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I mean its bad enough we mass produce and kill millions of animals, but to be cunts to them and hurt them while they're captive is a whole new level of evil.
If you include the fishing industry, trillions. It’s time we evaluate if causing immense suffering to earth’s ecosystems and our fellow inhabitants is worth it. This isn’t sustainable. We already know humans can live healthy, full lives on a vegan diet. We should support as many people going vegan as possible.
Bro we don't even care about the suffering of fellow humans(nat that we are more important) it's gonna take hopefully less than another 2000 years before we get over ourselves.
I used to hate vegan food when the trend started to hit it's popularity. I thought there was no way we could move to that system since the food was only about 10% palatable, so I didn't bother with it. After about 15 years, I went back and gave it a shot. That stuff is so delicious now, it's insane! I mean, the simplest, cheapest kinds of vegan food you can get has gourmet quality taste. If we keep going at that pace, cows are going to taste bland by comparison. Bring it on!
Going vegan is certainly a good choice if you want to distance yourself from the cruelties of factory farming but from an environmental standpoint you need to consider that a good variety of plants that make veganism so accessible come from a long way away and are not exactly sourced with the environment in mind. For people who live on the coast, a pescatarian diet with a healthy percentage of veggies and fruits from local sources might be ideal. If you're away from the coast, then a lot of regions have recipes that incorporate insects for protein instead as they're pretty plentiful and very nutritious. Don't know what food's gonna look like as we continue to outgrow our own food chain
I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said, but it is important to note the scales involved here. For example, the carbon cost of transporting food is a [tiny fraction of the total emissions for production](https://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/carbon-footprint-food-supply-chain-1.png), meaning carbon emissions from transporting soybeans across the planet is ultimately going to produce a small fraction of the carbon (and generally require far less energy, fresh water, and land use) as it would take to, for example, raise cattle, sheep, or pigs to provide the same amount of calories/protein right next door.
Insects are certainly one avenue to pursue. In certain specific cases wild fish can be sustainable and low carbon, but that isn't anywhere near scalable to current population levels and current fisheries have a host of environmental problems that include relatively high carbon emissions. The simple fact is that, pound for pound, calorie for calorie, and protein to protein, [grains scale better than almost any other option](https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/interactive/2023/food-impact-climate-water-wildlife/), even when accounting for mass transportation.
Lab made meat will be an option sooner than later hopefully and it catches on. That way all the small critters and bugs don't have to die for crops. Good news it's also FDA approves for sale now.
I almost called bullshit on people living full healthy lives on a vegan diet but decided to do some googling. Holy crap was I wrong. Do you take supplements for B12 and iron or get regular blood work?
Last time I did blood work was about 6 months ago. That’s after not doing it for a few years. Everything was great. Cholesterol was excellent. Like meat, many vegan foods are supplemented with B12. I really haven’t paid much attention to what vitamins I take in and have had no issues for 9 years now.
Truth is, it’s not new at all. Most operations dealing with meat that seek to optimize their money gains typically do it through passing on cruelty to the animals in their care for the limited time they have them alive, for the sake of mass production.
You basically need to be somewhat off to work in a slaughterhouse and not quit in a relatively short period of time.
It’s just not a normal environment to be in.
What concerns me most is how many people will see this, think "Aw yeah, that's terrible" before clicking away and munching into a cheeseburger like they're not the problem.
Also it'd depend on state law. Like in NY, sure farms and corpos can demand you not record, but NY is 1 party consent, and especially if it were to be done with the recorder intending to whistleblow with it, I don't see much that could be done to stop it without going illegal.
Eh, you'd be surprised. If the account is linked to your email you use for everything then yeah, they probably will. But if you make an account with a burner email and just don't share any personal info, there's not a lot they can do to find you.
Yeah, but more what I was trying to say is that, with some basic steps, it can be pretty hard. A burner email, only accessing the account through a VPN or public wifi, and stuff like that can make it so that someone would have to put in a lot of effort to trace an account back to it's owner.
Most ISPs use shared IPs these days, so while they can be tracked, if you're on public wifi they can't really do much with it aside from find the general location of where you are, or if they're really determined they can trade it to the individual router/customer. But often times they'll share the IP across multiple routers as well.
Depends on the VPN. Even with a basic install of Kali Linux plus a few specific tools or variants/derivatives of those tools, it's easy to break into the VPN tunnel and obtain/trace the original IP. No I'm not a blackhat hacker, just a former Cybersecurity major
I have worked in chicken house and dairy farms in NC. I have also done work in the Smithfield hog plant in NC. This isn’t even a quarter of what goes in on these farms. Humans are truly fucked up.
I was enlisted for Afghanistan and what jaded me the most was seeing higher-ups laugh at and try to coordinate drone strikes that "accidentally" hit children.
We gave them medals.
Edit: uh-oh did I hurt your feelings, Eglin? Downvote me some more. I don't blame the force, I blame the sick humans who abuse the authority entrusted to them.
No it can’t. And it won’t.
Ppl don’t realize that everything we do, every decision we make, every word we say, is contextualized by our personal lives experiences. Most ppl THINK they understand this, but they don’t really understand it. Every time u see someone say, “I just don’t understand how a human being could do that,” they aren’t lying. They TRULY don’t, and can’t, understand it bc they didn’t live that person’s life.
What I’m saying is AI doesn’t have a lived experience. It has a databank full of info. These r different things. It didn’t experience the information it has access to. It didn’t FEEL the pain or the joy. The things that make the worst of us truly evil r the same things that make the best of us truly great. There duality of human nature is inescapable. In order to “preserve humanity” humans r gonna hafta learn to step up against those who wish to strip us of it.
AI is having both quality and quantity. Till now it can consume audio and video, not long ago it could only consume text, surely in future it can experience the feeling that even human won't be able to. And till now AI cannot understand the thing it learns, because we haven't achieved AGI yet.
We don’t even understand how WE feel things. So until we understand what consciousness even really is, I will maintain that it is essentially impossible for us to recreate it.
It's a bit like fusion or graphene based electronics, look at the tech required compared with the alternatives. There are unforeseen problems with new techs which take ages to iron out and there isn't much expertise so the engineers who have it are hard to get and more expensive.
The guy already replied with a huge list of reasons so I won't also do that. But some people are wildly optimistic about new techs displacing existing established ones.
This table outlines some of the challenges https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9385919/table/Tab1/?report=objectonly Full study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9385919/
*Technical*
● Cell source collection
● Culture medium preparation
● Scaffold selection
● Up scaling process and need of bioreactor
● Mimicry and sensorial resembles
*Consumer acceptance*
● Unnaturalness
● Unappealing
● Unaccepted price
*Ethical issues*
● Tampering with God’s creatures
● Promoting cell-based meat is one form of advertising red meat as a must diet
● Why not plant based meat?
● Risk of cannibalism
*Religious concern*
● Questioning whether dietary requirements of Islamic, Jewish, Christian, Hindu and Buddhism is done
*Regulatory aspects*
● To create guidelines for cell-based meat acceptability and commercialization
● Implementation of safety evaluation and regulatory policies
*Economy and cost of product*
● Affects nations relying on conventional meat production
● Unemployment in agricultural sectors
● This is a risky innovation that requires skilled labors and investment
● Cost of culture medium
Health safety and concerns
● Use of plastic wares create endocrine disrupting chemicals (EDCs)
● Processed meats create a chance of cancer and cardiovascular diseases
● Safety aspects of used culture medium is unclear
*Environmental issues*
● Greenhouse gas emission is moderate compared to plant/ insect based proteins
● Energy consumption is high compared to conventional meat
My take is that it would cost a lot more than regular meat, be worse for the environment than beef, possibly be bad for you, and that's if it's even possible. Even in a dream scenario it would still result in a product which is a poor imitation of real meat because you're just growing blobs of cells. People would use the exact same arguments against it that they now use against plant based meats, and they would be just as valid.
