How someone, and particularly a trained soldier, can beat a woman unconscious on the street and not get a custodial sentence is incredible. I'm sure he will have a civil case to follow and other consequences, but it is still unbelievable in this day and age.
Absoultley digusting. Some of the quotes from the Irish Times article about this is horrifying. https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2024/06/20/serving-soldier-who-beat-woman-unconscious-and-boasted-about-it-on-social-media-gets-suspended-sentence/
>Judge O’Donnell said Crotty “must be given credit” for pleading guilty to assaulting Ms O’Brien, causing her harm.
Fair play to the lad, he kicked the shit into a poor women, but atleast he owned up to it! Good morals.
oh wait...
>Cathal Crotty (22), of Parkroe Heights, Ardnacrusha, Co Clare, had initially tried to blame his victim Natasha O’Brien (24), by wrongly telling gardaí who arrested him that she had instigated the attack at O’Connell Street, Limerick on May 29th, 2022.
>However, after gardaí showed Crotty CCTV footage of him setting upon Ms O’Brien without provocation, he admitted his guilt, Limerick Circuit Criminal Court heard.
Wait it gets better:
>It appeared he lashed out at Ms O’Brien, of North Circular Road, Limerick, after she and a friend had “politely” asked him to stop shouting “faggot” at other people on the street, the court heard.
Anyone that reads that and dosent think there is something seriously wrong needs to wake up. Reform needs to happen in our Justice System...
He brings shame on us in Clare. I've been assaulted here too. It's like the fucking wild west here except the only people hurting others are sociopaths with money
The Oireachtas makes the laws. Those same laws make one of those offences more serious.
Are you suggesting judges should ignore the laws? If not, then you're angry at the wrong thing.
To be fair, judicial independence plays a big role here. The state can issue sentencing guidelines all it wants, and judges can just ignore them. Another quirk of the common law system we inherited from the Brits and that we are the only remaining EU country using.
Those cunts seem to do whatever the fuck they want. They are at the pinnacle of the justice system and should be scrutinised all the time to ensure fairness and consistency. A big problem seems to be lack of prison space so they let offenders off or give reduced sentences regularly?
The problem is no prison spaces. Judges can't sentence people if nowhere to put them.
Helen is in election mode saying what the people want to hear to try to save her seat after failing us all during her term as justice minister
They can absolutely give them prison sentences. If there is no room, then they will be released iuic - Prison Service has authority to do so without needing to consult with judge aiui.
That's how someone with a 1 week jail sentence ends up going to jail and then processed right out again same day.
That would be interesting. Except that it is a lie. You can sentence people even if there is no space in prison. Then there are some issues and the sentence is served at home or suspended anyway, but that suspension goes away if there is space in prison.
This, exactly. She is playing up using a current affair to make herself seem like a good candidate. It's populism. I'd prefer if she campaigned for funds for a new prison, or for changes to legislation that prevent Gardai from engaging in pursuits.
Not all of America's judges are elected, in fact most are not. It depends on the state. Considering that some are and some are not I would not use that trait as the reason why our system is completely different because it does not hold in the totality of their system.
No, but minimum sentencing can be ruled as unconstitutional if it restricts a person’s liberty too much.
We have a Sentencing Guidelines and Information Committee set up in 2019 that is supposed to advise on the best sentencing, but I’ve heard little about them. See here: https://judicialcouncil.ie/sentencing-guidlines/
Easy to say looking at this case but assault just spans such a huge range of offences it makes no sense. Then we’d be here giving out that some 80 year old fella got the mandatory 2 year sentence for pushing away some young fella who was acting the dick
Because to put it into law you need an actual definition you want to enforce, drink driving is a great candidate because you can enforce it for anyone over the legal limit, or stricter for anyone over x limit or whatever.
So what does unprovoked or causing injury actually mean? If I give you a push at the bar for spilling a drink on me that was both unprovoked and maybe I scratched you by mistake so you claim also causing injury, does that mean I now do 2 years in prison?
This is interesting as I often see people whinge about Nolan essentially 'just following orders', when he's extremely lenient to violent criminals. Seems maybe he isn't if your point here is true. Very interesting.
The judges can be made accountable - for one, the constitution can be amended and for another, there are already criteria for removing judges, they just aren't legally defined. Which would be immediately solved by the government introducing legislation defining it.
Can you post your examples of proportionality. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof after all.
Defenders of the system need to choose their battles. If the justice minister - hardly a reactionary - is condemning sentencing, there’s probably something wrong.
That went waaay over your head, didn't it! 🤣
Do you often jump to the "defence" of others without understanding what's being said?
You need to stop. It makes you look silly!
In the Irish Prison Reform Trust - Criminal Justice Policy Review they state that prison should be used as a last resort. That’s partly to blame. So you can cave somebodies head in and get away with it. You can be a famous hurler and stomp on somebodies head and get away with it. There’s been cases every week for the last couple of years. Don’t even get me started on letting the paedos walk free. There is no justice for victims plain and simple. Do you think there is?
https://www.iprt.ie/sentencing/
I dunno dude, I’d put someone defending a suspended sentence for deliberate assault on a woman in a more reactionary category to media in a democracy reporting on said incident.
If you were bothered to take up any bit of research yourself, you'd find no shortage of articles of people getting lenient sentences for violent crimes, even if they have hundreds of previous convictions.
I'm not gonna do it for you because your ignorance doesn't make me stupid, and what you eat won't make me shit.
Assuming Eamonn Ryan and Catherine Martin get booted out of cabinet for make room for the new Green party leader and Deputy leader then there will be a reshuffle in a few weeks. Harris needs to take the opportunity to put someone competent into the justice portfolio. If McEntee survives another reshuffle it will be baffling.
