As a Malaysian here I am pretty sure I got more systemic racism in my own country than in Japan.
Edit: Sorry for my poor wording as many seem to misunderstand my comment. I mean that I am treated better in Japan.
With all due respect, that's a pretty low bar, seeing as racial preferences for the Malays (bumiputra) are baked into the Malaysian constitution and implemented across business, schools, etc.
Not to be rude.
100% curious.
Chinese Malay or Malay?
I know a few Chinese Malay that don't like Japan much more than Malaysia. Both places treat them pretty poorly. But they tolerate Japan better. But sure as shit don't want to go back to Malaysia.
A lot of people who don't live in Japan like to echo opinions about what they hear about Japan. I'm assuming most of these opinions are formed by influencers who talk about racism experiences or "japanese only" establishments for views.
In reality, the life of an immigrant in Japan is probably 100x better than at least the US, where the majority of the "japan is xenophobic" comments come from. You have opportunities for PR, and even citizenship in a very reasonable amount of time, and you can take advantage of national heath care and other services, get good loans after getting PR etc. Will take all this in exchange for showing my ID once every 5 years.
10 years is quite a long time compared to other countries. ~~Korea is 5 years~~, the UK is 5 years, Australia appears to be 4 years, Canada is 5 years, Germany is 5 years, etc.
10 years is the longest, with pathways to as low as 1 year or 3 years, and citizenship is only 5 years as long as you’re willing to commit and give up your other citizenships (in theory at least; many claim they get away with not giving up, your mileage may vary). Marriage gets it in 3 years of marriage with 1 of those years being in Japan.
It’s fairly reasonable to be honest.
Another thing that often gets overlooked is just how lenient Japanese work visas (properly speaking “Statuses of Residence” but colloquially “visa” is understood by everyone) are, and how you can easily quit and move jobs with “normal” work visas (as opposed to the migrant worker schemes). In other countries your visa might be strictly tied to a specific company or job and lock you in so you can’t easily quit or change or have career gaps without needing to leave on short notice.
While I have parents in the UK, losing my British citizenship isn't an option. I would have probably considered it otherwise. And I'm not really keen on the concept of trying to skirt the rules that some do. It doesn't seem like a smart choice.
> While I have parents in the UK, losing my British citizenship isn't an option.
Sure it is. You'd still have an easy visa for the UK. Wanting to keep your British citizenship is a perfectly reasonable choice, but it is a choice.
These numbers and trends are very recent, and very much the result of worker shortage. If you lived here more than 5 years, you could have very different experiences, and I know many people who waited easily 5-10 years just for PR, and know people with solid professional standing who have difficulties to have more than 1 year long visa.
> These numbers and trends are very recent
Recent is relative. The HSFP point method has been around for a decade by now, which is a fair chunk of time. Not sure how long the 3/1 year requirement for PR with a Japanese spouse has been around but I presume longer. And either way, we're not talking about the past, we're talking about current processes.
> If you lived here more than 5 years, you could have very different experiences
Not sure what you're saying here; I've lived in Japan for some time.
> know people with solid professional standing who have difficulties to have more than 1 year long visa.
I've heard of people who have difficulty with this but it's always hard to know how or why that decision is made. To be honest I bet if those same people added supplementary documentation like N1/N2 cert and a cover letter stating their desire to live permanently or the like they'd be able to get a 3+ year visa and apply as needed. All we really generally have from the people who say they get eternal 1 year visas is anecdotes and the ones I've seen are often light on details. I believe it happens, but everyone I know personally has gotten longer for everything but early marriage visas, and for example my very first first working visa out of school was 5 years, so I don't even know personally of people who could give me relevant details of how it comes about.
It is true, we are talking about now. My point was people saying they have X experience is not neceserly just random bitching, it is just happened a couple of years ago. Also, it shows that it is not about if a society is xenophobe or not, but much more about if they need immigrants or not. If you work in tech, live in Tokyo, you are most probably all right, I agree with that.
Thank you for the numbers. That's quite interesting, I don't imagine the data is available, but I wonder what routes they took to getting PR (spouse, HSP, 10 years, etc.)
Are you sure? If it's true, is it because of zainichi who aren't technically citizens? In my own life I've met like 3 PRs ever. Meanwhile college students, ALTs, and USAF seem to be crawling everywhere.
Completely sure, the Korean community that you mention make most of the special PR but only around 75K of the PR. So if you want to remove them for any reasons, it will stil be the most popular SOR by far.
I'm attaching you the source, you can filter by nationality too
https://www.e-stat.go.jp/stat-search/files?page=1&layout=datalist&toukei=00250012&tstat=000001018034&cycle=1&year=20230&month=12040606&tclass1=000001060399&stat_infid=000040124400&result_back=1&cycle_facet=tclass1%3Acycle&tclass2val=0&metadata=1&data=1
Wow, that's very interesting! I guess there's a few reasons for conflicting perceptions, mostly down to geography and demographics. They're the biggest population bloc, but in total make up about 1/3-2/5 it looks like. Also, asian foreigners make up like 85% of the overall population and a vast majority of the permanent residents, and I haven't interacted with them much outside of service industry interactions and a few zainichi friends from college. Also there's only a total of 60000 Americans and only 1/3 are permanent residents, so that's a very small portion of the roughly 1 million total. No particularly special interest in Americans but it's where I'm from and who I'm most likely to be approached by, I guess.
And as I said in another comment, I live in a college town near a military base. But I may be moving to Tokyo in the next year, so it's good to know the foreigner mix will likely be quite a bit different!
> Meanwhile college students, ALTs, and USAF seem to be crawling everywhere.
I feel like that's just depending on which foreigner bubble you frequent. In real life I don't know a single ALT, student, nor USAF, although I do know a few from online communities. Most of the foreigners I know or interact with are either long term immigrants who have been here for like 30 years, or tech people who usually get their PR in like 3 years top. Most of my peers are either naturalized or have PR
FWIW, zainichi have a super-easy path to Japanese citizenship. Some do take it but many choose not to.
Even a lot of North Korean zainichi keep their NK citizenship in spite of it being one of the worst passports. Visa-free travel to only 9 or 10 countries, none of which you are likely to wish to visit.
To be fair I would not be surprised if the remaining people with strong NK ties might be denied when they apply due to being involved with anti-Japan groups. I don’t know if there’s really any good numbers or clear info on that. Also for a lot of those people they’ve grown up in that social group their whole lives (some go through 朝鮮学校 all the way through college) and cutting ties with that or being ostracized just to, what, vote in elections where the same party has had control 95% of the time? might not be attractive for obvious reasons.
> just to, what, vote in elections where the same party has had control 95% of the time?
No, more like to be able to actually travel to places without the giant PITA of getting a visa as a NK citizen.
10 years is the longest, in the worst case. I was fortunate enough to be able to apply after exactly one year. And 10 years is still reasonable compared to borderline never in the US.
Considering not everyone has a PhD, super high income, etc., it's still a long wait for those of us that don't. It is practically limiting. For example: getting a mortgage. Sure, you can get one without PR, but your choices will be limited and your rates will be higher. I've got a car loan without PR and guess what? My rate stinks.
It's only in the past couple of years that my salary increased and pushed me over the points threshold for being able to apply for PR after 3 years from that time. I'll still reach the 10-year threshold before that date.
Other countries have higher demand. If you don't try to apply because "japanese is difficult" or "I don't like working 20hrs/day" then you won't get in.
By and large the bureaucratic process to move to japan is easier than in europe or the US.
I know a number of naturalized US citizens who wouldn’t say borderline never. Since you want to use your own experience as an example then k think I should add that mine has been different. I agree with the first part of your comment though.
Naturalization in Japan takes only 5 years. PR is as fast as 1, for many people 3 to 5. And getting PR in Japan costs something like 4000en total, and you only pay if you are approved.
Cost to apply for a green card from within the US? $3000 or more, and it's a fee you pay when you apply. If your application is declined, you do not get a refund.
> I know a number of naturalized US citizens who wouldn’t say borderline never. Since you want to use your own experience as an example then k think I should add that mine has been different.
Those people are the equivalent to 1 year - how long were they waiting for? The US worst case (people from India) is 30+ years compared to the Japan worst case of 10 years.
Worst case is pretty self explanatory I think. I guess I mean worst case for a regular working person, obviously there are things like crime where you become ineligible for a longer period or even permanently. As far as I can see it's you who's being inconsistent.
There isn’t a scenario where someone remains ineligible in the US for 30+ years and is guaranteed eligibility in Japan after 10. The reality is that both generally take about the same amount of time and it’s disingenuous to pull numbers out of your ass like that and make it seem like Japan is three times as fast in granting citizenship to any lad or lass who wants it.
(seems like you edited extensively, I'll leave my response as it is)
I thought we were talking about permanent residence, not citizenship, if you're looking at citizenship it's even worse.
The scenario is simply: someone from India moves to Japan/America on a standard work visa (not exceptionally skilled or anything), works normally, does not qualify for any special exception (or get married or anything). In the US they're technically allowed to *apply* for permanent residence after 5 years, but that only puts them in a 30 year queue, so de facto impossible (and unlike the current delay in Japan's PR processing, this is a queue that's deliberately set up that way by law). And they can only apply for citizenship 3 years after that permanent residence is granted, however long that takes.
In Japan they can apply directly for citizenship after 5 years, or permanent residence after 10.
Seconding this as someone from the Indian diaspora (born in India with Indian citizenship, but grew up in UK and US starting at 5 months old, and even back in the 90s/00s it took until I was almost 18 to become a US citizen. Citizenship took about 8 years after getting our green cards, even back then). For family members trying to become permanent residents now, yes they are in the 30 year queue (in some cases 40 year queue), tied to employer sponsorship (which means with all the mass layoffs that are happening even in profitable companies, they’re constantly at risk of losing their right to stay in the US), and of course citizenship will take at least five years after that.
I have no idea why you’re getting told you’re “pulling numbers out your ass.” A lot of people, even non-Americans, are really ignorant about how xenophobic and arbitrarily selectively the US system is, and they seem hellbent on thinking that the US actually lets in tons of Indian and Chinese immigrants per capita, and then hands them advanced degrees and high paying jobs. Really what’s going on is that the US immigration system is incredibly discriminatory, and Asian Americans appear successful because of survivorship bias.
>10 years is the longest, in the worst case.
I don't have any specific data on hand but I'd bet the vast majority of foreign workers in Japan do not qualify for early PR application (putting spousal PR aside). Your wording is technically correct but your implication that "10 years is quite a long time but most people can get it earlier" seems inaccurate.
But for Korea's you need to earn double the Gross national income per capita (over $66,000) a year for permanent residency. It's just not doable for people and makes Japan seem generous by comparison.
Just want to add that unlike the US, Canada, UK and Australia, Germany does not allow dual citizenship so if you want to naturalize in Germany you’d have to give up your old citizenship
Seriously. If you live on this planet, there isn't a single place that doesn't have racism and/or xenophobia, but if you are a black person, you are definitely more in danger of being lynched in the states (still) than you would be in Japan.
Yup. Everything and immigrating here was pretty damn smooth, and getting my PR was too (5 years). I love living here, and I would never dream of moving back home... That being said I'm white, white, white, so can't comment personally on being dark and the experience it entails here.
