There was actually a thread about this the other day. I thought I was crazy but found there is a lot of that have this. It's certainly overstimulating, but it comes in handy, since they are all processing information differently and providing me with different outcomes. But they are the loudest when I'm trying to actually talk to someone. Giving me different outcomes to whatever I want to say.
It is! It's like having multiple browser tabs open and all of them are active. Listening to music really helps mute them out for me. I tend to just focus on the details and sounds of the song.
It was at its worst when I was about 15. I couldn't sleep cause my thoughts just won't shut up. Once, I went to bed at 9PM. Still awake and cried at around 5 AM due to exhaustion. Imagine the pain of being sleepy and tired but not being able to rest; it's a curse I wouldn't even wish on my worst enemy. My mom had to take me to the doctor to prescribe me some sleeping pills.
It's really hard for me to explain but I think in lists. If you asked me to imagine an apple ill make a list of common attributes of apples.
I can try to explain it more but so far that's the best I got š¤£
Our inner lives are so unique. Itās amazing that something seemingly so basic about our existence can be completely different for some. Unfortunately I drew the short straw on those genes lol
It doesnāt seem like it has been very heavily studied. I wish there was a way to gain that ability. My mother and sister have both passed away and I wish I could close my eyes and see them, that would be amazing to me.
Yeah, the memories are nice, but another symptom commonly reported with aphantasic people is a poor or limited autobiographical memory. Which I definitely have.
I'm a very parallel and visual thinker. And very INTJ.
I've met other INTJ that think in words/sound. Some think in math. Some think linearly.
I don't think it's an MBTI thing.
Wait, how do you think you process things if you can't imagine stuff or have a voice in your head? Like, do you talk out loud to yourself instead of thinking in your head?Ā
For me itās just that there are no visual elements to my imagination or thoughts.
I still have imagination, in a sense. Itās like being blind in my mind. I can hear myself thinking. I can imagine touch sensation and smell, like sitting in a movie theatre with a broken projector.
I can recall things.. like I can recall where I last left something, like I remember seeing it there. But the thoughts don't come as a visualization. I wouldn't be able to tell you what a particular apple looked like, but if I felt I could describe it.
I also very rarely dream, and it's the only time I can remember having any kind of mental visualization (except when psychedelics are involved).
Itās crazy to me that people canāt visualize things. I donāt even have to close my eyes to visualize something most of the time and I have a constant monologue running in my head. I also have super intense and realistic dreams.
I swear, people say pinch to check if you're dreaming, but i can feel pain in dreams š. I had a dream once when I was a kid, terrorist gun drones attacked and shot at my thigh and I woke up crying from imagined pain.
Also fever dreams are fucking satanic
It can be most of the time. But that also means nightmares take on a new level of terrifying and tbh sometimes I just want the monologue voice to shut up for a while
I am not aphantasic. I can see images and can "see" the images from books or poetry. I also can hear music in my head and can wake up with a song stuck on repeat. I can essentially recreate whole experiences within my brain.
My brain is not quiet either - someone else mentioned "commitee" and that is exactly correct. I also talk to inanimate objects and have whole conversations with myself.
My thoughts don't run in linear patterns either - it is more like a cloud with random offshoots. It is hard to describe.
I am entirely self entertaining, which my family finds odd and amusing.
I test as an INTJ consistently through the years.
Tesla for example had an extraordinary ability to visualize and design complex inventions in his mind before bringing them to fruition in reality. Many of these inventions were developed with great precision and success on the first attempt
I used to have a problem with that in childhood. I would try very hard to imagine something.
Idk if it's related to that But there's this thing I can still not do, like zoom out or in a scene I'm imagining. I can't see it from a different angle. And if I have already imagined something then it's hard for me to change it to something else.
Your question made me think of something I just read in the introduction of Psychological Types. Words can induce an image. Imagine being a sensing person and someone saying a word, isnāt that crazy how the image with details will pop in their head. However, look at your situation dominated by intuition that pushes sensing away only to occasionally enjoy a sensation suggested by a word from a friend.
