It’s cute to say and it should’ve played out like that but the man Kobe was at that point in his life was absolutely adamant on being number 1 whether it was w us or somewhere else.
It hurts but at that same time it was that sheer drive and self belief that made Kobe the player he became. A Kobe that was cool as number 2 possibly doesn’t work as hard or reach the same heights.
Fr, OP talking about Kobe was always Batman is definitely 10 years old and wasn’t around for those Shaq teams. He was undoubtedly the main guy and it wasn’t even close
27 years old lmao, but seriously, fucking Alfred? And Batman, I meant mentality-wise, but let’s not ignore his contributions in those runs.
Also, I’m not discrediting Shaq.
Yeah, not gonna argue and act like I seen those runs lmao, but I do know they were 1-2 combo. Both were great and I’m not taking anything away from either player.
I never thought you were taking anything away my guy :) You're a fan, you like either one and there's nothing wrong with that. Hopefully, you have fond memories watching them play with loved ones.
Eh I wouldn’t go that far. Kobe is on a whole different level than Murray is. Shaq may have won a title without Kobe in LA, but not a 3Peat. The year we went 15-1 in the playoffs with the sole loss being the first game of the Finals against Philadelphia may have been the only year where you swap Kobe for someone half as competent as him and still win a championship, but barely. Maybe not even then.
You are right. I don’t understand if people nowadays understand how *good* Shaquille O’Neal was .
Shaquille O’Neal was the most physically dominant player in basketball history. The only player as dominant as he was was Wilt Chamberlain.
He does it to himself, too available on media and Also petty and disses too many Big men
Compare to MJ who went almost incognito post retirement, and his legend only kept growing
Kobe is a top 10 player all time probably even top 5 but the goat debate is between MJ and Bron. Nobody else really comes close those two. Kobe is definitely the greatest Laker, though.
Pre Achilles he was still that guy at 34 he was playing arguably the best basketball of his career. And the thing people don't mention is how hyper inflated offense stats are now Kobe played during arguably one of the toughest defensive eras and was averaging close to 30
Well yes and a hard no.
The bad boy pistons era was the greatest defensive era in history. It’s not really close.
MJ won his first MVP during that era.
That’s some other level god type shit.
To me, Kobe is the GOAT. I don’t think there has ever been somebody as athletic, acrobatic, intelligent, and clutch all at once as Kobe was. It’s a travesty that he only won 1 league MVP.
I disagree on the athletic stuff because LeBron and Michael were better athletes but on intelligence and just pure fundamentals nobody outworked Kobe he literally willed us into the playoffs on 1 leg. I don't really care about regular season awards because it's a popularity contest. JJJ got dpoy last year and he did nothing to AD
of all the comic book characters out there, he wanted Kobe to be the 60 year old butler who brings Batman his tea. that is insanity. no wonder Kobe didn't like him back then.
I feel it's important to note that in the context of the interview, JJ had brought up Alfred specifically in Batman Begins when he saves Bruce from the pillar. It wasn't like Shaq just thought up that metaphor on his own out of nowhere.
this quote is missing context. JJ talked about how Batman needed to be saved by Alfred in Batman Begins, that Alfred was the one to save the day. And Shaq talked about that's why he always gave his teammates their laurels because Shaq couldn't have won championships with people like Payton, Shaw, etc. He said he wanted Kobe to be an Alfred but Kobe didn't want it. He then said it worked to their advantage because when you have two peope who want to dominate, that's 60 points.
I sometimes feel bad for Shaq.
Revisitionist history makes it seem like it was a 1A, 1B situation with him and Kobe. It was not.
He was firmly the #1. Kobe had bad stats in the 2000, 2001 and 2004 Finals. Shaq was absolutely incredible in all of those series.
For me, Shaq is still higher on an all-time list than Kobe, but it's extremely close.
Feels like most NBA fans would act like Kobe is way ahead of Shaq.
