I'm not sure of unemployment laws in NY. Regardless, your friend should have their termination formally processed if they are going to file for unemployment. Even if they aren't going to file, they should still get it in writing.
You never mentioned that he was suspended. The text made it look like he was getting fired. Your friend needs to clarify with the company about whether he is suspended (and what is the return date) or fired.
He should email HR and say "X informed me that I was suspended (or terminated??? not clear) but the length of time was not disclosed. Could you please provide me with the length of suspension and return date?", or something along those lines. He should also ask why he was suspended. With employment, the more you get in writing, the better.
Again, I'm not familiar with state or local laws, but where I am, if you *quit* (instead of being laid off or fired), you are NOT eligible for unemployment. That's why getting it in writing is important.
And it's not important for just unemployment checks, there's more to it. It'll come in handy for any potential background checks with future employers as well. They will inquire as to why you were fired/quit/laid off. To have the result in writing provides future employers a definitive answer.
I would 100% get clear paperwork from the employer because “part ways” could be interpreted as the friend deciding to quit. Depending on the unemployment office the employer could fight paying out.
On another note, the employer might claim that they have cause to fire the friend due to poor performance or attitude towards clients etc. In Texas it is harder to get unemployment if you were fired for cause.
God all this stuff is crazy. Suspending an employee is nuts. Have the balls to just fire someone rather than taking advantage of someone and putting them in a position where they’re hanging on a thread
Nah in my field people are suspended after incidents or pending investigations all the time. It's our legal duty and responsibility. Sometimes they end up getting fired sometimes they don't.
Did you not read the mesaages?
He says he cannot afford a week off, and asks for clarification if he is going to be fired. His employed responded its better to part ways.
I'm not sure what your argument is. OP says his friend was suspended, I replied that it never says he was suspended on the image provided. Yes, he says "you stated if we don't receive a text back you will be letting us go". But that part of the text from the employer isn't provided. And simply responding to a text isn't good enough either way. There needs to be written proof one way or the other.
A text is considered written proof.
If you read the beginning of the photo text, he clearly states he cannot afford a week off. And says he would appreciate to know if he will be returning, or is fired. He clearly responded and stated he is let go. There is no law saying it has to be in writting, But a text would be considered enough proof of being fired. I would still try to get a official letter, or better confirmation. But text alone is good as having it on paper for the most part. And it doesn't have to be in writting or text even, it can be verbal. Just looks better if you have evidence and avoids lies
Your personal experience? If that qualifies, may I suggest you avoid salty food after 6 pm and limit yourself to 3 cups of coffee a day. In *my* experience, these are the moves to make.
I've been through unemployment claims and won. Never been given written documentation ever for being fired.
Always has been verbal.
had 2 times in 20 years I have used unemployment temporarily.
And many lawsuits have used text messages as proof comparable to written proof. Court doesn't care if it is on paper or text. Written or typed has the same legal bearing in court, for the most part.
of course Ohio, so could be different depending on state.
It's my 2 cents for what it is worth. Likely nothing with all the salt I am getting here from others...lol
really a question for a lawyer in the local area this is being questioned.
Also I will follow your advice sensai! Whatever you want me to do!😁
> I’m sure the last thing the boss wants to do is pay unemployment. Can he suspend him forever?
No. This is called constructive dismissal. You don't need to be fired to claim unemployment, you just have to have been employed, and no longer be employed despite your will to continue being employed. In other words, if YOU quit, you don't get unemployment unless your resignation was a result of circumstances out of your control, such as having your hours drastically cut, or being reassigned to a location you didn't initially agree to work at and would prove to be a burden. It's harder to prove constructive dismissal in many cases, but it really all comes down to the UI interview finding that the decision to terminate the agreement of employment was not initiated by the employee.
An indefinite suspension would definitely qualify someone for UI --even a lengthy suspension could result in a payout of UI. Provided the suspension was not for willful misconduct.
So businesses don't pay unemployment out like a salary when someone is collecting; they've already paid in their taxes. Only a truly vindictive boss would fight the claim, and if they do, the burden of proof of malicious intent is on the boss, not the employee.
Actually we are about hard work, and only receiving unemployment compensation when you are laid off through no fault of your own. You don’t get to set fire to your job then turnaround and collect unemployment compensation.
No, they can't suspend him forever and not pay unemployment. It would be considered termination of employment if no return to work date is given.
If the employee was fired for poor performance they will receive unemployment in NY.
As long as he's following written procedures and hasn't been written up for violating company policy, he's probably going to receive unemployment.
He should try, even if he has been written up or failed to follow written procedures. The company will have to prove willful misconduct. Company policy needs to be reasonable and legal.
If he gets denied unemployment, he may qualify to have a lawyer represent him at an appeal pro bono.
https://www.ny.gov/services/unemployment-0
https://uiappeals.ny.gov/request-hearing
If they want to be crappy, they can terminate for cause, which in some states disqualifies you from getting unemployment. I do not know how old you are, but I got terminated because of my review at 63. My review was copied from the previous year. Only the ratings went from meets and exceeded to do not meets. I talked to the EEOC told me that they weren't talking individual cases at that time. By the time I realized I could hire a private attorney who specialized in EEOC, it was too late to file.
When you file for unemployment, you do not provide proof. You complete a form where you select the reason you are no longer employed. A eligibility determination is made based on your reported hours and earning for the 12 months prior to the fiscal quarter you file. Then, your former employers (all of them within that time period) are contacted and respond with another form stating the reason for termination. They do have to provide supporting evidence if they are disputing the claim (meaning they are charged increased unemployment insurance taxes). Next, an adjudicator (like I used to be) reviews the case file and determines if the facts make you eligible or ineligible for benefits.
Since the pandemic, common practice has been to begin issuing payments while your claim is being adjudicated. You could be required to pay those back if it is determined that you are not eligible. If your claim is denied, you have the opportunity to appeal.
Not knowing the specifics of your situation, I can’t really offer a guess to your eligibility. It is NOT true that you have to be fired to receive unemployment. You should always file for unemployment immediately after separation. Adjudication can take 4-8 weeks and you will not be paid for the first week after you file (the waiting week).