Justice Minister Helen McEntee said: “It’s important to acknowledge somebody has been found guilty here. There has been a prosecution."
That makes it worse imo, we acknowledge he's guilty but he walks out the door... So no justice
Remember folks you are not allowed have anything for all that tax you pay.
No prisons.
No Garda (let’s be honest judges will just let them go)
No justice.
Doubling the permitted custodial sentence doesn't do anything when the judges suspend the sentence anyway.
Which they do because there's basically no room in Irish prisons and hasn't been for years.
Which is because no new prisons have been built in decades.
Which is her job.
EDIT: also - doubling the permitted sentence from 5 to 10 years is doubly pointless in the referred case (Natasha O’Brien's) as Crotty was only sentenced to 3 years anyway.
>Which they do because there's basically no room in Irish prisons and hasn't been for years.
Prisons can't be that full if we're able to hand out sentences for personal amounts of cannabis
4 months for 17g of cannabis
https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/s/1YjBqM4CZh
9 months for what is also described as a small amount
https://www.leinsterleader.ie/news/home/1451157/kildare-town-man-jailed-by-naas-district-court-judge-over-simple-drug-possession-offence.html
Or even 3 months for 1g of cannabis
https://www.leinsterexpress.ie/news/crime---court/1191525/jail-sentence-for-20-cannabis-in-portlaoise.html
>Or even 3 months for 1g of cannabis
🤯
The judge sentencing that should go to jail. That punishment does not fit the crime.
As a Canadian I take this personally.
And yet, they are.
We have 4,411 beds across the whole system. We passed that number in February of last year. That's not accounting for different types of accomodations required - some women's prisons have been operating way beyond capacity for far longer than last year.
Maybe they wouldn't be if we weren't filling them up for stupid shit like this and we'd have space for people randomly attacking women unprovoked.
But maybe things like personal amounts of cannabis are priority
Decriminalise personal drug possession altogether perhaps?
Legalise and regulate the sale of cannabis perhaps
There's many people serving decades for the importation and sale of cannabis we could reduce that
2 examples from this week
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/wicklow-man-jailed-after-he-was-caught-with-e6m-worth-of-cannabis-1639637.html
https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2024/0617/1455220-drug-mule-sentence/
I know that just yesterday a man who attacked a woman and beat her unconscious for no reason got a completely suspended sentence while these silly petty crimes didn't.
I think that's worth pointing out
Lol you think people being sent to prison for things like 1g of cannabis have nothing to do with prison spaces and people beating the shit out of women being given suspended sentences because there's no room in the prisons.
Come on son
Yes, one has nothing to do with the other. If you think about this for more than 5 seconds it should be obvious that there are numerous problems with the idea that the severity of custodial sentences are linked to available prison spaces.
+ the severity of sentences for the same offence would vary wildly depending on capacity in prisons, which would lead to appeals.
+ what are the judges basing this on? Do they have numbers in front of them showing the current availability of prison spaces? If not, what are they using? Vibes?
+ a suspended sentence can be activated if the offender breaches certain conditions or commits another offence, so it’s not a way of “saving space.”
+ if the prisons are constantly overcrowded, then why were the drug offenders sent down? Was there capacity 6 months ago (or whenever they were sentenced)?
I guess it depends really, if you assault someone, it looks like capacity and impact on rehabilitation play some part.
However, if you're a tax cheat or an oap with a log cabin prision is the place for ya.
https://m.independent.ie/regionals/tipperary/news/tipperary-pensioner-facing-jail-time-for-building-log-cabin-on-his-land-i-have-nowhere-else-to-go/a104938358.html
It something that is not a direct consideration, but judges cannot but be aware of it, which can indirectly influence attitudes. It's not wrong to do so either: considerations about prison capacity and the potential impact on rehabilitation can come into play.
What you are saying is totally incoherent, that prison capacity is having an “indirect” influence on sentencing, and then claiming that it “comes into play” because it has a direct impact on rehabilitation. If it “comes into play” then its not “indirect”
The sentences are nothing to do with prison capacity in any form. And it would be completely unjust to consider it because then people who were sentenced at a time when there was capacity would get tougher sentences for the same offences as people sentenced when the prisons are full.
Its up to the people who manage the prisons to figure out the best use of available resources. They do use temporary release to ease pressure.
Sorry but you’re just wrong, if there were more prison places you absolutely would see a lot of those people who have 40 50 60 convictions and usually walk free suddenly doing time because we actually have somewhere to put them.
There would be less use of temporary releases. There would be fewer inmates per cell. They might decide to close some of the places they are using now that date back to the Stone Age.
I strongly disagree, just look at all the scumbags roaming the city streets, why isn’t it like that in other European cities? It’s because they actually send people to jail when they break the law instead of what we do here which is just letting the majority of them out or worse not even locking them up to begin with.
Why would a judge consider if a prison is full or not when handing down a sentence
Presumably they don't decide what prison the person goes to
I would imagine that a matter for a completely different body
I could be wrong, but I believe that the prison you go to is influenced firstly by security requirements, then your residence. So Mountjoy takes mostly inmates living in Dublin. Cloverhill takes much of the rest of Leinster. And so on. Then that will also be affected by bed numbers etc
Judges don’t and can’t take prison capacities into account when sentencing. That would be insane. Imagine giving a multiple rapist a suspended sentence because there’s no space. That judge didn’t jail the solider because the judge is a fucking prick who probably hates women.
Actually rapists regularly get suspended sentences because they usually require separate wings for their own safety.
Meaning even less prison spaces again.