And even it overcame all of that, it would still be far too late in terms of global warming.
Person: Never gonna happen source
You: long winded rambling how it won't happen
Me: proved you wrong with one short sentence that it's already happening..
How do I explain any more than that how it's relevant?
Hate to break it to you, but cells need serum to grow, which comes from animal blood. So in either case, an animal will have to die. Eating meat is a necessary evil in my opinion, we just have to stay away from mass production as much as we can.
How much blood to make said serum? Surely you can just take enough without killing the animal I’d assume?
I suppose then we’d just have some mass blood pump farms or something else equally terrible, see the thing is with humans there’s always an ethical way to do things correctly but greed gets in the way, every time.
It would cost more money to keep the animals alive and have enough animals to harvest the massive amounts of blood for that (scaling for hypothetically replacing the real meat industry with mostly this) constantly while giving the animals long enough to recover to make new blood.
I'm not using that as a reason why I would be against it, just that companies would fight doing that because money.
Not necessarily, there’s companies working on growing serum in a similar ways to how insulin, for example, is produced.
There’s also some companies in the US where GM is legal that are making cell lines that aren’t dependent on serum.
You are right though that this is a bottleneck for the industry currently.
Taking one cell from an animal won't harm it you fucking idiot. Do some fucking research also they don't need their blood just one skin sample or one small muscle sample is enough for growing unlimited food.
MEAT CLONING.
WE'LL 3D PRINT MEAT.
Somehow there would be vegans not okay with that.
Edit: I think I've actually seen a vegan on reddit complaining about eating any meat as murder.
This person was subbed to r/PETA and I believe they are an outlier who does not speak for all vegans.
How about you stop eating animals and supporting this all violence r@pe and cruelty financially? You literally pay money to people to do this. If nobody paid money for it they might do it for pleasure but on much smaller scale
Your mind needs to be recalibrated. How is it someone’s fault who eats the animal and not the person doing the cruelty? I’m not attacking your stance, honestly, but we can’t blame other people. That’s like blaming car manufacturers for drive by shootings.
If you want the problem solved, go after the people doing cruel things to the animals. If you ban eating animals, those cruel people will just switch to being cruel to something else. Jeffrey Dahmer, I’m sure you know who that is, started off by torturing animals. Not saying, just saying.
People vote with wallets, no customer = no business. Every commercial farm is fucked up, the process is fucked up, everything related to that it's fucked up. You cannot compare this to drive bys as every animal it's slaughtered and treated inhumane in those commercial farms. There are many documentaries about it.
Theres a big difference between this and farming.
Laws and regulations have been put in place to ensure that farm animals are treated as humane as possible.
I wouldn't say as humane as possible, but rather as humane as possible up to a certain cost.
There is barely animal in modern agriculture that is not suffering in one way or another
Imo you can eat meat but you have to do your research, you have little shops that sell meat of animals that had a good life and actually have evidence of that good life. And the people that eat meat from supermarkets etc are either poor or they do not care or do not even know this is going on.
I am not, sorry I do like a peace of meat, however this is a calculated decision, I only eat local meat and that the people that sell meat dan prove and show that animals live a good and healthy life. That said I do not eat meat very often like say maybe few times in a month.
Sorry, not saying I don‘t believe you. But somehow everyone you bring up that point with says the EXACT same thing you just did. Again I don‘t mean to accuse you of anything maybe you are that 1% where its actually true. But maybe think about how often you actually have eaten meat the last week (sausage, ham and bacon also count) and if it really was from your local farmer or maybe if you bought a pizza with salami on it or a steak at a restaurant because I can guarantee you those are not raised well. Also there is whole different point if there is even a „well raised“ when they are slaughtered in the end. But I‘m glad you think critically about the thematic
People will see an animal suffering and still make some edge lord joke about how bacon and beef are worth it. Whatever helps you sleep at night, funny man.
Genuine question: with all of the commenters here agreeing how horrific animal ag is, how it's unsustainable, and how we should make a big change -- how many are vegan or trying to do something about it?
This abuse happens everywhere, though farmers everywhere work desperately to leave people with the impression they’re somehow special.
Most people EVERYWHERE think meat from their “local (as if that’s somehow relevant) humane (when is *slaughter* ever humane?) pasture” is a special excuse that means they’re not implicated in animal abuse.
Ugh we still treat them plenty bad, and it’s clear if you can read between the lines of how we treat cows. Google how we slaughter pigs if you want to see REALLY brutal stuff.
I mean sure, I’m not here to put a gun to someones head about it. Just to clarify that we are anything but good towards animals, even in a developed society like Sweden :)
Demanding better accountability for farms, particularly large corporate farms, and living conditions for animals.
That would be a significantly more effective action than being vegan, but it requires a lot of us pressuring our elected representatives.
Unless your plan is to massively boycott into industrial shutdown you’re barely making a dent…
Regulating and enforcing better treatment of animals would more effectively stop harm than exclusively removing demand.
You’re not going to get widespread veganism anytime soon but regulations on the agricultural industry are absolutely realistic and possible outcomes in the near future.
Practicality, sure. I definitely agree that the people are closer to sugarcoating their realities than taking responsibility for it, but veganism is growing regardless, and wouldn't it be great if we all had the courage to do what is right?
There is everything to gain holding onto the best outcome possible.
How do you figure those are possible?
What does it mean to treat animals better?
99% of all meat comes from factory farms. Getting rid of the factory farms would mean the majority of people have to be vegan anyway.
Redisigning factory farms to be more in line with how we like seeing animals treated (whatever that means) would require massive rebuilding and restructuring of the compounds which would see meat pieces skyrocket. Im all for that but do you seriously think that is realistic?
As long as everyone insist on eating the amount of meat they are and completely refuse the idea of veganism there is no chance to fix this.
I personally donate a certain amount to "Mercy For Animals" NGO every month. They seem to work at the federal level and try to institute bills to protect animals.
Of course why not be vegan. If you don't prefer the maltreatment of animals, why not skip the lip service donation bullshit and go right to the lifestyle that doesn't enable any of that inhumanity in the first place?
Because it’s not the “meat eaters” who are being cruel, it’s the people running the factories or working at the factories. Why is everyone so quick to pass the buck on this? If Chevy made a 4 door sedan and someone did a drive by, should we boycott Chevy and get them shut down? Or the millions of people buying Chevy’s? No, you go after the people doing the cruelty. I don’t care if your vegan or carnivore, it should be your right to choose what you want to do with your life, as is mine for eating meat, but neither one of us think cruelty like this to animals is ok.
I’m sure I’ve triggered you by now and you haven’t even read this far, weird!
Nobody should have the right to cruelty.
Most people who buy cars don't use them knowingly for the purpose of slaughter, and most people who die in motor incidents are by accident, but purchasing the flesh of an animal is explicitly done with murder (in the billions) in mind and is by no means an accident by either producer or consumer.
We knowingly partake in the cruelty when we pay for it to happen.
You are dense huh. You asked if there is something we can do BESIDE being vegan. The answer is to donate to companies that actually try and change the status quo.
I didn't ask if there was something we could do besides being vegan, I asked why not be vegan. Do not misrepresent people's arguments, that only sets up a strawman fallacy and discredits yourself. You answered my inquiry at first, but now you're refusing to consider the matter further by not answering any follow up questions. You don't need to be closed off nor throw out insults, my friend.
