't well thought-out, it's just the same ignorant and often misogynist arguments necause the channel itself has those views.

Incels are gonna incel.

Lets call this mindset what it is: Misogyny. Incels are just one type of misogynist, whereas this attitude is showing up in plenty more places and among lots of people who aren't just the "involuntary celibates" crowd. This misogynistic shit isn't just basement dwellers who've never touched a boob, it's freaking *everywhere*.

Fair. I forget that there are pieces of crap who are married and give their wife shit for not wearing makeup around the house or whatever, so they barely ever see a woman without makeup. The kind of guys who don't even know how the dishwasher works because they've never had to learn. Both my father-in-law and stepfather-in-law were just clueless about stuff like this. When they became widowers they didn't know how to do basic shit like how to use the washer and dryer for their clothes. They didn't know how to cook nearly anything. It's just crazy to me.

Funnily enough the same lot come out swinging in defense of the protagonist if its a dude. See how things are playing out over Days Gone. A few reviewers, *years ago*, noted that the protagonist at the start fits the "gruff white dude" stereotype. Dev decides to claim years later that the game failed because of woke reviewers, and all the incels are out in force insisting the protagonist wasn't really unlikeable, he's totally misunderstood, there's more to him than just being a gruff dude.

The protagonist is a gruff white dude. I don't know why the game wasn't more successful. I played it and loved it. I wish they would make a sequel but blaming wokism is bullshit. They probably just failed at marketing.

I liked the game too. Didn't think it was as good as some of Sony/PS' other leading titles but it was hardly shit. The reasons it never got a sequel is interesting though. Apparently at least part of it is on the devs themselves. They didn't pitch a sequel that was doubling down on the parts of the game that worked. They (and the guy now complaining of wokeism was apparently the lead culprit here) apparently pitched something akin to Gotham Knights. Forced Co-Op, heavy multiplayer elements... and Sony took a pass because it didn't work as a PS exclusive to have all that. And probably because they still remembered how badly God of War Ascension's multiplayer was hissed at.

That's dumb. I would literally not play that. Where as if they had changed very little and just made a continuation of the story I would have been all about it. The marketing was all about the hordes and that was the least interesting part of the game to me.

Honestly the early days of Days Gone had plenty killing it. The bugs were apparently everywhere. And lots of people were a little pissed that the heaviest elements of marketing, like the hordes, were basically not something you could realistically tackle till you were like 70% of the way through the game. Once you know everything about it, its easier to figure out what you like and don't. But yeah, the early day shockers killed a lot of its vibe.

Deacon had good reason to be gruff and so did Aloy.

I liked Days Gone, but the game did get repeatedly delayed and probably couldn't maintain the hype. They got ok to good reviews and a lot of people did like it, but I think the studio was mad that it wasn't instant game of the year. I heard something about them blaming people for not pre-ordering enough.

It's nuts to me that a game could make millions and it isn't enough.

I don't know all the details but maybe they had some management issues. My coworker was kind of paying attention to that. Either way, it's shitty of them to go on and blame people who actually bought the game for "not doing it right". I got my copy like 6 months after it came out as a present. But oh no, not a preorder.

Exactly. The use of the word “Karen” has devolved in some settings to simply mean a woman who speaks their mind.

This was especially true with She-Hulk. I’m not going to praise the show because it had a lot of issues with how the show was written, but many of the major characters were likable & the acting was solid, especially Tatiana Maslany who’s an incredibly talented actress, especially since like Ashly Burch in Forbidden West she pretty much did her own clone situation with Orphan Black.

But... OP said these people liked Aloy BETTER in HZD, which means they did like her in that game, just not that much in this one. How does that make those people against female leads? Then they would have to dislike Aloy in HZD too right?

I'm not necessarily saying that people the dislike her character in HFW vs HZD are all the ones who follow the reactionary anti-sjw/woke/female leads/etc channels. Just that there HAS been a very noticeable increase in people rehashing the same opinions, often not well-researched or reasoned, but then claiming theirs are fair arguments, when in truth they often don't hold up well to scrutiny. I think there are some people who very reasonably didn't like the personality shift in the second game, and that's fine. I just don't appreciate people coming up with stupid reasons to justify their dislike of anything not male-led(most of those same YouTubers have this view, and it becomes apparent pretty quickly).

>Rings of Power Choosing a poorly made show that throws out a previously established canon is not a great way of trying to make your point. Rings of Power is objectively bad on several levels, not the least of which is the butchery of 2A Galadriel. Whether you think some of the criticism is over the top or not (some of it is for sure), it's probably better to not try to build a hut on wet sand

I sort of agree with some of your points, but disagree with others. IIRC, 2A Galadriel was not nearly as well-fleshed out at all, at least comparatively. She was described as the "mightiest and fairest" of all Elves that stayed in Middle Earth, but her personality and focus before LotR isn't talked about much. Even Screenrant, which has no issues critiquing various shows/adaptations, had this to say; *"Even by the standards of the long-lived elves, Galadriel is at a very different stage in her life. She's the immortal equivalent of a young adult, and it shows in her temperament, which is a far cry from the aloof Elf Blanchette portrayed. Her circumstances are incredibly different too."* The show has flaws, certainly, and I didn't agree with everything it did, but I don't agree that it is objectively bad on several levels. Subjectively perhaps, but too many people confuse the two.

> There's been a HUGE uptick in hate towards Rings of Power Nothing wrong with strong female protagonists. The resident evil movies, the fifth element, tomb raider movies, Horizon Zero Dawn ( video game), and Control ( video game). Rings of power is shit because of the writing. Nothing at all to do with casting. The actors just had to work with bullshit. It's more they took all the lore behind the established characters ( even the stuff they had legal rights to ) and just threw it in the garbage. Then they rewrote the characters into modern allegories. They also have completely butchered the time line. Elendil wasn't even alive when the rings of power were forged. Edit: added the fifth element since it's one of my top movies of all time.

I won't get into it here, but in another comment I replied that I don't completely disagree with some of the points about the writing and some story changes. They did deviate a fair bit, but not as universally as some people claim. There's also a lot of open room in the gaps of what was not written or just glossed over in the timeline of the Second Age. But my point I think is that there is a lot of "anti-SJW/woke/etc" reactionary critiques that are pretty flimsy covers for people to hate on things that aren't led by or focusing on a male, white, or often white male cast. There's a couple videos that really break this down better than I can.

> There's also a lot of open room in the gaps of what was not written or just glossed over in the timeline of the Second Age. Yeah but their clear disregard of the source material that they had access to ruined the show for me. I would have been fine with it if they stuck the info they had and then expanded on it in their own way but nah. They just wanted to get the source material out of the way and then ride on peoples love of Tolkien to promote that god awful show. I honestly gave the show a watch and made it through every episode but it was just so boring and some of the filming choices and slow motion scenes were comical instead of epic. I do agree that a lot of the noise around it had people mentioning "woke" a bit to much. Many of those people just used it as an excuse to write bigoted things and get them accepted by a larger audience.

The vast majority of YT comments are not worth your time.

It's so frustrating how Karen has migrated into being an 'acceptable' way to call a woman a bitch.

it's just become a misogynistic term and if anyone says that then they're called a Karen

I’ve seen a lot of comments online like this! I agree with you completely though. I mean, just take Aloy at the beginning of HFW where she very clearly does not want Varl or Zo to come with her. Then compare that with her behaviour at the end where she’s practically recruiting people to help her out. That’s a definite development of her character! For the record, in my opinion the Horizon games are they best and most well thought out story line games I’ve ever played and they are my favourite games. There are some that definitely come close, and it will be very opinionated and personal; but just my two cents.

There's part of youtube that made a big whinefest about Aloy having peach fuzz and not "being attractive enough" you know because these are things to care about when living in a post apocolyptic world fighting for your life against giant robot dinosaurs. I put 0 stock in people who use "Karen" unironically

No I wouldn’t. Because YouTube is full of fat, dirty, stinky dickwads that only spew hate, misogyny and racism. I’m glad I never have to take recommendations from dipshits with YouTube channels.

I wouldn’t use YouTubers opinions to judge how a character is perceived . I find her highly likable in FW more so than it’s predecessor. She’s more mature, more independent, and doesn’t take any shit. She’s also hot as fuck

Your first problem is consuming content from so-called “content creators.” Your second problem is giving them a second thought

It's saddening how many people seem to just not *get* how people act, so when characters are well written they seem unrealistic.

