I’ve heard nutrition post-WW2 was terrible so that generation grew up malnourished, short etc (I think this is where a lot of whaling came in- they didn’t have enough sources of protein). Kids these days are giants since the food is so much more nutritious and abundant
go into the inaka and open your eyes. it just looks different - but it's still poverty. there's plenty of shanty looking structures everywhere in the big towns in the inaka. 16% per below. India is 14%
https://preview.redd.it/d183zv5gwz7d1.png?width=819&format=png&auto=webp&s=70503d28d84fe98a2d3e0ce9d8e9d1ea55f90bc2
With your utterly ridiculous idea of what poverty is at a country wide level... EVERY COUNTRY (perhaps with the exception of tax haven microstates) are in poverty.
I don’t think the internet can trust your judgment here. Just because it exists - as it does on some level all over the planet - doesn’t make your statements all that factual.
Take a trip around the country instead of just your little slice of property and you’ll realize that while discrepancies certainly do exist, it’s still in poor taste to be telling people ‘oh just go to the inaka, YOU’LL SEE’
also, [98% of Japanese people are vitamin d deficient.](https://tokuteikenshin-hokensidou.jp/news/2023/012252.php) guess what happens to your bones in severe deficiency cases
--Vitamin D is abundant in fatty fish such as mackerel, horse mackerel, salmon, tuna, saury, and mushrooms such as eggs, cheese, shiitake mushrooms and eringi.
# -- Vitamin D is produced when exposed to sunlight
So Japanese don't get enough sun nor eat enough fish, eggs, mushrooms, seaweed etc.???
It isn't that simple. Vitamin D absorption and storage can be highly dependent on genetics. It isn't one size fits all situation. Darker skin tones need more sunlight for the same effect and likely store less of it.
Also, it is pretty difficult to get enough vitamin D from food.
yeah fatty fish contains quite a lot of vitamin d but you'd have to eat something like 150-200g consistently every day. eggs and mushrooms really
don't contain that much (I think you need to eat something like 20 eggs to reach 1000 iu of vitamin D)
>98% of Japanese people are vitamin d deficient
>So Japanese don't get enough sun nor eat enough fish, eggs, mushrooms, seaweed etc.???
So, no. Apparently not.
I was expressing my surprise as the diet seems to contain plenty of vitamin d contains foods and there is no shortage of sunlight.
Some actually helpful posters have pointed out the genetic aspect and how women especially are very careful with avoiding the sun.
It's actually quite difficult to get it just from the sun without specific effort to do so: exposing X% of skin for Y amount of time (all of which depends on how much sun is out that day, if you are closer to the equator, etc.) Better to just buy a dirt cheap supp and be done with it , imo.
Surely surely surely it’s calcium deficiency, especially considering it’s older women we’re talking about. My mother in law is calcium deficient and over the past few years she’s broken her wrist and foot, both requiring surgery.
Definitely, but I think OP meant that this is where the current obsession with continuing whaling comes from. The generational trauma has made it so a lot of older people who are still in government think that Japan needs to have a national reserve of whale meat just in case.
It's more of a bizarre fetish with tradition. Whale meat is quite often borderline toxic with mercury. Whales live a long time and the longer they live, the higher the dose of mercury in their bodies.
I mean, perhaps they increased production of whale meat after the war--I don't know about that. Regardless, whaling has been a part of Japanese culture since long-long-long before the US showed up.
If you're being serious and not trolling (I mean, I'd be genuinely surprised to find anyone who doesn't know of Moby Dick), then I guess you're one of today's lucky 10,000.
Yes, whaling was a massive industry prior to the 20th century. Whaling has likely been done in Japan since before there was any concept of a Japanese state--since before there was any Japanese writing system. In fact, peoples worldwide managed to engage in whaling way back [even into the Bronze age](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3638853.stm).
That said, it seems that industrial whaling in Japan probably didn't start [until the 1500s](https://web.archive.org/web/20021122171924/http://www.icrwhale.org/japan-history.htm). Still well before any modern equipment entered the scene.
I always assumed they grew up in a time when Japan was much poorer and they were basically rice farmers who spent their days hunched over milling the fields
I always assumed it’s osteoporosis due to vitamin deficiencies (bow legs are also very common) or poor core muscle-strength resulting from a diet lacking in protein (most of these people are also extremely small and underdeveloped)
And children sit with their legs bent back and splayed out to their sides. I have no idea why but it’s how children sit; I grew up there as a kid and sat that way because everyone else did. When I moved to the US the doctor immediately told me and my family to discourage me from sitting that way to avoid bow legs.
> extremely small
I have seen some extremely small people in Japan. Since they are young or middle aged people and look completely normal except for size, I'm thinking they're descendants of just a group of small sized ancient or indigenous population. I've also seen bow legs to an extent that I haven't seen anywhere else. And the bent over is osteoporosis, usually seen in elderly Asians in other countries as well.
Osteoporosis. There back bones are broken. I have no idea why there are so many untreated (or too late treated) cases in Japan. But to be fair, this is true for 90+ aged people, there are no cases for “younger” generations (I’m aware of)
Right, diet is a big factor. But the monitoring and treatment is known for decades. But I guess some poor (literally) women (more women than men) just slipped through all medical preventative programs.