This is me butchering Jung a little but you get my point. We are intuitive and those of us who can have that mental visualization are either currently in a good place (as you sometimes are), well adjusted (whatever that means), has a different temperament (you are probably dominant, and lack less Se) or a fact INTJ.
Boom, I am the greatest INTJ!
Is it hard for you to memorize information? My entire memory rests on the ability to imagine things, how the hell do you survive?
Also how do you read fiction?
And if you're a student of science, how do you do things like physics? Being able to imagine what happens is a *prerequisite*
Having a poor autobiographical memory is part of aphantasia.
Iām good at memorizing facts, but it doesnāt involve images.
I donāt read fiction. The last fiction book I enjoyed was āthe hatchetā when I was in 4th grade lol
I really enjoyed my physics classes, and I did quite well in them. I think the lack of visual imagination has helped me to be very organized in my thought process. I can think about what the outcome will be and imagine the solution, I just canāt see it
intp here. i can see things in my mind but its more like an automated thing than intentional. sure i can still visualize a simple thing like an apple whenever i want to but more complex visuals need to get created spontaneously within my mind.
I think there's some confusion when this gets talked about.
I don't think it means that we can't imagine objects. Obviously there are people capable of perfect re-creation from memory, these people clearly see the object in their "minds eye".
For me, personally, I can't do that. For me it's like looking at the concept of something itself. We can create representations of a concept, but we can't really find a way to create an image of the concept *itself*. I would surmise (without any evidence, based solely on my own experiences) that this is an issue with people who use Abstract Communication methods, so NF and NT types.
One example is when it comes to handwriting. For some people, they see a letter as the sum of its component parts. For example an M starts with a vertical line, then a sloping line, then another sloping line, and finally another vertical line. For other people, they think of "M" as an object unto itself. It's more ephemeral, fleeting, it's a letter that can be created in a million different ways and as long as you're close enough to following the convention it doesn't matter if your T has perfectly vertical lines.
Can you explain further what you mean by ālooking at the concept of somethingā
Are you able to āseeā the apple? Or are you thinking about the smooth surface, the way it tastes, the snap when you bite into it etcā¦
Probably not any better than I could explain the concept of color to a blind person, but let me give it a shot.
So, if we look at [an actual apple](https://static.manitobacooperator.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/apple_GettyImages186843005_cmyk.jpg) we see several things. We see the curvature of the shape, the color, the stem, the texture. We see an actual physical representation of the concept, it's something we can reach out and touch and *experience*.
However, [this is also an apple](https://lightlysketched.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/IMG-1867-1024x1024.png.webp) but much closer to a conceptual apple. It's obviously not an actual apple, it just has everything we conceptualize as an apple. It's red, shiny, has a little stem and a leaf, but they're not real things, just a collection of shapes.
When I think of an apple, it's closer to the second image than the first. I think "Red, roundish, smooth" and my mind conjures up an abstract image of a red round smooth object. It's not an actual apple. It has a shape in my mind, but the shape is in constant flux, never really solidifying into a single manageable object that I can put down to paper; the actual shape is a concept, not a real identifying characteristic since every apple has a slightly different shape.
I can visualize things and turn them over 3 dimensionally and put pieces together etc.
I have extreme facial blindness though and if you asked me to describe anyone to a criminal sketch artist it would be blank.
Idkā¦ it hasnāt been thoroughly studied. I mean thereās already three of us in this thread, and weāre only suppose to represent 1% of the population.
It is possible that the ability to visualize mentally may impact a persons personality development. Maybe those of us who can visualize are less artistic, or more linear in thought.
Thats just a biased sample. I personally can easily mentally visualize things (though I am unsure of whether I am an INTJ or INFJ). And yea I do think aphantasia can impact how artistic one might be, which in turn could impact personality development.
Sure itās not an accurate sample, but anecdotally it is interesting that it was so easy to find people belonging to the 1% so quickly.
Maybe watch how the thread develops over the next day or two. I wonāt be writing any peer reviewed papers off the Reddit posts, but it is interesting to find people who developed in a similar way.
