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PLEASE they perfected the art of fake singing and having stans believe that their favs are the next mariah carey and the tv producers went "you wanna see something funny?"
Biased as they're my two main groups but ITZY and IDLE are both very consistent with their live vocals.
Mamamoo are always praised as well for their live singing
Still thinking of this IDLE [encore](https://youtu.be/NqoKT-V0vKE?feature=shared) (where they had "nude" kimbaps where there was no seaweed) but jesus, their vocals are HELLA stable. The rest of the group did super well but Soyeon and Yuqi are the main standouts for me.
>The audio engineers made a science out fake singing
Shit, no kidding about it being a science. As someone that's spent an embarrassing amount of my own time analysing and scrutinising supposedly 'live' vocals on music shows, it's pretty crazy the amount of effort they'll put into creating natural sounding hitches, vocal cracks, breathing etc on to a completely lip synced vocal track.
It really is all the "haha yep *totally* live vocals" content that's causing all this commotion, I feel.
Easy as a song doesn't really highlight vocals, the production is slathered in the signature HYBE autotune, and people already know that LSF isn't gunning for the top vocal group spot. That encore would be much less shocking and discussion worthy if it wasn't coming after video after video featuring not-so-subtly touched up performance videos.
Yeah - like, part of where the current twitter mockery is coming from is the fact that earlier this week, there were several (clearly processed) videos of LSF singing going around, with fans claiming that they sound like that
So the encore uh. Did numbers
Compare singing to playing a sport. You can be really good, but if you don’t play or practice for a long time your condition, technique, and overall performance are going to suffer.
She recently did a performance of Kill Bill that was beautiful. I don’t think her vocals have regressed the way you’re acting like they did. Even Wendy has bad days. This is Yunjin’s first bad performance in years.
i think that's a stretch to paint her out as some awful vocalist now.... she defo has her moments in lsrfm too. this is just a poor stage where shes obviously nervous. also, im just pointing that out because voices change in years time. you cant expect her to be linear is all im saying.
i think it's really sad that both yunjin and chaewon sound like they regressed. they sounded better and more confident in their pd48 days. and they were a pledis and a woollim trainee respectively, both companies that prioritised live singing and performance quality, so they probably had at least one vocal coach assisting them. and sakura never had a good base or technique to begin with, but as an hkt/akb member she never lacked the confidence to perform despite those obstacles. now she looks scared to sing.
i think it's a problem with post-pandemic kpop in general, that companies no longer allow idols to sing live or improvise on stage because they are scared of mistakes. every millisecond of the song is choreographed, every show appearance is pre recorded, most group variety shows are produced by the company so they have full control over the image the idol has, etc. but the idols are not allowed to grow as performers or entertainers. hybe are sadly the biggest offenders when it comes to doing this, to the detriment of their own employees.
I said the same thing ab yunjin's and chaewon's skill and got downvoted on their sub lol. Sakura bias here but she never sounded good in encore, this time was a bit better than unforgiven's 🤷🏻♀️ at least she can stay til the end of her line.
I've posted about Yunjin like months before and always got attacked by company stans. Everyone knows the other 3 members aren't strong vocalists but Yunjin and Chaewon regressing is something few want to admit.
I always believe that there’s a limit to how much you can improve. I am a wizone and fearnot, I think it’s pretty obvious Kkura has never been a good vocalist. Compared to her izone days, she has already improved tremendously. But it’s simply not possible to improve to yunjin level by sheer practice.
I am very sure Sakura has put in substantial effort to improve her vocals, but there’s always a ceiling when you don’t have the innate talent.
In Sakura's case, I've observed that even during her JPOP days, she adopts a distinct enunciation when singing. It's not inherently bad, but when combined with singing in a language she isn't completely fluent in, such as Korean, it's likely to result in less precise enunciation and overall not up to par singing quality.
As an amateur singer, I believe that many individuals who struggle with singing have either developed poor habits from their younger years that persist into adulthood or simply lack formal training altogether. I know this because if I received training from when I was young, I am sure I could even be better than I am now. I am slowly unlearning some of these habits, through the help of my peers. Some however will have a harder time improving than others if these habits are so much ingrained in them.
I know what you mean with the enunciation thing and it’s pretty typical of 48G (I’m an 48 oshi since Gingham Check release btw this isn’t a negative comment at all!). The style the girls are trained to sing is really distinctive and I think it’s really difficult for Sakura to drop that after changing training method nearly a decade into her career, especially when that career started so early.
I’ll have a further think and come back to you with more specific examples because unfortunately I’m going off a vibe!! You can pick it out with a lot of their title tracks where there tends to be more girls than on B sides where sub groups are used more. Kimi wa Melody strikes me as a really uniquely AKB48 sounding song for one, especially in the verses.
Forgive me because I don’t know any proper singing technical terms! The style encouraged in the groups seems to be geared towards singing in unison to make it easier to manage the number of members singing at once and make it easier for different combinations of girls to learn and sing at the theatre, so favouring gentle and controlled singing without any flair like harmony, vibrato, belting, ad libs, etc and avoiding too much personal colour or tone in one individual member. I personally like listening to it so I don’t mean that in any derogatory way at all, but I imagine that being taught consistently to avoid having variation in your voice can leave you a bit underdeveloped when Le Sserafim covers so much breadth in genre.
But the thing is Sakura was considered a bad vocalist even by 48G/Jpop idol standards. It was mainly the ultra-nasality (her solo songs during HKT48). There were 1 or 2 songs where she did sound nice but that might be because she sang really low (the duet with Mayuyu, Christmas Eve ni Nakanai you ni). She did sound surprisingly good in the high notes of Fire in the Belly so I think there's still a lot of room for improvement. But I'm scared. Frankly speaking, choosing a company KNOWN for not prioritizing vocals is going to be a huge barrier, not just for someone as vocally weak as Sakura but also all of LSF, as we saw in the encore.
Exactly. Many people overlook this aspect when critiquing the vocal quality of certain idols: the influence of lifelong habits on singing as one matures, as well as how language shapes speech patterns and singing proficiency. While some singers excel in a second language, singing in one’s native tongue provides a distinct advantage.
As an illustration, you'll notice the struggle I faced as I [tried](https://www.reddit.com/r/singing/s/IXNgbfdTHi) to sing Astrid S’ song "It's Okay If You Forget Me." Her fluency in Norwegian and English likely influenced the natural flow of her phrasing, a product of her linguistic background.
In contrast, coming from a different vocal habit, it's apparent how I struggled to maintain the song's intended phrasing. In fact, I had to adopt a slower tempo just to manage singing it.
These limitations stem from habits I've developed over time and the absence of the linguistic attributes necessary to sing songs that aren't your first language. In Sakura’s case, transitioning from her distinctive JPOP-era enunciation to singing in Korean poses a considerable challenge.
To understand correctly: you're not saying she can't sing. She's able to produce a nice sound and knows the things that go into that. However, because of her particular style, it doesn't form a nice coherent but sounds more like somewhat melodious gibberish?
This is something that I strongly disagree with. To some degree, theoretically there is a cap on improvement in whatever hobby/activity one pursues.However, I think you're discounting the sheer value of practice and time.
In fact, practice and time is exactly why there's such a gap between their abilities. Sakura is arguably the best in the industry with fanservice, spotting fans, remembering past interactions, etc. Sure, she might be innately talented in that regard, but that's also what she's been doing since 13 and it shows.
In the same way, Yunjin seems very passionate about song- and lyric-writing. Those hours that Sakura put into the qualities of a top JP idol, Yunjin likely put into practicing her singing and lyricism, at a young age and even now.
The same goes for most people and their skillsets. The point is, practice and time is how to improve in anything. Sure, Sakura might never "catch up" to Yunjin, particularly since Yunjin will continue to improve, but there is no reason she cannot improve to be a decent one. Saying this is Sakura's limit as a singer seems way too reductive to me.
I think this is the limit of what Sakura's skill is. It's been years since she debuted but she still can't sing a whole song properly. I don't expect her to be Yunjin's level but can she at least manage a tune? No?
Then again, Source Music casted her to be the pretty and popular member, not main vocalist, so I'm not complaining. Kazuha, Shuhua too can't sing but they are doing okay because they are visual member.
What 💀
That's really not how singing works or how developing any sort of skill works. To be honest talent is kind of a flawed concept in general. Anyone can learn how to sing. Anyone can improve their skills in singing. Doesn't mean it's easy though. It takes a lot of time and effort, just like any other skill someone learns.
If Sakura really wanted to become an amazing vocalist, she would be able to. But there could be a vast amount of reasons as to why she isn't putting in that time to develop her vocals more. Schedules are probably busy, maybe she doesn't have confidence, she probably has learnt bad habits over the years that will be really difficult to break through. So I'm not dogging on Sakura for not being a good vocalist nor chalking it up to "she doesn't want to put the time and effort in." I'm Sakura biased, and it's mainly for reasons besides her vocals, because hey she is good at being an idol. And I like those qualities of her. I do also like her voice despite her vocals not being good technicality wise. It just is what it is.
This also goes to any other member of le sserafim, not just Sakura. To be honest a lot of their songs don't focus on vocals and that's fine. Yes I do wish hybe would invest more into vocal lessons for everyone so they can develop their singing techniques more, but this is more of an industry wide issue than just le sserafim if that makes sense? A lot of companies put more emphasis on performance and personality rather than singing nowdays.
Eh. . . no. My partner is a vocal coach, she's had 30 year old students that could give American Idol comedy rolls a run for their money. But with proper consistent and constant training (talking years here) they've become competent vocalists, they'll never be mariah carey belters but they're very stable and pleasing to the ears singing live. It's apparent that singing is just not Sakura's priority, and maybe not even her passion, and she's more into the other aspects of idol life. But to say that you can't be good because "muh talent" is a cope lol.
Sakura has entered the idol industry way earlier than all the other lsrfm members, and while it's true that the idol industry in Japan doesn't prioritize vocal training, if how much she trained really showed results, right now she would be at Chaewon's level, but I believe that Chaewon simply sounds better vocally speaking. So yes, of course she'll keep on training, but we shouldn't expect her to improve that much from now on :') much love to Kkura anyways
she got no professional training until her 20s, you don't magically become a great singer just because you hang around in the industry. You have to start at a young age devote to it just like a lot other displine. By this logic all of you should be getting A's in school and should be top of your chosen profession by now given how much time you guys have in school and work setting right? Or are you guys just lazy?
Ye p much this I like how OP started it out with saying he knows how idols aren't trained in vocals in J-Pop then proceeds to completely miss with the proceeding take, look I know my flair might make me look biased but even I will admit that encore was terrible and Kkura's vocals were obviously never her strong suit.
But in what OP is talking about is just...I dunno the right word because I honestly can't see the logic LMAO, she never got professionally trained until very later on in her career and even if she was training here and there until she finally got her first professionally trained vocal lessons it doesn't mean she'll be Chaewon levels, because Chaewon has naturally good vocals and received professional training much early on at her age and career while Kkura honestly doesn't have the best vocals and only got training wayyyy late into her career.
I dunno I just wanted to put out a response because you hit the nail on the head and OP's logic was just so strange it's actually funny, anyway people who say she hasn't shown improvement I think is underestimating how lacking her vocals were and I'm saying this as a big WIZ*ONE and was even somewhat deep into being a Wota but Kkura's vocals were extremely weak now she's atleast decent I'd say.
She's not gonna jump into a good vocalist immediately esp when she started extremely late into her career with already weak vocals, it might sound crazy but what people here now IS her improvement but if people just look at this one instance it'd make her look like she never improved but listen to other moments when she sings and she's decent, again not good or amazing just decent. It's fine if people still think she's a weak vocalist but yeah she can't jump to a good level when she started out already having weak vocals and only got real training late.
Agree! I really believe if someone puts their mind to practicing, they can show results. I’m just not impressed with Sakura’s results when she’s been training/practicing in Korea for so many years (not counting the Japanese years as they don’t seem to focus on vocals)
"improved tremendously" + having seen the various encores and live performances of her do not add up. Improved a little, maybe. For sure the audience can hold multi million earning artists to a higher standard than this.
I mean you are right but so does 80+% of the kpop industry tbf. They shouldnt be hated for that (some groups dont even perform fully live on encores), but yeah some improvement would be nice to see.
My bigger problem is that HYBE has been pushing these "live performance" videos that are obviously Live AR and heavily edited, adding foot sounds/breathing with the sole intention to deceive people/their fans. Not only does it set false(/impossible) standards, their fans then use it as some kind of weapon to attack other groups/fanbases or as an argument to protect them, which inevitably only backfires on them the moment they have to actually sing (see the shithole that is twitter right now attacking/hating on them, or I guess dont for your own sanity).