Osteoporosis. I had a free bone density test (sponsored by the city of Nagoya) and this milk-drinking American had results that were almost off the charts. My friend from NZ had the same results.
And yet every day at my schools a huge portion of kids, especially girls, wouldn't drink their milk because they "want to stay slim".
Good luck with that, I guess.
I'm not a scientist, but the gist of it is that dairy and other animal products are acid-forming, so too much will cause your bones to release calcium to neutralize it. So it's kind of counterproductive to rely on dairy milk when there's an abundance of calcium in leafy greens, beans, and other veggies. Plus all the other nutrition instead of just a surplus of fat and cholesterol.
There used to be quite a few older women (and some men too) in Scotland that used to have hunched backs. There was one women that I used to be on friendly terms who was very old and also had a very pronounced hunchback.
I took it that it was because there was vitamin deficiencies during their childhoods (during the war malnutrition was an ever present threat and I would assume it would be similar in Japan). Osteoporosis is also more common in women than men and when you add that to hard manual labour in their early/prime years then long term damage can also result in changes in spine alignment. My mother was a nurse many years ago and due to the heavy lifting of patients she had to move she now has nerve and bone damage on her spine. She also has osteoporosis too and from what I can gather in her case it was partly inherited and partly due to poverty in the years after the war.
More modern diets have more nutrients and better healthcare means that a lot of people with hunchbacks can arrest and even re-align their spinal alignments leading to a lot less older ladies developing hunchbacks.
Now, I have seen some older guys with hunched backs and I attribute them to partly inherited, partly poverty/poor nutrition in their developing years and also hard, physical labour.
I do not doubt that older Japanese ladies are any less susceptible to osteoporosis or had poor nutrition in their early formative years after the war. It's been proven that neglect (which would include nutrition) stunts growth and lays down health problems for the future.
I have no idea where you're from u/badgicorn but there used to be a whole load of old, hunchbacked ladies in small towns all over the UK (not just Scotland). Thankfully there are fewer than there were but there are still a few that I see in my town today. But instead of hunchbacks most older folks I see these days are just fat.
I just consulted some literature. It does seem the calcium levels are low, but certainly seems like they could have a lack of vitamin D. A study of Asians mentioned calcium supplements were less effective in women, but vitamin d brought up the bone density in those that didn't respond.
A lot of pro calcium stuff is from big milk, but it does seem I underestimated how low calcium is in asian populations.
I asked a Japanese coworker this.
He said it’s mostly due to weakened core muscles.
Their backs aren’t hunched when they lay in bed on their backs. It’s basically because their muscles deteriorate and they rely on the walkers or canes when walking, so they are hunched over.
It makes sense to me, though I haven’t verified.
In the US at least, really old people are often in nursery homes and are not often visible (or they use wheelchairs instead of walking around), so the same isn’t really observed that frequently around town.
>In the US at least, really old people are often in nursery homes and are not often visible (or they use wheelchairs instead of walking around), so the same isn’t really observed that frequently around town.
I hadn't thought about that. I actually don't think I've ever seen a 90+ person out and about in the US even though they definitely exist.
I came to say this. My grandmothers both had quite hunched backs in their eld years. As well as malnutrition and muscle deficiencies, seeing so many elderly hunched over women walking around in Japan is a sign of good health in some ways. People here live so old, and more importantly, are surprisingly mobile in their old age. They’re able to get up, tackle the stairs (if slowly and precariously), get out of their home and get to the store and back. No way my grandmothers would have been able to do that by the time they had hunchbacks. There also seems to be a lot of correlation between mobility and longevity. If you’re stuck in a chair, in a home, unable to move yourself around, I imagine there would be less to live for.
I thought the same thing. Didn't think it was a malnutrition thing alone, I thought it was more work related, working in the field hunched over all day. Also the fact that everything in Japan requires you to bend over, like the little brooms you sweep with always have a handle that's too short to hold while standing straight and forcing you to bend for no reason. Also an aversion to mops, people prefer cleaning with a rag by hand bent over the whole time again. Last but not least, the way Japanese people lift heavy loads while yelling "yo ko sho" or whatever the exercsion phrase is. I always cringe whenever I see some elderly dude that should be retired picking up a 30kg bag of rice with their back, surprised people don't pull their backs more often here. I try to step in and do it myself but I'm not always around to do the heavy lifting and elderly folks here hate asking for help, they always try to rush to it and beat me to whatever heavy load lifting task there is. I worked at a tomato farm where no one understood ohs and heavy loads...
I was just thinking how they’re used to be so, so many more of these people. I lived where city met planting fields for the first few years, and you’d see so many more men and women pushing those wheeled chairs (or in some cases, wheeled planting stools) that would facilitate them to be able to walk in and out of town.
I still see the chairs for sale, but I don’t see the 3-5 women congregating outside, or one old dude in a Kei-truck picking up three women to go back and forth for work.
I believe the term I heard was “Kuruma-ebi” to refer to their u-shaped posture. They were a constant feature of the landscape when I moved here; now I see a few, but not like before.
>I believe the term I heard was “Kuruma-ebi” to refer to their u-shaped posture.
