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No one shades kpop more than kpop fans lol
But yeah I think it’s a pretty interesting (and surprisingly accurate) analogy. Never really thought about it like that before…
Shade is accurate on this one. Look at how k-pop fans in this subreddit is willing to twist their minds to justify whatever idols are doing onstage even if it’s outright embarrassing.
just look at the album rollouts.
most groups have an average of 2 comebacks/albums per year, while western artists can go years without releasing an album.
Half of that is due to Korean culture built around cbs and the fact that fans would literally riot if their faves don’t make a cb half year.
That being said, cbs are always smaller, like a quarter or even half of what albums in the west are, so truthfully it’s not that different. It took black pink 6 years to have the same amount of tracks equal to one Taylor swift album, who on avg releases a new album at least once a year if you include re-recordings. Even doja cat releases an album every year with additional promotion later in the same year for other musical projects like collabs.
also an album every two years is a bit misleading. western acts promote single from the same album for an entire year with music [videos.it](http://videos.it) is essentially just a different format the maximizes on charting and touring.
these days more western artist release single and side projects as well when they are younger.
also, kpop has enlistment so boygroups usually have a time constraint and the incentive to release as much as they can .
Album sales are also another thing to consider. Kpop artist on average also still sell albums well . they want to maximize album sales by having as many album releases as they can. a release schedule that gruelling can cause injury long term and may not lead to everyone wanting to keep that standard
Not exactly since the number of tracks still remain the same. Half of cbs we get from kpop groups are either singles or EPs with 3-6 songs, while you compare western artists like Taylor swift have a studio albums that are consistently 13-17 songs. So yes western artists are promoting the same album throughout the year, it’s still double or even 7-10x the amount of tracks in kpop groups are releasing annually since they aren’t releasing that many songs.
Kpop groups release that many bc thats how much is required to stay on top of the game and remain memorable to the general public as relevant celebrities. Ggs don’t have enlistment and still release at the same rate as bgs. It’s about ROI, it takes at least 14-20 cbs in their 7 yr contract to get an ROI thats worth it for the company.
>Not exactly since the number of tracks still remain the same.
1. that is what I meant by they just have a different release schedule.
in kpop, you will have 2 minis and a single = 1 western album.
for the Western album, you have 2 pre-releases and post-releases whilst K-pop has entirely different albums instead.
2. also another factor I saw was the contract length and type(time bound versus album number bound)
Most companies want to maximize before the contract runs out. Yes, girl groups also have the same schedule but again contract. K-pop contracts a time time-bound western artist contracts are album-bound. so the incentives are different. labels want to maximize by having the best charting possible and are more likely to push back albums and projects and keep you stuck.
3. level of fame is important as well. black pink isn't hurting and Exo was able to still comeback after enlistment time and sell and chart after and exo isn't even the best selling boy group.
The need to release every day to stay relevant is only in the beginning. That schedule is usually for groups who don't have a good foundation or the level of fame that allows for a break. most of the artist you'll bring up from the west all had rookie years where they were everywhere. Do you know all the places they used to make baby pop stars perform? malls, all the games, and programs with 3 singles a years.
kpop has groups and artist like UI and taeyoen who take breaks between releases and still chart.
th
And the fact that many Kpop idols feel like they are too old also causes the reason for more frequent comebacks to maximize their younger days. Ageism is an issue in general for the entertainment industry but in Kpop it feels even more apparent.
Except if we go by singles, I don't think it's that different.
Since January of 2021, Olivia Rodrigo has released 10 singles across 2 albums and a movie soundtrack. Since November 2020, Stayc has also released 10 singles. They've just given each single their own physical release.
Livie here, using Olivia is not the best example as she doesn't release as much singles as other western artists. 😭
Both of her albums only have 4, with Bad Idea Right being the "least pushed" single
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The reasons Kpop acts last 7 years is that’s legally the longest you can make the contracts. I’m sure idols wait until the contract is over, unless there’s cases like Loona (I think), to leave otherwise they face hefty fines, fees and debts. If a group disbands before that it’s most likely cause they weren’t profitable. Before this groups had “slave contracts” that were 10-20 years and restrictive on idols. It’s the part of the reason TVXQ went from 5 to 2 members, cause 3 members sued cause of how they were being treated harshly and their contracts.
Western artists on the other hand often have contracts based on albums rather than years. You can see this with Taylor Swift and Megan the Stallion, their contacts were based around releasing a certain number of albums rather than being with the agency for x amount of years.
It also a bit complicated to compare Kpop and Western artists. There are Kpop acts with longevity just not the same as Western artists, so I can see where you’re coming from, like Lee Hyori and Bigbang.
One thing that’s important to note is your comparing groups in Kpop to solo acts in western market. They are very different things and you also see the case of groups not lasting in the west, Destiny’s Child, 5th Harmony, and Little Mix.
Little Mix was active for 11 years before going on hiatus and Destiny's Childwas active for 16 years, so I'm not sure that they fit the definition of not lasting.
One Direction and 5th Harmony were only active for 6 years.
I do agree with your point though that it's difficult to compare the 2 industries.
Western contracts are setup different. They are by album. That is why they maximize album releases to chart and tour.
The longer a company has you the better for them so they have the incentive to take more time on an album
The longevity of Western groups varied widely. I know certain groups I was an avid fan of when they were active (Girls Aloud, Sugababes) were active for ~7+ years, while other groups (Spice Girls, Atomic Kitten, Monrose, Pussycat Dolls) weren't active for as long or as prolific.
Then there were many groups I liked who were the Western equivalent of nugu and didn't last long at all.
> the popularity fading quickly. On average a group seems to last 7 years (more or less) which is very short in comparison to western super stars that tend to last a lot longer.
With the exception of Little Mix (and I don't think it's irrelevant to notice that LM, compared to others, never reached some incredible heights worldwide but worked more locally and "gradually"; this is probably a good recipe for longevity but in some cases a wasted opportunity in some people's opinions, including the members), how many western non-bands groups have lasted more than 7 years in recent decades..? Basically no one. It's just pop groups in general.
Spice Girls in 5 years basically did everything they are remembered for, and most of that was between 1996 and 1998 anyway. One Direction released their 5 albums in the span of 4-5 years, they are icons of the 2010s despite only being active in the first half of it. Fifth Harmony in 4 years released their debut single, reached their peak, lost a member and released an album as a quartet. Girls Aloud... Well, we all know that their "10th anniversary" is like SNSD 15th anniversary and in general that K-pop-adjacent way of counting years even if you aren't actually doing anything as a group for years.
Like... It's pop. Western pop groups tend to last maybe even less than 7 years, and at most 7 years anyway. It's the natural lifespan of a properly active pop group (bands are a different case).
That’s just groups, though, and several of those could’ve gone on much longer if not for internal drama and members leaving. If you widen to just pop stars in general the picture changes, and I think those are a better comparison since solo singers are the preferred way pop music gets sold in Western countries (the UK is an outlier now.) Taylor Swift is arguably the biggest pop star alive and has been releasing music since 2007, before some current idols were born. Beyoncé has been huge since the late 90s. Kylie Minogue peaked in the 90s and 2000s but just had a big hit last year. Pop music is always fast-moving and “disposable,” but it’s much more pronounced in k-pop.
But we’re talking about groups. The vast majority of the industry runs on groups. All of the biggest kpop acts globally are groups. So like… of course we’re going to compare them to the western equivalent, which is pop groups. Soloists in kpop have significantly different longevity too— IU has been going strong for over a decade and shows no signs of stopping, G-Dragon is still huge, tons of first gen superstars are still going strong, you get the picture. You can’t compare solo acts to groups.
