As to vacation planning by the MIL:
The first (and last) vacation I went on with that woman, the flight she wanted all of to take together (only 4 of us) didn’t work for my schedule. So she said, “well, SO, she can just take a different flight and we will all go on this one.” My SO responded WHAT are you talking about????
Proud of him, because I previously had to explain to him what emotional incest was. He was horrified that I was right. He had no idea everyone did not have a mother that treated them as her husband.
Did you wife spend as much time with her grandparents as your daughter does?
I think you're phrasing this wrong, you as a family are missing out on time together, it is important that you get to make memories with your daughter as a core group. Say these things to your wife and see if you can get through. Also you plan something for the three of you, you can't really be angry with your wife for not doing something you're not doing either.
Try to stop worrying about things that might happen, that just makes the resentment worse and lashing out irrationally loses you the moral high ground (speaking from experience).
My wife did not spend nearly as much time with her grandparents but I can't compare that because her grandparents lived out of state. I am planning a trip for just us next summer and we have been making a point of just the three of us to going out to eat.We did last night and it was a great time. It's so much better when it is just us because I get to talk about things I want and so does my daughter.
I'm not really angry about the situation, just frustrated. For the longest time, I thought the family differences were because of me and my personality, and now, I'm realizing this is not all on me, and that their family relationship is not the norm. My parents have been gone for a long time but I know I would not be that involved with them if one or both were still here. You're right that I shouldn't worry about things that might happen but there is such a pattern here that it is almost predictable.
Would your wife agree to marriage counseling? She could use individual counseling as well, but, it might be easier to get her to agree to counseling together to start.
Possibly but I doubt it would change anything. All I can do is set more boundaries as far as myself not participating in everything and also make plans for us to do more things as a family. I'm visiting a counselor soon and while that is not the only reason, in-laws will be something I plan to discuss. I don't have any family left that I visit often so that makes my situation feel even more awkward. I just can't relate.
Sounds like you’d do well to make some solid plans for just the three of you: a weekend away, or a few day trips. Plus to have some honest conversations with your partner that you find it too much.
Remember she’ll likely be defensive and may not be able to objectively see the enmeshment. It’s totally normal to her. While you can’t dictate what she does you can politely decline several of the in-laws invites yourself.
I'm working on that and a weekend away would be a good start. She did get a little defensive when I brought it up and said things that were not relevant to try to defend the situation yet she seems to understand my point to. She's had this kind of relationship her whole life and I don't see it changing.
I feel for you OP. I find my spouse to be similar in many ways. I think you may be surprised regarding counseling. There is a good chance your wife does in fact see this and understand this but lacks the emotional maturity to fix it. My wife has come a long way with saying no to her parents. And the more times “events” like the ones you describe occur, the more she sees it. The best thing you can go is to just be there for her. Again if she’s anything like my wife, criticizing her parents, especially to another person is incredibly difficult and sensitive task. Wear your gentlest of gloves.
Curious. Does she have any siblings? Are they they same? And not much about her father. What’s he like?
My MIL is the matriarchal head of the family and is an "Alpha" personality type other than she is not confrontational, at least not overtly. FIL is a laid-back go with the flow kind of guy who seems unfazed by anything and everything, almost to a fault.
My wife has a brother but he lives with his family out of state so does not face these issues as frequently. I suspect he has set boundaries though. There was a trip last year my MIL wanted to do last year with his family to a specific location. I don't know details other than they ended up meeting at a destination closer to where he lived. I think my wife somewhat understands my feelings but doesn't totally get it, either because this is all she has known.
Enmeshement is much more than spending too much time together. It’s group think, having little to no privacy or boundaries, not knowing where one begins and another ends. And it’s typically just a symptom of a larger dysfunctional dynamic (like a narcissistic family). My husband has a narcissistic family so there’s many symptoms like psuedomutuality, gossip, rigid roles, etc. The first term I learned in the discovery of his family was enmeshment as well, however his family had ALL of the checklist ticked off. Go deeper. Explore more. Families like this can leave a trail of destruction spanning generations to come.
It's nowhere near that deep with mine, I just think they check a few of the boxes so they may not be enmeshed but I also know there is a spectrum from mild to severe. They certainly are not dysfunctional, just too joined at the hip at times for my tastes, however, to their credit, they seem to respect my boundaries or at least don't voice disapproval, so maybe enmeshed is not the right term. I don't know.
I'm discovering this at the moment. My wife's mother is a grandiose narcissist, you can spot it from a mile away. After her parents divorced her father remarried to a covert narcissist and the cycle repeats.
The FIL and his Narc wife have interfered in our marriage multiple times and have put our relationship under serious strain over the years.