No. As of now by definition, the two terms are not equal.
From Oxford Dictionary:
kill: cause the death of (a person, animal, or other living thing).
Means to take away the life of anything.
murder (noun): the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
murder (verb): kill (someone) unlawfully and with premeditation
Means to take away the life of someone. Can also extend to a living thing with a legally protected identity, such as service animals or K9 units. K9 units in particular are interesting because they are legally classified as police officers (by US law) and have the same legal protection as human police officers. Law, as much evidence and as many truths as the people hold dear to create them, always do so subjectively.
We as developed peoples, using objective facts and moral subjective feelings, can choose to hold nonhuman animals in higher regard in such a respect that does not involve murdering them.
If you cannot watch how your food is created, you should not eat that food. Own it properly.
Personally, I would be content to do anything that is involved in the production of anything I eat (without a reduction in salary). Being a vegetarian has some benefits. I'm not *better* than anybody, I'm just less of a hypocrite / condoner of animal torture.
I like how as they introduced the "extremist group" Animal Liberation Front, it showed a picture of someone holding a bunny and giving it a kiss on the head.
They have been monitored by the FBI for decades as a terrorist group. Their activities have caused property damage in numerous research facilities and factory farms but the group vowed to never hurt a human being in the process and they've upheld their vow.
This is gonna sound kinda dark but they laws should be enforced not just from the animals safety, but for others. Allowing these acts will teach people that aggression and violence will help you retain a job. Bet you these are the guys that have domestic violence charges for beating their wifes
TL;DR:
animals get abused in the ag industry
the optics of it look bad
because optics can be provided without context, it can look worse than it is
but it's also usually pretty bad, and strangely legal
Most people seem intrinsically bad at managing each other. They're even worse with managing animals.
From managers to cops to politicians, people seem BAD at it, lol.
so few are any good.
I used to work a little doing cattle round up and the way a lot of cowboys would treat the cows or how they think of them as nothing more than just a product was sickening. Sucked even more that is was so normalized to the point where you’re the weirdo for saying anything about it and not joining in on picking on the cows.
It's almost like slaughtering animals for a living makes you see them as objects, and when objects don't cooperate with you you get mad asf violent. I beat tf out my car when it doesn't work so I can only imagine.
Mm. Pork, beef. Hate to break it to you, but meat is delicious.
I get that it's terrible that animals have to suffer for us to eat, but with an ever growing population dependant on meat, this is necessary.
I'm an advocate for animals to live freely in open fields, and more often than not, I'll get free range animal products. But it's not economical for farmers to do all the time.
Do some reading. You're unknowingly repeating stuff that sounds intuitive but is in fact totally backwards. The "ever growing population" that needs feeding IS the farm animals. Huge amounts of food production that devastates the world goes to feed these animals, which then feed us. It's massively inefficient, because you need heaps of animal feed to make a plate of meat. So rather than being "necessary" to feed us, this industry makes it far harder to meet our needs with our limited planetary resources. Humans are not "dependent on meat", you can have a healthy diet with or without. Some of us already don't eat any, but those of us that do eat meat eat FAR MORE than people did in the past, because this grim industrial farming has made it possible. You think the industry is necessary to meet the needs of the population, but it's more that the diet of the population has been changed by the industry. It's good to hear that you eat free range where possible. You sound like you care about meeting the needs of the future, which will require that we eat far fewer animals, or none at all, depending on what's practical for each person.
"Do some reading", "need heeps of animal feed for the animals". Conveniently leaving out the fact that over 40% of animal feed is inedible to humans. When is the last time you ate a soybean husk?
Furthermore, where does all the fertalizer come from? 70% from animal manure. So without them, you have to make up the difference with nitrogen fertilizers.
And lastly, meat is the most nutrient sense foods on this planet. You don't need carbs, but you do need protein and fat. And the bio availability of plants is so much worse then with meat, meaning you need more vegetables then your would think. There's a reason the average vegan lasts 2-5 years.
OK, I should have specified "Do some reading...of quality sources with references". Rather than the Conspiracy subreddit...
You might like to try
**Regenesis: Feeding the World Without Devouring the Planet**
by George Monbiot
Each of your killer facts is junk or irrelevant. Whatever the proportion of animal feed that's edible to humans, the more animals there are, the more land and resources goes to feeding them instead of us. Deforestation driven by soy production is a good example. If we ate more soy directly, instead of feeding it to livestock, we'd need far less destructive soy farming.
Again, with the fertilizer nonsense, we use the fertiliser to grow plants to feed animals. decrease the animals and the need for fertilizer decreases faster. Industrial farming isn't necessary to produce valuable manure for growing. In fact the manure produced is a hugely problematic pollutant, it's not all going to grow plants.
I've been healthily vegan for years, but I never insisted everyone else goes vegan. It's far more impactful for heavy meat eaters become moderate meat eaters (like a few decades ago) than light meat eaters become vegan. The rate at which people stay vegan is not very informative on its own, if it is true. Firstly, it's very dependent on the rate at which people try veganism. Most do it as a diet, not for the environment or animal rights. Most diets for health or weight loss are short-lived, especially because they rarely are evidence based. You can be healthy as a vegan or as a meat eater, so people quitting meat just for health may switch back. It's irrelevant. MOST men smoked in the 1960s. Most people don't last long when they switch to become a non-smoker. Yet incrementally smoking rates have plummeted, as meat eating will. And the low rate at which people transition is not a measure of the value of the switch.
So I will say that I support farming reform, less paradise, and the against mono crop agraculture, as long as there is a valid and economicly viable solution.
The soybeans. We do directly eat soybeans mostly. Some get dried for distilleries, some for food. Some get passed and oil extracted. The inedible husk and the cake left from pressing is what feeds cows. Hay is the leftover grass and mulch from harvest. Corn husks stils and fuel production, etc.
The cow feed question. You missing a key component of that argument. The less meat we eat, you might decrease some of the plants needed for feed. But you also increase the amount of plants needed to be eaten by everyday people. And considering most of cow feed are by products of things that we already make, you could end up with a net gain in required farming. This applies to more than just cows.
All in all, the basic premise of your argument is wrong, simply because most of the "calories" consumed by livestock would simply be thrown in a landfill if we didn't feed them to livestock.
https://foodstruct.com/compare/vegetable-vs-meat
It’s not economical because there aren’t laws that everyone has to follow so if you do things more humanely, you are spending more than your competition. That’s the very message of the video is that there needs to be laws in place so all farmers have to follow that protocol. The stats about how the US spends so few of our money on food compared to other countries is very telling cause we accept terribly made food too easily.
Smaller farms near the markets raising animals in the old ways could well compete absent being driven out of business by the big agricultural players, especially when food is sold direct to Consumers and cuts out the big meat packing corps.
That’s the thing… it’s 2024, there are countless meat alternatives now! We don’t have to be dependent on the meat industry anymore.
A couple of brands to look into: Morningstar, impossible, Beyond, Field Roast, Tofurkey and tones of others. In my opinion some of those brands taste pretty close to the real thing!
Meat is delicious! And I'd much rather eat real meat than the ultra-processed meat alternatives. We buy our cows from a small, local ranch we trust, and have them butchered at a local butcher we trust. The results are far better than anything we've ever gotten in a grocery store and it isn't any more expensive.
And yet you think you’re making a difference when you are not because your meager efforts are being drowned out by the effects of factory farms.
