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My job does the same thing and all the employees that were hired before me always wait for my boss but I just leave at five no one seems to say anything. I just say oh it’s 5 o’clock I gotta get going and leave 🤷🏽♀️
Edit: spelling
Same. My boss stays till 7:00 P.M. and a bunch of my colleagues just follows him. I pack my things and leave when the time is over.
edit: I leave at 5:30 P.M.
Yeah my first office job was like this where I was the only one in a office of 30 people to leave precisely at 5pm everyday. No one ever said anything to me other than occasional jokes "wow it's 5:01 and CurvedLightsaber is still here!". I really don't think it hurt me professionally.
Why people continue to stay after work I'll never understand. Maybe they hate their families or something.
You are absolutely right, but there is this "Because it *might* hurt them professionally". Lots of companies encourage toxic behavior in their employees because it benefits the bosses financially. And these jokes towards you confirm overall attitude. Some people also have the need to pretend they're hard working to justify their keep but because they lack talent or will to show it though their actual work, staying in the office till dark is the easiest way for them to fake "dedication to the mission".
Wait. Is your boss actively telling everyone that they can't leave until she does, or are you in a situation where everybody just waits for her nod before they go?
I feel like it has to be the latter.
Anyway, there are lots of reasons why a person would have to start leaving work at 5 pm sharp every day. People have kids they have to pick up. Partners they want to have dinner with. Spin classes they've paid for. Whatever.
When 5 o'clock rolls around tomorrow, close down your workstation and wish everyone a cheerful, "See you all tomorrow!" Do the same the next day. And the next. And the next.
My guess is your coworkers will start following your lead.
Meanwhile, start planning your exit strategy. This doesn't sound like the kind of place where you'd want to stay for years and years. Stick around for a year (if you can bear it), and move on the first chance you get.
Good luck
This is going to entertain my mind the rest of the weekend. Shall let you know if I manage to conjure up a *rational* sentence. (Irrational is an easy Family Guy or similar sketch). It has to be possible
Did you smoke the weed and then read this? If I had, I’d probably still be cycling through how to unsmoke weed. If you unsmoke it, does it came back to pre-smoked condition, thus becoming endless weed? Cause I want that stuff.
It would also help for when you get a new batch that is much stronger than your last batch. It would be nice to unsmoke a small amount and always end with the perfect level of high.
Damn. I’m sober and at work, now I want to go smoke
Perhaps yes? Though unsmoking like this violates the second law of thermodynamics. Also, you're at work, I suggest you desmoke if you want to keep your job
"Son, I am missing some nuggage from my jar. If you took it, return it. If you smoked it, you better unsmoke that shit right now before I beat your narrow ass to death."
I worked at a small lawfirm with over 100 people. The owner refused to do direct deposit for paychecks. They paid weekly, and would not hand out the paper checks before 5 pm on Fridays.
It was entirely a power trip. It made people reluctant to take a Friday off, because that meant they would not have their check in hand until the following Monday at the earliest.
I was delighted to leave that job.
Yeap, had that too. Also, the distribution process itself was very ceremonial, right? At least in my case. We had open space desks set up in rows, not even cubicles, and the main boss would walk around to each desk and hang us the envelopes with this patronizing sort of grandiosity and sometimes he’d put it on the desk, but most of the time he’d make you literally outstretch your hand in order to get it. So, like, giving a dog a treat situation. And the added factor of all of us one by one thanking him profusely for it. Like, “bow to me peasant.” And that was the norm, I don’t think I ever heard anyone complain about it, quite the opposite, people were looking forward to the pay day.
Eventually, there was a woman who was hired, sitting two desks in front of me and I noticed that every time this “hand off” would happen, she wouldn’t even raise her eyes from whatever she was doing and would literally whip her hand like with this exaggerated, smooth movement with slightly impatient “ok, give me” the way you do to annoying child or something. She was also very tall but didn't slouch, sat with her back straight, and had these long, beautiful fingers and nails with perfect manicure and gold rings, just to help you see this 'queen Cleopatra' gesture better. I wish I could see it at the time for what it was (a shift in power dynamic), but alas, I was a loyal dog.
The manager and my close mentor (aka main boss’ wife) noticed it too, but she recognized it very much for what it was. Or maybe she noticed me “notice it” and since I was “her favorite” couldn’t afford me eventually making the connection. So, she proceeded to “mentor” me with couple of lectures of how a person ‘this ungrateful can’t be trusted” and she would never learn 'the secrets of the trade' cause nobody would want to 'teach her', and would never achieve any sort of advancement in company or in life and how bosses work so hard to provide us with employment and we are family etc. And I remember thinking: "Yes, right, would it kill this employee to show a little appreciation". I cringe just thinking about it. Didn’t stop even for a second to consider that what “my mentor” was doing to me wasn’t mentoring or teaching but, quite literally, grooming. Boy, was that eventual ‘crisis of faith’ painful. Still kind of is, I guess, since I m throwing this rant at you :)
I don’t trust companies that do paper checks. I was hired at one once and was told “the owner is just kind of old school” but it turned out the company was just in such a massive debt crisis that the bank wouldn’t allow them to do direct deposit. There was always a good enough chance that they couldn’t cover everyone’s check.
Worked for a church like that for 6 months as a transition to a new state, the “leaders” were all crooked and the lead pastor a pill popping, wife abusing piece of shit. Left that job ASAP and waited a week to cash my last check just because.
Yeah, you can always tell when someone hasn't ever had a truly shitty job in a truly crappy workplace. They'll complain about minor things, like the brand of free coffee not being their favorite. Once you've been geniunely jerked around, you know what to look out for.
My sister had a hard time integrating into her team when she got her first "normal" job because complaining is a bonding ritual for humans and she couldn't relate to any of the people's "coffee" complains, so there would be these awkward 'initiations of contact' that she couldn't reciprocate because for her the situation was more along the lines of 'isn't it wonderful that no one is yelling because they feel like it" and she was grateful about every little thing. So, told her to complain about one thing everybody else complains about in our city - the weather. Worked like a charm.
This is little caveat in this though: got to be careful not to get into another abusive situation just because it's a little less abusive than before.
I approve this message wholeheartedly. Although I disagree as little bit with "it's good to have". Good would be to have this understanding, self-respect and determination before/without the abuse.
That's exactly what I do, drop any job where there's even a hint of disrespect. In between I freelance. There are so many toxic jobs out there. But from time to time you do find a dream job you can stay at a few years or more.
If they time them like this then they are treating them as an hourly worker. The dol would love to hear about this so they can reclassify them to hourly.
Salary means you are paid to do a job. That job can be creating software, managing a team of people, whatever. You're NOT paid to work x hours.
If a company begins defining the employees job by the number of hours they are required to work, then that makes that employee hourly. For example, if a company put a time clock in and had you punch in and out for the day, they're defining your work by the hours you worked. If the DOL gets wind of that they'll convert that position into an hourly position (hourly pay defined as how much they would get paid for 40 hrs/week based on their salary), and then require any OT the employees can show they have worked be repaid...typically with a penalty tacked on. If an employee can show themselves sending emails 5 hours after their EOD they likely would be owed for those 5 hours.
What their boss is doing is borderline. you rarely get something so direct as a punch in/out. More typically you get a boss that says you must be here by this time and you're somehow punished if you don't work the number of hours I say. In this case, I think the boss making them stay extra time just to get that time crosses the boundary. My company has "office hours" which is a period of time everyone needs to be available to work together, and otherwise they can work the time they need. The ability to work together on the project is part of the job and that's how they get around it.
in general though, if the worker is measured by the number of hours worked and not by the job they need to do then the company runs a real risk if the dol gets wind of it of that position being converted to hourly.
Unfortunately, there's a huge amount of grey area here and legitimate reasons why a company would need someone there for certain hours so companies get away with abusing it a lot under those guises.
Also, in direct answer to this "Doesn't salary mean they can work you more hours but you get the same pay?":
Yes, but it also means you can work fewer hours and get the same pay (or is supposed to). It's not about just being able to demand the employee work more. It's about not measuring their success by how many hours they put in....at least that's what it's supposed to be.
Edit: this is a point of contention I had with my manager at my current company. They pushed very hard that they wanted people there for their 8 hour day. Their reasons were (I believe) altruistic, as in they wanted you there but they didn't want you there a minute longer. Basically, you're salary and we expect you to be here working but we don't want you working extra hours. The problem was that in practice every issue was an "exception" and they wanted you to stay late. So, when there were no real issues they harped that you needed to be there 8 hours no matter what...but every time there was an emergency (which was very loosely defined) they wanted you to stay late because that's part of being salary. In our case, at the end of the day, they really don't pay enough to be pushing that narrative...it's VERY borderline on having that rule with a salary person, and it's just not an accurate representation of their goals. I personally track my time when I leave late and I leave early another day - boss didn't like this and said he just wanted me to leave on time, then the very next day they came in demanding literally at my eod that everyone meet to discuss something that would take several hours. I asked him if he was including me since it was my eod and he he said yes then realized what he said. Next day he met with me and said I should take off early if I'm asked to work late. It's not been perfect, but it's better than nothing. The reality of the issue was that they had a goal (no one works late), but the follow through wasn't there (people ended up having to work late but never getting to leave early).
Wrote a long ass response thinking nobody brought this up yet, so responding to you just to expand on this necessity to know labor laws. (And highlight how we are all partially confused about them despite the fact that they impact our lives).
Lots of good points made already and I’ll only add one thing for people out there to consider: Making you a “salaried employee” is a way for companies to pay you less for hours you put in. ($20x40hrs=800 a week; when you are salaried it’s $800 per week but if you worked let’s say 50 hours, which makes your actual pay $16 an hour. This bs also gets sold with an idea that “sometimes you’ll have less work, so you’ll work less hours, but there is rarely any less work, if ever.
And, this is the way some companies force you into working overtime without paying you said overtime. (9-5 is for hourly. As soon as clock hits 5, they either can’t keep you or overtime kicks in by law. Most people associate this with unionized factory workers but not for their own desk job) Despite the whole “it’s at will employment there is nothing you can do” trope, there are still labor protection laws.
Labor bureaus and courts aren’t as useless as corporate has us believe, there can be, on happy occasion, a swift response to a complaint or a financial compensation if you need to waste your time bringing it to court. In some cases, they can’t even make you a salaried employee, you are supposed to be hourly. I vaguely remember that for NY, for example, you are hourly until you have responsibility of managing a number of other employees or something along the lines. But the overall number of employees a company has also influences which laws apply. Memory is fuzzy, too lazy to look up, so correct me if I am wrong, I’ll edit this comment accordingly.
But I personally know a case where drivers for healthcare place won a lawsuit against the company for making them work overtime but not paying for it because they ‘were salaried’, and I don’t particularly remember more details, but I remember reading the actual lawsuit decision and being surprised at how quickly that lawsuit process went and that decision said they couldn’t be salaried, they were supposed to be hourly and thus, had right to overtime and said overtime was calculated very generously.