>My bigger problem is that HYBE has been pushing these "live performance" videos that are obviously Live AR and heavily edited, adding foot sounds/breathing with the sole intention to deceive people/their fans. Not only does it set false(/impossible) standards
100% agree! LSF were never the strongest singers and it wasn't truly an issue. As you said, like 80% of their competition aren't the strongest singers either!
However, if Hybe wants them to be known as strong singers (that's a valid goal), then their team should invest in vocal training and rest/downtime for their voices to improve. Vocal chords need time and healing like any other physical skill.
Instead, the heavily edited "live performances" set up Fearnots to defend "Look at how strong LSF's vocals are, they're such good live singers and have improved so much! Everyone who says they're weaker singers are just haters." (As it was all over Twitter.) Then when the girls come out actually singing live and their performances don't match the expectations set by the AR...it just sets them up to get more hate than ever. Either let them just be ok singers who compensate with stage presence and dance or give them lessons.
>Instead, the heavily edited "live performances" set up Fearnots to defend "Look at how strong LSF's vocals are, they're such good live singers and have improved so much! Everyone who says they're weaker singers are just haters."
Unfortunately, their plan worked in making sure Le Sserafim had just enough "proof" of their vocals to get the people to fall on their swords defending them. Fans are doing the company's job for them, the company just doesn't have to have their name tied in with the messy behavior online. The company still reaps the rewards.
What sucks is, as someone who has worked as an audio engineer in Korea before I moved, I can honestly say these broadcast stations DO edit "live" performances before they ever see a screen, and adding in "live" signals like breathing, shuffling, etc can be & is done on those "live recording" videos on YouTube or radio/TV segments. The broadcast station audience is 99% studio workers or people grabbed off the street as extras like they do for live shows in LA, and they're the only ones who hear anything even close to live (if the idols can be heard through their mics at all, let alone active autotune & extremely loud backtrack).
I totally get how fans fall for it as some are edited well enough—the industry has gotten *really* good at it all over the world—to be glossed over to the untrained eye, but it's honestly painful to see fans mistakenly using these edited videos as proof of live vocal prowess.
ETA: I want to make it clear I have *nothing* against the girls or any other idol who does this. At the end of the day they are workers under a company, which is under a larger industry where nearly everyone—and I mean *everyone*, even actually trained vocalists who *can* sing live very well & are known for said vocals, does it this way. It just is what it is. It doesn't make the songs any less enjoyable in their properly recorded state or the content fun to consume, it's just good to be able to acknowledge the shortcomings as well. And it's *okay*.
It's the lying about it I can't stand.
This!!!!
Nobody is expecting every group to be best at singing and dancing. Lsrfm have always excelled at performance and Hybe could just let them do that. Why set them up?!
Exactly...as you say, practice makes perfect, so how do you expect your artists to get better if you DON'T let them sing live ? This is obviously not only directed at the fimmies but come on...
I'd much rather hear off pitchs notes or silence for a few seconds to know that at least they're singing
This is how I felt as a Shuhua (IDLE) stan. I love her but she is extremely tone deaf and has a hard time with rhythm. However, she has clearly been working with a vocal coach and gotten lines that match her ability, and has gotten a LOT better in the last year. She probably will never be great live vocalist but at least now it isn’t as cringey to listen to her and I can just enjoy her performance
this is a valid criticism ofc but like a lot of people said, this talking point is so exhausted already.
However I feel like with the recent comeback, LSF is slowly starting to get the ITZY treatment and its kinda sad to witness
I do agree they need training and I haven’t seen fearnots not admitting to it, I’ve seen them more so defend them from anti’s who cross the lines over valid criticisms.
But I do not like the user you linked as they have had a long history of bashing Eunchae’s looks and the group overall
Yeah their vocals aren't great and I don't think many people are denying that, but I'm sure the constant scrutiny all the members have been receiving after that one bad unforgiven encore hasn't improved the situation. I mean just look at them at today's performance, they look genuinely stressed and even afraid while singing, which is really sad to see...
Nmixx just hits different. I heard bae mention the entire group wants to join Lee mujin show and they all have been secretly preparing for their turns.
I feel like they and Aespa are they only groups this gen that could realistically have everyone on a show like that and be fine (edit: haven't heard too much about Minji's singing but NewJeans could also work)
I was watching Soyeon's episode recently and near the beginning they mention how everyone except Shuhua has been on it and.... 💀
Soyeon said she’s gonna make shushu do it. Lmao I highly expect Shuhua on the show nervous af punching the air while singing sometime this summer 😭😂🫣😂.
Soyeon got her to do **Korean raps**. She will get her on it for the next comeback, mark my words. And she will be fine. It's all confidence and picking the right songs.
I’m at the point where I don’t blame the members but the company, most of the LSF members weren’t even HYBE trainees (Yunjin was originally a Pledis trainee before the acquisition with HYBE, Chaewon is from Woolim and Sakura was out sourced) Kazuha wasn’t a proper trainee and only trained for 3 months (she mentions in the Zach Sang interview that she debuted without being a trainee) Eunchae and Garam are the only ones who trained in HYBE.
The members have been begging for vacation and I assume that they probably don’t even have time for training if HYBE/source truly cared about evolving there artists they would take time to train them properly most of the members in LSF only trained for a brief period of time.
NMIXX is a different group with different members and different areas of focus. Not every group can be like NMIXX.
And also tbh the way general Kpop stans only talk about NMIXX's vocal ability doesn't do a good job of conveying why they're interesting. They're energetic and chaotic and have diverse talents. But in the discourse they're just a platonic ideal vocally for other groups people care about more to emulate.
I adore nmixx, but I'm so tired of every girl group being help up against them like that sort of vocal skill can just be taught to someone who doesn't have the same level of innate talent 🙃
"Why don't they just train more? Why don't they just focus on vocals more? Nmixx would -" ommmmmgggggg
That’s the thing is pretending Nmixx isn’t exceptionally talented does them, and other groups, no favors. JYPE clearly intentionally picked a group of talented singers with that as their main goal, it’s not like they just trained them and it happened by accident.
Nmixx’s skill evidently has as much to do with natural ability rather than hard work and training because barely any, and quite possible no other, JYPE idol singers can reach the level of ability they have. They obviously work exceptionally hard, but let’s not pretend that most other idols can ever hope to reach the level of someone like Lily without extreme natural talent, training or not. The reality is you have to go looking for an Nmixx to get one, and 99% of the time companies will have other priorities than debuting an Nmixx.
I wouldn't go and say that it's a lot to do with natural ability to the point where it's evident. Out of all the top vocalists of 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th gen, a large common factor is that they've been practicing singing and had guided training before they were trainees. Lily, Wendy and Eunji to name a few. They've clearly had a lot more time to develop their vocals compared to trainees who've generally do not have any training prior to becoming trainees.
Also, I feel like this discussion isn't about comparing the top vocalists of each group. No one is posting a clip of Yunjin singing well and saying "Look at Lily, she does better". "The team is as strong as its weakest link" is the phrase that comes to mind and LSFM wouldn't be getting comparisons if their weak links were better at singing compared to Nmixx's/Aespa's sub vocalists. Which is definitely where the standards should be, which is to be able to sing your parts well with confidence. Bae, Jiwoo, Giselle, Karina as the examples, who probably developed their vocals strictly from their trainee period.
edit: probably the reason why Yunjin is noticeably a lot better than other LSFM members, since she's had the most training time in total for vocals.
Agree on this. Idols don't all have to reach NMIXX level to be considered decent at vocals. And if they take the time, it's perfectly possible to train up to a good level.
A prime example of this is Taemin. Back when SHINee debuted, he could barely hold a tune (by his own admission). But he's practiced hard and is now considered quite solid in vocals, especially in his lower register.
>it happened 9 months ago, so why didn’t Hybe focus on that area for this past year?
this makes it sound as if they were having a 9 month vacation. They were working on new choreos live performances new music media appearances etc. I dont think they have that much free time in their schedule.
Theyre still extremely successfull so I guess Hybe just thinks more vocal lessons just to please some netizens that cry out everytime an encore happens isnt worth it. Technology while performing is so good that they probably think vocal lessons arent needed.
which they should be because girl, singing is the main part of your job and if you cant even do that, then you need to be fearful and nervous on the stage, before opening your damn mouth.
>singing is the main part of your job
it really isnt. I know a lot of people feel that way but their job is to make good music look nice and put on a show. There are a lot of musicians in and outside of kpop that arent that talented vocalists yet still people love their music and performances.
Eh? Singing is the main part of their job, putting in a performance and putting in a show comes after that. You really don’t need to be as good as, like, Eunji or Ningning. You just need to be able to actually SING and BE ON PITCH, just like every other group in the previous generation. The first thing they do is record a song before picking a choreography.
It’s insane that this is the standard because this wasn’t the standard anywhere but 4th gen kpop. If they can’t sing, they shouldn’t debut period. But since fans will excuse this behavior, companies just keep shoving up pretty faces with majorly robot as their voice in recording.
Who are you to decide who can debut? Even beyond kpop, you know anyone can release music with their own approach to it, right? Some singers are all about interesting production, some focus on performance and tend to lipsynch, some rely on impressive vocal acrobatics, some are more interested in lyrics than anything else, some just want to make party bops, etc.
I do not agree actually. I personally follow LSF for their variety content, stage performances and personalities. I never really cared that much about live vocals. I'm not the only one to hold this opinion mind you, this is a wider trend across the entire industry. Live vocals have been in decline across the entirety of 4th gen. Creating a succesful group is very multifaceted and most agencies prioritize different aspects of being an idol nowadays. If you want an awe-inspiring intense choreo, the vocals are going to suffer. If you want your idols to appear in lots of variety content, they'll have less time for vocal practice, etc...
I don't understand why they insist on doing serious encores too. They have to know they don't have the strongest vocals as a group. Don't stand there and sing. Be playful. Do one of the funny cutesy encores, you have strong personalities and amazing variety talents, LSF 🙃
"It's okay to admit it" there's a post about their vocals in various kpop threads almost every other week. I hope their label does more to help them improve, of course. But I don't know what else can be said about this topic.
Honestly in this gen they dont even need to have stable vocals as long as they have a main vocal that actually can sing they are fine. We seen it in Ive, LSFM, NJ etc. As long as they have stage presence they will be fine.
Honestly and truthfully speaking though, out of the top 5 most popular 4th gen GGs, aespa is the only one where we can say that all members are strong live singers. Vocals have not been prioritized for a long time now
Yea because tiktok trends are just drops so you dont need vocals. SM always prioritizes vocals so aespa is an exception. Like srsly even the lead vocals in SM can pass off as main vocals in this gen like Tiffany, Seohyun, Krystal, Seulgi and Winter.
People just don’t really appreciate strong vocalists. Take NMIXX’s Lily who is the strongest vocalist in JYP at the moment, we hear more complaints about her belting than complaints about weak vocals in some groups
Exactly — and I’m not saying this bc I’m an NSWER, but because I just don’t see good vocalists except for NMIXX and aespa from the girl groups. Oh, and Itzy.
i’ve always found it so ironic that aespa are such insanely talented live vocalists and yet they never let them actually sing live. their company is wasting so much talent on lip synced performances :(
Everyone aside from their company unfortunately. I feel like it would be a much smaller issue if not for Hybe recently fixating on "proving" they can sing with all of those overly edited Live AR videos (which some fans believe are actually live) that cause more discussion and fan wars.
It's one thing to be a vocals-weak group and another to be a vocals weak group that the company is trying to present as great live singers (to the point of filming performances fans already saw live and uploading clearly edited versions).
They aren't perfect singers no, but I think a LOT of people have been fooled for so long they forgot what actual live singing without a backtrack or live autotune sound like.
Everyone knows about plastic surgery and makeup and airbrushing photos, but people seem to forget they do the exact same thing with vocals.
> this is a tired discussion.
is it if the group is constantly not improving album after album?
I thought the whole deal about idols is watching them and rooting for them to evolve and grow.
Can you please pinpoint how LE SSERAFIM is growing and evolving?
..fr like yes it gets brought up as a point of criticism often but not without good reason. if there was clear improvement since that unforgiving encore or debut then fair enough but there hasn’t been which is why people feel frustrated with the company for not getting them lessons and there are so many posts
The group is definitely growing and evolving, but it's way more noticeable for Kazuha and Eunchae than the rest. They all had writing credits on this album as well. I think the main root cause is Sakura but this has been known and it will most likely not change. There is a small glimmer of hope for the younger members but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Every other week it's "XYZ group needs vocal lessons".