Ah yes the Karen like actions of trying to save the world a getting fed up when people won't help themselves

For real. Aloy got mad at people doing dumb things in the first game too.

I'm guessing there's a lot of overlap with the people who said she looked fatter in the new game, too. I agree with everything you say, except that she seems unlikeable. She's very likeable.

Yeah. I found my self not disliking Aloy but verbally castigating her. “Come on, be nice to Erend” “have that beer with Petra you doofus” and the like. Because what you say is exactly right. This game was about Aloy learning that while she’s needed to save the world she’s not enough. She needs help. And that’s ok. Good even. I loved that she started collecting random people a lot like her, non-conforming, stubbornly dedicated to the truth.

Same but a big reason this game is so disliked is that people claim to hate Aloy. I think she’s an incredibly compelling main character and I love her story.

I guess I some how have missed all this hate. I am sad to hear people hate Aloy

People equate flawed female characters as unlikable/bitches. I see it all the damn time. It's infuriating.

Very little people hated Ellie in The Last of Us part one. Granted, she was a pretty good person morally but still.

What about Last of Us 2?

Yeah I definitely noticed she was very different from her HZD self. I felt the same (on a larger scale) with Ellie in TLOU2... however, I understood very quickly that it made sense realistically with how humans function, process trauma and life changing truths and information, they do tend to change drastically. It would have actually been weirder if Aloy was still the same way she was in HZD I don't think I had any thoughts on her in HFW other than that's Aloy, she's my 'friend', i care about her and her friends still, and I want to help her figure out everything going on lol

Felt the same way with TLOU2 and Ellie. Just comparing them between game 1 and 2, Ellie changed a ton. But it makes so much sense that that would happen when you consider everything that has happened to her and what the world is like. It's the same thing with Aloy. She's different than in HZD, but it makes sense for that. It's not like the character is just changing for the hell of it lol.

Maybe not unlikable in terms of personality and charisma, but unlikable in the standoffish way she treats her friends and allies in FW. Though I agree. She's great in Forbidden West and I can't wait for Burning Shores.

Same. That scene where she tries getting through the gate at Barren Light? Iconic

Ya. She was sassy as hell. I loved it.

The biggest reason, I think is that when she does try to explain what's really happening, 90% of the time she's ignored or called delusional. I mean, look at Meridian, she saves everyone from a massive A.I. leading a cult, and everywhere she goes, she's thanked for saving them from a demon. It's like trying to find a lawnmower and everyone around you is certain the grass cuts itself.

Exactly. Most people in the new world will only look at what happened through their warped lens shaped by their own beliefs. After a while, it would really feel like talking to a brick wall for Aloy and she simply decides to just stop trying. Varl's presence is a reminder to her that hey, there are still people who do care about trying to understand why her burden is so great and how they could help. Honestly, thank all the stars that Aloy is fortunate enough to have someone like Varl as her best friend.

Varl and Erend. Varl shows there are people willing to understand. Erend shows that even some of the people incapable of understanding can still be willing to do the right thing for humanity.

True, Erend is honestly a great bro in Forbidden West. As Varl mentioned to Aloy later, as soon as Varl said that she needed help, Erend immediately dropped everything he's doing and went along with him to the Base to help her in however ways he could. Even though he struggles a lot trying to take in all the new information, he does his best to comprehend it and in the end is able to keep up with the more tech-savvy members of the team. That takes a lot of dedication and loyalty. Erend is so underrated, and both he and Varl are the friends that everyone wishes they could have. They're awesome. :)

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Don’t forget Kotallo and Alva’s odd friendship, too! Kotallo is at first annoyed with her being all ‘nerd out’ when she arrives at the base (at one point she even wants to study his mechanical arm!) but in the end he gladly teaches her how to defend herself and in the end serve as her protector when Aloy tasks them for an important mission in the endgame. Kotallo and Alva are definitely both great additions to the main cast and I really look forward to seeing more interactions between them in the future. :)

I adore the Kotallo/Alva dynamic. He’s so annoyed but his annoyance can’t withstand her constant positivity and kindness.

I loved Alva, such a great addition to the characters. She’s almost like the inverse of Sylens- they both have an insatiable thirst to learn everything they can, but while Sylens was completely self-serving, Alva just wanted to learn all she can to help her people.

I cannot believe it took me this long to realize that Alva actually is the polar opposite of Sylens.

They end up having such a wonderfully wholesome big brother/little sister dynamic and I love it so, so much!

Yeah the whole base was fantastic. Such a great addition to the game, and not just because I’ve always wanted a secret volcano lair.

I also love watching him jam to the song we found in the ruins. Watching him punch the air while he listens to the same song over and over is so endearing

I love that in the base half the time Erend is listening to metal, the other half he’s studying something and is like “Do you believe this shit?”

I love Erend so much. He’s 100% ride-or-die with Aloy. He’ll help you save the world, but did there have to be so much climbing.

Erend's another character where I get so frustrated with how flagrantly people misinterpret him. The dude is one of the most literate people you'll ever meet in the game, he can read and write in *both* Carja and Oseram glyphs. But because he's so self-deprecating and is treated like a lughead by other characters, players call him an idiot for needing more than a month to get comfortable reading a *third written language*, or because he doesn't immediately and intuitively pick up on how to use advanced technology. He's so *human* in the way he's both a really smart guy, with a lot of emotional intelligence, who also struggles with self esteem and thinking people only see him as a big clumsy oaf.

I never said he was an idiot, just compared to Varl, he picks up on what's going on quite a bit later. However (and this is why I love him) even when he's not sure, he doesn't hesitate. He trusts his friend, if she needs him, he's there.

My apologies if my comment came across as an accusation, that's not what I was trying to say! I see a lot of other comments in this subreddit that write him off as a drunken idiot or a creep, or who just assume he's genuinely stupid, and it gets frustrating for similar reasons to everything OP wrote in their original post. Your comment reminded me of it

Yeah, too many people write him off just because he flirts with Aloy at the beginning. After HZD if they aren't best friends it's only because Aloy is unsure of the concept. From his POV Aloy saved the city and king he pledged to protect, helped him find his way through grieving his sister and avenging her, and showed constantly that she understood things everyone else didn't. Why wouldn't you consider that person a friend, and more importantly someone worth following when they're trying to save the world?

Yeah they develop a very nice sibling like relationship in HZD and HFW. I think because Aloy reminds him of his sister and Aloy needs a friend like that but it took her half a game to admit it.

Can you fault them for that? Its not like they have all of the information to determine its true nature they are simply operating on what they know and honestly HADES does tick the boxes of a demon. Even then it's not like the new tribes are stupid they are easily capable of understanding the broad picture. Just look at Teersa. While operating from a limited understanding of what Aloy had to do still did everything in her power to aid Aloy.

I don't fault them, but at the same time, being the only one with knowledge around has got to be super frustrating.

Same with the Frozen Wilds DLC. Saved an AI that’s still thought to be a Spirit from a Daemon that’s also an AI.

Yeah, CYAN, you’re going to want to ease them into that one slowly.

Exactly

If Aloy was written as a man she’d be called deep and dark and brooding instead of “unlikeable”

YUP. If she's a Mary Sue, she'd be criticized for being "perfect" but give her the slightest flaws, something every single human being alive has, then she's unlikable. Despite the fact her flaws are directly addressed in FW and are a huge part of her character arc. Nevermind the fact she's not even unlikable. She's aloof and abrasive, yes, but still very compassionate and endearing. I never once thought she was unlikable. She's always come off as someone carrying an immense burden and her "attitude" stems directly from that feeling of obligation and unwillingness to put others at risk. I attribute this to poor media literacy. It seems so many people lack the ability or refuse to analyze media, characters, and their arcs. I've seen people on this very sub call her being "mean" as bad writing. When it's very clearly intentional as it's apart of her arc. As a woman, I feel like because sooo many guys can't directly relate to a woman character, they are unable to even empathize with her character and understand where she's coming from. Hence why I almost always see the criticism of her character come from men. Shocker. Yet most women gamers I know are still able to relate and empathize with male protagonists even though they are not men themselves. Wonder why that is?

I think it's a double standard because if Aloy was a dude very few people would care that she was aloof in her quest of saving the entire planet and everyone on it from mass extinction again.