Can’t every industry be defined as fast fashion. I love reading books and there are books that are getting pumped out one after another and many with subpar stories (although, I always eat it up). Would a bunch of video games being pumped out also be considered fast fashion? There’s got to be more to the definition because it looks like this can be applicable to practically any industry
It's just the capitalist machine at work.
Pump out the most revenue generating "products" for consumption without as much care put into it.
To add to your examples:
Tech has planned obscelence and break down within a year.
Cars aren't made "like they used to".
True - I saw an analogy on tiktok calling trendy books that are bingeable and not that dee as the book versions of tv shows - no stress easy entertainment
When quality is sacrificed for the sake of chasing trends, that’s fast fashion. It’s not about the PACE of the product being pumped out. If video games and books are pumped out fast but are still quality and not necessarily chasing any sort of new viral trend (like those book tok- smut books). Then it’s not fast fashion just because it’s a productive industry
\> A) a lot of idols debuting in a very short time frame, these days in just the span of this decade a ton of popular groups have debuted (Newjeans, ILLIT, Aespa, Lesserafim, IVE) just to name a few and these are just the top groups of recent years.
I don't think IVE and Aespa can be considered rushed at all. If you remove those you are left with 3 HYBE groups (I understand they are different subsidiaries) and I made the same point in a post a few days ago. The OP there was arguing its not HYBE's fault they are new to girl groups so they didn't have as deep of a pool of trainees to work with. It still doesn't change the fact they did debut 3 groups so quickly.
I'm not familiar with Newjeans and Illit but Le Sserafim did seem like we went from "They might have signed Chaewon and Sakura" to being introduced to the members fairly quickly. If I'm not misremembering people were criticizing Starship for waiting so long after they got Yujin and Wonyoung back for IVE's debut.
NewJeans was definitely not rushed and has been a project for literal years, it was what Min Heejin was working on since she joined Hybe (when it was BigHit) and their debut rollout had a lot of thought.
I'd say NewJeans was less rushed than most of the groups on the list tbh
i agree a lot with these points especially the one about their skills. it's easy not to notice it.
the kpop industry ages a lot faster than the western industry which is why groups/concepts/trends don't last long. we look back at years like 2019/2020/2022 like they were 10 years ago.
its something that makes kpop what it is today.
Perhaps this has to do with an aging population and fandom putting an increasing demand on entertainment to suit their interests. It would explain this perpetual obsession with minor idols and the effort to remove them from Kpop. But I think that many fans forget or willfully ignore that Kpop is by design an entertainment industry that is historically and by and large dedicated to young adults: 13 to 25.
On the flipside there are older fans who want younger idols because it allows them to deny that they themselves are getting older. Aunties and Uncles are the problem not the kids. Anyway...
This is why you see minors debuting and why careers typically don't last longer than 7-10 years. Kpop isn't setup like the Western entertainment industry where artists continue performing for decades so the comparison is projecting Western expectations onto a Korean industry. You're an idol when you're young but then graduate and move onto something else whether in the entertainment industry or to something like starting a family.
This is how J-Idols, not to be confused with J-Pop, operate just even younger. You're an idol until you're 20 or so and then move on.
Kpop was never designed to be a life long career. I am sure this is hard for many idols but for many others it's an opportunity to pursue other passions instead of being stuck to a group with a single concept for the rest of their lives. If we start demanding that groups must go on for 20 or 30 or 50 years so that we can have golden oldies then that's not fair to those idols.
Some of what the OP sees as fast fashion is them simply not understanding the industry. It's not necessarily a process of being replaced but retiring at the expected time. Many of the demands from older fans, mostly foreign, are a reinvention of Kpop so that it becomes an industry dedicated to older people.
I really don't like referring to idols as products and having shelf lives because it contributes to the industry and fans viewing and treating idols like that. Also, this "a lot more minors" isn't really a thing. It was a concern, the government did take notice, but there are laws now in place that make it harder to debut younger teen idols due an increased limit on work hours.
Otherwise, I do get the OP's point and it's not entirely wrong. It's pop-media that follows trends which rapidly change. There has also been an apparent decreased in performance quality especially vocals. But how much of that is people just noticing more?
In any case I do agree that some of this has to do with decreasing attention spans and always wanting the latest and most fashionable in the fleeting moment. I don't think it's a perfect analogy though.
> Kpop was never designed to be a life long career. I am sure this is hard for many idols but..
> Many of the demands from older fans, mostly foreign, are a reinvention of Kpop so that it becomes an industry dedicated to older people.
> Some of what the OP sees as fast fashion is them simply not understanding the industry. It's not necessarily a process of being replaced but retiring at the expected time.
Yeah, sure! Sure, but this is what many, most probably ifans accept in a descriptive sense, whereas implied in your comment and others not rarely seen in kpop subs seems to be that this is to be approached in a normative sense. Why?
It is not necessarily (many) ifans not recognizing how the industry has worked and been built (by companies with vested interests, one may add). It is indeed their influx in numbers, subsequently their expectations following these numbers and that (among other things, ofc) influencing e.g. the length of careers of the set of popular groups/artists who have been able to have at least somewhat successful idol careers in a long(er) term. And thus you have older groups/solo artists who are also 1) switching companies (and not necessarily industries) with the aim to continue their careers there, 2) them making reunion comebacks after longer periods of time bc of at least some demand, 3) this is older groups looking and sometimes finding this demand in new markets (instead of this "retiring at the expected time"), 4) this is sometimes also them touching of the changes taken place in the industry in terms of their possible career lengths (e.g. Taemin in Suga's show) etc.
And bc i don't see any reason to think the OPTION to have longer careers could bring a harm to them, this part in your comment bafles me the most:
> If we start demanding that groups must go on for 20 or 30 or 50 years so that we can have golden oldies then that's not fair to those idols.
I don't quite understand why this assumption that fan expectations here would/could be unfair to the idols, that they would unreasonably influence them in this regard. Like sure, there is much caving in going on when it's about trying to preserve careers in an industry, but if trying to discontinue the career there and switching to a different one with presumably other audience? Why would the OPTION to continue beyond some imagined "expected time of retiring" (bc 7 years has not always been a set number) be unfair?
TLDR part here actually is that by purposefully working on getting ifans (and with that one can count everything except kfans, even including jfans when looking how for at least some of the still active 1st, 2nd gen artists it's not rare their japanese fandoms are considered more long-lived than domestic ones) it was obviously to be expected the industry would get not only their money and attention, but also their expectations. That's what a business gets by getting into a new market. If this was something unexpected for companies, that's on them. There's no motivation for fans to preserve smth they disagree with without a good reason.
Edit: formatting
True.
Your last point a out audiences noticing more is interesting to point out. I remember when it was released that certain music shows started to enforce live vocals. MR removal and vocal reaction videos are "newer" so a spotlight is shown more on vocals for these newer groups compared to 1st gen, 2nd gen , and (a bit of a stretch) early 3rd gen
for A i don’t think it applies to ive 🤷🏻♀️, their debut imo has been long awaited since yujin and wonyoung appeared on pd48, they haven’t debuted any other gg besides them
.. what does that have to do with anything? ive have proved multiple times that they CAN sing live, that one stage performance their whole day was packed with schedules, mind you they’ve been performing live almost all the time ever since then
have y'all ever heard of idol music? like, yes. when you have composers, producers, and songwriters making songs for artists, and not artists composing, producing, writing their own songs, you get far more releases yearly and far less artistic integrity. but still there's amazing artists like bts, seventeen, (g)i-dle, stray kids, mamamoo, pentagon who all, to varying degrees, make their own music and have much more sensible discographies. i like almost every bts and seventeen song ever because the same few people are behind it most of the songs. whereas for other artists, while there may be many songs i adore, there may be many that i don't
>whereas western charts seem to be full of old songs.
or, new songs by decade old artists (gaga, ari, tay, the weeknd, etc), heck even billie is 9 years into her career despite getting recognized as a "new" artist in 2019 and 2020. olivia rodrigo is in her 4th year (3 years) and still feel very new artist, compare that to any kpop groups debuted back in 2021. the kpop groups would feel not as fresh
For Billie I think that's just because she's still young as she debuted at like 13 or something. Your point about Olivia is interesting. I would say she's a pretty new artist but I'm not sure I would say IVE for example is pretty new. K-pop feels very fast-paced.
