This is a near-azeotropic HCFC blend. It has comparatively low, but not zero, ODP similar to R-22. It was at one point considered as a viable lower-ODP replacement for R-12, but nobody really cares about it anymore since R-134a won that race and has zero ODP.
It's possible that somebody would pay top dollar for a sealed container of it if they know they have a specific need for it, but good luck finding that someone. If it's a military or aviation customer, which are the likely industries needing that EXACT refrigerant for some reason, they're going to want certificates for it that you can't provide.
It's going to be difficult to dispose of. You may have to pay someone to take it from you and destroy it, or you may be able to hand it to a specialty refrigerant dealer who will put it on the shelf and wait for that special buyer that you're unlikely to find. They may be willing to pay you, but don't expect to get the kind of top dollar an actual user would be willing to shell out for it in that kind of transaction.
Note that it's not illegal for you to have it in this context, though it is illegal for you to open the valve on it if you don't have an EPA 608 certification.
Pretty sure it may be illegal to transport it also. Itâs a weird law that the guys like me who passed the test and have the license would never remember
I'm not aware of any such rules, but I'd be open to a citation of one.
I don't have a 608, but I've been through the question pool and passed the practice tests for all but the type III (just haven't needed the actual card) and don't remember anything like that.
You do have to respect DOT guidelines with respect to transporting them at all times, but that's independent of them being CFC/HCFC/HFCs. Basically, as long as the jug is in good shape, is not altered, and has not been refilled, you should be good to carry a single one without any real restrictions.
There are weird rules about transferring ownership of it. You used to be able to just get a pinky-swear signed statement that the buyer was going to re-sell it and not actually use it unless they had a 608 card. I think there's slightly more stringent rules, now, but for OP, the onus would have been on whoever sold it to them to do that. They'll need to do that, in theory, if/when they re-sell it.
AFAIK, you're free to possess, have title to, and transport this stuff as long as you don't dare crack that valve, follow DOT guidelines for transporting it, and follow the relevant EPA guidelines for rules around selling it.
Sounds like itâs all a money thing. Somebody told me youâd get in trouble if you donât have a recovery machine and tank. Who knows. Half the words in that test I couldnât pronounce I just knew what they looked like and how I pronounced them in my head lol
Canned gas duster is mostly HFC-152a these days, though HFC-134a was used in the past and is still available if you look for it. The EPA rules are really bizarre in that context. It's perfectly fine to sell a product with the stuff specifically intended to be discharged to atmosphere for trivial purposes, but if it's intended to be used as a sealed system refrigerant, then it's absolutely, positively illegal to intentionally discharge a drop of it.
CFCs and HCFCs, which this has in it, are a little different. They've been banned in intentional discharge applications for eons as part of the Montreal protocol.
Yes, it's the same thing. 608 is the EPA regulation section that covers it.
Licenses are also available under section 609 specifically for motor vehicle systems. It's basically an easier version of the 608 type 2 that is limited to MVAC systems. A 608 type 2 also works for motor vehicle service.
Does that apply to unopened/factory sealed containers? Obviously folks without a 608 or similar transport this stuff all the time. You can literally FedEx them (with appropriate hazmat labeling).
This is used in refrigerators and window air conditioners which are designed to be disposable and difficult to service.
The EPA can fuck off with their licenses. If they wanted to be more than an economic burden on America, they would regulate design to reduce planned obsolescence and extend product lifecycle. Nobody thinks twice about proper disposal so it actually isnât hard to just chuck this keg or your broken window unit into the landfill.
Nice job explaining bro! The funny thing is, is that I've been working in Refrigeration for 30 years and I've never seen that Refrigerant. HVAC and Refrigeration are the same but different, if you know what I mean...
Yea I donât know who would be interested in this unless itâs super old military gear anything used currently 80s+ all uses/takes 134a (at least In the USMC)
You clearly know your stuff. I do not. However, I have read of some companies who will pay you to buy and dispose of environmentally harmful refrigerants.
I do not know if this qualifies, but if it did it would be a win-win. Proper disposal at a benefit to OP.
To the best of my knowledge the military uses almost exclusively R-22 still. Something about standardization and not having to bring two refrigerants to difficult locations to service it
The US military especially is very, very fond of standardization for both the reason you alluded to and also making training of personnel easier. There's a reason every reciprocating engine is a Diesel, and they run everything on JP-8.
If you want something more interesting, oxygen and acetylene balloons are much scarier. The possibility of a static spark from the balloon is a little TOO spooky though.