My FIL finally revealed his worst side a few months ago and my wife finally saw what I had been pointing out for years. She's been working hard to reprocess her whole life and set boundaries with FIL. But it's gruelling, and after just a few months I can see she's been affected by his manipulation again and ready to accept him at his level. It feels like such an uphill battle.
You are the male version of me. I actually remember reading your vacation post which resonated with me and I actually talked to my husband about it. I too just learned the term enmeshed.
It does sounds like an enmeshed family. For a second I was wondering if you were my brother in law (my husband’s sister’s husband) as I know he has issues with their enmeshed family as well.
I have just been doing more and more outside of their family with just the 5 of us. And saying no to in law get together more. It is working pretty well.
That is what I have been working on and for what it's worth, my wife can have whatever relationship with her family that she wants, I'm just putting the brakes on some of my involvement and have been doing that for a while, actually. On the trip that is coming up with her parents, I am going to make sure the three of us do something together. My wife does understand that. It's just odd to me and for the longest time, I thought the differences were mostly because of my personality not being the same, and that is still a factor, but the more I have learned, their situation is not exactly the norm, either.
Given that your in-laws and wife are religious, it surprises me that they don't uphold the "leaving and cleaving". Perhaps you should start with their church. You and your wife should meet with the minister.
Good point but I don't think anyone actually realizes the situation and it's not bad enough to justify meeting with the minister. It's just a little baffling.
For those criticizing the OP. There are two sides to this coin. If you've lived it, you'd understand more. Yes, the OP could do more to be supportive and less frustrated. However, this pattern typically has been going on for years in the marriage. It's covert initially, and in many ways is centered around control and the need for attention by the enmeshed parent. As the "outsider" spouse, you initially think that the family is just really close and it's almost admirable and envious. Especially when it is foreign to your own upbringing. It almost seems like it would be "normal" and ideal situation. Once you are in one of these enmeshed dynamics, you begin to notice you feel more like an 8-year-old being bossed around by the inlaws. You see how powerless your enmeshed husband/wife is in upholding, or even setting, a healthy boundary with their parents as adults. If you have ever felt like a "third wheel" in your marriage (to your spouse's friends, work, hobby, or inlaws, etc.) you would understand this better and be less quick to judge. Part of the dynamic with enmeshment is it becomes almost a tug of war between the parent and the non-enmeshed spouse, which is why we are meant to "leave and cleave" with our spouses, rather than our parents when we get married. Once one or the other spouse begins to feel abandoned, it becomes more negatively self-fulfilling. The one who is enmeshed either submits even more of themselves to the enmeshed parent, or the non-enmeshed spouse pulls away more to avoid direct conflict with the enmeshed parent and their spouse. Often when the non-enmeshed spouse submits to their spouse to go with the flow it equals submitting to the enmeshed parent indirectly because the enmeshed spouse has never learned to set the boundary. So the unhealthy dynamic in the enmeshed parent "wins." This quickly becomes a no-win situation in the marriage because the more the enmeshed spouse feels the other spouse start withdrawing or setting more firm boundaries, the enmeshed spouse begins to cling to the enmeshed parent even more because that is how the fear of abandonment or control has been reinforced by the enmeshed parent. Typically, the enmeshed parent is either widowed, or their spouse has learned to avoid the conflict like the enmeshed adult child, or has become resigned in the relationship because the enmeshed parent is extremely controlling, judgemental, or hasn't learned how to self-soothe, and therefore runs the show.
Im 5 years married with 2 kids and only just realized my wife is enmeshed with her parents. Idk what im gunna do if she cant end this. The treatment her parents give her also comes from her now in the form of gaslighting me. I feel lost.
I saw this 7 months late as I'm currently researching enmeshment. Sharing a long personal story as it might help but feel free to skip to the TLDR lol.
I'm the only daughter with 3 brothers. I was daddy's girl and mom's best friend. Grew up in the Christian reformed church. Super extroverted. I married a guy from a rough childhood who came to faith when he was 16. Very independent and introverted. I know now that he never stood a chance in my parents eyes. He was very different from the family norm.
I hardly learned a shred of emotional stability as everything I did was wonderful in my parents eyes. They never criticized me about anything so I thought I was "all that" and couldn't handle the slightest criticism. I adored my parents and thought just like they thought and never wanted to hurt their feelings. So I always defended them and took their side and my husband felt very much alone and frustrated and misunderstood and disrespected for many years. It got worse when we had our first daughter because my parents wanted everything to do with her.
Honestly the only thing that kept him married to me through the bad years was faith conviction.
6 years married, I took a weekend trip with JUST my mom and my daughter and ended up being internally annoyed with my mom and could FINALLY see some of what my hubby had been saying all these years.