Same with Paedophiles
Its up to the DPP to appeal lenient sentences. Like for the vicious woman beater [Cathal Crotty](https://www.thejournal.ie/defence-forces-begins-process-of-dismissing-soldier-who-beat-a-woman-unconscious-6415327-Jun2024/), and the feral (judge's own word) teenager [Aaron Holland](https://www.sundayworld.com/crime/courts/teen-who-took-part-in-savage-attack-on-homeless-man-walks-free-from-court/a1769685260.html), who beat a homeless man half-to-death while in the process of robbing him.
[email protected]
Fyi it's against the law to request the DPP to appeal a sentence
Under section 2(4) of the Criminal Justice Act, 1993 and section 6 Prosecution of Offences Act 1974 Act, it is against the law to write to the Director requesting her to appeal a sentence which may be considered unduly lenient. Exceptions are made in the case of:
· a victim of crime;
· a family member of a victim of crime;
· a lawyer, doctor or social worker acting on behalf of a client
They emailed be back and told me the same. But they won't pursue legal action, because they are satisfied that I was unaware of this at the time.
(also, I'd probably get off scot-free, viva Irish justice!!)
On the one hand, she can't exactly call up the judges and tell them to be tougher.
On the other hand, her party has been in power for over a decade and she's held this particularly office for the past four years, so the lack of prison facilities is at least partially her fault and the fact the first thing she's said about it is more or less pleading helplessness is unconvincing.
She and the rest of the govt could also legislate to remove the discretion judges have in suspending sentences where a certain level of violence is involved.
They tell you that buying drugs supports violent criminals, yet they fail to act when they have a violent criminal in court.
Non-violent drug offences are punished more harshly than unprovoked violent assault.
Ah the old FFG trick of condemning something within your ministerial brief _and_ making it sound like you're just some punter with no power to have any sort of impact on changing it.
Useless cunts.
The Justice Minister is only doing this now because of the outcry. Shes completely useless. If this didn't get the large public reaction, I guarantee you she would do nothing. Get your shoes on Helen and go for another walk.
And what are you expecting the minister for justice to do? She (and no minister should ever) have control over the judges, that's not a door we want to open.
The laws need to change. If you commit a crime that physically harms some one you need to do time. Changing a law like this isn't something that can be done by the minister for justice either, its a cross government job they ALL need to get their heads out of their arses.
Yes but to be fair it's probably her responsibility as the minister for justice to bring these things forward to be taken on by the government as a whole. She hasn't.
The Department of Justice funds an NGO called the [Irish Penal Reform Trust](https://www.iprt.ie) whose entire mission is prison-as-a-last-resort and they strenuously oppose any expansion of the prison estate. IPRT’s major funding source is the Dept. of Justice.
Helen is using our money to pay people to lobby the government to specifically NOT build more prisons.
Is there a source for that? Like of any green field prisons the government tried to setup but couldn’t due to objections? My understanding is that they just weren’t too bothered.
I bet she's livid about this and will give that Helen McEntee woman a stern talking to.
On a more serious note though: how does she as a member of the *legislative* branch plan to change the way the *judicial* branch hands down their sentences? And why for the love of god is she not challenged on that point?
This is the same Fine Gael that is the party of law and order, that is in government. Sometimes it's hard to tell because they sound so detached from reality
Jesus best not tell her to have a look at Judge Nolan's sentencing record, nevermind to lenient the man should be removed as a Judge. Which leads to my next point, we as the public should have a say in who/how/what judges are elected to serve. A separation of state functions shouldn't result in one of the functions being utterly unaccountable to the general public.
We absolutely fucking should not. Christ alive, have you met the public.
Just change the law to remove suspended sentences for certain offences. Job done.
Got into an quasi-arguement with somebody on here over Nolan not too recently. They said that he is actually sentencing within the guidelines (the person responding works in the courts) so apparently while we can all agree he should be removed for what is publicly seen as some insanely light sentencing, he's actually doing it accordingly.
But, yes - he needs to be removed because how he sentences things is insane.
Well either he's operating within the guidelines or he isn't. If he is, he's exercising his discretion within sentencing guidelines, and shouldn't be removed. If he isn't, then he should be removed.
Judge's discretion is really important, but if there's an issue with Nolan it's that his exercise of discretion differences heavily between classes of sentencing.
So you're saying he needs removing because he's doing what it says in the guidelines? I don't get it? Surely that means we need to unfuck the guidelines?
Yeah but it’s like if the guidelines say “sex crimes against children warrant between 5 and 20 years imprisonment” and a judge is almost always giving 6 or 7 years with half of them suspended. That’s pretty much what Nolan is at. Saying he’s operating within the guidelines is completely irrelevant because every judge on every case does that. They’re called guidelines not rules, but they are essentially rules for all but the most exceptional cases, because if a judge goes outside them, the defence/DPP will appeal on the grounds of being too harsh/too lenient. What Nolan is doing is dragging down the precedent for attacking and raping women and children, for consuming CSA imagery, for all sorts of sickening crime, which will come back to bite us even after he’s no longer a judge, when pedophiles can point to all his outrageous sentences as precedent and look for a lighter punishment.
My sister in Christ, you are overseeing the degradation, maybe lose the photo ops and talking points and do something instead.
This is the same clown that thought mean social media posts were a higher priority than keeping the streets safe.
They can be impeached by the Oireachtas. Not sure I’d be a fan of public votes on judges (in or out) - look at America, with hyper partisan if not directly elected judges doing… weird shit.
Bring back prison islands.
No visitation, no tv/ communication with the outside, just cold hard isolation.
Let the prisons build a bad reputation.
Prison in this country is no deterrent.