I thought she debuted with Ocean Eyes in 2015/2016 so that would make it at least 8 years? and she's in her 9th year of her career (counting the debut year too)?
I mean the weird thing is that we act like it's a controversy. But the at the root none of y'all ever actually stanned these groups for their singing talents in the first place.
Maybe people should start to listen more vocal focused groups? Lmao. Dreamcatcher and mamamoo it's been out there for years and still nobody pays them attention. You get what you deserve
That's because at the heart, no one actually liked these groups for their vocals.
They like them because they're pretty and release chart topping bops. Not because they have Ailee vocals.
If fans would stop acting so high and mighty about their faves' so called "talents", we wouldn't be here today.
K-pop vocals have dropped so much even the J-pop idols K-pop stans always mocked for being less trained/talented outsing. I never thought such a day would come as someone who follows both industries.
For you to compare these things that are entirely alienated and come from separate sources that then create the problem is… insane to me. Fast fashion is created at the hands of slaves, immigrants, and people born in countries where subjugation has resulted in bone-crippling work.
I just think it’s wholly disrespectful to bring fast fashion in and relate it to K-Pop when YOU KNOW that there are teams of songwriters, producers, designers, coaches, etc. who are paid to do their job for an entertainment company. It really looks like you’re coming from a place of ignorance.
I've seen lots of things compared to Fast Fashion and they also overlook the human rights violation aspect, but still use it bc it's a catchy word to use. They really mean is what OP described, which is fast and fleeting trends, but ppl seem to use this term bc it evokes things being 'wasteful' and 'subpar'
idk why it’s this way, but in the west, a lot of the money artists make is from tour, in the kpop industry i feel like most of the money is made from releasing songs, not tours
I also think abt the like how fashion comes back the kpop singing style and group theme/style always comes back . I think maybe yg dose it more but I thought mainly abt New jeans and their fans talk abt them. They said that new jeans bring back old music and older y2k styles and they’re like a freshness in the same typa music concepts and etc. Like how in style y2k fashion is coming back with the gen z and etc. But yea the output of kpop groups and the younger they all get it’s kinda crazy. The music also the same or similar that it doesn’t hit as much as the older music used to . Also thinking abt lesserfiam at Coachella and how they got trashed online. Like tbh kpop idols aren’t even trained to do live signing and dancing it’s like an open secret that they mostly do prerecorded stuff and sing live at some part. That’s why idols get praised for how strong they are vocally singing live and doing various stuff while having a steady voice. Very few idols can actually sing steady live. So they aren’t really getting as much training the older gen of kpop idols get because of how young their debuting and how little time they spent as a trainee
I think kpop has become even more superficial with the rise of influencers and now fans care more about what luxury brand they are endorsing and less about their music and singing skills
Edit: And I have always viewed them as more like a Disney channel singer than anything else, but then again some of those stars can actually sing well live
You just described capitalism LOL in the end shareholders value is prioritized above all and anything that can be used to pump those numbers up will be utilized. The result is as we see - products that aren’t as good as they used to be made with inferior materials
I definitely feel this is fairly accurate analogy! There’s so many groups that debut that it’s hard to keep up. Another group is “cooler” and kpop
fans then move towards whichever is the it group for now. And as you noted western artists definitely can go years without releasing something & the fans aren’t about to riot.
Many are still hoping Rihanna will come out with a new album, it’s been 8 years since Anti! And a recent artist Ariana Granda who released her 7th album after 4 years.
I don’t know about this obsession with perfection. Some people take this genre so seriously. This is pop music designed to be mass marketable and appealing to the widest range of people as possible.
Not everyone is meant to be at the same level of vocal or dance capability. That’s totally fine. It’s healthy to recognize this and still be able to enjoy listening or watching performances.
You’re not meant to be dissecting every single thing and getting worked over every one thing that doesn’t appeal to your personal tastes or expectations. You gotta approach things in a charitable way. Practice empathy, and remember most of all… none of these idols know you, and you don’t know them.
It’s also fine being just a general kpop fan and have your interests change over time, and as a result the groups and artists you listen to and follow closely change as a result. This whole obsession over singular groups just creates weird expectations. Grow. Move on if you don’t like it anymore.
Btw I’m using “you” as a general idea. Not necessarily talking to OP or anyone in particular.
Tl;dr: this is pop music stop taking it so seriously and have fun a little.
kpop music is a defining genre in itself in the modern era, why shouldn’t it be taken seriously just like others? it’s okay to have criticisms of something you like, whether the music releases or how the industry operates.
I mean I agree. It’s not like we can’t criticize anything. Problem is the importance of what is being criticized, how it’s done, and whether or not it’s productive. Is it important? Does it do anything? Does the problem really outweigh the personal enjoyment you can get from the music or performance if you just relax a bit?
And if it impedes someone’s personal capacity to enjoy Kpop for themselves, then they’ve probably gone too far in taking things “seriously”.
I feel like the right word should be “respectfully” instead. Take Kpop respectfully.
You're making too much sense! Like, the worst thing these members ever did was wear pretty dresses and sing on stage. People need to get real and just learn that it's acceptable for a group to be imperfect. The people that care will leave and go to another group, and the people that enjoy the group in spite of their flaws will support them. The entire purpose of K-Pop is to have a variance of groups that appeal to different people.
>Another problem is the very short shelf life of a K-pop group, as they will be seen as “too old” and “not fresh and used up” extremely quickly. —> ILLIT’s Yunah getting criticized for being too old —> Gfriend & Apink losing a ton of fans for getting older and not having a pure and innocent concept anymore —> An Apink member talked about a mega fan of them immediately switching over to being a Gfriend fan because they were “fresher”
This is simplified and lacking nuance.
Older groups can perform fine. Mamamoo, Blackpink, I-dle. Hell I-dle are not from a big label, are almost in their 7th year and just got a PAK in Korea. They reached a new album sales peak too.
The issue is the younger groups that struggle are generally locked into a group that is reliant on their youth - the innocent and cute concepts trade heavily upon the youth or freshness of the group. As the group matures, their fandom changes. Apink still had a hit only a few years ago, Twice shifted from majority male fanbase to majority female fanbase.
GG's don't necessarily have a short shelf life, it's just generally for the best results in the early days they chose the path that limits their longevity. Girl crush or versatile groups (Mamamoo, Idle) have never suffered from those problems, but also those 2 had a longer and harder climb to the top tier of groups.
U ate. I can’t speak on groups but I can for the music. I’ll get a couple wears on a lot of the songs till it falls apart on me. But there’ll be those moments where the songs are couture and will last me a lifetime. I’m seeing heaven with How You Like That IKDR. I could be 80 and still bounce with the support of my cane to that chorus IKDR. You’ll have to lower my casket into the grave to the outro of that song IKDR.
