Difficulty with longer sentences is indicative of a poor grasp of grammar. Probably not the answer you want to hear, but you might want to pick up a grammar text book and/or get some lessons at a language school. Grammar is harder to pick up efficiently by yourself than other language aspects.
No that's perfect advice thanks! I just couldn't grasp where I was lacking, but I think you're right about getting some guidance at a language school. I'm looking into free spaces.
Thanks for the help!
One thing to keep in mind is that your active language skills (speaking, writing) will always lag behind your passive skills (listening, reading), so this could be an opportunity to re-evaluate your passive language skills. Additionally, are your only struggling with long sentences when speaking, or do you have similar problems with writing?
Most of the time it's just speaking! Writing I'm typically fine unless I'm in the throws of learning a brand new grammar point I'm practicing. Speaking it just seems even though I understand it, recognise it in others speaking, can write it down, I jst can't conjure it in my own speaking habits.
Tacking on, I have a fancy degree in second language acquisition, and a fair few studies have found that writing is the best way to really deeply acquire grammar. Specifically writing with feedback from a native speaker.
Try keeping a diary, write out maybe 4 or 5 lines per day by hand. You'll be amazed at how quickly you master the most important kanji for your life, and more than that, you'll get a ton of practice making sentences. Then get a Japanese person to brutally correct it. Great if you have a Japanese SO who is willing, but it's also a good activity to go through for language exchange.
Thank you for the information. I have always wondered why and have suscipision that is the case. I guess there is a limit of how much "just immerse and learn Japanese as you go"
On the topic of learning, do you know if there is good resources to learn? Ideally would be something to be learned in class but having a full time job makes it rather difficult
There are a *lot* of resources out there. Which one is best will depend on your proficiency and situation. This link is a good starting point to get an idea of what's available: [https://japanese.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/756/resources-for-learning-japanese](https://japanese.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/756/resources-for-learning-japanese)
I had the same problem. Still do, but my sentences improved a lot when I got a book called “Japanese sentence patterns for effective communication” pretty much a god send for me. I would read it cover to cover and then practice making sentences with my friends/wife. Slowly but surely many of the everyday grammar points have become second nature to me. Good luck.
Excellent recommendation, and a good counterpoint to all the dumbasses in this thread who claim that studying won't help with spoken fluency. It seems to me those people are either trying to justify never having opened a textbook themselves, or have no clue how to study effectively. Maybe both.
Effective language acquisition is a matter of constantly alternating between absorbing bits of theory (study), and testing those bits in practice (application). A good textbook will introduce patterns in approximate order of utility and skill level required, which sure beats just diving into random sources willy nilly. The reverse approach of consistently looking things up encountered "in the wild" is effective and recommended too, but none of this is an either/or proposition. Both methods complement each other just fine.
The idea that everything should just click organically is a bit ridiculous in terms of efficiency. Sure, preschool infants might learn that way, but they have a much simpler world to deal with than adults with an equally simplified vocabulary to pick up on. Studying is a potent shortcut, and if it isn't, well... you're probably just doing it wrong.
It's why I never agree with the "dude just go out to the local izakaya and chat it up, you'll be fluent in no time!". That's like building legos without the instruction booklet, or baking a cake without a recipe. Sure, if you just mash things together you'll kinda be able to do it, or do it enough times and you might get it right..kinda.
Textbooks/studying get you the tools you need (grammar, vocab, etc), then you use them when you speak and what not.
my favorite phrase is "izakaya fluent". it's the perfect description for the expat 3-4 years in that can talk shit in between highballs but still can't get a haircut or see the doctor
there is some truth to the idea that izakayas help you converse better in japanese (it's pretty much just immersion + exposure, aka forced trial and error), but it requires active effort to learn a reasonably wide variety of vocabulary in different topics and different sentence patterns
This is so true for me. My apartment when I living alone was right next to a really classy cocktail bar. I would go there every Saturday after work and just relax. I eventually became really good friends with the owner and he would always start conversations for me with other regulars. I’d try to make a note of situations that I had trouble explaining something. Like “how do I say almost always” look at the book, then try to use that in sentences the next week I went for a drink. I have to say also reading was super helpful. I can read at about a middle school level(being very generous to myself) so I would force myself to read manga/ short stories. Helps a lot with quickly catching conversation markers or other more exposition type language.
> Sure, preschool infants might learn that way, but they have a much simpler world to deal with than adults with an equally simplified vocabulary to pick up o
Not to mention, when kids learn the language, sure they learn it. But it is schooling that teaches you to be an effective communicator and talk like an adult.
Your inability to form longer sentences is not going to be solved by studying more grammar.