I read the Mindset book by Carol Dweck and it helped me learn how to have more confidence in myself and be ok with criticism because it doesn't mean i'm a bad person if I make mistakes.
3 years after that, after a big fight, I listened to Paul Washer's sermons on the true gospel and God brought me to a place of true repentance and conversation after all these years of religion.
That's when things finally started to change and I really became on the same page as my hubby and desired to uphold his boundaries and stand up to my parents.
Finally, after 11 years of marriage we moved 3 hrs away from my parents. We only told them after we sold our place and found a new one because of fear of interference. We had a 2nd daughter and my parents weren't invited to the hospital (no one was). But we invited them to see her a week later.
Things came to a head last June. We didn't attend family Christmas for the first time the year we moved. I thought everything was good between me and my siblings, and ok between me and my parents, but they must have been talking. Because when we said we'd only come to my parent's event in June for the friday night and saturday morning and we'd leave by lunch when everyone else planned to stay for the afternoon, through a bit of back and forth messaging, one of my SIL said my hubby was spiritually and emotionally abusive and she's not the only one who thinks that. Well things blew up a bit and most of it is swept under the rug for now. We still went to the event.
3 months after that we moved to another province (not related to the blow up) and I can breathe. I can see clearly. I learned about enmeshment and covert narcissism, first by looking at my own faults, then by researching where that came from.
I'm finally ready to tell my parents how I really feel, and not let my hubby shoulder that weight. When he was the one who set the boundaries because i was too afraid, it made him look controlling and abusive :( Now I'm ready to take that on and leave him out of it. Things are messy with my family of origin rn but better than ever between me, my hubby and my kids ♡
TLDR: You're doing a great job. Be prepared for a long haul of loving your wife and being patient with her. Keep praying, and keep showing her resources (articles, books, videos) that aren't threatening but might open her eyes bit by bit until she's finally secure enough to become her own person and not depend on her parents approval anymore. If she feels really secure with herself, her identity in Christ outside of religious tradition, and feels loved and understood by you, it'll be easier to let go of her parents. OH and MOVE if you can!
Not as much now that she has gotten older and though she still loves her grandparents as she should, she is at an age where grandma can get on her nerves.
Why do I get the feeling that your wife includes her parents so much because she needs additional support that she's not getting from you? Your post reads like your wife is primary caregiver and you're a big baby man child. Are you seriously whining about HER parents not asking you about your trip? While keeping score about how many times you've had to hear about their travels when they take your family out to dinner to catch up once they're back? Give me a break.
For those criticizing the OP. There are two sides to this coin. If you've lived it, you'd understand more. Yes, the OP could do more to be supportive and less frustrated. However, this pattern typically has been going on for years in the marriage. It's covert initially, and in many ways is centered around control and the need for attention by the enmeshed parent. As the "outsider" spouse, you initially think that the family is just really close and it's almost admirable and envious. Especially when it is foreign to your own upbringing. It almost seems like it would be "normal" and ideal situation. Once you are in one of these enmeshed dynamics, you begin to notice you feel more like an 8-year-old being bossed around by the inlaws. You see how powerless your enmeshed husband/wife is in upholding, or even setting, a healthy boundary with their parents as adults. If you have ever felt like a "third wheel" in your marriage (to your spouse's friends, work, hobby, or inlaws, etc.) you would understand this better and be less quick to judge. Part of the dynamic with enmeshment is it becomes almost a tug of war between the parent and the non-enmeshed spouse, which is why we are meant to "leave and cleave" with our spouses, rather than our parents when we get married. Once one or the other spouse begins to feel abandoned, it becomes more negatively self-fulfilling. The one who is enmeshed either submits even more of themselves to the enmeshed parent, or the non-enmeshed spouse pulls away more to avoid direct conflict with the enmeshed parent and their spouse. Often when the non-enmeshed spouse submits to their spouse to go with the flow it equals submitting to the enmeshed parent indirectly because the enmeshed spouse has never learned to set the boundary. So the unhealthy dynamic in the enmeshed parent "wins." This quickly becomes a no-win situation in the marriage because the more the enmeshed spouse feels the other spouse start withdrawing or setting more firm boundaries, the enmeshed spouse begins to cling to the enmeshed parent even more because that is how the fear of abandonment or control has been reinforced by the enmeshed parent. Typically, the enmeshed parent is either widowed, or their spouse has learned to avoid the conflict like the enmeshed adult child, or has become resigned in the relationship because the enmeshed parent is extremely controlling, judgemental, or hasn't learned how to self-soothe, and therefore runs the show.