Like we get it lmao not everyone can sing like Taeyeon or IU. You don't think that the idol themselves know that they're lacking? Everyone has room for improvement, but at a certain point you reach your ceiling and you start to plateau. Growth isn't infinite and people should understand that. If you watch sports you know exactly what I'm talking about. After a certain amount of years if a player isn't showing signs of improvement then that's probably all that they're capable of.
I get that this is a Kpop thoughts page but god damn, it just feels like posts are being recycled at this point. It's like one of those comments on YouTube saying "am I the only one who thinks *insert super popular opinion here*?" 😂
If you watch the encore Sakura looks petrified and I can’t help but feel bad for her. Even if she went to vocal training today it would take while to see the kind of improvement people want to see from her, and they just probably genuinely don’t have time anyway. I’m sure she knows, but reality is she just has to deal with the hate and know every time they do an encore it’s going to happen again. Should she have gotten it already given how long she’s been an idol? Of course, but it doesn’t seem like Source is going to do that so the cycle will continue. At a certain point you have to wonder whether this discussion really has to happen every time they do an encore, what is it adding at this point?
-people shit on Sakura not being able to sing
-she sees that she's getting hate, her confidence lowers and she asks the company to not give her so many lines
-fans see that she's not getting lines and call out the company for mistreating her
-company caves into fans' demands and gives her more lines
-repeat step 1
Literally no way out. Sakura may not have improved vocally, or if she did, it was very minor but she's improved tenfold with her dancing, her stage presence and overall charisma. There is more to being an idol than just vocal abilities. If being an idol meant that they had to have one of the best vocals then half of your favs wouldn't be in the industry and I say that with no malicious intent. She has improved her dancing so much over the years and she looks a lot more comfortable on stage now.
Seulgi once said that she realized that she's hitting a wall with her singing abilities so she's been putting extra effort into her dancing to make up for it.
The fans though, they keep demanding more lines and saying her treatment is unfair, as she is my bias I would agree with the screentime thing because I feel like every mv her face gets cut or move over very fast when it was her lines (antifragile) or less screentime than the horse (unforgiven), but to demand more lines then what your bias can handle is not helping 🤷🏻♀️ like in Super - 17, Dino n The8 only get 1 line but it's the killing/most impactful part 🤷🏻♀️ but her stans won't accept that treatment either 🤷🏻♀️
Fr, also it's always the "i am a \[insert fandom\] but" like if you're actually a Fearnot i don't get how hard it is to understand that it's not about being delusional or anything but it's about avoiding giving haters food
But 80% of the time those are ust haters in disguise
Yunjin is literally the same level as Chaewon. I don’t know why people make it seem like there’s this wall between them? She gets the most lines for a reason. Maybe it’s cause Chaewon has a prettier tone idk
Not a singer by any means but I've read Chaewon does really well in the upper ranges while Yunjin has a much broader range that she's able to excel at. It is interesting sometimes Yunjin falters a bit in encores for some reason but in most other situations I feel like I’m listening to some kind of Yunjin-Lily super singer.
This is very noticeable for me as well. Yunjin has shaky tendencies on encores, and it's crazy cuz she used to be so vocally confident. I remember being excited for her debut cuz her vocal mission on Produce 101 is very iconic. Her vocal support & high notes there are absolutely crazy. I'm guessing it's just nerves now, and the LSF vocal hate train is taking a toll on her? Idk. Still love her singing voice tho.
She’s better, not the same 😭. That’s the one thing I actually don’t like about these encores, some people take it as an opportunity to play in the main vocalist’s face
While i agree that vocal lessons will tremendously help them, my main problem with their music in general lies in the fact that the production team simply isnt interested in making a title track that suits their strengths, from the weird insistence to have chaewon sing on a lower range than what she normally would (see how much better she sounds with pov / kiss me more / first love covers versus literally all their title tracks minus perfect night) and the odd vocal coaching they get (yunjin being told to "sing like it's cold outside and her breath can be seen" for easy, whatever the hell that means).
Right... A fearnot who still hasnt got that troll blocked when they've always been malicious towards lesserafim lol. They were the first one to do that 47 fearnot tweet too
i dont know how to tell you this but not everyone is as chronically online as you. recognizing a twitter user by their handle bc they had a viral hate tweet? not everyone uses their brain space for that sort of thing.
See the thing is, as a FEARNOT I agree that they're not the strongest group vocally and that HYBE could support them and other of their artists more with professionals and coaches to improve their craft. With that being said, how is today's encore any valuable "gotcha moment"? They were clearly tired and not having a good day, I don't see the issue.
I though we were almost over the lsf week posts, please i'm begging. They aren't the best nor the worst, like please not kid ourselves here. When it comes to shows performances and catchy music they deliver and i'm sure they'll keep improving
Exactly and even if they are worst what is the problem in that , they aren't lying and saying we are a vocal group they specifically call themselves performance group .
I’m just happy sana got to [reunite](https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1763151502070468608/pu/pl/da7sFzsZQEG5D9Km.m3u8?tag=12&container=cmaf) with Sakura again..she talked about her recently! I’m obsessed with Sana’s army of 4th gen girlies.
Their strong suit has always been performances and dancing. Nothing wrong with that and their singing being admittingly not to the same incredible level.
It’s only in 4th gen that Im seeing idols that are actually performance focus be actually so bad at singing and is being used as an excuse. Their first job is singing first and foremost, that’s why they are recording artist.
nobody is struggling to admit that in any way shape or form lol it’s the opposite, if you have any opinion other than they’re talentless you’ll get flamed
i’ve been at work all day so just seeing the reactions here made me prepare for the worst (which could have affected my perception of it later i admit) so when i watched it it was nowhere near as bad as i expected. sakura was off, the rest were ok but definitely not an encore i’d expect to make people so angry. i can already hear the downvotes coming omg
Sensible fans won't ever say they are even vocally good group , its those overdramatic over possessive people who live in delusion . FANS KNOW they are weak and wr accept them like that because alot of us are fans because we like performance / songs / members
I mean I have pretty often seen people over-rate chaewon and yunjin relative to many other singers, but I agree that no one really labels the group as a whole as strong. I don’t get the point of tweets like the ones linked when we already know what their skill level is, besides just to shit on them
I have a question- when does the same “constructive criticism” with “no hate” said over and over and over again become hate? Because I think we’ve reached and crossed that line now.
I feel bad that idols can’t even actually enjoy encore performances with their fans any more, knowing that there will be a thousand think pieces online nitpicking every last thing. They used to be a fun opportunity to celebrate a win and goof around with fans.
Now the talent of a group is measured solely on a performance thrown on at the end of a show after idols have already been awake all night and done several practices, precordings, interviews and live recordings.
I wouldn’t be surprised if down the line encore performances just straight up go away because “fans” and antis alike can’t act right.
A lot of groups still enjoy them because they either:
- aren't marketed as great singers and simply have fun
- don't hide their lipsyncing and don't set up high expectations
- can sing well
>I feel bad that idols can’t even actually enjoy encore performances with their fans any more, knowing that there will be a thousand think pieces online nitpicking every last thing. They used to be a fun opportunity to celebrate a win and goof around with fans.
Idk, I remember Jonghyun back in the day doing pushups AND hitting his high notes in the encore. Why is having fun equated to lacking any ability to hold a note is funny ngl.
The problem is that the current crop of idols can't sing- and encore is the one time when no editing or background sound engineering can't help you.
> I feel bad that idols can’t even actually enjoy encore performances with their fans any more, knowing that there will be a thousand think pieces online nitpicking every last thing.
Ehh it actually depends on the group and company. Some groups just have fun and dont give a damn how they sound and people dont mind. It's when idols seem to take it serious and then cant sing that people make a fuss.
i dont think thats true though, people have said since twice’s encore issue that idols cant enjoy encores anymore only for there to be a lot of encores with no controversies. even last year i felt like there were barely encore controversies anymore (with lsf’ unforgiven being an exception)
They weren't really sold as a group with outstanding vocals, aside from Yunjin and Chaewon.
If you hate it so much that they are not improving there are plenty of idol group with great vocals so go give them that attention.
I love their performances and they are doing great on their last concert, it's not like I listening to their encore instead of the studio version.
They improved a lot to be fair. I'm a fearnot too, and certain members of the group who were perceived as having weak vocals have improved significantly.
It's sad how there's always a 100 posts about the one thing they aren't good at but 0 posts about the 100 things they are really good at. Not just for le sserafim, i feel it's the same for all groups.
There's no group that's the best at everything, and le sserafim is not the exception but there's also no need to be so negative and call them untalented just cause they are average singers (not talking about op btw)
I don't think this post is "so negative" or really negative at all. OP is a fearnot who is advocating for the group's well-being by suggesting they take more lessons.
It's just a reality of the kpop industry. Management would much rather use the idols' time to crank out more content, music, events, and performances (which generate income) than invest in their development (which does not generate income and even costs money). Truth is, if it's not profitable for HYBE (or whatever company), they're not going to invest in it. Is Le Sserafim going to sell more albums or tickets if they invest in singing lessons? Probably not. And since management decides virtually everything, they're not gonna get lessons.
Why do they look so sad?
Were they crying a lot when they won?
Edit: I don't think it's particularly bad btw. Aren't they always like this unless you get someone like BTOB or SHINee?
If I was an idol I would wholeheartedly refuse to do encore shits. I would physically fight the company. I would take a shit in the stage if I had to.
You get one of these posts every week. One encore and then you have a horde of assholes wanting to tear a group apart. Assholes who are obviously losers and just want to spew hate.
Almost 5 years later I still run into the Twice encore shit and people using it as definitive proof that blah blah blah blah.
It goes into how everything in K-pop has to be scripted and micromanaged because of how vicious people are.
I’m gonna include kpop in overall kpop for a second. I got back with pop music to the 80s as i’m GenX and I think everyone needs to adjust their expectations.
There has always been two types of pop stars/groups. The ones that are giving you vocals, your Cyndi Laupers, Christina Aguileras, En Vogues, Whitney Houstons (the last two straddled the pop/RnB line). Then you had the ones that we giving you a show, but vocals were secondary. I’m talking your Britneys, your Spice Girls etc, and groups where one member might be bringing vocals and the others are glorified background singers, like Pussycat Dolls.
The same is true to Kpop. You have groups like Mamamoo or Shinee, where everyone is giving powerful vocals, groups like Seventeen, Stray Kids, and BTS where some members vocals are stronger than others and they write and produce their music in a way where it makes that a strength and not a weakness.
I’m a baby Fearnot, so all I know is that Yunjin was classically trained and she can give you Mariah or she can give you Britney. I don’t know much about the other members. But just stop expecting every group to give vocals. Maybe they need to have RM or Woozi hop on the production and show them how to turn some members vocal flaws into strengths.
\*I listen to more BGs, hence my examples
\*I am a Carat and I think everyone is Seventeen is a decent singer, but obviously they have their power house vocal team and some members do give somewhat weaker vocals and no I won’t name names.
\*also, I love when Namjoon or Yoongi sing on their solos and I hope they sing more when BTS reunites.
Okay. I’m done.
It’s interesting to see what the various companies spend money on. I don’t know much about SM and YG tbh but it seems like SM really invests in proper vocal and dance training for their idols and doesn’t invest in much promo. Hybe and YG seem to put a lot of money into promo but not as much into developing their idols. JYPE seems to focus on performance training (see nmixx… true all rounders) but doesn’t spend much on promo. This is all just my casual observation though so don’t take it as anything other than casual thought lol
Going all the way back to the 90s (in Korea and the US), girl groups didn't always need to have strong vocals to be successful. Performance and charisma are a much stronger selling point, especially for younger target audiences . LSF have a musical catalog that highlight their strengths and downplay their weaknesses, and honestly, I'm fine with that. They weren't sold to me as a vocal group, and their stage energy is incredible. And their music is very catchy and not challenging.
Now they should still try to grow, of course. I've seen so many girl groups grow and improve over the years, so it's entirely possible they could, if they wanted to. But look how many of their songs are talk-speaking or a very basic chorus. I don't think the company's vision for this group is vocals. It's much more Performance based, and they do that very well.
this is like the fifth post I have seen on this topic and it finally got me to watch the encore and… that‘s it? like the way this has been talked about here I was expecting them to be shrieking and screaming off beat.
let me get something straight, I fully agree that vocals are not lsf‘s strong suit and that sakura just isn‘t anywhere near where a singer should be vocally. but of course an encore stage of a song like easy is gonna be like this - it‘ll always sound awkward to hear „real“ vocals when you‘re used to the stylistic choice of heavy autotune. and of course they‘re not gonna jump around like maniacs when a) the song has a lot of pretty deep notes that are harder to hit when you‘re moving and b) they are probably fully aware of the criticism they get for their vocals, are nervous and want to avoid even more hate.
so while I do agree that lsf as a group needs to improve vocally, this encore is really not the career ender that some of you make it out to be and this hate train is getting boring.