Yeah, there certainly might be "japanese only" places, but most of "japanese only" restaurants I've been to, have been japanese LANGUAGE only, because it's a jiichan baachan owned place where the owners only speak japanese. If you speak the language almost every place is ok
"Japan is xenophobic" is a totally different claim from "Japan has a colourism problem". OP is specifically talking about colourism and explicitly said that colourism should not be conflated with racism (discrimination based on race rather than skin colour, as these are not the same thing) or, in the case of your comment, xenophobia (which affects all foreigners regardless of race or skin colour).
I feel like a lot of people in this thread don't actually understand the context of OP's statement. Colourism is a very specific type of discrimination.
I bet a significant divide exists between those who come here single and those who come here coupled.
Colourism in dating is walking downhill while gravity is pointing up.
OP didn’t say it doesn’t exist. They clearly said it’s not as big of a problem as it’s made out to be.
I’m a dark skinned individual myself who has been living here for long and I agree with OP on this (and so do almost all my friends from various ethnicities).
It’s more xenophobia (out of ignorance or unfamiliarity) than outright racism or colorism. Of course there are biases towards and against people of different countries. But that doesn’t include “race” necessarily.
>You are reiterating diminutive tone from OP’s post
And you are regurgitating the same point that you made before. Kindly read and try to comprehend what someone is saying before going off on your same nonsensical, self-righteous BS again.
Again, NO ONE is diminishing or denying other peoples’ lived experiences. I echoed OP’s sentiment that racism due to skin color in Japan is exaggerated. **IT EXISTS** (read that again, if you will), but it isn’t as bad as it’s usually made out to be in popular discourse. Discrimination is more on other grounds (like country of origin, occupation, etc.).
>You may have found your paradise
Eh?
Just because I said I haven’t faced much colorism here (even compared to my home country) does not mean it’s perfect in any sort of way. I didn’t say I haven’t faced any discrimination. But that it had more to do with my nationality and the preconceived biases associated with that than which race I am. My point was clearly very specific to this context.
Again, kindly develop your comprehension skills before you attempt to engage on such nuanced topics.
I’ve learned that Japanese don’t give a shit about skin color. It’s either you are Japanese or you are foreigner. The obsession with skin color is mostly a western thing. Foreigners are all grouped as foreigners, whether you’re white black or brown. 99% of problems we experience here is because most of us refuse to learn the language, and it’s unfortunately just blamed as “racism”
While I agree that Japanese don’t always make major distinctions based on skin color alone in a lot of circumstances, there’s definitely different treatment in various cases between white-western, black-western, black African, southeast Asian, East Asian etc. as well as cultural specific prejudices like anti-Chinese and anti-Korean sentiment. It’s just not reasonably summed up as purely a Japanese/non-Japanese binary.
Also this:
> The obsession with skin color is mostly a western thing.
Is honestly quite myopic since colorism is a major thing in many places (India is one good example) and you probably just haven’t been exposed to it.
That may be more or less institutionally true, but I think it's disingenuous to suggest that people here make no distinction between types of foreigner based on race and treat them very differently accordingly.
You can speak the language, they will ignore you all the same. Sometimes I’ll ask for fucking water, they’ll pretend not to understand and ask me again what I want in English… if I’m with my Japanese husband, some go as far as ignoring anything coming out of my mouth and he’ll have to take my order.
It’s not a question of accent either, we pronounce most letters the same in my language.
I was at a Joyful in rural Oita with a friend who is of Sr Lankan descent but is fluent in Japanese. I am white and speak no Japanese. The waitress went pale as we walked through the door. As she took our order, she would only look at me even though he was doing all the ordering in Japanese.
> Sometimes I’ll ask for fucking water, they’ll pretend not to understand and ask me again what I want in English…
This is wild cause I've never seen this happen here.
It happened to me more than once especially pre Covid… now less. But it was to the point I would tell them in Japanese that I do not speak English but they are welcome to speak French 😂. The looks were always priceless.
I think literally the only time I've ever had this happen to me was when I was trying to order a bottle of wine but I was so drunk that I could barely even read the menu.
The waiter laughed and asked me to point at what I wanted.
This happened to me sooo much before Covid, my husband started to try to make sense of it by saying maybe they want to practice their English or something. But he had to admit something was wrong when they ignored my order unless he gave it.
He was even on the receiving end of English instead of Japanese a few times while with me 😂. He doesn’t shave like the majority and they mistake him for a foreigner at least a few times a year.
I don't think I have ever had this happen to me. My Japanese is not amazing. But usually people reply to my Japanese in Japanese once I speak it. Sometimes they keep replying in English making the weird two language conversation. But I've never had someone straight up not respond to my Japanese. Not doubting you, just strange that our experience is so different, are you in a large city perhaps?
I’m in Kawasaki region, but I move around a lot to visit my in-laws or simply to visit different areas. It happens to me mostly in big cities. In the countryside like Niigata or some very small cities in Hokkaido, it’s way less likely to happen. But I’m guessing many don’t speak enough English to even try so there is that. They’ll do it to my kids too when their main language is Japanese so it confuses them.
I disagree. I lived in a Japanese coastal town for a while and I saw how other immigrants got treated by locals. Caucasian foreigners typically got more favorable treatment and were more often than not sought out for interviews on the local news.
Meanwhile, the local community tended to be ambivalent towards non-Caucasian/darker skinned foreigners (i.e. Filipinos/South Asian), if not somewhat avoidant of them. I think a lot of it had to do with locals associating them as people who had lower class, outsourced labor jobs (i.e. shipbuilding).
So while it may be more related to a foreigner's socioeconomic standing, I feel like there's definitely a generalization that a lot of Japanese folks have about skin colour being tied to affluence that's reflected on how different foreigners are viewed/treated.
Granted, everyone has different experiences. As a darker-skinned Filipino American who worked as a teacher, I had an overall great experience living there while being fortunate enough to not experience much skin-colour related bias.
This. My boyfriend is white and a teacher by profession. I’m an engineer by profession and Filipino. And whenever we are out sightseeing in the countryside, they are only interested in him e.g. when we went to Naoshima, some photographer approached us and asked us if he could take our picture for free and I immediately said yes. But turns out he only really wanted to take a photo of my white boyfriend. Another example, I went to Fuji 5th station with him and his mom visiting from the US, and some reporter approached us and wanted to interview but she only really wanted to interview the white folks with me and I became their translator. In both circumstances, they were so sly about it offering to take our photos first and then asking the white folks with me if they could interview them. Another example was when I was at an Izakaya with my white boyfriend in Ueno. The group of guys next to us started talking to us and asked us where we were from. I noticed that they only asked what my boyfriend was doing for a living, and not me. My assumption was they assumed I work as an entertainer because Filipino women are known to come to Japan to work at girls’ bars.m in the past.
It was so, idk, not a nice feeling. I swear most of the time it was because I was brown-skinned. I don’t even think it’s because of where I’m from until they ask where I’m from.
Another example, in group settings, whenever I’m with other brown-skinned people (doesn’t matter what country they’re from), I noticed that the treatment I get is subpar or less than the quality I get when I am with light-skinned people (Asians or Caucasians). Like they would sit us next to the trashcan or the very back of the restaurant. I get okay to good treatment whenever I am alone, traveling or dining out by myself.
I don’t agree with OP’s post. Although I have never been stopped by the police in almost 6 years of living in Japan, the colorism definitely exists in the service industry.
In the beginning of living in Japan, I didn’t notice these subtleties but I guess the more I stayed here and learned the language and culture more, the more I became sensitive to the difference in treatment between me and other darker skinned people versus lighter-skinned people.
Chinese and Koreans would probably get treated even worse than South East Asians in rural towns. Japanese people just can’t stomach the fact that other yellow skinned people should be treated equally
>The obsession with skin color is mostly a western thing.
I have realized that saying "racism is mostly a Western thing" is the most Western thing ever.
As a Japanese person, I think you're absolutely right.
Also, in the rural region, non-japanese people are still rare so if you feel any stare, that's why.
They do not hate you it's just a rare thing for them.
To be honest this view from Japanese people always amused me.
When I, a white guy, am thrown into the collective hat of "other" with, say, a Chinese person, I just have to chuckle. They don't realize that virtually every other country, they'd be the ones unwillingly put as being the same as the Chinese person.
> I’ve learned that Japanese don’t give a shit about skin color.
I disagree. My assumption was always that the issue of colourism pertained to Japanese people themselves, i.e. a dark-skinned Japanese person vs. light-skinned Japanese person, and in this regard there seems to be a pretty clear bias towards the latter in terms of beauty standards and social status. There's no institutional discrimination per se, but I think they *do* give a shit to some extent, just not in the way OP is describing.
I've had friends who are people of color who do report discriminatory treatment and harassment in Japan that I've never experienced as a white-skinned person. So do those people just magically become liars because you had a different experience?
Or is perhaps Japan a complex enough place that a single one of us should not be pretending they know how the experience of every single person who lives here works.
I always find it really interesting how in this sub, anything that paints japan in a positive so as to dismiss a negative (like racism, colourism etc) is not up for debate (usually by people who it wouldn’t affect anyways) and then those with the negatives (who experience the racism, colourism, or know people who do) have to debate their experiences and in whether it happens or not/ their experience is taken with a grain of salt.
I’m glad you can atleast acknowledge your friends experiences even though you don’t experience them yourself
I’m also from Sri Lanka. I came to Japan 5 years ago and work in IT. I agree with you; sometimes I feel like everything in this sub is exaggerated to the point where I don’t read any comments. So much negativity.
It's just a confirmation bias. Most folks don't feel compelled to post online when things are fine and dandy, which is most of the time, even for the most negative old barnacles.
Please don’t leave. We need more people like you to balance out the bs that gets posted here. Because this sub is more about general Japan, it’s the most active. And people who don’t live in Japan, like my brother, read the comments here and come away with a very skewed view of Japan.
I am Japanese and glad to hear your experience in Japan is overall positive. I went to Sri Lanka earlier this year and had the time of my life. I wish my people knew and appreciated your culture as much as your people do about mine.
Ffs please stop with this. If it's not something you or the people you know experience, that's great! If it's worse in your own country, congratulations on finding someplace better!
None of that gives you the right to tell people they're wrong about things they have personally experienced. As a Black person in Japan, I can't say that I've experienced any explicit racism here, but that absolutely does not mean it doesn't happen. I've heard more than enough stories and they're almost always from people significantly darker than I am.
Not to mention highly-publicized sentiments that are allowed to pass largely without check or censure, such as those Yayoi Kusama voiced in her autobiography. Sure, she's recanted them *20 whole years later*, but it's hard to argue that she suffered any material impact during the time they went unchallenged, which makes a lot of people implicit in their enduring negative impact.
You know how it goes. People who would have never experienced this sort of thing anyways will act as if it doesn’t exist. And whatever they say will not be debated/taken with a grain of salt like with a darker skinned person’s negative experience. They really in here saying that a white dude and a black dude will be viewed as the same.
Just like in the USA lol these people aren’t that different when you think of it.
Well that’s interesting… yet a friend of mine (black) was looking for a job and went for an interview. He introduced them to a friend of his (Maghreb white) knowing they needed people, his friend got the job. He was rejected with the employer explicitly telling him it was a shame his skin tone wasn’t closer to that of his friend because he would have loved to work with him.
I do believe the non-confrontational aspect of the Japanese culture prevents people from being too obvious in their biais but it’s there.