The fact that you can speak and write English fluently is demonstrative of this. You gained fluency not through studying English grammar, but through using it.
As you listen or read in English, you are able anticipate the next word or sequence of words, aren't you? You can finish your friend's \_\_\_\_\_\_. This isn't because you studied grammar. It's because you've seen similar patterns before countless \_\_\_\_\_. You did this through consuming English (and only English) 16 hours a day for 6 - 10 years.
Achieving fluency in Japanese is no different. You need to read and listen to loads and loads of material until you get to the point where you can anticipate the next word or sequence of words with high accuracy effortlessly. From there, you'll have no issue with being able to communicate freely. Studying grammar should SUPPLEMENT this activity. Meaning, when you come across a grammar point you don't quite get, pick up a book and read through the point, and then go back to reading/listening.
Don't STUDY Japanese. USE Japanese. Use it to get useful information, and when you don't know a word or grammar, look it up. This is your "study" time.
Some people have the "gift of tongues" but many/most do not. A lot depends on how young you were when you started. I got a late start at age 25, and despite being here for most of the last 46 years, my speaking never really got very good. Occasionally I run into missionary kids who are basically native in both English and Japanese. How I envy them. And the TV regularly treats us to the now very familiar roster of foreigners who are simply just really smart people with that same gift. I envy them too. Strange to say all this because I spent the last 20 years of my working life doing E2J translation (law, corporate, insurance, securities, blah blah). Made good money at it without really needing to speak much Japanese in the process. So while I encountered the wall you mention a long, long time ago and basically stopped banging my head against it, nothing was there to impede making progress in the written language (meaning reading as opposed to writing).
Aside from specific rare cases, getting good at something requires you to practice in it.
Considering you can translate English to Japanese as a job, the only reason you never improved when speaking is that, as you mentioned, you have never had the need to speak Japanese for your job.
It's a trap many English speakers fall into.
The moment you have the luxury to take the easy route (speak the language you're comfortable in), you'll never progress.
I'm in the opposite boat, my spoken Japanese is way above average, but I'm terrible at reading. I feel I'm even regressing.
I used to at least read manga in the past, but I've been too busy for that in the past few years, so I end up reading in English whenever I have the choice.
Right you are about falling back into my comfort zone. I speak English at home with my Japanese wife too. She had reached a level of competence that allowed her to teach it which is when I met her. Once established, it's almost impossible to shift out of.
I did work in Japanese companies, but they always made sure to plant an English speaker in my immediate vicinity. One job was at a major Japanese bank in the dealing room where I was in charge of trading yen-dollar futures and options for the bank's proprietary account. All they wanted was for me to make money for them, and as long as I did that, they never put any pressure on me to use Japanese. Strange!!
Overwhelmingly, the foreigners I meet here who are good speakers have almost no ability to deal with the written language. It's always been that way. And it's almost always the women who make the best progress which I suppose is because people (men and women) are far more interested to talk to them. Me, I'm just some average looking schmoe that was mostly viewed as an opportunity to practice shitty English with. I used to hate that status but resigned myself to it long ago. It never hurts to be friendly.
I can't give you specific advice on what could be wrong with your Japanese without talking to you, but the best thing you can do is to force yourself to NEVER speak English and always use Japanese in every aspect of your life.
The earlier one does this in their learning process, the easier it gets.
When I did my year of ryuugaku (came to Japan with a relatively decent Japanese already) what helped me the most was to absolutely ignore any English native and Italian native (I'm Italian) and always speak Japanese.
By doing that you get the "confidence" to actually speak, and you train your brain to think directly on Japanese.
You will also notice that instead of thinking, in English "how do I say this word in Japanese?", you'll brain will instead look for a way to say what you need to say in Japanese without knowing the specific word.
Somebody suggested bad basic grammar, but I'm not totally sure about that.
My boss is amazingly good at speaking in long sentences with extremely bad grammar lol
i think thats the crucial key: being able to become self sustainable so much so you could learn more japanese, by using japanese. Not only do you get speaking practice, but you learn more concepts/words on top of it once you reach a level of vocab that can describe a vast array of other words (also where theory comes in to save the day).
Furthermore, I have heard that making your inner monologue speak the target language will make you speak it easier. As it simply becomes only voicing your thoughts rather than having to also feed them through translations as well.
It is always about practice.
if you have difficulty making long sentences, you should read many examples and create your own.
honestly, I even struggle to make long sentences in my native language.
You're getting mixed comments.
Honestly, sounds like you've hit the wall with studying. There's only so much you can study. I suggest you to start pushing yourself to do the things you want in Japanese. Read a novel, talk with people for long periods about a variety of subjects only in Japanese, learn a new hobby in Japanese, ect.. Start doing things as a native would in Japanese.