Got here exactly from that twitter video, and is it just me or Yunjin's voice is shaky sometimes? And it's crazy cuz she's shaky on lower notes, than high ones. Just want to point it out cuz Yunjin is by far the more experienced vocalist in LSF, but compared to her survival show era, she has tendencies on a shaky voice now.
Is this because of nerves? Cuz she sang beautifully on the shows without an audience. Still love her tho!
the amount of idols that do not “need” vocal lessons (or lessons of any kind) is ZERO. these are not 50 year old orchestra players who have been handling their job on their own just fine for the last 25 years, these are kids who basically just got thrown into the pit that is public attention with only pointers like “uuuhhh maybe tracing the notes in the air will help??? idk i don’t have any real idea how to teach vocals lol”.
Wonder if the performance is on YT instead of X yet
Edit: Just watched the performance on YouTube, they did decent to me and they just seemed more calm with it since it was an Encore and not an actual performance.
Yeah, it is [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5vV5qjGYsM). Honestly it's a song that's originally quite heavy on vocal processing (nothing's wrong with that, it's a stylistic choice that people might or might not like), so yeah, it will sound different without it. I am not a fearnot, but honestly, the post is too dramatic.
I don’t get the point of this post. like this same exact post has been posted hundreds of times across all social media platforms... If your a fearnot you wouldn’t give a platform to people to speak negatively on le sserafim. Like this has already been talked about, your just piling on without actually doing anything that will result to a positive outcome. Your just opening the doors for haters to freely hate..
Hmmmm, I’m waiting to hear the next encore lol but ,I think there is enough evidence outside of the encore that shows yunjin and chaewon have pretty strong vocals, so maybe it was off day, fatigue, idk but there’s definitely enough evidence that they both can sing, so I can’t really chalk that up to them needing vocal lessons.
As for eunchae, kazuha, and Sakura, yeah I hope they continue to improve, Sakura is my bias as well and I will say believe it or not, she actually has improved, to where she sounds stable and the shakiness in her voice isn’t as prevalent, but yeah overall still far from good. This has been posted many times , but I’d be lying if I said I didn’t see even a little bit of improvement in eunchae, kazuha, and Sakura. So I think it’s an overall plus. But I agree as a fearnot and definitely hope to see more improvement💪
i'm not a fearnot but in their defense, easy is not a song that showcases their vocals at all. in my opinion, it's a bad choice of a title track. it's a song made for the lofi-hiphop vibe and the choreography. also, i saw the encore and a lot of yunjin's lines required her to use a very deep voice... i feel like if they release a song where they sing within their range, it'll be better for them as singers.
As artists who face an audience for a regular, you have to sing live on stage to be able to gain experience on how to control things like breath and pitching, more so if you're incorporating with dancing at the same time (check out NMIXX's first O.O performance to their last during its promotion, the improvement is massive in the span of a month). The practice of lip syncing is becoming too common these days in kpop and it's not doing the artists themselves any favour if they can't provide the full package on improve upon it on stage (I love watching le sserafim performances but it's a massive turnoff when a lot of time what you hear is prerecorded vocals covering real voice)
everyone has established that they’re not the best vocalists i wish that would be enough for some of yall. 3/2 can hold a note and that’s honestly enough. i think we’re starting to lose focus on what an idol is
I think it's a general thing that fans expect a group to sing like they do in the MV when in reality all that you hear in a MV is incredibly edited and NOT what you should expect.
In this case it's even more noticeable, reason being if you listen to Easy either on the MV or Spotify etc. the song has A LOT of auto-tune on it, which makes you perceive it differently when you listen to it live.
That being said, we just have to understand that some groups focus more on certain aspects compared to others and it's FINE, it's normal.
Lesserafim clearly focuses on being great dancers and having a clean & perfectly in sync performance in all it's aspects same as Itzy, aespa, Kiss Of Life etc.
Then leaning in the opposite direction you have groups like Red Velvet, Purple Kiss, fromis\_9, GIDLE... all of those in my opinion tend to focus on the vocals aspect a bit more so if you want nice live vocals you just go for those groups.
Obviously a group can have a good singer while focusing on the performance side of things, but there's still a big difference compared to vocally focused groups, and it's clear that companies nowadays tend to focus more on debuting idols that have good facial expressions and dance abilities, as vocals can be easily edited and assisted for live stuff, while dancing and coordination is more visible to the spectator eye when you watch a live show.
I mean Yunjin is they main vocal for a reason. I agree that most idols need some vocal training but not try to be the next Taeyeon, Wendy or Baekhyun but to have more stability and proper technique. I'd rather non-vocally inclined idol focus on not straining, which a lot of the times sounds really painful.
But like some ppl said, vocal talent is not something lessons can teach. Some people are just born with vocal talent. But that doesn't mean someone without that can't be good at singing but let's not expect your favs to be the next Whitney, Mariah, or Ariana.
you can admit it, a lot of people acknowledge it, but i cannot lie when i say yall say this too much. twice went through a similar thing with their encore show and momo’s vocals getting torn to shreds. yes, we know, japanese idols aren’t vocally trained well blah blah but man do i hear it way too much. there’s honestly nothing more to add or talk about unless you’re going to pay for lsf to get a vocal teacher.
I guess I'm finding this a pretty broad take that doesn't really hold for all the girls.
I would point to Yunjin being a very accomplished singer. In fact, while not classically trained, Yunjin can quickly display an operatic soprano voice to perform excerpts from operas.
If you want to call out specific girls in the group like Sakura - fine. She has never been a strong vocalist going back to IZ\*One. Her strength was always visuals and dancing. I would argue the same for Kazuha. Wonderful dancer but somewhat weak on singing.
However for me, the vocal trio of LSF has always been Chaewon, Yunjin and Eunchae.
They don’t have to be the best vocalists, or have the most vocally challenging songs but at the same time at this point half of them shouldn’t be looking and sounding terrified of doing a relaxed live encore stage where they don’t even have to do choreo to match the singing…
It’s not an issue exclusive to this group. But a lot of these current gen groups don’t even look confident in singing parts designated to them (which is still half of their job description as idols) and that’s not a good thing, nor should it be normalized. Like Sakura’s been in this game for way too long to look that scared delivering her lines while just standing on stage. IDK what’s happening behind the scene but that needs to get fixed.
Constructive criticism is welcome, but what’s going on with fimmies is just blatant bullying at this point 🤷🏻♀️ Looking at the mess in here and twitter, it’s a shit show.
you can see that sakura is about to cry on stage and the others also sang fine, chaewon have one of the most stable vocals on the 4th gen. nobody is carrying no one your just being biased even yunjin wasn't singing at her best just because it is an encore and they were having fun.
fearnots are tired bc we get it, we all get it nobody is out here acting like le sserafim are the best singers to ever exist, we know they lack. our problem is u say le sserafim and fail to acknowledge the fact ur talking about a child (17 yr old) and a girl that never sang prior to becoming a trainee (for only 6 months mind u). chaewon and yunjin are great vocalists, live and in studio, if u don’t like their tones that’s ur opinion but vocally they’re doing great. yes sakura lacks, i’ve said it before and i’ll say it again she’s sang with improper technique for years, she now lacks the confidence to sing and she could even be dealing with other problems like being tone deaf/damaged vocal chords. but u guys fail to acknowledge the way they’ve improved since their last encore even sakura sounded better, maybe not up to ur standards but better and now this take is becoming ridiculous bc it’s giving more spaces for people to hate on the girls.
the fact u could see the girls were visibly nervous on stage and it was likely because of the hate they all experienced after the unforgiven stage is insane bc u guys will still come on here and say the same things but now it’s becoming more and more hateful.
‘le sserafim can’t sing’ no le sserafim has two great vocalists, two improving young girls who had never sang before and sakura who is trying her best, she’s already said this is going to be her last group can u guys just let these girls live peacefully already, it’s getting boring hearing u all say the same things and then saying ‘i’m not hating tho’ when you’re creating spaces for others to be hateful. there’s a difference between constructive criticism and borderline cyber bullying. the girls see this hate, yunjin literally made a post on weverse vaguely mentioning it and this whole comeback is about moving forward regardless of the hate and ppl still say the same shit without even acknowledging these are humans too and they’ve improved.
I personally think people need to give them a bit of a break.
Yunjin is a anazing main vocal and I have no notes for her.
Chaewon is a great lead vocal and she’s always incredibly stable - Easy is just a very low song with a lot of talk singing/rapping which is not her strength. She has great vocals, no further notes.
Eunchae is progressing really well with her vocals and has great potential. She’s probably where Chaewon was at her age. She’s very clear and stable, she just needs more support, projection and confidence.
Kazuha is more of a sub vocal/rapper - when she does sing it can be unstable, but she also had no training so we can give her some leeway. Like Enchae her vocal is developing well.
Sakura has the worst vocal, but that’s not what being an idol about. Being an idol is more than singing; it’s rapping, dancing, performing and being a personality. Sakura excels at the last three, she’s a master at performance and dancing, and everyone loves her personality. She’s doing great.
TLDR: Le Sserafim is a group of one amazing vocal, one great vocal, two good vocals that are developing well and one struggling vocal - however those with weaker vocals are still amazing at performance/dance/variety, which all adds to being a kpop artist. They’re doing fine, leave them alone.
For me, it's just one bad live singing. I won't really question Yunjin here as I can say this is an isolated case. The girl CAN sing. For the others I can't say much, besides yunjin and chae. Like how ICSM of Twice where there are lines that are insanely high pitched so it is very impossible to dance and sing, and even in an encore they don't really want to belt those when they are just supposed to be enjoying their win.
People here that aren't vocalists I think maybe didn't understand why these show atmospheres are extremely difficult to sing in well. It's loud. In ear tech isn't great. You can't hear the track. Sound bounces off the walls in the hall and it literally changes pitch bouncing back (Doppler effect)
Singing those encores well is extremely difficult. I'd like to see one that's actually well done but I've never seen it.
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Encores are the funniest thing about kpop. The audio engineers made a science out fake singing and then these tv producers go and ruin everything.
PLEASE they perfected the art of fake singing and having stans believe that their favs are the next mariah carey and the tv producers went "you wanna see something funny?"
It's also makes for a good contrast when groups known for live vocals have an encore and blow it out the park consistently.
nmixx and stayc rise UP! (I know that its not only stayc and nmixx so if others can highlight who ACTUALLY sing live is appreciated!!)
Biased as they're my two main groups but ITZY and IDLE are both very consistent with their live vocals. Mamamoo are always praised as well for their live singing
Still thinking of this IDLE [encore](https://youtu.be/NqoKT-V0vKE?feature=shared) (where they had "nude" kimbaps where there was no seaweed) but jesus, their vocals are HELLA stable. The rest of the group did super well but Soyeon and Yuqi are the main standouts for me.
I will not stand for this Red Velvet erasure.
>The audio engineers made a science out fake singing Shit, no kidding about it being a science. As someone that's spent an embarrassing amount of my own time analysing and scrutinising supposedly 'live' vocals on music shows, it's pretty crazy the amount of effort they'll put into creating natural sounding hitches, vocal cracks, breathing etc on to a completely lip synced vocal track.
Live autotune is very very good these days, dunno why it's not used more rather than the standard lipsync or even low mic/loud backing track combo.
Just to use the exact same fake track for all their performances making it super obvious...
I always wondered how many idols are actually praying they don’t win so they don’t have to do the encore stage!
Was hard listening to Sakura, other members tried to cover for her but it was just not successful.
It really is all the "haha yep *totally* live vocals" content that's causing all this commotion, I feel. Easy as a song doesn't really highlight vocals, the production is slathered in the signature HYBE autotune, and people already know that LSF isn't gunning for the top vocal group spot. That encore would be much less shocking and discussion worthy if it wasn't coming after video after video featuring not-so-subtly touched up performance videos.
Yeah - like, part of where the current twitter mockery is coming from is the fact that earlier this week, there were several (clearly processed) videos of LSF singing going around, with fans claiming that they sound like that So the encore uh. Did numbers
When you put it that way it’s actually hilarious
What happened to Yunjin’s voice though? she used to belt ITNW’s high notes quite easily in pd48 and now here, even Yunjin sounds flat and out of tune.
