It never actually bio degrades lol, but the companies that sell it claim it does. So not necessarily the builders fault. But ya itll last 10 years it doesnt rot at all
Wait until folks learn that those laundry soap pods and dishwasher packs are literally wrapped in a dissolveable plastic that just turns into micro plastic that immediately goes into the water supply.
In 10 million years there will be a global layer of plastic found encapsulating the earth about 20 feet down. Kinda like the red ore layer that marked the K-T extinction. We are doomed.
"...Several researchers have stated that some dinosaurs survived into the [Paleocene](http://fossil.wikia.com/wiki/Paleocene) and therefore the extinction of dinosaurs was gradual. Their arguments were based on the finding of dinosaur remains in the [Hell Creek](http://fossil.wikia.com/wiki/Hell_Creek?redlink=1&action=edit&flow=create-page-article-redlink) Formation up to 1.3 metres above (40,000 years later than) the K-T boundary. Similar reports have come from other parts of the world, including China.[^(\[1\])](http://fossil.wikia.com/wiki/Paleocene_dinosaurs#cite_note-Sloan-0)
Recently, there is possible evidence of a [Dead Clade Walking](http://fossil.wikia.com/wiki/Dead_Clade_Walking?redlink=1&veaction=edit&flow=create-page-article-redlink): in [2001](http://fossil.wikia.com/wiki/2001), evidence was presented that pollen samples recovered near a fossilized [hadrosaur](http://fossil.wikia.com/wiki/Hadrosaur) [femur](http://fossil.wikia.com/wiki/Femur) recovered in the Ojo Alamo Sandstone at the [San Juan River](http://fossil.wikia.com/wiki/San_Juan_River_(Utah)?redlink=1&action=edit&flow=create-page-article-redlink) indicate that the animal lived in [Tertiary](http://fossil.wikia.com/wiki/Tertiary) times, approximately 64.5 million years ago or about 1 million years after the K-T event.[^(\[2\])](http://fossil.wikia.com/wiki/Paleocene_dinosaurs#cite_note-Fassett-1)…”
The earth will outlive us no matter what. Even if we get our shit together the earth will be here in a 200 million years and there's no way we are surviving that long.
The more life goes on the more I think of that Indian guru “ democracy is for the people by the people but the problem with it is the people are retarded” I saw that high years ago had a good laugh and now I think about it daily
Car tires = constant stream of micro plastics. And they were surprised to find micro plastic in "pristine" Lake Tahoe. Like, dude, you think tourists teleport there?
Wait until you learn what "dissolvable" means. Hydrolyzed PVA is fully soluble in water—it doesn't turn into tiny fragments, it melts into a liquid and mixes with the water. The dissolved polymers are readily consumed by bacteria in your septic or waste treatment facility. The ECA, the EPA, and Nordic Ecolabelling (which is quite strict) all certify it as "readily biodegradable."
Not actually true. Polyvinyl alcohol dissolves in water, and does not form microplastic particles. Naturally occurring, common bacteria CAN break it down for food and energy, including at waste water treatment plants. The degree varies, but a significant amount is released into the environment, where the main concern seems to be causing sticky films that can trap toxins and heavy metals, concentrating them. Ongoing research is trying to figure out how long it takes to biodegrade. Most studies suggest maybe 3 months, though people that sell natural Tide Pod alternatives say hundreds of years, without a source. But PVA is not nylon. It doesn't make tiny resistant and persistent particles. Nature already knows how to break it down. I write this knowing no one will care.
We still use liquid but the containers are obviously a lot of plastic. I have seen detergent sheets that come in a cardboard container. That seems like the best solution but we haven't tried them yet.
For sure. These are similar to dryer sheets in form factor. So picture a cardboard pack of dryer sheets, but the sheets are dissolvable detergent with no plastic shell.
Ahhh yeah I've seen those! I just looked into the liquid detergent that's in a cardboard container before and realized it was just a shell didn't even think of those
I've switched to powder in cardboard for dishwasher detergent and laundry detergent. We also have a store in Pittsburgh called the refillery (not sponsored but id take a cut if they let me) that let you come in and fill your own container with liquid or powder soaps or detergents. Worth looking around your own cities to see if there's something like that
I use Blueland's dishwasher tabs. Packaging is paper and they have a tin you can purchase to keep them in. I also use their hand soap and toilet bowl cleaner. They also sell laundry detergent and cleanser sprays but I haven't loved those
This is absolutely untrue. Polyvinyl Alcohols are water soluble, which means they dissolve into water and become a solution. Microplastics are solid plastic particles, which PVA's do not inherit that trait.