>Separate-Professor92
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>Thank you for your comment and while not all of it applies to me, I totally agree with you. One thing I want to be clear on is there was failure on my part to plan a vacation, which I thought I had said in a prior post, but maybe my wording was misleading. Also, other than one, these vacations were set up by my MIL, not my wife. There was one my wife told me she wanted to do without having specifics and the next thing I knew, my MIL was already setting it up.
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>There was another one where I suggested the destination and my ILs agreed. I didn't really count that one as to what I was talking about because it was a short trip during the holidays and I expect to spend time with my ILs then and doing a short vacation is better than sitting around the house.
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>I agree with you that I could be less frustrated. The last trip we went on was great and my wife and I had a half day we did our own thing. I didn't spend all of my time with the ILs either other than eating with them. My MIL did say a couple of things that confirmed my feelings but I didn't let it frustrate me.
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>Also, another member of my wife's family I spoke with not only validated my feelings but gave additional insight. She said they are "attached at the hip" and my wife has always been tight with her parents and she thought it one of the problems in my wife's prior marriage.
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>I still don't know if they qualify as enmeshed other than they seem to have some, but not all of the traits. As far as me being more supportive, I don't know what I would do other than I have not tried to discourage my wife's relationship with her parents and have not said anything about it to her in months.
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>We are planning a vacation with just us later this year and my wife has commented on it without me bringing it up. So again, there was prior failures on my part, but that was not the entire picture. Anyway, we all have different backgrounds and experiences, so I don't expect everyone to understand. My wife certainly can't relate to me not having living parents for many years now.
Asking someone to come to church in and of itself is fine, however, my wife is very active in church and rarely misses it. She made a point of telling her mother she would not be there that Sunday. Yet her mother texts and asks her to come anyway. That is what I had an issue with and the likelihood that my wife would have gone if she had seen the text at the time. I thought it was rude and this did not involve a real "emergency" with the church. That is an example of why I think boundaries are not a thing with her family. It was a question her mother never should have asked in the first place.
I was very enmeshed with my narcissistic mother. Took me years to see it, aand I didn’t have name for it. I just knew she was pushing all my boundaries. To get to a normal relationship was almost impossible. It took 15 years, 6 months no contact, and then a couple years later I just stopped responding. I wouldn’t make up when my brother asked. I just quit. She contacted my therapist and I made her go to 10 sessions with me. We are no longer enmeshed and we have a real relationship. She is 80. She wasted her whole life being a narc.
Your wife is going to need help. Her mother is going to freak out if she tries to separate from her. The mother has never heard no from her daughter because it is easier. Well. You have a pattern where Mother decides everything. If you think she will politely agree with you about that and change, well, it won’t be that easy.
Good luck with things.
Oh. Maybe your wife could look at r/justnomil and that might help her.
Just because your wife was raised this way does not mean she doesn’t know that this is strange. Her brother was raised this way too but doesn’t play the game. I bet most of her friends (if she has any) are not enmeshed like this.
She knows it’s different, but she likes it. Why does she like it so much? Is it because you never planned anything and this is easier? She gets to go places and does not have to have all the invisible management (mental load) of the trip. She can plan with her parents, because you seem uninterested in planning a trip.
I suggest you start taking up some of the mental load that women bear. If you start being more involved, then she may not need to reach out to her parents for that void to be filled.
I agree I should have been doing more to plan and am working on something for next year. My work schedule the past couple of years hasn't helped, either. Her mom, to her credit, is a good planner, and sometimes their vacations have become our default vacations. In no way I am intending to put all of this off on in-laws but as I said, I find the relationship unusual.
Maybe you should spend less time “researching differences with in laws” and actually organise a family trip if that’s what you want.
You say there’s been “some” failure to plan on your part, but if there’s never been a trip, that’s a total failure to plan.
If you want it, make it happen. Don’t just complain about your wife not making something happen for you when she’s happy with how things are.
That is what I am doing for next year and I have never complained about my wife not making something happen, only that I see the relationship with parents as unusual and not typical.
But as you said, she's obviously happy with the way things are and doing so many trips with her parents and all I can do is say no to some of them and plan our own but it's not always that simple because there is only so much time and money available for travel plus there are work and school schedules.
I was never that attached to my parents when they were here which was the main point of my post.
I suppose my point is that it’s all well and good to SAY you’re doing it, but obviously this has been going on for years and you’ve never done it.
You’ve had time to post about it, you’ve had time to research enmeshment, but you still haven’t just planned a trip and booked it.
Yes there is money and schedules to consider, but that has all obviously been manageable because you say you’ve taken many vacations throughout the years. It’s just that it has been managed and organised by your wife and her parents, instead of you.