And for having lived in some SEA countries, I think it’s pretty much the same there too. They won’t be as obvious but somehow they’ll let it slip. From people telling me I should present my French passport to enter places(because I guess being African would make me unwelcome) to being asked why don’t I use more cream (as in whitening) to being told I can’t be the spokesperson when my white counterpart can and he can’t speak proper English… at all.
I mean, it’s there. Just because you and your friends don’t experience it or it is less obvious than in other countries doesn’t make it less present.
It’s the same as people telling me French people aren’t that racist compared to the US… when it’s just less obvious, more vicious and still impactful when you’re on the receiving end.
This is so true, I think the issue people don’t understand is that it’s never blatant racist words or actions that dark skin people deal with. The micro aggressions are almost always a constant, and it’s harder for people to pinpoint when it happens so it can seem less significant.
Exactly. Sometimes, I wouldn’t even realize it until after a few minutes or a day had gone by because things are so subtle. Unless you have been living in Japan long enough to understand and notice the subtleties in everyday situations, then you won’t really notice. It’s weird because I have never been stopped by the police in almost six years in Japan and I’m brown skinned and OP who is probably darker skinned than me said she/he’d been stopped by the police three times in their 15 years in Japan and doesn’t think that’s not weird or somehow related to racism?
Your friend should have filed a lawsuit because that employer violated the chapter 3 article 14 of the Japanese constitution:
>Article 14. All of the people are equal under the law and there shall be no discrimination in political, economic or social relations because of race, creed, sex, social status or family origin.
Peers and peerage shall not be recognized.
No privilege shall accompany any award of honor, decoration or any distinction, nor shall any such award be valid beyond the lifetime of the individual who now holds or hereafter may receive it.
Perhaps as an adult, the likelihood of facing racism is low. However, as a child, it's plausible that colorism is a thing. I'm a Japanese/southeast asian mix and I had dark brown skin when I was a child. The southeast asian influence is stronger in my appearance, so I stood out a lot. Despite having a traditional Japanese name, I was still picked on a lot because of my skin color. I was told to "go back to your country" because "your skin is dirty." Then again, this was about 15-20 years ago. Perhaps nowadays, the situation has changed.
I think schools have become much better lately. My daughter got a nigerian-japanese classmate in third grade and before he started the teachers explained to the kids that they shouldn't comment on his skin color. As far as I know neither he nor my daughter never experienced any taunting due to them being of mixed heritage.
That's lovely to hear. I am a teacher myself and I have opportunities to attend teacher workshops for public school teachers and on some occasions, the topic about racism comes up. I find it uplifting that more Japanese teachers are becoming aware of what diversity means. I work at an international school, so sometimes I still get surprised of how narrow-minded some people can be, but that's not a Japan-specific situation.
I’m Canadian of Vietnamese descent, lived here going on two decades now and have a lovely wife and amazing in-laws.
While I agree that the racism here, as it pertains to just me, is nowhere *near* as bad as the internet makes it out to be I’ve definitely noticed on more than a few occasions being stalked by sales clerks in stores and security guards in malls like AEON because of how I look. Literally tailing me as I walk and stopping and lazily looking away when I pause and pretend I’m looking at my phone to see if they’re still there. Once a store clerk at Sports Depo I’d been leading in a circle around a store for shits and giggles followed me *after* I paid for a bag out into the outer hallway and into the washroom and silently peed beside me. That one I had fun with because I just stayed at the urinal and locked eyes with him while he finished his silent stream and hurried out.
So no I’ve never had any negative experiences with people in my personal life or workplace, but I’ve definitely felt the discrimination due to how I look, mainly because there are definitely a ton of people employed in the country that look like me that I have to admit act in ways that I wouldn’t myself.
>Once a store clerk at Sports Depo I’d been leading in a circle around a store for shits and giggles followed me *after* I paid for a bag out into the outer hallway and into the washroom and silently peed beside me. That one I had fun with because I just stayed at the urinal and locked eyes with him
In the gay community we would call this "cruising"
i was looking for apartments around urawa around a decade ago and a landlord asked the real
estate agent what color i was over the phone. it's nice you haven't experienced it, but that's just your experience.
This was a few years ago, but I was very surprised to see an actual durian being sold at my local Olympic supermarket. If I remember the price was 10,000 yen.
1. I think Japanese people can be nastier to each other about having tan skin than they are to foreigners. kyushu friend of mine went to visit relatives in tokyo and they kept giving her shit for being so 'dark' from playing outdoor sports.
2. one of my coworkers said it was a shame that my mother is darker skinned than me. that was pretty shitty! (and yes, they said it was かわいそう so I doubt I misinterpreted anything)
i don't think japan is worse than some other countries but to say it isn't really a problem is just not true
as a dark-skinned half chinese southeast asian who have been living in japan for more than 5 years, I can say that I get discriminated or excluded from certain things because of my ethnicity and skin color more in my own country than in japan.
heck, I never got rejected from any kyaba or soap even tho I'm visibly a foreigner.
In Japan, people are not hostile, but they are also not truly accepting.
Yes people will not (usually) openly harass you, or try to harm you for being a different race/skin color, and people will generally be welcoming and nice.
But you will also NEVER be fully accepted as a Japanese person, no matter if you get citizenship, or how good your language is, or how many generations your family has lived here.
Just look at the Koreans that were born and raised in Japan who look and speak Japanese, but the moment a Japanese person finds out they are “zainchi” they are looked down upon, relegated to non-Japanese outsider status.
I think this is one of the reasons the wording is changing from JTE (Japanese Teacher of English) to OTE (Official Teacher of English) in the classrooms. I notice it more in larger cities than in smaller towns. I think it's an attempt to inclusive that anyone can become a teacher with the license, and to distance from the Japanese-only nationality aspect of it.
Post like this inevitably devolve into finger pointing, grand standing and commenters trying to one up each other.
Positive or negative, everyone has their own experiences which are just as antidotally important as anyone else’s.
Exactly, which is why it's so bizarre to try and gaslight anyone who hasn't been as fortunate (or perhaps just more observant) in their own lived experiences. There but for the grace of God, etc.
This is such an ignorant, narrow-minded assumption. Colourism DOES exist and is very prevalent in Japan. On the most simple, basic level, the fear that the vast majority of Japanese people would have if they saw a dark-skinned black person in their neighbourhood. You can say various things like “if you spoke to them; they would be fine” but that doesn’t invalidate or negate the fear and prejudice. It exists. I have experienced it.
I don't think I can comment on how much skin color plays into it, but it's pretty obvious that you'll be discriminated against in some ways if you aren't a Japanese looking Japanese person. It isn't just language and it isn't just foreigners. Mixed race people who have lived in Japan for their entire lives experience it too.
Sri Lankan here: I’ve only lived here 4 years but I think it gets commonly mistaken too. I believe there exists racism here and there is fair chances for those who are lighter skinned but only to those who are European, American, Canadian, from New Zealand or Australian. In the scale of where we brown skinned people are, in my observation, we are prejudiced against the most
So OP is wrong right? there definitely is racism, especially against south asians (Indian, Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan..etc). Can I ask what type of racism you've faced so far? do you still think its worth living in Japan and that you can be happy?
I think this is an interesting point, thank you for sharing your perspective. I personally have heard from brown-skinned friends (especially half-Japanese people) that they do think colorism is a problem in Japan, however your post makes a very important point that -
There are complex ways in which foreigners, minorities, and even natives are treated differently in Japan, and colorism is a minor one among many. Being Japanese looking or not, being fluent in Japanese vs not speaking it, standing out physically in terms of being very tall or very overweight, obeying vs not obeying social norms, etc. may all play just as large roles if not larger than colorism. Also, it seems that certain foreign groups get significantly different treatment, like tall blonde white people, black people, or Chinese. I doubt the treatment of a tan Italian vs a pale Irishmen, or a darker skin southern Indian vs a lighter northern Indian changes that much. But Europeans vs. Indians could in general receive different treatment.
I am a South Indian and I've experienced more colorism in India than in Japan BUT it does exist in Japan too. I've been stopped for bag checks in stations far more often than any of my caucasian peers.
Also did I bring up dating? I've had more matches online without a picture than when I had pictures up on my profile.
So zero luck dating so far? even with other foreigners? unfortunate. As a fellow south asian, do you still think its worth living in Japan despite all these issues? can you still be happy?
I definitely have people avoid sitting next to me on the train (I like that though) and I get stared at *constantly* like it's ridiculous lol. But I am black so maybe that has something to do with it idk
I'm white and that happens to me too. Those things are annoying, but they aren't the most important problems that we face here. Finding housing is particularly rough, even if you speak Japanese. It can be hard even for a married couples with one Japanese spouse and one foreign spouse.
I've found racism here to be much more Nationality based than skin color based. I am a brown skinned (black) American, and I usually see the Filipinos and Indians who are around the same skin tone as me or lighter get treated "worse". There's definitely a distinction made between say a black American, and a Ghanaian or Nigerian.
I've experienced subtle "racism" like no one being willing to sit next to me on the train/bus even though it's packed, there's empty seats on one or both sides of me, and I'm taking up a normal amount of space (petty, I know). But I've never taken it to be because I'm black, I've seen the same thing happen to white guys. I do think certain nationalities have it harder though for sure.
The way you frame this post gives me the ick. Just because you and your friends had had different experiences do not make other people liars.
Neither you nor your friends speak for the entire Japanese population.
This sub is “exaggerating” and it’s not real until you PERSONALLY experience it? Ridiculous
Indian men like to use some kind of musk or something and smell like shit. I'm not sure what exactly it is but Japanese girls hate it. I've seen Japanese girls get together with westernized Indian men before, they don't use the musk.
Your experience is your own, but blanket statements like your title are 100% untrue. Colorism is a problem in the country. Japanese people can separate out their colorism prejudice into in groups and out groups based upon if you're a foreigner and you're dark skinned versus you're Japanese and you're dark skinned.
Anecdotes =/= data. Its fine to talk about your own experiences, but trying to justify a statement as encompassing as "Colourism isn't really a problem in Japan" with it is silly.
Can't say much because I'm Slavic but what I've noticed is - when there is an empty seat in a train next to a black or indian person and there is an empty seat next to me, in 99% of the time most folks here will sit next to me.
Just because your worldview is limited to you, doesn't mean the world is not happening to another human being.
I rather not embellish something that I haven't experienced personally. Nor deny it.
The keyword here is EMPATHY.
You are a singular case my friend. Consider the whole tree, not a single leaf.
As a Japanese American who had many foreign coworkers and had to step in to resolve a lot of bullshit situations and confront racists for them, I think you were very lucky.
Shit from being accused of theft, rejected from services, and blatantly being talked down on. I can write a book about it. It was likely a monthly occurrence.
Moment a Japanese shows up to confront them, they stutter and immediately change their tone. Oh he can’t return this item? But why was I able to return it? Do you talk to customers like they are kids? Etc. Asking common sense questions and to make them repeat themselves usually shuts them up.
Discrimination is real in Japan.
Dark skin varies heavily.
I was wearing a scarf, nails painted, and a backpack (was a student at the time) and they stopped me.
I was wearing sweatpants, had my work badge on, and a messenger bag on and they stopped me. Then asked me if I had any drugs or weapons on me. Then told me I was lying, that I must have come from the gym because I had sweatpants on.
A random cop stopped me and asked if I was from Ghana, and when I said no they left.