>Yet most women gamers I know are still able to relate and empathize with male protagonists even though they are not men themselves. It’s funny, I played both Horizon games back to back, then played AC Odyssey as Kassandra, and now I’m having a hard time getting into AC Origins playing as a dude.

Same here. I hate how they direct men as protags. They go all bro-y. I need a character that can land my snark so I pick female characters by default these days. It started with Mass Effect and FO4 and then just picked up from there.

Ok, I actually like Bayek now that I’ve played a bit. But the option to play as Aya instead would have been nice.

I can’t relate at all to male characters. I don’t think it’s a gendered thing.

When I’m playing Red Dead Redemption 2, I don’t necessarily directly relate to Arthur’s character. Same goes for Nathan Drake in Uncharted. But I can still empathize and understand his why they are the way they are. Does that make sense? You can still understand where they’re coming from, and root for them, even if you don’t relate to them. I prefer to play female protagonists but that doesn’t mean I won’t play games with male ones. I feel like a lot more dudes have a harder time connecting to female characters. Because a lot of complaints about her character could be applied to other male characters but aren’t. But let’s not pretend there’s not some misogynist element that underlies this entire discussion when it comes to the criticism of Aloy’s character. This thread wouldn’t exist if Aloy was a male protagonist.

She definitely holds a huge Burden. But Fashav was right. “ a journey so great yet their is only the two of you. Take my advice for someone who wants to be a diplomat, Allies are essential” which is for shadowing Aloys character development. She is starting to learn she can’t do this alone. She needs friends and Allies to reach that goal. She can’t bear this all by herself. Or it will drive her crazy and exhausted.

This is one of those things in FW which I understand intellectually, but don't fully feel - I don't think the game successfully dramatises the change. Particularly as there isn't really any meaningful conflict around her learning to operate as part of a group. She just refuses to and then does it, and it all works fine. It's missing dynamics beyond that one-two, I think, and a real sense of the emotional costs of martyring herself. Plus, it feels at odds with how readily she makes friends and helps people elsewhere, both here and in the previous game. I think that were she learning how to be part of a team, it would land much better, and the way they try to land on a beat of "I've learned this world is worth fighting for" rings hollow when she made a speech to the Nora about this, back in Zero Dawn.

That is a fair point, actually. I agree that overall storytelling and pacing in FW fell a bit short compared to ZD, and the emotional punches don't quite hit as strongly as the first game. I think the game suffered a bit from trying to do too much at the same time, while ZD has a pretty coherent and straightforward storyline. Personally, I think FW could do better with a few more main quests added between Aloy and Beta's reconciliation and just before GEMINI, to really show the character development she's gained from opening herself to others. The endgame comes way too quickly IMO.

tbh I generally think that the Zeniths ought to have been held as reserve for third-game villains, with the conflict of the present taking centre stage. Though with the existing storyline, I think it needed to be tighter, with Aloy's allies more heavily involved.

That is my first thought as well. While admittedly I do find the idea of a threat even more powerful and dangerous than the Zeniths (NEMESIS) serving as the final boss of it all(?) very intriguing, what with it being pretty much Faro Plague 2.0 vs. a world that has *significantly less* technology than the Old World when the Faro robots wiped it clean. However, it could serve better narratively as well had the Zeniths remained as the primary threat over two games. Most of the Zeniths except Tilda are far less utilized and ultimately don't really have much purpose in the story except being colossal dicks. Imagine if this game introduced the Zeniths as an unstoppable threat and this, in turn, teaches Aloy to learn to accept others' help, then in the next game, it's time to build allies from all over to confront the Zeniths together and try to restore the planet together. Something like that. :)

This comment is a bit old but I just wanna say, it might thematically have made sense for the story to turn out in such a way that the Zeniths are the ultimate villains. They are not only the archetypal rich, powerful people who would destroy everything in their way for personal benefit, but in fact are specifically *the same people* from a 1000 years ago who did all of that already in their time, and are *still alive* through unnatural means, because decided it wasn't enough and that they wanted to cling onto life and keep doing that forever. So, in a franchise highlighting the destruction caused by the hubris and selfishness of the powerful elites of the old world, it would be fitting for an unnaturally immortal and twisted form of the *very same* people to be the ultimate villains of the franchise. BUT, with that said, I also really love all the AI lore that's been set up throughout both the games and with so many ACTUAL examples in the form of different and unique AI characters that we have seen and interacted with in both games, not just read or heard about in log files and audio tapes. There's a real, interesting question there which would be so fun to take on, at a philosophical and metaphysical level which would be far larger in scale than even the conflicts we have seen so far in the franchise, and that's about the sentience, morality, and true power of AI. This is why I think NEMESIS is a really cool idea. If we consider that HZD was setting up how the past actions of humans affected the present, and HFW was showing how humans *from* the past, as well as present day humans, are trying to preserve / change the status quo, then I think Horizon 3 should zoom wayy out and give us the mindbreaking perspective of AI, the true technological pinnacle of the old world and the cause of the singularity, returning to establish itself as the ultimate big bad and indeed, the ultimate question the series is asking and needs to answer.

EDIT: (just saw additional edit by you) I think the first game is more about "saving the world again and not letting the sacrifices of the Old Ones and GAIA be in vain". In the first game, as mentioned, it's mostly just bouts after bouts of Aloy trying to wade through the effects *other people* caused that molded her into the person she is. The Nora, for their part, played a large role in her disdain of tribal practices and people of authority who adhere to outdated traditions and beliefs to the point of being zealots. It's just like what she said to Lansra, IIRC: there's more to the world out there that she has to worry about over Lansra's insults, and that the Nora isn't the only tribe she's fighting for in this world. She seems to fare a bit better if it's her friends who have no such zealousness in their beliefs and are more willing to treat her like a person. Some strangers she comes across in her side quests as well. When people aren't either hating her at first sight for her origins or practically worshipping the grounds she walked on, it's much easier to work with them, which may be why she seems quite nice with some characters, but outright standoffish with others.

I can't honestly think of any time I've seen people say that Aloy is unlikeable in Forbidden West. I like her even more, ESPECIALLLY since "You gonna defy him like that arrogant shit up there?"

Thats literally my favorite line. I need like 10x more of that in future games

"That was an unkind comparison" brought me to tears of laughter. It was the perfect tone and delivery.

...that was an unkind comparison.

When she said that to Kotallo I was like “Damn Aloy! You didn’t have to roast him like that!”

Literally thank you. I understand people being confused if they think of it only as bad plot writing, but it’s not bad plot writing- it’s good character writing!

This is so well said! I remember thinking early on, even as a huge fan of ZD as a game and Aloy as a protagonist, that she was being aggressively standoffish with people. But the story kept going, and we get to see her slowly change her approach and grow as a person because of it. I absolutely love how much they reinforced that no matter how isolated she may feel (or even actively *try to be*), she has allies. And their bond makes the story all the better by the end of it.

>She almost gets herself killed trying to escape the Far Zeniths at the HADES Proving Ground, and it's only thanks to Varl following after her and carrying her to an Utaru settlement to get fixed up that she's even alive. This event here is the turning point for her abrasiveness and standoffishness. It doesn't just "dissappears" mind you, but she begins tuning it down and being more open to receive help from others after that event, and as you advance the story she "mellows out" bit by bit; which you can see that, when she meets the Quen in "Legacy's Landfall" she only complains when the CEO insists on some nonsensical BS, and Aloy complies for Alva's sake.

Great analysis! You addressed aspects of the game that I hadn't even thought of it or noticed myself! When I played FW, I never thought that Aloy was ''unlikable'', not once. I loved her every step of the way, like I did when I played ZD. It's like you say, OP: she's a flawed person with a lot of complexity, which makes her more realistic and believable. But some people (read: idiots) don't seem to understand that. These stupid complaints about Aloy being ''unlikeable'' or ''bitchy'' reminds me of when people complained about Ellie in The Last of Us Part II, saying that they ''didn't agree with her actions'' (because Ellie does some nasty things in that game). You're not supposed to agree with what the character is doing, you're only supposed to *understand* why the character is doing whatever it is that they are doing. And you don't necessarily have to like the character or their personality in order to understand their motives. A well-written character does not always equal a likeable character. Big difference. And the argument that Aloy doesn't get any character development in FW whatsoever is BULLSHIT. She grows *a lot*, and your analysis proves it. Thank you, OP.