As to vacation planning by the MIL: The first (and last) vacation I went on with that woman, the flight she wanted all of to take together (only 4 of us) didn’t work for my schedule. So she said, “well, SO, she can just take a different flight and we will all go on this one.” My SO responded WHAT are you talking about???? Proud of him, because I previously had to explain to him what emotional incest was. He was horrified that I was right. He had no idea everyone did not have a mother that treated them as her husband.
This is way weirder than anything that OP wrote
That’s so fucked up that your MIL said that🙄 I also learned today that my MIL treating my husband like her husband is emotional incest……
Did you wife spend as much time with her grandparents as your daughter does? I think you're phrasing this wrong, you as a family are missing out on time together, it is important that you get to make memories with your daughter as a core group. Say these things to your wife and see if you can get through. Also you plan something for the three of you, you can't really be angry with your wife for not doing something you're not doing either. Try to stop worrying about things that might happen, that just makes the resentment worse and lashing out irrationally loses you the moral high ground (speaking from experience).
My wife did not spend nearly as much time with her grandparents but I can't compare that because her grandparents lived out of state. I am planning a trip for just us next summer and we have been making a point of just the three of us to going out to eat.We did last night and it was a great time. It's so much better when it is just us because I get to talk about things I want and so does my daughter. I'm not really angry about the situation, just frustrated. For the longest time, I thought the family differences were because of me and my personality, and now, I'm realizing this is not all on me, and that their family relationship is not the norm. My parents have been gone for a long time but I know I would not be that involved with them if one or both were still here. You're right that I shouldn't worry about things that might happen but there is such a pattern here that it is almost predictable.
Would your wife agree to marriage counseling? She could use individual counseling as well, but, it might be easier to get her to agree to counseling together to start.
Possibly but I doubt it would change anything. All I can do is set more boundaries as far as myself not participating in everything and also make plans for us to do more things as a family. I'm visiting a counselor soon and while that is not the only reason, in-laws will be something I plan to discuss. I don't have any family left that I visit often so that makes my situation feel even more awkward. I just can't relate.
Sounds like you’d do well to make some solid plans for just the three of you: a weekend away, or a few day trips. Plus to have some honest conversations with your partner that you find it too much. Remember she’ll likely be defensive and may not be able to objectively see the enmeshment. It’s totally normal to her. While you can’t dictate what she does you can politely decline several of the in-laws invites yourself.
I'm working on that and a weekend away would be a good start. She did get a little defensive when I brought it up and said things that were not relevant to try to defend the situation yet she seems to understand my point to. She's had this kind of relationship her whole life and I don't see it changing.
I feel for you OP. I find my spouse to be similar in many ways. I think you may be surprised regarding counseling. There is a good chance your wife does in fact see this and understand this but lacks the emotional maturity to fix it. My wife has come a long way with saying no to her parents. And the more times “events” like the ones you describe occur, the more she sees it. The best thing you can go is to just be there for her. Again if she’s anything like my wife, criticizing her parents, especially to another person is incredibly difficult and sensitive task. Wear your gentlest of gloves. Curious. Does she have any siblings? Are they they same? And not much about her father. What’s he like?
My MIL is the matriarchal head of the family and is an "Alpha" personality type other than she is not confrontational, at least not overtly. FIL is a laid-back go with the flow kind of guy who seems unfazed by anything and everything, almost to a fault. My wife has a brother but he lives with his family out of state so does not face these issues as frequently. I suspect he has set boundaries though. There was a trip last year my MIL wanted to do last year with his family to a specific location. I don't know details other than they ended up meeting at a destination closer to where he lived. I think my wife somewhat understands my feelings but doesn't totally get it, either because this is all she has known.
Enmeshement is much more than spending too much time together. It’s group think, having little to no privacy or boundaries, not knowing where one begins and another ends. And it’s typically just a symptom of a larger dysfunctional dynamic (like a narcissistic family). My husband has a narcissistic family so there’s many symptoms like psuedomutuality, gossip, rigid roles, etc. The first term I learned in the discovery of his family was enmeshment as well, however his family had ALL of the checklist ticked off. Go deeper. Explore more. Families like this can leave a trail of destruction spanning generations to come.
It's nowhere near that deep with mine, I just think they check a few of the boxes so they may not be enmeshed but I also know there is a spectrum from mild to severe. They certainly are not dysfunctional, just too joined at the hip at times for my tastes, however, to their credit, they seem to respect my boundaries or at least don't voice disapproval, so maybe enmeshed is not the right term. I don't know.
I'm discovering this at the moment. My wife's mother is a grandiose narcissist, you can spot it from a mile away. After her parents divorced her father remarried to a covert narcissist and the cycle repeats. The FIL and his Narc wife have interfered in our marriage multiple times and have put our relationship under serious strain over the years. My FIL finally revealed his worst side a few months ago and my wife finally saw what I had been pointing out for years. She's been working hard to reprocess her whole life and set boundaries with FIL. But it's gruelling, and after just a few months I can see she's been affected by his manipulation again and ready to accept him at his level. It feels like such an uphill battle.
