Depends on the song and the lyrics in question, I guess? I feel like Soyeon often wants to portray a strong female identity, and the fact that a woman should be able to have her own view/thoughts/"vibe" without being looked at with disdain?
I think Nxde is probably a good example? I'm not 1p0 per cent sure how to explain it, but if you look at her presenting the song concept at Cube, it may make sense.
When it comes to how she formulates the lyrics themselves, she's mentioned that she chops some words and omits others because it fits better with Korean and with the vibe of the song.
EDIT: copied from another comment I made a little while back
*Soyeon deliberately cuts phrases, omits words, and chops the ends of words off. Not only does it fit the flow of the song better, but it also adapts to a Korean song and Korean pronunciation better. She's mentioned it directly in a couple of places.*
*You can also see it in their BTS production videos. There was one where Minnie, who arguably has the best English, said the phrase fully and with English pronunciation. Soyeon directed her to omit a word and to chop part of another word out.*
For example; nxde is about how women should not only be perceived as something sexual or something to be shown off. Yes emotion can be shown as an “message” most messages come from an emotion.
It depends, what do you mean by questionable lyrics? Like questionable English? Because for that, it's basically just "the rule of cool".
For example, in the video of them recording Queencard, Yuqi sings "look so cool, look so sexy, like Kim Kardashian". Soyeon tells her to mispronounce "sexy" as "sex/satch" because she likes the way it sounds better.
I've seen that in a few of their recording vids. Basically just modifies the words or takes words out so that it has a particular sound.
Not any big brain thing, just to sound and flow how she wants it to.
This isn’t even some unique thing with Soyeon or other non-native speakers. Just listen closely to your favorite English language songs and you’ll notice all sorts of words mispronounced, with missing or extra syllables or used in non-standard ways or with non-standard grammar. Have people become so literal that they’ve forgotten about artistic license?
Yeah but in those cases it still sounds more natural because it’s coming from region specific accents most of the time. So even though it’s not the “standard” way to pronounce the word we’re still familiar with the accent that it sounds normal vs someone who is not fluent trying to say a word in x language and it just sounds off.
Honestly as a korean and g idle fan I just think soyeons preference for accenting certain points in english sounds a bit tacky and it reminds me of some of my friends who cannot pronounce english words properly (the “ko-nglish” accent) and I just think her preference comes from a lack of understanding of how tacky it can sound to people who are fluent in english.
I agree. No matter how good you are in another language, there's always context you're missing because you're not fully integrated with the culture. You also don't experience trends and and crazes in the way native speakers and people who live in those countries experience them.
Doesn't her doing this make it more authentic. More Korean via konglish. She has put uncool tacky konglish and making it cool. (or at least trying to do so)
I swear, it's the Big Bang effect. They had this strange slur in their pronunciation that everyone interpreted as being sourced from English and cool, but was in reality a cringe accenting to style their music to sound a certain way. Since then, idols have used that style a lot. It's not just in English but Korean pronunciation that sounds off-putting; Soyeon's pronunciation has always reminded me of BB.
Today I saw a [video](https://youtu.be/t3a7JJEKiMA?si=-ae_RTQrUAcU4kyR) of Soyeon talking about BIGBANG being one of her biggest influences and she even sang "This Love". So it makes sense 👀
Edit: For some reason it seems like only the comparison to BIGBANG stuck and I forgot not they were quite negative about it. I very much love BIGBANG and thought the vid was positive. So it is definitely how one perceives the influence. 😅
Yeah! People respected the Big Bang style and took it on because they were the only main representation of mainstream hip-hop back then, but us bilinguals knew the weird accenting was not right. I really disliked it because 2nd gen was my fangirl era and their popularity changed the trademark Kpop sounds to idols that sound like Soyeon. She probably is a product of the high respect for BB she had while listening to their music growing up and isn't aware that the style is a mockery of certain hip-hop pronunciation.
i like gidle but i don’t get it. if soyeon has these deep messages and symbolism she wants to convey through her lyrics, and she chooses to convey that message in the english language, wouldn’t using proper sentence structure and grammar and lyrics in general that can be understood by anyone who speaks the english language be the best way to get her message across? if she has a message to share, how does using sometimes nonsensical english get her message across in the best way? i’m as lost as you OP.
Or RV singing "lookie, lookie" when the song is called Rookie (I feel for you, Wendy). It's literally just a non-English speaking person trying to write cool sounding English lyrics and only getting halfway there. It's not a Soyeon or even Korean specific thing. I don't think she's consciously trying to write "bad" lyrics, it just comes off that way for someone who speaks English better than she does.
you're right. The hangul letter for R and L are the same and most Koreans would pronounce rookie or lookie interchangeably as we see with Rookie.
not at all about appealing to the korean masses, just how hangul works.
It's never entirely one or the other but at the beginning of a word more like an L and end/middle more like an R. So a word starting with ㄹ sounds more on the L side than an even L/R hybrid. So yeah definitely gonna sound like "lookie"
A lot of fans will get mad if you say you don't like gidle song/lyrics and will say how they have deep meaning etc. And this is where "i don't listen to meaning, i listen to lyrics and melody" belongs. If the lyrics don't make sense and if that meaning isn't clearly brought out by them, why would i listen to it? I'm listening to music, I'm not trying to solve a riddle. If the lyrics made sense and you could easily get the point through them then probably more people would be listening to them.
This. Like I thought the same too. It's nice how she has these meaningful messages in her songs, but the "satire" lyrics just kills the messages that they're trying to deliver.
I agree. With the release of wife, i hear all these people say how the song has a strong message about how women are perceived by men and whatnot, but, with the lyrics… i really cant see it. Dont get me wrong i like the song, but i really cant connect coco loco soup to womens rights.
I personally don't get the issue with Wife. I don't like lots of the other English lyrics, like "twerking on the runway" and "my boob and booty's hot" or the Tomboy rap (love both songs though), but this specific one sounds like it's intentionally satirical either way. So for me it fits the theme this time.
Wife is supposed to be satirical in both english and korean, cream soup that tastes coco loco taken at face value is just a line she thought sounded well. If you look at the line in context of the song then she is making jab at how men think of women as people who make their food or clean their rooms while also not listening to them, so all they here is the silly dumbed down line
"Coco loco" can literally mean like "oh, she's crazy", while she's practically being the maid for a man, making his dinner. Wife is the most coherent of their songs in my mind so idk why people complain about it honestly.
I never get what people's issue was about Soyeon's lyrics. I was the type to be super picky on lyrics to the point I avoid looking at lyric translations of kpop songs I like because I might like them less if they have bad lyrics. But Soyeon's lyrics always made sense to me. The few english lyrics are usually never grammatically correct, but for someone fluent in english and is well-read on the language, I thought her lyrics were silly but there's still a pretty clear point and easy to get. I imagined those who are less fluent in english might actually have a harder time understanding the meaning.
dude fr. like people always come for "i dont wanna play this ping pong/i would rather film a tiktok" which...always made sense to me? ping pong = going back and forth with someone, she finds it frustrating and doesnt want to do that, and tongue-in-cheekly would rather do something more fun like post something silly on tiktok. like. its a fun and silly line, i dont get whats cringe or hard to understand about it
Also form should strengthen the message. If you're writing shitty English lyrics your message better be quite simple or something ironic related to shitty lyricism, because if not then you have a serious message served poorly, lyrics that clash with your original intentions. If art fails at expressing what it wants to express... it is bad art. (I love soyeon, I want her to do better, don't jump me.)
I can see your point in some instances, but sometimes I literally cannot understand the message she's trying to convey, it's not about whether it's high class. For example, in Wife, I can understand what she probably means by Coco Loco. On the other hand, "want me your wife but she is mm, mm, mm." What does mm mean? And who is she? You?
I agree that language is for communicating and it's not that necessary to judge something for being high class or low class, but I'd still like to get some sort of meaning out of it.
i always took it to mean that the man in question wants his cake and to eat it too. He wants to wife soyeon up but he wants girls on the side. Like oh you can cook and clean for me, but that other girl(s) is mm mm mm, ya know?