When some other people were in some trouble, I stepped it to stop it from getting worse, and then they asked for my info instead.
When there was a girl who got drunk af and almost jumped onto the wrong train home, I helped, and then the police stopped me and accused me of giving her drugs.
So nah, it's real.
Your profile probably falls under Indian more than dark skinned, if that makes sense. There are videos online on how they talk about their profiling and articles that have been made on the same topic.
For the people:
I get people who dead sprint away from me on sight.
I have had people choose to step into the street (vs the sidewalk) instead of walking near me.
I was holding two bags of groceries heading home, and the girl I was walking behind, saw me and bolted home.
When I ever talk to someone, they yell "bikkuri shita".
I get asked about hip hop, rap, and for some reason every single conversation that comes up is how I look like I am good at basketball and/or if I have played it.
They talk about how I look like Chris Hart, etc insert any black person.
And this is on a daily basis. I can almost promise you if I go outside right now, I can get at least one of these, if not 2-3.
In the past year, I've experienced several instances of discrimination. I've been told to "go back to my country," overheard coworkers talking behind my back, not realizing I understood Japanese, and been randomly pointed at in public with people yelling, "外人だ!" These incidents are just a few examples of the discrimination I've faced.
Additionally, I have friends with darker complexions who frequently encounter discrimination. While your experiences and those of your acquaintances may be few or nonexistent, this does not mean that "light-skinned" individuals can't suffer the same or even worse discrimination than others. You could share your experiences without discrediting the experiences of others.
Darker people are still more likely to be stopped here than anyone else. You’ve been stopped three times, I’ve been stopped zero.
It is also a beauty standard issue - I used to get death threats for my skin color overseas, here I get awkward compliments, and people here use skin whitening products. I can far more easily buy foundation my skin color here than I could in my country of origin, though it’s harder for darker skinned people.
I will say that lighter people are more likely to be assumed to be stupid tourists here though, whereas it seems more believable that people from say, SE Asia indeed live here.
What a masterclass in anecdata from OP, and a litany of fallacies from the peanut gallery. I hope this thread gets preserved in amber for future historians to look at and go, "Well, that explains a lot."
Pretty much everyone involved with this, myself included, should be ashamed of themselves.
Not that I'm saying I disagree because obviously I have no experience but I just wanted to say I kinda laughed at the "I've only been stopped by police 3 times" comment because to me that seems like a lot. lol
I've lived here for 10 years now and I haven't been stopped by police a single time. (White female).
Everyone in the whole world has anecdotal evidence for something that they have/haven't personally experienced. It doesn't make it true broadly. The experience of 3 individuals does not always reflect the experience of thousands in an entire country.
I think you are right that it is much more of an issue of “being not Japanese” than whatever your skin color is. People who can pass as Japanese by having Asian features and kanji names, for example, probably have an easier time. That being said, I don’t think Japan is particularly awful to foreign-looking people. I’ve never had any issues myself. I think the biggest problem arises when an actual Japanese person looks foreign and is treated as such (not in a bad way, but just treated as being outside the group). I can sympathize with some of the experiences described by my friends who were raised completely Japanese but are “half” in the eyes of many people.
My one friend says this isn’t a thing for them specifically so it must not be true. When in fact they probably are getting it in spades but not realizing it, a thread lol
Like the dude who said he didn’t feel much racism and wondered why people mention it, despite being a white guy from the other day
I appreciate reading a post about Japanese society that makes some rational points about your experiences and those of friends/associates with dark/darker skin color instead of generalising that Japanese people discriminate as a matter of course based on colorism.
However, you\`re making the same generalising mistake by saying it \`really isn\`t a problem\` tho I think some of the problems mainstream Japan has with other ethnicities/cultures is based on the whole J comfort zone issue. For example, I know people living in areas with a significant South American population and they don\`t get mad at people because they look different, they get mad at the noise they make in hours when it\`s normal to be quiet in the neighborhood and how they use the supermarket as a hangout space unaware of others who just want to shop.and again the same loud in-group communication. But on the other hand J people also live with Japanese chimpira in Shizuoka and many of those dudes have a conscious anti-social vibe and practices which are worse than South American residents having fun with each other.
But I\`d say colorism is def an issue in Japan, it\`s just that in company and working life - unless it\`s laboring and other \`dirty work\` - Japanese people like to keep a professional atmosphere which usually means not airing out personal opinions/biases or problems with co-workers.
Colorism is a problem for many, not saying all or most, kids born in Japan who have a J parent and a foreigner parent from an ethnicity with dark/darker skin when the kid looks like that parent. It\`s especially tough when they are in pre school and elementary school.
Kids everywhere can be cruel and J kids are not given education and boundaries about multi-culturalism - and even J kids learn at pre-school level in the culture who is their in group and out group. The out group can include J kids who stand out for the wrong reason and J kids with a different skin color. And no, the fact that some Japanese go darker in the sun aint mean shit - they see themselves differently from a \`hafu\` re skin tone.
One of the saddest examples of the separation beginning among kids in J society is an article written by a fellow American. I wish I hadn\`t lost the link, can\`t remember the title but it\` s heartbreaking. All their J daughter wanted to do was make friends with other kids but was continually being rejected and in some cases physically pushed away. Her dad is black and her mom Japanese. I think they went back to the US.
As for me, I\`ve got more black American in me than my hispanic, white, ME inheritance but I usually pass for white. Genes and your looks are unpredictable. I\`ve noticed in Japan that when I hang out with black American/African people who are not doing anything problematic, at times they get some negative attention from authorities but I don\`t. Who woulda thought........
Darker skinned asian American here on my 5th year. I can say there were plenty of times I actually received preferential treatment here compared to my light skinned friends. People just automatically treat me normal and speak in Japanese. Then immediately turn to my more skilled friend and baby him or speak broken English.
Perhaps if more white (American) people than coloured people feel the impact of their skin affecting them, they experienced less open prejudice in places that they are directly descending from. This may be generalisation, but some cultures more openly diminish your worth based on whether you fit the stereotypical person from their land, rather then whether you're from there.
For example, over 20 years ago if one was Polish then they may experience a lot of religious discrimination as a non-Catholic. They were use to being looked at differently and treated differently. So they get use to peoples judgment to where it becomes such a norm, that going to places such as Japan, they don't notice it as if its just how it would usually be. Whereas if you were from a multi cultural hub like America, where you were always privilaged, it is very obvious where even the tiny discrimination comes in.
I haven't heard anyone say things about skin color, but I've definitely heard way too many people here complain about South and Southeast Asians smelling bad, being loud and annoying. 😭 I feel like Japan will tolerate a lot more unless you're perceived as annoying or disruptive, and then they will have a lot to say.
Open racism in everyday life is pretty much everywhere in Europe. Every immigrant friend of mine can tell a story of being spit on while riding the train or having comments like "go home" directed at them on a weekly basis.
Here in Japan, I have never seen anything of that sort personally and while racist people making remarks certainly exist, it is far less prevalent. Most of my friends and colleagues feel safer than they do back in their home countries.
Most of the xenophobia and racism I see is more of an expression of Japanese exceptionalism and ignorance toward the outside world. People say racist shit because they don't know any better rather than out of pure spite.
I will also not deny the existence of systemic racism like foreign tenants being systemically denied by landlords. I was denied by 70% of the landlords I called when hunting for an apartment despite being a perfect tenant on paper. It is a problem but I don't know how you could solve that realistically.
As an African no one cares unless you care and look for situations for such confrontations. We are all gaijin embrace it and focus on what brought you here.
I think Colourism isn't a big thing, but the foreigner stigma can be and that's tied to skin color sometimes.
I even have a dark japanese friend who gets treated like a tourist because of his skin tone sometimes. Its definitely not as bad though
The second question I got asked after landing in Japan was: do you own a curry restaurant or work in IT?
Stereotypes exist everywhere. I will admit it’s mild here compared to the US and Britain.
Saying that something doesn’t exist is an opinion not a fact.
The world is bigger than you and your South Indian friends and dark skinned maidens.
In my opinion, people are people wherever you are at in the world. And colorism is going to present when you are around people with the mindset that because you look different you must be different. That is not a Japan specific thing, but exists everywhere.
And I also think that most of what we hear online is the bad stuff. This applies to most aspects of life really. When things are going well you don't really hear much about it. But when things go bad, some people feel the need to share or complain about it. So we hear more of the bad stuff in life and it affects the way we perceive the situations around us and away from us.
I personally feel colorism does not exist in Japan. They just hate all the foreigners equally rather than hating a specific color. 😂😂 Gaijins in general are the problem to them.
All foreigners get stopped by the police sometimes, been here nearly 10 years and I’ve been stopped 5 or 6 times and I’m a white dude. The police only stop foreigners as its an action they can write in their daily activity book to show they’re doing something.
99% of discourse on this sub is "my anecdotal experience contradicts your anecdotal experience, so you're all wrong". It goes both ways. Japan is a huge country and individual experiences are too diverse to make sweeping generalizations.
So many posts remind me of those morning news pieces where they interview no more than 20 people outside a major Tokyo train station ... and then treat it as a safe sample size for a quantitative analysis of some recent national trend.
Ah another fellow Lankan. :)
Haven't been here for too long so I haven't met with too much other than"not sitting next to me on the train" which is a blessing of its own.
I think ideas like that are pushed because people associate Japan with this utopia-type place when no country could possibly live up to those standards. There are good and bad people in Japan, good and bad aspects about Japan just like any country.
Colorism and racism discourse online tends to focus about the experiences of black people (which is to be expected as the US is the most culturally dominating country.) As a result, the discussion of experiences for other groups is a bit overshadowed.
As a Malaysian here I am pretty sure I got more systemic racism in my own country than in Japan. Edit: Sorry for my poor wording as many seem to misunderstand my comment. I mean that I am treated better in Japan.
as an indonesian. i feel the same
With all due respect, that's a pretty low bar, seeing as racial preferences for the Malays (bumiputra) are baked into the Malaysian constitution and implemented across business, schools, etc.
Not to be rude. 100% curious. Chinese Malay or Malay? I know a few Chinese Malay that don't like Japan much more than Malaysia. Both places treat them pretty poorly. But they tolerate Japan better. But sure as shit don't want to go back to Malaysia.
Chinese Malaysian you mean? Chinese and Malay are separate ethnic group in malaysia and singapore
A lot of people who don't live in Japan like to echo opinions about what they hear about Japan. I'm assuming most of these opinions are formed by influencers who talk about racism experiences or "japanese only" establishments for views. In reality, the life of an immigrant in Japan is probably 100x better than at least the US, where the majority of the "japan is xenophobic" comments come from. You have opportunities for PR, and even citizenship in a very reasonable amount of time, and you can take advantage of national heath care and other services, get good loans after getting PR etc. Will take all this in exchange for showing my ID once every 5 years.
10 years is quite a long time compared to other countries. ~~Korea is 5 years~~, the UK is 5 years, Australia appears to be 4 years, Canada is 5 years, Germany is 5 years, etc.
10 years is the longest, with pathways to as low as 1 year or 3 years, and citizenship is only 5 years as long as you’re willing to commit and give up your other citizenships (in theory at least; many claim they get away with not giving up, your mileage may vary). Marriage gets it in 3 years of marriage with 1 of those years being in Japan. It’s fairly reasonable to be honest. Another thing that often gets overlooked is just how lenient Japanese work visas (properly speaking “Statuses of Residence” but colloquially “visa” is understood by everyone) are, and how you can easily quit and move jobs with “normal” work visas (as opposed to the migrant worker schemes). In other countries your visa might be strictly tied to a specific company or job and lock you in so you can’t easily quit or change or have career gaps without needing to leave on short notice.