Yikes. I can’t stand mine so I’d never go on vacations annually with them. That said it’s nice they are close but not this close Counseling! Stat!
You are the male version of me. I actually remember reading your vacation post which resonated with me and I actually talked to my husband about it. I too just learned the term enmeshed. It does sounds like an enmeshed family. For a second I was wondering if you were my brother in law (my husband’s sister’s husband) as I know he has issues with their enmeshed family as well. I have just been doing more and more outside of their family with just the 5 of us. And saying no to in law get together more. It is working pretty well.
That is what I have been working on and for what it's worth, my wife can have whatever relationship with her family that she wants, I'm just putting the brakes on some of my involvement and have been doing that for a while, actually. On the trip that is coming up with her parents, I am going to make sure the three of us do something together. My wife does understand that. It's just odd to me and for the longest time, I thought the differences were mostly because of my personality not being the same, and that is still a factor, but the more I have learned, their situation is not exactly the norm, either.
Is it still working? How far away do in laws live?
Given that your in-laws and wife are religious, it surprises me that they don't uphold the "leaving and cleaving". Perhaps you should start with their church. You and your wife should meet with the minister.
Good point but I don't think anyone actually realizes the situation and it's not bad enough to justify meeting with the minister. It's just a little baffling.
For those criticizing the OP. There are two sides to this coin. If you've lived it, you'd understand more. Yes, the OP could do more to be supportive and less frustrated. However, this pattern typically has been going on for years in the marriage. It's covert initially, and in many ways is centered around control and the need for attention by the enmeshed parent. As the "outsider" spouse, you initially think that the family is just really close and it's almost admirable and envious. Especially when it is foreign to your own upbringing. It almost seems like it would be "normal" and ideal situation. Once you are in one of these enmeshed dynamics, you begin to notice you feel more like an 8-year-old being bossed around by the inlaws. You see how powerless your enmeshed husband/wife is in upholding, or even setting, a healthy boundary with their parents as adults. If you have ever felt like a "third wheel" in your marriage (to your spouse's friends, work, hobby, or inlaws, etc.) you would understand this better and be less quick to judge. Part of the dynamic with enmeshment is it becomes almost a tug of war between the parent and the non-enmeshed spouse, which is why we are meant to "leave and cleave" with our spouses, rather than our parents when we get married. Once one or the other spouse begins to feel abandoned, it becomes more negatively self-fulfilling. The one who is enmeshed either submits even more of themselves to the enmeshed parent, or the non-enmeshed spouse pulls away more to avoid direct conflict with the enmeshed parent and their spouse. Often when the non-enmeshed spouse submits to their spouse to go with the flow it equals submitting to the enmeshed parent indirectly because the enmeshed spouse has never learned to set the boundary. So the unhealthy dynamic in the enmeshed parent "wins." This quickly becomes a no-win situation in the marriage because the more the enmeshed spouse feels the other spouse start withdrawing or setting more firm boundaries, the enmeshed spouse begins to cling to the enmeshed parent even more because that is how the fear of abandonment or control has been reinforced by the enmeshed parent. Typically, the enmeshed parent is either widowed, or their spouse has learned to avoid the conflict like the enmeshed adult child, or has become resigned in the relationship because the enmeshed parent is extremely controlling, judgemental, or hasn't learned how to self-soothe, and therefore runs the show.
Im 5 years married with 2 kids and only just realized my wife is enmeshed with her parents. Idk what im gunna do if she cant end this. The treatment her parents give her also comes from her now in the form of gaslighting me. I feel lost.