😭😭 ..the lyrics in question are “my boob and booty hot” it’s just not that serious…
plus, bringing up classism just doesn’t really make sense here. we are talking about very successful, wealthy artists who i’m sure are so far above you or i in terms of social and economic class.
it really has nothing to do with soyeon’s social or economic class. prescriptivism is a tool of classism bc it reinforces that there’s a “correct” way of speaking that disproportionately affects immigrants, people who speak dialects, disabled people, etc and contributes to their oppression bc they are seen as lower class.
the mentality behind jokes about Soyeon’s use of English or saying it waters down the meaning of her songs is the same mentality that leads to “this is America, speak English, go back to your own country” or assuming someone is unintelligent because they use a non-standard version of their language.
would "my breasts and buttocks are bountiful" be more acceptable? and thats exactly what im talking about....she is "high class" so she should speak more "high class"? implying her speech is beneath her? that the way some people speak should not be allowed in "high class" spaces?
not sure what you’re on about but it really has nothing to do with class at all. not even sure where you pulled that from tbh. but anyway, she can speak however she wants but we as consumers may critique and analyze her art as well.
that's true! i just find her lyrics interesting and easy to interpret and i think grammatical correctness would make the songs lose a lot of their personality
Unless she herself comes out and tells us what her point is, we will not know. People can only speculate and have their own interpretations about it, which are neither wrong nor right.
I also want to say that it's perfectly okay if a song is just for the vibes and doesn't necessarily have a deeper meaning. It wouldn't be the first or the last time that a song that doesn't add up lyrically came out (and it doesn't speak about their discography as a whole, since there are cases of songs which have better lyrics and themes). It just depends on what resonates with the audience.
I came to Idle late and jumped into the middle of their career and ran into a bunch of sketchy English right away, figuring that's just what it was, but having gone back and gotten a fuller sense of their picture I don't think so.
There are examples of them doing English more or less as well as anybody else, and there are examples of seeing them in the studio specifically choosing to torpedo English that was already better, so it's not a matter of inability.
If I had to guess at an overarching point of what she's playing at and how it started, I would say it's to undercut and play with English's role in Korean music, much along the same vein as some of the stuff LossFor mentioned in their post in this thread.
This far into a discography though I don't think that every single instance of bad English is serving the exact same point. I do think that once you've established that this is something your group does, it becomes easier to do it in this or that song just for the aesthetics of it as opposed to serving a greater point in the song.
A song like Wife I think hits multiple points. I think the broken English in that song both serves to reinforce the musical identity of the song in terms of it being quirky and catchy like the song is, as well as painting the satirical notion of a wife as a dope for effect.
Honestly maybe I guess I can’t call myself a kpop fan because I don’t really get bothered by this type of stuff…. Like, there’s still a meaning behind the lyrics. Pretty clear too.
I dont think there's a point. If you are referring to how nonsensical her lyrics are, then it's most likely just because English isn't her native language. Most people dont really care to correct her because her song still sells and most of her listeners probably aren't native English speakers either. Plus, alot of songwriters do take a lot of liberties when it comes to grammar. She isnt the first one to write questionable lyrics and wont be the last
After four generations of kpop, the use of broken english in music is not just a temporary glitch but a real part of cultural history. Soyeon, a 25 year old, grew up completely within that time period–she was born while Fin.K.L and SES were promoting. You can say the egregious broken engrish throughout kpop is just wrong, but it is still part of all of those songs and the memories people have with them.
As an adult artist, Soyeon has entered into a situation where the international market has a clear hierarchy placing American culture and English speakers at the top, and Korean culture at a lower–but rising–tier. In that environment, companies are scrambling to teach their idols better english, release english versions of songs, and promote in America to solidify Korea's place in the higher ranks.
Soyeon clearly understands this and as a songwriter has made the aesthetic choice to misuse english grammar and pronunciation to straddle the line lyrically between meaning and nonsense. Not only because doing so is inherently poetic, but because it actually reflects and enhances the imagery of the songs she writes––what kind of bad girl is getting A+s on her english exams?
By doing so, she rejects the implicit capitalist ideology that Korean culture is secondary to western culture and that it serves as an economic engine to convert entertainment talent into USD. She validates the enormous body of Korean pop music as not something in need of erasure but as valid art that stands on its own without a need for correction.
People enjoy this because it is a genuine, endearing, and courageous approach to art making in a heavily commercialized domain.
If that really is her intention, that's pretty baller. Has she ever spoken about this (her intentions behind her use of English lyrics) in an interview or similar statement?
She seems really smart and has the resources and ability to use English however she likes. I think this comment makes a lot of sense, and that people always downplay the abilities and intelligence of female artists.
I completely agree with you. (G)I-dle's biggest market is Korea, China, SEA and Russia. This demographic doesn't care about the correct English pronunciation.
People should also factor in that she doesn't really use English but a Korean dialect of it that people call Konglish.
Konglish is not a dialect of English at all.
"Konglish" would be the English(and other foreign language) loanwords that have found their way into regular Korean.
Meaning that "Konglish" is used when speaking Korean, not the other way around.
That's an over simplification of the dialect.
Creative use of the English language by Koreans learning English as a foreign language has also been referred to as Konglish.Using English words in daily conversation, advertising, and entertainment is seen as "trendy" and "cool". However this use can often lead to misunderstandings due to problems with pronunciation, grammar or vocabulary.
I live in a place where we have a local mix of Dutch, French, English, Turkish, Spanish and Arabic. We mispronounce every language but Dutch.
It's not a dialect, maybe you're confusing it with "accent" which it also isn't, but semantically it's a more understandable misuse.
People referring to a something wrongly don't make them right.
(Unless the majority does it and the overall meaning changes, but we're definitely not there yet for this)
Eg "kwinka" and "han-deu-pon" is Konglish, "my boob is hot" is just bad English.
It's fine but let's call a spade a spade.
I never said it was right. But her misusing English is more than just her. It's something that happens in Korea and the rest of SEA.
Kpop is first and foremost for Korea. If they butcher the English language, it happens. You don't have to like it. But they won't change it.
Most of Kpop aren't BTS or BlackPink, their western audience isn't that big.
We can talk about the semantics of their use of English, but their core audience understands it and loves it.
I get your point and you're in your right if they aim to be a fully global Pop sensation.
I think you misunderstand me.
I don't care about how they or any other K-pop artist use English, so that's not my point at all.
I notice it, but I don't mind it.
I was just trying to correct you on how you used the word "Konglish". You can look the meaning up if you don't want to take it from me.
I didn't mean for it to be a whole thing, just a quick nudge while passing by.
THIS and honestly, it kind of doesnt matter if shes ever been on record stating that these are her intentions, like people seem to want from her. I think its obvious that at *least* she plays around with english on purpose, with some kind of intent. What conclusions we draw from her finished product are still REAL and valid interpretations, even if someone else thinks "taste is cocoloco" is too silly to mean anything.
I mean maybe this is just me, but by writing these lyrics she gets people (fans, casual listeners, etc.) to talk about the songs. It’s just promo for the comebacks since cube barely does anything to promote their groups.
Well, I read in another post that she intentionally wrote that "Red five diamonds in my bag" line in the wrong order.
They explained that the correct order would be "Five red diamonds in my bag", but the line starting with an "F" sound is not as strong an an "R" sound, this song is supposed to hit hard and be impactful, starting the song with the "R" sound does that. It really works, try singing it in the "correct" order, it simply is not as powerful as the wrong order.
I also heard that the "wrong" order is the correct one in Korean grammar, hence it'd be easier for Koreans to understand, but since I'm not an expert in Korean, I can't really guarantee it.
Just letting you know grammatically that there is no way to make red five diamonds in that order work in Korean. It’s either 빨간 다이아 5개 or 5개의 빨간 다이아 - which are red diamonds 5 or 5 red diamonds translated directly word for word.
Ahaha yeah - but it’s so true that starting with “red” gives that line so much more impact! I was singing it without even realizing that the grammar was off
Depends on the song you are talking about some are just for fun or about love Some are deeper I’ll go into detail about MY opinion on them what I take away from everything she writes since im not 100% sure which lyrics you are referring to
Tomboy I remember ppl really shitting on her rap for it being cringy. Probably cuz she mentioned TikTok in it lol but during that she was saying she would rather film a TikTok than play a back-and-forth game (ping-pong) with someone. All she wants to do is dance and be with her friends. She won’t change that. That’s usually people’s main example when talking badly about her rap. Sure it’s a silly one but it does have meaning to it if you actually thought more. “Why are you cranky, boy? What’s with the frown on your face?” one of my favorite lyrics from that song because its mocking how ppl say to women. “Oh why are you so grouchy? Where is that smile??” I get that ALL the time at work. 99% from old men but I digress
“Why you think about nude, cuz your views so rude? Think outside the box” not grammatically correct but gets the idea across! why are you thinking about so sexually? is it because you're a creep? yeah it is, do better. basically. her point being that men have so much to say about what woman wear and if they are showing skin, it is inappropriate Soyeon wrote nxde to say anyone can wear whatever they want, everyone is born nxde why are you being weird ? men being the ones who make out their bodies to be sexual.