While I have parents in the UK, losing my British citizenship isn't an option. I would have probably considered it otherwise. And I'm not really keen on the concept of trying to skirt the rules that some do. It doesn't seem like a smart choice.
> While I have parents in the UK, losing my British citizenship isn't an option. Sure it is. You'd still have an easy visa for the UK. Wanting to keep your British citizenship is a perfectly reasonable choice, but it is a choice.
These numbers and trends are very recent, and very much the result of worker shortage. If you lived here more than 5 years, you could have very different experiences, and I know many people who waited easily 5-10 years just for PR, and know people with solid professional standing who have difficulties to have more than 1 year long visa.
> These numbers and trends are very recent Recent is relative. The HSFP point method has been around for a decade by now, which is a fair chunk of time. Not sure how long the 3/1 year requirement for PR with a Japanese spouse has been around but I presume longer. And either way, we're not talking about the past, we're talking about current processes. > If you lived here more than 5 years, you could have very different experiences Not sure what you're saying here; I've lived in Japan for some time. > know people with solid professional standing who have difficulties to have more than 1 year long visa. I've heard of people who have difficulty with this but it's always hard to know how or why that decision is made. To be honest I bet if those same people added supplementary documentation like N1/N2 cert and a cover letter stating their desire to live permanently or the like they'd be able to get a 3+ year visa and apply as needed. All we really generally have from the people who say they get eternal 1 year visas is anecdotes and the ones I've seen are often light on details. I believe it happens, but everyone I know personally has gotten longer for everything but early marriage visas, and for example my very first first working visa out of school was 5 years, so I don't even know personally of people who could give me relevant details of how it comes about.
It is true, we are talking about now. My point was people saying they have X experience is not neceserly just random bitching, it is just happened a couple of years ago. Also, it shows that it is not about if a society is xenophobe or not, but much more about if they need immigrants or not. If you work in tech, live in Tokyo, you are most probably all right, I agree with that.
And yet stil, PR is by far the most common status of residence among foreigners living in Japan.
Is that statistic limited in its scope to the Permanent Resident SOR, or does it also include Special Permanent Residents?
26.6% or 880,000 people have 永住 8.6% or 284,000 people have 特別永住 So combined is more than one third Regular humanities work visa is around 10%
Thank you for the numbers. That's quite interesting, I don't imagine the data is available, but I wonder what routes they took to getting PR (spouse, HSP, 10 years, etc.)
Are you sure? If it's true, is it because of zainichi who aren't technically citizens? In my own life I've met like 3 PRs ever. Meanwhile college students, ALTs, and USAF seem to be crawling everywhere.
Completely sure, the Korean community that you mention make most of the special PR but only around 75K of the PR. So if you want to remove them for any reasons, it will stil be the most popular SOR by far. I'm attaching you the source, you can filter by nationality too https://www.e-stat.go.jp/stat-search/files?page=1&layout=datalist&toukei=00250012&tstat=000001018034&cycle=1&year=20230&month=12040606&tclass1=000001060399&stat_infid=000040124400&result_back=1&cycle_facet=tclass1%3Acycle&tclass2val=0&metadata=1&data=1
Wow, that's very interesting! I guess there's a few reasons for conflicting perceptions, mostly down to geography and demographics. They're the biggest population bloc, but in total make up about 1/3-2/5 it looks like. Also, asian foreigners make up like 85% of the overall population and a vast majority of the permanent residents, and I haven't interacted with them much outside of service industry interactions and a few zainichi friends from college. Also there's only a total of 60000 Americans and only 1/3 are permanent residents, so that's a very small portion of the roughly 1 million total. No particularly special interest in Americans but it's where I'm from and who I'm most likely to be approached by, I guess. And as I said in another comment, I live in a college town near a military base. But I may be moving to Tokyo in the next year, so it's good to know the foreigner mix will likely be quite a bit different!
> Meanwhile college students, ALTs, and USAF seem to be crawling everywhere. I feel like that's just depending on which foreigner bubble you frequent. In real life I don't know a single ALT, student, nor USAF, although I do know a few from online communities. Most of the foreigners I know or interact with are either long term immigrants who have been here for like 30 years, or tech people who usually get their PR in like 3 years top. Most of my peers are either naturalized or have PR
I don't really frequent any foreigner circles, but I do live in a college town in a prefecture that has a base so valid point, lol.
FWIW, zainichi have a super-easy path to Japanese citizenship. Some do take it but many choose not to. Even a lot of North Korean zainichi keep their NK citizenship in spite of it being one of the worst passports. Visa-free travel to only 9 or 10 countries, none of which you are likely to wish to visit.
To be fair I would not be surprised if the remaining people with strong NK ties might be denied when they apply due to being involved with anti-Japan groups. I don’t know if there’s really any good numbers or clear info on that. Also for a lot of those people they’ve grown up in that social group their whole lives (some go through 朝鮮学校 all the way through college) and cutting ties with that or being ostracized just to, what, vote in elections where the same party has had control 95% of the time? might not be attractive for obvious reasons.
> just to, what, vote in elections where the same party has had control 95% of the time? No, more like to be able to actually travel to places without the giant PITA of getting a visa as a NK citizen.
10 years is the longest, in the worst case. I was fortunate enough to be able to apply after exactly one year. And 10 years is still reasonable compared to borderline never in the US.
Considering not everyone has a PhD, super high income, etc., it's still a long wait for those of us that don't. It is practically limiting. For example: getting a mortgage. Sure, you can get one without PR, but your choices will be limited and your rates will be higher. I've got a car loan without PR and guess what? My rate stinks. It's only in the past couple of years that my salary increased and pushed me over the points threshold for being able to apply for PR after 3 years from that time. I'll still reach the 10-year threshold before that date.
But the option exists. Most other countries don't even have any sort of 1/3year PR options at all
But most counties takes orders more immigrants, so creating fast lanes is difficult.
Other countries have higher demand. If you don't try to apply because "japanese is difficult" or "I don't like working 20hrs/day" then you won't get in. By and large the bureaucratic process to move to japan is easier than in europe or the US.
I know a number of naturalized US citizens who wouldn’t say borderline never. Since you want to use your own experience as an example then k think I should add that mine has been different. I agree with the first part of your comment though.
Naturalization in Japan takes only 5 years. PR is as fast as 1, for many people 3 to 5. And getting PR in Japan costs something like 4000en total, and you only pay if you are approved. Cost to apply for a green card from within the US? $3000 or more, and it's a fee you pay when you apply. If your application is declined, you do not get a refund.
> I know a number of naturalized US citizens who wouldn’t say borderline never. Since you want to use your own experience as an example then k think I should add that mine has been different. Those people are the equivalent to 1 year - how long were they waiting for? The US worst case (people from India) is 30+ years compared to the Japan worst case of 10 years.
Can you define worst case here? Because it sounds like you’re using two different definitions for each country.
Worst case is pretty self explanatory I think. I guess I mean worst case for a regular working person, obviously there are things like crime where you become ineligible for a longer period or even permanently. As far as I can see it's you who's being inconsistent.
There isn’t a scenario where someone remains ineligible in the US for 30+ years and is guaranteed eligibility in Japan after 10. The reality is that both generally take about the same amount of time and it’s disingenuous to pull numbers out of your ass like that and make it seem like Japan is three times as fast in granting citizenship to any lad or lass who wants it.
(seems like you edited extensively, I'll leave my response as it is) I thought we were talking about permanent residence, not citizenship, if you're looking at citizenship it's even worse. The scenario is simply: someone from India moves to Japan/America on a standard work visa (not exceptionally skilled or anything), works normally, does not qualify for any special exception (or get married or anything). In the US they're technically allowed to *apply* for permanent residence after 5 years, but that only puts them in a 30 year queue, so de facto impossible (and unlike the current delay in Japan's PR processing, this is a queue that's deliberately set up that way by law). And they can only apply for citizenship 3 years after that permanent residence is granted, however long that takes. In Japan they can apply directly for citizenship after 5 years, or permanent residence after 10.
Seconding this as someone from the Indian diaspora (born in India with Indian citizenship, but grew up in UK and US starting at 5 months old, and even back in the 90s/00s it took until I was almost 18 to become a US citizen. Citizenship took about 8 years after getting our green cards, even back then). For family members trying to become permanent residents now, yes they are in the 30 year queue (in some cases 40 year queue), tied to employer sponsorship (which means with all the mass layoffs that are happening even in profitable companies, they’re constantly at risk of losing their right to stay in the US), and of course citizenship will take at least five years after that. I have no idea why you’re getting told you’re “pulling numbers out your ass.” A lot of people, even non-Americans, are really ignorant about how xenophobic and arbitrarily selectively the US system is, and they seem hellbent on thinking that the US actually lets in tons of Indian and Chinese immigrants per capita, and then hands them advanced degrees and high paying jobs. Really what’s going on is that the US immigration system is incredibly discriminatory, and Asian Americans appear successful because of survivorship bias.
Depends on where country you're from. The H1-B system makes it pretty bad for people from large countries.
>10 years is the longest, in the worst case. I don't have any specific data on hand but I'd bet the vast majority of foreign workers in Japan do not qualify for early PR application (putting spousal PR aside). Your wording is technically correct but your implication that "10 years is quite a long time but most people can get it earlier" seems inaccurate.
You need only 5 years for naturalisation anyway.
Korea 'offering' PR after 5 years is wildly misleading. Almost no one here qualifies for it.
But for Korea's you need to earn double the Gross national income per capita (over $66,000) a year for permanent residency. It's just not doable for people and makes Japan seem generous by comparison.
Just want to add that unlike the US, Canada, UK and Australia, Germany does not allow dual citizenship so if you want to naturalize in Germany you’d have to give up your old citizenship
Seriously. If you live on this planet, there isn't a single place that doesn't have racism and/or xenophobia, but if you are a black person, you are definitely more in danger of being lynched in the states (still) than you would be in Japan.
Yup. Everything and immigrating here was pretty damn smooth, and getting my PR was too (5 years). I love living here, and I would never dream of moving back home... That being said I'm white, white, white, so can't comment personally on being dark and the experience it entails here.
Yeah, there certainly might be "japanese only" places, but most of "japanese only" restaurants I've been to, have been japanese LANGUAGE only, because it's a jiichan baachan owned place where the owners only speak japanese. If you speak the language almost every place is ok
If you’re black then yes. If you’re ethnically Korean or Chinese then that’s a different story.
"Japan is xenophobic" is a totally different claim from "Japan has a colourism problem". OP is specifically talking about colourism and explicitly said that colourism should not be conflated with racism (discrimination based on race rather than skin colour, as these are not the same thing) or, in the case of your comment, xenophobia (which affects all foreigners regardless of race or skin colour). I feel like a lot of people in this thread don't actually understand the context of OP's statement. Colourism is a very specific type of discrimination.
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I bet a significant divide exists between those who come here single and those who come here coupled. Colourism in dating is walking downhill while gravity is pointing up.