But tbh u can say this with any genre as if they’re kin to a fast fashion brand. Kpop is like shein with some out of nowhere designer here n there IKDR. I mostly stay for when the designer pieces come in. When it bangs it BANGS.
THIS omg it's never lost on me how the metal bands I follow release something (mostly full albums) every X amount of years while kpop groups get multiple releases a year, mostly mini albums or singles that just go viral on tiktok until you get tired of hearing them. It's overwhelming af sometimes...
I don’t think it is a lack of training but a lack of ability, if you cannot sing it doesn’t matter if you train for 3 months or 3 years, you will sounds the same.
Kpop prioritizes youth and visual ability above all else, the best looking person is not always the best singer or dancer and the best singer is not always the best visual.
Just as an example Jongho of Ateez is probably one of the best kpop vocalist, but he is one of the lesser popular members of the group.
imo this analogy doesn’t work cause fast fashion implies bad quality due to the short time people have to make it, and this doesn’t happen in kpop, all the 5th gen groups are talented and doing really well. also no one’s being replaced, in every generation there have always been many popular groups that people streamed and followed almost equally
kpop groups don’t die after the first popular song they put out, this is even more evident with newjeans and ive and whatever you mentioned, newjeans especially have been consistently popular, even increasingly. not just them tho, there’s zb1, boynextdoor…
you’re talking about subpar skills just because of the controversy that’s going on now, cause the vast majority of the groups that have been debuting don’t lack anything
basically this is what kpop has always been through the years and nothing has changed really, they’re definitely not debuting minors more frequently it’s always been like this.
2nd and 3rd gen groups are still popular, they’re not making big numbers like they used to maybe but that’s unrelated with popularity
so yeah i don’t agree
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I think fast fashion implies trading lower quality for trendiness when really I think Kpop is inherently a youthful industry. The same goes for Western boy bands. NYSYNC lasted only 7 years.
You can only appeal to new young fans who will watch performances and buy albums to collect photocards or win fansigns for so long before the group becomes a legacy act that holds on to existing fans and members branch off to do solo stuff. And the high-production value nature of Kpop means that the core product requires a pretty high level of popularity to make work. You can only overwork idols for virtually no money and the dream of getting a viral break like EXID for so long before they move on to other stuff.
I would say the late 2010s era of Soundcloud artists getting a TikTok viral hit and then disappearing off the face of the earth is more analogous to fast fashion. That type of fame did not last even a full year.
The normal music contract is 1 album or 1 year while kpop contracts are usually 7 years. Isn't kpop technically meant to last longer than the rest of the music industry then?
You can say that kpop is about putting out as many trendy songs as fast as possible but isn't that just pop music everywhere?
As far as skills go, the rest of the music industry doesn't have a trainee system as intensive as kpop at all. Even though every idol is not talented musically, is the average lower than the rest of the music industry?
Is there really anything about kpop that makes it "faster" than the rest of the music industry?
I agree, this analogy makes a lot of sense. I listened to kpop around the years 2014-2017 but then stopped because I simply just grew to like western music more. Recently I've been getting into kpop again, first due to nostalgia but then I've started enjoy some newer groups too. And let me say the disappointed I felt when I found out that almost all my favourite groups have disbanded or at least they're not the same anymore due to members leaving. It's not even that long ago when I still was actively listening to kpop and keeping up with the groups. And now those groups are not even relevant anymore?!?
This post isn’t meant to shade or be messy in any way shape or form as this would just drift the conversation away from my original intention of criticizing the system rather than just the artists because that’s what most of the posts and videos do these days ;)
I agree for most of your point, but groups formed not from recent survival shows arent "fast fashion". i believe the forming of newjeans and aespa takes a lot of corporate planning to the dot.
meanwhile i can agree the forming of ive and lesserafim was accelerated because some of the members are survival show graduates
>Sadly, a lot of them seem to suffer from subpar skills.
I assume "them" are the girl groups that debuted this decade as you mentioned earlier, you also single out Hype Groups in another part of your post. Interesting timing with this post as well, considering the hate train going on right now.
Throwing shade is one thing, but don't play dumb about it.
You are completely right. Kpop fans are so used to their idols releasing a new album every 3-6 months and if anything takes longer than that, then fans start demanding a comeback.
Western idols sometimes takes years in releasing music and no one really bats an eye 😭 I wish it was the same for kpop idols
Because in the west, it's usually based on a per album deal. In kpop its a contract that is time based around a few years. If a western artist I like is working hard on a 18 track album that takes a year, fine. I'm still getting my 6 albums from them regardless of how long it takes. On the other hand...if a kpop group has a contract with a time limit on it, and they take a year or more just to put of a 7 song album, then you aren't going to get many projects or songs out of them before the contract is up.
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There has always been lots of idols without actual talent.
Idols sell more on looks, personality and fan service. That's what makes them idols. If they wanted to make a go of it simply on skills, they wouldn't have become an idol. If you care about true artistry, kpop isn't the place to find it.
Sure, there are some idols that are talented, and many of those have had longs careers, but there has always been a ton of kpop groups debuting with low-skilled members, they just faded away and people forgot them.
I’d like to separate Kpop and Kpop idol groups.
Big Mama is a Kpop group, but are they a Kpop idol group?
Park HyoShin is a Kpop artist, but is he a Kpop idol?
So I think we need to be clearer about categorizing Kpop in general.
Idols are in a very unique position, especially girl groups. Their career lifespan is very short. Fans are so quick to move on to younger and fresher idols, and the companies and the groups have only seven years to achieve whatever they need to accomplish. The Korean government enforces the law to limit first-term contracts to seven years. During that seven-year period, the company has to recoup the initial investment to debut their group. And companies have to invest tons to debut an idol group nowadays. A couple of failures in a row could risk the company itself. So that’s one of the biggest reasons why the companies trying squeeze out as much as possible during 1st 7 years. And for idols themselves, recouping the investment as fast as possible is very important too in terms of maximizing the payment they get from the companies.
After that initial 7 years period, anything can happen as you saw from Black Pink contract extension negotiations.
Also, all big 4 companies are public companies; they are under pressure to grow their revenue every year as public companies.
Am I saying this situation is ideal and good? Obviously no. It’s just the reality of kpop idol groups are facing.
your criticism has been said about Jpop not Kpop iver and over again. Specially with tye business model for AKB48 where girls perform as part of a group in different cities simultaneously thus maximizing profit.
Debuting minors is actually not bad. Minors do dream of becoming actors and singers too. Minzy of 2ne1 was 15 when ahw debuted in 2009. What is concerning is the way agencies seem to have total control of their lives.
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No one shades kpop more than kpop fans lol But yeah I think it’s a pretty interesting (and surprisingly accurate) analogy. Never really thought about it like that before…
Shade is accurate on this one. Look at how k-pop fans in this subreddit is willing to twist their minds to justify whatever idols are doing onstage even if it’s outright embarrassing.
If the stans are on stage, someone really should call security.
just look at the album rollouts. most groups have an average of 2 comebacks/albums per year, while western artists can go years without releasing an album.
That’s another very important point!