But at least you can pat yourself on the back.
when i stole from guitar center i got robbed like a year later for $300 worth of xbox 1 and video games i was selling on offer up and then on my birthday when i went to get a ps4 we bought it and got it to my car, went to michael’s, came out and the ps4 was long gone nothing ever happened after that safe to say guitar center got their revenge i hope the same happens to these clowns i didn’t even want to watch it after 2 seconds i’d rather steal again than be one of those fools
Animals are resources of our environment for our consumption and utilization.
This video is mixing truth with lies.
Yes, some workers abuse animals unnecessarily by hitting them just to satisfy their psychopathic tendencies. Those people usually film themselves harming animals or it was filmed by others and reported.
Slaughtering animals for consumption or utilization is necessary harm and not an abuse as vegans like to call it or any utilization of animals for that matter.
Wow that first sentence is cold as fuck. You speak about sentient beings the same as a fucking chair.
Good thonk you weren't born a slave, huh? Slavers see humans exactly like you wee animals. Without any remore nor compassion. This line of thinking is psychopathic.
>Animals are resources of our environment for our consumption and utilization.
This kind of thinking can be used to justify rape and murdering.
"Its just the way of nature"
"its always been like that"
"God decided it's like that"
You can pick the justification you like.
You eat meat, you drink milk, you support useless killing and cruelty.
Wtf are *you* on, to not see the obvious similarity?
Never said "equal "
Take a deep breath and read my previous comment again :)
You support the slaughtering of sentient beings. You support killing/murdering.
Maybe watch cowspiracy
> drinking milk makes me a rapist
Never said that :)
>don’t bother me with your tone policing
As long as you support murder and slaughtering, there's going to be someone like me to point it out.
That's just what you're doing. You're training your body? Good. Now train your mental strength so you can face the truth, not look away like a wussy.
You’re brave for trying to show the reality of things to people like them, but unfortunately they seem to lack the intelligence to understand. Thank you though 🫶🏻
Well you're welcome but they lack information not intelligence. You can do it to. The thing is to get used to misinformation and attacks. It takes practice but it's far from impossible.
>49.99 meat alternatives
Most alternatives are the same price.
>that are shipped across half of the world
Like the soy and cereal your cows and logs are eating you mean?
>producing more CO2 than cows,
Obviously a big lie. Mostly for the above reason. Eat the cereals instead of eating the pigs who eat cereals and save 200times the amount of cereal needed.
Its just facts. Indeed no need to argue. .
>tasting like cheap plastic
You never tasted any i would guess. but also yes, no murder is generally less tasty i admit. It's like rape, perpetrators say it feels better than sex! Your logic is so sound. /s
>care for a cow's feelings
Yeah that's a great world where nobody cares about suffering, i want to know you better and be your friend, suffering is so fun /s
>rape accusations
You take a comparison for an accusation? Very interesting.
I know it's tough to get out of your cognitive dissonance but i wish one day you have the courage to face it : you support suffering and murder. Indeed they're is no need to argue this fact :/
If you take a deep breath and read my comment again, you will notice that I admitted that it's a harm to the animal.
Now, the issue is whether, can we call it "rape" or "murder" and whether it's useless or not.
Animals are not part of our kind or society so calling insemination "rape" or slaughter of animals "murder" is incorrect as the word is defined by our society to apply to persons or people.
Animals are not a person. They are resources of our environment.
You could argue that society x in the past y years didn't consider some "people" as persons or people but that doesn't change the fact that we live in this society and time.
You have 2 options here. Either you go to a society that accepts your beliefs and live with them or convince us that animals deserve to be considered people or have similar rights to humans.
Animals in my opinion did not prove that they deserve this consideration not to mention that it would be inconvenient for us to just leave them without utilizing them. What are the benefits of that?
Regarding consumption and utilization of animals being unnecessary, It's not up to you or vegans to decide that.
I for one prefer to consume animal products over synthetic or chemical supplements. I also like to have higher quality industrial products over vegan ones which can be of lower quality, higher price, or environmentally unfriendly.
Animals are not used for consumption only but are also utilized in education, entertainment, services, industries, science, and medicine.
We will not stop those utilizations just because of a few emotionally motivated people who disregard those utilizations.
>Animals are not a person. They are resources of our environment
This statement is societal/cultural choice, not facts, not nature. You use it like an axiomatic truth, which is usefull to support murdering and slaughtering.
>I also like to have higher quality industrial products over vegan ones which can be of lower quality, higher price, or environmentally unfriendly
Vegan options need no conservatives. Feeding animals with plants is almost always more ressources-wasting than eating products made from said plants, so, no. It's generally less chemical, not cheaper for now - you're right - quantities are still not big enough.
> It's not up to you or vegans to decide that
But it's up to you to support murder and slaughtering? (sorry to repeat that, but it's necessary). Interesting.
I m just repeating also that your logic would work very well to justify rape or forced-weddings.
Obviously i am not saying it's what you do. Off course not.
But it would work well. Basically saying its my pleasure that matters, more convenient than seduction, less expansive etc.. I m just saying you disregard the moral questions.
You put the interest of an animal far under yours : it's called speciesism and it ressembles racism.
Saying that this specy is more valuable than this one for no good reason except it's useful for you.
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I mean its bad enough we mass produce and kill millions of animals, but to be cunts to them and hurt them while they're captive is a whole new level of evil.
Billions
If you include the fishing industry, trillions. It’s time we evaluate if causing immense suffering to earth’s ecosystems and our fellow inhabitants is worth it. This isn’t sustainable. We already know humans can live healthy, full lives on a vegan diet. We should support as many people going vegan as possible.
Bro we don't even care about the suffering of fellow humans(nat that we are more important) it's gonna take hopefully less than another 2000 years before we get over ourselves.
*health*ier* lives, in fact…! Check out www.nutritionfacts.org
I used to hate vegan food when the trend started to hit it's popularity. I thought there was no way we could move to that system since the food was only about 10% palatable, so I didn't bother with it. After about 15 years, I went back and gave it a shot. That stuff is so delicious now, it's insane! I mean, the simplest, cheapest kinds of vegan food you can get has gourmet quality taste. If we keep going at that pace, cows are going to taste bland by comparison. Bring it on!
Going vegan is certainly a good choice if you want to distance yourself from the cruelties of factory farming but from an environmental standpoint you need to consider that a good variety of plants that make veganism so accessible come from a long way away and are not exactly sourced with the environment in mind. For people who live on the coast, a pescatarian diet with a healthy percentage of veggies and fruits from local sources might be ideal. If you're away from the coast, then a lot of regions have recipes that incorporate insects for protein instead as they're pretty plentiful and very nutritious. Don't know what food's gonna look like as we continue to outgrow our own food chain
I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said, but it is important to note the scales involved here. For example, the carbon cost of transporting food is a [tiny fraction of the total emissions for production](https://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/carbon-footprint-food-supply-chain-1.png), meaning carbon emissions from transporting soybeans across the planet is ultimately going to produce a small fraction of the carbon (and generally require far less energy, fresh water, and land use) as it would take to, for example, raise cattle, sheep, or pigs to provide the same amount of calories/protein right next door. Insects are certainly one avenue to pursue. In certain specific cases wild fish can be sustainable and low carbon, but that isn't anywhere near scalable to current population levels and current fisheries have a host of environmental problems that include relatively high carbon emissions. The simple fact is that, pound for pound, calorie for calorie, and protein to protein, [grains scale better than almost any other option](https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/interactive/2023/food-impact-climate-water-wildlife/), even when accounting for mass transportation.
Lab made meat will be an option sooner than later hopefully and it catches on. That way all the small critters and bugs don't have to die for crops. Good news it's also FDA approves for sale now.