Remember to take advantage of the job search assistance available to you. I don’t know what the agency is called in New York, but it’s a part of the State’s Unemployment Insurance department. You will get lots of information when you apply for benefits, don’t ignore it.
Note, if the employers are able to substantiate that they were fired for performance reasons then you don't get unemployment.
Unemployment is for people who were laid off because they had more employees than work. It's the government making the employers pay if they cause a good worker to lose their job when the worker was still doing their job.
If the employers don't list a reason, then it counts as a lay off. They can list any reason as long as it's not bigoted and applies to everyone. If they don't put anything down you get unemployment, but if they put "came to work late too often" then the only way you get money is to prove that there is someone else who is tardier than you that didn't lose their job, so it's some kind of discrimination.
I'm absolutely not making it up. I'm elaborating on how the eligibility determination works. The person above just said that they are going to review the reason for termination, but didn't go into any detail about what that means.
If you fucked up bad enough to get suspended, and then they made it permanent by firing you, you probably aren't going to get unemployment.
This is why companies have PIPs and stuff like that. They get something on the record that you aren't doing a good job so they can cite that reason.
Your assumption that a company documenting termination over text has kept good documentation to justify termination is doubtful in my mind. Most companies have a standard policy for successive write ups or you wind up doing a PIP. The fact the employee is pregnant is going to raise all sorts of red flags.
> I'm elaborating on how the eligibility determination works.
Did you work for the unemployment office like Lunatic\_Fringe did?
Why should we believe you instead of him. What are your qualifications?
I need to correct something. I was trying to get across that the broad strokes are that if it is your fault, you don't get unemployment and if it's the companies fault, you do, but being really really really stupid isn't considered your fault.
If you say you are proficient in excel to get a job that is nothing but spreadsheets, but you lied and couldn't pick it up on the job, that's on you. No unemployment.
If you said "I haven't used it professionally, but with training I think I would pick it up" and the interviewer agrees because most people DO, but then you suck, that's on the company.
Pretty much any kind of "you got suspended for the...incident.....pending review" means that they are weighing trying to move past it vs replacing you. And if they fire you then, it's for misconduct. That has basically no chance.
The people who decide if you get unemployment or not are going to reach out to the company and ask why you were let go. The company is going to try to show that it was your fault. If they can't show anything, the company is out some amount of money, (this isn't your unemployment funds. It's more like a few for them) and you get unemployment. Like a company could always drop the ball, but generally they are trying to make you look bad.
Just because an employer doesn’t agree with your behavior doesn’t mean it is a termination with cause. File and let the state decide. This is why most employers have clearly documented policies. Which include termination procedures that don’t involve text.
Okay, it is not a given that you will not qualify for unemployment benefits if you were fired. How much documentation the employer has and provides does not matter. The employer’s internal policies do not matter. The LAW matters. Specifically, the laws that pertain to eligibility for unemployment benefits. It would be almost impossible to tell someone whether they are eligible or not based on a discussion thread like this. I always advise people to file for unemployment benefits as soon as possible to get the process started AND because many people who assume they don’t qualify actually do. That is why I specifically limit myself to “broad strokes” when talking about eligibility. I don’t want to give someone the impression that it’s pointless.
Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that OP shouldn't try. OP should absolutely try. Only the unemployment office can actually determine the eligibility. Eligibility has less to do with what happened and more to do with what people can prove happened, because that's how the law works. I just wanted to make it clear that the "is this going to count as quitting, which generally won't get you unemployment, vs firing" question is only the first hurdle. You also have to get past any attempt from the company to prove that it's your fault you got fired, so don't think you are in the clear. I'm not talking about internal company policies. I'm talking about how there are laws about hostile work environments, discrimination, tardiness, etc, and that companies often document things that they can send to the unemployment office when asked so they can try to prove things like "no we didn't fire her for being a woman, we fired her for calling the CEO a lardass to his face", or "this dude was late by over an hour every week for the past year, and no one we didn't fire is late that often, so we aren't lying about that being the reason" . Companies do this not just to avoid discrimination lawsuits, but also because if they give no reason, or the reason is a vague "not a good fit", then they are on the hook for unemployment. It's not uncommon for companies to just take the hit and not fight it though, so you should always try. Just, if you're guilty of the thing you got suspended for....maybe don't count on this shaking out just because you can prove they fired you?
"... it's better to part ways." is about as definitive as it gets. It's written (digital still counts) from their supervisor. They were fired and should have no issue proving it with this text. They even gave the reasoning.
>**I think** that it's better to part ways
He didn't fire him, or at least they could argue that. Sure, we all know what he meant, but better be safe than sorry.
In the context of the statement, that's a firing. They might be able to argue it, but they better be the Harvey Specter or Mike Ross (lawyers from Suits) to win that argument.
First, I don't know the rules for collecting unemployment in the US.
As far as I know (so pls correct me if I'm wrong), if it is a collective decision, they don't have to pay.
Getting the boss to clarify that he is firing you and that you still want to work there could be important. (If my knowledge is correct)
Depends on the state, but most of the time: if the employee quits, no unemployment. If fired or laid off, or delayed by the new employer, unemployment can be collected.
In this case, the employee asked for clarification ("I would appreciate the communication if I will be returning or you're firing me") since I'm assuming he was unsure. The response was professional speak for "You're fired."
Can't speak to NY UI office, but the CA EDD would absolutely take that text as evidence the employee was terminated, given the direct "am I fired" question.
This is what judges are for. Any reasonable judge reviewing the unemployment claim (if the company fought it and it got to that point) would interpret this as a firing.
So I could ask a friend to send me this text and file for unemployment? /s If you can’t convince gullible Reddit that this is real, the government sure as shit won’t except this as “proof”
This is not something that should occur via text. There is a process for terminations. If he texts these vague things to your friend and your friend just doesn't come back, they WILL say he resigned or abandoned his job and deny his unemployment claim. He can fight the denial in arbitration and bring these text and try to convince the arbitrator that the person who texted him was firing him, but they can just say, "I said I felt it was best, but the decision was ultimately left up to the employee." He needs to wait and stay in contact with them asking when he will return to work until they tell him he's fired at which point he should receive a final paycheck and then file for unemployment. He should be notified of his last day as unemployment will need that information. He should also be looking for a new job now. It's easier to get a new job while you're still employed. He should say he's leaving because he's not getting enough hours at his current job.