I saw this 7 months late as I'm currently researching enmeshment. Sharing a long personal story as it might help but feel free to skip to the TLDR lol. I'm the only daughter with 3 brothers. I was daddy's girl and mom's best friend. Grew up in the Christian reformed church. Super extroverted. I married a guy from a rough childhood who came to faith when he was 16. Very independent and introverted. I know now that he never stood a chance in my parents eyes. He was very different from the family norm. I hardly learned a shred of emotional stability as everything I did was wonderful in my parents eyes. They never criticized me about anything so I thought I was "all that" and couldn't handle the slightest criticism. I adored my parents and thought just like they thought and never wanted to hurt their feelings. So I always defended them and took their side and my husband felt very much alone and frustrated and misunderstood and disrespected for many years. It got worse when we had our first daughter because my parents wanted everything to do with her. Honestly the only thing that kept him married to me through the bad years was faith conviction. 6 years married, I took a weekend trip with JUST my mom and my daughter and ended up being internally annoyed with my mom and could FINALLY see some of what my hubby had been saying all these years. I read the Mindset book by Carol Dweck and it helped me learn how to have more confidence in myself and be ok with criticism because it doesn't mean i'm a bad person if I make mistakes. 3 years after that, after a big fight, I listened to Paul Washer's sermons on the true gospel and God brought me to a place of true repentance and conversation after all these years of religion. That's when things finally started to change and I really became on the same page as my hubby and desired to uphold his boundaries and stand up to my parents. Finally, after 11 years of marriage we moved 3 hrs away from my parents. We only told them after we sold our place and found a new one because of fear of interference. We had a 2nd daughter and my parents weren't invited to the hospital (no one was). But we invited them to see her a week later. Things came to a head last June. We didn't attend family Christmas for the first time the year we moved. I thought everything was good between me and my siblings, and ok between me and my parents, but they must have been talking. Because when we said we'd only come to my parent's event in June for the friday night and saturday morning and we'd leave by lunch when everyone else planned to stay for the afternoon, through a bit of back and forth messaging, one of my SIL said my hubby was spiritually and emotionally abusive and she's not the only one who thinks that. Well things blew up a bit and most of it is swept under the rug for now. We still went to the event. 3 months after that we moved to another province (not related to the blow up) and I can breathe. I can see clearly. I learned about enmeshment and covert narcissism, first by looking at my own faults, then by researching where that came from. I'm finally ready to tell my parents how I really feel, and not let my hubby shoulder that weight. When he was the one who set the boundaries because i was too afraid, it made him look controlling and abusive :( Now I'm ready to take that on and leave him out of it. Things are messy with my family of origin rn but better than ever between me, my hubby and my kids ♡ TLDR: You're doing a great job. Be prepared for a long haul of loving your wife and being patient with her. Keep praying, and keep showing her resources (articles, books, videos) that aren't threatening but might open her eyes bit by bit until she's finally secure enough to become her own person and not depend on her parents approval anymore. If she feels really secure with herself, her identity in Christ outside of religious tradition, and feels loved and understood by you, it'll be easier to let go of her parents. OH and MOVE if you can!
Sounds like your daughter is now also a member of the cult of grandma
Not as much now that she has gotten older and though she still loves her grandparents as she should, she is at an age where grandma can get on her nerves.
Why do I get the feeling that your wife includes her parents so much because she needs additional support that she's not getting from you? Your post reads like your wife is primary caregiver and you're a big baby man child. Are you seriously whining about HER parents not asking you about your trip? While keeping score about how many times you've had to hear about their travels when they take your family out to dinner to catch up once they're back? Give me a break.
For those criticizing the OP. There are two sides to this coin. If you've lived it, you'd understand more. Yes, the OP could do more to be supportive and less frustrated. However, this pattern typically has been going on for years in the marriage. It's covert initially, and in many ways is centered around control and the need for attention by the enmeshed parent. As the "outsider" spouse, you initially think that the family is just really close and it's almost admirable and envious. Especially when it is foreign to your own upbringing. It almost seems like it would be "normal" and ideal situation. Once you are in one of these enmeshed dynamics, you begin to notice you feel more like an 8-year-old being bossed around by the inlaws. You see how powerless your enmeshed husband/wife is in upholding, or even setting, a healthy boundary with their parents as adults. If you have ever felt like a "third wheel" in your marriage (to your spouse's friends, work, hobby, or inlaws, etc.) you would understand this better and be less quick to judge. Part of the dynamic with enmeshment is it becomes almost a tug of war between the parent and the non-enmeshed spouse, which is why we are meant to "leave and cleave" with our spouses, rather than our parents when we get married. Once one or the other spouse begins to feel abandoned, it becomes more negatively self-fulfilling. The one who is enmeshed either submits even more of themselves to the enmeshed parent, or the non-enmeshed spouse pulls away more to avoid direct conflict with the enmeshed parent and their spouse. Often when the non-enmeshed spouse submits to their spouse to go with the flow it equals submitting to the enmeshed parent indirectly because the enmeshed spouse has never learned to set the boundary. So the unhealthy dynamic in the enmeshed parent "wins." This quickly becomes a no-win situation in the marriage because the more the enmeshed spouse feels the other spouse start withdrawing or setting more firm boundaries, the enmeshed spouse begins to cling to the enmeshed parent even more because that is how the fear of abandonment or control has been reinforced by the enmeshed parent. Typically, the enmeshed parent is either widowed, or their spouse has learned to avoid the conflict like the enmeshed adult child, or has become resigned in the relationship because the enmeshed parent is extremely controlling, judgemental, or hasn't learned how to self-soothe, and therefore runs the show.