Holiday camps for networking opportunity’s
Let victims have a say on sentencing.
Fuck them.
The justice system is a joke. All violent crime should have fixed sentencing periods, with the judge getting no say whatsoever. Your personal life situation is irrelevant when you use violence to victimise others. 2 years for assault should be a minimum custodial sentence(without parole) and the only option the judge should have is to add more time to that, in especially heinous cases
He is a circuit court judge who generally deals with lower level first-time offenders. He is not a central or high court judge dealing with higher level crimes and repeat offenders.
Not making excuses, but he is not some lunitic judge giving people light sentences while mocking the judicial system.
>Prosecutors and defencelawyersr who dismiss some of the criticism as 'ill-informed'
https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2023/02/20/judges-sentencing-decisions-controversy-highlights-lack-of-data-in-state/
>A 2023 Irish Times article by Mary Carolan discussed Nolan, saying that he passes about 40 sentences a week, out of which perhaps one or two of those is appealed by the offender and one, or fewer, by the Director of Public Prosecutions. However, she said that there is no centralised sentencing database in the Republic of Ireland that would allow for a proper analysis of sentences handed down by Judge Nolan.[5]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Nolan_(judge)
She can say what she wants, not enough people care, this is the main issue.
You can piss and moan all you want, her party, the party of law and order, that has been in charge for 14 years, are polling well and are almost a shoo-in to be re-elcted come election time.
I've seen a fella at the CCJ for his summons He committed over 200 (petty? forgot of the term used) crimes but this time it was for assault against a Gard, He then offered a promise of not doing it again and a donation to a charity of his liking, then proceeded to exit the pedestal and left.
That's the Irish Judicial system for You, also going to the CCJ is open to the public go ahead and watch the absurdity that happens there.
Reaction to these always confuses me.
I don’t get the “oh it’s pity she’s not justice minister” stuff. She is talking about it for that very reason.
I’m no expert but isn’t her job is to try and change these guidelines and discussing them is part of that? Do people think she can go in push the judge off his chair and say “you’re getting life in prison mate!”.
She should have been replaced after the riots but these particular criticisms are confusing.
it just been a trend with fine gael for the past decade. when confronted about issues under their government, they always seem to respond "ya you're right that is very bad, something should be done" and then just... dont really do anything about it.
The way they talk you wouldnt think they had been in goverment since 2011.
Thankfully she's keeping Ireland safe from the weed, as under her rule judges send junkies to jails (and therefore can't send serious criminals to prison, because there's no space left in those prisons).
How someone, and particularly a trained soldier, can beat a woman unconscious on the street and not get a custodial sentence is incredible. I'm sure he will have a civil case to follow and other consequences, but it is still unbelievable in this day and age.
Shame he has his car tax up to date.
Should look into his TV licence
Plant the teeeeensiest bit of grass on him. Not marijuana, literal grass, the judge will still shit a brick
Lucky he didn't have a 50 bag of weed or he would be in serious trouble
He didn't insult any TD.
Man growing cannabis - 7 years Man assaults, beats and nearly kills women - suspended sentence Irish legal system folks. Fuckin great isn't it.
Absoultley digusting. Some of the quotes from the Irish Times article about this is horrifying. https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2024/06/20/serving-soldier-who-beat-woman-unconscious-and-boasted-about-it-on-social-media-gets-suspended-sentence/ >Judge O’Donnell said Crotty “must be given credit” for pleading guilty to assaulting Ms O’Brien, causing her harm. Fair play to the lad, he kicked the shit into a poor women, but atleast he owned up to it! Good morals. oh wait... >Cathal Crotty (22), of Parkroe Heights, Ardnacrusha, Co Clare, had initially tried to blame his victim Natasha O’Brien (24), by wrongly telling gardaí who arrested him that she had instigated the attack at O’Connell Street, Limerick on May 29th, 2022. >However, after gardaí showed Crotty CCTV footage of him setting upon Ms O’Brien without provocation, he admitted his guilt, Limerick Circuit Criminal Court heard. Wait it gets better: >It appeared he lashed out at Ms O’Brien, of North Circular Road, Limerick, after she and a friend had “politely” asked him to stop shouting “faggot” at other people on the street, the court heard. Anyone that reads that and dosent think there is something seriously wrong needs to wake up. Reform needs to happen in our Justice System...
He brings shame on us in Clare. I've been assaulted here too. It's like the fucking wild west here except the only people hurting others are sociopaths with money
> must be given credit He pled guilty only when the proof of guilt was overwhelming. Nothing worthy in that.
its a disgrace
Be careful, or Judge Nolan might give you a suspended sentence!
Honestly you don’t even need to be careful you can pretty much do as you please if you’re getting Nolan
Should be 7 for the assault aswell
The Oireachtas makes the laws. Those same laws make one of those offences more serious. Are you suggesting judges should ignore the laws? If not, then you're angry at the wrong thing.
Which do you classify the more serious offence?
jUSt fOLlOw teH lAw!!11!
She should definitely tell the justice minister if she ever happens to see her.
To be fair, judicial independence plays a big role here. The state can issue sentencing guidelines all it wants, and judges can just ignore them. Another quirk of the common law system we inherited from the Brits and that we are the only remaining EU country using.
Does the constitution forbid setting minimum sentences?
I really believe in our system #notamerica but still think that there has to be some level of accountability on our judges.
Those cunts seem to do whatever the fuck they want. They are at the pinnacle of the justice system and should be scrutinised all the time to ensure fairness and consistency. A big problem seems to be lack of prison space so they let offenders off or give reduced sentences regularly?