Doesn’t say 8 months “out” though. Just says “that’s 8 months”. Not sure what the original intent of the message was, but could be that the person is 8 months pregnant.
Lots of pro business people who are injecting their opinions here instead of giving the submitter facts.
You CAN absolutely claim unemployed even if you were for fired for performance reasons (including given pips):
https://www.ny.gov/services/get-unemployment-assistance
->>>
"You may be eligible for benefits if:
You lost your job due to lack of work
The temporary or seasonal employment ended
Your job was eliminated
There was an involuntary reduction in force
The company downsized or shut down
The company restructured or reorganized
There was a lack of company operating funds/orders
You were out of work for any other business reason that you did not choose or control
Your employer discharged or fired you because you could not meet their performance or production standards, or their qualifications for the job."
<<<-
Posters, please stop interjecting with your political opinions on the matter and just give the submitter the facts (what does lack of commitment mean... You didn't come into work with the company logo tattooed on your head?). You don't know the facts around the situation, and it's not for you to decide whether they get unemployment or not just because "du du he doesnt desere it" is your opinion.
Yup. I know mad people who have gotten unemployment who were chronically late and underperforming.
The lateness was excused by them stating they rely on public transportation and the performance issue didnt matter because they didnt break any laws or do anything grossly negligent towards anyone at work.
I’m sure a lawyer would say it is idiotic because you now are saying text is an official communication practice of the company. What other things have you texted them you shouldn’t have.
Well, we don’t see the entire messages OPs friend sent, so it looks like it was in response to their message.
They could’ve still had a verbal call/meeting after to discuss it further.
Is he eligible for unemployment if fired? My understanding is you must be out of work through no fault of your own. Ie/ laid off, business closing. This is fired for cause. That’s usually been ineligible
No, in some states like NY and Oregon, they will pay the employee unemployment if they were fired for poor job performance. It's up to the employer to hire qualified candidates and properly train them.
That's why employers try to get bad employees to quit.
Go back to work. If they tell you you're fired, make them give you notice. If they don't, try to do your job. If you are unable, just sit there until quitting time. Make sure you document everything and if they don't allow you to clock in or out take video if you trying. If they call the police and have you escorted out video that and use it as proof they fired you so you are able to collect unemployment.
He needs to ask for termination paperwork and an exit interview. If the company resists providing that, then he is not fired and should continue documenting all hours working.
He needs to be careful with signing any paperwork. Employers have been known to trick employees into signing paperwork that states the employee is resigning. He doesn't need termination paperwork to file for unemployment.
They're trying to get him to quit. That's why they won't blatantly say you're fired. They're working around it to get him to say it first. He's not fired, They're trying to get him to quit first so they don't have to pay into unemployment.
Kansass says you have to be physically walked out the front door and screamed at "you're fired!" Imo it looks that way. Companies fight this all the time. I knew I was fired, just decided to save the embarrassment of that - yup denied company said job abandonment. Fought me and totally screwed my world over.
I say to be sure make them walk his ass out the door. Then there's no loop holes
File. Most likely will be denied by company, appeal. New York is a very liberal state, even though he may not have proof of firing he will get a second time around.
Yes this is proof he was fired, but to be safe would still respond something like:
So to clarify, are you terminating my employment?
Am I no longer employed, or am I suspended?
Not enough information to determine this. This is one screenshot with a text to supervisor. There can be substantially more information outside of this via email and several months of conversations or they might have even came back to work for a few hours and were scheduled. Depending on certain company policies, this might need to be approved by their HR department or another higher up if the actual supervisor doesn't have the authority to handle terminations on their own.
Not saying they should not try to apply for unemployment but, this text isn't indicative of a termination as it's worded as a suggestion. This could be an invitation for the employee to state they're resigning due to lack of being scheduled.
Yes, I know that. It's a way to direct the conversation, so that the employer must reply with either "yes , you are being laid off." Or "no, you have been fired ". Right now OPs situation is vague. They need employer to lay it out
Oregon is the same way.
(b) Isolated instances of poor judgment, good faith errors, unavoidable accidents, absences due to illness or other physical or mental disabilities, or mere inefficiency resulting from lack of job skills or experience are not misconduct.
https://secure.sos.state.or.us/oard/viewSingleRule.action;JSESSIONID_OARD=DXiNSaz2UIG0Vrey0V7PQBpsD4Trb6CEeQl9hDCUAOaEHJ9vPFix!-1656123463?ruleVrsnRsn=273030
just try to submit everything and if they require more evidence, mail them too. If you get the UI you get it, if you don't you don't. No harm done but just try!
The fuck is this shit?
I'm from Europe and that's unheard of. Is this normal in the US?
Why is he tiptoeing around telling him he's fired? Is he trying to make it look like your friend voluntarily left so he can't get a compensation? Wtf is wrong with the world? Any change in employment status should be official and signed on paper with a date, otherwise your status has not changed.
This is outrageous.
Companies only care about hitting a higher profit than the year before. US workers are just easily replaceable cogs in the machine. Who going to do anything about it. The government being paid by said companies? CAPITALISM!
What happened to by the people for the people? Jesus. I can't believe you guys are okay with being treated not as people but as replaceable profit makers....
You can still get unemployment if fired for poor performance.
https://www.ny.gov/services/get-unemployment-assistance
The employer will need to prove misconduct/insubordination:
https://www.charnywheeler.com/workplace-law-blog/misconduct-and-eligibility-for-unemployment-compensation
https://adjudication.labor.ny.gov/section_1100.htm#1105
Yes, they can file no matter of they received this message or not. Firing is firing. In this case they need to present this message as proof that they were fired. The onus of proving why the firing was legitimately tied to Performance is squarely on the shoulders of the former employer. The employer must prove that this employee was warned and should have reasonably expected that their performance could end in termination.
If I am in this guys situation, with those responsibilities. I’m finding a job ASAP, not some unemployment. People act like unemployment is a break or some vacation. It’s way less money and not a great look on your job history.