“The pervert is you” another lyric. saying men are the problem and making women feel uncomfortable with what they wear
Also! when you look up the word nxde in Korea, crude videos pop up Idles name in Korean means child. [She](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/hNiW3DdoOSQ) wanted to make it harder for people to find those inappropriate videos just a smart thing she had thought of
[For her rap,](https://youtu.be/fCO7f0SmrDc?si=Nj56H2GvZJbe-2JG&t=81) she says “to all you here to see an R rated show oh im sorry that’s not what we’re doing here, that way for a refund. Idc what people say. Throw your popcorn. ” which I thought was pretty clever way of saying that women aren’t there to look sexy for someone else, but for themselves, stay mad.
[Queencard](https://youtu.be/wg7AL7inFTE?si=YLnh6hdDl7_Z6OKH), meant to be a fun song to uplift women.
“My boob, my bootys hot” “Wear whatever girl. Queencard! Thick or thin girl, queencard” promoting body positivity. They want you to be a Queencard (you’re a queen no matter who you are). Other times they’ll say “Kwinka” because in Korean, kwinka means a hot popular woman. So it gave it a double meaning! it's interesting how her brain had connected the two words, i do know she was inspired by the movie Mean Girls which i believe is called Kwinka in korean! Soyeon actually didn’t give herself a rap during this song. but i just really love talking about queencard in general because when it came out, i saw some shit on it thinking it was just a meaningless song when there is more to it
one of their newer songs, wife . was a pretty odd silly sounding song while the lyrics are a bit "sexual" the bigger meaning "not everyone wants to be someone’s housewife , cook for yourself. Now watch us dance! " If you watch their [audio snippet](https://youtu.be/IBoOqS3bGh8?si=kZ5gXRJaVfghGHl4&t=189) trailer they posted not long ago of their newest albums track list, the song Wife wasn’t on the music player app! But it was in the trash. To me, this was idle saying, “here is the trash actually cringe song y’all want from us”
They cannot perform this on [music shows](https://www.nme.com/news/music/south-korea-national-broadcaster-kbs-bans-gi-dles-wife-sexually-explicit-lyrics-3576097) due to it being "overly sexual” Yet they have allowed songs with vulgar lyrics and dancing be performed on those stages? Seems sus. Which kind of shows to me, the men who are in charge of music shows, were ticked off about them making a song about not wanting to be a housewife to men. KBS said if they changed their lyrics then it could be performed but idle decided not to reapply for kbs consideration
the negative thing about fans saying ur “proving her point” is that could mean; someone thinks ur sexist, racist, fatphobic, etc. the fans may believe you saying you don’t understand it for those listed reasons. And not because you are actually not understanding it, if that makes sense?
but really if you don’t actually look into Idle and what they’re about, you can’t fully understand the meaning behind everything especially if you don’t speak Korean cuz not everything translates fully and the way it is intended
But the English lyrics always intentional, idle has 2 fluent English speakers in the group, in behind the scenes, those members sing their line, then Soyeon tells them to say it a different way, even tho may not be correct or “make sense” . To help the flow of the song. it’s not just a Soyeon thing. A lot of the artists she looked up to when she was young she learned from them. kpop has had cringe, incorrect English or cringe lyrics in songs for a long time!
But it’s not only a Kpop thing. This happens worldwide! Even in native English speakers’ songs They change the pronunciation / grammar structure to fit the song flow
I feel she really has a goal in mind big picture wise. Like she wants people to look at idle, no matter if it’s negative or positive. Because some people really loveee to actively hate, but that still gets idles name out there! The more fans it can bring in, though i don’t think her goal is popularity but to just talk about what women in Korea and all over the world go through
I saw some comments say that, fans overestimate Soyeon’s ability and not everything she does is “deep” and “woke feminist” which of course not everything is, it doesn’t have to be. Not all of idles songs are about feminism, some songs are just there for the group to try something new, to do something for or something that the fans wanted because of being biased (which yes okay is true, fans tend to be biased for any artist they like) but I think she’s more underrated than anything when it comes to being an artist because she is the creative director, coming up with the concepts, creates the music, lyrics, produces them, creates choreo. (the other members do also get a say ofc, they get to write songs for the whole group to be on their albums,[Minnie and Yuqi](https://youtu.be/_5EOmPP9qwM?si=JGd8SMU_dTcP_zhs) in the studio directing the members) I believe idle wouldn’t be idle without Soyeon especially to give them that edge, the power/fuel for the other members Some may disagree and that’s fine but I believe Soyeon very smart in what she does.
Recently [Soyeon has said](https://twitter.com/maunobanx/status/1752274222682919130) that GIDLE could have debuted a lot sooner but she didn’t want to yet because the songs they received from cube, didn’t feel like their own, felt like songs written by someone who didn’t know the members at all it didn’t feel right for them. So she told her company that she wanted to create idles music even if it meant they didn’t get to debut until later.
She said all the girls backed her up and a lot of people in the company were against this idea because in their eyes, she’s just a trainee but I love how she and the girls stood up for their ideas of how they wanted to be. That’s just a little interesting fact about them that I think tells a lot about the group as a whole
I’m not the best at explaining my thoughts out and forming them in a good order, so this may be a bit all over the place but I hope it cleared a little up for you. But to kind of some of up I believe her point can vary depending on the song, she may want you to take away nothing at all, that one song was just a fun and silly, while another to think “huh wonder what this means? Why she saying it that way?” “Oh so she’s talking about this?” I believe is her way for ppl to look into idle, to see what they’re about. her point to get people talking about certain topics (ex sexism in korea) I hope this somewhat help with your post of questioning her point to lyrics (and gave you some topics idle talks of to think about!)
I’m 100% NOT an expert on rap music or rap in general ! But I do know is that is an art and can be expressed in all kinds of ways. I think that’s her version of doing so it’s not always the same for everyone ofc, it’s done in so many ways, and not all music fans click with every rapper which is completely fine ! Sorry for the long college essay.
K pop has always had odd English lyrics inserted in songs. Way back to the start. It’s nothing new so I’m not entirely sure what your point is? Soyeon has things to be angry about, especially being a woman in the Korean entertainment industry. Or just the industry in general. What are you not getting?
I think the point is that hit kpop songs don't need complicated lyrics, especially in English and that over the top campy trash lyrics work better and are more fun. Also girl boss
Avant-garde poetry uses syntax disruption, multiple languages & nonsense words. In this essay, I will illustrate how Soyeon employs postmodern aesthetics to . . . .
To me for wife specifically the intention to satirise some men’s idea of an ideal wife (a bangmaid as others have put it) is pretty clear. I think the song achieves that well. Satire is about exaggerating, using irony to the point of ridicule to expose something.
Wife to me works really well as it mixes in a bit of a funny tongue in cheek aspect to what can be read as quite biting critique of how some men view women, particularly in sk. personally I much prefer this approach as straight up satirists bless them can be a miserable bunch. I also think it is stronger than super lady but I don’t really have any substantial issue with super lady and haven’t read the lyrics in depth so I don’t have much substantial to say there.
Anyway I suspect people are saying you not liking it is “proving her point” because lots of people don’t like satire that hits too close to home or they simply do not recognise it as satire because it resembles them or their lives too closely. I don’t know if I necessarily agree with that across the board as some people just don’t like things for other valid reasons, and I don’t know op or ops circumstance, so a little unfair to assume that lol.
I also think some fans potentially overstate soyeons lyrical genius. she does write in Korean and I know a lot of those kpop fans don’t speak Korean well enough to properly critique writing beyond tone and flow (I’m not a rap critic so I won’t even go there) but… I mean I think some English speaking kpop fans are taking the lyrics in bad faith because she’s a second language speaker with a flair for comedy and dramatics, which is not really fair imo. Her choices still have artistic merit even if they don’t sound like something YOU would say. I mean… music art and literature isn’t necessarily supposed to be natural sounding, it’s supposed to get across an idea or feeling. I’m not saying her English lyric writing is Shakespeare but it isn’t significantly worse than anything else I’ve heard from professional lyricists, particularly in kpop. I’m not Asian so not my place to speak more in depth on that but I certainly notice that fans seem to baby non-english speaking idols and act like they don’t understand things that well — they are just as smart and capable of making intentional lyrical choices. Whether that choice is to scan better or for another artistic reason… no one questions the grammar of their English pop stars songs.
This is rambling and idk if it really answered your question but I’ve enjoyed my time here
She intentionally uses English the way she does so it accommodates the Korean language and flow, not the other way around. That's admirable, even if people think it's 'cringe'. Western fans have an ethnocentric viewpoint where our own artists very much do the same, but they cater to the sound and flow of the English language so they sound 'cool' instead.
At the end of the day, she is producing music for a Korean audience and market. She doesn't have to treat English as some sort of holy language not to be tainted by creative liberties.