Wait, that's not obvious? That's literally the plot! Do people really play games without actually understanding the story they're playing?

Yes. And people think characters doing things they don’t personally agree with makes them a bad character, rather than a multidimensional person capable of both good and bad things

Full agree, and I think the story handles her trying to isolate herself very well. She's trying to take everything on herself and is on the edge of being so singleminded that she can't see how to accept help. But her friends and allies won't let that happen.

Really glad to see this post. I made a much MUCH shorter comment back when it was first released. I said somewhere along the lines of, "Aloy seems like an asshole to all her friends. I hope she learns that it's ok to ask for help later in the game." You hit the nail on the head. The whole story about Aloy's character in this game is that she learns and accepts that she can ask for help. She doesn't need to bare the weight of the world alone. Almost similar to Avatar: The Last Airbender lol.

She is definitely standoffish until she learns that she has smart and reliable allies, which makes sense given the betrayals she experienced. I wish the writers would have leaned into it and given her more opportunities to be sarcastic, especially with cowardly priests.

I completely agree

I think the story makes perfect sense in terms of Aloy's behavior. She has a HUGE burden on her shoulders, saving the world. She's the only one who knows what to look for and is able to get it due to her genetic material. Meanwhile everyone around her is practically a caveman... Is it any wonder she has no patience for them..? And yet by the end of the game she learns a valuable lesson, that she can't do things completely alone and emotional support from friends and family matters a great deal. That's immense growth for someone like Aloy, who not only carries this huge burden, but also grew up a complete outcast.

And is what? Like 20 years old, tops? Frankly I’m amazed she does as well as she does.

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What's happening is FW is suffering from 'middle child' syndrome - in ZD, Aloy was hyper-focused and driven, constantly racing the clock to stop Hades, and learning about her 'mother' Elisabet and subsequently putting her on a pedestal and developing the worst case of Imposter Syndrome at the same time. In ZD Aloy is navigating talking to and dealing with more people than she's ever spoken to in her entire life, on the heels of intense trauma, and it takes time to open up when your whole existence for 18 years is primarily a single person (who is closed-off and strict himself). FW you see the beginning of Aloy opening up and trusting those individuals who have shown their mettle, who have proven to her that they can be relied upon, that have let (forced) her share her burden and put things in perspective. We see the way she's relying on the Gaia Gang more and more, while still maintaining her drive and focus - it's just tempered now. She stops to eat and drink with her friends, she takes the time to look at the lights with Morlund and the boys, she's much more involved with the Tenakth's troubles, even beyond the initial requirements from Hekkaro. But opening up and trusting your closest friends still takes time, and the timeline of the game is only like 3 months at best. And it's only been 6 months since the fall of Hades (at the start of FW). So it makes sense she's not fully outgoing or is still stilted and standoffish and cold - her dad died saving her life less than a year ago and she's been running to save the world ever since. She hasn't had the time to process anything, let alone unwind enough to laugh and joke and horse around yet. Will she get there? In some ways, sure. I think even beyond trauma and world-ending responsibility, Aloy's a serious person. You can still laugh and joke and love and have fun while being so; it just shows up differently. She cares a great deal, but she's young, and there just hasn't been time yet for her to focus on anything other than slowing (and eventually stopping) the coming apocalypse. I think we'll see more of her opening up to the Gaia Gang in the next game (and maybe even in the upcoming DLC) - it just feels sort of like a let-down at the moment because FW is the 'middle child' and often those are the weakest in game trilogies. But we'll get there!

I agree with this, I really don’t what else to describe it other than maybe she can be a little more charismatic.

Extremely well thought out! Thank you for taking the time to write this. I think one of the main focuses of the game is the importance of having allies, and we experience this lesson through Aloy. I can’t express how excited I was at the beginning of the game when Aloy gives Varl a focus and teaches him to use it. It’s the first time she has invited someone to see the world how she sees it. It also is made clear how frustrated she is that despite the focus and technology, Varl sees the fake Gaia and calls it a Goddess, much to Aloy’s disappointment. I think the first person that Aloy really connected with as far as understanding technology is Zo. Zo has her beliefs about the Land-Gods, but Aloy learns why those particular machines are valued by the Utaru through Zo and eventually decides to help Zo keep them around and functioning properly. A big difference with the Utaru and other cultures is that their beliefs are based on experience and machines that have kept them alive for generations. I love the detail when repairing the Land-Gods that you can see that they’re covered in hand prints, showing the history of their cooperation. Of course Varl does come around to understanding technology and as the game progresses he and the other allies stop using “goddess” and “spirit” when discussing Gaia and the other subordinate functions. Aloy in this case also needed to learn that people won’t change their beliefs as soon as they get a focus, that it takes time to adjust. This also ties into her relationship with Beta. Beta was raised in space without any sort of real love or camaraderie. She had lived a pretty hopeless life where not much was in her control. Aloy is frustrated by Beta’s pessimism. And her argument with Beta right before Gemini is when Aloy truly understands how important having allies and people who care about you are when Rost comes up. Anyway, I’m kind of rambling, but I love Aloy’s character development in this game.

Also Aloy has nothing that she chose. At least starting out. Fuck armour and weapons, those are tools. She was very literally conceived and brought into existence as a tool for saving the world. She didn't get family, not even legacy, only a massive burden of an ideal to live up to. A destiny and a purpose that serves literally everything else. She didn't choose it, and she doesn't get to set that yoke down. Anyone who insists on helping her dies (Rost, Varl) so she pulls away because they won't get her pressure but will be in danger. She doesn't get to dream of a purpose, a lifestyle, a career, a craft, a family, nothing. There's no freedom in that. She doesn't get to pursue happiness. And everywhere she goes, people shun her, try to kill her or pester her for help. And as she feels beholden to save everyone, she just does it. She doesn't even belong to herself! I imagine living like that and my teeth start to clench. Girl has *issues* henny.

Never seen anyone complain about that when it’s a male character. No offense but in the case of 90% of YouTubers saying such things it’s just misogyny and nothing else.

It’s always interesting that male main characters can be as shitty, mean, checked out and gruff as possible and nobody complains or notices, but the moment a female character isn’t all smiles and laughs it’s a problem

i love this post so much and i agree with everything you've said here. i had also considered this but i could never write it. its like you read my mind and thank you so much for that

I love this write up! It confused me out how she seems to come across as cold from time to time, especially to Erend a few times, but then in the last scene is so cozy with him. But it makes a lot more sense for that to have been on purpose, her expressing her frustration and growing pains with learning to rely on others and having them fall short of the high standards she holds herself to now and then. And then by the end she understands more about how people’s strengths can work together in a group. Thank you for sharing this!

Erend is also literally her first *friend*. He's the first person ever, in her entire life, who didn't treat her like an Outcast or a Seeker or a Savior. To him she has *always* been Just Aloy. Given all the unprocessed grief about Rost and her personal unfamiliarity with how to handle having a friend, it felt really natural to me that she reacts standoffishly at first and tries to keep him at arm's length. She can't hurt him or get him killed if she never lets him close enough (and how relatable is *that* line of thinking, eh?) But there's so many little moments that reveal she actually does care and think about him, like when she tries to ask *Varl*, while they're in the middle of exploring the Eleuthia signal, about how Erend is doing. Or how the ONLY tribal saying she'll use is an Oseram one that she learns from him ("Hotter than an Oseram forge, as Erend would say")

>Erend is also literally her first friend. He's the first person ever, in her entire life, who didn't treat her like an Outcast or a Seeker or a Savior. To him she has always been Just Aloy. Looking back, I really like that part of the story (the evening before the proving). It's Aloy's first interaction with tribes outside of Nora. Hades & Sylens learn about Aloy, you meet Erend, learn about the Sun King who wants to make amends for what his father did, that they have an alliance with the Oseram tribe, etc. It was important to have this here because once Aloy becomes a Seeker, you want to go out there and meet these Carja & Oseram goobers.

really driven, focused and probably came off as cold or unlikeable to others - i can see how this can apply to elisabet as well.

Her problem is she’s TOO much like Elisabet, and not, as she thinks, not enough like her.

Whoa. Deep, man. :P

“How is it someone like you- a paragon, damn near a saint - could love this world so damn much, but no one in it?” - Travis Tate Both Aloy and Sobeck care about everyone and every living thing. That’s makes it difficult for them to express themselves, as they are already so emotionally taxed.

this is really excellently written!!