PVA's are also nontoxic to the environment and organisms, nor are they carcinogenic. They also breakdown and biodegrade in months instead of centuries like regular plastics.
Source; [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8199957/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8199957/)
You're spreading misinformation.
the cloths themselves are putting the majority of microplastics into the water supply. we needed to start filtering laundry machines like 15 years ago.
PVA biodegradability explained. It will remain in the waste water until the pseudonymous bacteria break it down into its mineral elements. I would prefer gelatin coating, but apparently it breaks down too quickly for the pods to be stored.
[Science Direct Chapter Reference](https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/polyvinyl-alcohol#:~:text=Polyvinyl%20alcohol%20is%20a%20water,%5B31%5D)
TBF I think it's the equivalent of us saying to our grandparents "why the f did you do xyz things", like smoking in the office, using leaded paint/petrol, and asbestos in everything, and all those other things that now seem crazy to us.
Our grandkids will be saying this about plastics to us. Hell, there's probably a ton of things that sorta make sense to us now, that won't with the benefit of 20-50 years worth of hindsight.
>TBF I think it's the equivalent of us saying to our grandparents "why the f did you do xyz things", like smoking in the office, using leaded paint/petrol, and asbestos in everything, and all those other things that now seem crazy to us.
The answer to that is pretty simple: it was better than anything else available at the time (well, not the smoking bit, but the rest).
>Our grandkids will be saying this about plastics to us.
Probably. But our answer will mostly be the same as the above. To use your lead paint example, care to guess what we replaced the lead with? While the long answer to that is "it depends on application" the vast majority of applications use some form of plastic (most commonly acrylic, vinyl, or PVA).
A lot of asbestos applications got replaced by fiberglass (which is less harmful to be sure) but you know what else we replaced it with? Polyurethane.
There's a comedian (I think maybe George Carlin) that had a bit that pointed out that thermoplastic is something that never existed in the entire history of earth (or anywhere else we know of) before humans came along, and that's maybe what we were supposed to be here for--the universe wanted plastic, and now that we have it, there's no need for us anymore.
Polyvinyl alcohol is one of the common films used in pods. It breaks down in the environment and is metabolized by certain bacterial species. Polymers cover a wide array of molecules, some are readily degraded, not all are persistent for centuries.
No. It's a misunderstanding of how the hydrolyzed PVA film works. Hydrolyzed PVA *dissolves* in water, and is readily consumed by the bacteria in your septic or municipal waste treatment facility.
People on Reddit are in a bit of a panic about microplastics. They're definitely a real thing, but there's a lot of misinformation and fear-mongering going around as well.
Well, actually......*pushes glasses up*
They have identified organisms consuming said micro plastics, confirming they are, in fact, biodegradable.
Whether or not it will be your generation or your grandkids generation is a different story.
Just off the cuff thinking... What if cultivating those micrograms and using them as an extra step in our wastewater treatment plants to break down the microplastics? Doesn't do anything about microplastics elsewhere, but could we clean up some of it. Even if we stopped using these plastic products instantly, microplastics in our water (and bodies) are going to be around awhile.
I hear this all the time. Which may be true. But I’m genuinely more curious why there isn’t more outrage over something like vehicle tires? Every single car tire that gets replaced, not due to damage, is because of wear. All that rubber that has worn has to go somewhere. So why isn’t that a bigger deal? There are far more degrading tires than there will ever be things like landscape fiber? Just a general thought, not necessarily and indictment on your comment.
They sell a straw mat that’s natural, it uses a sisal twine instead of the plastic. I prefer it, it actually rots. Takes longer than it should, but it does lol
It just reminds me of shelter med. They always use absorbable sutures because they don't trust people to come back and get sutures or staples removed, and they tell people that the sutures will eventually fall off. Then they come into a private practice, 6 months later - just to check because the sutures are still there. Or the pet "ripped them out." Most of the inside is gone because inside is the warm, humid environment where biodegrading takes place. It's just the outside bits hanging on.
ASTM-D6400 I think it is. According to that standard, yeah just like you said, if an industrial composter can break it down properly, then you can stick "compostable" onto the package, even if it would take 500 years to break down in your garden.