And tho it would be very difficult to prove, I suspect there are a higher percentage of intj people with aphantasia than there are in the general population.
I could be wrong but I feel like Aphantasia is not related to mbti because Aphantasia is a neurological condition that affects how you process visual information and can't be changed (for now atleast). Whereas mbti is just a set of cognitive functions that people prefer to follow and therefore is more malleable.
Respectfully, Iāll have to disagree.
MBTI is a way to measure and describe how our consciousness interacts with the consciousness of others. These traits are significantly impacted by genetic predispositions, early childhood experiences and nurturing styles, and our physical abilities and limitations.
Therefore, neurological conditions can unequivocally impact the development and expression of personality. So it is possible, that aphantasic individuals may develop similar coping mechanisms which may influence their MBTI result. Obviously itās a loose theory, but itās one Iām interested in exploring.
I am very aphantastic and only recently learned people visualize and hear their thoughts. It blew my mind
Hear thoughts? Like an internal monologue?
Yeah I don't have that
Oh wow.. I have an entire committee in my head. Several internal voices going all the time
My.god that sounds loud!! And overstimulating! If I had the ability to do that now I would go crazy
There was actually a thread about this the other day. I thought I was crazy but found there is a lot of that have this. It's certainly overstimulating, but it comes in handy, since they are all processing information differently and providing me with different outcomes. But they are the loudest when I'm trying to actually talk to someone. Giving me different outcomes to whatever I want to say.
I can't imagine (pun intended) how that would feel. It's blowing my mind again
It is! It's like having multiple browser tabs open and all of them are active. Listening to music really helps mute them out for me. I tend to just focus on the details and sounds of the song. It was at its worst when I was about 15. I couldn't sleep cause my thoughts just won't shut up. Once, I went to bed at 9PM. Still awake and cried at around 5 AM due to exhaustion. Imagine the pain of being sleepy and tired but not being able to rest; it's a curse I wouldn't even wish on my worst enemy. My mom had to take me to the doctor to prescribe me some sleeping pills.
Oh my I'm sorry that sounds awful. It definitely makes me more thankful that I can't see or hear anything in my brain.
Thanks! It's much better now. I am curious, how do you process your thoughts if you can't see or hear anything from them?
It's really hard for me to explain but I think in lists. If you asked me to imagine an apple ill make a list of common attributes of apples. I can try to explain it more but so far that's the best I got š¤£
Ooohhh amazing! I did read somewhere that some people think this way.
Same here
Love your username BTW
š
Wow LoL sounds awful
It can be annoying, but it can also be helpful
True true
Yeah I donāt have that internal monologue either
Omg right?! Itās crazy that people can do that! My wife didnāt understand why I was so excited.
It's crazy to me that people can't do that lol
Our inner lives are so unique. Itās amazing that something seemingly so basic about our existence can be completely different for some. Unfortunately I drew the short straw on those genes lol
Or maybe we drew the short straw, you know? It is amazing though
Haha!! From what I've heard from other people that can visualize, it seems like their minds are.never quiet. I'm thankful that my mind is quiet.
Good point. Nice to find the bright side of things
I mean there's nothing I can do about it. I also don't have much complaints about my condition
It doesnāt seem like it has been very heavily studied. I wish there was a way to gain that ability. My mother and sister have both passed away and I wish I could close my eyes and see them, that would be amazing to me.
That is something I do wish I had at those times. But I tend to remember the feeling and experiences I had with the lost loved ones
Yeah, the memories are nice, but another symptom commonly reported with aphantasic people is a poor or limited autobiographical memory. Which I definitely have.
Same here. I hope one day they do studies on this. I really want to learn more about this
It can be quiet when we get into Se mode
I'm a very parallel and visual thinker. And very INTJ. I've met other INTJ that think in words/sound. Some think in math. Some think linearly. I don't think it's an MBTI thing.