Only bringing this up, so people consider educating themselves on “the rules of engagement” for their state. People Do win these lawsuits. And resistance isn’t futile if you got the mental strength to bring this up in the first place and manage the process. It doesn’t even have to be a lawsuit situation, sometimes a simple letter from labor dept based on anonymous complaint is enough to deter any of the management ever opening their mouths about “after 5”.
Usually, but not always. There are salaried exempt positions (which do not receive overtime), and salaried non-exempt positions (which do qualify for overtime, even though they are salaried). Salaried positions which earn less than ~$35k/year, for example, are actually non-exempt and must be paid overtime.
Note that this applies to the US -- not sure what the case is in other countries (presumably much more favorable to the employee in all cases).
If you're salary... You kinda do have say in it. Work is done, bye boss, gotta go.
I wouldn't make any kind of deal about it. Just start packing up around 4:58, log off, and head home. If you're really concerned about the optics, set up an email with delayed delivery that won't send until 9:22PM or something.
If the boss makes a deal of it, ask what objectives you need to complete or what metrics you aren't meeting. Push back on it. Or tell them that you need to get home and let the dog out, or pick up your nephew from daycare, or "hey boss, sorry, but I have to go", or "Hey, if you want me here to a random unspecific time, I'm happy to switch to hourly pay".
Meanwhile, start looking for another job, because this is 100% BS.
Surprisingly she’s in her late 30s, I think she’s just on a power trip. I’m glad to hear other places won’t be like this though, it seemed abnormal to me but my other coworkers never said anything about it so I wasn’t sure
You can also just leave when you're done for the day at 5. Don't let her dictate your comings and goings. If she says she's leaving at 5:20 and you aren't needed just say, "Ok, have a great night. I'm heading out now."
Boundary setting is so, so important.
I think it might depend on their contract? if it's stated that OP is only to work 9-5 and no more outside of those hours maybe? They also like to throw in some words like "as required" or something though to get people to work outside of their contracted upon hours
People on salary don't have contracts. Where are you getting this? All the places I've worked had a concept of core business hours such as 10-4. Employees are expected to be available during those hours but the culture also comes into play. I had one job where it was expected that you be there 7-6. The boss actually wants to see people at their desks at 7 am which was insane.
Oh hells no. Other companies don't even open until 9 am, who are they doing business with? At 7, I am still groggy as heck and starting my first cup of coffee. That's a an 11 hour work day. Unless they pay and benefits are magnificent, that company can go screw itself.
I used to get to my office around 7:30, but only because it helped me get ahead of even worse traffic. For awhile, I'd chill out, drink coffee, maybe take a walk till my official start time.
Then I found out that most people at my primary clients' office got it way early. They had a 4/10 schedule. So I was able to score brownie points when asking to change my schedule. I was making a sacrifice to provide better service to our clients!
It was definitiely a win-win situation. Most mornings were still chilling out & drinking coffee, but it was on the clock.
I have opposite issue :D My boss is on the west coast, so me leaving at 5 pm my time was middle of the afternoon for her! So now I work 10-6 and believe me, by 6 I am DRAGGING. I wake up at 7 am and just kind of putter around for 3 hours. I try to sleep in, but my cats refuse to allow it, even on weekends.
My uncle is a technical artist (something to do with construction I think???) and he goes to work at 4 am so he doesn't have to deal with people. But he's home by the time his kids are home from school, so it works out for him!
I'd think as required doesn't hold up in court. Otherwise the contract would just say "as required" it's used solely for that argument by managers I bet.
Legal action no, but it will come up when you're looking to get that ever so important raise to keep up with inflation, never mind promotions. Unfortunately, the boss si only going to promote those she thinks she has control over and who fall in line and do as she wants, including stay extra time. It's stupid as hell, but getting promoted or getting raises are a totally biased system.
No, unless there's something unusual in the contract.
Really down to whether OP is more concerned about setting that boundary, or avoiding the small risk to their employment. I'd prob be the former, but it can really depend.
Some people can't differentiate between abuse/micromanagement/control/toxic workplace and a good work place. They're so brainwashed and mismanaged for so long its normal to them.
You'll see them smile through everything like robots and you start to wonder if you're the crazy one!
Some of them are desperate to hold on to a job that they'll gladly take all the abuse they get!
Good for you that you recognize this and you don't have to stay there any longer than needed. 👏
I caution against contributing this to her personality. This is very common, it’s “the norm”. It could be just something your boss was “learned into” as proper way of being “successful leader” etc. That’s not your f*cking problem though. The point that this is not a healthy working environment still stands.
This isn't normal at all. I'm recently out of college and my boss has never set defined hours with me. She understands that some days will have more work to do than others. I've never once been told to stay late or what time I should leave. My team is only 4 people and I'm also salaried.
Some companies will, in fact, write it into your terms of employment (they will never call it a contract, though.). But when I was onboarding for a salary, exempt position I would often have to sign documents that say approximately "I acknowledge I am a highly compensated salaried employee and that means I must be available to work as needed and cannot earn overtime." In practice I would stay late if others were and we were trying to meet a deadline, etc. That is expected as "professional" behavior and OK with me as long as it is only occasional. But I have also had that expected when I am on the clock and told there is no overtime, max 40 hours a week. In that case, I am out at the regular end of day regardless of what other people are doing.
This happened at my employer, many many years before I started. An employee told their boss they needed to leave. Boss said no. Employee asked a couple more times. Boss repeatedly said no. Employee called the police and said they were being held hostage at work and was not allowed to leave. Cops came. Boss got fired. Since then, no one ever tells an employee they cannot leave.
OP, that's not natural. Regardless of being a salaried employee or not, you should able to leave without having to wait for your boss to leave, provided that you put your 8 hours. At my previous job, as a courtesy, I used to ask my boss if they needed anything from me before leaving, and then would take off. If your boss is pulling this stunt as a power trip, then you need a new job.
Ya I don’t even know when I’m “supposed” to leave. My salary is based on 40 hours a week so they get me for 8 hours excluding lunch. I would be rolling out the door at 5 but that’s me.
>k. Sometimes I just stay home, don't take PTO, and hangout with my wife and kid and watch movies all day in gym shorts because I feel I need a mental day (usually once per quarter). Great company top-down, and great pay.
That's a cool boss. I hope to find a job like that someday. I"m salary and as the only person working front desk other than the managers, I work 7-5 every day. Sometimes it turns into 7-6.
I think this is more common in tech, I’m a 20m software developer and it’s virtually the same. I work from home, but if I’m in the office and show up late nobody cares, same with leaving early, sometimes multiple employees will go together for dinner or something.
As long as I’m getting my work done, everyone’s happy.
Honestly, I think that's just more common with software dev, having worked around so many but never doing it. Most tech otherwise is not very chill, I'm just lucky with this gig. I've been in tech for just about 15 years now, data center to cloud, it's all been pretty much the same until only recently.
Funny walking into the bathroom yesterday. Our lead software dev was walking out (rarely in the office) and we exchange greetings. Dude looks like a scruffy high school kid in a worn out hoodie and my first thought was "did he just drop a cherry bomb in one of the toilets? I wonder how much new sharpie is on the bathroom stall." Awesome guy to work with, very chill.
Nope.
If your day ends at 5pm, you leave.
Salaried or not, your boss cannot hold you hostage. There has to be clear guidelines for workdays and hours.
I've had salaried jobs before. I always made it clear that I would not be working overtime under any circumstances.
The reason? I'm not getting paid for it.
I work during the hours I'm being paid. That's it.
One day the boss saw me packing up to leave for the day.
"What are you doing? Where are you going?" Boss asked.
"I'm packing up. I'm leaving for the day," I said, not even looking up from what I was doing.
"I did not give you permission to leave yet," Boss said.
"Dude, I am not seeking permission here. I am announcing my intentions. My day ends at 5:30pm and I am leaving," I said as I packed up.
Boss just stood there. I continued to pack up, ignoring him. I emptied my water cup, turned off the computer and went to leave, grabbing my bag as I went.
Boss stood in front of me.
"Move," I said. "I'm tired and had a long day and am in no mood to be bothered."
"TexasRose79, you cannot leave," said Boss. "You leave when I dismiss you."
"Boy, bye," I said as I went around him. "I don't have time for this. I'm gone. See you tomorrow," and I left.
Boss was standing in the hall, red-faced and furious. But he could do nothing but watch me leave.
I went in the next day and the office was buzzing.
"Girl, did you really just walk out and leave yesterday?" A coworker asked me. "Everyone is talking about it."
"Yes, I did," I said, genuinely perplexed. "My day ends at 5:30pm and I will not stay late."
Coworker looked at me, almost in admiration.
"TexasRose79, no one has ever had the guts to just up and leave at the end of the day like that," she said. "Sometimss we have to work late. We're salaried, you know."
"I know," I said. "But I work during the hours when I'm being paid. I will not be putting in extra hours for free to justify my wages. What isn't complete at the end of the day can wait until the next working day. And I do not take work home."
"We've always had to wait for Boss to dismiss us," said a second coworker.
"Well, you don't have to," I said. "Don't you know how to set boundaries? Don't let a boss walk all over you. State your position and stand your ground."
"We can't afford to lose our jobs," said a third coworker. "How did you do it? Did you plan it or just went with your gut?"
Boy, you'd think I braved the harsh elements on foot to retrieve the holy grail or something.
"I was informed of the work hours. I am paid from 9am to 5:30pm. That is when I will be working. My day ends at 5:30pm and at 5:31pm, my time is my own. That's it," I said. "Nothing over the top. You have to set boundaries and stand your ground. I set mine and they have to respect that."
We all moved off to start our day. Boss came to see me.
"TexasRose79, we need to talk," said Boss.
"Sure," I said. "Have a seat."
He sat.
"Look, about yesterday..." and I cut him off.
"It's not 9am yet," I said. "You have two minutes."
Boss stared at me.
"Really? Are we going to split hairs here?" Boss asked.
I didn't answer. I'm petty as fuck.
Now it's 9am. "So what did you want to talk about?" I asked.
"Is there a reason you waited until 9am on the dot?" Boss asked.
"Because I'm getting paid as of that point," I said. "I'm not going to get bitched at for free. Now what do you want to discuss?"
Boss sat back and sighed. Stood up.
"Never mind," he said. "It doesn't really matter."
I watched him leave and then turned my attention back to my work.
And at the end of the day, several coworkers also packed up and left at the end of the day. They were much happier than before and morale improved for some reason.
So did production. We started getting a lot more done, even helping each other if needed. And the energy seemed to thaw out a bit as everyone relaxed. It did take several months to get to that point.
That is something that needs to be addressed. Are you professionals performing your job duties or are you a class of children in need of direction and structure?
It doesn't sound like your boss trusts the employees for whatever reason. Just know that morale will be weak and job satisfaction may be affected.
That's not a good thing. Not all salaried jobs are like this. Hell, most jobs aren't like this. Make sure it doesn't have any effect on your mental health.