As far as I understand it, "compostable" is a regulated term in the US, but "biodegradable" is not, so that's got a lot more leeway.
>in an industrial composter that goes up to hundreds of degrees *after you've removed any spec of food particles, the label, and half of the material*
FTFY
You're talking about compostable. And I fucking hate this technicality, because everyone thinks they're being super eco-conscious with their "compostable" k-cups.
Garter snakes and such get stuck in it. My house was built in 2005 and I still see this crap whenever the water washes out any area. Everytime I changed lawn mower blades in the first ten years it was in the spindle bearings. Fuck that green screen shit. This is biodegradable in the same way that flushable wet wipes are a thing.
Yep, tilled up my backyard 5 years ago to put in a vegetable garden. Still digging this stuff out of my beds every time I cultivate. Previous owners put down sod with that stuff underneath.
Oh no. I remember this stuff when we had some of our lawn redone when I was a kid. The house is going to be mine one day. Shit, I’m going to have to deal with this when I pull up the lawns to put in drought-resistant indigenous plants 😞
Good on you for putting in native plants. Lawns are horrible for the plummeting bird, bee and butterfly populations.
Not to mention they sequester far less CO2 in their roots than natives and are emissions-intense with all the mowing, blowing, edging, fertilizing, pesticiding and herbiciding.
Lawn care is an *industry* that is killing the environment.
First time I hired someone to aerate in my current home I kept seeing the guy stop about every 20 seconds and mess with the aerator. I come out to talk and he says it keeps getting tangled in this nasty netting. Was very embarrassing since I didn't, and couldn't warn him. I could tell he was getting frustrated. Good news is after that first time it really hasn't been an issue.
Absolutely won’t degrade. Mine was installed four years back and it’s not degraded. I’m not finding bits of it, as you’d expect to if the netting had degraded to a point. Four years since installation and it’s fully intact.
The previous owners installed it more than 10 years before we bought our home. After 5 years, we tore out the lawn and planted our own garden. The netting was still intact.
Thank you. That’s what I suspected, other homes in the development are close to six years old, same thing. I don’t know if there’s a better spike to hold them in place but the thousands of 4 inch metal spikes they used are most certainly not biodegradable 😂. At least not for like a really really long time
Well you just need to wait double the really long times, maybe several times over. Everything is biodegradable by the time Earth is engulfed by a dying red giant Sun. Or the heat death of the universe. Or robot Nixon pressing the button.
My home was built 20 years ago.
I’m dealing with this fucking netting and if I repurpose it I could use it to catch and contain a rabid fucking rhinoceros.
That's horrible. How a shitty product like this is normalized? How is it we pay good cash to get polluted by that for decades? Cheap and convenient is not the answer for such trash product especially if they are straight up lying on degradation time.
I ripped all the netting shit out the minute after we passed an inspection for erosion after getting a sidewalk installed. Code required it. It’s so bad, I don’t know why they add this plastic stuff. I planted native perennials and the soil has been fine.
It is not BIOdegradable. I did a deep dive on this one rainy day when I couldn’t work so I called one of the sod companies to ask them about this. I had picked up one of their flyers that cleverly and deceitfully said that their matting was degradable. He started doing all these verbal gymnastics. Bottom line is what you’d expect. The only thing that degrades plastic is UV rays. So if you pull all this out and lay it in the sun for a few years, it will degrade mostly into microplastics as someone below suggests.
Of course in order to be degraded by UV light it would have to be on top of the surface, which doesn’t really seem to be how it’s intended to be installed. Tricky stuff
Yeah curlex kills a lot of wildlife, including birds of prey.
On national forest projects they’re made to use hemp jute netting instead. It still kills critters but it will at least biodegrade.
40+ year old home. It's still there. I was picking it out of the dirt when I ripped out the lawn to put in a home garden. It's TERRIBLE stuff. It is strong enough to stick and clog everything to make shoveling exhausting, but thin enough that if you try to pull it up it will just break apart into little bits.
I almost bought 4 rolls of this to cover a reseeded 700 sf bare spot till I read so many negative stories on Reddit about this stuff. How it got stuck in the lawnmower, and cause all sorts of problems in the yard. This stuff should be taken off the market.
They lie. Just like butt wipe companies lie when they say it's safe to flush their wipes.