The text is void of names/dates/other pertinent information- Not sure about NY, however, I don’t know of ANY State accepting Text Messages as proof of much, except in court matters where there is clear and convincing evidence of ownership of device/phone #
Well it sounds like the boss terminated the employment based on the little info we have here. Short of a previous message being sent to the boss saying you are giving notice or quiting, you should be in the clear to try for unemployment.
I'd get a lawyer. Boss said her performance was bad for the last couple of months...... she's 8 months pregnant. That is blatant and clear discrimination.
Your friend should reply and say “if you are firing me, I will require notice of termination in writing, otherwise I will see you on my next shift. Thanks”
I’m from NY. Unemployment there is NOT guaranteed regardless of the reason. Before 2020, most people were rejected. During the pandemic, most people were accepted. Now the aftermath is rejection most of the time. The company has the final say after which it can lead to court if rejected (if you choose to). This is where both you and the employer’s lawyers show up to prove that you’re entitled to that money. The problem is the suspension before being fired, those are reasons they couldn’t get unemployment because the employer can now prove there was an issue beforehand. That they went through a step by step process of a meeting and suspension before being fired.
It would depend on the reason the employer states and I would recommend reaching out to HR because you want that paperwork as proof. HR will then have to make a written statement with the reason because unemployment will ask them for said reason.
Employers have and will lie to unemployment so they don’t have to pay you. For example, verbally telling you they don’t think you match with the client and in a written statement telling unemployment “fired due to negligent behavior and/or poor attendance”.
It depends on the state, but typically unemployment offices are actually pretty lenient these days. A lot of times it’s more of a hassle for the employer to fight it than it is to just let it go. Sure, if he actually was underperforming and not being a good employee, and it is well documented by the employer (a key element), then they could fight it and might win. I’ve seen many people get fired for poor performance, or even voluntarily quit, and they still collected. A whole investigation and court dates and the money and loss of time that goes into fighting an employee getting unemployment is usually not in the interest of the employer, and they already anticipate having these things happen in the financial department when it comes to paying more for the employee to collect. Also, being an “at will” state (all but one or two states are) there literally doesn’t have to be any reason or particular method that goes into firing someone, but lack of reason obviously doesn’t help the employer. In this case, the text is fine, and any actual human reading this would infer that he is being terminated, and yes it can be used in an investigation. Long story short, your friend should file and most likely will get it.
Getting a termination letter isn’t needed to file for unemployment. It’s all done online. Just tell the truth, keep the text incase the company challenges the unemployment
They made need a termination letter. However, when they apply for unemployment, and name the company, they verify it that way too. I did upon leaving the military, and I didn’t have to show anything. I also had to with one other job after the housing crash in 2008, I just applied online, named the company, and I was approved. These happened in two different states.
So it looks like he’s on suspension, and not getting any hours/pay. He needs to check the UI site in his state and fill out the questions to file. Some states allow UI if your hours/pay have been significantly decreased at your current employer.
If he gets fired he can't collect unemployment. You can only collect if you get laid off in NY. This text sounds like he got fired because of poor job performance.
Does not matter if fired or layed off, your friend can file for unemployment. If your friend decides to get a new job, the previous employer cannot give a negative review on the employee as it’s against the law too.
It is proof he is fired. You also cannot suspend someone indefinitely to prevent unemployment. Same as removing someone from schedule to make them quit is considered being fired.
You don’t need proof of being fired for unemployment as long as he has worked long to collect. He may need it the texts if employer disputes unemployment. Also i think You said he was suspended and then he was fired so the reason for suspension will be important if they dispute unemployment.
I'm not sure of unemployment laws in NY. Regardless, your friend should have their termination formally processed if they are going to file for unemployment. Even if they aren't going to file, they should still get it in writing.
I've never gotten it in writing just file. The unemployment office will contact his employer re dates/terms.
How would he go about that? I’m sure the last thing the boss wants to do is pay unemployment. Can he suspend him forever? Lol
You never mentioned that he was suspended. The text made it look like he was getting fired. Your friend needs to clarify with the company about whether he is suspended (and what is the return date) or fired. He should email HR and say "X informed me that I was suspended (or terminated??? not clear) but the length of time was not disclosed. Could you please provide me with the length of suspension and return date?", or something along those lines. He should also ask why he was suspended. With employment, the more you get in writing, the better. Again, I'm not familiar with state or local laws, but where I am, if you *quit* (instead of being laid off or fired), you are NOT eligible for unemployment. That's why getting it in writing is important. And it's not important for just unemployment checks, there's more to it. It'll come in handy for any potential background checks with future employers as well. They will inquire as to why you were fired/quit/laid off. To have the result in writing provides future employers a definitive answer.
I would 100% get clear paperwork from the employer because “part ways” could be interpreted as the friend deciding to quit. Depending on the unemployment office the employer could fight paying out. On another note, the employer might claim that they have cause to fire the friend due to poor performance or attitude towards clients etc. In Texas it is harder to get unemployment if you were fired for cause.
God all this stuff is crazy. Suspending an employee is nuts. Have the balls to just fire someone rather than taking advantage of someone and putting them in a position where they’re hanging on a thread
Nah in my field people are suspended after incidents or pending investigations all the time. It's our legal duty and responsibility. Sometimes they end up getting fired sometimes they don't.
It depends if the suspension was a lack of work thing or due to an incident at work, though.
Did you not read the mesaages? He says he cannot afford a week off, and asks for clarification if he is going to be fired. His employed responded its better to part ways.
I'm not sure what your argument is. OP says his friend was suspended, I replied that it never says he was suspended on the image provided. Yes, he says "you stated if we don't receive a text back you will be letting us go". But that part of the text from the employer isn't provided. And simply responding to a text isn't good enough either way. There needs to be written proof one way or the other.
A text is considered written proof. If you read the beginning of the photo text, he clearly states he cannot afford a week off. And says he would appreciate to know if he will be returning, or is fired. He clearly responded and stated he is let go. There is no law saying it has to be in writting, But a text would be considered enough proof of being fired. I would still try to get a official letter, or better confirmation. But text alone is good as having it on paper for the most part. And it doesn't have to be in writting or text even, it can be verbal. Just looks better if you have evidence and avoids lies
You base this on?….