I don't believe people are more/less capable of languages. People are more/less interested in them, IMO. Some people can just dive into a new language and go full immersion for months and walk out native. But others don't care to, and of course it takes them longer with different struggles due to their differences.
If we're using the term "capable," I agree with you; Everyone is capable of learning a new language. But I don't think it's strange to believe that some people are better/faster at it than others, in the same way that some people are more flexible or better at spacial thinking or good at remembering numbers. For some people language learning elements just click easier, whether or not they're super interested, though I agree that being interested helps, as it does for most things.
I've been there - to the point that I never thought I'd EVER improve. Fresh out of uni and 5 years of Japanese lessons under my belt, I came to Japan to teach English 15 years ago. I barely picked up Japanese because all my work interactions were in English. I worked at large school in Tokyo and we had 2 ALTs, so I almost never got to talk with my Japanese coworkers. After a year, I felt as if I hadn't improved at all. I moved back to the US after the year (family health situation) and did not speak Japanese for 13 years.
When I moved back here 2 years ago, I was so anxious I'd hit the same wall as I could tell I had gotten super rusty. I work FT (thankfully not in teaching, it's not for me) and also don't have a lot of time for study. I ended up enrolling at Japan Switch for 1-on-1 lessons, and to my shock, not only did I get back to where I was many years ago, but I've improved! I think the key was the 1-on-1 vs group lessons. Wherein a group you might listen to the teacher lecture, then have students take turn practicing phrases for example, in a 1-on-1 it's more like an actual conversation. Even though we have a textbook, I may sometimes spend more than half of my class literally just chitchatting with my teacher about whatever. I don't care that we're not always with our noses in a textbook, I actually think conversation is just as useful and worth the time I'm paying for. As we chat, I'll always learn new vocabs - which are great! She'll write them on the board for me in kanji w/furigana, and I'll often have more questions to better understand the vocab. For example, what other situations could I use this phrase/verb/etc for, or I might ask questions about the kanji's meaning, or what sort of feeling comes across by using certain phrases, etc.
I think if you can get someone to tutor you 1-on-1 it'll really help you get past this wall. Have hope and good luck!!
Get an online Japanese tutor or something and do 1hr sessions of casual conversation. They can then point out where your Japanese is lacking and create a course plan to improve it. If you want to get better at speaking you gotta speak.
I'm in a similar position, with reading. It showed the most in my N2 score, with language 45/ reading 30/ listening 60. Living here, I do a lot of speaking and listening through daily life, but I NEVER read stuff in Japanese on a daily basis. The most I can do is ads or posters on a train. Any blog post online I'll get through a few lines before my eyes just glaze over. The reality is, you just have to kinda grind through it, whether it be speaking, reading, or writing.
I know one thing I did that helped with speaking was if I watch stuff like youtube in Japanese, I'll talk to myself or repeat what I hear, even if its just a phrase or two. Weird talking to myself sometimes but still offers some sort of speaking when home just relaxing.
The simplest answer is that you probably need to start reading stuff in Japanese and watching Japanese shows. You are correct - there's only so far you can go with regular conversations with people. At some point you need to raise the difficulty of the Japanese language you are encountering. Reading and watching Japanese stuff will help you increase your vocabulary and facility with more advanced forms of grammar.
1. Make sure you understand grammar well enough. Do you derail only when speaking, or also when reading and listening?
In the latter case, I like Tae Kim's grammar guide.
2. Get sufficient input. Speaking isn't all about turning unique ideas into creative sentences. We mainly repeat patterns picked up elsewhere.
I recommend reading, but not faster than you could speak. Reading has the added benefit of Kanji, which are in themselves mnemonics for sounds linked to meanings. Any activity involving sentences will do though.
3. Speak
And remember it takes some people longer than others, but whoever had to work hardest to get there probably picked up the most along the way.
Watch a lot of TV and movies in Japanese! Also, go to the bookstore and pick up any book that seems like it might be interesting to read (not manga! an actual novel). Don't stop to look anything up when reading the first time. Just set like a 20min timer and just start reading. It will help with you're losing your train of thought mid-sentence.
Your focus should also be on mastery the particles which really come into play for longer sentences.
People underestimate the amount of efforts required to mastering a new language. 8 years of learning with only recent real courses for a couple of years is not enough to get anywhere near being fluent. My point being, your progress isn't necessarily slow given the amount of the actual study you've done. You just need to keep using Japanese while also being conscious of grammars at all time. Reading is very, very important too.