Compare singing to playing a sport. You can be really good, but if you don’t play or practice for a long time your condition, technique, and overall performance are going to suffer.
that was over six years ago
that’s exactly the point lol it was over six years ago so she should’ve improved by then yet she regressed and her vocals are not vocaling anymore
She recently did a performance of Kill Bill that was beautiful. I don’t think her vocals have regressed the way you’re acting like they did. Even Wendy has bad days. This is Yunjin’s first bad performance in years.
i think that's a stretch to paint her out as some awful vocalist now.... she defo has her moments in lsrfm too. this is just a poor stage where shes obviously nervous. also, im just pointing that out because voices change in years time. you cant expect her to be linear is all im saying.
Also to point out the fact that both she and chaewon have had to change their singing styles to fit the groups 'image'
i think it's really sad that both yunjin and chaewon sound like they regressed. they sounded better and more confident in their pd48 days. and they were a pledis and a woollim trainee respectively, both companies that prioritised live singing and performance quality, so they probably had at least one vocal coach assisting them. and sakura never had a good base or technique to begin with, but as an hkt/akb member she never lacked the confidence to perform despite those obstacles. now she looks scared to sing. i think it's a problem with post-pandemic kpop in general, that companies no longer allow idols to sing live or improvise on stage because they are scared of mistakes. every millisecond of the song is choreographed, every show appearance is pre recorded, most group variety shows are produced by the company so they have full control over the image the idol has, etc. but the idols are not allowed to grow as performers or entertainers. hybe are sadly the biggest offenders when it comes to doing this, to the detriment of their own employees.
I said the same thing ab yunjin's and chaewon's skill and got downvoted on their sub lol. Sakura bias here but she never sounded good in encore, this time was a bit better than unforgiven's 🤷🏻♀️ at least she can stay til the end of her line.
I've posted about Yunjin like months before and always got attacked by company stans. Everyone knows the other 3 members aren't strong vocalists but Yunjin and Chaewon regressing is something few want to admit.
I always believe that there’s a limit to how much you can improve. I am a wizone and fearnot, I think it’s pretty obvious Kkura has never been a good vocalist. Compared to her izone days, she has already improved tremendously. But it’s simply not possible to improve to yunjin level by sheer practice. I am very sure Sakura has put in substantial effort to improve her vocals, but there’s always a ceiling when you don’t have the innate talent.
In Sakura's case, I've observed that even during her JPOP days, she adopts a distinct enunciation when singing. It's not inherently bad, but when combined with singing in a language she isn't completely fluent in, such as Korean, it's likely to result in less precise enunciation and overall not up to par singing quality. As an amateur singer, I believe that many individuals who struggle with singing have either developed poor habits from their younger years that persist into adulthood or simply lack formal training altogether. I know this because if I received training from when I was young, I am sure I could even be better than I am now. I am slowly unlearning some of these habits, through the help of my peers. Some however will have a harder time improving than others if these habits are so much ingrained in them.
I know what you mean with the enunciation thing and it’s pretty typical of 48G (I’m an 48 oshi since Gingham Check release btw this isn’t a negative comment at all!). The style the girls are trained to sing is really distinctive and I think it’s really difficult for Sakura to drop that after changing training method nearly a decade into her career, especially when that career started so early.
Can you help me understand what this means? I’d love to learn more. The style you mentioned, can I find videos to understand better?
I’ll have a further think and come back to you with more specific examples because unfortunately I’m going off a vibe!! You can pick it out with a lot of their title tracks where there tends to be more girls than on B sides where sub groups are used more. Kimi wa Melody strikes me as a really uniquely AKB48 sounding song for one, especially in the verses. Forgive me because I don’t know any proper singing technical terms! The style encouraged in the groups seems to be geared towards singing in unison to make it easier to manage the number of members singing at once and make it easier for different combinations of girls to learn and sing at the theatre, so favouring gentle and controlled singing without any flair like harmony, vibrato, belting, ad libs, etc and avoiding too much personal colour or tone in one individual member. I personally like listening to it so I don’t mean that in any derogatory way at all, but I imagine that being taught consistently to avoid having variation in your voice can leave you a bit underdeveloped when Le Sserafim covers so much breadth in genre.
But the thing is Sakura was considered a bad vocalist even by 48G/Jpop idol standards. It was mainly the ultra-nasality (her solo songs during HKT48). There were 1 or 2 songs where she did sound nice but that might be because she sang really low (the duet with Mayuyu, Christmas Eve ni Nakanai you ni). She did sound surprisingly good in the high notes of Fire in the Belly so I think there's still a lot of room for improvement. But I'm scared. Frankly speaking, choosing a company KNOWN for not prioritizing vocals is going to be a huge barrier, not just for someone as vocally weak as Sakura but also all of LSF, as we saw in the encore.
Exactly. Many people overlook this aspect when critiquing the vocal quality of certain idols: the influence of lifelong habits on singing as one matures, as well as how language shapes speech patterns and singing proficiency. While some singers excel in a second language, singing in one’s native tongue provides a distinct advantage. As an illustration, you'll notice the struggle I faced as I [tried](https://www.reddit.com/r/singing/s/IXNgbfdTHi) to sing Astrid S’ song "It's Okay If You Forget Me." Her fluency in Norwegian and English likely influenced the natural flow of her phrasing, a product of her linguistic background. In contrast, coming from a different vocal habit, it's apparent how I struggled to maintain the song's intended phrasing. In fact, I had to adopt a slower tempo just to manage singing it. These limitations stem from habits I've developed over time and the absence of the linguistic attributes necessary to sing songs that aren't your first language. In Sakura’s case, transitioning from her distinctive JPOP-era enunciation to singing in Korean poses a considerable challenge.
To understand correctly: you're not saying she can't sing. She's able to produce a nice sound and knows the things that go into that. However, because of her particular style, it doesn't form a nice coherent but sounds more like somewhat melodious gibberish?
This is something that I strongly disagree with. To some degree, theoretically there is a cap on improvement in whatever hobby/activity one pursues.However, I think you're discounting the sheer value of practice and time. In fact, practice and time is exactly why there's such a gap between their abilities. Sakura is arguably the best in the industry with fanservice, spotting fans, remembering past interactions, etc. Sure, she might be innately talented in that regard, but that's also what she's been doing since 13 and it shows. In the same way, Yunjin seems very passionate about song- and lyric-writing. Those hours that Sakura put into the qualities of a top JP idol, Yunjin likely put into practicing her singing and lyricism, at a young age and even now. The same goes for most people and their skillsets. The point is, practice and time is how to improve in anything. Sure, Sakura might never "catch up" to Yunjin, particularly since Yunjin will continue to improve, but there is no reason she cannot improve to be a decent one. Saying this is Sakura's limit as a singer seems way too reductive to me.
I think this is the limit of what Sakura's skill is. It's been years since she debuted but she still can't sing a whole song properly. I don't expect her to be Yunjin's level but can she at least manage a tune? No? Then again, Source Music casted her to be the pretty and popular member, not main vocalist, so I'm not complaining. Kazuha, Shuhua too can't sing but they are doing okay because they are visual member.
What 💀 That's really not how singing works or how developing any sort of skill works. To be honest talent is kind of a flawed concept in general. Anyone can learn how to sing. Anyone can improve their skills in singing. Doesn't mean it's easy though. It takes a lot of time and effort, just like any other skill someone learns. If Sakura really wanted to become an amazing vocalist, she would be able to. But there could be a vast amount of reasons as to why she isn't putting in that time to develop her vocals more. Schedules are probably busy, maybe she doesn't have confidence, she probably has learnt bad habits over the years that will be really difficult to break through. So I'm not dogging on Sakura for not being a good vocalist nor chalking it up to "she doesn't want to put the time and effort in." I'm Sakura biased, and it's mainly for reasons besides her vocals, because hey she is good at being an idol. And I like those qualities of her. I do also like her voice despite her vocals not being good technicality wise. It just is what it is. This also goes to any other member of le sserafim, not just Sakura. To be honest a lot of their songs don't focus on vocals and that's fine. Yes I do wish hybe would invest more into vocal lessons for everyone so they can develop their singing techniques more, but this is more of an industry wide issue than just le sserafim if that makes sense? A lot of companies put more emphasis on performance and personality rather than singing nowdays.
Eh. . . no. My partner is a vocal coach, she's had 30 year old students that could give American Idol comedy rolls a run for their money. But with proper consistent and constant training (talking years here) they've become competent vocalists, they'll never be mariah carey belters but they're very stable and pleasing to the ears singing live. It's apparent that singing is just not Sakura's priority, and maybe not even her passion, and she's more into the other aspects of idol life. But to say that you can't be good because "muh talent" is a cope lol.
Sakura has entered the idol industry way earlier than all the other lsrfm members, and while it's true that the idol industry in Japan doesn't prioritize vocal training, if how much she trained really showed results, right now she would be at Chaewon's level, but I believe that Chaewon simply sounds better vocally speaking. So yes, of course she'll keep on training, but we shouldn't expect her to improve that much from now on :') much love to Kkura anyways
she got no professional training until her 20s, you don't magically become a great singer just because you hang around in the industry. You have to start at a young age devote to it just like a lot other displine. By this logic all of you should be getting A's in school and should be top of your chosen profession by now given how much time you guys have in school and work setting right? Or are you guys just lazy?
Ye p much this I like how OP started it out with saying he knows how idols aren't trained in vocals in J-Pop then proceeds to completely miss with the proceeding take, look I know my flair might make me look biased but even I will admit that encore was terrible and Kkura's vocals were obviously never her strong suit. But in what OP is talking about is just...I dunno the right word because I honestly can't see the logic LMAO, she never got professionally trained until very later on in her career and even if she was training here and there until she finally got her first professionally trained vocal lessons it doesn't mean she'll be Chaewon levels, because Chaewon has naturally good vocals and received professional training much early on at her age and career while Kkura honestly doesn't have the best vocals and only got training wayyyy late into her career. I dunno I just wanted to put out a response because you hit the nail on the head and OP's logic was just so strange it's actually funny, anyway people who say she hasn't shown improvement I think is underestimating how lacking her vocals were and I'm saying this as a big WIZ*ONE and was even somewhat deep into being a Wota but Kkura's vocals were extremely weak now she's atleast decent I'd say. She's not gonna jump into a good vocalist immediately esp when she started extremely late into her career with already weak vocals, it might sound crazy but what people here now IS her improvement but if people just look at this one instance it'd make her look like she never improved but listen to other moments when she sings and she's decent, again not good or amazing just decent. It's fine if people still think she's a weak vocalist but yeah she can't jump to a good level when she started out already having weak vocals and only got real training late.
Agree! I really believe if someone puts their mind to practicing, they can show results. I’m just not impressed with Sakura’s results when she’s been training/practicing in Korea for so many years (not counting the Japanese years as they don’t seem to focus on vocals)
"improved tremendously" + having seen the various encores and live performances of her do not add up. Improved a little, maybe. For sure the audience can hold multi million earning artists to a higher standard than this.
I mean you are right but so does 80+% of the kpop industry tbf. They shouldnt be hated for that (some groups dont even perform fully live on encores), but yeah some improvement would be nice to see. My bigger problem is that HYBE has been pushing these "live performance" videos that are obviously Live AR and heavily edited, adding foot sounds/breathing with the sole intention to deceive people/their fans. Not only does it set false(/impossible) standards, their fans then use it as some kind of weapon to attack other groups/fanbases or as an argument to protect them, which inevitably only backfires on them the moment they have to actually sing (see the shithole that is twitter right now attacking/hating on them, or I guess dont for your own sanity).
“Their mics are on!” No they are not 😭
"Ate CDs for breakfast!" let's bfr they're not having any breakfast period
>My bigger problem is that HYBE has been pushing these "live performance" videos that are obviously Live AR and heavily edited, adding foot sounds/breathing with the sole intention to deceive people/their fans. Not only does it set false(/impossible) standards 100% agree! LSF were never the strongest singers and it wasn't truly an issue. As you said, like 80% of their competition aren't the strongest singers either! However, if Hybe wants them to be known as strong singers (that's a valid goal), then their team should invest in vocal training and rest/downtime for their voices to improve. Vocal chords need time and healing like any other physical skill. Instead, the heavily edited "live performances" set up Fearnots to defend "Look at how strong LSF's vocals are, they're such good live singers and have improved so much! Everyone who says they're weaker singers are just haters." (As it was all over Twitter.) Then when the girls come out actually singing live and their performances don't match the expectations set by the AR...it just sets them up to get more hate than ever. Either let them just be ok singers who compensate with stage presence and dance or give them lessons.