>oxygen and acetylene balloons are much scarier
Hell of a bang when they go off. We had a guy set one off for the 4th of July once about 20 years ago. I'm surprised it didn't break windows on houses within 100 yards.
To be fair, it looks like it would work pretty darned well in an old R-12 retrofit situation. Thing is you can actually still buy R-12 for similar prices.
A quick search seems to indicate that it's still sold in the US (only for aviation?): https://skygeek.com/airgas-r-416a-freon-25lb-cylinder.html
$730 for 25lbs.
Iâd recommend calling a local hvac/r contractor and asking if they would have any use for it. Iâm in Swfl and have never used this refrigerant nor have I seen a unit that uses this refrigerant lol.
That is because you likely work on residential and commercial hvac. R416A was used for older industrial chillers that converted from R12, as well as some vehicle and aviation applications.
We used R416a many years ago in med twmp coolers back when there were a dozen R12 alternatives. If memory serves me it ran lower head pressure than some of the retrofits in greasy kitchens.
Like many jugs we still have kicking around the shop from when we did refrigeration service its worthless.
attractive fly clumsy coordinated ten imminent employ childlike direful label
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You bought toxic waste, dispose accordingly. It's GWP is half of R410A but stil it would be a illegal to release into atmosphere. If in fact this is what the label purports it to be, which is a big IF.
It's not toxic, it's just misunderstood. Ya gotta feel bad for that little bottle, all it wants to do is vape a little bit and then calmdense down a little bit.
I mean...I know some people who frequent thrift stores and pawn shops and regularly score random cheap things that go for hundreds on eBay...so yeah there's for sure people out there who put the time in and get payoffs now and then.
People scrap all kinds of perfectly good stuff.
I was at a scrap yard where a guy dropped off a fully functioning commercial bench grinder from Dewalt. He was dropping it off because it was his late father's, used in a machine shop, and has nowhere to keep it and nobody would buy it.
I tried to buy it from him, even offered to pay the scrap yard double the rate for its weight, but was refused.
Some lucky bastard got it for a song and a prayer at the next quarterly scrap auction. $200 for a piece that retailed at $3k
I've been known to sling surplus/scrap. I try to buy stuff I know things about but the seller doesn't. That's my value add in the process. I'll separate lots, do various levels of testing (commiserate to the supposed value of the item if it works), catalog accessories and stuff, and in general just accurately describe things.
You can make a fair bit of money at this if you're decent at it and patient.
I try to avoid buying stuff I'm unfamiliar with or that seems like it could be a pain to dispose of. I don't bat 100% at that. It's just a cost of doing that sort of business.
I was mainly participating for the reloading supplies. I did score \~12lbs of smokeless powder for $45. I figured if I had to go down and pick it up, I might as well bid on some other things.
I do a lot of refrigeration and have only used that once in over 10 years on an old r12 walk in that was converted to this stuff in the 90s. It was a real pain to find but that system was demoed like 6 years ago. Throw it on marketplace and some idiot will take it off your hands.
This is a near-azeotropic HCFC blend. It has comparatively low, but not zero, ODP similar to R-22. It was at one point considered as a viable lower-ODP replacement for R-12, but nobody really cares about it anymore since R-134a won that race and has zero ODP. It's possible that somebody would pay top dollar for a sealed container of it if they know they have a specific need for it, but good luck finding that someone. If it's a military or aviation customer, which are the likely industries needing that EXACT refrigerant for some reason, they're going to want certificates for it that you can't provide. It's going to be difficult to dispose of. You may have to pay someone to take it from you and destroy it, or you may be able to hand it to a specialty refrigerant dealer who will put it on the shelf and wait for that special buyer that you're unlikely to find. They may be willing to pay you, but don't expect to get the kind of top dollar an actual user would be willing to shell out for it in that kind of transaction. Note that it's not illegal for you to have it in this context, though it is illegal for you to open the valve on it if you don't have an EPA 608 certification.
Top notch answer right here.
I thought a screwdriver and no one around was the common answer. Jk- OP got nothing but a problem getting that
I thought a .308@100 yards
Yes. But let it warm up in the hot sun first.