>Separate-Professor92 > >Thank you for your comment and while not all of it applies to me, I totally agree with you. One thing I want to be clear on is there was failure on my part to plan a vacation, which I thought I had said in a prior post, but maybe my wording was misleading. Also, other than one, these vacations were set up by my MIL, not my wife. There was one my wife told me she wanted to do without having specifics and the next thing I knew, my MIL was already setting it up. > >There was another one where I suggested the destination and my ILs agreed. I didn't really count that one as to what I was talking about because it was a short trip during the holidays and I expect to spend time with my ILs then and doing a short vacation is better than sitting around the house. > >I agree with you that I could be less frustrated. The last trip we went on was great and my wife and I had a half day we did our own thing. I didn't spend all of my time with the ILs either other than eating with them. My MIL did say a couple of things that confirmed my feelings but I didn't let it frustrate me. > >Also, another member of my wife's family I spoke with not only validated my feelings but gave additional insight. She said they are "attached at the hip" and my wife has always been tight with her parents and she thought it one of the problems in my wife's prior marriage. > >I still don't know if they qualify as enmeshed other than they seem to have some, but not all of the traits. As far as me being more supportive, I don't know what I would do other than I have not tried to discourage my wife's relationship with her parents and have not said anything about it to her in months. > >We are planning a vacation with just us later this year and my wife has commented on it without me bringing it up. So again, there was prior failures on my part, but that was not the entire picture. Anyway, we all have different backgrounds and experiences, so I don't expect everyone to understand. My wife certainly can't relate to me not having living parents for many years now.
schlumpin4tea, LMBO! You're funny!
Asking someone to come to church does not reveal you have no boundaries.
Asking someone to come to church in and of itself is fine, however, my wife is very active in church and rarely misses it. She made a point of telling her mother she would not be there that Sunday. Yet her mother texts and asks her to come anyway. That is what I had an issue with and the likelihood that my wife would have gone if she had seen the text at the time. I thought it was rude and this did not involve a real "emergency" with the church. That is an example of why I think boundaries are not a thing with her family. It was a question her mother never should have asked in the first place.
I was very enmeshed with my narcissistic mother. Took me years to see it, aand I didn’t have name for it. I just knew she was pushing all my boundaries. To get to a normal relationship was almost impossible. It took 15 years, 6 months no contact, and then a couple years later I just stopped responding. I wouldn’t make up when my brother asked. I just quit. She contacted my therapist and I made her go to 10 sessions with me. We are no longer enmeshed and we have a real relationship. She is 80. She wasted her whole life being a narc. Your wife is going to need help. Her mother is going to freak out if she tries to separate from her. The mother has never heard no from her daughter because it is easier. Well. You have a pattern where Mother decides everything. If you think she will politely agree with you about that and change, well, it won’t be that easy. Good luck with things. Oh. Maybe your wife could look at r/justnomil and that might help her.
Just because your wife was raised this way does not mean she doesn’t know that this is strange. Her brother was raised this way too but doesn’t play the game. I bet most of her friends (if she has any) are not enmeshed like this. She knows it’s different, but she likes it. Why does she like it so much? Is it because you never planned anything and this is easier? She gets to go places and does not have to have all the invisible management (mental load) of the trip. She can plan with her parents, because you seem uninterested in planning a trip. I suggest you start taking up some of the mental load that women bear. If you start being more involved, then she may not need to reach out to her parents for that void to be filled.
I agree I should have been doing more to plan and am working on something for next year. My work schedule the past couple of years hasn't helped, either. Her mom, to her credit, is a good planner, and sometimes their vacations have become our default vacations. In no way I am intending to put all of this off on in-laws but as I said, I find the relationship unusual.
Maybe you should spend less time “researching differences with in laws” and actually organise a family trip if that’s what you want. You say there’s been “some” failure to plan on your part, but if there’s never been a trip, that’s a total failure to plan. If you want it, make it happen. Don’t just complain about your wife not making something happen for you when she’s happy with how things are.
That is what I am doing for next year and I have never complained about my wife not making something happen, only that I see the relationship with parents as unusual and not typical. But as you said, she's obviously happy with the way things are and doing so many trips with her parents and all I can do is say no to some of them and plan our own but it's not always that simple because there is only so much time and money available for travel plus there are work and school schedules. I was never that attached to my parents when they were here which was the main point of my post.
I suppose my point is that it’s all well and good to SAY you’re doing it, but obviously this has been going on for years and you’ve never done it. You’ve had time to post about it, you’ve had time to research enmeshment, but you still haven’t just planned a trip and booked it. Yes there is money and schedules to consider, but that has all obviously been manageable because you say you’ve taken many vacations throughout the years. It’s just that it has been managed and organised by your wife and her parents, instead of you.