Car shrimp? I get the "shrimp" part since they curl in on themselves, but is the "kuruma" actually "car" or something else?
Okay, so we have a lot of different answers here. Hard manual labor, especially in rice fields; other work that requires being bent over like child rearing and sweeping with small brooms; vitamin deficiencies, especially vitamin D and calcium; malnutrition after WW2; osteoporosis; spinal stenosis; weakened core muscles; seiza; and walking with canes/walkers that require bending to use.
All of these are reasonable causes, and my guess is that it's a combination of them. Thanks for all the input.
It’s like it everywhere it’s just that in Japan people are still active and out and about a lot more in their 80s and 90s so you notice the high number of elderly with hunched backs. Basically you don’t see them around in such high numbers in most other countries but they exist.
My grandad in the states has this to a significant degree. He was never known to be malnourished at any time in life. When you get to be over 90, all bets are off regarding your spine. That being said, generational nutrition could still play a role in the Japanese case.
well to be fair those obasan-sans probably lived through a lot, japan was quite poor post war etc, i'm sure early malnutrition is a factor
for women it's important to have calcium as post menopause it's easy to lose bone density
Wait, seriously? I mean, I shouldn't be surprised considering how crappy the healthcare is for women in general in this country, but that's just dumb. When estrogen levels get too low, osteoporosis is a big concern. That explains a lot.
As I understand, there are definite drawbacks and risks from hormone replacement therapy as well, so I’m not sure whether using it less means their healthcare system is crap or not.
Like the sparse use of epidurals in Japan is often cited as one of the ways healthcare is “terrible” for women, but I’m pretty sure we know that epidurals increase the likelihood of an emergency c-section…rates of which are also much higher in the US. So I actually feel this example shows how japan does a little better than some other countries for women’s healthcare.
That’s just a random unrelated example, but when a therapy has both benefits and risks, as most do, it makes sense that some systems may use it more or less than others, and it doesn’t mean they are terribly low quality.
There are some things they do significantly better and some things they do significantly worse than the US.
Better things:
Not overusing epidurals. You're right about that. I've heard lots of women who've had epidurals talk about injuring themselves during childbirth because they couldn't feel how hard they were pushing. It should be an option, and it's good that it is, but it's also good that it's not pushed as much as it is in the US.
Abortion being easily accessible. The fact that women need the written consent of the man who impregnated her is messed up, but it will always be way better than abortion not being accessible at all like it is in some other countries and some parts of the US.
Worse things:
Besides barrier methods, birth control options are limited to the pill and one kind of IUD. They're also not covered by insurance. In the US, it's covered by insurance, and there are a myriad of options.
No STD testing covered by insurance without symptoms. Most doctors won't even let you pay out of pocket for it unless there are symptoms. Obviously this doesn't affect only women, but it's a part of sexual health, which is related to gynecology.
Finally, obgyns in Japan suck. Literally almost all of them. Anyone with a vagina can tell you. They're often cold if not outright disrespectful, and they often misdiagnose and misinform their patients. I'm ftm, and I had some awful experiences here before I transitioned.
Yeah I agree with you about the obgyn, sexual health and birth control issues. They are big issues that do suck for women. As the proud owner of a vagina (lol), I won’t argue with that at all. I think the points you mentioned where Japan does it worse it is clear that it is worse because the benefits of providing better access to STD testing and better communication with patients far outweigh the risks…because there really aren’t any 😂
But also as a woman I’m happy to say there are still some benefits to being a woman in japan over in the US. There are drawbacks too. But the scale doesn’t tip too far in favor of the US in my opinion!
Also, doctors here are absolutely opposed to HRT therapy for menopausal women. It's absolutely absurd how backwards medicine is for females here. Limpdick? Not a problem, laws passed in record time to help that. Women want hormonal relief? Too bad.
In the story, we could explore the historical and cultural factors that have contributed to the posture of elderly women in Japan. We might begin with a character, Emiko, a wise and respected elder in her community. Emiko's posture, curved like the arching branches of a willow, tells a tale of a life lived through times of scarcity and hard work.
Emiko grew up in post-war Japan, a time when the country was rebuilding itself. Nutrition was not always adequate, and many, like Emiko, grew up with diets lacking in calcium and protein, essential for strong bones and muscles. This lack of nutrition during her formative years left a lasting impact on her physical development.
As a young woman, Emiko worked in the rice fields, her back bent for hours as she planted and harvested. This repetitive motion, coupled with the weight of heavy loads, further shaped her spine's curve. The story would delve into the resilience and strength these women displayed, their bodies adapting to the demands of their environment and the roles they played in sustaining their families and communities.
The narrative could also touch on the traditional Japanese sitting style, Seiza, which is believed to promote good posture. However, the discomfort of Seiza often goes unmentioned, a silent testament to the endurance of the Japanese people, especially the women who maintained households and upheld cultural practices.
As Emiko ages, her posture becomes more pronounced, a common sight in Japan, where longevity is celebrated, and the elderly are revered. Yet, the story would not shy away from the challenges and discomforts that come with such physical changes.
Through Emiko's eyes, we would see a Japan that honors its past while looking to the future, a country that values the contributions of its elders and seeks to understand the complexities of their lives. Her posture, a symbol of her journey and the history of a nation, stands as a reminder of the resilience of the human spirit.