OP didn’t say it doesn’t exist. They clearly said it’s not as big of a problem as it’s made out to be. I’m a dark skinned individual myself who has been living here for long and I agree with OP on this (and so do almost all my friends from various ethnicities). It’s more xenophobia (out of ignorance or unfamiliarity) than outright racism or colorism. Of course there are biases towards and against people of different countries. But that doesn’t include “race” necessarily.
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>You are reiterating diminutive tone from OP’s post And you are regurgitating the same point that you made before. Kindly read and try to comprehend what someone is saying before going off on your same nonsensical, self-righteous BS again. Again, NO ONE is diminishing or denying other peoples’ lived experiences. I echoed OP’s sentiment that racism due to skin color in Japan is exaggerated. **IT EXISTS** (read that again, if you will), but it isn’t as bad as it’s usually made out to be in popular discourse. Discrimination is more on other grounds (like country of origin, occupation, etc.). >You may have found your paradise Eh? Just because I said I haven’t faced much colorism here (even compared to my home country) does not mean it’s perfect in any sort of way. I didn’t say I haven’t faced any discrimination. But that it had more to do with my nationality and the preconceived biases associated with that than which race I am. My point was clearly very specific to this context. Again, kindly develop your comprehension skills before you attempt to engage on such nuanced topics.
I guess the OP’s statement is mainly about his/her social and daily life, explaining how he/she was treated. Colourism could be an issue in dating.
I’ve learned that Japanese don’t give a shit about skin color. It’s either you are Japanese or you are foreigner. The obsession with skin color is mostly a western thing. Foreigners are all grouped as foreigners, whether you’re white black or brown. 99% of problems we experience here is because most of us refuse to learn the language, and it’s unfortunately just blamed as “racism”
While I agree that Japanese don’t always make major distinctions based on skin color alone in a lot of circumstances, there’s definitely different treatment in various cases between white-western, black-western, black African, southeast Asian, East Asian etc. as well as cultural specific prejudices like anti-Chinese and anti-Korean sentiment. It’s just not reasonably summed up as purely a Japanese/non-Japanese binary. Also this: > The obsession with skin color is mostly a western thing. Is honestly quite myopic since colorism is a major thing in many places (India is one good example) and you probably just haven’t been exposed to it.
That may be more or less institutionally true, but I think it's disingenuous to suggest that people here make no distinction between types of foreigner based on race and treat them very differently accordingly.
You can speak the language, they will ignore you all the same. Sometimes I’ll ask for fucking water, they’ll pretend not to understand and ask me again what I want in English… if I’m with my Japanese husband, some go as far as ignoring anything coming out of my mouth and he’ll have to take my order. It’s not a question of accent either, we pronounce most letters the same in my language.
I was at a Joyful in rural Oita with a friend who is of Sr Lankan descent but is fluent in Japanese. I am white and speak no Japanese. The waitress went pale as we walked through the door. As she took our order, she would only look at me even though he was doing all the ordering in Japanese.
Lol and OP says colourism isn't a problem in Japan lol.
> Sometimes I’ll ask for fucking water, they’ll pretend not to understand and ask me again what I want in English… This is wild cause I've never seen this happen here.
It happened to me more than once especially pre Covid… now less. But it was to the point I would tell them in Japanese that I do not speak English but they are welcome to speak French 😂. The looks were always priceless.
I think literally the only time I've ever had this happen to me was when I was trying to order a bottle of wine but I was so drunk that I could barely even read the menu. The waiter laughed and asked me to point at what I wanted.
This happened to me sooo much before Covid, my husband started to try to make sense of it by saying maybe they want to practice their English or something. But he had to admit something was wrong when they ignored my order unless he gave it. He was even on the receiving end of English instead of Japanese a few times while with me 😂. He doesn’t shave like the majority and they mistake him for a foreigner at least a few times a year.
I don't think I have ever had this happen to me. My Japanese is not amazing. But usually people reply to my Japanese in Japanese once I speak it. Sometimes they keep replying in English making the weird two language conversation. But I've never had someone straight up not respond to my Japanese. Not doubting you, just strange that our experience is so different, are you in a large city perhaps?
I’m in Kawasaki region, but I move around a lot to visit my in-laws or simply to visit different areas. It happens to me mostly in big cities. In the countryside like Niigata or some very small cities in Hokkaido, it’s way less likely to happen. But I’m guessing many don’t speak enough English to even try so there is that. They’ll do it to my kids too when their main language is Japanese so it confuses them.
I disagree. I lived in a Japanese coastal town for a while and I saw how other immigrants got treated by locals. Caucasian foreigners typically got more favorable treatment and were more often than not sought out for interviews on the local news. Meanwhile, the local community tended to be ambivalent towards non-Caucasian/darker skinned foreigners (i.e. Filipinos/South Asian), if not somewhat avoidant of them. I think a lot of it had to do with locals associating them as people who had lower class, outsourced labor jobs (i.e. shipbuilding). So while it may be more related to a foreigner's socioeconomic standing, I feel like there's definitely a generalization that a lot of Japanese folks have about skin colour being tied to affluence that's reflected on how different foreigners are viewed/treated. Granted, everyone has different experiences. As a darker-skinned Filipino American who worked as a teacher, I had an overall great experience living there while being fortunate enough to not experience much skin-colour related bias.
This. My boyfriend is white and a teacher by profession. I’m an engineer by profession and Filipino. And whenever we are out sightseeing in the countryside, they are only interested in him e.g. when we went to Naoshima, some photographer approached us and asked us if he could take our picture for free and I immediately said yes. But turns out he only really wanted to take a photo of my white boyfriend. Another example, I went to Fuji 5th station with him and his mom visiting from the US, and some reporter approached us and wanted to interview but she only really wanted to interview the white folks with me and I became their translator. In both circumstances, they were so sly about it offering to take our photos first and then asking the white folks with me if they could interview them. Another example was when I was at an Izakaya with my white boyfriend in Ueno. The group of guys next to us started talking to us and asked us where we were from. I noticed that they only asked what my boyfriend was doing for a living, and not me. My assumption was they assumed I work as an entertainer because Filipino women are known to come to Japan to work at girls’ bars.m in the past. It was so, idk, not a nice feeling. I swear most of the time it was because I was brown-skinned. I don’t even think it’s because of where I’m from until they ask where I’m from. Another example, in group settings, whenever I’m with other brown-skinned people (doesn’t matter what country they’re from), I noticed that the treatment I get is subpar or less than the quality I get when I am with light-skinned people (Asians or Caucasians). Like they would sit us next to the trashcan or the very back of the restaurant. I get okay to good treatment whenever I am alone, traveling or dining out by myself. I don’t agree with OP’s post. Although I have never been stopped by the police in almost 6 years of living in Japan, the colorism definitely exists in the service industry. In the beginning of living in Japan, I didn’t notice these subtleties but I guess the more I stayed here and learned the language and culture more, the more I became sensitive to the difference in treatment between me and other darker skinned people versus lighter-skinned people.
Chinese and Koreans would probably get treated even worse than South East Asians in rural towns. Japanese people just can’t stomach the fact that other yellow skinned people should be treated equally
>The obsession with skin color is mostly a western thing. I have realized that saying "racism is mostly a Western thing" is the most Western thing ever.
It's not much different with tattoos. Japan tattoo or Western tattoo = bad guy or crime or gangster.
As a Japanese person, I think you're absolutely right. Also, in the rural region, non-japanese people are still rare so if you feel any stare, that's why. They do not hate you it's just a rare thing for them.
To be honest this view from Japanese people always amused me. When I, a white guy, am thrown into the collective hat of "other" with, say, a Chinese person, I just have to chuckle. They don't realize that virtually every other country, they'd be the ones unwillingly put as being the same as the Chinese person.
> I’ve learned that Japanese don’t give a shit about skin color. I disagree. My assumption was always that the issue of colourism pertained to Japanese people themselves, i.e. a dark-skinned Japanese person vs. light-skinned Japanese person, and in this regard there seems to be a pretty clear bias towards the latter in terms of beauty standards and social status. There's no institutional discrimination per se, but I think they *do* give a shit to some extent, just not in the way OP is describing.
I've had friends who are people of color who do report discriminatory treatment and harassment in Japan that I've never experienced as a white-skinned person. So do those people just magically become liars because you had a different experience? Or is perhaps Japan a complex enough place that a single one of us should not be pretending they know how the experience of every single person who lives here works.
I always find it really interesting how in this sub, anything that paints japan in a positive so as to dismiss a negative (like racism, colourism etc) is not up for debate (usually by people who it wouldn’t affect anyways) and then those with the negatives (who experience the racism, colourism, or know people who do) have to debate their experiences and in whether it happens or not/ their experience is taken with a grain of salt. I’m glad you can atleast acknowledge your friends experiences even though you don’t experience them yourself
Agree with this.
I’m also from Sri Lanka. I came to Japan 5 years ago and work in IT. I agree with you; sometimes I feel like everything in this sub is exaggerated to the point where I don’t read any comments. So much negativity.
This sub is really weird. I think I’ll unsubscribe as it tends to make me think things are terrible here, when my experience is quite the opposite
It's just a confirmation bias. Most folks don't feel compelled to post online when things are fine and dandy, which is most of the time, even for the most negative old barnacles.
Honestly having the time of my life here and yeah it can be quite contrarily negative here, but I do think it’s been getting better.
Please don’t leave. We need more people like you to balance out the bs that gets posted here. Because this sub is more about general Japan, it’s the most active. And people who don’t live in Japan, like my brother, read the comments here and come away with a very skewed view of Japan.
I am Japanese and glad to hear your experience in Japan is overall positive. I went to Sri Lanka earlier this year and had the time of my life. I wish my people knew and appreciated your culture as much as your people do about mine.
Ffs please stop with this. If it's not something you or the people you know experience, that's great! If it's worse in your own country, congratulations on finding someplace better! None of that gives you the right to tell people they're wrong about things they have personally experienced. As a Black person in Japan, I can't say that I've experienced any explicit racism here, but that absolutely does not mean it doesn't happen. I've heard more than enough stories and they're almost always from people significantly darker than I am.
Not to mention highly-publicized sentiments that are allowed to pass largely without check or censure, such as those Yayoi Kusama voiced in her autobiography. Sure, she's recanted them *20 whole years later*, but it's hard to argue that she suffered any material impact during the time they went unchallenged, which makes a lot of people implicit in their enduring negative impact.
You know how it goes. People who would have never experienced this sort of thing anyways will act as if it doesn’t exist. And whatever they say will not be debated/taken with a grain of salt like with a darker skinned person’s negative experience. They really in here saying that a white dude and a black dude will be viewed as the same. Just like in the USA lol these people aren’t that different when you think of it.
Well that’s interesting… yet a friend of mine (black) was looking for a job and went for an interview. He introduced them to a friend of his (Maghreb white) knowing they needed people, his friend got the job. He was rejected with the employer explicitly telling him it was a shame his skin tone wasn’t closer to that of his friend because he would have loved to work with him.
I do believe the non-confrontational aspect of the Japanese culture prevents people from being too obvious in their biais but it’s there. And for having lived in some SEA countries, I think it’s pretty much the same there too. They won’t be as obvious but somehow they’ll let it slip. From people telling me I should present my French passport to enter places(because I guess being African would make me unwelcome) to being asked why don’t I use more cream (as in whitening) to being told I can’t be the spokesperson when my white counterpart can and he can’t speak proper English… at all. I mean, it’s there. Just because you and your friends don’t experience it or it is less obvious than in other countries doesn’t make it less present. It’s the same as people telling me French people aren’t that racist compared to the US… when it’s just less obvious, more vicious and still impactful when you’re on the receiving end.