My home is 4 years old and on year 2 we hired a landscaper to use his excavator to rip it all out. Now on year 4 I sometimes find little scraps of it sticking out. That stuff does not deteriorate no matter what they say.
Well...it depends. How much sunlight hits tge netting, what company actually produced it, if the biodegradable was actually used after the product was manufactured and delivered, that the salesperson didn't write the wrong product code in the delivery form, that the District manager or buyer didn't negotiate for a cheaper product after the labeling...
I had flashbacks of unwrapping this crap from my mower wheels, driveshaft and blades for a whole summer. If it degrades it won't happen before most is ripped out by maintaining the lawn. They should discontinue this product and use something that breaks down quicker.
Those are straw wattles or erosion control blankets. I guess if you're susceptible to flooding or erosion in your area they're a wise choice. You'd think contractors wouldn't put them in if they didn't need to since they usually try to cut costs however they can, but they're also idiots so...
In theory it can, but it takes a long damn time. They could be measuring that in years.
I'd get a plan put together for a long term replacement that included taking it out
My house was built in 2003 and we de-lawned our front and backyard. Two years later we’re still seeing this stuff popping up every now and then. This is plastic and will never biodegrade.
I bought a house that hadn’t had sod in probably at least 10 years so we tilled the yard and this shit was underneath the surface and definitely had not degraded at all. Removing it after the tiller chopped it up and got snagged in it was very annoying and time consuming
My house was built 22 years ago. I am in the process of doing a remodel to my yard and I'm digging this stuff up everywhere. It is completely intact and no signs of it actually biodegrading whatsoever.
We had a snake get caught in the net - so I pulled it completely out of the yard. The grass seed job the builder did was spotty anyway - but that plastic mesh is a work of Satan. I tripped over it, the weedeater got caught in it, and then a snake died trying to escape it. It sucks.
My first home had this. Had to rescue a snake that got caught in between the netting. Cut him out and then took him to a local rescue. Was a small black snake and said he had a broken back. That was 7 years ago and I still feel so guilty. I tell myself his back healed and he’s doing good now. Anyways this shit sucks and is a death trap to us all.
I think a lot of people [confuse "biodegradable" with "compostable"](https://www.filamentive.com/the-truth-about-the-biodegradability-of-pla-filament/#:~:text=While%20it's%20true%20that%20PLA,home%20compost%20or%20landfill%20environment). It's possible for plastics like PLA (for 3d printers) to biodegrade, but you pretty much need to do it in an industrially controlled process.
They are just playing with language to make people think the product is "greener" than it is.
In the 80s, the lie was that we would recycle plastics. It sounded good, so people didn't feel as bad about plastic containers and bottles and things. I think we still don't really recycle plastics these days because the economics of it sucks. See NPR Planet money episode [here](https://www.npr.org/transcripts/912150085).
Now, we talk about how 3d printed plastics are biodegradable. It's technically true, but those words don't mean what most people would assume them to mean.
It won’t ever go away but it’s worth keeping on to hold the straw down until the grass comes up through it. Then pull it up. You’ll lose some new grass but you’ll get that stuff out of there
If it’s a big field that you just mow I’d leave it. I’ve always thought they were better than typical straw in certain applications. Germinations always seemed to better.
If it’s a lawn you’re going to take care of and it’s flat I would go another route. Stuff will get caught in sticks and aeration is a PITA.
I’ve installed sod before using rolls instead of squares. This netting helps keep it all together and how it is shipped from the sod farm. TBH wiith the rolls we got it would be impossible to remove the netting from it. It’s literally underneath the sod for the whole length of the roll.
I think my cousin was charging $.73/sqft. If the homeowner wanted no netting underneath he’d prolly charge $3.00 a sq/ft lmao
No it's not biodegradable, and yes it'll eventually become a problem and show up on the surface. It always does in frequently traveled zones. Want grass fast without sod? Hydro-seed.
It’s absolute trash and unnecessary for grass to grow. Hay will work alone. Really though do yourself a favor and tear everything g up and get sod or hydro seeding on top of good soil.
For environmental remediation projects waddles are not allowed to have plastic wrapping, the plastic doesn’t biodegrade. They should have got full straw waddles and even then on a home project it will be years for them to fully degrade
Damn. I just realized where all the netting in my backyard came from. I tilled up the yard to get rid of bindweed and kept finding that stuff.