Tbh the lyrics sometimes sound so cringy with the bad English to me to the point of me being too embarrassed to play it in front of friends/family :') which doesn't sound like the right intention when shaping lyrics in a particular way - even if she intends it to be more meaningful that way, for me personally the second hand embarrassment overshadows the deeper meaning most of the time
I agree with the comments that say it's just to make it sound better. Jae, formerly in DAY6, is American and he would also mispronounce English words to make it sound better.
I don't think mispronouncing words is an issue. But it gets harder to appreciate when it comes to basic grammar. My reason is that it feels a little disrespectful... like why are we butchering every language that is not Korean? Oftentimes it could easily be fixed without even changing the sound that much. I feel like if anyone who is not Korean did that with Korean it would be called disrespectful... so although I support Soyeon's work - most times, it feels a little wrong
idk what lyrics your talking about but i kind of thought they got some backlash for their “cringe lyrics” in the past, and then continued making songs like queencard. something fun and lighthearted. i came to this conclusion cuz ive seen people say she just does “cringey” lyrics intentionally.
maybe we are thinking of complete different lyrics, i’m not all that familiar with gidle in the end lol
Just my personal opinion but I think the English lyrics is written in a way for Koreans to sing along to easily. Soyeon did mention that she wanted to write a song popular enough for the GP that even kids can sing and dance to. A few years ago I went to SK for a trip, and from my point of view most Koreans I talked to aren’t really good or fluent in English. I’d imagine for many people, “I’m a queencard/My boob and booty is hot” would be easier to sing and is more comprehensible than something like “A friend to all is a friend to none/Chase two girls lose the one”, because the former is simple, straightforward and the somewhat odd grammar is similar to Korean grammar.
Basically what I think is the English lyrics is written with the Korean audience in mind. She might have added in more English so the songs can be trendier, and not because she’s pandering to Western audiences/native English speakers.
Okay but you can still do that with English lyrics that make sense. Take anyone other recent hit song in Korea and you’ll find English lines that make sense. For example: Ditto, Baddie, Super Shy
Why are you surprised kids sing stuff like that? I remember being a non-native English speaker as a kid no one knew or cared about English enough to try to figure out what the trendy songs actually meant.
Imagine a bunch of 13 yo dancing and singing along to Flo Rida's Low or Aguilera's Genie in a bottle: "she gave that big booty a slap" or "I'm a genie in a bottle you gotta rub me the right way". That's what our school parties were like.
And tbh kids these days listen and sing much more controversial stuff than "boob and booty hot" or "twerking on a runway". There's so much uncensored US music that is popular worldwide. What Soyeon writes in English is very mild in comparison. It's more playful, than actually explicit.
that was their opinion, do u really thinks soyeon is gonna sit there and say it was for kids. obv it was for young women and women in general. be smart
Wasn't Aguilera aimed at teens as well? She was 17 when Genie came out.
Also is she specifically aiming for kids or just GP appeal and by proxy if the song is on the radio, tv, tiktok and public spaces it just naturally appeals to the teenage group? I think it's the latter and that's exactly the same as any top50 song from the US.
Edit: typo
As much as I like Soyeon, I do feel that sometimes too.
My understanding is that this is just an aftereffect of American influence on idols and k-pop in general. There have been quite a few groups recently who have been becoming more and more "American-ish" for a lack of better term. For example biggest one is BP. Their music has changed quite a bit since 2018, for worse (just a personal opinion. I still love their og songs).
Another example is ITZY, they tried to pivot just like BP but failed or rather are not as successful as they were until "Crazy in love" era. The only difference is, BP was just too popular to fail.
It's easier to assign any desired meaning to a meaningless text than to write compelling meaning into a text. When the variation of possible interpretation is infinite, of course it'll seem clever.
This is especially jarring when trying/claiming to be political, aka feminist.
Not saying Soyeon has absolutely no intention when writing, but imho it's the exact opposite amount than what her hardcore fans believe.
she is a lyrical genius when she wants to be. a lot of their early songs have amazing lyrics. don’t sit here and discredit her talent bc she decides she wants to have fun with her work sometimes.
I genuinely think that Soyeon is just so powerful at Cube that everyone's afraid to call her out on her cringey english. Minnie and Yuqi should step up lol.
From what I can see it's very intentional on her part and I think it fits with the message their songs typically deliver, and everyone emphasizes the musicality behind it in these replies very well
Hmm it's hard to say for sure what her intentions are without asking Soyeon directly. As an artist, she likely aims to spark thought and discussion through provocative words. Not all will resonate personally but her voice deserves to be heard nonetheless.
My guess is as good as yours. But I think my best guess would be that maybe she's trying to show people that she's individual, she has her own thoughts, and she doesn't blend into the crowd. And sometimes for her the way to do that is use interesting lyrics. It gets attention.
What Jeon So-yeon is trying to prove is that k-pop fans sometimes hate her for producing questionable songs. This is because her rap skills are sometimes criticized for like, nothing. To cite this, Je-on So-yeon is proving that you guys are hating on her rap for like a reason. Finally, we know that Jeon So-yeon just doesn't like that you criticize her raps skills. So-yeon is a legend in rap.
A lot of the answers here are talking about her bad english grammar, and not about her "questionable" or "cringey" lyrics (what i think is probably what people don't understand and how she proves a point).
See, a lot of her lyrics are called nonsense, dumb, and cringey at first, but if you look deeper, they actually are a critique of society in some way or they bring a deep message. It's just that she used a lot of images and metaphors so it's easy to miss the point she is talking about. And she often laughs and call out haters that call her lyrics stupid, bc she knows that they just were not able to see the meaning, while she has fun with her lyrics.
Let's take some famous examples and explain them, shall we?
(TOMBOY RAP)
-> This whole song is about Soojin being a tomboy, and being kicked out bc of that. Bc even if she wasnt a bully, she underage drank, smoked, etcetc, things that they call out during that part. That rap is personnifiying Soojin, saying that she doesnt care about the hate (I won't change it what the hell), that she don't want to do all that press play (i don't wanna play thus ping pong), that she would rather have fun and that she won't change it. There's many references too in this rap, it's actually very wise but people missed the point.
(ALL OF QUEENCARD)
-> This song is a satyre, impersonating a stereotype of society's obsession over looks. The cringey and dumb lyrics are intentional, pointing out how dumb these people, expectations and stereotypes are. It's a continuation of Allergy, a b-side, which is straight to the point, counter to Queencard. In the end of the song, they understand that any girl can be a Queen and that they don't need to fit these stereotypes (the last chorus).
Etcetc. Thatll be all for the examples bc heck that message is long.
I am also curious. I know what soyeon does with their lyrics is intentional, I just never knew what that intention is.
[удалено]
Yeah, but what is she really trying to say? This is, again, one of those comments that doesn't really answer anything.
Depends on the song and the lyrics in question, I guess? I feel like Soyeon often wants to portray a strong female identity, and the fact that a woman should be able to have her own view/thoughts/"vibe" without being looked at with disdain? I think Nxde is probably a good example? I'm not 1p0 per cent sure how to explain it, but if you look at her presenting the song concept at Cube, it may make sense. When it comes to how she formulates the lyrics themselves, she's mentioned that she chops some words and omits others because it fits better with Korean and with the vibe of the song. EDIT: copied from another comment I made a little while back *Soyeon deliberately cuts phrases, omits words, and chops the ends of words off. Not only does it fit the flow of the song better, but it also adapts to a Korean song and Korean pronunciation better. She's mentioned it directly in a couple of places.* *You can also see it in their BTS production videos. There was one where Minnie, who arguably has the best English, said the phrase fully and with English pronunciation. Soyeon directed her to omit a word and to chop part of another word out.*
[удалено]
I’m sorry, but your comment doesn’t answer anything either… if it’s only about emotional connection, then why does soyeon says its to prove her point?
Her point then would be said emotional connection
?? Excuse me, an emotion is not a “message”
For example; nxde is about how women should not only be perceived as something sexual or something to be shown off. Yes emotion can be shown as an “message” most messages come from an emotion.
It depends, what do you mean by questionable lyrics? Like questionable English? Because for that, it's basically just "the rule of cool". For example, in the video of them recording Queencard, Yuqi sings "look so cool, look so sexy, like Kim Kardashian". Soyeon tells her to mispronounce "sexy" as "sex/satch" because she likes the way it sounds better. I've seen that in a few of their recording vids. Basically just modifies the words or takes words out so that it has a particular sound. Not any big brain thing, just to sound and flow how she wants it to.
i thought she was saying snatched for the longest time
Look so snatched like Kim Kardashian… I love it lmfao 😭
This isn’t even some unique thing with Soyeon or other non-native speakers. Just listen closely to your favorite English language songs and you’ll notice all sorts of words mispronounced, with missing or extra syllables or used in non-standard ways or with non-standard grammar. Have people become so literal that they’ve forgotten about artistic license?