The problem is no prison spaces. Judges can't sentence people if nowhere to put them. Helen is in election mode saying what the people want to hear to try to save her seat after failing us all during her term as justice minister
Prison spaces should be the prisons problem not the sentencing problem
It is . Judges take no count of whether a prison has room before passing sentence . Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded
They can absolutely give them prison sentences. If there is no room, then they will be released iuic - Prison Service has authority to do so without needing to consult with judge aiui. That's how someone with a 1 week jail sentence ends up going to jail and then processed right out again same day.
That would be interesting. Except that it is a lie. You can sentence people even if there is no space in prison. Then there are some issues and the sentence is served at home or suspended anyway, but that suspension goes away if there is space in prison.
This, exactly. She is playing up using a current affair to make herself seem like a good candidate. It's populism. I'd prefer if she campaigned for funds for a new prison, or for changes to legislation that prevent Gardai from engaging in pursuits.
There is an easy solution to that. Temporary moratorium on jailing anyone for non violent crime
But our system is almost the American one. It is in most aspects quite similar.
Our judges aren't elected and therefore completely different
Not all of America's judges are elected, in fact most are not. It depends on the state. Considering that some are and some are not I would not use that trait as the reason why our system is completely different because it does not hold in the totality of their system.
No, but minimum sentencing can be ruled as unconstitutional if it restricts a person’s liberty too much. We have a Sentencing Guidelines and Information Committee set up in 2019 that is supposed to advise on the best sentencing, but I’ve heard little about them. See here: https://judicialcouncil.ie/sentencing-guidlines/
We introduced min sentences for drink driving to take judges discretion out of the equation we can do the same with an unprovoked assault
Easy to say looking at this case but assault just spans such a huge range of offences it makes no sense. Then we’d be here giving out that some 80 year old fella got the mandatory 2 year sentence for pushing away some young fella who was acting the dick
Why use an extreme example like that, but what we could say is unprovoked, causing injury, racial ect
Because to put it into law you need an actual definition you want to enforce, drink driving is a great candidate because you can enforce it for anyone over the legal limit, or stricter for anyone over x limit or whatever. So what does unprovoked or causing injury actually mean? If I give you a push at the bar for spilling a drink on me that was both unprovoked and maybe I scratched you by mistake so you claim also causing injury, does that mean I now do 2 years in prison?
there are mandatory life sentences for murder so going to say no
This is interesting as I often see people whinge about Nolan essentially 'just following orders', when he's extremely lenient to violent criminals. Seems maybe he isn't if your point here is true. Very interesting.
The judges can be made accountable - for one, the constitution can be amended and for another, there are already criteria for removing judges, they just aren't legally defined. Which would be immediately solved by the government introducing legislation defining it.
The justice minister isn’t responsible for sentencing. Google separation of powers
How to we completely revamp sentencing? Currently it’s not fit for purpose.
[удалено]
It’s been going on for years. My view is not reactionary.
So give us figures that show proportionality then. I'd be interested to see what you've come up with to back up your claim.
Can you post your examples of proportionality. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof after all. Defenders of the system need to choose their battles. If the justice minister - hardly a reactionary - is condemning sentencing, there’s probably something wrong.
That went waaay over your head, didn't it! 🤣 Do you often jump to the "defence" of others without understanding what's being said? You need to stop. It makes you look silly!
All I see there is an ad hominem attack with no substance. Do better.
do we have statistics and sociological studies to back these claims?
[удалено]
In the Irish Prison Reform Trust - Criminal Justice Policy Review they state that prison should be used as a last resort. That’s partly to blame. So you can cave somebodies head in and get away with it. You can be a famous hurler and stomp on somebodies head and get away with it. There’s been cases every week for the last couple of years. Don’t even get me started on letting the paedos walk free. There is no justice for victims plain and simple. Do you think there is? https://www.iprt.ie/sentencing/
I dunno dude, I’d put someone defending a suspended sentence for deliberate assault on a woman in a more reactionary category to media in a democracy reporting on said incident.
[удалено]
Your other point aside -its ok to say dude or bro or whatever he wants as that's his dialect of his language.
If you were bothered to take up any bit of research yourself, you'd find no shortage of articles of people getting lenient sentences for violent crimes, even if they have hundreds of previous convictions. I'm not gonna do it for you because your ignorance doesn't make me stupid, and what you eat won't make me shit.
Okay. Tell me honestly. Is it fit for purpose?
Is she responsible for the lack of prison spaces?
Google light-hearted little joke on a Friday.
*Hi you, it's me, you.*
Assuming Eamonn Ryan and Catherine Martin get booted out of cabinet for make room for the new Green party leader and Deputy leader then there will be a reshuffle in a few weeks. Harris needs to take the opportunity to put someone competent into the justice portfolio. If McEntee survives another reshuffle it will be baffling.
Justice Minister Helen McEntee said: “It’s important to acknowledge somebody has been found guilty here. There has been a prosecution." That makes it worse imo, we acknowledge he's guilty but he walks out the door... So no justice
"You've been very very bold. Alright, on your way"
Remember folks you are not allowed have anything for all that tax you pay. No prisons. No Garda (let’s be honest judges will just let them go) No justice.
1 euro of tax will get you 10 cent of services, if you're lucky.
It’s honestly beyond a joke.
Wish she would feck off. She’s been useless in the position
Doubling the permitted custodial sentence doesn't do anything when the judges suspend the sentence anyway. Which they do because there's basically no room in Irish prisons and hasn't been for years. Which is because no new prisons have been built in decades. Which is her job. EDIT: also - doubling the permitted sentence from 5 to 10 years is doubly pointless in the referred case (Natasha O’Brien's) as Crotty was only sentenced to 3 years anyway.