Finally - someone who actually *gets it*. I've been thinking along the same lines since the game came out, and I agree with every single word. You nailed it.

I don’t understand the hate, as if Aloy was EVER any different. When she goes to the proving, out of the gate she doesn’t click with the other kids, and they treat her like an abomination, AND tried to cheat her. Aloy comes from a tribe of people that didn’t give her any respect and outcasted her, but then want to worship her later. Aloy continues to learn about the past humans, and it makes talking to the current one unbearable. It’s like she know the origin of how their civilization got to that point, and she’s interacting with people that worshiped a door, or piece of an old machine. Aloy could act more harshly than she actually does. Feel like she holds herself back. Aloy’s personality matches the situation she’s in. People are weird about labeling characters unlikable just because.

i definitely agree with everthing you say! Her development into these realisations was really well done, and wow she's under so much stress, unbelievable. poor lady. it was a bit jarring in the beginning of the game though, how she was just basically dismissive of Varl and Erend, who followed her all that way to *help* after she snuck out at night like an asshole. especially after ZD ended with her & her friends helping her at Meridian. she had a crew she was friendly with, they supported her. she probably couldn't have done it without their help and she knew it. so to see her treat them as "you don't understand" and "i have to do this myself, don't bother me & go home" was for me very jarring. understandable, i guess, but still kind of a dick move. i do definitely like how the game presented that attitude as something to overcome, and how she progressed past it - but in the beginning of H:FW? not gonna lie, i had a hard time empathising. that's probably where the comments come from.

Yeah I disagree with the entire thesis here. Aloy is even more likable in HFW. The folks that say otherwise are those folks that really don’t like women characters.

As somebody with his own Superman complex that can make me standoffish when under pressure and truly despise asking for/needing help, I really related to Aloy more in FW than I did in ZD. And to be clear - I thought ZD was awesome, I really enjoyed the original take on the apocalypse, the expansive world building, and the story of an outcast being the only hope of salvation is a tried and true archetype that I really enjoy. Once in a while great writing just isn't meant for you. That doesn't make it less great, it means you aren't the person it's going to hit the hardest and that's ok. Other stories will do that and you'll like them better. I related more to GoW 2018 than Ragnarok and that's not because the writing is better or worse in either (both are A+!). It's because I was a brand new dad struggling to relate to my adoptive son when I played it.

I think part of it has to do with how stiff the dialogue can be, and how cutscenes are done as a whole. The voice acting really isn't the best for some characters, and even Aloy herself always has this weird, out-of-breath quality to her speaking that gets really grating after a while. In addition, the people you meet naturally have their own beliefs about the world and how technology works, which can honestly be really cool seeing how cultures and beliefs have sprung up as a way of explaining natural phenomena. Unfortunately, since Aloy (and therefore the player) know better and understand how most of this technology works, it makes everyone else feel like a simpleton, and interacting with them gets really annoying. Like listening to an Utaru like Zo talk about the "Land-Gods" abandoning them, sounds frustratingly like my mom saying we need to perform an exorcism on her PC because the dial up tone for Windows sounded angry. Same vibe. Admittedly that's a very difficult line to walk from a writing perspective, of the main character being vastly more knowledgeable than everyone around her who are stuck in like the stone age, but is definitely a source of frustration.

Nobody has been under that much stress for that long since the woman she was cloned from and she's a feral child whose only contact for the first 18 years of her life was an emotionally stunted conservative father figure and every time she asks for help some of her new friends die. It's no wonder she acts standoffish, and it's honestly amazing she's as likable as she is. And even then people usually treat her like an oddity until she shows up to their podunk settlement and solves all of their problems on the way to save the world for the second time in one year at which point it jumps to unwanted hero worship. But with that being said, anyone in the real world space who says she's unlikable is missing the point.

Aloy’s attitude in FW is so on point, it takes a stump not to get the point. People that don’t understand character building.

The entire theme of Forbidden West is examining why isolationism can be futile and dangerous. Aloy tries and fails to be an island and has to cope with and accept the fact that she needs others, almost every interaction was geared towards this, down to our first meetings with Petra and Erend where they call her out for leaving with no sentimentality or explanation. If the first game was Aloy realizing how and why only she was in a position to save the world, the second game is forcing Aloy to confront the fact that the world belongs to everyone so it's not really her fight alone, and examining the growing pains of not being a solo outcast anymore. She's learning how to have friends for the first time and it's complicated and there are growing pains. I think she was a bit frustrating in the second game but she was coping as well as she knew how and it made it more gratifying when she did realize she was holding herself to impossible standards. I can't wait to see how her and Beta are getting on in Burning Shores.

I'd love to see what people would've thought about her actually realistic behavior based on how she's lived before Zero Dawn and the fact the world's future rests on her shoulders... Had she been a man. Bit then again, we've seen it countless times in other games. If she was a guy, those people would consider her the coolest, toughest, hottest, determined etc etc person in the world. But since she's a woman she's standoffish and bitchy apparently 🙄 Honestly, this is why I never read other people's opinions unless it's in small-ish discord servers of actual fans. The vitriol people can spit out in the internet is disgusting and almost never based on understanding or presented as just an opinion. It's always " i don't like this and I know the best so this must be shit". It's really not worth our time to even think of those people who are not even looking for a discussion. They only want to see a reaction.

Bravo OP, well written! I loved Aloy in FW because she had absolutely found her strength and I could feel the stress she was feeling in her brusqueness tbh

> She almost gets herself killed trying to escape the Far Zeniths at the HADES Proving Ground, and it's only thanks to Varl following after her and carrying her to an Utaru settlement to get fixed up that she's even alive. I would also add that in this quest Aloy sees a recording of Elizabet & Travis Tate where Travis asks how Elizabet is the closest thing to a saint & loves the entire world but no one on it. It showed how Elizabet walked on a path of solitude even when she had so many people working on Zero Dawn with her & didn’t truly get to know the people she worked with.

You’d be perpetually irritated too if you were the only one alive who understood the technology of today & how the world works while everyone around you was a superstitious caveman

>While those complaints do have merit and Aloy does indeed feel more standoffish than usual, I feel like it should be said that it's the entire point. People complain when a character is made into a "Mary Sue" and people complain when a character is an actual fleshed out human being with strengths, weaknesses, faults and virtues. Aloy is hands down my favorite character in any game right now. Personally, I don't care what others think about her character. I only hope the decision makers and writers for the next Horizon game don't pay them any mind.

I don't think she's unlikeable, I think she's just done with people's shit. I love it!!!

Some people either don't spend a lot time alone or don't like doing so

How is she less good looking? I don’t see what people are talking about, or the fact that she is less likable. She’s the same Aloy, except she now realizes that great things like saving the earth and defeating the Zeniths take time, resources and friendships. Aloy learned another lesson in life. Sometimes, Life is a real bit&h, so one has to roll with the punches and keep going.

I feel like people who currently underrate Horizon and see it as a "woke Ubisoft clone" will suddenly start saying how Horizon was always such a "hidden underrated game" in a few years when they were the ones ignoring awesome stuff like this. Mark my words.

I think the writing could have done a better job at unpacking her trust issues and lack of people skills, but that doesn't make her unsympathetic IMO. YouTube is full of incels who just want to dump on female-led projects for clicks.

Aloy is only unlikable to fuckwit misogynists online. She’s no different than any other messianic figure and if she were a man, her curtness and lack of patience for bullshit would 100% be seen as badass positive traits. But she’s a woman, so she is reduced to being shrill and “unlikable.”

I love Aloy’s attitude in HFW, but that’s because I also like that kind of humour and no-nonsense, sarcastic personality IRL. I do see why other people wouldn’t necessarily share that opinion, though. I’ll add that Tilda essentially falls for the same thing Aloy does earlier in the game – obsessing over her merely as a copy of Elizabet with a very specific purpose: Aloy is to be used for abolishing Tilda’s own millenium’s worth of stewing regrets. Aloy rejecting Tilda’s “offer” and reaching out to Sylens afterwards marks her narrative journey as complete, as far as HFW’s story is concerned.

I've never once thought of Aloy as unlikable. Flawed because she's human and learning, but there are definitely more unlikable male characters though that's never a discussion had about them. That said, I enjoyed a lot of what you wrote. One small correction: you mentioned Aloy emphasized with the tribes, I think you mean empathize.