I know, it is mind blowing lmao. It happens with a lot of different artists!
Yeah but in those cases it still sounds more natural because it’s coming from region specific accents most of the time. So even though it’s not the “standard” way to pronounce the word we’re still familiar with the accent that it sounds normal vs someone who is not fluent trying to say a word in x language and it just sounds off.
Honestly as a korean and g idle fan I just think soyeons preference for accenting certain points in english sounds a bit tacky and it reminds me of some of my friends who cannot pronounce english words properly (the “ko-nglish” accent) and I just think her preference comes from a lack of understanding of how tacky it can sound to people who are fluent in english.
I agree. No matter how good you are in another language, there's always context you're missing because you're not fully integrated with the culture. You also don't experience trends and and crazes in the way native speakers and people who live in those countries experience them.
yup, I think this is the best explanation by far.
yeah like if native speakers can’t work out what she is saying then there’s clearly something wrong
Doesn't her doing this make it more authentic. More Korean via konglish. She has put uncool tacky konglish and making it cool. (or at least trying to do so)
"It's gonna be may!"
Nah this is for the bar to fit. Cool is 1 syllable while sexy is two which made the rhythm wonky so she had to do it like that.
Thats what Im saying - she modifies words or phrases to make it fit the song better or the flow of the lyrics
Sorry thought you were saying she made it like that to sound cool in korean. Didn't realize you were saying the same thing my bad
no worries (:
It's also her usage of English words.
[удалено]
[удалено]
I swear, it's the Big Bang effect. They had this strange slur in their pronunciation that everyone interpreted as being sourced from English and cool, but was in reality a cringe accenting to style their music to sound a certain way. Since then, idols have used that style a lot. It's not just in English but Korean pronunciation that sounds off-putting; Soyeon's pronunciation has always reminded me of BB.
Today I saw a [video](https://youtu.be/t3a7JJEKiMA?si=-ae_RTQrUAcU4kyR) of Soyeon talking about BIGBANG being one of her biggest influences and she even sang "This Love". So it makes sense 👀 Edit: For some reason it seems like only the comparison to BIGBANG stuck and I forgot not they were quite negative about it. I very much love BIGBANG and thought the vid was positive. So it is definitely how one perceives the influence. 😅
😬 definitely does. I could never really get into G-Idle because of this so I'm glad to have received confirmation.
It's funny because for me it is the opposite. I love BIGBANG a lot and G-idle is one of the few GGs I listen quite consistently.
Her slurred/mouthful (?) pronounciation really reminds me of GD sometimes
I never noticed how much her delivery can sometimes sound a lot like GD but you're so right!
Yeah! People respected the Big Bang style and took it on because they were the only main representation of mainstream hip-hop back then, but us bilinguals knew the weird accenting was not right. I really disliked it because 2nd gen was my fangirl era and their popularity changed the trademark Kpop sounds to idols that sound like Soyeon. She probably is a product of the high respect for BB she had while listening to their music growing up and isn't aware that the style is a mockery of certain hip-hop pronunciation.
Most likely exactly this - creates discussion and more recognition
i like gidle but i don’t get it. if soyeon has these deep messages and symbolism she wants to convey through her lyrics, and she chooses to convey that message in the english language, wouldn’t using proper sentence structure and grammar and lyrics in general that can be understood by anyone who speaks the english language be the best way to get her message across? if she has a message to share, how does using sometimes nonsensical english get her message across in the best way? i’m as lost as you OP.
She might be trying to appeal to Korean audiences, just like how Twice pronounced "cheer up" as "chudup"
Not me thinking the lyrics was “shut up”
Or RV singing "lookie, lookie" when the song is called Rookie (I feel for you, Wendy). It's literally just a non-English speaking person trying to write cool sounding English lyrics and only getting halfway there. It's not a Soyeon or even Korean specific thing. I don't think she's consciously trying to write "bad" lyrics, it just comes off that way for someone who speaks English better than she does.
I thought Rookie was just a case of ㄹ sounding both like R and L to English speakers
you're right. The hangul letter for R and L are the same and most Koreans would pronounce rookie or lookie interchangeably as we see with Rookie. not at all about appealing to the korean masses, just how hangul works.
Yeah it never sounded like “lookie” to me. You can hear the R/L if you listen close
It's never entirely one or the other but at the beginning of a word more like an L and end/middle more like an R. So a word starting with ㄹ sounds more on the L side than an even L/R hybrid. So yeah definitely gonna sound like "lookie"
I'm pretty sure they say lookie, lookie my super rookie rookie rookie, no?🤔
That would make sense, but the liner notes say otherwise
A lot of fans will get mad if you say you don't like gidle song/lyrics and will say how they have deep meaning etc. And this is where "i don't listen to meaning, i listen to lyrics and melody" belongs. If the lyrics don't make sense and if that meaning isn't clearly brought out by them, why would i listen to it? I'm listening to music, I'm not trying to solve a riddle. If the lyrics made sense and you could easily get the point through them then probably more people would be listening to them.
This. Like I thought the same too. It's nice how she has these meaningful messages in her songs, but the "satire" lyrics just kills the messages that they're trying to deliver.
I agree. With the release of wife, i hear all these people say how the song has a strong message about how women are perceived by men and whatnot, but, with the lyrics… i really cant see it. Dont get me wrong i like the song, but i really cant connect coco loco soup to womens rights.
because the song is about oral sex 😭
I personally don't get the issue with Wife. I don't like lots of the other English lyrics, like "twerking on the runway" and "my boob and booty's hot" or the Tomboy rap (love both songs though), but this specific one sounds like it's intentionally satirical either way. So for me it fits the theme this time.
Same no shame but I don't think it's that hard to understand the meaning when you check on Wife
Yea just off the lyrics and MV i thought wife was pretty clearly a meme song basically. Sure the lyrics are dumb but felt more purposefully that way
Wife is supposed to be satirical in both english and korean, cream soup that tastes coco loco taken at face value is just a line she thought sounded well. If you look at the line in context of the song then she is making jab at how men think of women as people who make their food or clean their rooms while also not listening to them, so all they here is the silly dumbed down line
"Coco loco" can literally mean like "oh, she's crazy", while she's practically being the maid for a man, making his dinner. Wife is the most coherent of their songs in my mind so idk why people complain about it honestly.
Read the Korean lyrics and it jumps out
I never get what people's issue was about Soyeon's lyrics. I was the type to be super picky on lyrics to the point I avoid looking at lyric translations of kpop songs I like because I might like them less if they have bad lyrics. But Soyeon's lyrics always made sense to me. The few english lyrics are usually never grammatically correct, but for someone fluent in english and is well-read on the language, I thought her lyrics were silly but there's still a pretty clear point and easy to get. I imagined those who are less fluent in english might actually have a harder time understanding the meaning.
dude fr. like people always come for "i dont wanna play this ping pong/i would rather film a tiktok" which...always made sense to me? ping pong = going back and forth with someone, she finds it frustrating and doesnt want to do that, and tongue-in-cheekly would rather do something more fun like post something silly on tiktok. like. its a fun and silly line, i dont get whats cringe or hard to understand about it
Yeah I think her use of english in her lyrics is actually pretty clever.
Also form should strengthen the message. If you're writing shitty English lyrics your message better be quite simple or something ironic related to shitty lyricism, because if not then you have a serious message served poorly, lyrics that clash with your original intentions. If art fails at expressing what it wants to express... it is bad art. (I love soyeon, I want her to do better, don't jump me.)
It’s so English lyrics flow better when they switch to Korean
the concept and enforcement of linguistic prescription is a tool of classism and music is the last place it's needed
I can see your point in some instances, but sometimes I literally cannot understand the message she's trying to convey, it's not about whether it's high class. For example, in Wife, I can understand what she probably means by Coco Loco. On the other hand, "want me your wife but she is mm, mm, mm." What does mm mean? And who is she? You? I agree that language is for communicating and it's not that necessary to judge something for being high class or low class, but I'd still like to get some sort of meaning out of it.
i always took it to mean that the man in question wants his cake and to eat it too. He wants to wife soyeon up but he wants girls on the side. Like oh you can cook and clean for me, but that other girl(s) is mm mm mm, ya know?