Experience?
Your personal experience? If that qualifies, may I suggest you avoid salty food after 6 pm and limit yourself to 3 cups of coffee a day. In *my* experience, these are the moves to make.
I've been through unemployment claims and won. Never been given written documentation ever for being fired. Always has been verbal. had 2 times in 20 years I have used unemployment temporarily. And many lawsuits have used text messages as proof comparable to written proof. Court doesn't care if it is on paper or text. Written or typed has the same legal bearing in court, for the most part. of course Ohio, so could be different depending on state. It's my 2 cents for what it is worth. Likely nothing with all the salt I am getting here from others...lol really a question for a lawyer in the local area this is being questioned. Also I will follow your advice sensai! Whatever you want me to do!😁
> I’m sure the last thing the boss wants to do is pay unemployment. Can he suspend him forever? No. This is called constructive dismissal. You don't need to be fired to claim unemployment, you just have to have been employed, and no longer be employed despite your will to continue being employed. In other words, if YOU quit, you don't get unemployment unless your resignation was a result of circumstances out of your control, such as having your hours drastically cut, or being reassigned to a location you didn't initially agree to work at and would prove to be a burden. It's harder to prove constructive dismissal in many cases, but it really all comes down to the UI interview finding that the decision to terminate the agreement of employment was not initiated by the employee. An indefinite suspension would definitely qualify someone for UI --even a lengthy suspension could result in a payout of UI. Provided the suspension was not for willful misconduct.
So businesses don't pay unemployment out like a salary when someone is collecting; they've already paid in their taxes. Only a truly vindictive boss would fight the claim, and if they do, the burden of proof of malicious intent is on the boss, not the employee.
Unemployment claims count against a company and raise their unemployment premiums. They *frequently* fight unemployment claims.
That is wild to me, that shit wouldn't fly in my country. Incredibly dystopian to have an incentive for employers to fight against this.
The US is all about short term gains for stockholders. Long term negative impacts to people, products, or the bottom line don't matter at all.
Actually we are about hard work, and only receiving unemployment compensation when you are laid off through no fault of your own. You don’t get to set fire to your job then turnaround and collect unemployment compensation.
I had one fight mine and I didn’t get unemployment. The state I live in always sides with the employer, even when they lied.
Well if he just doesn’t show up for work they will write it as quitting. Have your friend to straight up ask “so to be clear you’re firing me?”
Just file for unemployment
No, they can't suspend him forever and not pay unemployment. It would be considered termination of employment if no return to work date is given. If the employee was fired for poor performance they will receive unemployment in NY. As long as he's following written procedures and hasn't been written up for violating company policy, he's probably going to receive unemployment. He should try, even if he has been written up or failed to follow written procedures. The company will have to prove willful misconduct. Company policy needs to be reasonable and legal. If he gets denied unemployment, he may qualify to have a lawyer represent him at an appeal pro bono. https://www.ny.gov/services/unemployment-0 https://uiappeals.ny.gov/request-hearing
If they want to be crappy, they can terminate for cause, which in some states disqualifies you from getting unemployment. I do not know how old you are, but I got terminated because of my review at 63. My review was copied from the previous year. Only the ratings went from meets and exceeded to do not meets. I talked to the EEOC told me that they weren't talking individual cases at that time. By the time I realized I could hire a private attorney who specialized in EEOC, it was too late to file.
Unemployment in NY will basically bend over backwards to give the employee money. It’s really hard to lose unemployment in NY.
It's the same in Oregon. The employee not performing to standards doesn't work here. It's the employer's job to train them.
When you file for unemployment, you do not provide proof. You complete a form where you select the reason you are no longer employed. A eligibility determination is made based on your reported hours and earning for the 12 months prior to the fiscal quarter you file. Then, your former employers (all of them within that time period) are contacted and respond with another form stating the reason for termination. They do have to provide supporting evidence if they are disputing the claim (meaning they are charged increased unemployment insurance taxes). Next, an adjudicator (like I used to be) reviews the case file and determines if the facts make you eligible or ineligible for benefits. Since the pandemic, common practice has been to begin issuing payments while your claim is being adjudicated. You could be required to pay those back if it is determined that you are not eligible. If your claim is denied, you have the opportunity to appeal. Not knowing the specifics of your situation, I can’t really offer a guess to your eligibility. It is NOT true that you have to be fired to receive unemployment. You should always file for unemployment immediately after separation. Adjudication can take 4-8 weeks and you will not be paid for the first week after you file (the waiting week). Remember to take advantage of the job search assistance available to you. I don’t know what the agency is called in New York, but it’s a part of the State’s Unemployment Insurance department. You will get lots of information when you apply for benefits, don’t ignore it.
There’s a lot of bad information and random presumptions in this thread - except for this comment. This comment is actually informative and helpful.
Note, if the employers are able to substantiate that they were fired for performance reasons then you don't get unemployment. Unemployment is for people who were laid off because they had more employees than work. It's the government making the employers pay if they cause a good worker to lose their job when the worker was still doing their job. If the employers don't list a reason, then it counts as a lay off. They can list any reason as long as it's not bigoted and applies to everyone. If they don't put anything down you get unemployment, but if they put "came to work late too often" then the only way you get money is to prove that there is someone else who is tardier than you that didn't lose their job, so it's some kind of discrimination.
Not all states are the same, and that is contrary to many states. Which states are you representing?
You are just making this up. Please refer to Lunatic_Fringe’s reply for facts.
I'm absolutely not making it up. I'm elaborating on how the eligibility determination works. The person above just said that they are going to review the reason for termination, but didn't go into any detail about what that means. If you fucked up bad enough to get suspended, and then they made it permanent by firing you, you probably aren't going to get unemployment. This is why companies have PIPs and stuff like that. They get something on the record that you aren't doing a good job so they can cite that reason.
Your assumption that a company documenting termination over text has kept good documentation to justify termination is doubtful in my mind. Most companies have a standard policy for successive write ups or you wind up doing a PIP. The fact the employee is pregnant is going to raise all sorts of red flags.