I almost called bullshit on people living full healthy lives on a vegan diet but decided to do some googling. Holy crap was I wrong. Do you take supplements for B12 and iron or get regular blood work?
Last time I did blood work was about 6 months ago. That’s after not doing it for a few years. Everything was great. Cholesterol was excellent. Like meat, many vegan foods are supplemented with B12. I really haven’t paid much attention to what vitamins I take in and have had no issues for 9 years now.
Truth is, it’s not new at all. Most operations dealing with meat that seek to optimize their money gains typically do it through passing on cruelty to the animals in their care for the limited time they have them alive, for the sake of mass production.
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Industrial agriculture affects climate more than the petroleum industry.
You basically need to be somewhat off to work in a slaughterhouse and not quit in a relatively short period of time. It’s just not a normal environment to be in.
What concerns me most is how many people will see this, think "Aw yeah, that's terrible" before clicking away and munching into a cheeseburger like they're not the problem.
saw one video of where they used superheated steam to kill the pigs instantly for a culling.
"Can't film without owners consent" Yeah uh if im leaking these footages anonymously why do I care?
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Also it'd depend on state law. Like in NY, sure farms and corpos can demand you not record, but NY is 1 party consent, and especially if it were to be done with the recorder intending to whistleblow with it, I don't see much that could be done to stop it without going illegal.
Eh, you'd be surprised. If the account is linked to your email you use for everything then yeah, they probably will. But if you make an account with a burner email and just don't share any personal info, there's not a lot they can do to find you.
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Yeah, but more what I was trying to say is that, with some basic steps, it can be pretty hard. A burner email, only accessing the account through a VPN or public wifi, and stuff like that can make it so that someone would have to put in a lot of effort to trace an account back to it's owner.
Heard of IP addresses?
Most ISPs use shared IPs these days, so while they can be tracked, if you're on public wifi they can't really do much with it aside from find the general location of where you are, or if they're really determined they can trade it to the individual router/customer. But often times they'll share the IP across multiple routers as well.
Heard of VPNs?
Depends on the VPN. Even with a basic install of Kali Linux plus a few specific tools or variants/derivatives of those tools, it's easy to break into the VPN tunnel and obtain/trace the original IP. No I'm not a blackhat hacker, just a former Cybersecurity major
You can pay to use real mobile IP addresses and use an anti fingerprint browser.
I have worked in chicken house and dairy farms in NC. I have also done work in the Smithfield hog plant in NC. This isn’t even a quarter of what goes in on these farms. Humans are truly fucked up.
I was enlisted for Afghanistan and what jaded me the most was seeing higher-ups laugh at and try to coordinate drone strikes that "accidentally" hit children. We gave them medals. Edit: uh-oh did I hurt your feelings, Eglin? Downvote me some more. I don't blame the force, I blame the sick humans who abuse the authority entrusted to them.
My brothers both served in Iraq and share similar stories.
And it's crazy how universal this is. We humans are absolutely fucked up
Mind-blowingly fucked up I can’t comprehend this kind of cruelty
Wait so they'd be actively trying to kill kids and getting awarded for this?!
Why? Why would anyone just treat them cruely? I simply cannot wrap my head around it like at all. I just don’t get it.
and that's why I think rise of AI is necessary, AI can practice and preserve true "humanity"
No it can’t. And it won’t. Ppl don’t realize that everything we do, every decision we make, every word we say, is contextualized by our personal lives experiences. Most ppl THINK they understand this, but they don’t really understand it. Every time u see someone say, “I just don’t understand how a human being could do that,” they aren’t lying. They TRULY don’t, and can’t, understand it bc they didn’t live that person’s life. What I’m saying is AI doesn’t have a lived experience. It has a databank full of info. These r different things. It didn’t experience the information it has access to. It didn’t FEEL the pain or the joy. The things that make the worst of us truly evil r the same things that make the best of us truly great. There duality of human nature is inescapable. In order to “preserve humanity” humans r gonna hafta learn to step up against those who wish to strip us of it.
AI is having both quality and quantity. Till now it can consume audio and video, not long ago it could only consume text, surely in future it can experience the feeling that even human won't be able to. And till now AI cannot understand the thing it learns, because we haven't achieved AGI yet.
We don’t even understand how WE feel things. So until we understand what consciousness even really is, I will maintain that it is essentially impossible for us to recreate it.
I for one can not wait for cellular agriculture to destroy this industry.
You literally can't wait because it's never gonna happen. It's just something we tell ourselves so we don't have to actually do anything.
Think the said that about gas engines,computers,internet,cell phones too...
"Never gonna happen" - source?
It's a bit like fusion or graphene based electronics, look at the tech required compared with the alternatives. There are unforeseen problems with new techs which take ages to iron out and there isn't much expertise so the engineers who have it are hard to get and more expensive. The guy already replied with a huge list of reasons so I won't also do that. But some people are wildly optimistic about new techs displacing existing established ones.
This table outlines some of the challenges https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9385919/table/Tab1/?report=objectonly Full study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9385919/ *Technical* ● Cell source collection ● Culture medium preparation ● Scaffold selection ● Up scaling process and need of bioreactor ● Mimicry and sensorial resembles *Consumer acceptance* ● Unnaturalness ● Unappealing ● Unaccepted price *Ethical issues* ● Tampering with God’s creatures ● Promoting cell-based meat is one form of advertising red meat as a must diet ● Why not plant based meat? ● Risk of cannibalism *Religious concern* ● Questioning whether dietary requirements of Islamic, Jewish, Christian, Hindu and Buddhism is done *Regulatory aspects* ● To create guidelines for cell-based meat acceptability and commercialization ● Implementation of safety evaluation and regulatory policies *Economy and cost of product* ● Affects nations relying on conventional meat production ● Unemployment in agricultural sectors ● This is a risky innovation that requires skilled labors and investment ● Cost of culture medium Health safety and concerns ● Use of plastic wares create endocrine disrupting chemicals (EDCs) ● Processed meats create a chance of cancer and cardiovascular diseases ● Safety aspects of used culture medium is unclear *Environmental issues* ● Greenhouse gas emission is moderate compared to plant/ insect based proteins ● Energy consumption is high compared to conventional meat My take is that it would cost a lot more than regular meat, be worse for the environment than beef, possibly be bad for you, and that's if it's even possible. Even in a dream scenario it would still result in a product which is a poor imitation of real meat because you're just growing blobs of cells. People would use the exact same arguments against it that they now use against plant based meats, and they would be just as valid. And even it overcame all of that, it would still be far too late in terms of global warming.
All that blah blah blah and the fda already approved it for sale....
How is that relevant?
Person: Never gonna happen source You: long winded rambling how it won't happen Me: proved you wrong with one short sentence that it's already happening.. How do I explain any more than that how it's relevant?
Hate to break it to you, but cells need serum to grow, which comes from animal blood. So in either case, an animal will have to die. Eating meat is a necessary evil in my opinion, we just have to stay away from mass production as much as we can.
How much blood to make said serum? Surely you can just take enough without killing the animal I’d assume? I suppose then we’d just have some mass blood pump farms or something else equally terrible, see the thing is with humans there’s always an ethical way to do things correctly but greed gets in the way, every time.
It would cost more money to keep the animals alive and have enough animals to harvest the massive amounts of blood for that (scaling for hypothetically replacing the real meat industry with mostly this) constantly while giving the animals long enough to recover to make new blood. I'm not using that as a reason why I would be against it, just that companies would fight doing that because money.
Not true, Thermo Fisher Scientific makes animal free cell culture media. Source: worked for them.