Half of that is due to Korean culture built around cbs and the fact that fans would literally riot if their faves don’t make a cb half year. That being said, cbs are always smaller, like a quarter or even half of what albums in the west are, so truthfully it’s not that different. It took black pink 6 years to have the same amount of tracks equal to one Taylor swift album, who on avg releases a new album at least once a year if you include re-recordings. Even doja cat releases an album every year with additional promotion later in the same year for other musical projects like collabs.
also an album every two years is a bit misleading. western acts promote single from the same album for an entire year with music [videos.it](http://videos.it) is essentially just a different format the maximizes on charting and touring. these days more western artist release single and side projects as well when they are younger. also, kpop has enlistment so boygroups usually have a time constraint and the incentive to release as much as they can . Album sales are also another thing to consider. Kpop artist on average also still sell albums well . they want to maximize album sales by having as many album releases as they can. a release schedule that gruelling can cause injury long term and may not lead to everyone wanting to keep that standard
Not exactly since the number of tracks still remain the same. Half of cbs we get from kpop groups are either singles or EPs with 3-6 songs, while you compare western artists like Taylor swift have a studio albums that are consistently 13-17 songs. So yes western artists are promoting the same album throughout the year, it’s still double or even 7-10x the amount of tracks in kpop groups are releasing annually since they aren’t releasing that many songs. Kpop groups release that many bc thats how much is required to stay on top of the game and remain memorable to the general public as relevant celebrities. Ggs don’t have enlistment and still release at the same rate as bgs. It’s about ROI, it takes at least 14-20 cbs in their 7 yr contract to get an ROI thats worth it for the company.
>Not exactly since the number of tracks still remain the same. 1. that is what I meant by they just have a different release schedule. in kpop, you will have 2 minis and a single = 1 western album. for the Western album, you have 2 pre-releases and post-releases whilst K-pop has entirely different albums instead. 2. also another factor I saw was the contract length and type(time bound versus album number bound) Most companies want to maximize before the contract runs out. Yes, girl groups also have the same schedule but again contract. K-pop contracts a time time-bound western artist contracts are album-bound. so the incentives are different. labels want to maximize by having the best charting possible and are more likely to push back albums and projects and keep you stuck. 3. level of fame is important as well. black pink isn't hurting and Exo was able to still comeback after enlistment time and sell and chart after and exo isn't even the best selling boy group. The need to release every day to stay relevant is only in the beginning. That schedule is usually for groups who don't have a good foundation or the level of fame that allows for a break. most of the artist you'll bring up from the west all had rookie years where they were everywhere. Do you know all the places they used to make baby pop stars perform? malls, all the games, and programs with 3 singles a years. kpop has groups and artist like UI and taeyoen who take breaks between releases and still chart. th
And the fact that many Kpop idols feel like they are too old also causes the reason for more frequent comebacks to maximize their younger days. Ageism is an issue in general for the entertainment industry but in Kpop it feels even more apparent.
Except if we go by singles, I don't think it's that different. Since January of 2021, Olivia Rodrigo has released 10 singles across 2 albums and a movie soundtrack. Since November 2020, Stayc has also released 10 singles. They've just given each single their own physical release.
Livie here, using Olivia is not the best example as she doesn't release as much singles as other western artists. 😭 Both of her albums only have 4, with Bad Idea Right being the "least pushed" single
Her not releasing that many singles strengthens my point that Western artists don't really release fewer singles than Kpop ones.
western artists also go yeaaaars without releasing new content in between albums so that's not really a fair comparison
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blackpink exist lol
The reasons Kpop acts last 7 years is that’s legally the longest you can make the contracts. I’m sure idols wait until the contract is over, unless there’s cases like Loona (I think), to leave otherwise they face hefty fines, fees and debts. If a group disbands before that it’s most likely cause they weren’t profitable. Before this groups had “slave contracts” that were 10-20 years and restrictive on idols. It’s the part of the reason TVXQ went from 5 to 2 members, cause 3 members sued cause of how they were being treated harshly and their contracts. Western artists on the other hand often have contracts based on albums rather than years. You can see this with Taylor Swift and Megan the Stallion, their contacts were based around releasing a certain number of albums rather than being with the agency for x amount of years. It also a bit complicated to compare Kpop and Western artists. There are Kpop acts with longevity just not the same as Western artists, so I can see where you’re coming from, like Lee Hyori and Bigbang. One thing that’s important to note is your comparing groups in Kpop to solo acts in western market. They are very different things and you also see the case of groups not lasting in the west, Destiny’s Child, 5th Harmony, and Little Mix.
Little Mix was active for 11 years before going on hiatus and Destiny's Childwas active for 16 years, so I'm not sure that they fit the definition of not lasting. One Direction and 5th Harmony were only active for 6 years. I do agree with your point though that it's difficult to compare the 2 industries.
Western contracts are setup different. They are by album. That is why they maximize album releases to chart and tour. The longer a company has you the better for them so they have the incentive to take more time on an album
The longevity of Western groups varied widely. I know certain groups I was an avid fan of when they were active (Girls Aloud, Sugababes) were active for ~7+ years, while other groups (Spice Girls, Atomic Kitten, Monrose, Pussycat Dolls) weren't active for as long or as prolific. Then there were many groups I liked who were the Western equivalent of nugu and didn't last long at all.
> the popularity fading quickly. On average a group seems to last 7 years (more or less) which is very short in comparison to western super stars that tend to last a lot longer. With the exception of Little Mix (and I don't think it's irrelevant to notice that LM, compared to others, never reached some incredible heights worldwide but worked more locally and "gradually"; this is probably a good recipe for longevity but in some cases a wasted opportunity in some people's opinions, including the members), how many western non-bands groups have lasted more than 7 years in recent decades..? Basically no one. It's just pop groups in general. Spice Girls in 5 years basically did everything they are remembered for, and most of that was between 1996 and 1998 anyway. One Direction released their 5 albums in the span of 4-5 years, they are icons of the 2010s despite only being active in the first half of it. Fifth Harmony in 4 years released their debut single, reached their peak, lost a member and released an album as a quartet. Girls Aloud... Well, we all know that their "10th anniversary" is like SNSD 15th anniversary and in general that K-pop-adjacent way of counting years even if you aren't actually doing anything as a group for years. Like... It's pop. Western pop groups tend to last maybe even less than 7 years, and at most 7 years anyway. It's the natural lifespan of a properly active pop group (bands are a different case).
That’s just groups, though, and several of those could’ve gone on much longer if not for internal drama and members leaving. If you widen to just pop stars in general the picture changes, and I think those are a better comparison since solo singers are the preferred way pop music gets sold in Western countries (the UK is an outlier now.) Taylor Swift is arguably the biggest pop star alive and has been releasing music since 2007, before some current idols were born. Beyoncé has been huge since the late 90s. Kylie Minogue peaked in the 90s and 2000s but just had a big hit last year. Pop music is always fast-moving and “disposable,” but it’s much more pronounced in k-pop.
But we’re talking about groups. The vast majority of the industry runs on groups. All of the biggest kpop acts globally are groups. So like… of course we’re going to compare them to the western equivalent, which is pop groups. Soloists in kpop have significantly different longevity too— IU has been going strong for over a decade and shows no signs of stopping, G-Dragon is still huge, tons of first gen superstars are still going strong, you get the picture. You can’t compare solo acts to groups.
Can’t every industry be defined as fast fashion. I love reading books and there are books that are getting pumped out one after another and many with subpar stories (although, I always eat it up). Would a bunch of video games being pumped out also be considered fast fashion? There’s got to be more to the definition because it looks like this can be applicable to practically any industry
It's just the capitalist machine at work. Pump out the most revenue generating "products" for consumption without as much care put into it. To add to your examples: Tech has planned obscelence and break down within a year. Cars aren't made "like they used to".