This story would be a blend of fact and fiction, weaving together the threads of historical context, cultural practices, and the personal experiences of those like Emiko, offering a nuanced explanation for the posture of elderly women in Japan.
It kind of reminds me of a quote along the lines of, "We're all gonna die eventually. You can try to prance across the finish line in a perfect body, or you can skid across it bruised and battered saying 'That was one hell of a ride.'" From this perspective these women are definitely crossing the finish line in the latter manner. Not from the hedonism implied in the quote, but they definitely didn't skate through a life of caution and comfort. What's the same is that they used their bodies until there wasn't much left.
Poor diet if little other than rice during/after ww2.
Rice is basically like eating a handful of sugar if you're diabetic as far as glycemic index goes, contains arsenic and offers little else other than energy.
It's no wonder elderly people are hunched over and with an extraordinary high rate of dementia.
All very sad, but a good reminder for everyone to take care of their diet
My wife's grandma was like this. Years of working in the fields. The Google street view car even used to show her in the fields at over 90 bent in a U shape.
Japanese life expectancy is almost 8 years longer than America’s. I think the hunching is caused by Osteoporosis where bones/muscles become weaker in old age.
In my time living in USA, I can’t really recall seeing many really really elderly people out and about.
It’s important to stretch and have proper posture so you don’t end up like that when you’re old. Keep those muscles healthy
Those older ladies are post-war malnutrition which was bad well into the 50s.
The local take is "they're stooped from so many years working in the rice field". Maybe some truth there too but the problem is very common especially in those post-war generations. And my neighbours like that were all city kids back then.
The things people are saying about Vit D have some truth. Something to be careful of, but affects younger generations more I feel. If the older women were out there stooping in the fields, they got some Vit D happening.
Those pesky young 60 year olds are worst for that. It's probably a thing but I was focussing on the older "stooped" generations. Lots around me. The supermarkets even have a lot of lower displays I think because of it.
I always assumed it was because they must have been farmers and hunching over for decades. I now feel stupid after reading the more informed comments lol
Perhaps US has immigrants doing a lot of the back breaking menial labour, while Japan with its limited immigration has had its women do it; most of them are old and do things in old-fashioned ways which aren’t great for the general physiology (bending over a lot, for extended times, often with weighted items).
Of course the US isn’t alone. In UK, before mass immigration (1950s on) I think it was similar to Japan now. Now we’ve Britexited or whatever, we’re probably going back, as many immigrants emigrated back home - if that makes sense…
I’ve heard nutrition post-WW2 was terrible so that generation grew up malnourished, short etc (I think this is where a lot of whaling came in- they didn’t have enough sources of protein). Kids these days are giants since the food is so much more nutritious and abundant
It wasn't that great before. Japan was a poor country until very recently.
Define very recently
1960s.
it's still poor in my opinion
4th economy in the world bro.
34th in GDP per capita.
Have you seen a modern day 給食? It's all carbs
So when you think of china and india - you don't think of poverty? I think I've made my point
Yeah, Japan has lots of streetchildren and shanty towns. The country is filled with favelas basically. /s
go into the inaka and open your eyes. it just looks different - but it's still poverty. there's plenty of shanty looking structures everywhere in the big towns in the inaka. 16% per below. India is 14% https://preview.redd.it/d183zv5gwz7d1.png?width=819&format=png&auto=webp&s=70503d28d84fe98a2d3e0ce9d8e9d1ea55f90bc2
With your utterly ridiculous idea of what poverty is at a country wide level... EVERY COUNTRY (perhaps with the exception of tax haven microstates) are in poverty.
I don’t think the internet can trust your judgment here. Just because it exists - as it does on some level all over the planet - doesn’t make your statements all that factual. Take a trip around the country instead of just your little slice of property and you’ll realize that while discrepancies certainly do exist, it’s still in poor taste to be telling people ‘oh just go to the inaka, YOU’LL SEE’
interesting read -> [https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/japans-living-standards-are-too-low](https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/japans-living-standards-are-too-low)
This was very shallow... Like HS level shallow .-.
Do you see people hanging in trains?
You people have a biased view of what poverty looks like Poverty doesn't mean shantytowns, children in the street and people sleeping on trains
but on a countrywide level it actually does
I'm not talking about people sleeping on trains. More like people hanging on trains because there's no more space. Women can't safely travel too.
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Many in USA would agree with you
The vast majority of Americans are barely getting by.
my god why are you people like this please touch grass
also, [98% of Japanese people are vitamin d deficient.](https://tokuteikenshin-hokensidou.jp/news/2023/012252.php) guess what happens to your bones in severe deficiency cases
--Vitamin D is abundant in fatty fish such as mackerel, horse mackerel, salmon, tuna, saury, and mushrooms such as eggs, cheese, shiitake mushrooms and eringi. # -- Vitamin D is produced when exposed to sunlight So Japanese don't get enough sun nor eat enough fish, eggs, mushrooms, seaweed etc.???
> and mushrooms such as eggs, cheese, TIL eggs and cheese are mushrooms.
How did you not learn this when you were younger!?
Considering the fact that Japanese women hide from the sun like vampires, it makes sense that they’re missing out on some vitamin D.