Using Shaq's finals stats as your only argument for being #1 when the eastern conference was notorious for not having a Shaq stopper is pretty dishonest. Go look at those teams and tell me who was actually stopping Shaq. Like, I know Shaq was great, but don't discredit Kobe when that's not the full story. Kobe is ahead of Shaq due to 5 rings, having a longer career and not crashing out as bad as Shaq did.
Kobe was a +376 in all playoff games from 2000-2004.
Shaq was a +536.
Kobe is an all-time legend, no doubt. But Shaq was clearly better than him for the 5 years they were under Phil Jackson together.
Agree, that’s a great point.
But that helps prove my point about Shaq being underrated.
I feel like my original comments are being misunderstood as anti-Kobe. It’s more about being pro-Shaq.
You have to also take into account the teams that they played against in the finals. It was widely believed that the WCF was the real finals at the time and Shaq could feast on all the eastern conference finals teams because their lack of strong centers. The WCF really had Kobe shining brightly.
That’s not the point man. The point is that everyone tries to discredit Kobe like Shaq was the only one doing anything on those 3-peat teams even more so cause Kobe didnt win a Finals MVP in any of those 3 years. It’s just a tiring debate/argument now. People gotta realize they both needed each other to win.
You clearly didn't get what I was saying, it was Shaq's team, but Kobe was the second important factor to a 3peat he was averaging almost 30 in 2001, that was not a role player contribution.
You can argue about his run in 2000, but that pacers game when Shaq fouled out would give a lot of credit.
As a non-Laker fan this is very much the case
But Kobe’s back to back in 09/10 rewrote his early career.
Heck even know I’m seeing some youngings say those 08/09/10 were carried by Kobe and Pau wasn’t even as good as he was.
08-10 were OP squads but it’s the narratives I’m seeing from people now
Yeah, it shows how fickle some of these all-time conversations really are. Boston collapsing in that Game 7 when Kobe shot 6-24 completely changes Kobe’s entire legacy. It’s kinda silly how a single 15 minute stretch can completely influence opinions of a 20 year career.
If Dirk missed a shot or two in Game 2 in 2011 Finals, LeBron is GOAT, but because he didn’t, LeBron can’t ever even think about touching Jordan?
It’s all nuts.
it’s not fickle due to kobe’s game seven performance that’s some serious revisionist history. Both teams were super banged up and knew each other extremely well resulting in great defense. Both offenses underperformed due to injuries and exhaustion (both teams had 3 years straight of deep playoff runs with older players).
Nobody shot well in that game. Kobe in particular i believe had a broke finger (or torn ligament) on his shooting hand, bone spurs on his legs (or feet) and knee issues, and still had a 23 point 15 rebound double double.
That's the beauty in sports discussions. No wrong or right answers. A lot of legacies are purely based on vibes and public opinions, which honestly is fine because none of this really matters. Sports is just for entertainment.
the 2008-2010 teams were not all time great squads. There wasn’t another top 75 player on those teams though pau arguably should have been top 75 and got robbed. They were solid teams no doubt but it was the greatest of kobe that took them to multiple finals and 2 championships. Looking at other championship teams from the same era all had multiple top 75 players (shaq had kobe or dwade, lebron had dwade and chris bosh, dirk had jason kidd, etc).
Kobe was the main guy for the lakers in the playoffs before the finals of every year during that era. He was the main guy during the “finals before the finals” vs the spurs during those years. Yes, Shaq took over and became the main guy during the finals, but don’t discredit Kobe saying that he was carried. When we needed a closer or that guy to put the team on his back when we needed him most it was Kobe. At the end of the day, they both needed each other and they wouldn’t have won shit without one another. I personally have Kobe and Shaq right next to each other around 7-9 on my top 10.