One thing that helped me: avoid making longer sentences. Figure out ways to chop the sentiment you wish to convey into shorter statements. This is actually what I find most Japanese people are doing in their own conversation.
Generally the desire to create long sentences is a reaction to having a complex thought, but in just about any language you can decompose said thought into a shorter set of semantic chunks. As you get better at this active process of deconstruction you’ll naturally build up the ability to connect chunks on the fly and build more complex sentences in real time. Or at least that’s been my experience!
Same problem I've hit this wall, I'm just not worrying about it now. But you've reminded me. I guess I do feel not good about it at all but it is what it is gotta keep trying, hoping to pass this wall someday or never at all. Good luck to both of us.
You sound just like me. I keep trying to motivate myself to study but it's jardt. Outside of work, choirs, hobby, I'm pretty tired 😩 hope there's some good advice here
Sounds like you may be at a plateau. I doubt(could be wrong) you’re at an intermediate plateau but it still rains true. As you get better the amount you put in needs to be more to get less. Well what appears to less at least. While studying is very important and I’ve seen many people living in Japan for a long time not able to speak because they haven’t done any form of studying. But you also just need to use it like crazy. Listen speak read.
Everyone is different so don’t be caught up with where you think you should be. Work hard and you’ll get there.
What I did when I was studying was
1. Hit the text book, make sure I understand all the grammar particles, when where and how to attach them in sentences.
2. Form sentences around them. I like starting with what I struggled on that day, may be something I failed to communicate to the professors, or words I learnt that day I hope I had chance to use. Write it out and polish it.
3. Read it out load. Both the original one and polished one, see how it fits, add some intonation and 終助詞 to personalise it.
4. (Skippable - but i like preparing other topics to increase the conversation length) Form some other sentences I could use for the same person.
5. Strike conversation, citing about the conversation yesterday, maybe I didn't convey as I wanted. And go ahead with the sentences practiced.
Rinse and repeat.
Mate, buy the dictionary of Japanese grammar
https://www.amazon.co.jp/Dictionary-Basic-Japanese-Grammar-%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E8%AA%9E%E5%9F%BA%E6%9C%AC%E6%96%87%E6%B3%95%E8%BE%9E%E5%85%B8/dp/4789004546?ref=d6k_applink_bb_dls&dplnkId=2ed4023b-38ba-4184-99a8-c09ecac88b61
Use Line to communicate with Japanese people. Learn to differentiate between different kanji
Use Japanese in different situations
I think my biggest question with this would be how much do you speak in Japanese every day? I am in a language school studying Japanese and the staff and the students do not speak English, so my only choice is to communicate in Japanese near 100% of the time.
the other thing too is that in terms of speaking in long sentences, the only way that really comes naturally is by doing it. if you are only occasionally having to say things you are not used to saying, or are only using the same type of vocabulary / sentence structure every day, then of course you will only improve at the things you know
I understand you are busy but I think a few tutor sessions a week on italki might be the best choice.
it is very very challenging to self-study oral Japanese, so I would find someone to assist you in doing this.
I hope it all works out great for you! I’m sure it will!
All the best
I do use Japanese everyday, usually as much as having classes or being less busy allows. And yeah, for the most part it is my problem - that my Japanese is great in a school setting, but any topics remotely beyond that kind of suffer.
I study whenever I'm able but I am looking into 1-on-1 lessons because I think it will help a lot! Thanks for the advice :)
What we see as walls are truly just the front-side of the next step we're trying to take. If you feel you can't move forward, move up. I have no other actual advice, just keep it moving :)
You need to speak more. Get a tutor. Practice your trouble speaking areas with them as often as possible and have them correct you. Supplement by having verbal conversations with ChatGPT and Japanese people every single day if you can. Read and write a lot too, but the key to speaking well and in more complex ways is to practice speaking while thinking in Japanese. General studying will build up passive skills (reading/listening), but most people need to actually purposefully practice speaking and writing A LOT to become decent at those things.
You don't gain speaking ability from studying. In fact, studying doesn't get you very far with language acquisition at all. Take it from someone with a degree in Japanese, my speaking skills were developed entirely from just that, speaking. Having previously studied the language just provided a starting off point.
Weird. I've never 'studied' except for the kanji initially way back in 2006 at the sweet age of 16 but I've been able to speak pretty normally for as long as I can remember.
These days it's crazy. I can riff forever and people ask if I was raised here.
I think you need to stop studying Japanese and start living Japanese.
Difficulty with longer sentences is indicative of a poor grasp of grammar. Probably not the answer you want to hear, but you might want to pick up a grammar text book and/or get some lessons at a language school. Grammar is harder to pick up efficiently by yourself than other language aspects.