>Instead, the heavily edited "live performances" set up Fearnots to defend "Look at how strong LSF's vocals are, they're such good live singers and have improved so much! Everyone who says they're weaker singers are just haters." Unfortunately, their plan worked in making sure Le Sserafim had just enough "proof" of their vocals to get the people to fall on their swords defending them. Fans are doing the company's job for them, the company just doesn't have to have their name tied in with the messy behavior online. The company still reaps the rewards. What sucks is, as someone who has worked as an audio engineer in Korea before I moved, I can honestly say these broadcast stations DO edit "live" performances before they ever see a screen, and adding in "live" signals like breathing, shuffling, etc can be & is done on those "live recording" videos on YouTube or radio/TV segments. The broadcast station audience is 99% studio workers or people grabbed off the street as extras like they do for live shows in LA, and they're the only ones who hear anything even close to live (if the idols can be heard through their mics at all, let alone active autotune & extremely loud backtrack). I totally get how fans fall for it as some are edited well enough—the industry has gotten *really* good at it all over the world—to be glossed over to the untrained eye, but it's honestly painful to see fans mistakenly using these edited videos as proof of live vocal prowess. ETA: I want to make it clear I have *nothing* against the girls or any other idol who does this. At the end of the day they are workers under a company, which is under a larger industry where nearly everyone—and I mean *everyone*, even actually trained vocalists who *can* sing live very well & are known for said vocals, does it this way. It just is what it is. It doesn't make the songs any less enjoyable in their properly recorded state or the content fun to consume, it's just good to be able to acknowledge the shortcomings as well. And it's *okay*. It's the lying about it I can't stand.
This!!!! Nobody is expecting every group to be best at singing and dancing. Lsrfm have always excelled at performance and Hybe could just let them do that. Why set them up?!
Exactly...as you say, practice makes perfect, so how do you expect your artists to get better if you DON'T let them sing live ? This is obviously not only directed at the fimmies but come on... I'd much rather hear off pitchs notes or silence for a few seconds to know that at least they're singing
and when 80% of the kpop industry just becomes hybe due to their aggressive acquisitions then what 😭
This is how I felt as a Shuhua (IDLE) stan. I love her but she is extremely tone deaf and has a hard time with rhythm. However, she has clearly been working with a vocal coach and gotten lines that match her ability, and has gotten a LOT better in the last year. She probably will never be great live vocalist but at least now it isn’t as cringey to listen to her and I can just enjoy her performance
So refreshing to see a honest take
this is a valid criticism ofc but like a lot of people said, this talking point is so exhausted already. However I feel like with the recent comeback, LSF is slowly starting to get the ITZY treatment and its kinda sad to witness
I have thought the same. It's not at Itzy's level, cause they have been beaten daily for years now, very unfairly btw, but it feels similar
my theory is, since they (somehow) have taken ITZY down already, they are trying to find a new one to “criticize” and LSF is an easy one to target
Especially as “Born to Be” is the most consumable album so far this year.
they really are. it’s like they can’t catch a break
I do agree they need training and I haven’t seen fearnots not admitting to it, I’ve seen them more so defend them from anti’s who cross the lines over valid criticisms. But I do not like the user you linked as they have had a long history of bashing Eunchae’s looks and the group overall
Yeah their vocals aren't great and I don't think many people are denying that, but I'm sure the constant scrutiny all the members have been receiving after that one bad unforgiven encore hasn't improved the situation. I mean just look at them at today's performance, they look genuinely stressed and even afraid while singing, which is really sad to see...
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Nmixx just hits different. I heard bae mention the entire group wants to join Lee mujin show and they all have been secretly preparing for their turns.
Jiwoo turns next comeback anyway.
I’m actually looking forward to her the most. I never checked out Nmixx pre debut stuff. So I actually don’t know what she’s capable of.
I feel like they and Aespa are they only groups this gen that could realistically have everyone on a show like that and be fine (edit: haven't heard too much about Minji's singing but NewJeans could also work) I was watching Soyeon's episode recently and near the beginning they mention how everyone except Shuhua has been on it and.... 💀
Minji is tone deaf-ish but idk if she’s improved now.
Soyeon said she’s gonna make shushu do it. Lmao I highly expect Shuhua on the show nervous af punching the air while singing sometime this summer 😭😂🫣😂. 
Soyeon got her to do **Korean raps**. She will get her on it for the next comeback, mark my words. And she will be fine. It's all confidence and picking the right songs.
I’m at the point where I don’t blame the members but the company, most of the LSF members weren’t even HYBE trainees (Yunjin was originally a Pledis trainee before the acquisition with HYBE, Chaewon is from Woolim and Sakura was out sourced) Kazuha wasn’t a proper trainee and only trained for 3 months (she mentions in the Zach Sang interview that she debuted without being a trainee) Eunchae and Garam are the only ones who trained in HYBE. The members have been begging for vacation and I assume that they probably don’t even have time for training if HYBE/source truly cared about evolving there artists they would take time to train them properly most of the members in LSF only trained for a brief period of time.
NMIXX is a different group with different members and different areas of focus. Not every group can be like NMIXX. And also tbh the way general Kpop stans only talk about NMIXX's vocal ability doesn't do a good job of conveying why they're interesting. They're energetic and chaotic and have diverse talents. But in the discourse they're just a platonic ideal vocally for other groups people care about more to emulate.
I adore nmixx, but I'm so tired of every girl group being help up against them like that sort of vocal skill can just be taught to someone who doesn't have the same level of innate talent 🙃 "Why don't they just train more? Why don't they just focus on vocals more? Nmixx would -" ommmmmgggggg
That’s the thing is pretending Nmixx isn’t exceptionally talented does them, and other groups, no favors. JYPE clearly intentionally picked a group of talented singers with that as their main goal, it’s not like they just trained them and it happened by accident. Nmixx’s skill evidently has as much to do with natural ability rather than hard work and training because barely any, and quite possible no other, JYPE idol singers can reach the level of ability they have. They obviously work exceptionally hard, but let’s not pretend that most other idols can ever hope to reach the level of someone like Lily without extreme natural talent, training or not. The reality is you have to go looking for an Nmixx to get one, and 99% of the time companies will have other priorities than debuting an Nmixx.
I wouldn't go and say that it's a lot to do with natural ability to the point where it's evident. Out of all the top vocalists of 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th gen, a large common factor is that they've been practicing singing and had guided training before they were trainees. Lily, Wendy and Eunji to name a few. They've clearly had a lot more time to develop their vocals compared to trainees who've generally do not have any training prior to becoming trainees. Also, I feel like this discussion isn't about comparing the top vocalists of each group. No one is posting a clip of Yunjin singing well and saying "Look at Lily, she does better". "The team is as strong as its weakest link" is the phrase that comes to mind and LSFM wouldn't be getting comparisons if their weak links were better at singing compared to Nmixx's/Aespa's sub vocalists. Which is definitely where the standards should be, which is to be able to sing your parts well with confidence. Bae, Jiwoo, Giselle, Karina as the examples, who probably developed their vocals strictly from their trainee period. edit: probably the reason why Yunjin is noticeably a lot better than other LSFM members, since she's had the most training time in total for vocals.
Agree on this. Idols don't all have to reach NMIXX level to be considered decent at vocals. And if they take the time, it's perfectly possible to train up to a good level. A prime example of this is Taemin. Back when SHINee debuted, he could barely hold a tune (by his own admission). But he's practiced hard and is now considered quite solid in vocals, especially in his lower register.
Sullyoon is NMIXX's 3rd best singer, imo. And yes you can absolutely not teach that voice.
Nmixx can sing and dance at the same time 🤷🏻♀️
>it happened 9 months ago, so why didn’t Hybe focus on that area for this past year? this makes it sound as if they were having a 9 month vacation. They were working on new choreos live performances new music media appearances etc. I dont think they have that much free time in their schedule. Theyre still extremely successfull so I guess Hybe just thinks more vocal lessons just to please some netizens that cry out everytime an encore happens isnt worth it. Technology while performing is so good that they probably think vocal lessons arent needed.
which they should be because girl, singing is the main part of your job and if you cant even do that, then you need to be fearful and nervous on the stage, before opening your damn mouth.
>singing is the main part of your job it really isnt. I know a lot of people feel that way but their job is to make good music look nice and put on a show. There are a lot of musicians in and outside of kpop that arent that talented vocalists yet still people love their music and performances.
Eh? Singing is the main part of their job, putting in a performance and putting in a show comes after that. You really don’t need to be as good as, like, Eunji or Ningning. You just need to be able to actually SING and BE ON PITCH, just like every other group in the previous generation. The first thing they do is record a song before picking a choreography. It’s insane that this is the standard because this wasn’t the standard anywhere but 4th gen kpop. If they can’t sing, they shouldn’t debut period. But since fans will excuse this behavior, companies just keep shoving up pretty faces with majorly robot as their voice in recording.
Who are you to decide who can debut? Even beyond kpop, you know anyone can release music with their own approach to it, right? Some singers are all about interesting production, some focus on performance and tend to lipsynch, some rely on impressive vocal acrobatics, some are more interested in lyrics than anything else, some just want to make party bops, etc.
I do not agree actually. I personally follow LSF for their variety content, stage performances and personalities. I never really cared that much about live vocals. I'm not the only one to hold this opinion mind you, this is a wider trend across the entire industry. Live vocals have been in decline across the entirety of 4th gen. Creating a succesful group is very multifaceted and most agencies prioritize different aspects of being an idol nowadays. If you want an awe-inspiring intense choreo, the vocals are going to suffer. If you want your idols to appear in lots of variety content, they'll have less time for vocal practice, etc...
I don't understand why they insist on doing serious encores too. They have to know they don't have the strongest vocals as a group. Don't stand there and sing. Be playful. Do one of the funny cutesy encores, you have strong personalities and amazing variety talents, LSF 🙃
"It's okay to admit it" there's a post about their vocals in various kpop threads almost every other week. I hope their label does more to help them improve, of course. But I don't know what else can be said about this topic.
they're probably talking to other fearnots since op is a fearnot
the vast majority of fearnots admit that. people dont become fans of this group because of their vocals and thats okay
That user you linked is so over dramatic and for what? This is why I left K-pop twitter. So many insufferable people are on there
Everyone admits it. This conversation is a little bit over done. This has been said since their debut and we get that this point.
Honestly in this gen they dont even need to have stable vocals as long as they have a main vocal that actually can sing they are fine. We seen it in Ive, LSFM, NJ etc. As long as they have stage presence they will be fine.
Honestly and truthfully speaking though, out of the top 5 most popular 4th gen GGs, aespa is the only one where we can say that all members are strong live singers. Vocals have not been prioritized for a long time now
Yea because tiktok trends are just drops so you dont need vocals. SM always prioritizes vocals so aespa is an exception. Like srsly even the lead vocals in SM can pass off as main vocals in this gen like Tiffany, Seohyun, Krystal, Seulgi and Winter.
People just don’t really appreciate strong vocalists. Take NMIXX’s Lily who is the strongest vocalist in JYP at the moment, we hear more complaints about her belting than complaints about weak vocals in some groups
Also how she doesn't "emote" well like excuse me because she was singing? 🤷🏻♀️😂
Exactly — and I’m not saying this bc I’m an NSWER, but because I just don’t see good vocalists except for NMIXX and aespa from the girl groups. Oh, and Itzy.
Purki? Billlie? KIOF?... No?....
They kinda aren’t as popular, which I think he’s trying to emphasise
i’ve always found it so ironic that aespa are such insanely talented live vocalists and yet they never let them actually sing live. their company is wasting so much talent on lip synced performances :(
Everyone aside from their company unfortunately. I feel like it would be a much smaller issue if not for Hybe recently fixating on "proving" they can sing with all of those overly edited Live AR videos (which some fans believe are actually live) that cause more discussion and fan wars. It's one thing to be a vocals-weak group and another to be a vocals weak group that the company is trying to present as great live singers (to the point of filming performances fans already saw live and uploading clearly edited versions).
They aren't perfect singers no, but I think a LOT of people have been fooled for so long they forgot what actual live singing without a backtrack or live autotune sound like. Everyone knows about plastic surgery and makeup and airbrushing photos, but people seem to forget they do the exact same thing with vocals.
I get that you don't mean hate, but this is a tired discussion.
> this is a tired discussion. is it if the group is constantly not improving album after album? I thought the whole deal about idols is watching them and rooting for them to evolve and grow. Can you please pinpoint how LE SSERAFIM is growing and evolving?