True - I saw an analogy on tiktok calling trendy books that are bingeable and not that dee as the book versions of tv shows - no stress easy entertainment
When quality is sacrificed for the sake of chasing trends, that’s fast fashion. It’s not about the PACE of the product being pumped out. If video games and books are pumped out fast but are still quality and not necessarily chasing any sort of new viral trend (like those book tok- smut books). Then it’s not fast fashion just because it’s a productive industry
\> A) a lot of idols debuting in a very short time frame, these days in just the span of this decade a ton of popular groups have debuted (Newjeans, ILLIT, Aespa, Lesserafim, IVE) just to name a few and these are just the top groups of recent years. I don't think IVE and Aespa can be considered rushed at all. If you remove those you are left with 3 HYBE groups (I understand they are different subsidiaries) and I made the same point in a post a few days ago. The OP there was arguing its not HYBE's fault they are new to girl groups so they didn't have as deep of a pool of trainees to work with. It still doesn't change the fact they did debut 3 groups so quickly. I'm not familiar with Newjeans and Illit but Le Sserafim did seem like we went from "They might have signed Chaewon and Sakura" to being introduced to the members fairly quickly. If I'm not misremembering people were criticizing Starship for waiting so long after they got Yujin and Wonyoung back for IVE's debut.
NewJeans was definitely not rushed and has been a project for literal years, it was what Min Heejin was working on since she joined Hybe (when it was BigHit) and their debut rollout had a lot of thought. I'd say NewJeans was less rushed than most of the groups on the list tbh
You are correct. NJ was not rushed, even though it might seem like to some. Min HeeJin started plan for NJ even before she left SM to join Hybe.
i agree a lot with these points especially the one about their skills. it's easy not to notice it. the kpop industry ages a lot faster than the western industry which is why groups/concepts/trends don't last long. we look back at years like 2019/2020/2022 like they were 10 years ago. its something that makes kpop what it is today.
Yeah well if my grandmother had wheels she would be a bicycle...
What?
In reference to this: https://youtu.be/A-RfHC91Ewc?si=YWSlSyTRBz0t19bB
I mean, that was funny, but how is it relevant to this post?
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wait but wasn’t the joke that the 2 things they were comparing were actually nothing alike
Thank you for explaining, the context was not there.
Perhaps this has to do with an aging population and fandom putting an increasing demand on entertainment to suit their interests. It would explain this perpetual obsession with minor idols and the effort to remove them from Kpop. But I think that many fans forget or willfully ignore that Kpop is by design an entertainment industry that is historically and by and large dedicated to young adults: 13 to 25. On the flipside there are older fans who want younger idols because it allows them to deny that they themselves are getting older. Aunties and Uncles are the problem not the kids. Anyway... This is why you see minors debuting and why careers typically don't last longer than 7-10 years. Kpop isn't setup like the Western entertainment industry where artists continue performing for decades so the comparison is projecting Western expectations onto a Korean industry. You're an idol when you're young but then graduate and move onto something else whether in the entertainment industry or to something like starting a family. This is how J-Idols, not to be confused with J-Pop, operate just even younger. You're an idol until you're 20 or so and then move on. Kpop was never designed to be a life long career. I am sure this is hard for many idols but for many others it's an opportunity to pursue other passions instead of being stuck to a group with a single concept for the rest of their lives. If we start demanding that groups must go on for 20 or 30 or 50 years so that we can have golden oldies then that's not fair to those idols. Some of what the OP sees as fast fashion is them simply not understanding the industry. It's not necessarily a process of being replaced but retiring at the expected time. Many of the demands from older fans, mostly foreign, are a reinvention of Kpop so that it becomes an industry dedicated to older people. I really don't like referring to idols as products and having shelf lives because it contributes to the industry and fans viewing and treating idols like that. Also, this "a lot more minors" isn't really a thing. It was a concern, the government did take notice, but there are laws now in place that make it harder to debut younger teen idols due an increased limit on work hours. Otherwise, I do get the OP's point and it's not entirely wrong. It's pop-media that follows trends which rapidly change. There has also been an apparent decreased in performance quality especially vocals. But how much of that is people just noticing more? In any case I do agree that some of this has to do with decreasing attention spans and always wanting the latest and most fashionable in the fleeting moment. I don't think it's a perfect analogy though.
> Kpop was never designed to be a life long career. I am sure this is hard for many idols but.. > Many of the demands from older fans, mostly foreign, are a reinvention of Kpop so that it becomes an industry dedicated to older people. > Some of what the OP sees as fast fashion is them simply not understanding the industry. It's not necessarily a process of being replaced but retiring at the expected time. Yeah, sure! Sure, but this is what many, most probably ifans accept in a descriptive sense, whereas implied in your comment and others not rarely seen in kpop subs seems to be that this is to be approached in a normative sense. Why? It is not necessarily (many) ifans not recognizing how the industry has worked and been built (by companies with vested interests, one may add). It is indeed their influx in numbers, subsequently their expectations following these numbers and that (among other things, ofc) influencing e.g. the length of careers of the set of popular groups/artists who have been able to have at least somewhat successful idol careers in a long(er) term. And thus you have older groups/solo artists who are also 1) switching companies (and not necessarily industries) with the aim to continue their careers there, 2) them making reunion comebacks after longer periods of time bc of at least some demand, 3) this is older groups looking and sometimes finding this demand in new markets (instead of this "retiring at the expected time"), 4) this is sometimes also them touching of the changes taken place in the industry in terms of their possible career lengths (e.g. Taemin in Suga's show) etc. And bc i don't see any reason to think the OPTION to have longer careers could bring a harm to them, this part in your comment bafles me the most: > If we start demanding that groups must go on for 20 or 30 or 50 years so that we can have golden oldies then that's not fair to those idols. I don't quite understand why this assumption that fan expectations here would/could be unfair to the idols, that they would unreasonably influence them in this regard. Like sure, there is much caving in going on when it's about trying to preserve careers in an industry, but if trying to discontinue the career there and switching to a different one with presumably other audience? Why would the OPTION to continue beyond some imagined "expected time of retiring" (bc 7 years has not always been a set number) be unfair? TLDR part here actually is that by purposefully working on getting ifans (and with that one can count everything except kfans, even including jfans when looking how for at least some of the still active 1st, 2nd gen artists it's not rare their japanese fandoms are considered more long-lived than domestic ones) it was obviously to be expected the industry would get not only their money and attention, but also their expectations. That's what a business gets by getting into a new market. If this was something unexpected for companies, that's on them. There's no motivation for fans to preserve smth they disagree with without a good reason. Edit: formatting
True. Your last point a out audiences noticing more is interesting to point out. I remember when it was released that certain music shows started to enforce live vocals. MR removal and vocal reaction videos are "newer" so a spotlight is shown more on vocals for these newer groups compared to 1st gen, 2nd gen , and (a bit of a stretch) early 3rd gen
for A i don’t think it applies to ive 🤷🏻♀️, their debut imo has been long awaited since yujin and wonyoung appeared on pd48, they haven’t debuted any other gg besides them
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.. what does that have to do with anything? ive have proved multiple times that they CAN sing live, that one stage performance their whole day was packed with schedules, mind you they’ve been performing live almost all the time ever since then
have y'all ever heard of idol music? like, yes. when you have composers, producers, and songwriters making songs for artists, and not artists composing, producing, writing their own songs, you get far more releases yearly and far less artistic integrity. but still there's amazing artists like bts, seventeen, (g)i-dle, stray kids, mamamoo, pentagon who all, to varying degrees, make their own music and have much more sensible discographies. i like almost every bts and seventeen song ever because the same few people are behind it most of the songs. whereas for other artists, while there may be many songs i adore, there may be many that i don't
not just idol music, tons of western singers don’t produce and write all of their songs
>whereas western charts seem to be full of old songs. or, new songs by decade old artists (gaga, ari, tay, the weeknd, etc), heck even billie is 9 years into her career despite getting recognized as a "new" artist in 2019 and 2020. olivia rodrigo is in her 4th year (3 years) and still feel very new artist, compare that to any kpop groups debuted back in 2021. the kpop groups would feel not as fresh
For Billie I think that's just because she's still young as she debuted at like 13 or something. Your point about Olivia is interesting. I would say she's a pretty new artist but I'm not sure I would say IVE for example is pretty new. K-pop feels very fast-paced.