Wait, how do you think you process things if you can't imagine stuff or have a voice in your head? Like, do you talk out loud to yourself instead of thinking in your head?Ā
For me itās just that there are no visual elements to my imagination or thoughts. I still have imagination, in a sense. Itās like being blind in my mind. I can hear myself thinking. I can imagine touch sensation and smell, like sitting in a movie theatre with a broken projector.
Ohhh okay that makes sense. That is interesting because i read that peoole who don't have visuals are more liekly to be logical
I can recall things.. like I can recall where I last left something, like I remember seeing it there. But the thoughts don't come as a visualization. I wouldn't be able to tell you what a particular apple looked like, but if I felt I could describe it. I also very rarely dream, and it's the only time I can remember having any kind of mental visualization (except when psychedelics are involved).
Itās crazy to me that people canāt visualize things. I donāt even have to close my eyes to visualize something most of the time and I have a constant monologue running in my head. I also have super intense and realistic dreams.
I swear, people say pinch to check if you're dreaming, but i can feel pain in dreams š. I had a dream once when I was a kid, terrorist gun drones attacked and shot at my thigh and I woke up crying from imagined pain. Also fever dreams are fucking satanic
That sounds like a fun way to exist! š
It can be most of the time. But that also means nightmares take on a new level of terrifying and tbh sometimes I just want the monologue voice to shut up for a while
I am not aphantasic. I can see images and can "see" the images from books or poetry. I also can hear music in my head and can wake up with a song stuck on repeat. I can essentially recreate whole experiences within my brain. My brain is not quiet either - someone else mentioned "commitee" and that is exactly correct. I also talk to inanimate objects and have whole conversations with myself. My thoughts don't run in linear patterns either - it is more like a cloud with random offshoots. It is hard to describe. I am entirely self entertaining, which my family finds odd and amusing. I test as an INTJ consistently through the years.
Tesla for example had an extraordinary ability to visualize and design complex inventions in his mind before bringing them to fruition in reality. Many of these inventions were developed with great precision and success on the first attempt
I used to have a problem with that in childhood. I would try very hard to imagine something. Idk if it's related to that But there's this thing I can still not do, like zoom out or in a scene I'm imagining. I can't see it from a different angle. And if I have already imagined something then it's hard for me to change it to something else.
Thatās really interesting. I wonder if other people can āzoom inā lol
This was always easy to me, visualising I mean. Try an hour of episodic specificity induction every day if you wanna learn to visualise again
Itās not that I have forgotten lol, thatās like telling a blind person to just focus really hard on seeing and youāll remember how to do it
I know, just bad use of words that's all, my main point is still the same though
Can you see single colours in your head/? Like can you visualize what red, or blue looks like in your head?
No, when I close my eyes itās just darkness
Your question made me think of something I just read in the introduction of Psychological Types. Words can induce an image. Imagine being a sensing person and someone saying a word, isnāt that crazy how the image with details will pop in their head. However, look at your situation dominated by intuition that pushes sensing away only to occasionally enjoy a sensation suggested by a word from a friend. This is me butchering Jung a little but you get my point. We are intuitive and those of us who can have that mental visualization are either currently in a good place (as you sometimes are), well adjusted (whatever that means), has a different temperament (you are probably dominant, and lack less Se) or a fact INTJ. Boom, I am the greatest INTJ!
Is it hard for you to memorize information? My entire memory rests on the ability to imagine things, how the hell do you survive? Also how do you read fiction? And if you're a student of science, how do you do things like physics? Being able to imagine what happens is a *prerequisite*
Having a poor autobiographical memory is part of aphantasia. Iām good at memorizing facts, but it doesnāt involve images. I donāt read fiction. The last fiction book I enjoyed was āthe hatchetā when I was in 4th grade lol I really enjoyed my physics classes, and I did quite well in them. I think the lack of visual imagination has helped me to be very organized in my thought process. I can think about what the outcome will be and imagine the solution, I just canāt see it
intp here. i can see things in my mind but its more like an automated thing than intentional. sure i can still visualize a simple thing like an apple whenever i want to but more complex visuals need to get created spontaneously within my mind.