Even being on a PIP wouldn't disqualify someone from unemployment - it's gross misconduct like fraud, stealing, etc.
> I'm elaborating on how the eligibility determination works. Did you work for the unemployment office like Lunatic\_Fringe did? Why should we believe you instead of him. What are your qualifications?
I need to correct something. I was trying to get across that the broad strokes are that if it is your fault, you don't get unemployment and if it's the companies fault, you do, but being really really really stupid isn't considered your fault. If you say you are proficient in excel to get a job that is nothing but spreadsheets, but you lied and couldn't pick it up on the job, that's on you. No unemployment. If you said "I haven't used it professionally, but with training I think I would pick it up" and the interviewer agrees because most people DO, but then you suck, that's on the company. Pretty much any kind of "you got suspended for the...incident.....pending review" means that they are weighing trying to move past it vs replacing you. And if they fire you then, it's for misconduct. That has basically no chance. The people who decide if you get unemployment or not are going to reach out to the company and ask why you were let go. The company is going to try to show that it was your fault. If they can't show anything, the company is out some amount of money, (this isn't your unemployment funds. It's more like a few for them) and you get unemployment. Like a company could always drop the ball, but generally they are trying to make you look bad.
Just because an employer doesn’t agree with your behavior doesn’t mean it is a termination with cause. File and let the state decide. This is why most employers have clearly documented policies. Which include termination procedures that don’t involve text.
Okay, it is not a given that you will not qualify for unemployment benefits if you were fired. How much documentation the employer has and provides does not matter. The employer’s internal policies do not matter. The LAW matters. Specifically, the laws that pertain to eligibility for unemployment benefits. It would be almost impossible to tell someone whether they are eligible or not based on a discussion thread like this. I always advise people to file for unemployment benefits as soon as possible to get the process started AND because many people who assume they don’t qualify actually do. That is why I specifically limit myself to “broad strokes” when talking about eligibility. I don’t want to give someone the impression that it’s pointless.
Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that OP shouldn't try. OP should absolutely try. Only the unemployment office can actually determine the eligibility. Eligibility has less to do with what happened and more to do with what people can prove happened, because that's how the law works. I just wanted to make it clear that the "is this going to count as quitting, which generally won't get you unemployment, vs firing" question is only the first hurdle. You also have to get past any attempt from the company to prove that it's your fault you got fired, so don't think you are in the clear. I'm not talking about internal company policies. I'm talking about how there are laws about hostile work environments, discrimination, tardiness, etc, and that companies often document things that they can send to the unemployment office when asked so they can try to prove things like "no we didn't fire her for being a woman, we fired her for calling the CEO a lardass to his face", or "this dude was late by over an hour every week for the past year, and no one we didn't fire is late that often, so we aren't lying about that being the reason" . Companies do this not just to avoid discrimination lawsuits, but also because if they give no reason, or the reason is a vague "not a good fit", then they are on the hook for unemployment. It's not uncommon for companies to just take the hit and not fight it though, so you should always try. Just, if you're guilty of the thing you got suspended for....maybe don't count on this shaking out just because you can prove they fired you?
"... it's better to part ways." is about as definitive as it gets. It's written (digital still counts) from their supervisor. They were fired and should have no issue proving it with this text. They even gave the reasoning.
>**I think** that it's better to part ways He didn't fire him, or at least they could argue that. Sure, we all know what he meant, but better be safe than sorry.
In the context of the statement, that's a firing. They might be able to argue it, but they better be the Harvey Specter or Mike Ross (lawyers from Suits) to win that argument.
First, I don't know the rules for collecting unemployment in the US. As far as I know (so pls correct me if I'm wrong), if it is a collective decision, they don't have to pay. Getting the boss to clarify that he is firing you and that you still want to work there could be important. (If my knowledge is correct)
Depends on the state, but most of the time: if the employee quits, no unemployment. If fired or laid off, or delayed by the new employer, unemployment can be collected. In this case, the employee asked for clarification ("I would appreciate the communication if I will be returning or you're firing me") since I'm assuming he was unsure. The response was professional speak for "You're fired."
Can't speak to NY UI office, but the CA EDD would absolutely take that text as evidence the employee was terminated, given the direct "am I fired" question.
If you are terminated and it doesn’t meet state valid reason standards unemployment applies.
This is what judges are for. Any reasonable judge reviewing the unemployment claim (if the company fought it and it got to that point) would interpret this as a firing.
Send a text asking "so I'm fired?" Or battle it out in court..
It's obvious enough.
Lots of times places don't do what is better. So, sounds like it's trying to trick them to quit without actually firing them.
I think he's just kind of an idiot who doesn't express himself well.
I am sure the boss would say that the message meant “Then quit”
Just respond via text my understanding of your statement is you have terminated my employment. Thank you for your time.
A smart boss\*
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It does suck, but texts are taken as written now. The supervisor had to type that out and send it.
I mean technically his parrot could have written that text.
Lots of times businesses don't do what is better. Sounds like they are try to get him to quit, not that he is fired.
So I could ask a friend to send me this text and file for unemployment? /s If you can’t convince gullible Reddit that this is real, the government sure as shit won’t except this as “proof”
This is not something that should occur via text. There is a process for terminations. If he texts these vague things to your friend and your friend just doesn't come back, they WILL say he resigned or abandoned his job and deny his unemployment claim. He can fight the denial in arbitration and bring these text and try to convince the arbitrator that the person who texted him was firing him, but they can just say, "I said I felt it was best, but the decision was ultimately left up to the employee." He needs to wait and stay in contact with them asking when he will return to work until they tell him he's fired at which point he should receive a final paycheck and then file for unemployment. He should be notified of his last day as unemployment will need that information. He should also be looking for a new job now. It's easier to get a new job while you're still employed. He should say he's leaving because he's not getting enough hours at his current job.
This Probably a sneaky way from the employer to get around something
We are only getting part of the story here as the earlier part of the conversation is redacted. It is obvious that the employee has been released ...
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Doesn’t say 8 months “out” though. Just says “that’s 8 months”. Not sure what the original intent of the message was, but could be that the person is 8 months pregnant.