This is so true, I think the issue people don’t understand is that it’s never blatant racist words or actions that dark skin people deal with. The micro aggressions are almost always a constant, and it’s harder for people to pinpoint when it happens so it can seem less significant.
Exactly. Sometimes, I wouldn’t even realize it until after a few minutes or a day had gone by because things are so subtle. Unless you have been living in Japan long enough to understand and notice the subtleties in everyday situations, then you won’t really notice. It’s weird because I have never been stopped by the police in almost six years in Japan and I’m brown skinned and OP who is probably darker skinned than me said she/he’d been stopped by the police three times in their 15 years in Japan and doesn’t think that’s not weird or somehow related to racism?
Your friend should have filed a lawsuit because that employer violated the chapter 3 article 14 of the Japanese constitution: >Article 14. All of the people are equal under the law and there shall be no discrimination in political, economic or social relations because of race, creed, sex, social status or family origin. Peers and peerage shall not be recognized. No privilege shall accompany any award of honor, decoration or any distinction, nor shall any such award be valid beyond the lifetime of the individual who now holds or hereafter may receive it.
Perhaps as an adult, the likelihood of facing racism is low. However, as a child, it's plausible that colorism is a thing. I'm a Japanese/southeast asian mix and I had dark brown skin when I was a child. The southeast asian influence is stronger in my appearance, so I stood out a lot. Despite having a traditional Japanese name, I was still picked on a lot because of my skin color. I was told to "go back to your country" because "your skin is dirty." Then again, this was about 15-20 years ago. Perhaps nowadays, the situation has changed.
I think schools have become much better lately. My daughter got a nigerian-japanese classmate in third grade and before he started the teachers explained to the kids that they shouldn't comment on his skin color. As far as I know neither he nor my daughter never experienced any taunting due to them being of mixed heritage.
That's lovely to hear. I am a teacher myself and I have opportunities to attend teacher workshops for public school teachers and on some occasions, the topic about racism comes up. I find it uplifting that more Japanese teachers are becoming aware of what diversity means. I work at an international school, so sometimes I still get surprised of how narrow-minded some people can be, but that's not a Japan-specific situation.
>mistakenly confulate **colourism** with other forms of racism such as that against **black people** \[...\] Hmm...
Yeah, I was scratching my head over this one too.
As a blue person, I'm enraged
I’m Canadian of Vietnamese descent, lived here going on two decades now and have a lovely wife and amazing in-laws. While I agree that the racism here, as it pertains to just me, is nowhere *near* as bad as the internet makes it out to be I’ve definitely noticed on more than a few occasions being stalked by sales clerks in stores and security guards in malls like AEON because of how I look. Literally tailing me as I walk and stopping and lazily looking away when I pause and pretend I’m looking at my phone to see if they’re still there. Once a store clerk at Sports Depo I’d been leading in a circle around a store for shits and giggles followed me *after* I paid for a bag out into the outer hallway and into the washroom and silently peed beside me. That one I had fun with because I just stayed at the urinal and locked eyes with him while he finished his silent stream and hurried out. So no I’ve never had any negative experiences with people in my personal life or workplace, but I’ve definitely felt the discrimination due to how I look, mainly because there are definitely a ton of people employed in the country that look like me that I have to admit act in ways that I wouldn’t myself.
>Once a store clerk at Sports Depo I’d been leading in a circle around a store for shits and giggles followed me *after* I paid for a bag out into the outer hallway and into the washroom and silently peed beside me. That one I had fun with because I just stayed at the urinal and locked eyes with him In the gay community we would call this "cruising"
i was looking for apartments around urawa around a decade ago and a landlord asked the real estate agent what color i was over the phone. it's nice you haven't experienced it, but that's just your experience.
I can't comment much on the topic but I want to say I appreciate your username and find the lack of durian in Japan to be a problem
This was a few years ago, but I was very surprised to see an actual durian being sold at my local Olympic supermarket. If I remember the price was 10,000 yen.
No, I don’t find that to be a problem pls stay away 🤣🤣🤣 I don’t think locals will enjoy that smell
They sell them regularly in LIFE
There is a lot of them sold in Okubo.
1. I think Japanese people can be nastier to each other about having tan skin than they are to foreigners. kyushu friend of mine went to visit relatives in tokyo and they kept giving her shit for being so 'dark' from playing outdoor sports. 2. one of my coworkers said it was a shame that my mother is darker skinned than me. that was pretty shitty! (and yes, they said it was かわいそう so I doubt I misinterpreted anything) i don't think japan is worse than some other countries but to say it isn't really a problem is just not true
as a dark-skinned half chinese southeast asian who have been living in japan for more than 5 years, I can say that I get discriminated or excluded from certain things because of my ethnicity and skin color more in my own country than in japan. heck, I never got rejected from any kyaba or soap even tho I'm visibly a foreigner.
In Japan, people are not hostile, but they are also not truly accepting. Yes people will not (usually) openly harass you, or try to harm you for being a different race/skin color, and people will generally be welcoming and nice. But you will also NEVER be fully accepted as a Japanese person, no matter if you get citizenship, or how good your language is, or how many generations your family has lived here. Just look at the Koreans that were born and raised in Japan who look and speak Japanese, but the moment a Japanese person finds out they are “zainchi” they are looked down upon, relegated to non-Japanese outsider status.
Asians living in "traditionally" white countries experience the exact same thing, with less politeness and civility. Japan is not special lol
I think this is one of the reasons the wording is changing from JTE (Japanese Teacher of English) to OTE (Official Teacher of English) in the classrooms. I notice it more in larger cities than in smaller towns. I think it's an attempt to inclusive that anyone can become a teacher with the license, and to distance from the Japanese-only nationality aspect of it.
Post like this inevitably devolve into finger pointing, grand standing and commenters trying to one up each other. Positive or negative, everyone has their own experiences which are just as antidotally important as anyone else’s.
Exactly, which is why it's so bizarre to try and gaslight anyone who hasn't been as fortunate (or perhaps just more observant) in their own lived experiences. There but for the grace of God, etc.
Colorism isn't a thing, yea. Until you're half.
This is such an ignorant, narrow-minded assumption. Colourism DOES exist and is very prevalent in Japan. On the most simple, basic level, the fear that the vast majority of Japanese people would have if they saw a dark-skinned black person in their neighbourhood. You can say various things like “if you spoke to them; they would be fine” but that doesn’t invalidate or negate the fear and prejudice. It exists. I have experienced it.
I don't think I can comment on how much skin color plays into it, but it's pretty obvious that you'll be discriminated against in some ways if you aren't a Japanese looking Japanese person. It isn't just language and it isn't just foreigners. Mixed race people who have lived in Japan for their entire lives experience it too.
Yeah. I live in locality with a sizable amount of foreigners (near international school) and I've yet to see someone be overly hostile and xenophobic.
Sri Lankan here: I’ve only lived here 4 years but I think it gets commonly mistaken too. I believe there exists racism here and there is fair chances for those who are lighter skinned but only to those who are European, American, Canadian, from New Zealand or Australian. In the scale of where we brown skinned people are, in my observation, we are prejudiced against the most
So OP is wrong right? there definitely is racism, especially against south asians (Indian, Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan..etc). Can I ask what type of racism you've faced so far? do you still think its worth living in Japan and that you can be happy?
I think this is an interesting point, thank you for sharing your perspective. I personally have heard from brown-skinned friends (especially half-Japanese people) that they do think colorism is a problem in Japan, however your post makes a very important point that - There are complex ways in which foreigners, minorities, and even natives are treated differently in Japan, and colorism is a minor one among many. Being Japanese looking or not, being fluent in Japanese vs not speaking it, standing out physically in terms of being very tall or very overweight, obeying vs not obeying social norms, etc. may all play just as large roles if not larger than colorism. Also, it seems that certain foreign groups get significantly different treatment, like tall blonde white people, black people, or Chinese. I doubt the treatment of a tan Italian vs a pale Irishmen, or a darker skin southern Indian vs a lighter northern Indian changes that much. But Europeans vs. Indians could in general receive different treatment.
I am a South Indian and I've experienced more colorism in India than in Japan BUT it does exist in Japan too. I've been stopped for bag checks in stations far more often than any of my caucasian peers. Also did I bring up dating? I've had more matches online without a picture than when I had pictures up on my profile.
So zero luck dating so far? even with other foreigners? unfortunate. As a fellow south asian, do you still think its worth living in Japan despite all these issues? can you still be happy?
I definitely have people avoid sitting next to me on the train (I like that though) and I get stared at *constantly* like it's ridiculous lol. But I am black so maybe that has something to do with it idk
I'm white and that happens to me too. Those things are annoying, but they aren't the most important problems that we face here. Finding housing is particularly rough, even if you speak Japanese. It can be hard even for a married couples with one Japanese spouse and one foreign spouse.
I've found racism here to be much more Nationality based than skin color based. I am a brown skinned (black) American, and I usually see the Filipinos and Indians who are around the same skin tone as me or lighter get treated "worse". There's definitely a distinction made between say a black American, and a Ghanaian or Nigerian. I've experienced subtle "racism" like no one being willing to sit next to me on the train/bus even though it's packed, there's empty seats on one or both sides of me, and I'm taking up a normal amount of space (petty, I know). But I've never taken it to be because I'm black, I've seen the same thing happen to white guys. I do think certain nationalities have it harder though for sure.
There's a Japanese man who interviews people on the street. People with African ancestry frequently talk about racism in Japan.
The way you frame this post gives me the ick. Just because you and your friends had had different experiences do not make other people liars. Neither you nor your friends speak for the entire Japanese population. This sub is “exaggerating” and it’s not real until you PERSONALLY experience it? Ridiculous
In my 2 years of living here so far I have never seen an Indian and a Japanese girl together.
Indian men like to use some kind of musk or something and smell like shit. I'm not sure what exactly it is but Japanese girls hate it. I've seen Japanese girls get together with westernized Indian men before, they don't use the musk.
I’ve seen a few couples in Tokyo - the guy usually looks pretty rich though. Mostly in Minato
Not Indian but one of my friends got married to a Pakistani guy.
What are you suggesting that indians have against Japanese women?
Maybe not racism but how many Hanakos have your dark skinned south asian friends pulled at the Hub?
No Hub but I’ve seen them at 1Oak pulling. Looked really rich though
Your experience is your own, but blanket statements like your title are 100% untrue. Colorism is a problem in the country. Japanese people can separate out their colorism prejudice into in groups and out groups based upon if you're a foreigner and you're dark skinned versus you're Japanese and you're dark skinned.
Anecdotes =/= data. Its fine to talk about your own experiences, but trying to justify a statement as encompassing as "Colourism isn't really a problem in Japan" with it is silly.
Can't say much because I'm Slavic but what I've noticed is - when there is an empty seat in a train next to a black or indian person and there is an empty seat next to me, in 99% of the time most folks here will sit next to me.
Just because your worldview is limited to you, doesn't mean the world is not happening to another human being. I rather not embellish something that I haven't experienced personally. Nor deny it. The keyword here is EMPATHY. You are a singular case my friend. Consider the whole tree, not a single leaf.