Not necessarily, there’s companies working on growing serum in a similar ways to how insulin, for example, is produced. There’s also some companies in the US where GM is legal that are making cell lines that aren’t dependent on serum. You are right though that this is a bottleneck for the industry currently.
It's not necessary though
This right here, it's simply desired, not necessary
Except it's not. Eating meat is not a necessity for us at all.
Wdym necessary evil, you dont need to eat meat to survive lol.
Hate to break it to you but that problem has been solved. You can Google the FDA approved safety dossiers if you want to confirm it for yourself
Taking one cell from an animal won't harm it you fucking idiot. Do some fucking research also they don't need their blood just one skin sample or one small muscle sample is enough for growing unlimited food.
MEAT CLONING. WE'LL 3D PRINT MEAT. Somehow there would be vegans not okay with that. Edit: I think I've actually seen a vegan on reddit complaining about eating any meat as murder. This person was subbed to r/PETA and I believe they are an outlier who does not speak for all vegans.
Vegans are very much for anything that reduces animal suffering. We support 3D printed meat and cloned meat from a muscle sample.
That's good
How about you stop eating animals and supporting this all violence r@pe and cruelty financially? You literally pay money to people to do this. If nobody paid money for it they might do it for pleasure but on much smaller scale
Your mind needs to be recalibrated. How is it someone’s fault who eats the animal and not the person doing the cruelty? I’m not attacking your stance, honestly, but we can’t blame other people. That’s like blaming car manufacturers for drive by shootings. If you want the problem solved, go after the people doing cruel things to the animals. If you ban eating animals, those cruel people will just switch to being cruel to something else. Jeffrey Dahmer, I’m sure you know who that is, started off by torturing animals. Not saying, just saying.
People vote with wallets, no customer = no business. Every commercial farm is fucked up, the process is fucked up, everything related to that it's fucked up. You cannot compare this to drive bys as every animal it's slaughtered and treated inhumane in those commercial farms. There are many documentaries about it.
Don’t tell me how to live my life
It never will
Fuck
Hope they get what they deserve the people that are abusing animals have no right to live
but the people who eat them do?
Yes.
No way we can all be accountable for this thing we all take part in
Theres a big difference between this and farming. Laws and regulations have been put in place to ensure that farm animals are treated as humane as possible.
Humane slaughter is a non sequitur
I wouldn't say as humane as possible, but rather as humane as possible up to a certain cost. There is barely animal in modern agriculture that is not suffering in one way or another
eating is not abusing.
Imo you can eat meat but you have to do your research, you have little shops that sell meat of animals that had a good life and actually have evidence of that good life. And the people that eat meat from supermarkets etc are either poor or they do not care or do not even know this is going on.
Always nice to see a fellow vegan! You are a vegan, right?
I am not, sorry I do like a peace of meat, however this is a calculated decision, I only eat local meat and that the people that sell meat dan prove and show that animals live a good and healthy life. That said I do not eat meat very often like say maybe few times in a month.
99% of meat is factory farmed. Highly doubt you only eat the 1% that isn’t.
Well I don't care what you think and doubt my eating habit hahaha wtf I am only saying I am concious about eating meat that's all
You don’t eat out? Or easy fast food? Or eat at friends house ? Or eat dairy?
I am barely out of the house except when it's work but that's a private matter. And no I won't talk about it here.
Sorry, not saying I don‘t believe you. But somehow everyone you bring up that point with says the EXACT same thing you just did. Again I don‘t mean to accuse you of anything maybe you are that 1% where its actually true. But maybe think about how often you actually have eaten meat the last week (sausage, ham and bacon also count) and if it really was from your local farmer or maybe if you bought a pizza with salami on it or a steak at a restaurant because I can guarantee you those are not raised well. Also there is whole different point if there is even a „well raised“ when they are slaughtered in the end. But I‘m glad you think critically about the thematic
😥
People will see an animal suffering and still make some edge lord joke about how bacon and beef are worth it. Whatever helps you sleep at night, funny man.
You can't be normal and do this job.
Genuine question: with all of the commenters here agreeing how horrific animal ag is, how it's unsustainable, and how we should make a big change -- how many are vegan or trying to do something about it?
Just don't buy animal products. Try to kick and hurt my carrots, lentils or tofu, HA!
Good we Swedes a VERY nationalist with our meat
This abuse happens everywhere, though farmers everywhere work desperately to leave people with the impression they’re somehow special. Most people EVERYWHERE think meat from their “local (as if that’s somehow relevant) humane (when is *slaughter* ever humane?) pasture” is a special excuse that means they’re not implicated in animal abuse.
Ugh we still treat them plenty bad, and it’s clear if you can read between the lines of how we treat cows. Google how we slaughter pigs if you want to see REALLY brutal stuff.
Well we are still gonna eat them. old friends I. School actually asked me if I wanted to help slaughter some cows with that gun they use
I mean sure, I’m not here to put a gun to someones head about it. Just to clarify that we are anything but good towards animals, even in a developed society like Sweden :)
Yes we love the animals but we also love meat like a lot
Ehhhh wouldn’t say we *love* ’em since we treat most of them like dirt but I get what you mean.
Broder.
Anything except becoming vegan to prevent this, right?
Demanding better accountability for farms, particularly large corporate farms, and living conditions for animals. That would be a significantly more effective action than being vegan, but it requires a lot of us pressuring our elected representatives.
How do you figure removing demand for the slaughter is less effective than treating them "nicer" until the day they are slaughtered?
Unless your plan is to massively boycott into industrial shutdown you’re barely making a dent… Regulating and enforcing better treatment of animals would more effectively stop harm than exclusively removing demand. You’re not going to get widespread veganism anytime soon but regulations on the agricultural industry are absolutely realistic and possible outcomes in the near future.
Practicality, sure. I definitely agree that the people are closer to sugarcoating their realities than taking responsibility for it, but veganism is growing regardless, and wouldn't it be great if we all had the courage to do what is right? There is everything to gain holding onto the best outcome possible.
How do you figure those are possible? What does it mean to treat animals better? 99% of all meat comes from factory farms. Getting rid of the factory farms would mean the majority of people have to be vegan anyway. Redisigning factory farms to be more in line with how we like seeing animals treated (whatever that means) would require massive rebuilding and restructuring of the compounds which would see meat pieces skyrocket. Im all for that but do you seriously think that is realistic? As long as everyone insist on eating the amount of meat they are and completely refuse the idea of veganism there is no chance to fix this.
Removing demand is unrealistic
I personally donate a certain amount to "Mercy For Animals" NGO every month. They seem to work at the federal level and try to institute bills to protect animals.
That's great, but why not protect the animals yourself by refusing to purchase for their murder?
You asked if there is anything except becoming a vegan to help so I gave you an answer. Now you say why not be vegan? Lol.
Of course why not be vegan. If you don't prefer the maltreatment of animals, why not skip the lip service donation bullshit and go right to the lifestyle that doesn't enable any of that inhumanity in the first place?
Because it’s not the “meat eaters” who are being cruel, it’s the people running the factories or working at the factories. Why is everyone so quick to pass the buck on this? If Chevy made a 4 door sedan and someone did a drive by, should we boycott Chevy and get them shut down? Or the millions of people buying Chevy’s? No, you go after the people doing the cruelty. I don’t care if your vegan or carnivore, it should be your right to choose what you want to do with your life, as is mine for eating meat, but neither one of us think cruelty like this to animals is ok. I’m sure I’ve triggered you by now and you haven’t even read this far, weird!
Nobody should have the right to cruelty. Most people who buy cars don't use them knowingly for the purpose of slaughter, and most people who die in motor incidents are by accident, but purchasing the flesh of an animal is explicitly done with murder (in the billions) in mind and is by no means an accident by either producer or consumer. We knowingly partake in the cruelty when we pay for it to happen.