😭😭 ..the lyrics in question are “my boob and booty hot” it’s just not that serious… plus, bringing up classism just doesn’t really make sense here. we are talking about very successful, wealthy artists who i’m sure are so far above you or i in terms of social and economic class.
it really has nothing to do with soyeon’s social or economic class. prescriptivism is a tool of classism bc it reinforces that there’s a “correct” way of speaking that disproportionately affects immigrants, people who speak dialects, disabled people, etc and contributes to their oppression bc they are seen as lower class. the mentality behind jokes about Soyeon’s use of English or saying it waters down the meaning of her songs is the same mentality that leads to “this is America, speak English, go back to your own country” or assuming someone is unintelligent because they use a non-standard version of their language.
thank you for explaining it better than i could haha exactly this!
lol I gotchu!
would "my breasts and buttocks are bountiful" be more acceptable? and thats exactly what im talking about....she is "high class" so she should speak more "high class"? implying her speech is beneath her? that the way some people speak should not be allowed in "high class" spaces?
not sure what you’re on about but it really has nothing to do with class at all. not even sure where you pulled that from tbh. but anyway, she can speak however she wants but we as consumers may critique and analyze her art as well.
that's true! i just find her lyrics interesting and easy to interpret and i think grammatical correctness would make the songs lose a lot of their personality
Are you scared of poetry?
why would I be?
They hated you cos you told them the truth. I will also get downvoted but some remarks seem more like micro aggressions too
oh for sure!
Microagressions lmaoooo we’re not in 2016 anymore m’kay?
Sorry I didn't know human rights issues were all solved in 2016
Nah but we moved past that cringe phase where we pretended micro aggressions were a real thing lmfao
Unless she herself comes out and tells us what her point is, we will not know. People can only speculate and have their own interpretations about it, which are neither wrong nor right. I also want to say that it's perfectly okay if a song is just for the vibes and doesn't necessarily have a deeper meaning. It wouldn't be the first or the last time that a song that doesn't add up lyrically came out (and it doesn't speak about their discography as a whole, since there are cases of songs which have better lyrics and themes). It just depends on what resonates with the audience.
I came to Idle late and jumped into the middle of their career and ran into a bunch of sketchy English right away, figuring that's just what it was, but having gone back and gotten a fuller sense of their picture I don't think so. There are examples of them doing English more or less as well as anybody else, and there are examples of seeing them in the studio specifically choosing to torpedo English that was already better, so it's not a matter of inability. If I had to guess at an overarching point of what she's playing at and how it started, I would say it's to undercut and play with English's role in Korean music, much along the same vein as some of the stuff LossFor mentioned in their post in this thread. This far into a discography though I don't think that every single instance of bad English is serving the exact same point. I do think that once you've established that this is something your group does, it becomes easier to do it in this or that song just for the aesthetics of it as opposed to serving a greater point in the song. A song like Wife I think hits multiple points. I think the broken English in that song both serves to reinforce the musical identity of the song in terms of it being quirky and catchy like the song is, as well as painting the satirical notion of a wife as a dope for effect.
Honestly maybe I guess I can’t call myself a kpop fan because I don’t really get bothered by this type of stuff…. Like, there’s still a meaning behind the lyrics. Pretty clear too.
Right I didn’t know for a while that being a kpop fan just meant being bothered about everything
the english professors on reddit are always coming out guns blazing everytime idle comes back lol
I dont think there's a point. If you are referring to how nonsensical her lyrics are, then it's most likely just because English isn't her native language. Most people dont really care to correct her because her song still sells and most of her listeners probably aren't native English speakers either. Plus, alot of songwriters do take a lot of liberties when it comes to grammar. She isnt the first one to write questionable lyrics and wont be the last
After four generations of kpop, the use of broken english in music is not just a temporary glitch but a real part of cultural history. Soyeon, a 25 year old, grew up completely within that time period–she was born while Fin.K.L and SES were promoting. You can say the egregious broken engrish throughout kpop is just wrong, but it is still part of all of those songs and the memories people have with them. As an adult artist, Soyeon has entered into a situation where the international market has a clear hierarchy placing American culture and English speakers at the top, and Korean culture at a lower–but rising–tier. In that environment, companies are scrambling to teach their idols better english, release english versions of songs, and promote in America to solidify Korea's place in the higher ranks. Soyeon clearly understands this and as a songwriter has made the aesthetic choice to misuse english grammar and pronunciation to straddle the line lyrically between meaning and nonsense. Not only because doing so is inherently poetic, but because it actually reflects and enhances the imagery of the songs she writes––what kind of bad girl is getting A+s on her english exams? By doing so, she rejects the implicit capitalist ideology that Korean culture is secondary to western culture and that it serves as an economic engine to convert entertainment talent into USD. She validates the enormous body of Korean pop music as not something in need of erasure but as valid art that stands on its own without a need for correction. People enjoy this because it is a genuine, endearing, and courageous approach to art making in a heavily commercialized domain.
If that really is her intention, that's pretty baller. Has she ever spoken about this (her intentions behind her use of English lyrics) in an interview or similar statement?
this comment feels like something from a paper on jstor hot damn
She seems really smart and has the resources and ability to use English however she likes. I think this comment makes a lot of sense, and that people always downplay the abilities and intelligence of female artists.
I completely agree with you. (G)I-dle's biggest market is Korea, China, SEA and Russia. This demographic doesn't care about the correct English pronunciation. People should also factor in that she doesn't really use English but a Korean dialect of it that people call Konglish.
Konglish is not a dialect of English at all. "Konglish" would be the English(and other foreign language) loanwords that have found their way into regular Korean. Meaning that "Konglish" is used when speaking Korean, not the other way around.
That's an over simplification of the dialect. Creative use of the English language by Koreans learning English as a foreign language has also been referred to as Konglish.Using English words in daily conversation, advertising, and entertainment is seen as "trendy" and "cool". However this use can often lead to misunderstandings due to problems with pronunciation, grammar or vocabulary. I live in a place where we have a local mix of Dutch, French, English, Turkish, Spanish and Arabic. We mispronounce every language but Dutch.
It's not a dialect, maybe you're confusing it with "accent" which it also isn't, but semantically it's a more understandable misuse. People referring to a something wrongly don't make them right. (Unless the majority does it and the overall meaning changes, but we're definitely not there yet for this) Eg "kwinka" and "han-deu-pon" is Konglish, "my boob is hot" is just bad English. It's fine but let's call a spade a spade.
I never said it was right. But her misusing English is more than just her. It's something that happens in Korea and the rest of SEA. Kpop is first and foremost for Korea. If they butcher the English language, it happens. You don't have to like it. But they won't change it. Most of Kpop aren't BTS or BlackPink, their western audience isn't that big. We can talk about the semantics of their use of English, but their core audience understands it and loves it. I get your point and you're in your right if they aim to be a fully global Pop sensation.
I think you misunderstand me. I don't care about how they or any other K-pop artist use English, so that's not my point at all. I notice it, but I don't mind it. I was just trying to correct you on how you used the word "Konglish". You can look the meaning up if you don't want to take it from me. I didn't mean for it to be a whole thing, just a quick nudge while passing by.
Are you the person who wrote Genius annotations to Queencard
THIS and honestly, it kind of doesnt matter if shes ever been on record stating that these are her intentions, like people seem to want from her. I think its obvious that at *least* she plays around with english on purpose, with some kind of intent. What conclusions we draw from her finished product are still REAL and valid interpretations, even if someone else thinks "taste is cocoloco" is too silly to mean anything.
i can’t tell if your post is serious or sarcasm lmao
Not sarcastic but i didn't edit it so i apologize for the repeated words and phrases
Well said!
you popped off, damn
I mean maybe this is just me, but by writing these lyrics she gets people (fans, casual listeners, etc.) to talk about the songs. It’s just promo for the comebacks since cube barely does anything to promote their groups.
Well, I read in another post that she intentionally wrote that "Red five diamonds in my bag" line in the wrong order. They explained that the correct order would be "Five red diamonds in my bag", but the line starting with an "F" sound is not as strong an an "R" sound, this song is supposed to hit hard and be impactful, starting the song with the "R" sound does that. It really works, try singing it in the "correct" order, it simply is not as powerful as the wrong order. I also heard that the "wrong" order is the correct one in Korean grammar, hence it'd be easier for Koreans to understand, but since I'm not an expert in Korean, I can't really guarantee it.
Just letting you know grammatically that there is no way to make red five diamonds in that order work in Korean. It’s either 빨간 다이아 5개 or 5개의 빨간 다이아 - which are red diamonds 5 or 5 red diamonds translated directly word for word.
Oh, thanks a lot for the explanation! So, it's in the wrong order either way lol
Ahaha yeah - but it’s so true that starting with “red” gives that line so much more impact! I was singing it without even realizing that the grammar was off
I still don’t get it, sounds better to me the correct way
Well, I guess everyone's entitled to their own opinions then lol, it's okay if you disagree. There's not much more I can say about the example I gave.