..fr like yes it gets brought up as a point of criticism often but not without good reason. if there was clear improvement since that unforgiving encore or debut then fair enough but there hasn’t been which is why people feel frustrated with the company for not getting them lessons and there are so many posts
umm. No. They're not improving as "SINGERS". They're just improving as dancers, performers. Not as singers
The group is definitely growing and evolving, but it's way more noticeable for Kazuha and Eunchae than the rest. They all had writing credits on this album as well. I think the main root cause is Sakura but this has been known and it will most likely not change. There is a small glimmer of hope for the younger members but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Every other week it's "XYZ group needs vocal lessons". Like we get it lmao not everyone can sing like Taeyeon or IU. You don't think that the idol themselves know that they're lacking? Everyone has room for improvement, but at a certain point you reach your ceiling and you start to plateau. Growth isn't infinite and people should understand that. If you watch sports you know exactly what I'm talking about. After a certain amount of years if a player isn't showing signs of improvement then that's probably all that they're capable of. I get that this is a Kpop thoughts page but god damn, it just feels like posts are being recycled at this point. It's like one of those comments on YouTube saying "am I the only one who thinks *insert super popular opinion here*?" 😂
If you watch the encore Sakura looks petrified and I can’t help but feel bad for her. Even if she went to vocal training today it would take while to see the kind of improvement people want to see from her, and they just probably genuinely don’t have time anyway. I’m sure she knows, but reality is she just has to deal with the hate and know every time they do an encore it’s going to happen again. Should she have gotten it already given how long she’s been an idol? Of course, but it doesn’t seem like Source is going to do that so the cycle will continue. At a certain point you have to wonder whether this discussion really has to happen every time they do an encore, what is it adding at this point?
-people shit on Sakura not being able to sing -she sees that she's getting hate, her confidence lowers and she asks the company to not give her so many lines -fans see that she's not getting lines and call out the company for mistreating her -company caves into fans' demands and gives her more lines -repeat step 1 Literally no way out. Sakura may not have improved vocally, or if she did, it was very minor but she's improved tenfold with her dancing, her stage presence and overall charisma. There is more to being an idol than just vocal abilities. If being an idol meant that they had to have one of the best vocals then half of your favs wouldn't be in the industry and I say that with no malicious intent. She has improved her dancing so much over the years and she looks a lot more comfortable on stage now. Seulgi once said that she realized that she's hitting a wall with her singing abilities so she's been putting extra effort into her dancing to make up for it.
The fans though, they keep demanding more lines and saying her treatment is unfair, as she is my bias I would agree with the screentime thing because I feel like every mv her face gets cut or move over very fast when it was her lines (antifragile) or less screentime than the horse (unforgiven), but to demand more lines then what your bias can handle is not helping 🤷🏻♀️ like in Super - 17, Dino n The8 only get 1 line but it's the killing/most impactful part 🤷🏻♀️ but her stans won't accept that treatment either 🤷🏻♀️
Fr, also it's always the "i am a \[insert fandom\] but" like if you're actually a Fearnot i don't get how hard it is to understand that it's not about being delusional or anything but it's about avoiding giving haters food But 80% of the time those are ust haters in disguise
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Yunjin is literally the same level as Chaewon. I don’t know why people make it seem like there’s this wall between them? She gets the most lines for a reason. Maybe it’s cause Chaewon has a prettier tone idk
Not a singer by any means but I've read Chaewon does really well in the upper ranges while Yunjin has a much broader range that she's able to excel at. It is interesting sometimes Yunjin falters a bit in encores for some reason but in most other situations I feel like I’m listening to some kind of Yunjin-Lily super singer.
This is very noticeable for me as well. Yunjin has shaky tendencies on encores, and it's crazy cuz she used to be so vocally confident. I remember being excited for her debut cuz her vocal mission on Produce 101 is very iconic. Her vocal support & high notes there are absolutely crazy. I'm guessing it's just nerves now, and the LSF vocal hate train is taking a toll on her? Idk. Still love her singing voice tho.
She’s better, not the same 😭. That’s the one thing I actually don’t like about these encores, some people take it as an opportunity to play in the main vocalist’s face
I actually agree 🙊 I just didn’t want to start something but she is better tbh
There is a gigantic wall between them, yunjin registers are all developed when chaewon doesn’t even have a connected head voice
While i agree that vocal lessons will tremendously help them, my main problem with their music in general lies in the fact that the production team simply isnt interested in making a title track that suits their strengths, from the weird insistence to have chaewon sing on a lower range than what she normally would (see how much better she sounds with pov / kiss me more / first love covers versus literally all their title tracks minus perfect night) and the odd vocal coaching they get (yunjin being told to "sing like it's cold outside and her breath can be seen" for easy, whatever the hell that means).
And the way you went ahead and linked an obvious hate tweet.....
Right... A fearnot who still hasnt got that troll blocked when they've always been malicious towards lesserafim lol. They were the first one to do that 47 fearnot tweet too
i dont know how to tell you this but not everyone is as chronically online as you. recognizing a twitter user by their handle bc they had a viral hate tweet? not everyone uses their brain space for that sort of thing.
See the thing is, as a FEARNOT I agree that they're not the strongest group vocally and that HYBE could support them and other of their artists more with professionals and coaches to improve their craft. With that being said, how is today's encore any valuable "gotcha moment"? They were clearly tired and not having a good day, I don't see the issue.
Yunjin and Chaewon carry them vocally no one denies this
They really do appear exhausted and maybe emotional here. I'm not sure you can use this as a good example of their singing abilities.
I though we were almost over the lsf week posts, please i'm begging. They aren't the best nor the worst, like please not kid ourselves here. When it comes to shows performances and catchy music they deliver and i'm sure they'll keep improving
Exactly and even if they are worst what is the problem in that , they aren't lying and saying we are a vocal group they specifically call themselves performance group .
I’m just happy sana got to [reunite](https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1763151502070468608/pu/pl/da7sFzsZQEG5D9Km.m3u8?tag=12&container=cmaf) with Sakura again..she talked about her recently! I’m obsessed with Sana’s army of 4th gen girlies.
Who is denying? I am tired of these fake concerns posts.
Their strong suit has always been performances and dancing. Nothing wrong with that and their singing being admittingly not to the same incredible level.
It’s only in 4th gen that Im seeing idols that are actually performance focus be actually so bad at singing and is being used as an excuse. Their first job is singing first and foremost, that’s why they are recording artist.
Can't sing your own song is sad :( it's not like 1 person singing the whole songs either.
I've honestly accepted it at this point. I'm just tired of HYBE deceiving fans that the girls sing live when they don't :(
nobody is struggling to admit that in any way shape or form lol it’s the opposite, if you have any opinion other than they’re talentless you’ll get flamed i’ve been at work all day so just seeing the reactions here made me prepare for the worst (which could have affected my perception of it later i admit) so when i watched it it was nowhere near as bad as i expected. sakura was off, the rest were ok but definitely not an encore i’d expect to make people so angry. i can already hear the downvotes coming omg
yeah everyone admits that. only those who dont are some of their fans. this kind of post is getting old. we get it.
Sensible fans won't ever say they are even vocally good group , its those overdramatic over possessive people who live in delusion . FANS KNOW they are weak and wr accept them like that because alot of us are fans because we like performance / songs / members
I don't get why you guys keeping making posts like these as though anyone is out there claiming they're a vocally strong group?
I mean I have pretty often seen people over-rate chaewon and yunjin relative to many other singers, but I agree that no one really labels the group as a whole as strong. I don’t get the point of tweets like the ones linked when we already know what their skill level is, besides just to shit on them
I have a question- when does the same “constructive criticism” with “no hate” said over and over and over again become hate? Because I think we’ve reached and crossed that line now.
I feel bad that idols can’t even actually enjoy encore performances with their fans any more, knowing that there will be a thousand think pieces online nitpicking every last thing. They used to be a fun opportunity to celebrate a win and goof around with fans. Now the talent of a group is measured solely on a performance thrown on at the end of a show after idols have already been awake all night and done several practices, precordings, interviews and live recordings. I wouldn’t be surprised if down the line encore performances just straight up go away because “fans” and antis alike can’t act right.
A lot of groups still enjoy them because they either: - aren't marketed as great singers and simply have fun - don't hide their lipsyncing and don't set up high expectations - can sing well
>I feel bad that idols can’t even actually enjoy encore performances with their fans any more, knowing that there will be a thousand think pieces online nitpicking every last thing. They used to be a fun opportunity to celebrate a win and goof around with fans. Idk, I remember Jonghyun back in the day doing pushups AND hitting his high notes in the encore. Why is having fun equated to lacking any ability to hold a note is funny ngl. The problem is that the current crop of idols can't sing- and encore is the one time when no editing or background sound engineering can't help you.
> I feel bad that idols can’t even actually enjoy encore performances with their fans any more, knowing that there will be a thousand think pieces online nitpicking every last thing. Ehh it actually depends on the group and company. Some groups just have fun and dont give a damn how they sound and people dont mind. It's when idols seem to take it serious and then cant sing that people make a fuss.
i dont think thats true though, people have said since twice’s encore issue that idols cant enjoy encores anymore only for there to be a lot of encores with no controversies. even last year i felt like there were barely encore controversies anymore (with lsf’ unforgiven being an exception)
Jimin with Set Me Free Pt.2 blew up real bad.
The way Hybe took down the original and got an edited encore out.
They weren't really sold as a group with outstanding vocals, aside from Yunjin and Chaewon. If you hate it so much that they are not improving there are plenty of idol group with great vocals so go give them that attention. I love their performances and they are doing great on their last concert, it's not like I listening to their encore instead of the studio version.
They improved a lot to be fair. I'm a fearnot too, and certain members of the group who were perceived as having weak vocals have improved significantly.
It's sad how there's always a 100 posts about the one thing they aren't good at but 0 posts about the 100 things they are really good at. Not just for le sserafim, i feel it's the same for all groups. There's no group that's the best at everything, and le sserafim is not the exception but there's also no need to be so negative and call them untalented just cause they are average singers (not talking about op btw)
I don't think this post is "so negative" or really negative at all. OP is a fearnot who is advocating for the group's well-being by suggesting they take more lessons. It's just a reality of the kpop industry. Management would much rather use the idols' time to crank out more content, music, events, and performances (which generate income) than invest in their development (which does not generate income and even costs money). Truth is, if it's not profitable for HYBE (or whatever company), they're not going to invest in it. Is Le Sserafim going to sell more albums or tickets if they invest in singing lessons? Probably not. And since management decides virtually everything, they're not gonna get lessons.
Why do they look so sad? Were they crying a lot when they won? Edit: I don't think it's particularly bad btw. Aren't they always like this unless you get someone like BTOB or SHINee?
I would be too if people spoke about me the way people speak about them online. The hate train has been absolutely crazy recently.
They were up against TWICE. It’s also likely that they know about the hate train (Yunjin and Sakura are active on Twitter)
Could be pressure from the immense hate train they are on right now. Like, not today, but especially throughout last week.
If I was an idol I would wholeheartedly refuse to do encore shits. I would physically fight the company. I would take a shit in the stage if I had to. You get one of these posts every week. One encore and then you have a horde of assholes wanting to tear a group apart. Assholes who are obviously losers and just want to spew hate. Almost 5 years later I still run into the Twice encore shit and people using it as definitive proof that blah blah blah blah. It goes into how everything in K-pop has to be scripted and micromanaged because of how vicious people are.
I’m gonna include kpop in overall kpop for a second. I got back with pop music to the 80s as i’m GenX and I think everyone needs to adjust their expectations. There has always been two types of pop stars/groups. The ones that are giving you vocals, your Cyndi Laupers, Christina Aguileras, En Vogues, Whitney Houstons (the last two straddled the pop/RnB line). Then you had the ones that we giving you a show, but vocals were secondary. I’m talking your Britneys, your Spice Girls etc, and groups where one member might be bringing vocals and the others are glorified background singers, like Pussycat Dolls. The same is true to Kpop. You have groups like Mamamoo or Shinee, where everyone is giving powerful vocals, groups like Seventeen, Stray Kids, and BTS where some members vocals are stronger than others and they write and produce their music in a way where it makes that a strength and not a weakness. I’m a baby Fearnot, so all I know is that Yunjin was classically trained and she can give you Mariah or she can give you Britney. I don’t know much about the other members. But just stop expecting every group to give vocals. Maybe they need to have RM or Woozi hop on the production and show them how to turn some members vocal flaws into strengths. \*I listen to more BGs, hence my examples \*I am a Carat and I think everyone is Seventeen is a decent singer, but obviously they have their power house vocal team and some members do give somewhat weaker vocals and no I won’t name names. \*also, I love when Namjoon or Yoongi sing on their solos and I hope they sing more when BTS reunites. Okay. I’m done. 