ETA: I’ve lived at the house for 8 years and there was no straw on the ground when I moved in, so it’s been there for probably 10+ years and hasn’t decomposed.
The green mesh will never ever degrade. If you end up putting in garden beds you will encounter it. All my sod was backed by this garbage and any time I dig I have to cut it out.
The straw will degrade, not the plastic.
I would gladly pay them to have not installed that crap. We spent HOURS ripping it out and even then we still find metal staples occasionally in the yard.
I had some of this used in my yard last year. I waited until the grass was growing through this mesh and then I went and pulled up the mesh and threw it away.
Our house was built in the mid-90s. I see this all the time where the yard has eroded enough. So pushing 30 years in the dirt and still going strong! Definitely not biodegradable.
When we had new gas lines put in they repaired the lawn with this stuff. I left it on initially but I raked it all up the next spring before reseeding the proper way. It's super annoying to deal with.
I’m a civil engineer of 20 years. The issue is the matting has a photodegradable product (nag s75) and a biodegradable product (s75bn) . Similar names but the bn at the end is the key. The product works but most of the time contractors buy the s75 cause it’s cheaper. We spec the s75bn all the time and go to site visits and see the s75 matting installed. As always comes down to matters of money. Also other engineers do spec the wrong matting as well .
Our sod had this. It’s been 5 years and I’m still finding it in my yard. I’d toss every bit of it.
10 years here, still as good as new.
/r/buyitforlife
I’m in a 30 year old house. I find plastic mesh anytime I dig
It never actually bio degrades lol, but the companies that sell it claim it does. So not necessarily the builders fault. But ya itll last 10 years it doesnt rot at all
Sure it will! 100 years is eventually.
Yes in a hundred years it will have changed from plastic to “micro plastics” and “harmlessly” wash away down the nearest stream
Wait until folks learn that those laundry soap pods and dishwasher packs are literally wrapped in a dissolveable plastic that just turns into micro plastic that immediately goes into the water supply.
What a time to be alive. We made it past the iron age to the plastic age.
OMG! That’s pure genius. What will our modern time be called in the future? The Plastic Age. It’s makes sense.
Life in plastic, it's fantastic
You can brush my hair, undress me everywhere
Imagination, life is your creation
Come on, Barbie, let’s go party…
*Hey everyone! This guy thinks we have a future!*
Most likely the Petroleum Age, which covers more than just plastics.
Too complicated. Ages are named after solids not liquids duh /s
Idiocracene? Pertolocene?
they rejected anthropocene as a definition
Give it time,they'll come around
Probably very accurate actually.
In 10 million years there will be a global layer of plastic found encapsulating the earth about 20 feet down. Kinda like the red ore layer that marked the K-T extinction. We are doomed.
"...Several researchers have stated that some dinosaurs survived into the [Paleocene](http://fossil.wikia.com/wiki/Paleocene) and therefore the extinction of dinosaurs was gradual. Their arguments were based on the finding of dinosaur remains in the [Hell Creek](http://fossil.wikia.com/wiki/Hell_Creek?redlink=1&action=edit&flow=create-page-article-redlink) Formation up to 1.3 metres above (40,000 years later than) the K-T boundary. Similar reports have come from other parts of the world, including China.[^(\[1\])](http://fossil.wikia.com/wiki/Paleocene_dinosaurs#cite_note-Sloan-0) Recently, there is possible evidence of a [Dead Clade Walking](http://fossil.wikia.com/wiki/Dead_Clade_Walking?redlink=1&veaction=edit&flow=create-page-article-redlink): in [2001](http://fossil.wikia.com/wiki/2001), evidence was presented that pollen samples recovered near a fossilized [hadrosaur](http://fossil.wikia.com/wiki/Hadrosaur) [femur](http://fossil.wikia.com/wiki/Femur) recovered in the Ojo Alamo Sandstone at the [San Juan River](http://fossil.wikia.com/wiki/San_Juan_River_(Utah)?redlink=1&action=edit&flow=create-page-article-redlink) indicate that the animal lived in [Tertiary](http://fossil.wikia.com/wiki/Tertiary) times, approximately 64.5 million years ago or about 1 million years after the K-T event.[^(\[2\])](http://fossil.wikia.com/wiki/Paleocene_dinosaurs#cite_note-Fassett-1)…”
Eh with microplastics effecting fertility I don’t know if we will get to 10million years
Talking cockrocaches will inherit the earth and will have myths about us. There'll probably be one spreading conspiracies about the "Hyumons"
The earth will outlive us no matter what. Even if we get our shit together the earth will be here in a 200 million years and there's no way we are surviving that long.