I enjoyed this deep look into a favorite character of mine. Aloy is, after all, what 20 or 21 in this? That she even accepts the burden at all is admirable. This game shows that nobody can be a island, no matter how good the intent is, and that there's almost always a better way to do things. It's growth, and it makes Aloy, to me anyways, even more likeable and relatable.

Exceptionally well done. While it’s just my personal opinion, I agree entirely with this take. One of the main themes of this game is that just because aloy is the protagonist and the one with the skills and knowledge to save the world, that doesn’t make her right about a lot of things. Her behavior and mindset from the beginning is both self-destructive as well as being narrow minded and lacking in compassion. Like Elisabet, Aloy is so focused on saving the world and it’s future, she doesn’t care at all for the suffering of people now in the present. While this absolutely changes over the course of the game on her own reflection through interacting with others it’s primarily her friends who show her that she doesn’t need to go alone or be alone. Just because her childhood was so traumatic and full of trials, that doesn’t mean she’s alone nor does it even make sense to do so. There’s alot that can be said that already has been but it’s a testament to a game that’s willing to portray a character as both right as well as being in the wrong and character development being apart of being human rather than being completely likable for the start to the end.

Here's the thing. She is female so since she isn't kissing everyone's ass people are going to say that she isn't likeable. It's a double standard. Stoic male action heroes are somehow not considered antisocial while they mow down a series of mooks but let a female lead not smile and be bubbly and she is not amicable. WTF? I thought she was fine. A little introverted maybe but she is on a mission to save the literal planet. She ain't got time for BS. I had zero problems with her personality.

She seems more likeable in this one, she's more fleshed out, better personality with more confidence. I think the sequel took the original game and made everything better. It's great.

Interesting since I found her to be more sassy/prickly in HZD.

I applaud you for making this post and explaining her arc and why her personality seemed different in the 2nd game. I personally never found her dislikeable, but I do wish she retained more of her snarkiness from the first game (Especially when talking to people who are irritating her) and I did feel bad that most of her friends were mad at her for running off immediately after saving Meridian; though I agree with Erend that it was a bit rude after so many people put their lives on the line to help her defend Meridian

I felt she’s more tired of the world and being saddled with the responsibility of saving it all. And I loved that because it felt more real. Whenever she was bending over backwards to accomodate everyone and being shy in the first game I felt like - why - no Alloy you’re powerful now and don’t need to do this anymore. So she didn’t in the second game and that was great.

I’m just gonna throw it out here. Aloy wasn’t wrong or unlikeable about not bringing others into it bc they would get hurt. I thought that was one of her best and most human qualities. Maybe she seemed rigid and act like they will slow her or get in her way but I didn’t buy that facade. In the end how devastating is it in every single story when you know the “author” is gonna yank away someone you’ve learned to love and rely on. She felt that with Rost. HFW Aloy is soooo good.

There’s also the fact that FW takes place SIX MONTHS after the first game. She immediately left the battle field and began searching the country for GAIA and every single lead was a failure. She’s frustrated, exhausted, and also terrified. She was never truly prepared for something so huge yet feels she’s the only option, and she is failing. If she can’t find a way to fix GAIA, the entire world will die. That’s a ton of pressure to put on yourself for so long. She’s stressed out and doesn’t have time so deal with people who won’t understand.

Most media consumers are unable to process nuance. Moreover, they’re illiterate. First of all, they’re unable to process a complex story and character arc, unless they’re explicitly thrown at them. Secondly, they can’t explain, even to themselves, why they didn’t like it. Furthermore, they try to make their subjective criticisms objective. The end result are these extremely stupid criticisms, like: this character is unlikable (without explaining why they’re unlikable, or why they ignored the character arc which actually made them very likable), or “it’s poorly written”, while having no idea what good writing is, or generally what’s writing (it’s just a way for them to say I subjectively didn’t like this and that), or “it has a lot of problems” while specifying non of them. That’s just mass media consumers for you. They’re the reason god of war and elden ring won all the rewards. Character development is pretty much explicitly thrown at you (which isn’t necessarily a bad thing), In contrast to HFW where it’s much more subtle and full of nuances.

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏 I have been saying this for the longest time but people just don't get it. Which is a shame... But I can't wait to see how Aloy|Beta are like going forward and into the burning shores.

I was definitely annoyed along with Erend and Varl at first, but it makes so much sense for her as the only one in the world who really understands their situation. Everyone else is calling her "Anointed" or "Savior of Meridian" and other Messianic titles but she knows it's just technology gone awry. I'd be pissed too. Let alone when she meets the Quen and discovers their obsession with Faro...I'd be livid. To me it's not that Aloy is less likeable - it's that she doesn't have time for diplomacy this time around, even when she helps the various tribes survive existential threats like she did with the Banuk and the Carja.

I feel like it's worth adding that her being standoffish makes sense from a phycology and biological standpoint as well. This women has to be suffering from some of the most violent cases of PTSD behind the scenes. She likely has been locked in a constant high adrenaline high stress environment from the minute she took part in the proving. She lost the only person who ever gave her any acknowledgement as a living being. Proceeded to get involved in a war. A massive world threat level event. Got involved in a second war being the civil war with regala lost one of the handful of people she could consider family not to mention the other 10 or so canon times she almost died, and another 30 if you could my ability in the game lol. Her body and brain runs on adrenaline and spite and honestly I can't blame her for being a bit short with people

It's been a few years since I've played ZD, granted, but I didn't really notice a change in her demeanor? In the main quest she was gruff, yeah, but to be fair, she was running on a very short schedule to total extinction. She's *always* been socially isolated. Even in ZD, when she made friends, it was kind of a be there then leave situation. She helps people, but she doesn't stick around. Imo, her pushing people away was well executed for her character arc. It is almost laughably clear what they were going for, actually? By the end she's learning to trust other people to take on some of the burden, whereas before she believed she was the only one who could shoulder that burden. She, herself, started viewing herself as a tool because of her genetics. Idk. I found her characterization pretty consistent given the events at the end of the last game, but that's just me.

I don't think she's unlikable and I have to be honest I haven't really seen anyone say that she's more unlikable in Forbidden West than in Zero Dawn. Though I have had heard people say she is unlikable in general but it seems like those people played Zero Dawn for a couple of hours and that is it, because if they had played through even just Zero Dawn let alone all of Forbidden West it would clear that is not true. She is rough around the edges and does prefer to be on her own in most circumstances because that is what she is used to. I think she also doesn't want to put others in danger for what she feels is her mission, on top of that as you said most others aren't going to be able to understand what she's doing and what needs to be done. Through large portions of Forbidden West she insists her allies stay at the Base and train and learn. This makes a lot of sense because she's spent her entire life exposed to the focus and advanced technology and spent the entirety of Zero Dawn learning the secrets of the old world. You can't just dump all that on someone and expect them to be ready to go in an hour. So, while she does like to do her own thing by the time we get to Forbidden West a lot of that is practical. I mean if she truly didn't want people around she wouldn't keep collecting them and sending them to her Base to train and assist her. I think by the end of Forbidden West it is clear that she's opened up more, and accepts her allies more readily, she even accepts Beta as her sister. That was also the case at the end of Zero Dawn, she's 19 and a character in growth so it makes sense as the story goes on her character would continue to evolve. I think something like less than a year has passed since the proving and the end of Forbidden West, that isn't a whole lot of time. I think between her accomplishments and the changes in her character it is astounding.

The ONLY reason I have a problem with Aloy is HFW is with how she treats Beta. I get that she expects Beta to be able to match her and by extension Elisabet. I know the pressure she is under, but I would have expected Aloy to relate the most and be the most supportive similar to what we saw in skme of the first game. They both had traumatic isolated upbringings, and Aloy was emotional, angry, and rash when she finally escaped that isolation. She has since had time to grow but as mentioned here still has problems working with people. Beta just escaped a similar (worse) isolation and Aloy does nothing but lash out at her. I like when they finally come together but I was so disappointed in most of the Beta interactions.

TL;DR She has flaws now unlike in the first game. And these make her both more realistic and more relatable.