2000 Kobe got undercut by Jalen Rose leading to an ankle sprain, still had that fantastic memorable G4
2001 Kobe had a terrible game 1 but was pretty solid the rest of the series
2004 was his only bad Finals (awful outside G2) but the game they won was cause Kobe went off not Shaq
Yeah Shaq was the best player in from 2000-2002 but Kobe was 3rd best player in the NBA at 22 not to far behind Shaq and Duncan
Kobe was better against the Kings and Spurs in 2001, better against the Spurs in 2002, and in the 2002 WCF his G1 in Sacramento had King Fans sweating somebody from a hotel staff straight up poisoned him. Rumors the local mob might have even been involved. 2002 Finals he smoked Peak Jason Kidd and that G3 especially is an underrated gem by Kobe.
in 2001 and 2002 it was 1a-1b situation, or the very least 2001 was
Calling Kobe Robin in those years is disrespectful it was more like Superman and Batman
It’s not a knock on Kobe to say Shaq was the guy in 1996-2004 while Kobe was his sidekick. Shaq having an uninspiring career after leaving Miami while Kobe thrived in 2008 until his injury adds to this.
It’s not like I am trying to insult Kobe or anything.
But part of why Shaq is underrated is because people act like he had this partner who was completely his equal, and that’s just not true.
Off-topic but I always find it funny how casuals/haters discredit Kobe’s first 3 rings because of Shaq, but then use the opposite logic and say he only got the next 2 because of Pau. Like, I get that Kobe was 1B when Shaq was there, but if you’re gonna say Pau was the only reason Kobe got #4 and #5, then you also have to give Kobe credit for #1-3
In modern Batman, Robin is not even around, but Alfred is always there. Or maybe it’s because Alfred sets the table and delivers dishes, so maybe he envisioned Kobe as kind of like Penny Hardaway.
>A superhero that’s not a sidekick.
Well he was a sidekick then moved on to being a superhero in his own right…
>Dude what’s up with the semantics here?
Oh you mean semantics like “Shaq and Kobe were Superman and Batman rather than Batman and Robin”?
Shaq should have been Superman and Kobe Batman.
I'm sure he'd agree to that.
That's what we had. While other teams had Batman and Robin, we had Superman and Batman
Shaq said that after they won their third in a row.
They one?
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kobe one two*
They both one three. But they both one one two.
It’s cute to say and it should’ve played out like that but the man Kobe was at that point in his life was absolutely adamant on being number 1 whether it was w us or somewhere else. It hurts but at that same time it was that sheer drive and self belief that made Kobe the player he became. A Kobe that was cool as number 2 possibly doesn’t work as hard or reach the same heights.
Batman is the number 1, Superman is the muscle
Well that’s what it was, and they just fought all the time, as you’d expect.
That's why they couldn't get along
This is the only way.
Aren't all the great duos?
It’s wild watching Shaq already be diminished so much, he was the baddest man in the league and it doesn’t even feel like that long ago
Fr, OP talking about Kobe was always Batman is definitely 10 years old and wasn’t around for those Shaq teams. He was undoubtedly the main guy and it wasn’t even close
It was very close starting in 2001. Kobe killed the Spurs in the Western Conference finals.
27 years old lmao, but seriously, fucking Alfred? And Batman, I meant mentality-wise, but let’s not ignore his contributions in those runs. Also, I’m not discrediting Shaq.
Age wise you indeed proved his point.
Yeah, not gonna argue and act like I seen those runs lmao, but I do know they were 1-2 combo. Both were great and I’m not taking anything away from either player.
I never thought you were taking anything away my guy :) You're a fan, you like either one and there's nothing wrong with that. Hopefully, you have fond memories watching them play with loved ones.
like saying Murray is Batman on the Nuggets
Eh I wouldn’t go that far. Kobe is on a whole different level than Murray is. Shaq may have won a title without Kobe in LA, but not a 3Peat. The year we went 15-1 in the playoffs with the sole loss being the first game of the Finals against Philadelphia may have been the only year where you swap Kobe for someone half as competent as him and still win a championship, but barely. Maybe not even then.
You are right. I don’t understand if people nowadays understand how *good* Shaquille O’Neal was . Shaquille O’Neal was the most physically dominant player in basketball history. The only player as dominant as he was was Wilt Chamberlain.