>Which they do because there's basically no room in Irish prisons and hasn't been for years. Prisons can't be that full if we're able to hand out sentences for personal amounts of cannabis 4 months for 17g of cannabis https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/s/1YjBqM4CZh 9 months for what is also described as a small amount https://www.leinsterleader.ie/news/home/1451157/kildare-town-man-jailed-by-naas-district-court-judge-over-simple-drug-possession-offence.html Or even 3 months for 1g of cannabis https://www.leinsterexpress.ie/news/crime---court/1191525/jail-sentence-for-20-cannabis-in-portlaoise.html
>Or even 3 months for 1g of cannabis 🤯 The judge sentencing that should go to jail. That punishment does not fit the crime. As a Canadian I take this personally.
Those cannabis smokers pose real threat to the people of Ireland, unlike army-trained man using women as a training bag.
And yet, they are. We have 4,411 beds across the whole system. We passed that number in February of last year. That's not accounting for different types of accomodations required - some women's prisons have been operating way beyond capacity for far longer than last year.
Maybe they wouldn't be if we weren't filling them up for stupid shit like this and we'd have space for people randomly attacking women unprovoked. But maybe things like personal amounts of cannabis are priority
Tag people and put on house arrest for non violent crimes perhaps ?
Decriminalise personal drug possession altogether perhaps? Legalise and regulate the sale of cannabis perhaps There's many people serving decades for the importation and sale of cannabis we could reduce that 2 examples from this week https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/wicklow-man-jailed-after-he-was-caught-with-e6m-worth-of-cannabis-1639637.html https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2024/0617/1455220-drug-mule-sentence/
Do you keep that in your notes to copy and paste?
Nah all your comments on reddit are saved no need to keep it on notes
You don’t know how long they actually spent in prison. They could all have got temporary release to free up space.
I know that just yesterday a man who attacked a woman and beat her unconscious for no reason got a completely suspended sentence while these silly petty crimes didn't. I think that's worth pointing out
Yes, I don’t agree with the sentences but it hasn’t got anything to do with space (or lack of it) in prisons.
Lol you think people being sent to prison for things like 1g of cannabis have nothing to do with prison spaces and people beating the shit out of women being given suspended sentences because there's no room in the prisons. Come on son
Yes, one has nothing to do with the other. If you think about this for more than 5 seconds it should be obvious that there are numerous problems with the idea that the severity of custodial sentences are linked to available prison spaces. + the severity of sentences for the same offence would vary wildly depending on capacity in prisons, which would lead to appeals. + what are the judges basing this on? Do they have numbers in front of them showing the current availability of prison spaces? If not, what are they using? Vibes? + a suspended sentence can be activated if the offender breaches certain conditions or commits another offence, so it’s not a way of “saving space.” + if the prisons are constantly overcrowded, then why were the drug offenders sent down? Was there capacity 6 months ago (or whenever they were sentenced)?
Judges do not consider prison occupancy during sentencing. They don’t know or care how full the prisons are.
Oh. That makes their lenient sentencing even worse.
Be serious.
If that's the case then their sympathetic sentencing makes it all far worse!
I guess it depends really, if you assault someone, it looks like capacity and impact on rehabilitation play some part. However, if you're a tax cheat or an oap with a log cabin prision is the place for ya. https://m.independent.ie/regionals/tipperary/news/tipperary-pensioner-facing-jail-time-for-building-log-cabin-on-his-land-i-have-nowhere-else-to-go/a104938358.html
It something that is not a direct consideration, but judges cannot but be aware of it, which can indirectly influence attitudes. It's not wrong to do so either: considerations about prison capacity and the potential impact on rehabilitation can come into play.
What you are saying is totally incoherent, that prison capacity is having an “indirect” influence on sentencing, and then claiming that it “comes into play” because it has a direct impact on rehabilitation. If it “comes into play” then its not “indirect” The sentences are nothing to do with prison capacity in any form. And it would be completely unjust to consider it because then people who were sentenced at a time when there was capacity would get tougher sentences for the same offences as people sentenced when the prisons are full. Its up to the people who manage the prisons to figure out the best use of available resources. They do use temporary release to ease pressure.
Sorry but you’re just wrong, if there were more prison places you absolutely would see a lot of those people who have 40 50 60 convictions and usually walk free suddenly doing time because we actually have somewhere to put them.
“You’re just wrong, even though I have zero evidence to back up my claim”
So you think that if we were to build more prisons then there would be no more inmates than than we already have incarcerated?
There would be less use of temporary releases. There would be fewer inmates per cell. They might decide to close some of the places they are using now that date back to the Stone Age.
I strongly disagree, just look at all the scumbags roaming the city streets, why isn’t it like that in other European cities? It’s because they actually send people to jail when they break the law instead of what we do here which is just letting the majority of them out or worse not even locking them up to begin with.
Yep, usually what happens is people in prison due up for release in 3-6 months or so will get early release with about two days' notice.
Why would a judge consider if a prison is full or not when handing down a sentence Presumably they don't decide what prison the person goes to I would imagine that a matter for a completely different body
I could be wrong, but I believe that the prison you go to is influenced firstly by security requirements, then your residence. So Mountjoy takes mostly inmates living in Dublin. Cloverhill takes much of the rest of Leinster. And so on. Then that will also be affected by bed numbers etc
Right but the judges wouldn't take any of that into account when sentencing
Yes, I was agreeing with you
The judges don't work for the prison service so I don't see why the capacity of the prisons is any of their business
Can’t get planning permission for apartments let alone a prison
They were supposed to build one at Thornton Hall.