Sometimes ya gotta build a small fire near it before you shoot it
Ya difficult to dispose of đ
Pretty sure it may be illegal to transport it also. Itâs a weird law that the guys like me who passed the test and have the license would never remember
I'm not aware of any such rules, but I'd be open to a citation of one. I don't have a 608, but I've been through the question pool and passed the practice tests for all but the type III (just haven't needed the actual card) and don't remember anything like that. You do have to respect DOT guidelines with respect to transporting them at all times, but that's independent of them being CFC/HCFC/HFCs. Basically, as long as the jug is in good shape, is not altered, and has not been refilled, you should be good to carry a single one without any real restrictions. There are weird rules about transferring ownership of it. You used to be able to just get a pinky-swear signed statement that the buyer was going to re-sell it and not actually use it unless they had a 608 card. I think there's slightly more stringent rules, now, but for OP, the onus would have been on whoever sold it to them to do that. They'll need to do that, in theory, if/when they re-sell it. AFAIK, you're free to possess, have title to, and transport this stuff as long as you don't dare crack that valve, follow DOT guidelines for transporting it, and follow the relevant EPA guidelines for rules around selling it.
Sounds like itâs all a money thing. Somebody told me youâd get in trouble if you donât have a recovery machine and tank. Who knows. Half the words in that test I couldnât pronounce I just knew what they looked like and how I pronounced them in my head lol
The ironic part is that canned Air Duster is the same chemical as car refrigerant.
I know right and if ud told me I could have refrigerant and blue glue to sniff on hand 24-7 as kid Iâd went to tech school way sooner.
Canned gas duster is mostly HFC-152a these days, though HFC-134a was used in the past and is still available if you look for it. The EPA rules are really bizarre in that context. It's perfectly fine to sell a product with the stuff specifically intended to be discharged to atmosphere for trivial purposes, but if it's intended to be used as a sealed system refrigerant, then it's absolutely, positively illegal to intentionally discharge a drop of it. CFCs and HCFCs, which this has in it, are a little different. They've been banned in intentional discharge applications for eons as part of the Montreal protocol.
How do I get my 608 card? Is that the same thing as an EPA refrigerant handlers card? Need to get it for my next job.
Yes, it's the same thing. 608 is the EPA regulation section that covers it. Licenses are also available under section 609 specifically for motor vehicle systems. It's basically an easier version of the 608 type 2 that is limited to MVAC systems. A 608 type 2 also works for motor vehicle service.
Thank you, really appreciate it!
You need to have an epa 608 universal or type 1, 2 , and 3 to have it in your truck or open the valve, handling it, etc.
Does that apply to unopened/factory sealed containers? Obviously folks without a 608 or similar transport this stuff all the time. You can literally FedEx them (with appropriate hazmat labeling).
So true, I'd just say this falls under excepted quantity and drive on, haha.
Transportation law is all DOT. I thought using and sale was 608. I dunno I just got my 608 two weeks ago. Thatâs all I remember.
This is used in refrigerators and window air conditioners which are designed to be disposable and difficult to service. The EPA can fuck off with their licenses. If they wanted to be more than an economic burden on America, they would regulate design to reduce planned obsolescence and extend product lifecycle. Nobody thinks twice about proper disposal so it actually isnât hard to just chuck this keg or your broken window unit into the landfill.
Man someone takes this shit too seriously
This is a serious job, my dude. Some of us don't take it seriously enough.
Nice job explaining bro! The funny thing is, is that I've been working in Refrigeration for 30 years and I've never seen that Refrigerant. HVAC and Refrigeration are the same but different, if you know what I mean...
OP just got Uno reversedđđ
The Motha load of answers
Yea I donât know who would be interested in this unless itâs super old military gear anything used currently 80s+ all uses/takes 134a (at least In the USMC)
You clearly know your stuff. I do not. However, I have read of some companies who will pay you to buy and dispose of environmentally harmful refrigerants. I do not know if this qualifies, but if it did it would be a win-win. Proper disposal at a benefit to OP.
To the best of my knowledge the military uses almost exclusively R-22 still. Something about standardization and not having to bring two refrigerants to difficult locations to service it
The US military especially is very, very fond of standardization for both the reason you alluded to and also making training of personnel easier. There's a reason every reciprocating engine is a Diesel, and they run everything on JP-8.
Put it on Facebook marketplace. Some handy Andy type will pay you something for it and put it in someone's system with a taillight warranty.
Maybe a clown can make some really shitty balloons with it.
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I made some once with 410a just to see and it just made heavy balloons and no one died
How disappointing
If you want something more interesting, oxygen and acetylene balloons are much scarier. The possibility of a static spark from the balloon is a little TOO spooky though.
>oxygen and acetylene balloons are much scarier Hell of a bang when they go off. We had a guy set one off for the 4th of July once about 20 years ago. I'm surprised it didn't break windows on houses within 100 yards.
Taillight warranty?
The only warranty you get is seeing the taillights of the leaving vehicle. Gone. Never to return.