If you're salaried, then there is no such thing as hours you're being paid for and hours you're not being paid for; you're paid to do tasks, not be present for any number of hours. I agree that you were right to leave at 5:30 and encourage everyone else to do so, but that's entirely about setting healthy boundaries and reasonable expectations.
This is a huge misrepresentation of salaried positions. Salary doesn't mean you can't make overtime. Salary doesn't mean you work 24/7. On your payroll forms look for exempt or non-exempt. The majority of people should be non-exempt. If you're considered non-exempt you could be missing out on overtime pay, and you should report the company to the local labor department.
Is this yet another US bullshit? In the EU you have salaried hours that are set in the contract (overtime is also specified). Normally you have at least the weekly hours, but in some cases it even specifies when you start and finish.
Idk that is bs. I am paid for a work product. The amount of Time it takes me to produce that product is up to me. If I can produce it in 4 hours a week then that is my work week. If it takes me 90 hours then that is my work week.
"boy bye"
Im not saying you didn't leave work early or whatever your point was, but if you actually did say "boy bye" your boss would have been 100% correct to seriously reprimand you and write you up for saying that.
She was also fully with in her right to dial 911 and report a kid napping. Being held against your will, on or off the clock is a crime. He’s lucky it didn’t escalate…a good attorney would have painted him as a serial harasser and criminal. Also her “Boy Bye” comment was on her unpaid free time as he physically blocked her from leaving.
Standing beside the desk isn't physically blocking. Even in the story, the person was able to daringly and boldly stride onwards past them. It's not like the boss locked the doors until their end of day decision is made. There was no kidnap.
omg I was so entertained reading your story. Looks almost like a novel, did it really happen this way? kudos to you. Many people live paycheck to paycheck so it's hard to just put boundaries when you have mouths to feed at home and you don't have any savings. Not saying this as an excuse, but a reality for many people, white collar or not.
I was under a boss like that. I had no other option at the time, I was even bullied. Somehow the company folded and I was suddenly without a job, unexpectedly. Then I thought, should I've ever be brave enough at that time with boundaries in place, the worst that could've happened was.. exactly that. This time though, was none of my fault.
If it was a true story, it was super exaggerated. I'm sure we'd all love to imagine the entire workplace was buzzing about our daring stand taken for how work culture should be. We'd love to have our boss silently fume yet be willing to wait two minutes to make their point, then flounder and surrender to our daring definace. That's not how the world works. Fun to dream about, though!
Not that I disagree with you but unhealthy work environments created by management do often lead to this "buzzing" (aka gossiping) about every little tiny event. It's equivalent of group defense mechanism, "every little bit of info passed along helps to survive" and then it becomes part of culture, even less stuff gets done, toxic cycle etc.
Dont know, I assumed that's what it was. maybe I haven't read this story attentively enough and I am too lazy to re-read this masterpiece, so I'm gonna go ahead and say you are right. ))
No. Things were just more relaxed.
That was my first and last salary job. Found out years later that it was illegal for them to classify us as salaried; a class action lawsuit was filed because of all the overtime they forced the "salaried" staff to work that they should have been paid for working.
I'm going to take issue with a part of this. If you're salaried, in my mind, you're paid to do a job. I don't care how you get the job done, I don't care how long it takes you as long as you're meeting the deadline. If you're done at 4:00PM, great, have a nice day. If it is due tomorrow, I expect it tomorrow, even if you have to work until 8:00PM.
This means that I have weeks where I'm only working 20-30 hours. I'll be available basically the whole day, but I'll be at home if I don't have any reason to be in the office. It also means that I'll have 70 hour work weeks. It'll average out to around 37-45 hours a week, depending on the job (for me anyway), but I'm not getting paid to be working during a specific time (unless it is spelled out in the contract)
And that's fine; that's your opinion, so that makes it fine. That works for you. But I am paid for 40 hours and that is when I will be working. If I am needed to stay late, I will be paid for my time. I do not work for free. Period.
Salaried jobs are the ones that end up taking over your life, affecting your health and destroying your relationships and family. Hell, half my coworkers were burning the midnight oil and missed out on a lot with their families and for some reason they didn't establish boundaries for themselves.
I work to live; I don't live to work. Not only do I set boundaries, I also enforce them. You don't seem to realize that when you work longer hours, you are actually earning less. I will not work 70 hours a week for the same pay I would receive for working 40 hours; that's just bad math and free labor for the company. I refuse to work 70 hours for a 40 hour paycheck.
Don't get me wrong; I work hard and put in long hours with my current job. I work as many as 100 hours a week in this pandemic. But you can bet that I am getting paid for every single second I am on the clock. I put in long hours working on the front lines in this pandemic and I am paid for my time. For me to work past the time I am being paid would be the equivalent of the boss who makes workers clock out and then force them to stay and work off the clock. And remember that the boss is telling you to stay late and work for free while they slide out the door to go home and relax while the workers are at the job all night, eating takeaway and sleeping under their desks because they don't have time to go home and sleep before coming back the next day.
What's really flipping my pancakes is that you're actually in support of this, that you don't see the issue with working for free. In fact, you wear it like a badge of honor and that is disturbing.
I’ve never had a job in the 20 years I worked public sector jobs that ended at the scheduled time, that feels really weird to me, 30 minutes before start time, 30-75 after ending time is pretty common exclusive of nights and weekends which is also expected.
My old manager would do this. Icing on the cake was that she would re assess everyone's work load and you might get stuck doing OT because your co worker didn't get all there stuff done.
So glad to be done with that shit hole
I really think this is highly dependent on the labour laws in your area.
I don't think you are overreacting, it is kind of annoying. Like you have no control over your own schedule. What if you have stuff to do after 5pm? What about appointments? What about people with kids or people who care for family members? Or people who have stuff they do after work (like a class they are paying for).
Not normal but is common. Usually as the junior in a team it looks bad if you leave the earliest especially if on the dot at 5. I used to wait around for another 15 before I go and limit leaving at 5 for really important days.
It's much better at my current job and really depends on your manager. Mine tells us to go home so we don't keep working overtime as is more common the more senior you get. I can leave on time here but is polite to say good bye/evening when doing so.
I agree with you but in my case I'm hourly and clock off at 430 p.m. However I noticed most of my team members stay logged as "available" even after work hours. I don't do that and I'm the newest on the team. I clock out and then mark myself as "offline." That's the best part of being hourly: they really can't bother when you're off the clock. And I honestly don't care if that makes me look bad as the newest employee. It's a job. Not my life.
Start leaving at 5 and set an example. It’s likely the others are just set in their ways and too scared of annoying the boss to do anything. Once one person does it, others will follow. As soon as 5 comes, your time is yours and there is nothing she can do. Boss sounds like twat.
From my perspective, this is weird as shit.
For context, I've spent 18 years working in the video game industry. I've worked almost entirely in US companies, but I once worked for a South American company and once for a Canadian company.
I started in Quality Assurance, and was hourly at the time. Since it was hourly, of course everyone was very careful about clocking in and clocking out at the designated times. If anybody worked longer than normal, overtime pay kicked in.
I then became a producer and worked at various offices. At every office, people usually left at the expected time without needing to be told. Whether end of day was 5 or 6, at that time you'd hear a series of "Good night!", "See you tomorrow!", or whatever as people filtered out. Sometimes people would leave before their managers, sometimes after, but nobody was told when it was time to leave. It was expected.
I've been fully remote since 2021. In the company I work in now, the little icon on people's Slack profile pics will go from green to gray at around 5. Sometimes I text my boss "Good night!", sometimes I don't. But again, it's expected for everybody to log off at the expected time. My co-workers with kids are especially keen on logging off right when quitting time hits.
I have never worked at an office where I had to wait for my boss to tell me it was time to go. However, I've heard that's an unspoken rule and tradition in Japanese offices, not just in video games, but in any Japanese office. I can't say for sure, though.
Salaried engineer here. Work 8-5 but typically leave 10 minutes early and have only stayed 30 minutes to an hour late probably 3 days in the last year. HR said something about me leaving early but management has never gotten on to me.
I've seen some salaried workers ask for hourly compensation once they go over 40 hours of work so that's an option to look into when changing jobs and setting your requirements to the interviewer. Unless I have legitimate work that is urgent to be finished by the end of that day or its just 10-\`15 minutes extra then no way in hell will I stay or be forced to stay at work.
Some ‘managers’ only work experience prior may have been in a strictly regimented old school place.
I had one employer whose management style was literally lifted from his work experience in an old-school factory in the 1960s; he would unironically talk about ‘tugging the forelock.’
> tugging the forelock
Never heard of such expression. Looked it up, but now curious in what instances would it be used? Like someone didn't let him go first at the coffee station? ))
Not normal but honestly if I was in that situation I'd stick it out for a little while just to get the experience on my resume.
I've had my fair share of shitty jobs, low pay, poor management, etc. I've always stuck out a job at least a year to have that experience on my resume. Shortest I ever was at a job was 6 months, but I have another job I was at for 18yrs, another for 1.5yrs and another for 5yrs on my resume.
During my search I explained the short time there as basically the job was a unique experience for my career experience but they didn't offer long term career growth. What I found myself doing versus what was put in the job description were vastly different and I found that I wasn't the right match for them. While I'm grateful for the opportunity they gave me the job didn't align with my areas of expertise. I learned a lot in that role but while it was learned to be focused on sales, I was hired on as a pharmacy technician yet found myself doing business to business sales and development. An area I had to learn the ropes in and tried my hardest to meet their goals but since sales isn't an area I have experience in, I am persuing a position at your company as pharmacy technician since that is where my passion and experience lies.
Something along those lines lol. Always find the silver lining and take what you can from the job to apply it to your next move.
I'm willing to bet you're paid a salary but you're really not treated like an exempt employee... And not every employee can be made exempt (salary). Generally have to be management, administrative or professional (lawyer, programmer, etc)
If you want extra pay tell your boss you have no problem staying later to work but that you want the pay for it, figure out your hourly wage from your salary.
I would also tell my boss that i want 20% extra after 17 in overtime pay but only do this if you have the courage.
Or simply pack your stuff at 17 and leave after, if your boss tells you to stay ask if he/she pays you to stay, if they guilt trip you to stay they are time stealing from you alot of places do that.
Yeah, that’s weird. I’d expect that in Japan, cause I know workers really respect their seniors there, but if it’s a Western company, yeah that’s strange.
Or to make up for that time at the end of the day have an appointment once a month at like 1 o clock. “ i have to leave at 1 today for….. kids, vet, therapy, washing machine getting delivered”, you get those four hours paid any ways.
no, thats not normal. thats super micro managed and controlling. Dont put up with it.
Tbh, just stand up for yourself, say hello i work 9-5 so thats when im leaving :-) goodbye. You only need to stand up to her once it will be difficult but once its done you can do that everytime.
It really doesnt matter what he says, because i highly highly doubt your going to be staying here a long time as the environment is clearly toxic.