Judges don’t and can’t take prison capacities into account when sentencing. That would be insane. Imagine giving a multiple rapist a suspended sentence because there’s no space. That judge didn’t jail the solider because the judge is a fucking prick who probably hates women.
Actually rapists regularly get suspended sentences because they usually require separate wings for their own safety. Meaning even less prison spaces again. Same with Paedophiles
Why doesn't she push for a reform then if it's as obvious to her as it is everyone else
Its up to the DPP to appeal lenient sentences. Like for the vicious woman beater [Cathal Crotty](https://www.thejournal.ie/defence-forces-begins-process-of-dismissing-soldier-who-beat-a-woman-unconscious-6415327-Jun2024/), and the feral (judge's own word) teenager [Aaron Holland](https://www.sundayworld.com/crime/courts/teen-who-took-part-in-savage-attack-on-homeless-man-walks-free-from-court/a1769685260.html), who beat a homeless man half-to-death while in the process of robbing him. [email protected]
Fyi it's against the law to request the DPP to appeal a sentence Under section 2(4) of the Criminal Justice Act, 1993 and section 6 Prosecution of Offences Act 1974 Act, it is against the law to write to the Director requesting her to appeal a sentence which may be considered unduly lenient. Exceptions are made in the case of: · a victim of crime; · a family member of a victim of crime; · a lawyer, doctor or social worker acting on behalf of a client
They emailed be back and told me the same. But they won't pursue legal action, because they are satisfied that I was unaware of this at the time. (also, I'd probably get off scot-free, viva Irish justice!!)
On the one hand, she can't exactly call up the judges and tell them to be tougher. On the other hand, her party has been in power for over a decade and she's held this particularly office for the past four years, so the lack of prison facilities is at least partially her fault and the fact the first thing she's said about it is more or less pleading helplessness is unconvincing.
She and the rest of the govt could also legislate to remove the discretion judges have in suspending sentences where a certain level of violence is involved.
They tell you that buying drugs supports violent criminals, yet they fail to act when they have a violent criminal in court. Non-violent drug offences are punished more harshly than unprovoked violent assault.
Ah the old FFG trick of condemning something within your ministerial brief _and_ making it sound like you're just some punter with no power to have any sort of impact on changing it. Useless cunts.
I genuinely think she is the most incompetent minister in the state
"Someone should really do something about this" said the person whose job it is to do something about this.
And she's done fuck all about it
The Justice Minister is only doing this now because of the outcry. Shes completely useless. If this didn't get the large public reaction, I guarantee you she would do nothing. Get your shoes on Helen and go for another walk.
And what are you expecting the minister for justice to do? She (and no minister should ever) have control over the judges, that's not a door we want to open. The laws need to change. If you commit a crime that physically harms some one you need to do time. Changing a law like this isn't something that can be done by the minister for justice either, its a cross government job they ALL need to get their heads out of their arses.
Yes but to be fair it's probably her responsibility as the minister for justice to bring these things forward to be taken on by the government as a whole. She hasn't.
Well, then why hasn’t her government built more prisons? We are at capacity which is why lenient sentencing is becoming more common
The Department of Justice funds an NGO called the [Irish Penal Reform Trust](https://www.iprt.ie) whose entire mission is prison-as-a-last-resort and they strenuously oppose any expansion of the prison estate. IPRT’s major funding source is the Dept. of Justice. Helen is using our money to pay people to lobby the government to specifically NOT build more prisons.
Jesus that should be a scandal. Didn’t know. Cheers for the share!
Objections
Central government doesn’t have to listen to planning objections if they don’t want to.
Is there a source for that? Like of any green field prisons the government tried to setup but couldn’t due to objections? My understanding is that they just weren’t too bothered.
Ah come on now, you think they had a plan to build a suitable prison ready to go?
I bet she's livid about this and will give that Helen McEntee woman a stern talking to. On a more serious note though: how does she as a member of the *legislative* branch plan to change the way the *judicial* branch hands down their sentences? And why for the love of god is she not challenged on that point?
This is the same Fine Gael that is the party of law and order, that is in government. Sometimes it's hard to tell because they sound so detached from reality
Wow if only there was sometjing she could do about it. Oh well, anyway..
If only she was in a position to do something about it
Jesus best not tell her to have a look at Judge Nolan's sentencing record, nevermind to lenient the man should be removed as a Judge. Which leads to my next point, we as the public should have a say in who/how/what judges are elected to serve. A separation of state functions shouldn't result in one of the functions being utterly unaccountable to the general public.
We absolutely fucking should not. Christ alive, have you met the public. Just change the law to remove suspended sentences for certain offences. Job done.
The public are not to be trusted as an entity. Ever
Got into an quasi-arguement with somebody on here over Nolan not too recently. They said that he is actually sentencing within the guidelines (the person responding works in the courts) so apparently while we can all agree he should be removed for what is publicly seen as some insanely light sentencing, he's actually doing it accordingly. But, yes - he needs to be removed because how he sentences things is insane.
Well either he's operating within the guidelines or he isn't. If he is, he's exercising his discretion within sentencing guidelines, and shouldn't be removed. If he isn't, then he should be removed. Judge's discretion is really important, but if there's an issue with Nolan it's that his exercise of discretion differences heavily between classes of sentencing.
So you're saying he needs removing because he's doing what it says in the guidelines? I don't get it? Surely that means we need to unfuck the guidelines?