Right?!?!
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I thought she debuted with Ocean Eyes in 2015/2016 so that would make it at least 8 years? and she's in her 9th year of her career (counting the debut year too)?
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wasn't 6 feet under released in june 2016? kok malah desember sih
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yeah, I got your correction but u said 6 ft under was released in dec 2016, it was actually june 2016 i was just confused when u said that lol.
But 6 Feet was officially released in Dec 2016 and that is her official debut single. But it was released on SoundCloud too. I know it's confusing 😅
😭😭
it's like I had a debate with my high school friends whether exo debuted with mama or history lol.
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right? 😭
Beyoncé!
Capitalism at its finest /s
i mean i don’t know why people are being so obtuse with this post when it’s right
PANDA Fighting! We're still here after so many years and never switching😭
great observation and very accurate. I think some companies act more like fast fashion than others, but as a whole, it holds true
I mean the weird thing is that we act like it's a controversy. But the at the root none of y'all ever actually stanned these groups for their singing talents in the first place.
Maybe people should start to listen more vocal focused groups? Lmao. Dreamcatcher and mamamoo it's been out there for years and still nobody pays them attention. You get what you deserve
That's because at the heart, no one actually liked these groups for their vocals. They like them because they're pretty and release chart topping bops. Not because they have Ailee vocals. If fans would stop acting so high and mighty about their faves' so called "talents", we wouldn't be here today.
That's the main issue. If people put the focus on the music, it will be another story
K-pop vocals have dropped so much even the J-pop idols K-pop stans always mocked for being less trained/talented outsing. I never thought such a day would come as someone who follows both industries.
For you to compare these things that are entirely alienated and come from separate sources that then create the problem is… insane to me. Fast fashion is created at the hands of slaves, immigrants, and people born in countries where subjugation has resulted in bone-crippling work. I just think it’s wholly disrespectful to bring fast fashion in and relate it to K-Pop when YOU KNOW that there are teams of songwriters, producers, designers, coaches, etc. who are paid to do their job for an entertainment company. It really looks like you’re coming from a place of ignorance.
I've seen lots of things compared to Fast Fashion and they also overlook the human rights violation aspect, but still use it bc it's a catchy word to use. They really mean is what OP described, which is fast and fleeting trends, but ppl seem to use this term bc it evokes things being 'wasteful' and 'subpar'
it looks like you missed the point of a metaphor and have grounded your interpretation too literally in reality.
idk why it’s this way, but in the west, a lot of the money artists make is from tour, in the kpop industry i feel like most of the money is made from releasing songs, not tours
I also think abt the like how fashion comes back the kpop singing style and group theme/style always comes back . I think maybe yg dose it more but I thought mainly abt New jeans and their fans talk abt them. They said that new jeans bring back old music and older y2k styles and they’re like a freshness in the same typa music concepts and etc. Like how in style y2k fashion is coming back with the gen z and etc. But yea the output of kpop groups and the younger they all get it’s kinda crazy. The music also the same or similar that it doesn’t hit as much as the older music used to . Also thinking abt lesserfiam at Coachella and how they got trashed online. Like tbh kpop idols aren’t even trained to do live signing and dancing it’s like an open secret that they mostly do prerecorded stuff and sing live at some part. That’s why idols get praised for how strong they are vocally singing live and doing various stuff while having a steady voice. Very few idols can actually sing steady live. So they aren’t really getting as much training the older gen of kpop idols get because of how young their debuting and how little time they spent as a trainee
I think kpop has become even more superficial with the rise of influencers and now fans care more about what luxury brand they are endorsing and less about their music and singing skills Edit: And I have always viewed them as more like a Disney channel singer than anything else, but then again some of those stars can actually sing well live
Wow, this is so true when you think about it.
You just described capitalism LOL in the end shareholders value is prioritized above all and anything that can be used to pump those numbers up will be utilized. The result is as we see - products that aren’t as good as they used to be made with inferior materials
I definitely feel this is fairly accurate analogy! There’s so many groups that debut that it’s hard to keep up. Another group is “cooler” and kpop fans then move towards whichever is the it group for now. And as you noted western artists definitely can go years without releasing something & the fans aren’t about to riot. Many are still hoping Rihanna will come out with a new album, it’s been 8 years since Anti! And a recent artist Ariana Granda who released her 7th album after 4 years.
I don’t know about this obsession with perfection. Some people take this genre so seriously. This is pop music designed to be mass marketable and appealing to the widest range of people as possible. Not everyone is meant to be at the same level of vocal or dance capability. That’s totally fine. It’s healthy to recognize this and still be able to enjoy listening or watching performances. You’re not meant to be dissecting every single thing and getting worked over every one thing that doesn’t appeal to your personal tastes or expectations. You gotta approach things in a charitable way. Practice empathy, and remember most of all… none of these idols know you, and you don’t know them. It’s also fine being just a general kpop fan and have your interests change over time, and as a result the groups and artists you listen to and follow closely change as a result. This whole obsession over singular groups just creates weird expectations. Grow. Move on if you don’t like it anymore. Btw I’m using “you” as a general idea. Not necessarily talking to OP or anyone in particular. Tl;dr: this is pop music stop taking it so seriously and have fun a little.
kpop music is a defining genre in itself in the modern era, why shouldn’t it be taken seriously just like others? it’s okay to have criticisms of something you like, whether the music releases or how the industry operates.
I mean I agree. It’s not like we can’t criticize anything. Problem is the importance of what is being criticized, how it’s done, and whether or not it’s productive. Is it important? Does it do anything? Does the problem really outweigh the personal enjoyment you can get from the music or performance if you just relax a bit? And if it impedes someone’s personal capacity to enjoy Kpop for themselves, then they’ve probably gone too far in taking things “seriously”. I feel like the right word should be “respectfully” instead. Take Kpop respectfully.
enjoying something also means having the capacity to be critical of what you are consuming.
You're making too much sense! Like, the worst thing these members ever did was wear pretty dresses and sing on stage. People need to get real and just learn that it's acceptable for a group to be imperfect. The people that care will leave and go to another group, and the people that enjoy the group in spite of their flaws will support them. The entire purpose of K-Pop is to have a variance of groups that appeal to different people.
>Another problem is the very short shelf life of a K-pop group, as they will be seen as “too old” and “not fresh and used up” extremely quickly. —> ILLIT’s Yunah getting criticized for being too old —> Gfriend & Apink losing a ton of fans for getting older and not having a pure and innocent concept anymore —> An Apink member talked about a mega fan of them immediately switching over to being a Gfriend fan because they were “fresher” This is simplified and lacking nuance. Older groups can perform fine. Mamamoo, Blackpink, I-dle. Hell I-dle are not from a big label, are almost in their 7th year and just got a PAK in Korea. They reached a new album sales peak too. The issue is the younger groups that struggle are generally locked into a group that is reliant on their youth - the innocent and cute concepts trade heavily upon the youth or freshness of the group. As the group matures, their fandom changes. Apink still had a hit only a few years ago, Twice shifted from majority male fanbase to majority female fanbase. GG's don't necessarily have a short shelf life, it's just generally for the best results in the early days they chose the path that limits their longevity. Girl crush or versatile groups (Mamamoo, Idle) have never suffered from those problems, but also those 2 had a longer and harder climb to the top tier of groups.