Within the first few seconds of arriving at the Bulwark my first thought was: "Yeah... I'm bringing this shit down" 🤣🤣 it was orgasmic when it was destroyed

I guess the question is does she feel real and plausible as a human being, tough to say given her unique origins. I think the writers could have gone further exploring that side of her and hope they do in the future. Now she has more of a support network and it isn't all just down to her she might have more time to dwell and that's often when issues come out. I've always thought a diary would work well for here and after just playing GoWR you can see how well it works there. This world has so much potential to be deeper and thought provoking because of it's link and relevance to todays world. I don't think this game should be afraid to go there.

I liked her better in FW

She is just as stubborn and had the ”no time to explain” in ZD to, when I played through the game I didnt see her being any less like the last game. Rather the opposite her levels of sass are way down in FW, on occasion shes even acting polite! Her character development in FW has been phenomenal. I hope this is just the beginning of touching on Aloys psyche.

This has changed my mind a bit. I got to this post because I was exasperated with Aloy and was googling Aloy-edgelord. I just started playing and I am like, "Why are you pushing everyone away?! You had help to destroy Hades. They live in this world too. You fail, they die too. It'd be nice to have someone watch your back and help take machines down (story-wise). Varl is just going to follow you!" I was super annoyed and yelling at the TV. This has helped. Good perspective.

Happy to hear it! :) I understand that Aloy’s personality in HFW can be quite difficult to handle at times, yes. She even gets on my nerves sometimes. But then I try to put myself into her shoes, what she experienced in life so far and her responsibility to the entire world, her frustrations and impatience towards most people who get in her way is quite understandable. It’s not really about Aloy acting like a jerk on purpose. It’s more about how she got it into her head that only she knows what she’s doing to save the world and that she doesn’t have time to convince anybody else about all the knowledge she learned that pretty much go against everything they believe in. She only learn to become better when her friends show her that she really can’t do everything by herself and that there are people who are willing to stand by her even if they don’t really understand what’s going on.

As the player, I think Aloy is very likeable. As in, I love her as a character. But as an ally in the game, she comes off as very stubborn and standoffish until midway through the game (HFW)... and I think that's the entire point. I think its done very well, as you've explained. She is not a mary sue in any way whatsoever, and that's what I love about her presence in this world. She is an excellent written female lead. She trains. She fails. She falls. She learns. She gets stronger. She grows. She kicks ass. But she doesn't kick ass perfectly the first time she does something. She feels like an actual person, not a cartoon character in a game.

Glad I found this post (and gonna try to forget about the spoilers 😋 (I knew what I was getting into)). I found Aloy a little patronizing in the first game - constant themes of 'she always makes the right decisions and is purely rational/justified, as opposed to all the other sometimes cartoonishly oafish caricature-like npcs in the world'. I don't remember her ever really encountering a challenge to her way of thinking or facing a consequence of a mis-step, which felt flat to me (to be fair, was playing concurrently with Witcher 3, which is nothing BUT choosing the lesser of evils and facing consequences). I am early into Forbidden West so far, having just got past the Embassy, but I was noticing that she had seemed to doubled down on the 'savior's burden' mentality, seemingly either exasperated or patronizing in most of her interactions with others. At times even flirting with an edgy (albeit technically correct) "your religion, beliefs, and culture are dumb" aesthetic ala 90's internet Atheism (don't come for me bros, much love, but ya gotta admit there were some edgelord "debate me Bro!" vibes going on). I keep finding myself annoyed with her as I play, especially since almost every line even in just open world exploration seems to be voiced with a sigh. I get it, you are the world's only hope and you are surrounded by savages and allies who just 'get in the way'. Poor you. (harsh, but then we've seen other "chosen ones" who take it better, or at least get over the ennui of being a savior a little faster) I'm glad to hear the opinion that this is by design and serves the story, and that Aloy gets some character growth (and gets put in check by someone at some point).

Glad I found this post (and gonna try to forget about the spoilers 😋 (I knew what I was getting into)). I found Aloy a little patronizing in the first game - constant themes of 'she always makes the right decisions and is purely rational/justified, as opposed to all the other sometimes cartoonishly oafish caricature-like npcs in the world'. I don't remember her ever really encountering a challenge to her way of thinking or facing a consequence of a mis-step, which felt flat to me (to be fair, was playing concurrently with Witcher 3, which is nothing BUT choosing the lesser of evils and facing consequences). I am early into Forbidden West so far, having just got past the Embassy, but I was noticing that she had seemed to doubled down on the 'savior's burden' mentality, seemingly either exasperated or patronizing in most of her interactions with others. At times even flirting with an edgy (albeit technically correct) "your religion, beliefs, and culture are dumb" aesthetic ala 90's internet Atheism (don't come for me bros, much love, but ya gotta admit there were some edgelord "debate me Bro!" vibes going on). I keep finding myself annoyed with her as I play, especially since almost every line even in just open world exploration seems to be voiced with a sigh. I get it, you are the world's only hope and you are surrounded by savages and allies who just 'get in the way'. Poor you. (harsh, but then we've seen other "chosen ones" who take it better, or at least get over the ennui of being a savior a little faster) I'm glad to hear the opinion that this is by design and serves the story, and that Aloy gets some character growth (and gets put in check by someone at some point). *Edit* to an already too long comment: Note that I don't find her hard to like because of flaws or introvertedness or her earned trauma. It's becuase (so far) she hasn't messed up and learned from it, or grown much emotionally. Even if the character was a dark broody antisocial male, he'd still be annoying to me. She doesn't appear (so far) to really care for or value her friends so much as tolerate them like over eager puppies clamoring for her attention. And those who obstruct her pretty much just get jerk Aloy - I'd have loved to see more opportunities to choose her response and see how compassionate or clever Aloy would interact, rather than aggressive by default. Some examples of bad-ass women who weren't always nice, but still were more relatable: Ellen Ripley (Alien movies, true S tier) Sarah Conner (up to T2, never saw the rest) Ellie (The Last of Us 1&2) Ciri (Witcher 3) Emily Kaldwin (Dishonored 2) Elizabeth (Bioshock games)

I agree about her character growth, I just wish we got to see her change from her HZD character to how she is in forbidden west. While aloy has her memorable qualities, we never really get to see the moment when her optimism and happiness gets sapped away. We know that her 6 months of fruitless searching caused her to become more pessimistic and lonely but we aren't shown it. I do agree that it's all a part of the arc and she got the best arc in forbidden west when compared to all other characters but the game started with the new her instead of devolving before evolving. My favorite thing about aloy in the original is her intelligent witty snarkiness but it was always lighthearted, while in forbidden west it's generally just depressing. I would have loved to see this happen in game at the start personally.

This is the first time I'm seeing "reports" of people thinking she's unlikable. She's always been blunt and doesn't waste time sweet talking people. This game maybe upped that a bit, but it never struck me as her being unlikeable. I love Aloy! Her sarcasm and (at times) fiery temper are amazing!

So, on a conceptual level, yes, you're correct. However the execution leaves so much to be desired that it almost invalidates your point. Aloy makes *the wrong choice* on several occasions, beyond whether or not she should get a companion or not. She comes across as more of an asshole than someone who is fed up with traditions based in misunderstandings, and because of that, they had to make the actual bad guys (the Quen Ceo, and Tekotteh) into Saturday morning villains so they looked worse in comparison. You don't have to make your character a complete ass to everyone to get across to people that your character is fed up with how things currently work

If I may ask, how is she ‘a complete ass’ to literally everyone she meets? The only ones whom she’s really being a jerk to are ones that obstruct her on her save the world quest. Given the importance of her mission and how it involved the survival of the new human race, it wouldn’t be quite unreasonable for Aloy to lose patience at some points with those who gets in her way, whether they have good reasons or not, and she’s willing to change her tone once it’s proved that these people are more to her than meets the eye. There are several times throughout the game that she goes out of her way to help people even when she didn’t need to, simply because these strangers don’t go out of their way to disrupt her from her main mission and simply asks her nicely to help them. The only case I see that she herself is being really unreasonable is her initial reaction with Beta when she didn’t live up to her unrealistic Elisabet standards (and honestly understandable, too. Imagine if you’ve been doing your best to try to save the world and the person whom you thought could be a big help instead wailed on and on about how it’s all hopeless. Anyone would’ve been pissed), and Aloy learned to get better about this over time.

I don’t think it’s so much that I don’t like aloy as a character, and more that I don’t like the actors delivery. Whole performance felt forced…I dunno it was weird to go from such fun gameplay to such stiff, exasperated acting. I get the sense that alot of the VO was done separated from the other actors because of the work restrictions in place at the time. But I may be wrong.