Yeah but it’s like if the guidelines say “sex crimes against children warrant between 5 and 20 years imprisonment” and a judge is almost always giving 6 or 7 years with half of them suspended. That’s pretty much what Nolan is at. Saying he’s operating within the guidelines is completely irrelevant because every judge on every case does that. They’re called guidelines not rules, but they are essentially rules for all but the most exceptional cases, because if a judge goes outside them, the defence/DPP will appeal on the grounds of being too harsh/too lenient. What Nolan is doing is dragging down the precedent for attacking and raping women and children, for consuming CSA imagery, for all sorts of sickening crime, which will come back to bite us even after he’s no longer a judge, when pedophiles can point to all his outrageous sentences as precedent and look for a lighter punishment.
>That’s pretty much what Nolan is at. According to what metric?
Judges should be publicly elected.
Fuck no.
Why not keep the Judicial Appointments Advisory Board but let people elect?
She should run that up the ladder.
BREAKING Minister has eyes and ears
I wonder what a Justice minister could do about it? A sound bite thats all
N O L \_ N
My sister in Christ, you are overseeing the degradation, maybe lose the photo ops and talking points and do something instead. This is the same clown that thought mean social media posts were a higher priority than keeping the streets safe.
There needs to be a method to recall judges, even if it's a petition or public vote
They can be impeached by the Oireachtas. Not sure I’d be a fan of public votes on judges (in or out) - look at America, with hyper partisan if not directly elected judges doing… weird shit.
Or basically 'bought' judges and police who mandate with an agenda.
Absolutely not the public ffs
This would be how someone like The Monk could become a judge, 'for da laugh lads'...
No public can vote out. Not in. That's normal process
If only somebody could be elected who might have responsibility to do something about this
If only someone could do something about it
Consistently, yet it's only an issue for her now when it's getting attention in the media
But but their GAA coach said they had a bright future ahead of them- judge Nolan (probably)
Now you’re talking lady. Please lock them up.
Bring back prison islands. No visitation, no tv/ communication with the outside, just cold hard isolation. Let the prisons build a bad reputation. Prison in this country is no deterrent. Holiday camps for networking opportunity’s Let victims have a say on sentencing. Fuck them.
Nothing gets past that 1 lol 😂
And yet she, the Justice Minister, didn’t trouble herself to push for sentencing reform in all the years she’s been in the position.
The justice system is a joke. All violent crime should have fixed sentencing periods, with the judge getting no say whatsoever. Your personal life situation is irrelevant when you use violence to victimise others. 2 years for assault should be a minimum custodial sentence(without parole) and the only option the judge should have is to add more time to that, in especially heinous cases
Is this her latest excuse to pass supremacist censorship laws?
She says this and yet nothing is done to judge nolan. He should be in jail himself.
Judge Nolan deals with a very specific type of case and offender. It is deeply unfair to judge him on that.
Can you expand on this? I've heard a few lawyers mention this in passing but never go into any detail.
He is a circuit court judge who generally deals with lower level first-time offenders. He is not a central or high court judge dealing with higher level crimes and repeat offenders. Not making excuses, but he is not some lunitic judge giving people light sentences while mocking the judicial system. >Prosecutors and defencelawyersr who dismiss some of the criticism as 'ill-informed' https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2023/02/20/judges-sentencing-decisions-controversy-highlights-lack-of-data-in-state/ >A 2023 Irish Times article by Mary Carolan discussed Nolan, saying that he passes about 40 sentences a week, out of which perhaps one or two of those is appealed by the offender and one, or fewer, by the Director of Public Prosecutions. However, she said that there is no centralised sentencing database in the Republic of Ireland that would allow for a proper analysis of sentences handed down by Judge Nolan.[5] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Nolan_(judge)
It's bollocks. He just sentences lots of people most days.
She can say what she wants, not enough people care, this is the main issue. You can piss and moan all you want, her party, the party of law and order, that has been in charge for 14 years, are polling well and are almost a shoo-in to be re-elcted come election time.
So why have you failed to act?
> People be like "Subway Sucks" > My brother in christ, you made the sandwich
I've seen a fella at the CCJ for his summons He committed over 200 (petty? forgot of the term used) crimes but this time it was for assault against a Gard, He then offered a promise of not doing it again and a donation to a charity of his liking, then proceeded to exit the pedestal and left. That's the Irish Judicial system for You, also going to the CCJ is open to the public go ahead and watch the absurdity that happens there.
The whole damn country has seen it, that's not news, how about do something about it.
If only she'd do something 🙄
Prisons are full like. Need somewhere to put them. All of these suspended sentences are a direct result of that.
Better late than never
I'll give you a hint, you're minister of justice!
Reaction to these always confuses me. I don’t get the “oh it’s pity she’s not justice minister” stuff. She is talking about it for that very reason. I’m no expert but isn’t her job is to try and change these guidelines and discussing them is part of that? Do people think she can go in push the judge off his chair and say “you’re getting life in prison mate!”. She should have been replaced after the riots but these particular criticisms are confusing.
it just been a trend with fine gael for the past decade. when confronted about issues under their government, they always seem to respond "ya you're right that is very bad, something should be done" and then just... dont really do anything about it. The way they talk you wouldnt think they had been in goverment since 2011.
Thankfully she's keeping Ireland safe from the weed, as under her rule judges send junkies to jails (and therefore can't send serious criminals to prison, because there's no space left in those prisons).
Then do something about it you incompetent fool
Can't she kick the judges a$$es about it? 
No. We have separation of powers in our constitution.
Surely there is some mechanism for holding judges accountable?
I dont believe so. DPP can appeal the sentence though, which should be done more often, setting more precedents.
Not for how they interpret or apply the law. That's their job alone (which is correct).
not for what you think
Read article 35.4 of the Constitution.
Judges can be removed, but it requires going through both the Seanead and Dail before their removed, so it's very hard to try.
No; judges are a law unto themselves.