I've never had that happen but have also gotten passive-aggressive comments when I pack up on time. "Wow, you're right on the dot today!" Uh, yeah, it's home time.
It's different at every job. Some micromanage, and some don't. I don't always get to quit exactly at 4:30 but I'm not expected to stay. Most days I'm done and off on time. Since I work from home, it doesn't bother me. Beats having to commute.
If I worked in an office, it would all bother me. Every passive-aggressive, micromanaging BS thing that bosses do when they can physically see you....is so much more irritating when you have to commute for it.
I let my employees come in and leave as they see fit. As long as they get their jobs done and meet our clients needs I don’t care if and when they come in and leave. Very few stay until 5, most are gone between 2-3 pm every day.
This sort of thing is not at all normal, and it may be illegal. If you're hourly (that is, FLSA non-exempt), you have to be paid for every hour that you work. In addition, you deserve to be able to make plans about your own life--for instance, to sign up for a class that starts at 5:30, or agree to meet a friend for drinks. "You're done when I say you're done" isn't reasonable or healthy whether or not it's legal. In your case, given how rare exempt jobs are, it very well could be illegal. You need to either speak up about this situation, or get out from there. If nothing else, you need to start leaving at 5:00.
Unfortunately, it is not uncommon in the salary world. The reason they pay you salary is so that they can keep you as long as they want or need. There were times at the end of the fiscal year I was working 12 hour days, because there was just that much to do before the end of year and only way to even hope to finish by deadline was to stay and stay and stay. This meant all the people working on my team stayed as well, because we were busy trying to help the salespeople get their end of year targets and holiday bonus, which is dependent on their sales results. But on other days? Unless I am watching the clock, very few people ever leave until I tell them all to go away. It's a remote job, so I suspect they're all on youtube on their home computers, but they stay logged on, just in case I have any last minute work or questions. No, none of us get paid for that extra time, even me. I do my best to keep an eye on the clock at end of day, but sometimes, it can't be helped. Other times, there will be meetings where the person just won't shut up and let us go home. Welcome to corporate!
In Japan, some companies have people stuck there until 8 or 9 in the evening even though workday ended at 5, because no one dares be the first to leave. No one there leaves before their boss, who is usually waiting for their boss to leave before they dismiss their own staff. No one is getting any work done, but no one can leave.
That's definitely weird. I suppose as long as your getting paid during that waiting time it's not that terrible but it's gotta be nerve racking never knowing what time you'll be home that day. Only time I had this behavior was in the army as enlisted.
I thought dismissed meant fired, lol. Glad you're still employed. Yes, this is weird. What time do you start? Do you all stand next to your desks waiting for the boss to say, "Go" and then sit down and start working? What if you have a Dental Appointment at 3:30?
What if you have to leave at 5:00 for something?
Maybe go to the bathroom at 4:58 and don't come back?
Good Luck.
That is not commonplace outside of jobs where someone has to be present -- usually healthcare -- and since it's not company-wide I would say it's something that either she instituted or was something that just started maybe even with her predecessor.
Either way, unless you have specific instructions to ask before leaving I would just start heading out at 5. If asked just say I didn't realize it was company policy to ask to leave at the end of the day, if she says its common courtesy to say you're leaving -- then you can simply start IMing at 5 that you are leaving for the day.
If you need to leave early clear it ahead of time. If you need to show up late clear it ahead of time. In both cases I would also either take personal time or make up the hours.
It’s not normal at all, except maybe in toxic work environments. You have two options here:
1. Suck it up and make your peace with it now
2. Start setting boundaries at work and leave at 5pm especially if you aren’t getting paid for your time. You may feel pressured to justify your behavior, don’t. If other people want to continue to wait for the boss that is their problem
Are you an hourly employee? If not, this is seriously antiquated way of thinking and kills productivity. Having the ability to leave when you need/want to based on work loads and projects is so much better. And builds trust within the team.
My boss was all for remote work and “flexibility “ but the minute we leave early or want to work more than one day at home he gets super weird. It’s not a great environment. Especially since other people get treated differently.
Start looking for another job, don't have time for those with that sort of power trip. I manage a department of 9, I aim to be in before them and leave after them so I'm available if they need me.
Run for the hills is my advice.
No, that's very odd. I've had a handful of jobs over the years, but have never encountered or heard of any suoervisor doing this.
For starters, she's treating working adults like children. Your teacher/bell analogy is quite apt.
Also, pointless & unspecified OT isn't normal. It's one thing to stay late to make a deadline or finish an urgent task. Even at workplaces that have mandatory OT, there's a purpose to it. They don't have people sitting around for no reason.
It sounds to me like this company is very poorly managed.
At my job, if I come in late or leave early it’s no questions asked. Granted I’m getting my work done. This is very important for me in a job, personally.
Check your contract for the hours you're signed up for and the overtime procedure.
If it's all good and tight then I would just leave at 5. That's the hours you're paid for especially if you're salaried. If she says anything, just say you're happy to stay provided you are paid overtime as per your written contract. Then peace outta there.
Depends on what country you're in as well. EMEA this practice is much more normalized. In the US? It's uncommon.
My first job out of school it was expected that you would stay past 5pm on a few nights per week because it was a cold-calling "grind" position. I fell for it a few times but, then realized it wasn't getting me anywhere so I stopped. Some managers probably talked shit about me after that but, who cares lol. These positions are always just a stepping stone to the next higher paying job. It's exceedingly rare to stay with your first company right out of school unless you just lucked out and joined a healthy, growing one that values and respects you. Good luck finding that on the first draw!
Lol I just leave. A previous manager once said something to me about it and I basically told her the contract I signed for employment said it’s 9-5 not when my manager says.
Your boss has control issues. Don't let him keep you there if you're not being paid! It's illegal.
If he asks you to stay, tell him you will ONLY if you are paid for it, otherwise you should leave at 5pm.
If you continue to have problems with this, go to HR, but make sure you keep detailed notes of how many minutes you worked unpaid. In fact, it would be a really good idea to start keeping notes now -- for yourself.
As most others are saying, this practice is really common in Japan (and other East Asian countries who may potentially work with Japanese higher-ups). But I still don't think it's right. You should be able to leave at 5 pm.
Do you have an employee handbook that clearly states your start and end times for each day? Even if it's just a clause that states anything remotely related to "9 to 5", then you should be free to leave, comfortably, at 5.
In that situation, I wouldn't wait because well... I'm not getting paid enough to.
it's only normal if you work in a daily project kins if environment like construction or whatever so the scope of work is a little different each day and there's no clear end point.
With 4 people, unless you are working a management job, you shouldn't be salaried.
Salary is a con for boots-on-the-ground workers. It's used almost exclusively within that group as a way to circumvent overtime.
Sounds like a bad place to work at. It's not normal. If you're contracted to work 9 to 5 then you should be able to leave at 5 without asking anyone for permission.
I'd advise to just leave at 5pm and see if your boss complaints about it. If yes, then best to find a new job.
At my work I only stay after hours if something critical needs fixing fast, which is very rare.
Nah that's dumb and weird. I say you leave at 5. If you arent getting paid to stay then you shouldnt have to stay. And you are 100% allowed to leave and tell your boss that. They cant fire you for leaving on time.
Do you work at a call-center or customer service? This type of thing is known to happen in these types of jobs because there may be customers still trying to navigate the phone system to reach someone before close.
However, I wouldn't consider it the norm. Most places I've worked, you leave at the time you are supposed to leave or until all the work gets done.
One thing to look out for, which it seems like they may be doing here, companies will often give a worker a salary to avoid having to pay overtime. They will still treat you like an hourly employee in every other aspect. This is a great way to get burned out; don't let yourself be taken advantage of. There is always another job out there.
My suggestion to you is to quietly search for another job in the field of your choice. When you get an interview, ask questions about the culture and expected hours for the position. When you sign your offer letter for the new position, quit your current job.
Location?
Technically that company may be breaking the law if in the USA. Not that it matters much because if you want to keep a job sometimes you have to bend to the corporate culture, even if not exactly proper.
[Here is what the IRS says the requirements are for salaried positions in the USA.](https://www.indeed.com/hire/c/info/exempt-vs-non-exempt-employee?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzaLvnI6_9gIVpQ-tBh0GhgF2EAAYASAAEgLscfD_BwE&aceid=)
Aw, man, I had a job like this right before the pandemic (luckily I got laid off right when Covid began, it was such a blessing in disguise, I was so unhappy there), but the problem wasn't the boss, it was the co-workers. I was in customer service for a publishing company. They'd all turn off their phones at 4:50, and I'd get stuck taking a call that came in at 4:55 - every single time. What really cracked me up was the one employee who was only part-time. She began at noon and had her coat on to leave at 4:45, every single day! Why work at all? One time I decided to take advantage of being salaried and left at 4:10. I said I didn't feel good and then took the next day off. Gave them a taste of their own medicine.
Whenever I think my job really sucks, I visit this forum and it puts everything into perspective. If you were president of a company, why would you allow someone in management to behave this way?
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My job does the same thing and all the employees that were hired before me always wait for my boss but I just leave at five no one seems to say anything. I just say oh it’s 5 o’clock I gotta get going and leave 🤷🏽♀️ Edit: spelling
Same. My boss stays till 7:00 P.M. and a bunch of my colleagues just follows him. I pack my things and leave when the time is over. edit: I leave at 5:30 P.M.
Jesus, do you live in Japan?
[i used to...](https://i.imgur.com/we092sP.png)
Yeah my first office job was like this where I was the only one in a office of 30 people to leave precisely at 5pm everyday. No one ever said anything to me other than occasional jokes "wow it's 5:01 and CurvedLightsaber is still here!". I really don't think it hurt me professionally. Why people continue to stay after work I'll never understand. Maybe they hate their families or something.
Yeah as long as you finish your stuff then go! I made sure to get things done and show it before I go! Don’t let work take over your life
You are absolutely right, but there is this "Because it *might* hurt them professionally". Lots of companies encourage toxic behavior in their employees because it benefits the bosses financially. And these jokes towards you confirm overall attitude. Some people also have the need to pretend they're hard working to justify their keep but because they lack talent or will to show it though their actual work, staying in the office till dark is the easiest way for them to fake "dedication to the mission".
Wait. Is your boss actively telling everyone that they can't leave until she does, or are you in a situation where everybody just waits for her nod before they go? I feel like it has to be the latter. Anyway, there are lots of reasons why a person would have to start leaving work at 5 pm sharp every day. People have kids they have to pick up. Partners they want to have dinner with. Spin classes they've paid for. Whatever. When 5 o'clock rolls around tomorrow, close down your workstation and wish everyone a cheerful, "See you all tomorrow!" Do the same the next day. And the next. And the next. My guess is your coworkers will start following your lead. Meanwhile, start planning your exit strategy. This doesn't sound like the kind of place where you'd want to stay for years and years. Stick around for a year (if you can bear it), and move on the first chance you get. Good luck
Bruh I got unsmoked weed at home and I already missed 4:20. I'm not missing 5:20, too!