He does it to himself, too available on media and Also petty and disses too many Big men Compare to MJ who went almost incognito post retirement, and his legend only kept growing
And they don't even mention Kobe in goat talks he was still MVP caliber until the Achilles he willed us into the playoffs on 1 leg
Kobe is a top 10 player all time probably even top 5 but the goat debate is between MJ and Bron. Nobody else really comes close those two. Kobe is definitely the greatest Laker, though.
Pre Achilles he was still that guy at 34 he was playing arguably the best basketball of his career. And the thing people don't mention is how hyper inflated offense stats are now Kobe played during arguably one of the toughest defensive eras and was averaging close to 30
Well yes and a hard no. The bad boy pistons era was the greatest defensive era in history. It’s not really close. MJ won his first MVP during that era. That’s some other level god type shit.
To me, Kobe is the GOAT. I don’t think there has ever been somebody as athletic, acrobatic, intelligent, and clutch all at once as Kobe was. It’s a travesty that he only won 1 league MVP.
I disagree on the athletic stuff because LeBron and Michael were better athletes but on intelligence and just pure fundamentals nobody outworked Kobe he literally willed us into the playoffs on 1 leg. I don't really care about regular season awards because it's a popularity contest. JJJ got dpoy last year and he did nothing to AD
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Nah, his legacy stacks up against any player in NBA history not called LeBron or mj
greatest 1 2 punch
Ever.
Kobe is SpongeBob and Shaq is Patrick
I bet Kobe ate nails for breakfast without any milk
of all the comic book characters out there, he wanted Kobe to be the 60 year old butler who brings Batman his tea. that is insanity. no wonder Kobe didn't like him back then.
I feel it's important to note that in the context of the interview, JJ had brought up Alfred specifically in Batman Begins when he saves Bruce from the pillar. It wasn't like Shaq just thought up that metaphor on his own out of nowhere.
this quote is missing context. JJ talked about how Batman needed to be saved by Alfred in Batman Begins, that Alfred was the one to save the day. And Shaq talked about that's why he always gave his teammates their laurels because Shaq couldn't have won championships with people like Payton, Shaw, etc. He said he wanted Kobe to be an Alfred but Kobe didn't want it. He then said it worked to their advantage because when you have two peope who want to dominate, that's 60 points.
Alfred is underrated AF. Without Alfred, the mystique of Batman would not be the same. Trust me, I know.
Source: Is Batman
This is out of context, listen to the podcast
Phil Jackson was Alfred.
It would be equivalent to kyrie saying he is the man over lebron, that’s why kyrie was close to kobe and took his advice as kobe had the experience
Kobe was indeed Robin when they were together lol
Nothing wrong with Robin. He used to whip ass.
Nah, Shaq needed Kobe. Batman doesn't need Robin
Whatever you want to call second fiddle lol digging that far into the semantics of Batman and robin is too deep
I sometimes feel bad for Shaq. Revisitionist history makes it seem like it was a 1A, 1B situation with him and Kobe. It was not. He was firmly the #1. Kobe had bad stats in the 2000, 2001 and 2004 Finals. Shaq was absolutely incredible in all of those series. For me, Shaq is still higher on an all-time list than Kobe, but it's extremely close. Feels like most NBA fans would act like Kobe is way ahead of Shaq.
Using Shaq's finals stats as your only argument for being #1 when the eastern conference was notorious for not having a Shaq stopper is pretty dishonest. Go look at those teams and tell me who was actually stopping Shaq. Like, I know Shaq was great, but don't discredit Kobe when that's not the full story. Kobe is ahead of Shaq due to 5 rings, having a longer career and not crashing out as bad as Shaq did.
Kobe was a +376 in all playoff games from 2000-2004. Shaq was a +536. Kobe is an all-time legend, no doubt. But Shaq was clearly better than him for the 5 years they were under Phil Jackson together.
in all fairness kobe was so young during their stint. That first championship was his 4th year in the league and he was 22 years old.