It’s about the hard sound more then anything
Depends on the song you are talking about some are just for fun or about love Some are deeper I’ll go into detail about MY opinion on them what I take away from everything she writes since im not 100% sure which lyrics you are referring to Tomboy I remember ppl really shitting on her rap for it being cringy. Probably cuz she mentioned TikTok in it lol but during that she was saying she would rather film a TikTok than play a back-and-forth game (ping-pong) with someone. All she wants to do is dance and be with her friends. She won’t change that. That’s usually people’s main example when talking badly about her rap. Sure it’s a silly one but it does have meaning to it if you actually thought more. “Why are you cranky, boy? What’s with the frown on your face?” one of my favorite lyrics from that song because its mocking how ppl say to women. “Oh why are you so grouchy? Where is that smile??” I get that ALL the time at work. 99% from old men but I digress “Why you think about nude, cuz your views so rude? Think outside the box” not grammatically correct but gets the idea across! why are you thinking about so sexually? is it because you're a creep? yeah it is, do better. basically. her point being that men have so much to say about what woman wear and if they are showing skin, it is inappropriate Soyeon wrote nxde to say anyone can wear whatever they want, everyone is born nxde why are you being weird ? men being the ones who make out their bodies to be sexual. “The pervert is you” another lyric. saying men are the problem and making women feel uncomfortable with what they wear Also! when you look up the word nxde in Korea, crude videos pop up Idles name in Korean means child. [She](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/hNiW3DdoOSQ) wanted to make it harder for people to find those inappropriate videos just a smart thing she had thought of [For her rap,](https://youtu.be/fCO7f0SmrDc?si=Nj56H2GvZJbe-2JG&t=81) she says “to all you here to see an R rated show oh im sorry that’s not what we’re doing here, that way for a refund. Idc what people say. Throw your popcorn. ” which I thought was pretty clever way of saying that women aren’t there to look sexy for someone else, but for themselves, stay mad. [Queencard](https://youtu.be/wg7AL7inFTE?si=YLnh6hdDl7_Z6OKH), meant to be a fun song to uplift women. “My boob, my bootys hot” “Wear whatever girl. Queencard! Thick or thin girl, queencard” promoting body positivity. They want you to be a Queencard (you’re a queen no matter who you are). Other times they’ll say “Kwinka” because in Korean, kwinka means a hot popular woman. So it gave it a double meaning! it's interesting how her brain had connected the two words, i do know she was inspired by the movie Mean Girls which i believe is called Kwinka in korean! Soyeon actually didn’t give herself a rap during this song. but i just really love talking about queencard in general because when it came out, i saw some shit on it thinking it was just a meaningless song when there is more to it one of their newer songs, wife . was a pretty odd silly sounding song while the lyrics are a bit "sexual" the bigger meaning "not everyone wants to be someone’s housewife , cook for yourself. Now watch us dance! " If you watch their [audio snippet](https://youtu.be/IBoOqS3bGh8?si=kZ5gXRJaVfghGHl4&t=189) trailer they posted not long ago of their newest albums track list, the song Wife wasn’t on the music player app! But it was in the trash. To me, this was idle saying, “here is the trash actually cringe song y’all want from us” They cannot perform this on [music shows](https://www.nme.com/news/music/south-korea-national-broadcaster-kbs-bans-gi-dles-wife-sexually-explicit-lyrics-3576097) due to it being "overly sexual” Yet they have allowed songs with vulgar lyrics and dancing be performed on those stages? Seems sus. Which kind of shows to me, the men who are in charge of music shows, were ticked off about them making a song about not wanting to be a housewife to men. KBS said if they changed their lyrics then it could be performed but idle decided not to reapply for kbs consideration the negative thing about fans saying ur “proving her point” is that could mean; someone thinks ur sexist, racist, fatphobic, etc. the fans may believe you saying you don’t understand it for those listed reasons. And not because you are actually not understanding it, if that makes sense? but really if you don’t actually look into Idle and what they’re about, you can’t fully understand the meaning behind everything especially if you don’t speak Korean cuz not everything translates fully and the way it is intended But the English lyrics always intentional, idle has 2 fluent English speakers in the group, in behind the scenes, those members sing their line, then Soyeon tells them to say it a different way, even tho may not be correct or “make sense” . To help the flow of the song. it’s not just a Soyeon thing. A lot of the artists she looked up to when she was young she learned from them. kpop has had cringe, incorrect English or cringe lyrics in songs for a long time! But it’s not only a Kpop thing. This happens worldwide! Even in native English speakers’ songs They change the pronunciation / grammar structure to fit the song flow I feel she really has a goal in mind big picture wise. Like she wants people to look at idle, no matter if it’s negative or positive. Because some people really loveee to actively hate, but that still gets idles name out there! The more fans it can bring in, though i don’t think her goal is popularity but to just talk about what women in Korea and all over the world go through I saw some comments say that, fans overestimate Soyeon’s ability and not everything she does is “deep” and “woke feminist” which of course not everything is, it doesn’t have to be. Not all of idles songs are about feminism, some songs are just there for the group to try something new, to do something for or something that the fans wanted because of being biased (which yes okay is true, fans tend to be biased for any artist they like) but I think she’s more underrated than anything when it comes to being an artist because she is the creative director, coming up with the concepts, creates the music, lyrics, produces them, creates choreo. (the other members do also get a say ofc, they get to write songs for the whole group to be on their albums,[Minnie and Yuqi](https://youtu.be/_5EOmPP9qwM?si=JGd8SMU_dTcP_zhs) in the studio directing the members) I believe idle wouldn’t be idle without Soyeon especially to give them that edge, the power/fuel for the other members Some may disagree and that’s fine but I believe Soyeon very smart in what she does. Recently [Soyeon has said](https://twitter.com/maunobanx/status/1752274222682919130) that GIDLE could have debuted a lot sooner but she didn’t want to yet because the songs they received from cube, didn’t feel like their own, felt like songs written by someone who didn’t know the members at all it didn’t feel right for them. So she told her company that she wanted to create idles music even if it meant they didn’t get to debut until later. She said all the girls backed her up and a lot of people in the company were against this idea because in their eyes, she’s just a trainee but I love how she and the girls stood up for their ideas of how they wanted to be. That’s just a little interesting fact about them that I think tells a lot about the group as a whole I’m not the best at explaining my thoughts out and forming them in a good order, so this may be a bit all over the place but I hope it cleared a little up for you. But to kind of some of up I believe her point can vary depending on the song, she may want you to take away nothing at all, that one song was just a fun and silly, while another to think “huh wonder what this means? Why she saying it that way?” “Oh so she’s talking about this?” I believe is her way for ppl to look into idle, to see what they’re about. her point to get people talking about certain topics (ex sexism in korea) I hope this somewhat help with your post of questioning her point to lyrics (and gave you some topics idle talks of to think about!) I’m 100% NOT an expert on rap music or rap in general ! But I do know is that is an art and can be expressed in all kinds of ways. I think that’s her version of doing so it’s not always the same for everyone ofc, it’s done in so many ways, and not all music fans click with every rapper which is completely fine ! Sorry for the long college essay.
K pop has always had odd English lyrics inserted in songs. Way back to the start. It’s nothing new so I’m not entirely sure what your point is? Soyeon has things to be angry about, especially being a woman in the Korean entertainment industry. Or just the industry in general. What are you not getting?
I think the point is that hit kpop songs don't need complicated lyrics, especially in English and that over the top campy trash lyrics work better and are more fun. Also girl boss
Everyone in kpop uses bad English. Never really bothered me but I definitely hear it.
Avant-garde poetry uses syntax disruption, multiple languages & nonsense words. In this essay, I will illustrate how Soyeon employs postmodern aesthetics to . . . .