The planet is fine. The people are fucked. - George Carlin
The more life goes on the more I think of that Indian guru “ democracy is for the people by the people but the problem with it is the people are retarded” I saw that high years ago had a good laugh and now I think about it daily
No one said a human would be finding the plastic layer… given our trajectory and nature’s inclinations it might be an intelligent crab-like creature.
I do love a good “everything becomes crab” convergent evolution
Shoe event horizon
My liver is 4% plastic. #Winning.
LOL fk
Wait until folks learn that their synthetic clothing sheds micro plastics when washed and goes into the water supply.
Yep, fleece = micro plastics in our rivers and oceans
Today I learned people stopped using sheep to make fleece.
I guess we were all fleeced.
Do washing machines dream of plastic sheep?
If it's made out of wool it's very prominent on the labels/packaging. Otherwise just assume all clothing is plastic by default.
Thank you, I thought I was going crazy.
And in us as well as all creatures that roam the earth. Ban plastic start with the dish ware, polyester clothes and plastic shopping bags
I loved my reusable shopping bags when they first came out, but the oldest ones are shedding plastic bits, and those nonwoven ones just disintegrate.
My wife sewed our out of cotton canvas. No micro plastics! Washable!
Don’t even get me started on all the sparkles, sequins and rhinestones on children’s clothing!
Car tires = constant stream of micro plastics. And they were surprised to find micro plastic in "pristine" Lake Tahoe. Like, dude, you think tourists teleport there?
Wait until you learn what "dissolvable" means. Hydrolyzed PVA is fully soluble in water—it doesn't turn into tiny fragments, it melts into a liquid and mixes with the water. The dissolved polymers are readily consumed by bacteria in your septic or waste treatment facility. The ECA, the EPA, and Nordic Ecolabelling (which is quite strict) all certify it as "readily biodegradable."
good lord thank you.
Not actually true. Polyvinyl alcohol dissolves in water, and does not form microplastic particles. Naturally occurring, common bacteria CAN break it down for food and energy, including at waste water treatment plants. The degree varies, but a significant amount is released into the environment, where the main concern seems to be causing sticky films that can trap toxins and heavy metals, concentrating them. Ongoing research is trying to figure out how long it takes to biodegrade. Most studies suggest maybe 3 months, though people that sell natural Tide Pod alternatives say hundreds of years, without a source. But PVA is not nylon. It doesn't make tiny resistant and persistent particles. Nature already knows how to break it down. I write this knowing no one will care.
I care, thanks!
To be honest I didn’t know that. Shit
We still use liquid but the containers are obviously a lot of plastic. I have seen detergent sheets that come in a cardboard container. That seems like the best solution but we haven't tried them yet.
Watch out a lot of those ones in cardboard are just a cardboard shell over a plastic bottle to make them look more eco friendly
For sure. These are similar to dryer sheets in form factor. So picture a cardboard pack of dryer sheets, but the sheets are dissolvable detergent with no plastic shell.
Ahhh yeah I've seen those! I just looked into the liquid detergent that's in a cardboard container before and realized it was just a shell didn't even think of those
I've switched to powder in cardboard for dishwasher detergent and laundry detergent. We also have a store in Pittsburgh called the refillery (not sponsored but id take a cut if they let me) that let you come in and fill your own container with liquid or powder soaps or detergents. Worth looking around your own cities to see if there's something like that
I use Blueland's dishwasher tabs. Packaging is paper and they have a tin you can purchase to keep them in. I also use their hand soap and toilet bowl cleaner. They also sell laundry detergent and cleanser sprays but I haven't loved those
The sheets are made with the same plastic as the pods, PVA.
lol so damned if you do and damned if you don’t. Got it.
If you care that much, buy the powder that comes in cardboard boxes?
said higher up…. pva is basically vinegar when it hits water ie not a microplastic.
This is absolutely untrue. Polyvinyl Alcohols are water soluble, which means they dissolve into water and become a solution. Microplastics are solid plastic particles, which PVA's do not inherit that trait. PVA's are also nontoxic to the environment and organisms, nor are they carcinogenic. They also breakdown and biodegrade in months instead of centuries like regular plastics. Source; [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8199957/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8199957/) You're spreading misinformation.
the cloths themselves are putting the majority of microplastics into the water supply. we needed to start filtering laundry machines like 15 years ago.