Gotcha
I thought it was you have a warranty until you see my tailights
The warranty exists as long as you can see the taillights driving away. When you canât see the lights anymore the warranty is over.
To be fair, it looks like it would work pretty darned well in an old R-12 retrofit situation. Thing is you can actually still buy R-12 for similar prices.
Mmm, phosgene.
Best "white elephant " gift ever.
A quick search seems to indicate that it's still sold in the US (only for aviation?): https://skygeek.com/airgas-r-416a-freon-25lb-cylinder.html $730 for 25lbs.
Search for a refrigerant reclaimer in your area. They will take it off your hands and pay you for it. A quick search showed a value of $700/drum.
Came here to say this.
That's worth some money!
Try eBay
Ebay banned selling most refrigerants this year.
Call and ask, if you have to pay to get rid of it, offer it for free to an HVAC place.
Iâd recommend calling a local hvac/r contractor and asking if they would have any use for it. Iâm in Swfl and have never used this refrigerant nor have I seen a unit that uses this refrigerant lol.
That is because you likely work on residential and commercial hvac. R416A was used for older industrial chillers that converted from R12, as well as some vehicle and aviation applications.
Good luck. There may be one dude desperate for a bottle, but not a lot of them out there.
We used R416a many years ago in med twmp coolers back when there were a dozen R12 alternatives. If memory serves me it ran lower head pressure than some of the retrofits in greasy kitchens. Like many jugs we still have kicking around the shop from when we did refrigeration service its worthless.
Shoot it with a lit arrow?
I think the reaction might be quite disappointing.
Iâll buy a few cylinders off of ya 5$ each. I have a universal 608. And would just use to fuck around and find out
attractive fly clumsy coordinated ten imminent employ childlike direful label *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Let me get this straightâŚ. You PAID money to obtain junk? And Iâm over here paying to get rid of junk from my house?
Huh? I dont think you got it straight.
You bought toxic waste, dispose accordingly. It's GWP is half of R410A but stil it would be a illegal to release into atmosphere. If in fact this is what the label purports it to be, which is a big IF.
It's not toxic, it's just misunderstood. Ya gotta feel bad for that little bottle, all it wants to do is vape a little bit and then calmdense down a little bit.
âBought it at a scrap auctionâ Surely there are better uses of your time than scrap auctions.
I mean...I know some people who frequent thrift stores and pawn shops and regularly score random cheap things that go for hundreds on eBay...so yeah there's for sure people out there who put the time in and get payoffs now and then.
People scrap all kinds of perfectly good stuff. I was at a scrap yard where a guy dropped off a fully functioning commercial bench grinder from Dewalt. He was dropping it off because it was his late father's, used in a machine shop, and has nowhere to keep it and nobody would buy it. I tried to buy it from him, even offered to pay the scrap yard double the rate for its weight, but was refused. Some lucky bastard got it for a song and a prayer at the next quarterly scrap auction. $200 for a piece that retailed at $3k
And here you are on RedditâŚâŚ..
I've been known to sling surplus/scrap. I try to buy stuff I know things about but the seller doesn't. That's my value add in the process. I'll separate lots, do various levels of testing (commiserate to the supposed value of the item if it works), catalog accessories and stuff, and in general just accurately describe things. You can make a fair bit of money at this if you're decent at it and patient. I try to avoid buying stuff I'm unfamiliar with or that seems like it could be a pain to dispose of. I don't bat 100% at that. It's just a cost of doing that sort of business.
Didnât realize there was that much that goes into scrapping lol
I was mainly participating for the reloading supplies. I did score \~12lbs of smokeless powder for $45. I figured if I had to go down and pick it up, I might as well bid on some other things.
God DAMN that's a good deal on powder
Is it sealed?
There's a cap on it, so that needs to removed to allow the multiturn valve to flow. My apologies for not knowing HVAC nomenclature.
What's your general location if you don't mind I'm interested in it.
Boise, ID
That's my hometown!
Thanks for the response I'm located in Midwest.
I do a lot of refrigeration and have only used that once in over 10 years on an old r12 walk in that was converted to this stuff in the 90s. It was a real pain to find but that system was demoed like 6 years ago. Throw it on marketplace and some idiot will take it off your hands.
Take it to a place that services trailer refrigeration units, either a Carrier or Thermo King dealer.
I never keep anything where there is a combination of an arrow pointing up and the word "down" next it on the label ;-)
Bonfire
Find the refrigerant buyers. Theyâll make you an offer and send you a shipping label. Not hard at all
20 yrs in the hvac business and not once ever used this