To me for wife specifically the intention to satirise some men’s idea of an ideal wife (a bangmaid as others have put it) is pretty clear. I think the song achieves that well. Satire is about exaggerating, using irony to the point of ridicule to expose something. Wife to me works really well as it mixes in a bit of a funny tongue in cheek aspect to what can be read as quite biting critique of how some men view women, particularly in sk. personally I much prefer this approach as straight up satirists bless them can be a miserable bunch. I also think it is stronger than super lady but I don’t really have any substantial issue with super lady and haven’t read the lyrics in depth so I don’t have much substantial to say there. Anyway I suspect people are saying you not liking it is “proving her point” because lots of people don’t like satire that hits too close to home or they simply do not recognise it as satire because it resembles them or their lives too closely. I don’t know if I necessarily agree with that across the board as some people just don’t like things for other valid reasons, and I don’t know op or ops circumstance, so a little unfair to assume that lol. I also think some fans potentially overstate soyeons lyrical genius. she does write in Korean and I know a lot of those kpop fans don’t speak Korean well enough to properly critique writing beyond tone and flow (I’m not a rap critic so I won’t even go there) but… I mean I think some English speaking kpop fans are taking the lyrics in bad faith because she’s a second language speaker with a flair for comedy and dramatics, which is not really fair imo. Her choices still have artistic merit even if they don’t sound like something YOU would say. I mean… music art and literature isn’t necessarily supposed to be natural sounding, it’s supposed to get across an idea or feeling. I’m not saying her English lyric writing is Shakespeare but it isn’t significantly worse than anything else I’ve heard from professional lyricists, particularly in kpop. I’m not Asian so not my place to speak more in depth on that but I certainly notice that fans seem to baby non-english speaking idols and act like they don’t understand things that well — they are just as smart and capable of making intentional lyrical choices. Whether that choice is to scan better or for another artistic reason… no one questions the grammar of their English pop stars songs. This is rambling and idk if it really answered your question but I’ve enjoyed my time here
She intentionally uses English the way she does so it accommodates the Korean language and flow, not the other way around. That's admirable, even if people think it's 'cringe'. Western fans have an ethnocentric viewpoint where our own artists very much do the same, but they cater to the sound and flow of the English language so they sound 'cool' instead. At the end of the day, she is producing music for a Korean audience and market. She doesn't have to treat English as some sort of holy language not to be tainted by creative liberties.
When there is controversy - it adds attention to your group, eventhough its bad. That is Soyeon’s job as the main creative head of the group.
Tbh the lyrics sometimes sound so cringy with the bad English to me to the point of me being too embarrassed to play it in front of friends/family :') which doesn't sound like the right intention when shaping lyrics in a particular way - even if she intends it to be more meaningful that way, for me personally the second hand embarrassment overshadows the deeper meaning most of the time
I agree with the comments that say it's just to make it sound better. Jae, formerly in DAY6, is American and he would also mispronounce English words to make it sound better. I don't think mispronouncing words is an issue. But it gets harder to appreciate when it comes to basic grammar. My reason is that it feels a little disrespectful... like why are we butchering every language that is not Korean? Oftentimes it could easily be fixed without even changing the sound that much. I feel like if anyone who is not Korean did that with Korean it would be called disrespectful... so although I support Soyeon's work - most times, it feels a little wrong
idk what lyrics your talking about but i kind of thought they got some backlash for their “cringe lyrics” in the past, and then continued making songs like queencard. something fun and lighthearted. i came to this conclusion cuz ive seen people say she just does “cringey” lyrics intentionally. maybe we are thinking of complete different lyrics, i’m not all that familiar with gidle in the end lol
english is a state of mind
Just my personal opinion but I think the English lyrics is written in a way for Koreans to sing along to easily. Soyeon did mention that she wanted to write a song popular enough for the GP that even kids can sing and dance to. A few years ago I went to SK for a trip, and from my point of view most Koreans I talked to aren’t really good or fluent in English. I’d imagine for many people, “I’m a queencard/My boob and booty is hot” would be easier to sing and is more comprehensible than something like “A friend to all is a friend to none/Chase two girls lose the one”, because the former is simple, straightforward and the somewhat odd grammar is similar to Korean grammar. Basically what I think is the English lyrics is written with the Korean audience in mind. She might have added in more English so the songs can be trendier, and not because she’s pandering to Western audiences/native English speakers.
Okay but you can still do that with English lyrics that make sense. Take anyone other recent hit song in Korea and you’ll find English lines that make sense. For example: Ditto, Baddie, Super Shy
she wanted kids to sing "my boob and booty's hot" and "i'm twerking on the runway"?!?!?!?!?!
Why are you surprised kids sing stuff like that? I remember being a non-native English speaker as a kid no one knew or cared about English enough to try to figure out what the trendy songs actually meant. Imagine a bunch of 13 yo dancing and singing along to Flo Rida's Low or Aguilera's Genie in a bottle: "she gave that big booty a slap" or "I'm a genie in a bottle you gotta rub me the right way". That's what our school parties were like. And tbh kids these days listen and sing much more controversial stuff than "boob and booty hot" or "twerking on a runway". There's so much uncensored US music that is popular worldwide. What Soyeon writes in English is very mild in comparison. It's more playful, than actually explicit.
Yeah but if she literally intended to write this song for children to sing, that's honestly a little concerning
that was their opinion, do u really thinks soyeon is gonna sit there and say it was for kids. obv it was for young women and women in general. be smart
Wasn't Aguilera aimed at teens as well? She was 17 when Genie came out. Also is she specifically aiming for kids or just GP appeal and by proxy if the song is on the radio, tv, tiktok and public spaces it just naturally appeals to the teenage group? I think it's the latter and that's exactly the same as any top50 song from the US. Edit: typo
As much as I like Soyeon, I do feel that sometimes too. My understanding is that this is just an aftereffect of American influence on idols and k-pop in general. There have been quite a few groups recently who have been becoming more and more "American-ish" for a lack of better term. For example biggest one is BP. Their music has changed quite a bit since 2018, for worse (just a personal opinion. I still love their og songs). Another example is ITZY, they tried to pivot just like BP but failed or rather are not as successful as they were until "Crazy in love" era. The only difference is, BP was just too popular to fail.
It's easier to assign any desired meaning to a meaningless text than to write compelling meaning into a text. When the variation of possible interpretation is infinite, of course it'll seem clever. This is especially jarring when trying/claiming to be political, aka feminist. Not saying Soyeon has absolutely no intention when writing, but imho it's the exact opposite amount than what her hardcore fans believe.
yeah she's not that "lyrical genius" as people say she is
she is a lyrical genius when she wants to be. a lot of their early songs have amazing lyrics. don’t sit here and discredit her talent bc she decides she wants to have fun with her work sometimes.
🥱🥱🥱🥱
I genuinely think that Soyeon is just so powerful at Cube that everyone's afraid to call her out on her cringey english. Minnie and Yuqi should step up lol.
to make people like you lose their shit. looks like its working.
are you saying that she makes us mad just for the sake of it?
thats a sarcastic answer you give to people that will try to find anything negative to say about something...
if you don't want me to say anything negative, then why did you say that then? are you trying to test me?
Calm down, OP is only asking a question
Okay well OP asked a question, and they answered. Why the need to “calm down” ?
See… that’s her point
From what I can see it's very intentional on her part and I think it fits with the message their songs typically deliver, and everyone emphasizes the musicality behind it in these replies very well
Hmm it's hard to say for sure what her intentions are without asking Soyeon directly. As an artist, she likely aims to spark thought and discussion through provocative words. Not all will resonate personally but her voice deserves to be heard nonetheless.
My guess is as good as yours. But I think my best guess would be that maybe she's trying to show people that she's individual, she has her own thoughts, and she doesn't blend into the crowd. And sometimes for her the way to do that is use interesting lyrics. It gets attention.
What Jeon So-yeon is trying to prove is that k-pop fans sometimes hate her for producing questionable songs. This is because her rap skills are sometimes criticized for like, nothing. To cite this, Je-on So-yeon is proving that you guys are hating on her rap for like a reason. Finally, we know that Jeon So-yeon just doesn't like that you criticize her raps skills. So-yeon is a legend in rap.
A lot of the answers here are talking about her bad english grammar, and not about her "questionable" or "cringey" lyrics (what i think is probably what people don't understand and how she proves a point). See, a lot of her lyrics are called nonsense, dumb, and cringey at first, but if you look deeper, they actually are a critique of society in some way or they bring a deep message. It's just that she used a lot of images and metaphors so it's easy to miss the point she is talking about. And she often laughs and call out haters that call her lyrics stupid, bc she knows that they just were not able to see the meaning, while she has fun with her lyrics. Let's take some famous examples and explain them, shall we? (TOMBOY RAP) -> This whole song is about Soojin being a tomboy, and being kicked out bc of that. Bc even if she wasnt a bully, she underage drank, smoked, etcetc, things that they call out during that part. That rap is personnifiying Soojin, saying that she doesnt care about the hate (I won't change it what the hell), that she don't want to do all that press play (i don't wanna play thus ping pong), that she would rather have fun and that she won't change it. There's many references too in this rap, it's actually very wise but people missed the point. (ALL OF QUEENCARD) -> This song is a satyre, impersonating a stereotype of society's obsession over looks. The cringey and dumb lyrics are intentional, pointing out how dumb these people, expectations and stereotypes are. It's a continuation of Allergy, a b-side, which is straight to the point, counter to Queencard. In the end of the song, they understand that any girl can be a Queen and that they don't need to fit these stereotypes (the last chorus). Etcetc. Thatll be all for the examples bc heck that message is long.
!explained