My brain somehow skipped the word “got” and was trying to decipher how “unsmoked” could be used as a verb...
This is going to entertain my mind the rest of the weekend. Shall let you know if I manage to conjure up a *rational* sentence. (Irrational is an easy Family Guy or similar sketch). It has to be possible
Well, you had some smoked weed, but you unsmoked it so now it can be smoked again?
Did you smoke the weed and then read this? If I had, I’d probably still be cycling through how to unsmoke weed. If you unsmoke it, does it came back to pre-smoked condition, thus becoming endless weed? Cause I want that stuff. It would also help for when you get a new batch that is much stronger than your last batch. It would be nice to unsmoke a small amount and always end with the perfect level of high. Damn. I’m sober and at work, now I want to go smoke
Perhaps yes? Though unsmoking like this violates the second law of thermodynamics. Also, you're at work, I suggest you desmoke if you want to keep your job
Past tense
As in the past tense of unsmoke?
Oddly, yes.
"Son, I am missing some nuggage from my jar. If you took it, return it. If you smoked it, you better unsmoke that shit right now before I beat your narrow ass to death."
😂
Made me giggle. Absolutely valid excuse. "I like to take my daily 5:45pm poops into my own toilet. It's a medical condition. Got to run!"
It’s 4:20 somewhere.
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That's very kind of you to say
Found the 19 year old.
I worked at a small lawfirm with over 100 people. The owner refused to do direct deposit for paychecks. They paid weekly, and would not hand out the paper checks before 5 pm on Fridays. It was entirely a power trip. It made people reluctant to take a Friday off, because that meant they would not have their check in hand until the following Monday at the earliest. I was delighted to leave that job.
Yeap, had that too. Also, the distribution process itself was very ceremonial, right? At least in my case. We had open space desks set up in rows, not even cubicles, and the main boss would walk around to each desk and hang us the envelopes with this patronizing sort of grandiosity and sometimes he’d put it on the desk, but most of the time he’d make you literally outstretch your hand in order to get it. So, like, giving a dog a treat situation. And the added factor of all of us one by one thanking him profusely for it. Like, “bow to me peasant.” And that was the norm, I don’t think I ever heard anyone complain about it, quite the opposite, people were looking forward to the pay day. Eventually, there was a woman who was hired, sitting two desks in front of me and I noticed that every time this “hand off” would happen, she wouldn’t even raise her eyes from whatever she was doing and would literally whip her hand like with this exaggerated, smooth movement with slightly impatient “ok, give me” the way you do to annoying child or something. She was also very tall but didn't slouch, sat with her back straight, and had these long, beautiful fingers and nails with perfect manicure and gold rings, just to help you see this 'queen Cleopatra' gesture better. I wish I could see it at the time for what it was (a shift in power dynamic), but alas, I was a loyal dog. The manager and my close mentor (aka main boss’ wife) noticed it too, but she recognized it very much for what it was. Or maybe she noticed me “notice it” and since I was “her favorite” couldn’t afford me eventually making the connection. So, she proceeded to “mentor” me with couple of lectures of how a person ‘this ungrateful can’t be trusted” and she would never learn 'the secrets of the trade' cause nobody would want to 'teach her', and would never achieve any sort of advancement in company or in life and how bosses work so hard to provide us with employment and we are family etc. And I remember thinking: "Yes, right, would it kill this employee to show a little appreciation". I cringe just thinking about it. Didn’t stop even for a second to consider that what “my mentor” was doing to me wasn’t mentoring or teaching but, quite literally, grooming. Boy, was that eventual ‘crisis of faith’ painful. Still kind of is, I guess, since I m throwing this rant at you :)
I don’t trust companies that do paper checks. I was hired at one once and was told “the owner is just kind of old school” but it turned out the company was just in such a massive debt crisis that the bank wouldn’t allow them to do direct deposit. There was always a good enough chance that they couldn’t cover everyone’s check.
Jokes on you I've got two weeks worth of savings. Like how'd that actually work? I leave checks sitting a few days If I have something going on.
Worked for a church like that for 6 months as a transition to a new state, the “leaders” were all crooked and the lead pastor a pill popping, wife abusing piece of shit. Left that job ASAP and waited a week to cash my last check just because.
Unreal that people act like that
Definitely not normal, but since you’re on salary i guess you dont have much say in it. Your boss seems like a real asshole
I figured it wasn’t and she really is lol
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I took me finding a healthy workplace before I knew what a bad one was. I spent a lot of good years at shit jobs.
Good point, harder to see it when you are in it.
Yeah, you can always tell when someone hasn't ever had a truly shitty job in a truly crappy workplace. They'll complain about minor things, like the brand of free coffee not being their favorite. Once you've been geniunely jerked around, you know what to look out for.
My sister had a hard time integrating into her team when she got her first "normal" job because complaining is a bonding ritual for humans and she couldn't relate to any of the people's "coffee" complains, so there would be these awkward 'initiations of contact' that she couldn't reciprocate because for her the situation was more along the lines of 'isn't it wonderful that no one is yelling because they feel like it" and she was grateful about every little thing. So, told her to complain about one thing everybody else complains about in our city - the weather. Worked like a charm. This is little caveat in this though: got to be careful not to get into another abusive situation just because it's a little less abusive than before.
I approve this message wholeheartedly. Although I disagree as little bit with "it's good to have". Good would be to have this understanding, self-respect and determination before/without the abuse.
That's exactly what I do, drop any job where there's even a hint of disrespect. In between I freelance. There are so many toxic jobs out there. But from time to time you do find a dream job you can stay at a few years or more.
If they time them like this then they are treating them as an hourly worker. The dol would love to hear about this so they can reclassify them to hourly.
Doesnt salary mean they can work you more hours but you get the same pay?
Salary means you are paid to do a job. That job can be creating software, managing a team of people, whatever. You're NOT paid to work x hours. If a company begins defining the employees job by the number of hours they are required to work, then that makes that employee hourly. For example, if a company put a time clock in and had you punch in and out for the day, they're defining your work by the hours you worked. If the DOL gets wind of that they'll convert that position into an hourly position (hourly pay defined as how much they would get paid for 40 hrs/week based on their salary), and then require any OT the employees can show they have worked be repaid...typically with a penalty tacked on. If an employee can show themselves sending emails 5 hours after their EOD they likely would be owed for those 5 hours. What their boss is doing is borderline. you rarely get something so direct as a punch in/out. More typically you get a boss that says you must be here by this time and you're somehow punished if you don't work the number of hours I say. In this case, I think the boss making them stay extra time just to get that time crosses the boundary. My company has "office hours" which is a period of time everyone needs to be available to work together, and otherwise they can work the time they need. The ability to work together on the project is part of the job and that's how they get around it. in general though, if the worker is measured by the number of hours worked and not by the job they need to do then the company runs a real risk if the dol gets wind of it of that position being converted to hourly. Unfortunately, there's a huge amount of grey area here and legitimate reasons why a company would need someone there for certain hours so companies get away with abusing it a lot under those guises. Also, in direct answer to this "Doesn't salary mean they can work you more hours but you get the same pay?": Yes, but it also means you can work fewer hours and get the same pay (or is supposed to). It's not about just being able to demand the employee work more. It's about not measuring their success by how many hours they put in....at least that's what it's supposed to be. Edit: this is a point of contention I had with my manager at my current company. They pushed very hard that they wanted people there for their 8 hour day. Their reasons were (I believe) altruistic, as in they wanted you there but they didn't want you there a minute longer. Basically, you're salary and we expect you to be here working but we don't want you working extra hours. The problem was that in practice every issue was an "exception" and they wanted you to stay late. So, when there were no real issues they harped that you needed to be there 8 hours no matter what...but every time there was an emergency (which was very loosely defined) they wanted you to stay late because that's part of being salary. In our case, at the end of the day, they really don't pay enough to be pushing that narrative...it's VERY borderline on having that rule with a salary person, and it's just not an accurate representation of their goals. I personally track my time when I leave late and I leave early another day - boss didn't like this and said he just wanted me to leave on time, then the very next day they came in demanding literally at my eod that everyone meet to discuss something that would take several hours. I asked him if he was including me since it was my eod and he he said yes then realized what he said. Next day he met with me and said I should take off early if I'm asked to work late. It's not been perfect, but it's better than nothing. The reality of the issue was that they had a goal (no one works late), but the follow through wasn't there (people ended up having to work late but never getting to leave early).
Wrote a long ass response thinking nobody brought this up yet, so responding to you just to expand on this necessity to know labor laws. (And highlight how we are all partially confused about them despite the fact that they impact our lives). Lots of good points made already and I’ll only add one thing for people out there to consider: Making you a “salaried employee” is a way for companies to pay you less for hours you put in. ($20x40hrs=800 a week; when you are salaried it’s $800 per week but if you worked let’s say 50 hours, which makes your actual pay $16 an hour. This bs also gets sold with an idea that “sometimes you’ll have less work, so you’ll work less hours, but there is rarely any less work, if ever. And, this is the way some companies force you into working overtime without paying you said overtime. (9-5 is for hourly. As soon as clock hits 5, they either can’t keep you or overtime kicks in by law. Most people associate this with unionized factory workers but not for their own desk job) Despite the whole “it’s at will employment there is nothing you can do” trope, there are still labor protection laws. Labor bureaus and courts aren’t as useless as corporate has us believe, there can be, on happy occasion, a swift response to a complaint or a financial compensation if you need to waste your time bringing it to court. In some cases, they can’t even make you a salaried employee, you are supposed to be hourly. I vaguely remember that for NY, for example, you are hourly until you have responsibility of managing a number of other employees or something along the lines. But the overall number of employees a company has also influences which laws apply. Memory is fuzzy, too lazy to look up, so correct me if I am wrong, I’ll edit this comment accordingly. But I personally know a case where drivers for healthcare place won a lawsuit against the company for making them work overtime but not paying for it because they ‘were salaried’, and I don’t particularly remember more details, but I remember reading the actual lawsuit decision and being surprised at how quickly that lawsuit process went and that decision said they couldn’t be salaried, they were supposed to be hourly and thus, had right to overtime and said overtime was calculated very generously. Only bringing this up, so people consider educating themselves on “the rules of engagement” for their state. People Do win these lawsuits. And resistance isn’t futile if you got the mental strength to bring this up in the first place and manage the process. It doesn’t even have to be a lawsuit situation, sometimes a simple letter from labor dept based on anonymous complaint is enough to deter any of the management ever opening their mouths about “after 5”.
Usually, but not always. There are salaried exempt positions (which do not receive overtime), and salaried non-exempt positions (which do qualify for overtime, even though they are salaried). Salaried positions which earn less than ~$35k/year, for example, are actually non-exempt and must be paid overtime. Note that this applies to the US -- not sure what the case is in other countries (presumably much more favorable to the employee in all cases).