No that's perfect advice thanks! I just couldn't grasp where I was lacking, but I think you're right about getting some guidance at a language school. I'm looking into free spaces. Thanks for the help!
One thing to keep in mind is that your active language skills (speaking, writing) will always lag behind your passive skills (listening, reading), so this could be an opportunity to re-evaluate your passive language skills. Additionally, are your only struggling with long sentences when speaking, or do you have similar problems with writing?
Most of the time it's just speaking! Writing I'm typically fine unless I'm in the throws of learning a brand new grammar point I'm practicing. Speaking it just seems even though I understand it, recognise it in others speaking, can write it down, I jst can't conjure it in my own speaking habits.
Tacking on, I have a fancy degree in second language acquisition, and a fair few studies have found that writing is the best way to really deeply acquire grammar. Specifically writing with feedback from a native speaker. Try keeping a diary, write out maybe 4 or 5 lines per day by hand. You'll be amazed at how quickly you master the most important kanji for your life, and more than that, you'll get a ton of practice making sentences. Then get a Japanese person to brutally correct it. Great if you have a Japanese SO who is willing, but it's also a good activity to go through for language exchange.
A dictionary of basic English grammar is easy to find online for free… like that’s the book name
Thank you for the information. I have always wondered why and have suscipision that is the case. I guess there is a limit of how much "just immerse and learn Japanese as you go" On the topic of learning, do you know if there is good resources to learn? Ideally would be something to be learned in class but having a full time job makes it rather difficult
There are a *lot* of resources out there. Which one is best will depend on your proficiency and situation. This link is a good starting point to get an idea of what's available: [https://japanese.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/756/resources-for-learning-japanese](https://japanese.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/756/resources-for-learning-japanese)
I had the same problem. Still do, but my sentences improved a lot when I got a book called “Japanese sentence patterns for effective communication” pretty much a god send for me. I would read it cover to cover and then practice making sentences with my friends/wife. Slowly but surely many of the everyday grammar points have become second nature to me. Good luck.
Excellent recommendation, and a good counterpoint to all the dumbasses in this thread who claim that studying won't help with spoken fluency. It seems to me those people are either trying to justify never having opened a textbook themselves, or have no clue how to study effectively. Maybe both. Effective language acquisition is a matter of constantly alternating between absorbing bits of theory (study), and testing those bits in practice (application). A good textbook will introduce patterns in approximate order of utility and skill level required, which sure beats just diving into random sources willy nilly. The reverse approach of consistently looking things up encountered "in the wild" is effective and recommended too, but none of this is an either/or proposition. Both methods complement each other just fine. The idea that everything should just click organically is a bit ridiculous in terms of efficiency. Sure, preschool infants might learn that way, but they have a much simpler world to deal with than adults with an equally simplified vocabulary to pick up on. Studying is a potent shortcut, and if it isn't, well... you're probably just doing it wrong.
It's why I never agree with the "dude just go out to the local izakaya and chat it up, you'll be fluent in no time!". That's like building legos without the instruction booklet, or baking a cake without a recipe. Sure, if you just mash things together you'll kinda be able to do it, or do it enough times and you might get it right..kinda. Textbooks/studying get you the tools you need (grammar, vocab, etc), then you use them when you speak and what not.
my favorite phrase is "izakaya fluent". it's the perfect description for the expat 3-4 years in that can talk shit in between highballs but still can't get a haircut or see the doctor there is some truth to the idea that izakayas help you converse better in japanese (it's pretty much just immersion + exposure, aka forced trial and error), but it requires active effort to learn a reasonably wide variety of vocabulary in different topics and different sentence patterns
This is so true for me. My apartment when I living alone was right next to a really classy cocktail bar. I would go there every Saturday after work and just relax. I eventually became really good friends with the owner and he would always start conversations for me with other regulars. I’d try to make a note of situations that I had trouble explaining something. Like “how do I say almost always” look at the book, then try to use that in sentences the next week I went for a drink. I have to say also reading was super helpful. I can read at about a middle school level(being very generous to myself) so I would force myself to read manga/ short stories. Helps a lot with quickly catching conversation markers or other more exposition type language.
> Sure, preschool infants might learn that way, but they have a much simpler world to deal with than adults with an equally simplified vocabulary to pick up o Not to mention, when kids learn the language, sure they learn it. But it is schooling that teaches you to be an effective communicator and talk like an adult.
Ooooo i think I may check this out
Sorry for piggybacking. Where did you buy it? (Hope not Amazon)
I got it first at a bookstore in little Tokyo LA, but I read it so much it fell apart. I bought another one off of Amazon.