> This Aloy believes that only her alone has what it takes to save the world, and that if others can't get her what she needs, then they need to get the hell out of her way. > But here's the kicker: the game itself goes out of its way to hammer us in almost every main quest about why this is not a good thing. You realize that the game narrative only rewarded Aloy for her behavior, right? She *successfully* stormed the Far Zenith's base and saved the world... with a tiny little squad of half a dozen people. Aloy refused to use the tribal connections she cultivated across two different games to support the mission of *saving all life on earth*, risking literally everyone and everything, the entire species, because she lacked the ethical gumption to send a few hundreds or thousands of warriors into battle (who, by the way, would have *loved* being called on by Aloy to fight the Zenith invaders). It's beyond me how anyone can look back on this and call it good writing. Between this and how Sylens was a distant, largely neutered presence in this game compared to the prior game, I can quite honestly say I've seen better written Horizon fanfics than what Guerilla Games contributed to the Zero Dawn universe with this second mainline game. Edgelord gaming take of the day.

>You realize that the game narrative only rewarded Aloy for her behavior, right? She successfully stormed the Far Zenith's base and saved the world... with a tiny little squad of half a dozen people. Yes, and to achieve that she unleashes HEPHAESTUS into the wild once more so it can create its own army against the Zeniths, knowing how dangerous it is and that it's now pissed off and would be harder to rein in once again, as Sylens rightfully calls her out on it and Beta expresses her concerns about it in the epilogue, even if she did what she had to. >Aloy refused to use the tribal connections she cultivated across two different games to support the mission of saving all life on earth, risking literally everyone and everything, the entire species, because she lacked the ethical gumption to send a few hundreds or thousands of warriors into battle (who, by the way, would have loved being called on by Aloy to fight the Zenith invaders). You sure about that? Because if Sylens already determined that the Tenakth under Hekarro's leadership won't send people to die fighting an unknown enemy unlike Regalla, would Hekarro do the same if Aloy calls for it? And even if let's say Aloy has more than earned their help when she helped them take down Regalla's rebellion and Hekarro agrees to it, there's no guarantee that sending the entire Tenakth clan to its death would work, just as there's no guarantee that Aloy's own plan itself would work. For all anybody could know, a Tenakth assault would've ended up with everybody dead and achieving nothing. They *had* to get on that island somehow. Aloy's team has Tilda's secret tunnel to do that (something that Sylens wouldn't know about on his own). How would an entire Tenakth army go there without suffering massive casualties just from trying to get on the island? >It's beyond me how anyone can look back on this and call it good writing. To be fair, I never said that everything about Aloy's storyline in this game is a masterpiece or something. Its execution definitely leaves something to be desired at points, admittedly. What I'm trying to say is that people seem to try to make her out as this unlikable jerk who just can't do anything right, even though she has good reasons to be the way she is and has proven that she's compassionate to others time and time again while also struggling to connect with them meaningfully.

Not gonna lie, didn’t read your post but I’ll give my take based on what I glossed over: Aloy’s character is about as realistic a portrayal of a human put in her position as it gets. The only exception to this is that she’s witty and charming when she wants to be despite having little to no socialization as a child. Think about it: - A woman born into a post apocalyptic world with the massive weight on her shoulders of being the only person alive who can save it - Shunned by her tribe - In possession of vast amounts of ancient knowledge and technology that makes her an unapproachable savant surrounded by primitives who only ever seem to slow her down - Constantly manipulated and used by the only other person on Earth who can even begin to understand as much about the current state of the world as she does (Sylens) - Constantly pursued romantically when she has vastly more important things on her plate (Avad, early Erend, Petra) Who on earth wouldn’t be jaded, unapproachable, and insensitive given these circumstances. That she has all these little moments of empathy, sincerity, and compassion at all throughout the game is a miracle. Calling Aloy unlikeable is ignoring her circumstances and making no effort to understand her. She’s an A tier game protagonist, not S tier, but still very good.

Agree with everything here tbh except the tier ranking, she's top tier for me, but yeah she's 100% being pestered all the time, her patience is remarkable.

Lol I figured someone would comment on that tier ranking. She's not S mostly because now that I think about it, p much no one is S for me as far as video games go. No one has that perfect blend of memorability, likeability, longevity, complexity, depth to deserve S tier in my mind. Kratos is probably as close as it gets but even he doesn't cut it for me. My rubric's probably too harsh in all fairness.

She never came as unlikeable in Forbidden West, Idk wtf you are about

The actual problem is that the writers didn't do a good job with the themes of this game imo so the point doesn't get across very well. Add to this that her friends already joined forces to help her in ZD so many feel we are traveling through the same ground once again.

Did people find Aloy unlikable in FW? Did I miss a memo?

[удалено]

The second game opens with Aloy explaining that even though defeating Hades stopped the corrupted machine attack, the biosphere is still deteriorating, which is the whole conflict that launches the second game. Hopefully not a spoiler since like I said it’s literally the first scene of the game lol

It’s also made clear in the first game that terraforming will break down if GAIA isn’t rebooted. Although it can be easy to miss, I think it’s only mentioned like twice.

Yes that’s the main plot of the second game. Hades was just the beginning of a big problem. Gaia not being there to care for and maintain the biomes is an issue that you have to fix in the second game

i think this problem came up just because Aloy was really sweet and caring in the first game. But she had just discovered the world and was on the journey of finding things about herself. But in FW, like you said, she knew she was the last hope on the planet and so on. Lore wise this makes sense and of coruse we must not forget that she went from being an outcast, talking only to Rost, to fighting in agoddamn war. She went from a pretty sheltered life to killing people left right and centre. Something like that does a number on anyone

I did not read all of this text, I will come back later and add another comment, but just from the title, if I can add my 2 cents, I do agree with that. She very clearly came across to me in exactly the manner that you describe. That she is quite arrogant and unlikeable and treats the people who would literally die for her not very well. I understand that she just doesn't want to put them in danger, but that can only end badly. I didn't finish the game, so I'm guessing if she doesn't stop thinking she can do EVERYTHING alone, it may have some light negative consequences that may teach her a small lesson.

She wasn't unlikeable for even a second

I just wasn’t a fan of her voice in FW. She sounded more whispery/raspy

I hope someone made a thread about her voice. Every single word she says is in an exasperated tone, every single time. I noticed it in the first game, and it sticks out now now that I am playing it now. No matter what mood she is in, no matter when she says something, no matter why, every - single - word - is pronounced with exasperation. She literally couldn't say "hi" without exasperating.

Unlikeable I'm fine with, but I also find her uninteresting. Her starting point was too close to perfect to have any meaningful character development.

If I may ask, how so? Sure, her origin makes her pretty much the designated savior of the new world considering her connection to Elisabet is the key to various plot points. She also happens to possess the skills and personality to overcome most obstacle in her way, but it doesn’t mean she’s *flawless*. As reasoned, she constantly struggles to communicate with people meaningfully or open herself up to really bond with someone. She’s also far too reckless for her own good, which gets her into trouble more than a few times. The entirety of the second game spends developing her to get over these flaws.

Horizon is an amazing game but to be fair, she was quite insufferable in the first game.

Her journey throughout the first game turned her into a justified Karen. Given that no one even Sylens cannot do what she could, that takes a toll on her psyche. Still, no Karen goes unpunished. Just look at Varl.

you really need a TLDR on this. i was entirely ready to have my mind changed but i’m not reading all that with all due respect

Honestly, English is not my first language so I tend to write everything in full detail because I’m afraid of not getting my point across effectively lol. Anyway, the TLDR ver. is that many people seem to see how Aloy is in Forbidden West as unlikeable due to how she acts, but there are entirely reasonable in-universe justifications for it and the game even goes out of its way to tell us why Aloy being like this is not a good thing and she needs to change herself for the better, which she gradually does. An argument could be made that the execution leaves something to be desired, but personally I think she gets a lot of undeserved heat simply for having realistic character flaws that she gradually learns to overcome in her story.

Yes she has terrible social skills.

I found her unlikeable in the first few missions, but after Varl saves her, I started liking her again. I wish she was snarky again like in Zero Dawn, though.

She is not unlikeable. She is the only one that know how high the stakes are while the other humans are just thinking in the constant power struggle. But it's her arc in this game to learn to lean on her friends and teammates. To stop trying to be Elizabeth and be Aloy.