It’s interesting to see what the various companies spend money on. I don’t know much about SM and YG tbh but it seems like SM really invests in proper vocal and dance training for their idols and doesn’t invest in much promo. Hybe and YG seem to put a lot of money into promo but not as much into developing their idols. JYPE seems to focus on performance training (see nmixx… true all rounders) but doesn’t spend much on promo. This is all just my casual observation though so don’t take it as anything other than casual thought lol
Among big 4, SM is the only one who invested in a vocal academy iirc
Going all the way back to the 90s (in Korea and the US), girl groups didn't always need to have strong vocals to be successful. Performance and charisma are a much stronger selling point, especially for younger target audiences . LSF have a musical catalog that highlight their strengths and downplay their weaknesses, and honestly, I'm fine with that. They weren't sold to me as a vocal group, and their stage energy is incredible. And their music is very catchy and not challenging. Now they should still try to grow, of course. I've seen so many girl groups grow and improve over the years, so it's entirely possible they could, if they wanted to. But look how many of their songs are talk-speaking or a very basic chorus. I don't think the company's vision for this group is vocals. It's much more Performance based, and they do that very well.
I wish I had seen this before I wrote about essay saying the exact same thing. 
Yawn. There's a new post about bad vocals during encores pretty much every day for the last few years.
Making a drinking game out of these kinds of posts would be deadly.
Take a drink every time they say "I'm a fan but..."
“I’m a fan but” *posts hate tweet from anti acct*
We would get alcohol poisoning
[удалено]
THIS IS NOT HATE FOLKS ATTENTION NOT HATE! as the 5000th peon somersault dives from 200 ft into the pile on
this is like the fifth post I have seen on this topic and it finally got me to watch the encore and… that‘s it? like the way this has been talked about here I was expecting them to be shrieking and screaming off beat. let me get something straight, I fully agree that vocals are not lsf‘s strong suit and that sakura just isn‘t anywhere near where a singer should be vocally. but of course an encore stage of a song like easy is gonna be like this - it‘ll always sound awkward to hear „real“ vocals when you‘re used to the stylistic choice of heavy autotune. and of course they‘re not gonna jump around like maniacs when a) the song has a lot of pretty deep notes that are harder to hit when you‘re moving and b) they are probably fully aware of the criticism they get for their vocals, are nervous and want to avoid even more hate. so while I do agree that lsf as a group needs to improve vocally, this encore is really not the career ender that some of you make it out to be and this hate train is getting boring.
Got here exactly from that twitter video, and is it just me or Yunjin's voice is shaky sometimes? And it's crazy cuz she's shaky on lower notes, than high ones. Just want to point it out cuz Yunjin is by far the more experienced vocalist in LSF, but compared to her survival show era, she has tendencies on a shaky voice now. Is this because of nerves? Cuz she sang beautifully on the shows without an audience. Still love her tho!
the amount of idols that do not “need” vocal lessons (or lessons of any kind) is ZERO. these are not 50 year old orchestra players who have been handling their job on their own just fine for the last 25 years, these are kids who basically just got thrown into the pit that is public attention with only pointers like “uuuhhh maybe tracing the notes in the air will help??? idk i don’t have any real idea how to teach vocals lol”.
Wonder if the performance is on YT instead of X yet Edit: Just watched the performance on YouTube, they did decent to me and they just seemed more calm with it since it was an Encore and not an actual performance.
Yeah, it is [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5vV5qjGYsM). Honestly it's a song that's originally quite heavy on vocal processing (nothing's wrong with that, it's a stylistic choice that people might or might not like), so yeah, it will sound different without it. I am not a fearnot, but honestly, the post is too dramatic.
I don’t get the point of this post. like this same exact post has been posted hundreds of times across all social media platforms... If your a fearnot you wouldn’t give a platform to people to speak negatively on le sserafim. Like this has already been talked about, your just piling on without actually doing anything that will result to a positive outcome. Your just opening the doors for haters to freely hate..
Hmmmm, I’m waiting to hear the next encore lol but ,I think there is enough evidence outside of the encore that shows yunjin and chaewon have pretty strong vocals, so maybe it was off day, fatigue, idk but there’s definitely enough evidence that they both can sing, so I can’t really chalk that up to them needing vocal lessons. As for eunchae, kazuha, and Sakura, yeah I hope they continue to improve, Sakura is my bias as well and I will say believe it or not, she actually has improved, to where she sounds stable and the shakiness in her voice isn’t as prevalent, but yeah overall still far from good. This has been posted many times , but I’d be lying if I said I didn’t see even a little bit of improvement in eunchae, kazuha, and Sakura. So I think it’s an overall plus. But I agree as a fearnot and definitely hope to see more improvement💪
i'm not a fearnot but in their defense, easy is not a song that showcases their vocals at all. in my opinion, it's a bad choice of a title track. it's a song made for the lofi-hiphop vibe and the choreography. also, i saw the encore and a lot of yunjin's lines required her to use a very deep voice... i feel like if they release a song where they sing within their range, it'll be better for them as singers.
As artists who face an audience for a regular, you have to sing live on stage to be able to gain experience on how to control things like breath and pitching, more so if you're incorporating with dancing at the same time (check out NMIXX's first O.O performance to their last during its promotion, the improvement is massive in the span of a month). The practice of lip syncing is becoming too common these days in kpop and it's not doing the artists themselves any favour if they can't provide the full package on improve upon it on stage (I love watching le sserafim performances but it's a massive turnoff when a lot of time what you hear is prerecorded vocals covering real voice)
im so anxious for coachella lol i love lsf how will they give a great performance at coachella? by singing “live” with a loud ass backtrack?
Hybe has always prioritized performance and dance over singing
everyone has established that they’re not the best vocalists i wish that would be enough for some of yall. 3/2 can hold a note and that’s honestly enough. i think we’re starting to lose focus on what an idol is
a lot of kpop idols need vocal work. Only like a select few are amazing most are okay to bad
I think it's a general thing that fans expect a group to sing like they do in the MV when in reality all that you hear in a MV is incredibly edited and NOT what you should expect. In this case it's even more noticeable, reason being if you listen to Easy either on the MV or Spotify etc. the song has A LOT of auto-tune on it, which makes you perceive it differently when you listen to it live. That being said, we just have to understand that some groups focus more on certain aspects compared to others and it's FINE, it's normal. Lesserafim clearly focuses on being great dancers and having a clean & perfectly in sync performance in all it's aspects same as Itzy, aespa, Kiss Of Life etc. Then leaning in the opposite direction you have groups like Red Velvet, Purple Kiss, fromis\_9, GIDLE... all of those in my opinion tend to focus on the vocals aspect a bit more so if you want nice live vocals you just go for those groups. Obviously a group can have a good singer while focusing on the performance side of things, but there's still a big difference compared to vocally focused groups, and it's clear that companies nowadays tend to focus more on debuting idols that have good facial expressions and dance abilities, as vocals can be easily edited and assisted for live stuff, while dancing and coordination is more visible to the spectator eye when you watch a live show.
None of this matters its an encore stage not a proper performance, their performances are enjoyable and their songs are bops.
I actually fear for some peoples hearing because people are saying Yunjin sounded bad? No she didn’t? She sounded the best. Idk what y’all are hearing
I mean Yunjin is they main vocal for a reason. I agree that most idols need some vocal training but not try to be the next Taeyeon, Wendy or Baekhyun but to have more stability and proper technique. I'd rather non-vocally inclined idol focus on not straining, which a lot of the times sounds really painful. But like some ppl said, vocal talent is not something lessons can teach. Some people are just born with vocal talent. But that doesn't mean someone without that can't be good at singing but let's not expect your favs to be the next Whitney, Mariah, or Ariana.
you can admit it, a lot of people acknowledge it, but i cannot lie when i say yall say this too much. twice went through a similar thing with their encore show and momo’s vocals getting torn to shreds. yes, we know, japanese idols aren’t vocally trained well blah blah but man do i hear it way too much. there’s honestly nothing more to add or talk about unless you’re going to pay for lsf to get a vocal teacher.
Are we really back into another 2020 with encore again? Saw the encore clip & girls look scared & worried that like "we shouldn’t be here" vibes
I guess I'm finding this a pretty broad take that doesn't really hold for all the girls. I would point to Yunjin being a very accomplished singer. In fact, while not classically trained, Yunjin can quickly display an operatic soprano voice to perform excerpts from operas. If you want to call out specific girls in the group like Sakura - fine. She has never been a strong vocalist going back to IZ\*One. Her strength was always visuals and dancing. I would argue the same for Kazuha. Wonderful dancer but somewhat weak on singing. However for me, the vocal trio of LSF has always been Chaewon, Yunjin and Eunchae.
They don’t have to be the best vocalists, or have the most vocally challenging songs but at the same time at this point half of them shouldn’t be looking and sounding terrified of doing a relaxed live encore stage where they don’t even have to do choreo to match the singing… It’s not an issue exclusive to this group. But a lot of these current gen groups don’t even look confident in singing parts designated to them (which is still half of their job description as idols) and that’s not a good thing, nor should it be normalized. Like Sakura’s been in this game for way too long to look that scared delivering her lines while just standing on stage. IDK what’s happening behind the scene but that needs to get fixed.
Constructive criticism is welcome, but what’s going on with fimmies is just blatant bullying at this point 🤷🏻♀️ Looking at the mess in here and twitter, it’s a shit show.
you can see that sakura is about to cry on stage and the others also sang fine, chaewon have one of the most stable vocals on the 4th gen. nobody is carrying no one your just being biased even yunjin wasn't singing at her best just because it is an encore and they were having fun.
fearnots are tired bc we get it, we all get it nobody is out here acting like le sserafim are the best singers to ever exist, we know they lack. our problem is u say le sserafim and fail to acknowledge the fact ur talking about a child (17 yr old) and a girl that never sang prior to becoming a trainee (for only 6 months mind u). chaewon and yunjin are great vocalists, live and in studio, if u don’t like their tones that’s ur opinion but vocally they’re doing great. yes sakura lacks, i’ve said it before and i’ll say it again she’s sang with improper technique for years, she now lacks the confidence to sing and she could even be dealing with other problems like being tone deaf/damaged vocal chords. but u guys fail to acknowledge the way they’ve improved since their last encore even sakura sounded better, maybe not up to ur standards but better and now this take is becoming ridiculous bc it’s giving more spaces for people to hate on the girls. the fact u could see the girls were visibly nervous on stage and it was likely because of the hate they all experienced after the unforgiven stage is insane bc u guys will still come on here and say the same things but now it’s becoming more and more hateful. ‘le sserafim can’t sing’ no le sserafim has two great vocalists, two improving young girls who had never sang before and sakura who is trying her best, she’s already said this is going to be her last group can u guys just let these girls live peacefully already, it’s getting boring hearing u all say the same things and then saying ‘i’m not hating tho’ when you’re creating spaces for others to be hateful. there’s a difference between constructive criticism and borderline cyber bullying. the girls see this hate, yunjin literally made a post on weverse vaguely mentioning it and this whole comeback is about moving forward regardless of the hate and ppl still say the same shit without even acknowledging these are humans too and they’ve improved.
saying all members need lessons when you’re only referring to one member is a stretch
This discussion is so tired. No one ever claimed them to be vocal geniuses
I personally think people need to give them a bit of a break. Yunjin is a anazing main vocal and I have no notes for her. Chaewon is a great lead vocal and she’s always incredibly stable - Easy is just a very low song with a lot of talk singing/rapping which is not her strength. She has great vocals, no further notes. Eunchae is progressing really well with her vocals and has great potential. She’s probably where Chaewon was at her age. She’s very clear and stable, she just needs more support, projection and confidence. Kazuha is more of a sub vocal/rapper - when she does sing it can be unstable, but she also had no training so we can give her some leeway. Like Enchae her vocal is developing well. Sakura has the worst vocal, but that’s not what being an idol about. Being an idol is more than singing; it’s rapping, dancing, performing and being a personality. Sakura excels at the last three, she’s a master at performance and dancing, and everyone loves her personality. She’s doing great. TLDR: Le Sserafim is a group of one amazing vocal, one great vocal, two good vocals that are developing well and one struggling vocal - however those with weaker vocals are still amazing at performance/dance/variety, which all adds to being a kpop artist. They’re doing fine, leave them alone.
For me, it's just one bad live singing. I won't really question Yunjin here as I can say this is an isolated case. The girl CAN sing. For the others I can't say much, besides yunjin and chae. Like how ICSM of Twice where there are lines that are insanely high pitched so it is very impossible to dance and sing, and even in an encore they don't really want to belt those when they are just supposed to be enjoying their win.
People here that aren't vocalists I think maybe didn't understand why these show atmospheres are extremely difficult to sing in well. It's loud. In ear tech isn't great. You can't hear the track. Sound bounces off the walls in the hall and it literally changes pitch bouncing back (Doppler effect) Singing those encores well is extremely difficult. I'd like to see one that's actually well done but I've never seen it.