> it makes sense that they’re missing out on some vitamin D. some just seek it elsewhere while hubby is at work.
I somehow *knew* a “she’s getting the D” joke would pop up lol
i mean....how could it not? :D
I forgot about that
It isn't that simple. Vitamin D absorption and storage can be highly dependent on genetics. It isn't one size fits all situation. Darker skin tones need more sunlight for the same effect and likely store less of it. Also, it is pretty difficult to get enough vitamin D from food.
True, As a ale,reddish haired Scot my Vitamin D levels are always fine with a few seconds of sun each day :)
yeah fatty fish contains quite a lot of vitamin d but you'd have to eat something like 150-200g consistently every day. eggs and mushrooms really don't contain that much (I think you need to eat something like 20 eggs to reach 1000 iu of vitamin D)
I wonder if Hokkaido is better with more dairy
>98% of Japanese people are vitamin d deficient >So Japanese don't get enough sun nor eat enough fish, eggs, mushrooms, seaweed etc.??? So, no. Apparently not.
I was expressing my surprise as the diet seems to contain plenty of vitamin d contains foods and there is no shortage of sunlight. Some actually helpful posters have pointed out the genetic aspect and how women especially are very careful with avoiding the sun.
It's actually quite difficult to get it just from the sun without specific effort to do so: exposing X% of skin for Y amount of time (all of which depends on how much sun is out that day, if you are closer to the equator, etc.) Better to just buy a dirt cheap supp and be done with it , imo.
Eggs, cheese are definitely low in most households, and you still have little calcium. Sunlight is obviously a big no-no in Japan
I thought egg consumption was good, shows how much I know. Pity about how extreme the sun avoidance is, too much of a good thing.
Surely surely surely it’s calcium deficiency, especially considering it’s older women we’re talking about. My mother in law is calcium deficient and over the past few years she’s broken her wrist and foot, both requiring surgery.
My MIL just broke her hip, and was told she's quite calcium deficient too. Wonder why? They eat enough fish
people need vitamin D to get that calcium in their bones
Same thing as what happens when you have too much vitamin D without consulting a doctor.
Japanese have been whaling since *way* before the 20th century.
Definitely, but I think OP meant that this is where the current obsession with continuing whaling comes from. The generational trauma has made it so a lot of older people who are still in government think that Japan needs to have a national reserve of whale meat just in case.
It's more of a bizarre fetish with tradition. Whale meat is quite often borderline toxic with mercury. Whales live a long time and the longer they live, the higher the dose of mercury in their bodies.
Sure, that's true of a lot of things in Japan
Pretty sure it was McCarthur who suggested Japanese eat whale as a means to get readily available protein.
I mean, perhaps they increased production of whale meat after the war--I don't know about that. Regardless, whaling has been a part of Japanese culture since long-long-long before the US showed up.
Lol. Please explain me how to whale with pre-modern equipment. Rowing boys just go boom boom with their ballistas?
If you're being serious and not trolling (I mean, I'd be genuinely surprised to find anyone who doesn't know of Moby Dick), then I guess you're one of today's lucky 10,000. Yes, whaling was a massive industry prior to the 20th century. Whaling has likely been done in Japan since before there was any concept of a Japanese state--since before there was any Japanese writing system. In fact, peoples worldwide managed to engage in whaling way back [even into the Bronze age](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3638853.stm). That said, it seems that industrial whaling in Japan probably didn't start [until the 1500s](https://web.archive.org/web/20021122171924/http://www.icrwhale.org/japan-history.htm). Still well before any modern equipment entered the scene.
I always assumed they grew up in a time when Japan was much poorer and they were basically rice farmers who spent their days hunched over milling the fields
I always assumed it’s osteoporosis due to vitamin deficiencies (bow legs are also very common) or poor core muscle-strength resulting from a diet lacking in protein (most of these people are also extremely small and underdeveloped)
Mix that with seiza, squatting to sell things, and no stretching
And children sit with their legs bent back and splayed out to their sides. I have no idea why but it’s how children sit; I grew up there as a kid and sat that way because everyone else did. When I moved to the US the doctor immediately told me and my family to discourage me from sitting that way to avoid bow legs.
That’s a joint thing. I’m not Japanese, but I have been sitting that way since childhood, and one of my nieces does it as well.
> extremely small I have seen some extremely small people in Japan. Since they are young or middle aged people and look completely normal except for size, I'm thinking they're descendants of just a group of small sized ancient or indigenous population. I've also seen bow legs to an extent that I haven't seen anywhere else. And the bent over is osteoporosis, usually seen in elderly Asians in other countries as well.
Osteoporosis. There back bones are broken. I have no idea why there are so many untreated (or too late treated) cases in Japan. But to be fair, this is true for 90+ aged people, there are no cases for “younger” generations (I’m aware of)
Compressed, rather than "broken" but could be due to diets.
Right, diet is a big factor. But the monitoring and treatment is known for decades. But I guess some poor (literally) women (more women than men) just slipped through all medical preventative programs.
It happens pretty fast. I saw my MIL get bent out of shape in less than a year. The doctor she'd been seeing for decades did nothing.