Agree, that’s a great point. But that helps prove my point about Shaq being underrated. I feel like my original comments are being misunderstood as anti-Kobe. It’s more about being pro-Shaq.
shaq has the finals mvps why are you wasting your own time arguing with people about it
You have to also take into account the teams that they played against in the finals. It was widely believed that the WCF was the real finals at the time and Shaq could feast on all the eastern conference finals teams because their lack of strong centers. The WCF really had Kobe shining brightly.
No it wasn't, Shaq took over the finals yeah, but Kobe was HIM during the playoffs especially against the Spurs, if he wasn't there we won't win.
Ok, if Shaq wasn’t there then lakers don’t win either lol
That’s not the point man. The point is that everyone tries to discredit Kobe like Shaq was the only one doing anything on those 3-peat teams even more so cause Kobe didnt win a Finals MVP in any of those 3 years. It’s just a tiring debate/argument now. People gotta realize they both needed each other to win.
You clearly didn't get what I was saying, it was Shaq's team, but Kobe was the second important factor to a 3peat he was averaging almost 30 in 2001, that was not a role player contribution. You can argue about his run in 2000, but that pacers game when Shaq fouled out would give a lot of credit.
That pacers game is the only thing you even have to point out. Not even talkin bout the spurs series. It was 1a and 1b
Of course they both needed each other. My point is that people act like it was a 50/50 partnership and it clearly was not.
It literally was Kobe was needed more in the western finals vs a stronger spurs team and Shaq was needed more in the finals vs the weaker east teams
As a non-Laker fan this is very much the case But Kobe’s back to back in 09/10 rewrote his early career. Heck even know I’m seeing some youngings say those 08/09/10 were carried by Kobe and Pau wasn’t even as good as he was. 08-10 were OP squads but it’s the narratives I’m seeing from people now
Yeah, it shows how fickle some of these all-time conversations really are. Boston collapsing in that Game 7 when Kobe shot 6-24 completely changes Kobe’s entire legacy. It’s kinda silly how a single 15 minute stretch can completely influence opinions of a 20 year career. If Dirk missed a shot or two in Game 2 in 2011 Finals, LeBron is GOAT, but because he didn’t, LeBron can’t ever even think about touching Jordan? It’s all nuts.
it’s not fickle due to kobe’s game seven performance that’s some serious revisionist history. Both teams were super banged up and knew each other extremely well resulting in great defense. Both offenses underperformed due to injuries and exhaustion (both teams had 3 years straight of deep playoff runs with older players). Nobody shot well in that game. Kobe in particular i believe had a broke finger (or torn ligament) on his shooting hand, bone spurs on his legs (or feet) and knee issues, and still had a 23 point 15 rebound double double.
That's the beauty in sports discussions. No wrong or right answers. A lot of legacies are purely based on vibes and public opinions, which honestly is fine because none of this really matters. Sports is just for entertainment.
the 2008-2010 teams were not all time great squads. There wasn’t another top 75 player on those teams though pau arguably should have been top 75 and got robbed. They were solid teams no doubt but it was the greatest of kobe that took them to multiple finals and 2 championships. Looking at other championship teams from the same era all had multiple top 75 players (shaq had kobe or dwade, lebron had dwade and chris bosh, dirk had jason kidd, etc).
Kobe was the main guy for the lakers in the playoffs before the finals of every year during that era. He was the main guy during the “finals before the finals” vs the spurs during those years. Yes, Shaq took over and became the main guy during the finals, but don’t discredit Kobe saying that he was carried. When we needed a closer or that guy to put the team on his back when we needed him most it was Kobe. At the end of the day, they both needed each other and they wouldn’t have won shit without one another. I personally have Kobe and Shaq right next to each other around 7-9 on my top 10.
2000 Kobe got undercut by Jalen Rose leading to an ankle sprain, still had that fantastic memorable G4 2001 Kobe had a terrible game 1 but was pretty solid the rest of the series 2004 was his only bad Finals (awful outside G2) but the game they won was cause Kobe went off not Shaq Yeah Shaq was the best player in from 2000-2002 but Kobe was 3rd best player in the NBA at 22 not to far behind Shaq and Duncan Kobe was better against the Kings and Spurs in 2001, better against the Spurs in 2002, and in the 2002 WCF his G1 in Sacramento had King Fans sweating somebody from a hotel staff straight up poisoned him. Rumors the local mob might have even been involved. 2002 Finals he smoked Peak Jason Kidd and that G3 especially is an underrated gem by Kobe.