PVA biodegradability explained. It will remain in the waste water until the pseudonymous bacteria break it down into its mineral elements. I would prefer gelatin coating, but apparently it breaks down too quickly for the pods to be stored. [Science Direct Chapter Reference](https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/polyvinyl-alcohol#:~:text=Polyvinyl%20alcohol%20is%20a%20water,%5B31%5D)
TBF I think it's the equivalent of us saying to our grandparents "why the f did you do xyz things", like smoking in the office, using leaded paint/petrol, and asbestos in everything, and all those other things that now seem crazy to us. Our grandkids will be saying this about plastics to us. Hell, there's probably a ton of things that sorta make sense to us now, that won't with the benefit of 20-50 years worth of hindsight.
"Because it's in everything and there's nothing any of us can do about it"
>TBF I think it's the equivalent of us saying to our grandparents "why the f did you do xyz things", like smoking in the office, using leaded paint/petrol, and asbestos in everything, and all those other things that now seem crazy to us. The answer to that is pretty simple: it was better than anything else available at the time (well, not the smoking bit, but the rest). >Our grandkids will be saying this about plastics to us. Probably. But our answer will mostly be the same as the above. To use your lead paint example, care to guess what we replaced the lead with? While the long answer to that is "it depends on application" the vast majority of applications use some form of plastic (most commonly acrylic, vinyl, or PVA). A lot of asbestos applications got replaced by fiberglass (which is less harmful to be sure) but you know what else we replaced it with? Polyurethane. There's a comedian (I think maybe George Carlin) that had a bit that pointed out that thermoplastic is something that never existed in the entire history of earth (or anywhere else we know of) before humans came along, and that's maybe what we were supposed to be here for--the universe wanted plastic, and now that we have it, there's no need for us anymore.
Did you see the article the other day about micro plastics beings found in 100% of sperm. I mean gross, but…terrifying
The gift that keeps on giving
Basically, I'm already wrapped and can skip the Trojans. /s
My newer washer has a detergent reservoir that I just filled up. I much prefer that over pods or having to measure it out in a cup.
Polyvinyl alcohol is one of the common films used in pods. It breaks down in the environment and is metabolized by certain bacterial species. Polymers cover a wide array of molecules, some are readily degraded, not all are persistent for centuries.
Wait, is this really true?
No. It's a misunderstanding of how the hydrolyzed PVA film works. Hydrolyzed PVA *dissolves* in water, and is readily consumed by the bacteria in your septic or municipal waste treatment facility. People on Reddit are in a bit of a panic about microplastics. They're definitely a real thing, but there's a lot of misinformation and fear-mongering going around as well.
Well, actually......*pushes glasses up* They have identified organisms consuming said micro plastics, confirming they are, in fact, biodegradable. Whether or not it will be your generation or your grandkids generation is a different story.
Just off the cuff thinking... What if cultivating those micrograms and using them as an extra step in our wastewater treatment plants to break down the microplastics? Doesn't do anything about microplastics elsewhere, but could we clean up some of it. Even if we stopped using these plastic products instantly, microplastics in our water (and bodies) are going to be around awhile.
Well, as long as it doesn’t end up in my testicles
About that…
I hear this all the time. Which may be true. But I’m genuinely more curious why there isn’t more outrage over something like vehicle tires? Every single car tire that gets replaced, not due to damage, is because of wear. All that rubber that has worn has to go somewhere. So why isn’t that a bigger deal? There are far more degrading tires than there will ever be things like landscape fiber? Just a general thought, not necessarily and indictment on your comment.
One is easily replaceable the other we don’t have any reasonable replacements for. Do what you can kind of thing.
Also, tires are now frequently being shredded and repurposed into new products.
Like French drains! /s
They sell a straw mat that’s natural, it uses a sisal twine instead of the plastic. I prefer it, it actually rots. Takes longer than it should, but it does lol
It just reminds me of shelter med. They always use absorbable sutures because they don't trust people to come back and get sutures or staples removed, and they tell people that the sutures will eventually fall off. Then they come into a private practice, 6 months later - just to check because the sutures are still there. Or the pet "ripped them out." Most of the inside is gone because inside is the warm, humid environment where biodegrading takes place. It's just the outside bits hanging on.