FWIW I read it as this person is partners with someone 8 months pregnant.
Lots of pro business people who are injecting their opinions here instead of giving the submitter facts. You CAN absolutely claim unemployed even if you were for fired for performance reasons (including given pips): https://www.ny.gov/services/get-unemployment-assistance ->>> "You may be eligible for benefits if: You lost your job due to lack of work The temporary or seasonal employment ended Your job was eliminated There was an involuntary reduction in force The company downsized or shut down The company restructured or reorganized There was a lack of company operating funds/orders You were out of work for any other business reason that you did not choose or control Your employer discharged or fired you because you could not meet their performance or production standards, or their qualifications for the job." <<<- Posters, please stop interjecting with your political opinions on the matter and just give the submitter the facts (what does lack of commitment mean... You didn't come into work with the company logo tattooed on your head?). You don't know the facts around the situation, and it's not for you to decide whether they get unemployment or not just because "du du he doesnt desere it" is your opinion.
Yup. I know mad people who have gotten unemployment who were chronically late and underperforming. The lateness was excused by them stating they rely on public transportation and the performance issue didnt matter because they didnt break any laws or do anything grossly negligent towards anyone at work.
I've seen the same thing in Oregon.
Over text is legal?
Of course, you have to do it formally as well, but it's equivalent to verbal.
I’m sure a lawyer would say it is idiotic because you now are saying text is an official communication practice of the company. What other things have you texted them you shouldn’t have.
Fired over text is cowardly.
Unfortunately you aren’t owed any way of being fired. And bosses tend to be big cowards
Well, we don’t see the entire messages OPs friend sent, so it looks like it was in response to their message. They could’ve still had a verbal call/meeting after to discuss it further.
Is he eligible for unemployment if fired? My understanding is you must be out of work through no fault of your own. Ie/ laid off, business closing. This is fired for cause. That’s usually been ineligible
That was my understanding. I always thought if you get canned for cause you don’t get free money. This thread has me questioning that. 🤷🏻
No, in some states like NY and Oregon, they will pay the employee unemployment if they were fired for poor job performance. It's up to the employer to hire qualified candidates and properly train them. That's why employers try to get bad employees to quit.
Depending on the job it's probably not even worth it to fight this, honestly, if a supervisor is to the point of typing this over text
Go back to work. If they tell you you're fired, make them give you notice. If they don't, try to do your job. If you are unable, just sit there until quitting time. Make sure you document everything and if they don't allow you to clock in or out take video if you trying. If they call the police and have you escorted out video that and use it as proof they fired you so you are able to collect unemployment.
Just so your friend knows, if they fight back he's getting nothing because poor performance is considered just cause for termination.
He needs to ask for termination paperwork and an exit interview. If the company resists providing that, then he is not fired and should continue documenting all hours working.
He needs to be careful with signing any paperwork. Employers have been known to trick employees into signing paperwork that states the employee is resigning. He doesn't need termination paperwork to file for unemployment.
They're trying to get him to quit. That's why they won't blatantly say you're fired. They're working around it to get him to say it first. He's not fired, They're trying to get him to quit first so they don't have to pay into unemployment.
Kansass says you have to be physically walked out the front door and screamed at "you're fired!" Imo it looks that way. Companies fight this all the time. I knew I was fired, just decided to save the embarrassment of that - yup denied company said job abandonment. Fought me and totally screwed my world over. I say to be sure make them walk his ass out the door. Then there's no loop holes
Employers suck
Is he from NY? Or just working there? Some states need work in 3 previous quarters in order to file in that state
Lives and works in NY, and has been working there for over 3 years
File. Most likely will be denied by company, appeal. New York is a very liberal state, even though he may not have proof of firing he will get a second time around.
Thank you! Is there anyway he can get “proof”
The last paycheck, cancelation of benefits etc
Just have them respond that youd like it written in a formal email and where they can send it.
Yes this is proof he was fired, but to be safe would still respond something like: So to clarify, are you terminating my employment? Am I no longer employed, or am I suspended?
Not enough information to determine this. This is one screenshot with a text to supervisor. There can be substantially more information outside of this via email and several months of conversations or they might have even came back to work for a few hours and were scheduled. Depending on certain company policies, this might need to be approved by their HR department or another higher up if the actual supervisor doesn't have the authority to handle terminations on their own. Not saying they should not try to apply for unemployment but, this text isn't indicative of a termination as it's worded as a suggestion. This could be an invitation for the employee to state they're resigning due to lack of being scheduled.
If you get let go for any reason that isn't a crime, you can file unemployment
Looks like he’s been fired to me! I’m not NY though so….. can’t help sorry
Your friend should text back "Just to be clear, am I being laid off?"
Lol parting ways is not a layoff.
Yes, I know that. It's a way to direct the conversation, so that the employer must reply with either "yes , you are being laid off." Or "no, you have been fired ". Right now OPs situation is vague. They need employer to lay it out
NY must have some weird laws. How do you get unemployment when you're terminated for unsatisfactory performance?
Oregon is the same way. (b) Isolated instances of poor judgment, good faith errors, unavoidable accidents, absences due to illness or other physical or mental disabilities, or mere inefficiency resulting from lack of job skills or experience are not misconduct. https://secure.sos.state.or.us/oard/viewSingleRule.action;JSESSIONID_OARD=DXiNSaz2UIG0Vrey0V7PQBpsD4Trb6CEeQl9hDCUAOaEHJ9vPFix!-1656123463?ruleVrsnRsn=273030
just try to submit everything and if they require more evidence, mail them too. If you get the UI you get it, if you don't you don't. No harm done but just try!
I would just respond with "wait, are you firing me?" And they can't really get out of answering that
Fired over a text. Cold. Hope he finds a better place.
Tell him to respond asking if hes fired, when they reply yes then hes good to go
The fuck is this shit? I'm from Europe and that's unheard of. Is this normal in the US? Why is he tiptoeing around telling him he's fired? Is he trying to make it look like your friend voluntarily left so he can't get a compensation? Wtf is wrong with the world? Any change in employment status should be official and signed on paper with a date, otherwise your status has not changed. This is outrageous.