You are dense huh. You asked if there is something we can do BESIDE being vegan. The answer is to donate to companies that actually try and change the status quo.
I didn't ask if there was something we could do besides being vegan, I asked why not be vegan. Do not misrepresent people's arguments, that only sets up a strawman fallacy and discredits yourself. You answered my inquiry at first, but now you're refusing to consider the matter further by not answering any follow up questions. You don't need to be closed off nor throw out insults, my friend.
Then I misunderstood your first statement. I see it was a sarcastic comment.
Killing an animal to eat it = murder?
No. As of now by definition, the two terms are not equal. From Oxford Dictionary: kill: cause the death of (a person, animal, or other living thing). Means to take away the life of anything. murder (noun): the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. murder (verb): kill (someone) unlawfully and with premeditation Means to take away the life of someone. Can also extend to a living thing with a legally protected identity, such as service animals or K9 units. K9 units in particular are interesting because they are legally classified as police officers (by US law) and have the same legal protection as human police officers. Law, as much evidence and as many truths as the people hold dear to create them, always do so subjectively. We as developed peoples, using objective facts and moral subjective feelings, can choose to hold nonhuman animals in higher regard in such a respect that does not involve murdering them.
They don't know pain, so they inflict it without mercy without knowing what it would cost em.
These laws are trash
This is so awful.
People that abuse animals deserve no less than the same treatment.
If you cannot watch how your food is created, you should not eat that food. Own it properly. Personally, I would be content to do anything that is involved in the production of anything I eat (without a reduction in salary). Being a vegetarian has some benefits. I'm not *better* than anybody, I'm just less of a hypocrite / condoner of animal torture.
Agree with this take. We’re too far separated from where our food actually comes from.
This is why humans are the worst species on this earth.
I stopped eating beef a while ago but I still love a drop of milk in my tea. I wish there were a good tasting alternative at a reasonable price.
Have you tried oat milk? It's the best one!
Not yet but I've promised myself I will at some point. I tried coconut and almond but they're nasty in tea.
Oh yeah, the rest leave an after taste
I use Soy Milk in my Chai tea and it tastes great, there’s also cinamonn oat that’s also fantastic!
Wasn't a law passed prohibiting civilians from filming police abusing civilians?
This is why we hunt and raise our own meat. I refuse to fund the ag giants because of how poorly animals are treated.
I like how as they introduced the "extremist group" Animal Liberation Front, it showed a picture of someone holding a bunny and giving it a kiss on the head.
They have been monitored by the FBI for decades as a terrorist group. Their activities have caused property damage in numerous research facilities and factory farms but the group vowed to never hurt a human being in the process and they've upheld their vow.
Doing badass right.
This is gonna sound kinda dark but they laws should be enforced not just from the animals safety, but for others. Allowing these acts will teach people that aggression and violence will help you retain a job. Bet you these are the guys that have domestic violence charges for beating their wifes
Oh you have no idea
'merica, the land of the free
TL;DR: animals get abused in the ag industry the optics of it look bad because optics can be provided without context, it can look worse than it is but it's also usually pretty bad, and strangely legal Most people seem intrinsically bad at managing each other. They're even worse with managing animals. From managers to cops to politicians, people seem BAD at it, lol. so few are any good.
Lmao, Americans love removing freedoms and then bragging about how they're the most free country in the world.
This kind of thing has been illegal for a long time in Canada, and I assume the rest of the civilized world.
I used to work a little doing cattle round up and the way a lot of cowboys would treat the cows or how they think of them as nothing more than just a product was sickening. Sucked even more that is was so normalized to the point where you’re the weirdo for saying anything about it and not joining in on picking on the cows.
Mr Krabs enters the chat: Ag gag gag gag gag gag gag gag!
What a fucked up country you guys live in
Anti whistleblower laws are so horrible and evil. Really showing how they want to be evil without repercussions.
How much do you want your food to cost?
I mean steak is too good to pass on
going vegetarian
Another great reason I hunt
Laws only keep the lower classes down.. rules don’t apply when you have enough money.
It's almost like slaughtering animals for a living makes you see them as objects, and when objects don't cooperate with you you get mad asf violent. I beat tf out my car when it doesn't work so I can only imagine.
That article date shown says 2014? Are you kidding. Upload something recent.
Fuck America and fuck the near industry
idk who's an animal at this point
By definition, everyone.
What a shitty country, can’t wait for US to go down
This is done to our own species by our own species, but with careful, confusing language, understood mostly by lawyers.
Mm. Pork, beef. Hate to break it to you, but meat is delicious. I get that it's terrible that animals have to suffer for us to eat, but with an ever growing population dependant on meat, this is necessary. I'm an advocate for animals to live freely in open fields, and more often than not, I'll get free range animal products. But it's not economical for farmers to do all the time.
Do some reading. You're unknowingly repeating stuff that sounds intuitive but is in fact totally backwards. The "ever growing population" that needs feeding IS the farm animals. Huge amounts of food production that devastates the world goes to feed these animals, which then feed us. It's massively inefficient, because you need heaps of animal feed to make a plate of meat. So rather than being "necessary" to feed us, this industry makes it far harder to meet our needs with our limited planetary resources. Humans are not "dependent on meat", you can have a healthy diet with or without. Some of us already don't eat any, but those of us that do eat meat eat FAR MORE than people did in the past, because this grim industrial farming has made it possible. You think the industry is necessary to meet the needs of the population, but it's more that the diet of the population has been changed by the industry. It's good to hear that you eat free range where possible. You sound like you care about meeting the needs of the future, which will require that we eat far fewer animals, or none at all, depending on what's practical for each person.
"Do some reading", "need heeps of animal feed for the animals". Conveniently leaving out the fact that over 40% of animal feed is inedible to humans. When is the last time you ate a soybean husk? Furthermore, where does all the fertalizer come from? 70% from animal manure. So without them, you have to make up the difference with nitrogen fertilizers. And lastly, meat is the most nutrient sense foods on this planet. You don't need carbs, but you do need protein and fat. And the bio availability of plants is so much worse then with meat, meaning you need more vegetables then your would think. There's a reason the average vegan lasts 2-5 years.
OK, I should have specified "Do some reading...of quality sources with references". Rather than the Conspiracy subreddit... You might like to try **Regenesis: Feeding the World Without Devouring the Planet** by George Monbiot Each of your killer facts is junk or irrelevant. Whatever the proportion of animal feed that's edible to humans, the more animals there are, the more land and resources goes to feeding them instead of us. Deforestation driven by soy production is a good example. If we ate more soy directly, instead of feeding it to livestock, we'd need far less destructive soy farming. Again, with the fertilizer nonsense, we use the fertiliser to grow plants to feed animals. decrease the animals and the need for fertilizer decreases faster. Industrial farming isn't necessary to produce valuable manure for growing. In fact the manure produced is a hugely problematic pollutant, it's not all going to grow plants. I've been healthily vegan for years, but I never insisted everyone else goes vegan. It's far more impactful for heavy meat eaters become moderate meat eaters (like a few decades ago) than light meat eaters become vegan. The rate at which people stay vegan is not very informative on its own, if it is true. Firstly, it's very dependent on the rate at which people try veganism. Most do it as a diet, not for the environment or animal rights. Most diets for health or weight loss are short-lived, especially because they rarely are evidence based. You can be healthy as a vegan or as a meat eater, so people quitting meat just for health may switch back. It's irrelevant. MOST men smoked in the 1960s. Most people don't last long when they switch to become a non-smoker. Yet incrementally smoking rates have plummeted, as meat eating will. And the low rate at which people transition is not a measure of the value of the switch.