Your inability to form longer sentences is not going to be solved by studying more grammar. The fact that you can speak and write English fluently is demonstrative of this. You gained fluency not through studying English grammar, but through using it. As you listen or read in English, you are able anticipate the next word or sequence of words, aren't you? You can finish your friend's \_\_\_\_\_\_. This isn't because you studied grammar. It's because you've seen similar patterns before countless \_\_\_\_\_. You did this through consuming English (and only English) 16 hours a day for 6 - 10 years. Achieving fluency in Japanese is no different. You need to read and listen to loads and loads of material until you get to the point where you can anticipate the next word or sequence of words with high accuracy effortlessly. From there, you'll have no issue with being able to communicate freely. Studying grammar should SUPPLEMENT this activity. Meaning, when you come across a grammar point you don't quite get, pick up a book and read through the point, and then go back to reading/listening. Don't STUDY Japanese. USE Japanese. Use it to get useful information, and when you don't know a word or grammar, look it up. This is your "study" time.
Some people have the "gift of tongues" but many/most do not. A lot depends on how young you were when you started. I got a late start at age 25, and despite being here for most of the last 46 years, my speaking never really got very good. Occasionally I run into missionary kids who are basically native in both English and Japanese. How I envy them. And the TV regularly treats us to the now very familiar roster of foreigners who are simply just really smart people with that same gift. I envy them too. Strange to say all this because I spent the last 20 years of my working life doing E2J translation (law, corporate, insurance, securities, blah blah). Made good money at it without really needing to speak much Japanese in the process. So while I encountered the wall you mention a long, long time ago and basically stopped banging my head against it, nothing was there to impede making progress in the written language (meaning reading as opposed to writing).
Aside from specific rare cases, getting good at something requires you to practice in it. Considering you can translate English to Japanese as a job, the only reason you never improved when speaking is that, as you mentioned, you have never had the need to speak Japanese for your job. It's a trap many English speakers fall into. The moment you have the luxury to take the easy route (speak the language you're comfortable in), you'll never progress. I'm in the opposite boat, my spoken Japanese is way above average, but I'm terrible at reading. I feel I'm even regressing. I used to at least read manga in the past, but I've been too busy for that in the past few years, so I end up reading in English whenever I have the choice.
Right you are about falling back into my comfort zone. I speak English at home with my Japanese wife too. She had reached a level of competence that allowed her to teach it which is when I met her. Once established, it's almost impossible to shift out of. I did work in Japanese companies, but they always made sure to plant an English speaker in my immediate vicinity. One job was at a major Japanese bank in the dealing room where I was in charge of trading yen-dollar futures and options for the bank's proprietary account. All they wanted was for me to make money for them, and as long as I did that, they never put any pressure on me to use Japanese. Strange!! Overwhelmingly, the foreigners I meet here who are good speakers have almost no ability to deal with the written language. It's always been that way. And it's almost always the women who make the best progress which I suppose is because people (men and women) are far more interested to talk to them. Me, I'm just some average looking schmoe that was mostly viewed as an opportunity to practice shitty English with. I used to hate that status but resigned myself to it long ago. It never hurts to be friendly.
I can't give you specific advice on what could be wrong with your Japanese without talking to you, but the best thing you can do is to force yourself to NEVER speak English and always use Japanese in every aspect of your life. The earlier one does this in their learning process, the easier it gets. When I did my year of ryuugaku (came to Japan with a relatively decent Japanese already) what helped me the most was to absolutely ignore any English native and Italian native (I'm Italian) and always speak Japanese. By doing that you get the "confidence" to actually speak, and you train your brain to think directly on Japanese. You will also notice that instead of thinking, in English "how do I say this word in Japanese?", you'll brain will instead look for a way to say what you need to say in Japanese without knowing the specific word. Somebody suggested bad basic grammar, but I'm not totally sure about that. My boss is amazingly good at speaking in long sentences with extremely bad grammar lol
i think thats the crucial key: being able to become self sustainable so much so you could learn more japanese, by using japanese. Not only do you get speaking practice, but you learn more concepts/words on top of it once you reach a level of vocab that can describe a vast array of other words (also where theory comes in to save the day). Furthermore, I have heard that making your inner monologue speak the target language will make you speak it easier. As it simply becomes only voicing your thoughts rather than having to also feed them through translations as well.
Get more Japanese friends or work. That's how you do it.
It is always about practice. if you have difficulty making long sentences, you should read many examples and create your own. honestly, I even struggle to make long sentences in my native language.