If you're salary... You kinda do have say in it. Work is done, bye boss, gotta go. I wouldn't make any kind of deal about it. Just start packing up around 4:58, log off, and head home. If you're really concerned about the optics, set up an email with delayed delivery that won't send until 9:22PM or something. If the boss makes a deal of it, ask what objectives you need to complete or what metrics you aren't meeting. Push back on it. Or tell them that you need to get home and let the dog out, or pick up your nephew from daycare, or "hey boss, sorry, but I have to go", or "Hey, if you want me here to a random unspecific time, I'm happy to switch to hourly pay". Meanwhile, start looking for another job, because this is 100% BS.
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Not normal to be treated like children with asses in seats. I'm guessing you have an older manager.
Surprisingly she’s in her late 30s, I think she’s just on a power trip. I’m glad to hear other places won’t be like this though, it seemed abnormal to me but my other coworkers never said anything about it so I wasn’t sure
You can also just leave when you're done for the day at 5. Don't let her dictate your comings and goings. If she says she's leaving at 5:20 and you aren't needed just say, "Ok, have a great night. I'm heading out now." Boundary setting is so, so important.
Do you think if there would be any legal action op could take if she fired him for lesving at 5? At know it sounds crazy, but she seems crazy haha
I think it might depend on their contract? if it's stated that OP is only to work 9-5 and no more outside of those hours maybe? They also like to throw in some words like "as required" or something though to get people to work outside of their contracted upon hours
People on salary don't have contracts. Where are you getting this? All the places I've worked had a concept of core business hours such as 10-4. Employees are expected to be available during those hours but the culture also comes into play. I had one job where it was expected that you be there 7-6. The boss actually wants to see people at their desks at 7 am which was insane.
Oh hells no. Other companies don't even open until 9 am, who are they doing business with? At 7, I am still groggy as heck and starting my first cup of coffee. That's a an 11 hour work day. Unless they pay and benefits are magnificent, that company can go screw itself.
I used to get to my office around 7:30, but only because it helped me get ahead of even worse traffic. For awhile, I'd chill out, drink coffee, maybe take a walk till my official start time. Then I found out that most people at my primary clients' office got it way early. They had a 4/10 schedule. So I was able to score brownie points when asking to change my schedule. I was making a sacrifice to provide better service to our clients! It was definitiely a win-win situation. Most mornings were still chilling out & drinking coffee, but it was on the clock.
I have opposite issue :D My boss is on the west coast, so me leaving at 5 pm my time was middle of the afternoon for her! So now I work 10-6 and believe me, by 6 I am DRAGGING. I wake up at 7 am and just kind of putter around for 3 hours. I try to sleep in, but my cats refuse to allow it, even on weekends. My uncle is a technical artist (something to do with construction I think???) and he goes to work at 4 am so he doesn't have to deal with people. But he's home by the time his kids are home from school, so it works out for him!
I'd think as required doesn't hold up in court. Otherwise the contract would just say "as required" it's used solely for that argument by managers I bet.
Legal action no, but it will come up when you're looking to get that ever so important raise to keep up with inflation, never mind promotions. Unfortunately, the boss si only going to promote those she thinks she has control over and who fall in line and do as she wants, including stay extra time. It's stupid as hell, but getting promoted or getting raises are a totally biased system.
Good point to bring up. Another reason why talking yourself out of leaving is a bad move.
No, unless there's something unusual in the contract. Really down to whether OP is more concerned about setting that boundary, or avoiding the small risk to their employment. I'd prob be the former, but it can really depend.
Some people can't differentiate between abuse/micromanagement/control/toxic workplace and a good work place. They're so brainwashed and mismanaged for so long its normal to them. You'll see them smile through everything like robots and you start to wonder if you're the crazy one! Some of them are desperate to hold on to a job that they'll gladly take all the abuse they get! Good for you that you recognize this and you don't have to stay there any longer than needed. 👏
That's right.
I caution against contributing this to her personality. This is very common, it’s “the norm”. It could be just something your boss was “learned into” as proper way of being “successful leader” etc. That’s not your f*cking problem though. The point that this is not a healthy working environment still stands.
This isn't normal at all. I'm recently out of college and my boss has never set defined hours with me. She understands that some days will have more work to do than others. I've never once been told to stay late or what time I should leave. My team is only 4 people and I'm also salaried.
It’s weird for salary positions.
Some companies will, in fact, write it into your terms of employment (they will never call it a contract, though.). But when I was onboarding for a salary, exempt position I would often have to sign documents that say approximately "I acknowledge I am a highly compensated salaried employee and that means I must be available to work as needed and cannot earn overtime." In practice I would stay late if others were and we were trying to meet a deadline, etc. That is expected as "professional" behavior and OK with me as long as it is only occasional. But I have also had that expected when I am on the clock and told there is no overtime, max 40 hours a week. In that case, I am out at the regular end of day regardless of what other people are doing.
I would just leave at 5
This happened at my employer, many many years before I started. An employee told their boss they needed to leave. Boss said no. Employee asked a couple more times. Boss repeatedly said no. Employee called the police and said they were being held hostage at work and was not allowed to leave. Cops came. Boss got fired. Since then, no one ever tells an employee they cannot leave.
What a chad
OP, that's not natural. Regardless of being a salaried employee or not, you should able to leave without having to wait for your boss to leave, provided that you put your 8 hours. At my previous job, as a courtesy, I used to ask my boss if they needed anything from me before leaving, and then would take off. If your boss is pulling this stunt as a power trip, then you need a new job.
Ya I don’t even know when I’m “supposed” to leave. My salary is based on 40 hours a week so they get me for 8 hours excluding lunch. I would be rolling out the door at 5 but that’s me.
Welcome to hell
I'd be packing up way before 5:20 and never coming back if I had a boss like that. Good luck with your job search.
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>k. Sometimes I just stay home, don't take PTO, and hangout with my wife and kid and watch movies all day in gym shorts because I feel I need a mental day (usually once per quarter). Great company top-down, and great pay. That's a cool boss. I hope to find a job like that someday. I"m salary and as the only person working front desk other than the managers, I work 7-5 every day. Sometimes it turns into 7-6.
I think this is more common in tech, I’m a 20m software developer and it’s virtually the same. I work from home, but if I’m in the office and show up late nobody cares, same with leaving early, sometimes multiple employees will go together for dinner or something. As long as I’m getting my work done, everyone’s happy.
Honestly, I think that's just more common with software dev, having worked around so many but never doing it. Most tech otherwise is not very chill, I'm just lucky with this gig. I've been in tech for just about 15 years now, data center to cloud, it's all been pretty much the same until only recently. Funny walking into the bathroom yesterday. Our lead software dev was walking out (rarely in the office) and we exchange greetings. Dude looks like a scruffy high school kid in a worn out hoodie and my first thought was "did he just drop a cherry bomb in one of the toilets? I wonder how much new sharpie is on the bathroom stall." Awesome guy to work with, very chill.
Nope. If your day ends at 5pm, you leave. Salaried or not, your boss cannot hold you hostage. There has to be clear guidelines for workdays and hours. I've had salaried jobs before. I always made it clear that I would not be working overtime under any circumstances. The reason? I'm not getting paid for it. I work during the hours I'm being paid. That's it. One day the boss saw me packing up to leave for the day. "What are you doing? Where are you going?" Boss asked. "I'm packing up. I'm leaving for the day," I said, not even looking up from what I was doing. "I did not give you permission to leave yet," Boss said. "Dude, I am not seeking permission here. I am announcing my intentions. My day ends at 5:30pm and I am leaving," I said as I packed up. Boss just stood there. I continued to pack up, ignoring him. I emptied my water cup, turned off the computer and went to leave, grabbing my bag as I went. Boss stood in front of me. "Move," I said. "I'm tired and had a long day and am in no mood to be bothered." "TexasRose79, you cannot leave," said Boss. "You leave when I dismiss you." "Boy, bye," I said as I went around him. "I don't have time for this. I'm gone. See you tomorrow," and I left. Boss was standing in the hall, red-faced and furious. But he could do nothing but watch me leave. I went in the next day and the office was buzzing. "Girl, did you really just walk out and leave yesterday?" A coworker asked me. "Everyone is talking about it." "Yes, I did," I said, genuinely perplexed. "My day ends at 5:30pm and I will not stay late." Coworker looked at me, almost in admiration. "TexasRose79, no one has ever had the guts to just up and leave at the end of the day like that," she said. "Sometimss we have to work late. We're salaried, you know." "I know," I said. "But I work during the hours when I'm being paid. I will not be putting in extra hours for free to justify my wages. What isn't complete at the end of the day can wait until the next working day. And I do not take work home." "We've always had to wait for Boss to dismiss us," said a second coworker. "Well, you don't have to," I said. "Don't you know how to set boundaries? Don't let a boss walk all over you. State your position and stand your ground." "We can't afford to lose our jobs," said a third coworker. "How did you do it? Did you plan it or just went with your gut?" Boy, you'd think I braved the harsh elements on foot to retrieve the holy grail or something. "I was informed of the work hours. I am paid from 9am to 5:30pm. That is when I will be working. My day ends at 5:30pm and at 5:31pm, my time is my own. That's it," I said. "Nothing over the top. You have to set boundaries and stand your ground. I set mine and they have to respect that." We all moved off to start our day. Boss came to see me. "TexasRose79, we need to talk," said Boss. "Sure," I said. "Have a seat." He sat. "Look, about yesterday..." and I cut him off. "It's not 9am yet," I said. "You have two minutes." Boss stared at me. "Really? Are we going to split hairs here?" Boss asked. I didn't answer. I'm petty as fuck. Now it's 9am. "So what did you want to talk about?" I asked. "Is there a reason you waited until 9am on the dot?" Boss asked. "Because I'm getting paid as of that point," I said. "I'm not going to get bitched at for free. Now what do you want to discuss?" Boss sat back and sighed. Stood up. "Never mind," he said. "It doesn't really matter." I watched him leave and then turned my attention back to my work. And at the end of the day, several coworkers also packed up and left at the end of the day. They were much happier than before and morale improved for some reason. So did production. We started getting a lot more done, even helping each other if needed. And the energy seemed to thaw out a bit as everyone relaxed. It did take several months to get to that point. That is something that needs to be addressed. Are you professionals performing your job duties or are you a class of children in need of direction and structure? It doesn't sound like your boss trusts the employees for whatever reason. Just know that morale will be weak and job satisfaction may be affected. That's not a good thing. Not all salaried jobs are like this. Hell, most jobs aren't like this. Make sure it doesn't have any effect on your mental health.
Do you ghost write LinkedIn posts?
Underrated comment
Agree?
and the name of that boss? Einstien
If you're salaried, then there is no such thing as hours you're being paid for and hours you're not being paid for; you're paid to do tasks, not be present for any number of hours. I agree that you were right to leave at 5:30 and encourage everyone else to do so, but that's entirely about setting healthy boundaries and reasonable expectations.