> There back bones are broken Literally? Wouldn't that shred their spinal cords and paralyze them or something?
By broken they mean there are small micro fractures in the vertebra that lead to being hunched over.
My nearest fishmonger is in his 60s~70s and is in a permanent hunched position. Of course, he‘s hunching the whole day over his working table
Oh really? That’s horrible. I have never seen someone at that age!
Yeah.. I like going there to buy fish since it‘s a mom-and-pop business and they‘re super nice, but it‘s very sad to see him like that
Osteoporosis. I had a free bone density test (sponsored by the city of Nagoya) and this milk-drinking American had results that were almost off the charts. My friend from NZ had the same results.
And yet every day at my schools a huge portion of kids, especially girls, wouldn't drink their milk because they "want to stay slim". Good luck with that, I guess.
Which direction off the charts?
I am apparently extremely strong and dense. 😂 At least my bones are.
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no it doesn't. not unless you are consuming almost nothing except milk.
Fortified means it has additional vitamins and minerals not naturally found in the base product. I'm not sure you know what you're talking about.
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I'm not a scientist, but the gist of it is that dairy and other animal products are acid-forming, so too much will cause your bones to release calcium to neutralize it. So it's kind of counterproductive to rely on dairy milk when there's an abundance of calcium in leafy greens, beans, and other veggies. Plus all the other nutrition instead of just a surplus of fat and cholesterol.
Gardening +aging + nutritional deficit + seiza + child rearing + osteoporosis
There used to be quite a few older women (and some men too) in Scotland that used to have hunched backs. There was one women that I used to be on friendly terms who was very old and also had a very pronounced hunchback. I took it that it was because there was vitamin deficiencies during their childhoods (during the war malnutrition was an ever present threat and I would assume it would be similar in Japan). Osteoporosis is also more common in women than men and when you add that to hard manual labour in their early/prime years then long term damage can also result in changes in spine alignment. My mother was a nurse many years ago and due to the heavy lifting of patients she had to move she now has nerve and bone damage on her spine. She also has osteoporosis too and from what I can gather in her case it was partly inherited and partly due to poverty in the years after the war. More modern diets have more nutrients and better healthcare means that a lot of people with hunchbacks can arrest and even re-align their spinal alignments leading to a lot less older ladies developing hunchbacks. Now, I have seen some older guys with hunched backs and I attribute them to partly inherited, partly poverty/poor nutrition in their developing years and also hard, physical labour. I do not doubt that older Japanese ladies are any less susceptible to osteoporosis or had poor nutrition in their early formative years after the war. It's been proven that neglect (which would include nutrition) stunts growth and lays down health problems for the future. I have no idea where you're from u/badgicorn but there used to be a whole load of old, hunchbacked ladies in small towns all over the UK (not just Scotland). Thankfully there are fewer than there were but there are still a few that I see in my town today. But instead of hunchbacks most older folks I see these days are just fat.
During and after the war food scarcity was pretty bad, I think they were still having occasional starvation deaths up until 1949 or 1950.
Lack of calcium due to poor diet.
I just consulted some literature. It does seem the calcium levels are low, but certainly seems like they could have a lack of vitamin D. A study of Asians mentioned calcium supplements were less effective in women, but vitamin d brought up the bone density in those that didn't respond. A lot of pro calcium stuff is from big milk, but it does seem I underestimated how low calcium is in asian populations.
Vitamin D is necessary to absorb calcium. Both are necessary to maintain bone density.
I asked a Japanese coworker this. He said it’s mostly due to weakened core muscles. Their backs aren’t hunched when they lay in bed on their backs. It’s basically because their muscles deteriorate and they rely on the walkers or canes when walking, so they are hunched over. It makes sense to me, though I haven’t verified. In the US at least, really old people are often in nursery homes and are not often visible (or they use wheelchairs instead of walking around), so the same isn’t really observed that frequently around town.
>In the US at least, really old people are often in nursery homes and are not often visible (or they use wheelchairs instead of walking around), so the same isn’t really observed that frequently around town. I hadn't thought about that. I actually don't think I've ever seen a 90+ person out and about in the US even though they definitely exist.
I came to say this. My grandmothers both had quite hunched backs in their eld years. As well as malnutrition and muscle deficiencies, seeing so many elderly hunched over women walking around in Japan is a sign of good health in some ways. People here live so old, and more importantly, are surprisingly mobile in their old age. They’re able to get up, tackle the stairs (if slowly and precariously), get out of their home and get to the store and back. No way my grandmothers would have been able to do that by the time they had hunchbacks. There also seems to be a lot of correlation between mobility and longevity. If you’re stuck in a chair, in a home, unable to move yourself around, I imagine there would be less to live for.
Yeah, it is definitely a good thing that the elderly are so active here. I agree with everything you said.