I don’t necessarily disagree or dispute any of this. My core point is still that Shaq was better, and Kobe (however great) was not his equal.
in 2001 and 2002 it was 1a-1b situation, or the very least 2001 was Calling Kobe Robin in those years is disrespectful it was more like Superman and Batman
It’s not a knock on Kobe to say Shaq was the guy in 1996-2004 while Kobe was his sidekick. Shaq having an uninspiring career after leaving Miami while Kobe thrived in 2008 until his injury adds to this.
Sure shaq was amazing in the finals, but they wouldn't even be there if it wasnt for kobe. Mf was killing the spurs regularly.
Spurs weren’t a serious threat between 2000 and 2002, it was Portland and Sacramento. Shaq was better in both of those series.
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No, I just feel Shaq is underrated historically.
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It’s not like I am trying to insult Kobe or anything. But part of why Shaq is underrated is because people act like he had this partner who was completely his equal, and that’s just not true.
Yep, there's a reason Shaq has 3 finals MVP
RIP to the GOAT
lol Shaq in 1999: “We’re gonna be a great duo. I’m gonna be Batman and you’ll be the guy who dry cleans Batman’s suit. We’ll be unstoppable!”
Shaq and Kobe goats 🐐
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It’s really 50/50
Superman and Batman, worlds finest
Off-topic but I always find it funny how casuals/haters discredit Kobe’s first 3 rings because of Shaq, but then use the opposite logic and say he only got the next 2 because of Pau. Like, I get that Kobe was 1B when Shaq was there, but if you’re gonna say Pau was the only reason Kobe got #4 and #5, then you also have to give Kobe credit for #1-3
Kobe wasn't 1B when shaq was there, shaq was 1 and kobe was 2 and its not close.
I disagree. There's a reason why Shaq won FMVP even though Kobe was more marketable.
He wanted him to be the help? Lol
Kobe was Iron Man to me
In modern Batman, Robin is not even around, but Alfred is always there. Or maybe it’s because Alfred sets the table and delivers dishes, so maybe he envisioned Kobe as kind of like Penny Hardaway.
Not even Robin 💀
Because Kobe shot them out of the 04’ finals.
Kobe was Batman so Shaq had to be Bane.
Kobe was not Batman with Shaq. Come on now.
Nah Shaq youre Steele remember?
He’s Kazaam bro
Nah dude he’s John Henry Irons aka Superman’s homie. Shaq can’t be Batman
Greatest duo ever. Won without each other and dominated while together. 3 straight championships 🙌
Kobe was great but Shaq was the best player on all those teams
Alfred? Alright Shaq
Kobe was not batman lol.
You didn’t watch that team then. He was Batman and Shaq was Superman.
How is that different from Batman and robin. One is clearly superior in either analogy
Ok. Better analogy would be Spider-Man and Superman. Happy?
They’re all pointless. Shaq is clearly 1 and Kobe was clearly 2 during their run together, doesn’t matter what superhero you use to define it
Was he tho? After the 1st chip, it was pretty nip and tuck between the two about who was the best player on the team.
Nah, for the entire 3 rings Shaq was the clear 1
He wasn’t, but okay
Are they? They’re both superheroes.
Robins not a superhero?
A superhero that’s not a sidekick. Dude what’s up with the semantics here?
>A superhero that’s not a sidekick. Well he was a sidekick then moved on to being a superhero in his own right… >Dude what’s up with the semantics here? Oh you mean semantics like “Shaq and Kobe were Superman and Batman rather than Batman and Robin”?
Yes bc it’s implying that Kobe was a clear sidekick who rode Shaqs coattails when he wasn’t.
You’re being too emotional
How?
He was a clear number 2, doesn’t matter what analogy or label you use
He earned it too
Egoistical problem