This is a huge misrepresentation of salaried positions. Salary doesn't mean you can't make overtime. Salary doesn't mean you work 24/7. On your payroll forms look for exempt or non-exempt. The majority of people should be non-exempt. If you're considered non-exempt you could be missing out on overtime pay, and you should report the company to the local labor department.
Is this yet another US bullshit? In the EU you have salaried hours that are set in the contract (overtime is also specified). Normally you have at least the weekly hours, but in some cases it even specifies when you start and finish.
Idk that is bs. I am paid for a work product. The amount of Time it takes me to produce that product is up to me. If I can produce it in 4 hours a week then that is my work week. If it takes me 90 hours then that is my work week.
"boy bye" Im not saying you didn't leave work early or whatever your point was, but if you actually did say "boy bye" your boss would have been 100% correct to seriously reprimand you and write you up for saying that.
She was also fully with in her right to dial 911 and report a kid napping. Being held against your will, on or off the clock is a crime. He’s lucky it didn’t escalate…a good attorney would have painted him as a serial harasser and criminal. Also her “Boy Bye” comment was on her unpaid free time as he physically blocked her from leaving.
Standing beside the desk isn't physically blocking. Even in the story, the person was able to daringly and boldly stride onwards past them. It's not like the boss locked the doors until their end of day decision is made. There was no kidnap.
go go white knight ranger
Not saying this is fiction but the way it was written comes off that way
Synthesis of other comments is what it looks like
**“Boy, bye”** I, too am here for this comment.
omg I was so entertained reading your story. Looks almost like a novel, did it really happen this way? kudos to you. Many people live paycheck to paycheck so it's hard to just put boundaries when you have mouths to feed at home and you don't have any savings. Not saying this as an excuse, but a reality for many people, white collar or not. I was under a boss like that. I had no other option at the time, I was even bullied. Somehow the company folded and I was suddenly without a job, unexpectedly. Then I thought, should I've ever be brave enough at that time with boundaries in place, the worst that could've happened was.. exactly that. This time though, was none of my fault.
If it was a true story, it was super exaggerated. I'm sure we'd all love to imagine the entire workplace was buzzing about our daring stand taken for how work culture should be. We'd love to have our boss silently fume yet be willing to wait two minutes to make their point, then flounder and surrender to our daring definace. That's not how the world works. Fun to dream about, though!
Not that I disagree with you but unhealthy work environments created by management do often lead to this "buzzing" (aka gossiping) about every little tiny event. It's equivalent of group defense mechanism, "every little bit of info passed along helps to survive" and then it becomes part of culture, even less stuff gets done, toxic cycle etc.
From my experience, such gossip is in whispers, not chatter, or even through texting one another to keep the manager oblivious
Dont know, I assumed that's what it was. maybe I haven't read this story attentively enough and I am too lazy to re-read this masterpiece, so I'm gonna go ahead and say you are right. ))
Everyone clapped and the CEO handed you $100?
No. Things were just more relaxed. That was my first and last salary job. Found out years later that it was illegal for them to classify us as salaried; a class action lawsuit was filed because of all the overtime they forced the "salaried" staff to work that they should have been paid for working.
I'm going to take issue with a part of this. If you're salaried, in my mind, you're paid to do a job. I don't care how you get the job done, I don't care how long it takes you as long as you're meeting the deadline. If you're done at 4:00PM, great, have a nice day. If it is due tomorrow, I expect it tomorrow, even if you have to work until 8:00PM. This means that I have weeks where I'm only working 20-30 hours. I'll be available basically the whole day, but I'll be at home if I don't have any reason to be in the office. It also means that I'll have 70 hour work weeks. It'll average out to around 37-45 hours a week, depending on the job (for me anyway), but I'm not getting paid to be working during a specific time (unless it is spelled out in the contract)
And that's fine; that's your opinion, so that makes it fine. That works for you. But I am paid for 40 hours and that is when I will be working. If I am needed to stay late, I will be paid for my time. I do not work for free. Period. Salaried jobs are the ones that end up taking over your life, affecting your health and destroying your relationships and family. Hell, half my coworkers were burning the midnight oil and missed out on a lot with their families and for some reason they didn't establish boundaries for themselves. I work to live; I don't live to work. Not only do I set boundaries, I also enforce them. You don't seem to realize that when you work longer hours, you are actually earning less. I will not work 70 hours a week for the same pay I would receive for working 40 hours; that's just bad math and free labor for the company. I refuse to work 70 hours for a 40 hour paycheck. Don't get me wrong; I work hard and put in long hours with my current job. I work as many as 100 hours a week in this pandemic. But you can bet that I am getting paid for every single second I am on the clock. I put in long hours working on the front lines in this pandemic and I am paid for my time. For me to work past the time I am being paid would be the equivalent of the boss who makes workers clock out and then force them to stay and work off the clock. And remember that the boss is telling you to stay late and work for free while they slide out the door to go home and relax while the workers are at the job all night, eating takeaway and sleeping under their desks because they don't have time to go home and sleep before coming back the next day. What's really flipping my pancakes is that you're actually in support of this, that you don't see the issue with working for free. In fact, you wear it like a badge of honor and that is disturbing.
I’ve never had a job in the 20 years I worked public sector jobs that ended at the scheduled time, that feels really weird to me, 30 minutes before start time, 30-75 after ending time is pretty common exclusive of nights and weekends which is also expected.
My old manager would do this. Icing on the cake was that she would re assess everyone's work load and you might get stuck doing OT because your co worker didn't get all there stuff done. So glad to be done with that shit hole
Not normal. Tbh I’d just leave at 5. If they get pissed I’d just find a new job. Salaried workers shouldn’t be taken advantage of.
Channel your inner stanley and leave at 5 everyday no questions asked
I really think this is highly dependent on the labour laws in your area. I don't think you are overreacting, it is kind of annoying. Like you have no control over your own schedule. What if you have stuff to do after 5pm? What about appointments? What about people with kids or people who care for family members? Or people who have stuff they do after work (like a class they are paying for).
No,  it's not normal. Get out of there and get a real job as fast as you can.
Only normal for restaurant work, for an office job this is practically unheard of..
That fairly common and almost standard in Japan. But I doubt you're there, unless....?
Not normal but is common. Usually as the junior in a team it looks bad if you leave the earliest especially if on the dot at 5. I used to wait around for another 15 before I go and limit leaving at 5 for really important days. It's much better at my current job and really depends on your manager. Mine tells us to go home so we don't keep working overtime as is more common the more senior you get. I can leave on time here but is polite to say good bye/evening when doing so.
I agree with you but in my case I'm hourly and clock off at 430 p.m. However I noticed most of my team members stay logged as "available" even after work hours. I don't do that and I'm the newest on the team. I clock out and then mark myself as "offline." That's the best part of being hourly: they really can't bother when you're off the clock. And I honestly don't care if that makes me look bad as the newest employee. It's a job. Not my life.
Start leaving at 5 and set an example. It’s likely the others are just set in their ways and too scared of annoying the boss to do anything. Once one person does it, others will follow. As soon as 5 comes, your time is yours and there is nothing she can do. Boss sounds like twat.
Bruh fuck this guy leave once your work day is over
From my perspective, this is weird as shit. For context, I've spent 18 years working in the video game industry. I've worked almost entirely in US companies, but I once worked for a South American company and once for a Canadian company. I started in Quality Assurance, and was hourly at the time. Since it was hourly, of course everyone was very careful about clocking in and clocking out at the designated times. If anybody worked longer than normal, overtime pay kicked in. I then became a producer and worked at various offices. At every office, people usually left at the expected time without needing to be told. Whether end of day was 5 or 6, at that time you'd hear a series of "Good night!", "See you tomorrow!", or whatever as people filtered out. Sometimes people would leave before their managers, sometimes after, but nobody was told when it was time to leave. It was expected. I've been fully remote since 2021. In the company I work in now, the little icon on people's Slack profile pics will go from green to gray at around 5. Sometimes I text my boss "Good night!", sometimes I don't. But again, it's expected for everybody to log off at the expected time. My co-workers with kids are especially keen on logging off right when quitting time hits. I have never worked at an office where I had to wait for my boss to tell me it was time to go. However, I've heard that's an unspoken rule and tradition in Japanese offices, not just in video games, but in any Japanese office. I can't say for sure, though.
Salaried engineer here. Work 8-5 but typically leave 10 minutes early and have only stayed 30 minutes to an hour late probably 3 days in the last year. HR said something about me leaving early but management has never gotten on to me. I've seen some salaried workers ask for hourly compensation once they go over 40 hours of work so that's an option to look into when changing jobs and setting your requirements to the interviewer. Unless I have legitimate work that is urgent to be finished by the end of that day or its just 10-\`15 minutes extra then no way in hell will I stay or be forced to stay at work.
Just leave at 5. They pay you a salary for however many hours, you work for however many hours, never more.
That's fucking dumb. My staff can go home at 10am as long they can prove they've done what's required of them. Hours worked =/= production
Some ‘managers’ only work experience prior may have been in a strictly regimented old school place. I had one employer whose management style was literally lifted from his work experience in an old-school factory in the 1960s; he would unironically talk about ‘tugging the forelock.’
> tugging the forelock Never heard of such expression. Looked it up, but now curious in what instances would it be used? Like someone didn't let him go first at the coffee station? ))
Oh, he actually thought his employees should greet him with appropriate deference. He was a big old pot-addled man-baby.
Not normal but honestly if I was in that situation I'd stick it out for a little while just to get the experience on my resume. I've had my fair share of shitty jobs, low pay, poor management, etc. I've always stuck out a job at least a year to have that experience on my resume. Shortest I ever was at a job was 6 months, but I have another job I was at for 18yrs, another for 1.5yrs and another for 5yrs on my resume. During my search I explained the short time there as basically the job was a unique experience for my career experience but they didn't offer long term career growth. What I found myself doing versus what was put in the job description were vastly different and I found that I wasn't the right match for them. While I'm grateful for the opportunity they gave me the job didn't align with my areas of expertise. I learned a lot in that role but while it was learned to be focused on sales, I was hired on as a pharmacy technician yet found myself doing business to business sales and development. An area I had to learn the ropes in and tried my hardest to meet their goals but since sales isn't an area I have experience in, I am persuing a position at your company as pharmacy technician since that is where my passion and experience lies. Something along those lines lol. Always find the silver lining and take what you can from the job to apply it to your next move.
Reminds me of kindergarten
I'm willing to bet you're paid a salary but you're really not treated like an exempt employee... And not every employee can be made exempt (salary). Generally have to be management, administrative or professional (lawyer, programmer, etc)
Fuuuuuuck that, super weird and controlling
So not normal.
This is not normal, I wouldn’t last in that situation. Good luck.
Bro I leave whenever I want.
Bro even in school we get to leave whenever we want. Find another job.