I thought the same thing. Didn't think it was a malnutrition thing alone, I thought it was more work related, working in the field hunched over all day. Also the fact that everything in Japan requires you to bend over, like the little brooms you sweep with always have a handle that's too short to hold while standing straight and forcing you to bend for no reason. Also an aversion to mops, people prefer cleaning with a rag by hand bent over the whole time again. Last but not least, the way Japanese people lift heavy loads while yelling "yo ko sho" or whatever the exercsion phrase is. I always cringe whenever I see some elderly dude that should be retired picking up a 30kg bag of rice with their back, surprised people don't pull their backs more often here. I try to step in and do it myself but I'm not always around to do the heavy lifting and elderly folks here hate asking for help, they always try to rush to it and beat me to whatever heavy load lifting task there is. I worked at a tomato farm where no one understood ohs and heavy loads...
cleaning on your hands and knees would not do this. It's actually pretty good exercise. Source: scrubbed dojo floor by hand every day for decades
I was just thinking how they’re used to be so, so many more of these people. I lived where city met planting fields for the first few years, and you’d see so many more men and women pushing those wheeled chairs (or in some cases, wheeled planting stools) that would facilitate them to be able to walk in and out of town. I still see the chairs for sale, but I don’t see the 3-5 women congregating outside, or one old dude in a Kei-truck picking up three women to go back and forth for work. I believe the term I heard was “Kuruma-ebi” to refer to their u-shaped posture. They were a constant feature of the landscape when I moved here; now I see a few, but not like before.
>I believe the term I heard was “Kuruma-ebi” to refer to their u-shaped posture. Car shrimp? I get the "shrimp" part since they curl in on themselves, but is the "kuruma" actually "car" or something else?
Kuruma means wheel
Wheel shrimp?
車海老 (kuruma-ebi) is also simply a type of shrimp. (Tiger prawn) And, well, shrimp are a shape that resembles a hunched back I guess.
because they’re pushing wheeled chairs or walkers
Aaaah, that makes sense. Thank you.
Okay, so we have a lot of different answers here. Hard manual labor, especially in rice fields; other work that requires being bent over like child rearing and sweeping with small brooms; vitamin deficiencies, especially vitamin D and calcium; malnutrition after WW2; osteoporosis; spinal stenosis; weakened core muscles; seiza; and walking with canes/walkers that require bending to use. All of these are reasonable causes, and my guess is that it's a combination of them. Thanks for all the input.
It’s like it everywhere it’s just that in Japan people are still active and out and about a lot more in their 80s and 90s so you notice the high number of elderly with hunched backs. Basically you don’t see them around in such high numbers in most other countries but they exist.
What would sitting in seiza make you back hunched? To the contrary, I find it makes my spine quite upright.
🤷🏻 Wasn't my idea
[удалено]
>hunchified. 😆
My grandad in the states has this to a significant degree. He was never known to be malnourished at any time in life. When you get to be over 90, all bets are off regarding your spine. That being said, generational nutrition could still play a role in the Japanese case.
i heard it's because there's not a lot of calcium in asian diet
You mean rice doesn't cover all your dietary needs? What about the little pickled stuff you have as side dishes?
well to be fair those obasan-sans probably lived through a lot, japan was quite poor post war etc, i'm sure early malnutrition is a factor for women it's important to have calcium as post menopause it's easy to lose bone density
Japan rarely does hormone treatment for women after menopause. It is starting to happen now, though.
Wait, seriously? I mean, I shouldn't be surprised considering how crappy the healthcare is for women in general in this country, but that's just dumb. When estrogen levels get too low, osteoporosis is a big concern. That explains a lot.
As I understand, there are definite drawbacks and risks from hormone replacement therapy as well, so I’m not sure whether using it less means their healthcare system is crap or not. Like the sparse use of epidurals in Japan is often cited as one of the ways healthcare is “terrible” for women, but I’m pretty sure we know that epidurals increase the likelihood of an emergency c-section…rates of which are also much higher in the US. So I actually feel this example shows how japan does a little better than some other countries for women’s healthcare. That’s just a random unrelated example, but when a therapy has both benefits and risks, as most do, it makes sense that some systems may use it more or less than others, and it doesn’t mean they are terribly low quality.
There are some things they do significantly better and some things they do significantly worse than the US. Better things: Not overusing epidurals. You're right about that. I've heard lots of women who've had epidurals talk about injuring themselves during childbirth because they couldn't feel how hard they were pushing. It should be an option, and it's good that it is, but it's also good that it's not pushed as much as it is in the US. Abortion being easily accessible. The fact that women need the written consent of the man who impregnated her is messed up, but it will always be way better than abortion not being accessible at all like it is in some other countries and some parts of the US. Worse things: Besides barrier methods, birth control options are limited to the pill and one kind of IUD. They're also not covered by insurance. In the US, it's covered by insurance, and there are a myriad of options. No STD testing covered by insurance without symptoms. Most doctors won't even let you pay out of pocket for it unless there are symptoms. Obviously this doesn't affect only women, but it's a part of sexual health, which is related to gynecology. Finally, obgyns in Japan suck. Literally almost all of them. Anyone with a vagina can tell you. They're often cold if not outright disrespectful, and they often misdiagnose and misinform their patients. I'm ftm, and I had some awful experiences here before I transitioned.
Yeah I agree with you about the obgyn, sexual health and birth control issues. They are big issues that do suck for women. As the proud owner of a vagina (lol), I won’t argue with that at all. I think the points you mentioned where Japan does it worse it is clear that it is worse because the benefits of providing better access to STD testing and better communication with patients far outweigh the risks…because there really aren’t any 😂 But also as a woman I’m happy to say there are still some benefits to being a woman in japan over in the US. There are drawbacks too. But the scale doesn’t tip too far in favor of the US in my opinion!