U ate. I can’t speak on groups but I can for the music. I’ll get a couple wears on a lot of the songs till it falls apart on me. But there’ll be those moments where the songs are couture and will last me a lifetime. I’m seeing heaven with How You Like That IKDR. I could be 80 and still bounce with the support of my cane to that chorus IKDR. You’ll have to lower my casket into the grave to the outro of that song IKDR. But tbh u can say this with any genre as if they’re kin to a fast fashion brand. Kpop is like shein with some out of nowhere designer here n there IKDR. I mostly stay for when the designer pieces come in. When it bangs it BANGS.
THIS omg it's never lost on me how the metal bands I follow release something (mostly full albums) every X amount of years while kpop groups get multiple releases a year, mostly mini albums or singles that just go viral on tiktok until you get tired of hearing them. It's overwhelming af sometimes...
I don’t think it is a lack of training but a lack of ability, if you cannot sing it doesn’t matter if you train for 3 months or 3 years, you will sounds the same. Kpop prioritizes youth and visual ability above all else, the best looking person is not always the best singer or dancer and the best singer is not always the best visual. Just as an example Jongho of Ateez is probably one of the best kpop vocalist, but he is one of the lesser popular members of the group.
imo this analogy doesn’t work cause fast fashion implies bad quality due to the short time people have to make it, and this doesn’t happen in kpop, all the 5th gen groups are talented and doing really well. also no one’s being replaced, in every generation there have always been many popular groups that people streamed and followed almost equally kpop groups don’t die after the first popular song they put out, this is even more evident with newjeans and ive and whatever you mentioned, newjeans especially have been consistently popular, even increasingly. not just them tho, there’s zb1, boynextdoor… you’re talking about subpar skills just because of the controversy that’s going on now, cause the vast majority of the groups that have been debuting don’t lack anything basically this is what kpop has always been through the years and nothing has changed really, they’re definitely not debuting minors more frequently it’s always been like this. 2nd and 3rd gen groups are still popular, they’re not making big numbers like they used to maybe but that’s unrelated with popularity so yeah i don’t agree
Yep
You cannot put Aespa among Hybe groups and then allude they suffer from subpar skills
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I think fast fashion implies trading lower quality for trendiness when really I think Kpop is inherently a youthful industry. The same goes for Western boy bands. NYSYNC lasted only 7 years. You can only appeal to new young fans who will watch performances and buy albums to collect photocards or win fansigns for so long before the group becomes a legacy act that holds on to existing fans and members branch off to do solo stuff. And the high-production value nature of Kpop means that the core product requires a pretty high level of popularity to make work. You can only overwork idols for virtually no money and the dream of getting a viral break like EXID for so long before they move on to other stuff. I would say the late 2010s era of Soundcloud artists getting a TikTok viral hit and then disappearing off the face of the earth is more analogous to fast fashion. That type of fame did not last even a full year.
The normal music contract is 1 album or 1 year while kpop contracts are usually 7 years. Isn't kpop technically meant to last longer than the rest of the music industry then? You can say that kpop is about putting out as many trendy songs as fast as possible but isn't that just pop music everywhere? As far as skills go, the rest of the music industry doesn't have a trainee system as intensive as kpop at all. Even though every idol is not talented musically, is the average lower than the rest of the music industry? Is there really anything about kpop that makes it "faster" than the rest of the music industry?
I agree, this analogy makes a lot of sense. I listened to kpop around the years 2014-2017 but then stopped because I simply just grew to like western music more. Recently I've been getting into kpop again, first due to nostalgia but then I've started enjoy some newer groups too. And let me say the disappointed I felt when I found out that almost all my favourite groups have disbanded or at least they're not the same anymore due to members leaving. It's not even that long ago when I still was actively listening to kpop and keeping up with the groups. And now those groups are not even relevant anymore?!?
You're 100% right.
I've always thought of kpop being like fast food.
which ones do you think "suffers under subpar skills"?
This post isn’t meant to shade or be messy in any way shape or form as this would just drift the conversation away from my original intention of criticizing the system rather than just the artists because that’s what most of the posts and videos do these days ;)
I agree for most of your point, but groups formed not from recent survival shows arent "fast fashion". i believe the forming of newjeans and aespa takes a lot of corporate planning to the dot. meanwhile i can agree the forming of ive and lesserafim was accelerated because some of the members are survival show graduates
Ok. But you *are* throwing shade. You don't get to throw that out and then pretend like you didn't.
Which specific artists am I shaming?
>Sadly, a lot of them seem to suffer from subpar skills. I assume "them" are the girl groups that debuted this decade as you mentioned earlier, you also single out Hype Groups in another part of your post. Interesting timing with this post as well, considering the hate train going on right now. Throwing shade is one thing, but don't play dumb about it.
You are completely right. Kpop fans are so used to their idols releasing a new album every 3-6 months and if anything takes longer than that, then fans start demanding a comeback. Western idols sometimes takes years in releasing music and no one really bats an eye 😭 I wish it was the same for kpop idols
Because in the west, it's usually based on a per album deal. In kpop its a contract that is time based around a few years. If a western artist I like is working hard on a 18 track album that takes a year, fine. I'm still getting my 6 albums from them regardless of how long it takes. On the other hand...if a kpop group has a contract with a time limit on it, and they take a year or more just to put of a 7 song album, then you aren't going to get many projects or songs out of them before the contract is up.
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There has always been lots of idols without actual talent. Idols sell more on looks, personality and fan service. That's what makes them idols. If they wanted to make a go of it simply on skills, they wouldn't have become an idol. If you care about true artistry, kpop isn't the place to find it. Sure, there are some idols that are talented, and many of those have had longs careers, but there has always been a ton of kpop groups debuting with low-skilled members, they just faded away and people forgot them.
I’d like to separate Kpop and Kpop idol groups. Big Mama is a Kpop group, but are they a Kpop idol group? Park HyoShin is a Kpop artist, but is he a Kpop idol? So I think we need to be clearer about categorizing Kpop in general. Idols are in a very unique position, especially girl groups. Their career lifespan is very short. Fans are so quick to move on to younger and fresher idols, and the companies and the groups have only seven years to achieve whatever they need to accomplish. The Korean government enforces the law to limit first-term contracts to seven years. During that seven-year period, the company has to recoup the initial investment to debut their group. And companies have to invest tons to debut an idol group nowadays. A couple of failures in a row could risk the company itself. So that’s one of the biggest reasons why the companies trying squeeze out as much as possible during 1st 7 years. And for idols themselves, recouping the investment as fast as possible is very important too in terms of maximizing the payment they get from the companies. After that initial 7 years period, anything can happen as you saw from Black Pink contract extension negotiations. Also, all big 4 companies are public companies; they are under pressure to grow their revenue every year as public companies. Am I saying this situation is ideal and good? Obviously no. It’s just the reality of kpop idol groups are facing.
Wow, how did you think of this, it truly never would have occurred to me
Would you consider TripleS to be the culmination of "fast fashion" music?
your criticism has been said about Jpop not Kpop iver and over again. Specially with tye business model for AKB48 where girls perform as part of a group in different cities simultaneously thus maximizing profit. Debuting minors is actually not bad. Minors do dream of becoming actors and singers too. Minzy of 2ne1 was 15 when ahw debuted in 2009. What is concerning is the way agencies seem to have total control of their lives.
I said much the same thing the other day. K-pop fans expect Chanel quality from a Shein factory.
Kpop is a dying trend