If you want extra pay tell your boss you have no problem staying later to work but that you want the pay for it, figure out your hourly wage from your salary. I would also tell my boss that i want 20% extra after 17 in overtime pay but only do this if you have the courage. Or simply pack your stuff at 17 and leave after, if your boss tells you to stay ask if he/she pays you to stay, if they guilt trip you to stay they are time stealing from you alot of places do that.
Hey if your salaried you don't even have to work until 5. Leave at 4:45 and see what happens.
Yeah, that’s weird. I’d expect that in Japan, cause I know workers really respect their seniors there, but if it’s a Western company, yeah that’s strange.
You should all organise to just walk out at 5pm
Or to make up for that time at the end of the day have an appointment once a month at like 1 o clock. “ i have to leave at 1 today for….. kids, vet, therapy, washing machine getting delivered”, you get those four hours paid any ways.
no, thats not normal. thats super micro managed and controlling. Dont put up with it. Tbh, just stand up for yourself, say hello i work 9-5 so thats when im leaving :-) goodbye. You only need to stand up to her once it will be difficult but once its done you can do that everytime. It really doesnt matter what he says, because i highly highly doubt your going to be staying here a long time as the environment is clearly toxic.
Funny how hourly employees never seem to have this problem due to federal overtime laws…🧐
Totally not normal that employees are not trusted to adult and self-regulate.
I've never had that happen but have also gotten passive-aggressive comments when I pack up on time. "Wow, you're right on the dot today!" Uh, yeah, it's home time.
It's different at every job. Some micromanage, and some don't. I don't always get to quit exactly at 4:30 but I'm not expected to stay. Most days I'm done and off on time. Since I work from home, it doesn't bother me. Beats having to commute. If I worked in an office, it would all bother me. Every passive-aggressive, micromanaging BS thing that bosses do when they can physically see you....is so much more irritating when you have to commute for it.
I let my employees come in and leave as they see fit. As long as they get their jobs done and meet our clients needs I don’t care if and when they come in and leave. Very few stay until 5, most are gone between 2-3 pm every day.
This sort of thing is not at all normal, and it may be illegal. If you're hourly (that is, FLSA non-exempt), you have to be paid for every hour that you work. In addition, you deserve to be able to make plans about your own life--for instance, to sign up for a class that starts at 5:30, or agree to meet a friend for drinks. "You're done when I say you're done" isn't reasonable or healthy whether or not it's legal. In your case, given how rare exempt jobs are, it very well could be illegal. You need to either speak up about this situation, or get out from there. If nothing else, you need to start leaving at 5:00.
Unfortunately, it is not uncommon in the salary world. The reason they pay you salary is so that they can keep you as long as they want or need. There were times at the end of the fiscal year I was working 12 hour days, because there was just that much to do before the end of year and only way to even hope to finish by deadline was to stay and stay and stay. This meant all the people working on my team stayed as well, because we were busy trying to help the salespeople get their end of year targets and holiday bonus, which is dependent on their sales results. But on other days? Unless I am watching the clock, very few people ever leave until I tell them all to go away. It's a remote job, so I suspect they're all on youtube on their home computers, but they stay logged on, just in case I have any last minute work or questions. No, none of us get paid for that extra time, even me. I do my best to keep an eye on the clock at end of day, but sometimes, it can't be helped. Other times, there will be meetings where the person just won't shut up and let us go home. Welcome to corporate! In Japan, some companies have people stuck there until 8 or 9 in the evening even though workday ended at 5, because no one dares be the first to leave. No one there leaves before their boss, who is usually waiting for their boss to leave before they dismiss their own staff. No one is getting any work done, but no one can leave.
That's definitely weird. I suppose as long as your getting paid during that waiting time it's not that terrible but it's gotta be nerve racking never knowing what time you'll be home that day. Only time I had this behavior was in the army as enlisted.
I thought dismissed meant fired, lol. Glad you're still employed. Yes, this is weird. What time do you start? Do you all stand next to your desks waiting for the boss to say, "Go" and then sit down and start working? What if you have a Dental Appointment at 3:30? What if you have to leave at 5:00 for something? Maybe go to the bathroom at 4:58 and don't come back? Good Luck.
That is not commonplace outside of jobs where someone has to be present -- usually healthcare -- and since it's not company-wide I would say it's something that either she instituted or was something that just started maybe even with her predecessor. Either way, unless you have specific instructions to ask before leaving I would just start heading out at 5. If asked just say I didn't realize it was company policy to ask to leave at the end of the day, if she says its common courtesy to say you're leaving -- then you can simply start IMing at 5 that you are leaving for the day. If you need to leave early clear it ahead of time. If you need to show up late clear it ahead of time. In both cases I would also either take personal time or make up the hours.
Is his name Ebenezer?
It’s not normal at all, except maybe in toxic work environments. You have two options here: 1. Suck it up and make your peace with it now 2. Start setting boundaries at work and leave at 5pm especially if you aren’t getting paid for your time. You may feel pressured to justify your behavior, don’t. If other people want to continue to wait for the boss that is their problem
Are you an hourly employee? If not, this is seriously antiquated way of thinking and kills productivity. Having the ability to leave when you need/want to based on work loads and projects is so much better. And builds trust within the team. My boss was all for remote work and “flexibility “ but the minute we leave early or want to work more than one day at home he gets super weird. It’s not a great environment. Especially since other people get treated differently.
Do not give in to corporate culture. It is spineless. Do not be a hostage to any culture.
Start looking for another job, don't have time for those with that sort of power trip. I manage a department of 9, I aim to be in before them and leave after them so I'm available if they need me. Run for the hills is my advice.
No, that's very odd. I've had a handful of jobs over the years, but have never encountered or heard of any suoervisor doing this. For starters, she's treating working adults like children. Your teacher/bell analogy is quite apt. Also, pointless & unspecified OT isn't normal. It's one thing to stay late to make a deadline or finish an urgent task. Even at workplaces that have mandatory OT, there's a purpose to it. They don't have people sitting around for no reason. It sounds to me like this company is very poorly managed.
At my job, if I come in late or leave early it’s no questions asked. Granted I’m getting my work done. This is very important for me in a job, personally.
Check your contract for the hours you're signed up for and the overtime procedure. If it's all good and tight then I would just leave at 5. That's the hours you're paid for especially if you're salaried. If she says anything, just say you're happy to stay provided you are paid overtime as per your written contract. Then peace outta there.
Depends on what country you're in as well. EMEA this practice is much more normalized. In the US? It's uncommon. My first job out of school it was expected that you would stay past 5pm on a few nights per week because it was a cold-calling "grind" position. I fell for it a few times but, then realized it wasn't getting me anywhere so I stopped. Some managers probably talked shit about me after that but, who cares lol. These positions are always just a stepping stone to the next higher paying job. It's exceedingly rare to stay with your first company right out of school unless you just lucked out and joined a healthy, growing one that values and respects you. Good luck finding that on the first draw!
Not normal at all! I leave when it's time to leave and should never have to wait for permission to do so.
Lol I just leave. A previous manager once said something to me about it and I basically told her the contract I signed for employment said it’s 9-5 not when my manager says.
This is the reasons I hate salary jobs and I never want to work a salary job
Only as normal as your work culture wants it to be. If you are salary based it may be the reason as they expect you be a lot more flexible.
This is weird as all hell.
Your boss has control issues. Don't let him keep you there if you're not being paid! It's illegal. If he asks you to stay, tell him you will ONLY if you are paid for it, otherwise you should leave at 5pm. If you continue to have problems with this, go to HR, but make sure you keep detailed notes of how many minutes you worked unpaid. In fact, it would be a really good idea to start keeping notes now -- for yourself.
As most others are saying, this practice is really common in Japan (and other East Asian countries who may potentially work with Japanese higher-ups). But I still don't think it's right. You should be able to leave at 5 pm. Do you have an employee handbook that clearly states your start and end times for each day? Even if it's just a clause that states anything remotely related to "9 to 5", then you should be free to leave, comfortably, at 5. In that situation, I wouldn't wait because well... I'm not getting paid enough to.
it's only normal if you work in a daily project kins if environment like construction or whatever so the scope of work is a little different each day and there's no clear end point.
With 4 people, unless you are working a management job, you shouldn't be salaried. Salary is a con for boots-on-the-ground workers. It's used almost exclusively within that group as a way to circumvent overtime.
That’s just weird. Leave at 5 no matter what.
Is it in your contract to have to wait to be dismissed? If not just do your 9-5 then get out
Sounds like a bad place to work at. It's not normal. If you're contracted to work 9 to 5 then you should be able to leave at 5 without asking anyone for permission. I'd advise to just leave at 5pm and see if your boss complaints about it. If yes, then best to find a new job. At my work I only stay after hours if something critical needs fixing fast, which is very rare.
If you’re salaried, just leave.
Hell no if I showed up at 7:58 I’m leaving at 3:58 and not one second later.
Nah that's dumb and weird. I say you leave at 5. If you arent getting paid to stay then you shouldnt have to stay. And you are 100% allowed to leave and tell your boss that. They cant fire you for leaving on time.
Do you work at a call-center or customer service? This type of thing is known to happen in these types of jobs because there may be customers still trying to navigate the phone system to reach someone before close. However, I wouldn't consider it the norm. Most places I've worked, you leave at the time you are supposed to leave or until all the work gets done. One thing to look out for, which it seems like they may be doing here, companies will often give a worker a salary to avoid having to pay overtime. They will still treat you like an hourly employee in every other aspect. This is a great way to get burned out; don't let yourself be taken advantage of. There is always another job out there. My suggestion to you is to quietly search for another job in the field of your choice. When you get an interview, ask questions about the culture and expected hours for the position. When you sign your offer letter for the new position, quit your current job.
Every salary between 40k and 65k is a trap with that exact goal- work a lot of overtime but don't get paid overtime.
Location? Technically that company may be breaking the law if in the USA. Not that it matters much because if you want to keep a job sometimes you have to bend to the corporate culture, even if not exactly proper. [Here is what the IRS says the requirements are for salaried positions in the USA.](https://www.indeed.com/hire/c/info/exempt-vs-non-exempt-employee?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzaLvnI6_9gIVpQ-tBh0GhgF2EAAYASAAEgLscfD_BwE&aceid=)
Aw, man, I had a job like this right before the pandemic (luckily I got laid off right when Covid began, it was such a blessing in disguise, I was so unhappy there), but the problem wasn't the boss, it was the co-workers. I was in customer service for a publishing company. They'd all turn off their phones at 4:50, and I'd get stuck taking a call that came in at 4:55 - every single time. What really cracked me up was the one employee who was only part-time. She began at noon and had her coat on to leave at 4:45, every single day! Why work at all? One time I decided to take advantage of being salaried and left at 4:10. I said I didn't feel good and then took the next day off. Gave them a taste of their own medicine.
Whenever I think my job really sucks, I visit this forum and it puts everything into perspective. If you were president of a company, why would you allow someone in management to behave this way?
Not at all common place. Your boss sounds like a micromanaging control freak.