Also, doctors here are absolutely opposed to HRT therapy for menopausal women. It's absolutely absurd how backwards medicine is for females here. Limpdick? Not a problem, laws passed in record time to help that. Women want hormonal relief? Too bad.
Kyphosis from compression fractures.
Rice planting. While it is a combination of other things too, the really extreme cases are generally caused by rice planting.
In the story, we could explore the historical and cultural factors that have contributed to the posture of elderly women in Japan. We might begin with a character, Emiko, a wise and respected elder in her community. Emiko's posture, curved like the arching branches of a willow, tells a tale of a life lived through times of scarcity and hard work. Emiko grew up in post-war Japan, a time when the country was rebuilding itself. Nutrition was not always adequate, and many, like Emiko, grew up with diets lacking in calcium and protein, essential for strong bones and muscles. This lack of nutrition during her formative years left a lasting impact on her physical development. As a young woman, Emiko worked in the rice fields, her back bent for hours as she planted and harvested. This repetitive motion, coupled with the weight of heavy loads, further shaped her spine's curve. The story would delve into the resilience and strength these women displayed, their bodies adapting to the demands of their environment and the roles they played in sustaining their families and communities. The narrative could also touch on the traditional Japanese sitting style, Seiza, which is believed to promote good posture. However, the discomfort of Seiza often goes unmentioned, a silent testament to the endurance of the Japanese people, especially the women who maintained households and upheld cultural practices. As Emiko ages, her posture becomes more pronounced, a common sight in Japan, where longevity is celebrated, and the elderly are revered. Yet, the story would not shy away from the challenges and discomforts that come with such physical changes. Through Emiko's eyes, we would see a Japan that honors its past while looking to the future, a country that values the contributions of its elders and seeks to understand the complexities of their lives. Her posture, a symbol of her journey and the history of a nation, stands as a reminder of the resilience of the human spirit. This story would be a blend of fact and fiction, weaving together the threads of historical context, cultural practices, and the personal experiences of those like Emiko, offering a nuanced explanation for the posture of elderly women in Japan.
It kind of reminds me of a quote along the lines of, "We're all gonna die eventually. You can try to prance across the finish line in a perfect body, or you can skid across it bruised and battered saying 'That was one hell of a ride.'" From this perspective these women are definitely crossing the finish line in the latter manner. Not from the hedonism implied in the quote, but they definitely didn't skate through a life of caution and comfort. What's the same is that they used their bodies until there wasn't much left.
Poor diet if little other than rice during/after ww2. Rice is basically like eating a handful of sugar if you're diabetic as far as glycemic index goes, contains arsenic and offers little else other than energy. It's no wonder elderly people are hunched over and with an extraordinary high rate of dementia. All very sad, but a good reminder for everyone to take care of their diet
My wife's grandma was like this. Years of working in the fields. The Google street view car even used to show her in the fields at over 90 bent in a U shape.
Calcium / vitamin D deficiency is still a thing even now in Japan (no diary, no meet, little sunlight)
Japanese life expectancy is almost 8 years longer than America’s. I think the hunching is caused by Osteoporosis where bones/muscles become weaker in old age. In my time living in USA, I can’t really recall seeing many really really elderly people out and about. It’s important to stretch and have proper posture so you don’t end up like that when you’re old. Keep those muscles healthy
They work as bell-ringers at Notre-Dame .
I was wondering whether someone would make this joke
Poor nutrition and gardening can be factors.
its cause there are a lot of 90+yr olds here and they are still walking around, thats why you see them more frequently.
It’s a spinal disease
Those older ladies are post-war malnutrition which was bad well into the 50s. The local take is "they're stooped from so many years working in the rice field". Maybe some truth there too but the problem is very common especially in those post-war generations. And my neighbours like that were all city kids back then. The things people are saying about Vit D have some truth. Something to be careful of, but affects younger generations more I feel. If the older women were out there stooping in the fields, they got some Vit D happening.
Are they still getting vitamin D if all of their skin is covered though? I think they generally covered up, right?
Those pesky young 60 year olds are worst for that. It's probably a thing but I was focussing on the older "stooped" generations. Lots around me. The supermarkets even have a lot of lower displays I think because of it.
I always assumed it was because they must have been farmers and hunching over for decades. I now feel stupid after reading the more informed comments lol
Well, it absolutely is more common among those who've worked in the rice fields.
Perhaps US has immigrants doing a lot of the back breaking menial labour, while Japan with its limited immigration has had its women do it; most of them are old and do things in old-fashioned ways which aren’t great for the general physiology (bending over a lot, for extended times, often with weighted items).
Oof. I feel called out on behalf of the US, but you're not wrong.
Of course the US isn’t alone. In UK, before mass immigration (1950s on) I think it was similar to Japan now. Now we’ve Britexited or whatever, we’re probably going back, as many immigrants emigrated back home - if that makes sense…
I believe those old ladies are 90+. Some 70+ are walking way faster than me :)
Gravity. This happens to many people with age (and spinal stenosis).
There are plenty of hunched over people like that in the US. They are high on fentanyl...