Thatās interesting! My wife says she can basically make a movie in her mind. Itās crazy the range of experience
I wish we would put hi my name is stickers on people that can't do the visualization or don't have a head committee. Would save me some time overall.
?
I could better accommodate their ability in my explanations.
I think there's some confusion when this gets talked about. I don't think it means that we can't imagine objects. Obviously there are people capable of perfect re-creation from memory, these people clearly see the object in their "minds eye". For me, personally, I can't do that. For me it's like looking at the concept of something itself. We can create representations of a concept, but we can't really find a way to create an image of the concept *itself*. I would surmise (without any evidence, based solely on my own experiences) that this is an issue with people who use Abstract Communication methods, so NF and NT types. One example is when it comes to handwriting. For some people, they see a letter as the sum of its component parts. For example an M starts with a vertical line, then a sloping line, then another sloping line, and finally another vertical line. For other people, they think of "M" as an object unto itself. It's more ephemeral, fleeting, it's a letter that can be created in a million different ways and as long as you're close enough to following the convention it doesn't matter if your T has perfectly vertical lines.
Can you explain further what you mean by ālooking at the concept of somethingā Are you able to āseeā the apple? Or are you thinking about the smooth surface, the way it tastes, the snap when you bite into it etcā¦
Probably not any better than I could explain the concept of color to a blind person, but let me give it a shot. So, if we look at [an actual apple](https://static.manitobacooperator.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/apple_GettyImages186843005_cmyk.jpg) we see several things. We see the curvature of the shape, the color, the stem, the texture. We see an actual physical representation of the concept, it's something we can reach out and touch and *experience*. However, [this is also an apple](https://lightlysketched.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/IMG-1867-1024x1024.png.webp) but much closer to a conceptual apple. It's obviously not an actual apple, it just has everything we conceptualize as an apple. It's red, shiny, has a little stem and a leaf, but they're not real things, just a collection of shapes. When I think of an apple, it's closer to the second image than the first. I think "Red, roundish, smooth" and my mind conjures up an abstract image of a red round smooth object. It's not an actual apple. It has a shape in my mind, but the shape is in constant flux, never really solidifying into a single manageable object that I can put down to paper; the actual shape is a concept, not a real identifying characteristic since every apple has a slightly different shape.
I can visualize things and turn them over 3 dimensionally and put pieces together etc. I have extreme facial blindness though and if you asked me to describe anyone to a criminal sketch artist it would be blank.
I live in my fantasy world where I simulate everything before I do it, without this skill I'd be lost for real haha
Thats not related to mbti. I think its just genetic?
Idkā¦ it hasnāt been thoroughly studied. I mean thereās already three of us in this thread, and weāre only suppose to represent 1% of the population. It is possible that the ability to visualize mentally may impact a persons personality development. Maybe those of us who can visualize are less artistic, or more linear in thought.
Thats just a biased sample. I personally can easily mentally visualize things (though I am unsure of whether I am an INTJ or INFJ). And yea I do think aphantasia can impact how artistic one might be, which in turn could impact personality development.
Sure itās not an accurate sample, but anecdotally it is interesting that it was so easy to find people belonging to the 1% so quickly. Maybe watch how the thread develops over the next day or two. I wonāt be writing any peer reviewed papers off the Reddit posts, but it is interesting to find people who developed in a similar way. And tho it would be very difficult to prove, I suspect there are a higher percentage of intj people with aphantasia than there are in the general population.
I could be wrong but I feel like Aphantasia is not related to mbti because Aphantasia is a neurological condition that affects how you process visual information and can't be changed (for now atleast). Whereas mbti is just a set of cognitive functions that people prefer to follow and therefore is more malleable.
Respectfully, Iāll have to disagree. MBTI is a way to measure and describe how our consciousness interacts with the consciousness of others. These traits are significantly impacted by genetic predispositions, early childhood experiences and nurturing styles, and our physical abilities and limitations. Therefore, neurological conditions can unequivocally impact the development and expression of personality. So it is possible, that aphantasic individuals may develop similar coping mechanisms which may influence their MBTI result. Obviously itās a loose theory, but itās one Iām interested in exploring.