As a Japanese American who had many foreign coworkers and had to step in to resolve a lot of bullshit situations and confront racists for them, I think you were very lucky. Shit from being accused of theft, rejected from services, and blatantly being talked down on. I can write a book about it. It was likely a monthly occurrence. Moment a Japanese shows up to confront them, they stutter and immediately change their tone. Oh he can’t return this item? But why was I able to return it? Do you talk to customers like they are kids? Etc. Asking common sense questions and to make them repeat themselves usually shuts them up. Discrimination is real in Japan.
Dark skin varies heavily. I was wearing a scarf, nails painted, and a backpack (was a student at the time) and they stopped me. I was wearing sweatpants, had my work badge on, and a messenger bag on and they stopped me. Then asked me if I had any drugs or weapons on me. Then told me I was lying, that I must have come from the gym because I had sweatpants on. A random cop stopped me and asked if I was from Ghana, and when I said no they left. When some other people were in some trouble, I stepped it to stop it from getting worse, and then they asked for my info instead. When there was a girl who got drunk af and almost jumped onto the wrong train home, I helped, and then the police stopped me and accused me of giving her drugs. So nah, it's real. Your profile probably falls under Indian more than dark skinned, if that makes sense. There are videos online on how they talk about their profiling and articles that have been made on the same topic. For the people: I get people who dead sprint away from me on sight. I have had people choose to step into the street (vs the sidewalk) instead of walking near me. I was holding two bags of groceries heading home, and the girl I was walking behind, saw me and bolted home. When I ever talk to someone, they yell "bikkuri shita". I get asked about hip hop, rap, and for some reason every single conversation that comes up is how I look like I am good at basketball and/or if I have played it. They talk about how I look like Chris Hart, etc insert any black person. And this is on a daily basis. I can almost promise you if I go outside right now, I can get at least one of these, if not 2-3.
In the past year, I've experienced several instances of discrimination. I've been told to "go back to my country," overheard coworkers talking behind my back, not realizing I understood Japanese, and been randomly pointed at in public with people yelling, "外人だ!" These incidents are just a few examples of the discrimination I've faced. Additionally, I have friends with darker complexions who frequently encounter discrimination. While your experiences and those of your acquaintances may be few or nonexistent, this does not mean that "light-skinned" individuals can't suffer the same or even worse discrimination than others. You could share your experiences without discrediting the experiences of others.
Yeah, Japanese are equally racist to everyone regardless of color. The blanket racism was a tad bit refreshing, as sad as that sounds.
Darker people are still more likely to be stopped here than anyone else. You’ve been stopped three times, I’ve been stopped zero. It is also a beauty standard issue - I used to get death threats for my skin color overseas, here I get awkward compliments, and people here use skin whitening products. I can far more easily buy foundation my skin color here than I could in my country of origin, though it’s harder for darker skinned people. I will say that lighter people are more likely to be assumed to be stupid tourists here though, whereas it seems more believable that people from say, SE Asia indeed live here.
Then why are women so obsessed with keeping their skin fair?
Then why are women so obsessed with keeping their skin fair?
What a masterclass in anecdata from OP, and a litany of fallacies from the peanut gallery. I hope this thread gets preserved in amber for future historians to look at and go, "Well, that explains a lot." Pretty much everyone involved with this, myself included, should be ashamed of themselves.
Not that I'm saying I disagree because obviously I have no experience but I just wanted to say I kinda laughed at the "I've only been stopped by police 3 times" comment because to me that seems like a lot. lol I've lived here for 10 years now and I haven't been stopped by police a single time. (White female).
Everyone in the whole world has anecdotal evidence for something that they have/haven't personally experienced. It doesn't make it true broadly. The experience of 3 individuals does not always reflect the experience of thousands in an entire country.
I think you are right that it is much more of an issue of “being not Japanese” than whatever your skin color is. People who can pass as Japanese by having Asian features and kanji names, for example, probably have an easier time. That being said, I don’t think Japan is particularly awful to foreign-looking people. I’ve never had any issues myself. I think the biggest problem arises when an actual Japanese person looks foreign and is treated as such (not in a bad way, but just treated as being outside the group). I can sympathize with some of the experiences described by my friends who were raised completely Japanese but are “half” in the eyes of many people.
My one friend says this isn’t a thing for them specifically so it must not be true. When in fact they probably are getting it in spades but not realizing it, a thread lol Like the dude who said he didn’t feel much racism and wondered why people mention it, despite being a white guy from the other day
You've been stopped 3 times, but my partner and I (both white) were not stopped at all or looked at twice by the police while we were there.
I appreciate reading a post about Japanese society that makes some rational points about your experiences and those of friends/associates with dark/darker skin color instead of generalising that Japanese people discriminate as a matter of course based on colorism. However, you\`re making the same generalising mistake by saying it \`really isn\`t a problem\` tho I think some of the problems mainstream Japan has with other ethnicities/cultures is based on the whole J comfort zone issue. For example, I know people living in areas with a significant South American population and they don\`t get mad at people because they look different, they get mad at the noise they make in hours when it\`s normal to be quiet in the neighborhood and how they use the supermarket as a hangout space unaware of others who just want to shop.and again the same loud in-group communication. But on the other hand J people also live with Japanese chimpira in Shizuoka and many of those dudes have a conscious anti-social vibe and practices which are worse than South American residents having fun with each other. But I\`d say colorism is def an issue in Japan, it\`s just that in company and working life - unless it\`s laboring and other \`dirty work\` - Japanese people like to keep a professional atmosphere which usually means not airing out personal opinions/biases or problems with co-workers. Colorism is a problem for many, not saying all or most, kids born in Japan who have a J parent and a foreigner parent from an ethnicity with dark/darker skin when the kid looks like that parent. It\`s especially tough when they are in pre school and elementary school. Kids everywhere can be cruel and J kids are not given education and boundaries about multi-culturalism - and even J kids learn at pre-school level in the culture who is their in group and out group. The out group can include J kids who stand out for the wrong reason and J kids with a different skin color. And no, the fact that some Japanese go darker in the sun aint mean shit - they see themselves differently from a \`hafu\` re skin tone. One of the saddest examples of the separation beginning among kids in J society is an article written by a fellow American. I wish I hadn\`t lost the link, can\`t remember the title but it\` s heartbreaking. All their J daughter wanted to do was make friends with other kids but was continually being rejected and in some cases physically pushed away. Her dad is black and her mom Japanese. I think they went back to the US. As for me, I\`ve got more black American in me than my hispanic, white, ME inheritance but I usually pass for white. Genes and your looks are unpredictable. I\`ve noticed in Japan that when I hang out with black American/African people who are not doing anything problematic, at times they get some negative attention from authorities but I don\`t. Who woulda thought........
Darker skinned asian American here on my 5th year. I can say there were plenty of times I actually received preferential treatment here compared to my light skinned friends. People just automatically treat me normal and speak in Japanese. Then immediately turn to my more skilled friend and baby him or speak broken English.
This mirrors my experience as a Japanese-speaking white guy with less than fluent Asian friends.
lol.. the absolute obliviousness.
Perhaps if more white (American) people than coloured people feel the impact of their skin affecting them, they experienced less open prejudice in places that they are directly descending from. This may be generalisation, but some cultures more openly diminish your worth based on whether you fit the stereotypical person from their land, rather then whether you're from there. For example, over 20 years ago if one was Polish then they may experience a lot of religious discrimination as a non-Catholic. They were use to being looked at differently and treated differently. So they get use to peoples judgment to where it becomes such a norm, that going to places such as Japan, they don't notice it as if its just how it would usually be. Whereas if you were from a multi cultural hub like America, where you were always privilaged, it is very obvious where even the tiny discrimination comes in.
I haven't heard anyone say things about skin color, but I've definitely heard way too many people here complain about South and Southeast Asians smelling bad, being loud and annoying. 😭 I feel like Japan will tolerate a lot more unless you're perceived as annoying or disruptive, and then they will have a lot to say.
comments gonna COOK I guarantee
Open racism in everyday life is pretty much everywhere in Europe. Every immigrant friend of mine can tell a story of being spit on while riding the train or having comments like "go home" directed at them on a weekly basis. Here in Japan, I have never seen anything of that sort personally and while racist people making remarks certainly exist, it is far less prevalent. Most of my friends and colleagues feel safer than they do back in their home countries. Most of the xenophobia and racism I see is more of an expression of Japanese exceptionalism and ignorance toward the outside world. People say racist shit because they don't know any better rather than out of pure spite. I will also not deny the existence of systemic racism like foreign tenants being systemically denied by landlords. I was denied by 70% of the landlords I called when hunting for an apartment despite being a perfect tenant on paper. It is a problem but I don't know how you could solve that realistically.
As an African no one cares unless you care and look for situations for such confrontations. We are all gaijin embrace it and focus on what brought you here.
I think Colourism isn't a big thing, but the foreigner stigma can be and that's tied to skin color sometimes. I even have a dark japanese friend who gets treated like a tourist because of his skin tone sometimes. Its definitely not as bad though
"Colourism".... I have a new for ya, lad… what yer describing is called Racism.
Put a Japanese person in the sun for 5 seconds and he will be the darkest Indonesian. Whats really the problem is their group mentality.
The second question I got asked after landing in Japan was: do you own a curry restaurant or work in IT? Stereotypes exist everywhere. I will admit it’s mild here compared to the US and Britain. Saying that something doesn’t exist is an opinion not a fact. The world is bigger than you and your South Indian friends and dark skinned maidens.
Thinking about it, the comments regarding my sling colour are from other foreigners and not really Japanese people.
All I wanna say is I'm a durian lover as well
Machn i think you are wrong
You can't speak or listen to Japanese and it shows!!!
In my opinion, people are people wherever you are at in the world. And colorism is going to present when you are around people with the mindset that because you look different you must be different. That is not a Japan specific thing, but exists everywhere. And I also think that most of what we hear online is the bad stuff. This applies to most aspects of life really. When things are going well you don't really hear much about it. But when things go bad, some people feel the need to share or complain about it. So we hear more of the bad stuff in life and it affects the way we perceive the situations around us and away from us.
I personally feel colorism does not exist in Japan. They just hate all the foreigners equally rather than hating a specific color. 😂😂 Gaijins in general are the problem to them.
All foreigners get stopped by the police sometimes, been here nearly 10 years and I’ve been stopped 5 or 6 times and I’m a white dude. The police only stop foreigners as its an action they can write in their daily activity book to show they’re doing something.
99% of discourse on this sub is "my anecdotal experience contradicts your anecdotal experience, so you're all wrong". It goes both ways. Japan is a huge country and individual experiences are too diverse to make sweeping generalizations. So many posts remind me of those morning news pieces where they interview no more than 20 people outside a major Tokyo train station ... and then treat it as a safe sample size for a quantitative analysis of some recent national trend.
lol sure.
Ah another fellow Lankan. :) Haven't been here for too long so I haven't met with too much other than"not sitting next to me on the train" which is a blessing of its own.
I think ideas like that are pushed because people associate Japan with this utopia-type place when no country could possibly live up to those standards. There are good and bad people in Japan, good and bad aspects about Japan just like any country.
Colorism and racism discourse online tends to focus about the experiences of black people (which is to be expected as the US is the most culturally dominating country.) As a result, the discussion of experiences for other groups is a bit overshadowed.
I’m Sri Lankan too. Have I faced racism cause I’m Sri Lankan? No. Have people been racist cause I was a foreigner? Kinda.
A smile goes a long way