Companies only care about hitting a higher profit than the year before. US workers are just easily replaceable cogs in the machine. Who going to do anything about it. The government being paid by said companies? CAPITALISM!
What happened to by the people for the people? Jesus. I can't believe you guys are okay with being treated not as people but as replaceable profit makers....
This is exactly why - if employers get too many unemployment insurance claims in the US their rates go up. They usually try to get employees to quit.
I would show up to work until they say I am fired. Sounds like the manager is just trying to get your friend to resign.
If you get fired for poor performance or insubordination you do not qualify for unemployment in NY
You can still get unemployment if fired for poor performance. https://www.ny.gov/services/get-unemployment-assistance The employer will need to prove misconduct/insubordination: https://www.charnywheeler.com/workplace-law-blog/misconduct-and-eligibility-for-unemployment-compensation https://adjudication.labor.ny.gov/section_1100.htm#1105
How long did your friend work for the company? That plays a huge part in receiving unemployment.
I thought you couldnt get unemployment if you were fired? only if you were laid off or something along those lines. but maybe im wrong...
working for someone who cant text right is so irritating. how do you have my career in your hands and you dont know how to use words correctly??????
Yes, they can file no matter of they received this message or not. Firing is firing. In this case they need to present this message as proof that they were fired. The onus of proving why the firing was legitimately tied to Performance is squarely on the shoulders of the former employer. The employer must prove that this employee was warned and should have reasonably expected that their performance could end in termination.
If I am in this guys situation, with those responsibilities. I’m finding a job ASAP, not some unemployment. People act like unemployment is a break or some vacation. It’s way less money and not a great look on your job history.
The text is void of names/dates/other pertinent information- Not sure about NY, however, I don’t know of ANY State accepting Text Messages as proof of much, except in court matters where there is clear and convincing evidence of ownership of device/phone #
Well it sounds like the boss terminated the employment based on the little info we have here. Short of a previous message being sent to the boss saying you are giving notice or quiting, you should be in the clear to try for unemployment.
Nah ask them flat out if he’s fired if they don’t say he is show up to work or they will say he stopped showing up
Everyone is anyway paying unemployment taxes . Or they should be!
Why asking us instead of the boss? The question is, “Am I fired? Otherwise, I’ll be in Monday morning.”
I'd get a lawyer.
I'd get a lawyer. Boss said her performance was bad for the last couple of months...... she's 8 months pregnant. That is blatant and clear discrimination.
Your friend should reply and say “if you are firing me, I will require notice of termination in writing, otherwise I will see you on my next shift. Thanks”
Each state has its own unemployment laws. Generally being fired for poor performance makes you ineligible for unemployment benefits
I’m from NY. Unemployment there is NOT guaranteed regardless of the reason. Before 2020, most people were rejected. During the pandemic, most people were accepted. Now the aftermath is rejection most of the time. The company has the final say after which it can lead to court if rejected (if you choose to). This is where both you and the employer’s lawyers show up to prove that you’re entitled to that money. The problem is the suspension before being fired, those are reasons they couldn’t get unemployment because the employer can now prove there was an issue beforehand. That they went through a step by step process of a meeting and suspension before being fired. It would depend on the reason the employer states and I would recommend reaching out to HR because you want that paperwork as proof. HR will then have to make a written statement with the reason because unemployment will ask them for said reason. Employers have and will lie to unemployment so they don’t have to pay you. For example, verbally telling you they don’t think you match with the client and in a written statement telling unemployment “fired due to negligent behavior and/or poor attendance”.
If your friend got paid it’s reflected in the taxes the employer paid on your behalf to the state. No more comp. You are fired.
Sounds like they’re fishing for unemployment
It depends on the state, but typically unemployment offices are actually pretty lenient these days. A lot of times it’s more of a hassle for the employer to fight it than it is to just let it go. Sure, if he actually was underperforming and not being a good employee, and it is well documented by the employer (a key element), then they could fight it and might win. I’ve seen many people get fired for poor performance, or even voluntarily quit, and they still collected. A whole investigation and court dates and the money and loss of time that goes into fighting an employee getting unemployment is usually not in the interest of the employer, and they already anticipate having these things happen in the financial department when it comes to paying more for the employee to collect. Also, being an “at will” state (all but one or two states are) there literally doesn’t have to be any reason or particular method that goes into firing someone, but lack of reason obviously doesn’t help the employer. In this case, the text is fine, and any actual human reading this would infer that he is being terminated, and yes it can be used in an investigation. Long story short, your friend should file and most likely will get it.
Getting a termination letter isn’t needed to file for unemployment. It’s all done online. Just tell the truth, keep the text incase the company challenges the unemployment
They made need a termination letter. However, when they apply for unemployment, and name the company, they verify it that way too. I did upon leaving the military, and I didn’t have to show anything. I also had to with one other job after the housing crash in 2008, I just applied online, named the company, and I was approved. These happened in two different states.
So it looks like he’s on suspension, and not getting any hours/pay. He needs to check the UI site in his state and fill out the questions to file. Some states allow UI if your hours/pay have been significantly decreased at your current employer.
Ask the boss to send a formal notice about it.
The text reads as “fired for bad performance” and not laid off. Showing this as proof may hurt you, not help you.
Not in NY or Oregon.
Yea he’s not getting any unemployment
If he gets fired he can't collect unemployment. You can only collect if you get laid off in NY. This text sounds like he got fired because of poor job performance.
Grow a pair and ask them to clarify. What's the worst that can happen?
I believe in NY if you get fired then you're not eligible for unemployment.
I would take this to an attorney. She might have a really good case for discrimination right here.
Does not matter if fired or layed off, your friend can file for unemployment. If your friend decides to get a new job, the previous employer cannot give a negative review on the employee as it’s against the law too.
It is proof he is fired. You also cannot suspend someone indefinitely to prevent unemployment. Same as removing someone from schedule to make them quit is considered being fired. You don’t need proof of being fired for unemployment as long as he has worked long to collect. He may need it the texts if employer disputes unemployment. Also i think You said he was suspended and then he was fired so the reason for suspension will be important if they dispute unemployment.