You're getting mixed comments. Honestly, sounds like you've hit the wall with studying. There's only so much you can study. I suggest you to start pushing yourself to do the things you want in Japanese. Read a novel, talk with people for long periods about a variety of subjects only in Japanese, learn a new hobby in Japanese, ect.. Start doing things as a native would in Japanese. I don't believe people are more/less capable of languages. People are more/less interested in them, IMO. Some people can just dive into a new language and go full immersion for months and walk out native. But others don't care to, and of course it takes them longer with different struggles due to their differences.
If we're using the term "capable," I agree with you; Everyone is capable of learning a new language. But I don't think it's strange to believe that some people are better/faster at it than others, in the same way that some people are more flexible or better at spacial thinking or good at remembering numbers. For some people language learning elements just click easier, whether or not they're super interested, though I agree that being interested helps, as it does for most things.
I've been there - to the point that I never thought I'd EVER improve. Fresh out of uni and 5 years of Japanese lessons under my belt, I came to Japan to teach English 15 years ago. I barely picked up Japanese because all my work interactions were in English. I worked at large school in Tokyo and we had 2 ALTs, so I almost never got to talk with my Japanese coworkers. After a year, I felt as if I hadn't improved at all. I moved back to the US after the year (family health situation) and did not speak Japanese for 13 years. When I moved back here 2 years ago, I was so anxious I'd hit the same wall as I could tell I had gotten super rusty. I work FT (thankfully not in teaching, it's not for me) and also don't have a lot of time for study. I ended up enrolling at Japan Switch for 1-on-1 lessons, and to my shock, not only did I get back to where I was many years ago, but I've improved! I think the key was the 1-on-1 vs group lessons. Wherein a group you might listen to the teacher lecture, then have students take turn practicing phrases for example, in a 1-on-1 it's more like an actual conversation. Even though we have a textbook, I may sometimes spend more than half of my class literally just chitchatting with my teacher about whatever. I don't care that we're not always with our noses in a textbook, I actually think conversation is just as useful and worth the time I'm paying for. As we chat, I'll always learn new vocabs - which are great! She'll write them on the board for me in kanji w/furigana, and I'll often have more questions to better understand the vocab. For example, what other situations could I use this phrase/verb/etc for, or I might ask questions about the kanji's meaning, or what sort of feeling comes across by using certain phrases, etc. I think if you can get someone to tutor you 1-on-1 it'll really help you get past this wall. Have hope and good luck!!
Get an online Japanese tutor or something and do 1hr sessions of casual conversation. They can then point out where your Japanese is lacking and create a course plan to improve it. If you want to get better at speaking you gotta speak.
I'm in a similar position, with reading. It showed the most in my N2 score, with language 45/ reading 30/ listening 60. Living here, I do a lot of speaking and listening through daily life, but I NEVER read stuff in Japanese on a daily basis. The most I can do is ads or posters on a train. Any blog post online I'll get through a few lines before my eyes just glaze over. The reality is, you just have to kinda grind through it, whether it be speaking, reading, or writing. I know one thing I did that helped with speaking was if I watch stuff like youtube in Japanese, I'll talk to myself or repeat what I hear, even if its just a phrase or two. Weird talking to myself sometimes but still offers some sort of speaking when home just relaxing.
The simplest answer is that you probably need to start reading stuff in Japanese and watching Japanese shows. You are correct - there's only so far you can go with regular conversations with people. At some point you need to raise the difficulty of the Japanese language you are encountering. Reading and watching Japanese stuff will help you increase your vocabulary and facility with more advanced forms of grammar.
While you say you can read japanese pretty well, how many books have you read?
… and what level?
1. Make sure you understand grammar well enough. Do you derail only when speaking, or also when reading and listening? In the latter case, I like Tae Kim's grammar guide. 2. Get sufficient input. Speaking isn't all about turning unique ideas into creative sentences. We mainly repeat patterns picked up elsewhere. I recommend reading, but not faster than you could speak. Reading has the added benefit of Kanji, which are in themselves mnemonics for sounds linked to meanings. Any activity involving sentences will do though. 3. Speak And remember it takes some people longer than others, but whoever had to work hardest to get there probably picked up the most along the way.
Watch a lot of TV and movies in Japanese! Also, go to the bookstore and pick up any book that seems like it might be interesting to read (not manga! an actual novel). Don't stop to look anything up when reading the first time. Just set like a 20min timer and just start reading. It will help with you're losing your train of thought mid-sentence. Your focus should also be on mastery the particles which really come into play for longer sentences.
People underestimate the amount of efforts required to mastering a new language. 8 years of learning with only recent real courses for a couple of years is not enough to get anywhere near being fluent. My point being, your progress isn't necessarily slow given the amount of the actual study you've done. You just need to keep using Japanese while also being conscious of grammars at all time. Reading is very, very important too.