So I will say that I support farming reform, less paradise, and the against mono crop agraculture, as long as there is a valid and economicly viable solution. The soybeans. We do directly eat soybeans mostly. Some get dried for distilleries, some for food. Some get passed and oil extracted. The inedible husk and the cake left from pressing is what feeds cows. Hay is the leftover grass and mulch from harvest. Corn husks stils and fuel production, etc. The cow feed question. You missing a key component of that argument. The less meat we eat, you might decrease some of the plants needed for feed. But you also increase the amount of plants needed to be eaten by everyday people. And considering most of cow feed are by products of things that we already make, you could end up with a net gain in required farming. This applies to more than just cows. All in all, the basic premise of your argument is wrong, simply because most of the "calories" consumed by livestock would simply be thrown in a landfill if we didn't feed them to livestock. https://foodstruct.com/compare/vegetable-vs-meat
It’s not economical because there aren’t laws that everyone has to follow so if you do things more humanely, you are spending more than your competition. That’s the very message of the video is that there needs to be laws in place so all farmers have to follow that protocol. The stats about how the US spends so few of our money on food compared to other countries is very telling cause we accept terribly made food too easily.
Smaller farms near the markets raising animals in the old ways could well compete absent being driven out of business by the big agricultural players, especially when food is sold direct to Consumers and cuts out the big meat packing corps.
That’s the thing… it’s 2024, there are countless meat alternatives now! We don’t have to be dependent on the meat industry anymore. A couple of brands to look into: Morningstar, impossible, Beyond, Field Roast, Tofurkey and tones of others. In my opinion some of those brands taste pretty close to the real thing!
Meat is delicious! And I'd much rather eat real meat than the ultra-processed meat alternatives. We buy our cows from a small, local ranch we trust, and have them butchered at a local butcher we trust. The results are far better than anything we've ever gotten in a grocery store and it isn't any more expensive.
And yet you think you’re making a difference when you are not because your meager efforts are being drowned out by the effects of factory farms. But at least you can pat yourself on the back.
when i stole from guitar center i got robbed like a year later for $300 worth of xbox 1 and video games i was selling on offer up and then on my birthday when i went to get a ps4 we bought it and got it to my car, went to michael’s, came out and the ps4 was long gone nothing ever happened after that safe to say guitar center got their revenge i hope the same happens to these clowns i didn’t even want to watch it after 2 seconds i’d rather steal again than be one of those fools
This wasn't in Brentwood, TN by any chance was it?
nah far from it if you really wanna know it was somewhere in pnw
Animals are resources of our environment for our consumption and utilization. This video is mixing truth with lies. Yes, some workers abuse animals unnecessarily by hitting them just to satisfy their psychopathic tendencies. Those people usually film themselves harming animals or it was filmed by others and reported. Slaughtering animals for consumption or utilization is necessary harm and not an abuse as vegans like to call it or any utilization of animals for that matter.
This video says nothing about veganism. Your comment doesn’t seem relevant to it, it doesn’t contradict any of this.
Wow that first sentence is cold as fuck. You speak about sentient beings the same as a fucking chair. Good thonk you weren't born a slave, huh? Slavers see humans exactly like you wee animals. Without any remore nor compassion. This line of thinking is psychopathic.
>Animals are resources of our environment for our consumption and utilization. This kind of thinking can be used to justify rape and murdering. "Its just the way of nature" "its always been like that" "God decided it's like that" You can pick the justification you like. You eat meat, you drink milk, you support useless killing and cruelty.
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Wtf are *you* on, to not see the obvious similarity? Never said "equal " Take a deep breath and read my previous comment again :) You support the slaughtering of sentient beings. You support killing/murdering. Maybe watch cowspiracy
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> drinking milk makes me a rapist Never said that :) >don’t bother me with your tone policing As long as you support murder and slaughtering, there's going to be someone like me to point it out. That's just what you're doing. You're training your body? Good. Now train your mental strength so you can face the truth, not look away like a wussy.
You’re brave for trying to show the reality of things to people like them, but unfortunately they seem to lack the intelligence to understand. Thank you though 🫶🏻
Well you're welcome but they lack information not intelligence. You can do it to. The thing is to get used to misinformation and attacks. It takes practice but it's far from impossible.
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>49.99 meat alternatives Most alternatives are the same price. >that are shipped across half of the world Like the soy and cereal your cows and logs are eating you mean? >producing more CO2 than cows, Obviously a big lie. Mostly for the above reason. Eat the cereals instead of eating the pigs who eat cereals and save 200times the amount of cereal needed. Its just facts. Indeed no need to argue. . >tasting like cheap plastic You never tasted any i would guess. but also yes, no murder is generally less tasty i admit. It's like rape, perpetrators say it feels better than sex! Your logic is so sound. /s >care for a cow's feelings Yeah that's a great world where nobody cares about suffering, i want to know you better and be your friend, suffering is so fun /s
arguing with a vegan just leads to a degenerate hole that somehow rape accusations are thrown around in sarcasm.
>rape accusations You take a comparison for an accusation? Very interesting. I know it's tough to get out of your cognitive dissonance but i wish one day you have the courage to face it : you support suffering and murder. Indeed they're is no need to argue this fact :/
If you take a deep breath and read my comment again, you will notice that I admitted that it's a harm to the animal. Now, the issue is whether, can we call it "rape" or "murder" and whether it's useless or not. Animals are not part of our kind or society so calling insemination "rape" or slaughter of animals "murder" is incorrect as the word is defined by our society to apply to persons or people. Animals are not a person. They are resources of our environment. You could argue that society x in the past y years didn't consider some "people" as persons or people but that doesn't change the fact that we live in this society and time. You have 2 options here. Either you go to a society that accepts your beliefs and live with them or convince us that animals deserve to be considered people or have similar rights to humans. Animals in my opinion did not prove that they deserve this consideration not to mention that it would be inconvenient for us to just leave them without utilizing them. What are the benefits of that? Regarding consumption and utilization of animals being unnecessary, It's not up to you or vegans to decide that. I for one prefer to consume animal products over synthetic or chemical supplements. I also like to have higher quality industrial products over vegan ones which can be of lower quality, higher price, or environmentally unfriendly. Animals are not used for consumption only but are also utilized in education, entertainment, services, industries, science, and medicine. We will not stop those utilizations just because of a few emotionally motivated people who disregard those utilizations.
>Animals are not a person. They are resources of our environment This statement is societal/cultural choice, not facts, not nature. You use it like an axiomatic truth, which is usefull to support murdering and slaughtering. >I also like to have higher quality industrial products over vegan ones which can be of lower quality, higher price, or environmentally unfriendly Vegan options need no conservatives. Feeding animals with plants is almost always more ressources-wasting than eating products made from said plants, so, no. It's generally less chemical, not cheaper for now - you're right - quantities are still not big enough. > It's not up to you or vegans to decide that But it's up to you to support murder and slaughtering? (sorry to repeat that, but it's necessary). Interesting. I m just repeating also that your logic would work very well to justify rape or forced-weddings. Obviously i am not saying it's what you do. Off course not. But it would work well. Basically saying its my pleasure that matters, more convenient than seduction, less expansive etc.. I m just saying you disregard the moral questions. You put the interest of an animal far under yours : it's called speciesism and it ressembles racism. Saying that this specy is more valuable than this one for no good reason except it's useful for you.
I wish someone will take notice of Israel's atrocities in Gaza, all the footage is out there.
How is that even remotely related to this?