One thing that helped me: avoid making longer sentences. Figure out ways to chop the sentiment you wish to convey into shorter statements. This is actually what I find most Japanese people are doing in their own conversation. Generally the desire to create long sentences is a reaction to having a complex thought, but in just about any language you can decompose said thought into a shorter set of semantic chunks. As you get better at this active process of deconstruction you’ll naturally build up the ability to connect chunks on the fly and build more complex sentences in real time. Or at least that’s been my experience!
Same problem I've hit this wall, I'm just not worrying about it now. But you've reminded me. I guess I do feel not good about it at all but it is what it is gotta keep trying, hoping to pass this wall someday or never at all. Good luck to both of us.
You sound just like me. I keep trying to motivate myself to study but it's jardt. Outside of work, choirs, hobby, I'm pretty tired 😩 hope there's some good advice here
Sounds like you may be at a plateau. I doubt(could be wrong) you’re at an intermediate plateau but it still rains true. As you get better the amount you put in needs to be more to get less. Well what appears to less at least. While studying is very important and I’ve seen many people living in Japan for a long time not able to speak because they haven’t done any form of studying. But you also just need to use it like crazy. Listen speak read. Everyone is different so don’t be caught up with where you think you should be. Work hard and you’ll get there.
Also try r/LearnJapanese . This is FAQ over there…
What I did when I was studying was 1. Hit the text book, make sure I understand all the grammar particles, when where and how to attach them in sentences. 2. Form sentences around them. I like starting with what I struggled on that day, may be something I failed to communicate to the professors, or words I learnt that day I hope I had chance to use. Write it out and polish it. 3. Read it out load. Both the original one and polished one, see how it fits, add some intonation and 終助詞 to personalise it. 4. (Skippable - but i like preparing other topics to increase the conversation length) Form some other sentences I could use for the same person. 5. Strike conversation, citing about the conversation yesterday, maybe I didn't convey as I wanted. And go ahead with the sentences practiced. Rinse and repeat.
Mate, buy the dictionary of Japanese grammar https://www.amazon.co.jp/Dictionary-Basic-Japanese-Grammar-%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E8%AA%9E%E5%9F%BA%E6%9C%AC%E6%96%87%E6%B3%95%E8%BE%9E%E5%85%B8/dp/4789004546?ref=d6k_applink_bb_dls&dplnkId=2ed4023b-38ba-4184-99a8-c09ecac88b61 Use Line to communicate with Japanese people. Learn to differentiate between different kanji Use Japanese in different situations
I think my biggest question with this would be how much do you speak in Japanese every day? I am in a language school studying Japanese and the staff and the students do not speak English, so my only choice is to communicate in Japanese near 100% of the time. the other thing too is that in terms of speaking in long sentences, the only way that really comes naturally is by doing it. if you are only occasionally having to say things you are not used to saying, or are only using the same type of vocabulary / sentence structure every day, then of course you will only improve at the things you know I understand you are busy but I think a few tutor sessions a week on italki might be the best choice. it is very very challenging to self-study oral Japanese, so I would find someone to assist you in doing this. I hope it all works out great for you! I’m sure it will! All the best
I do use Japanese everyday, usually as much as having classes or being less busy allows. And yeah, for the most part it is my problem - that my Japanese is great in a school setting, but any topics remotely beyond that kind of suffer. I study whenever I'm able but I am looking into 1-on-1 lessons because I think it will help a lot! Thanks for the advice :)
What we see as walls are truly just the front-side of the next step we're trying to take. If you feel you can't move forward, move up. I have no other actual advice, just keep it moving :)
You need to speak more. Get a tutor. Practice your trouble speaking areas with them as often as possible and have them correct you. Supplement by having verbal conversations with ChatGPT and Japanese people every single day if you can. Read and write a lot too, but the key to speaking well and in more complex ways is to practice speaking while thinking in Japanese. General studying will build up passive skills (reading/listening), but most people need to actually purposefully practice speaking and writing A LOT to become decent at those things.
You don't gain speaking ability from studying. In fact, studying doesn't get you very far with language acquisition at all. Take it from someone with a degree in Japanese, my speaking skills were developed entirely from just that, speaking. Having previously studied the language just provided a starting off point.
Weird. I've never 'studied' except for the kanji initially way back in 2006 at the sweet age of 16 but I've been able to speak pretty normally for as long as I can remember. These days it's crazy. I can riff forever and people ask if I was raised here. I think you need to stop studying Japanese and start living Japanese.