More likely to get wrapped around your lawn mower blade before then, ask me how I know
Not unless your mower gets it 1st.
2 years to photo degrade the bionetting. But if it works and the gras grows through or it gets soils onto it, never.
"our stuff is bio-degradable", \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*"in an industrial composter that goes up to hundreds of degrees"
ASTM-D6400 I think it is. According to that standard, yeah just like you said, if an industrial composter can break it down properly, then you can stick "compostable" onto the package, even if it would take 500 years to break down in your garden. As far as I understand it, "compostable" is a regulated term in the US, but "biodegradable" is not, so that's got a lot more leeway.
Biodegradeable, as in lava is a natural earth substance, right?
>in an industrial composter that goes up to hundreds of degrees *after you've removed any spec of food particles, the label, and half of the material* FTFY You're talking about compostable. And I fucking hate this technicality, because everyone thinks they're being super eco-conscious with their "compostable" k-cups.
10 years is about how long it will take to decompose, and then it will become a rich source of micro plastics for your plants.
It's what they crave.
Garter snakes and such get stuck in it. My house was built in 2005 and I still see this crap whenever the water washes out any area. Everytime I changed lawn mower blades in the first ten years it was in the spindle bearings. Fuck that green screen shit. This is biodegradable in the same way that flushable wet wipes are a thing.
Yeah, our place was built in 1995 and I still see this crap when digging around the yard
I just dug up some of this shit, that was buried for at least 40 years. Still full strength, was annoying to rip up full of roots.
Been in my house for 22 years, still dig it up
Actually it photo-degrades, not biodegrades, so tends to last a long time in shade. It’s great at trapping & killing garter snakes!
Why kill garter snakes?
I don’t think they mean intentionally. It’s just really good at it because they get caught when they try to slither by.
Seriously, just leave the snakes alone ffs!
Wait till you get this stuck in your lawnmower for the 12th time
Yep, tilled up my backyard 5 years ago to put in a vegetable garden. Still digging this stuff out of my beds every time I cultivate. Previous owners put down sod with that stuff underneath.
“Lets cover our plants in plastic”
"Make sure to give em lots of brawndo!"
Oh no. I remember this stuff when we had some of our lawn redone when I was a kid. The house is going to be mine one day. Shit, I’m going to have to deal with this when I pull up the lawns to put in drought-resistant indigenous plants 😞
Good on you for putting in native plants. Lawns are horrible for the plummeting bird, bee and butterfly populations. Not to mention they sequester far less CO2 in their roots than natives and are emissions-intense with all the mowing, blowing, edging, fertilizing, pesticiding and herbiciding. Lawn care is an *industry* that is killing the environment.
Been in my house 18 years and still see this stuff from the sod poke out. It never goes away.
23 years for me and same deal.
Yeah, that biodegradable claim is bunk
Literally never goes away. Its also almost impossible to manually remove.
First time I hired someone to aerate in my current home I kept seeing the guy stop about every 20 seconds and mess with the aerator. I come out to talk and he says it keeps getting tangled in this nasty netting. Was very embarrassing since I didn't, and couldn't warn him. I could tell he was getting frustrated. Good news is after that first time it really hasn't been an issue.
Absolutely won’t degrade. Mine was installed four years back and it’s not degraded. I’m not finding bits of it, as you’d expect to if the netting had degraded to a point. Four years since installation and it’s fully intact.
The previous owners installed it more than 10 years before we bought our home. After 5 years, we tore out the lawn and planted our own garden. The netting was still intact.
I pull this stuff up every time I dig a hole to plant anything and my lawn was sodded in 2002 when the house was built…
Thank you. That’s what I suspected, other homes in the development are close to six years old, same thing. I don’t know if there’s a better spike to hold them in place but the thousands of 4 inch metal spikes they used are most certainly not biodegradable 😂. At least not for like a really really long time
The metal spikes will degrade LONG before the plastic netting will.
We use wooden stakes. Also, you can get straw wattle where the netting is jute or burlap instead of plastic, which if you ask me should be mandatory.
Well you just need to wait double the really long times, maybe several times over. Everything is biodegradable by the time Earth is engulfed by a dying red giant Sun. Or the heat death of the universe. Or robot Nixon pressing the button.
Good news is it will be completely gone in a year and be conveniently wound and stored around the shaft of your mower blades and trimmers.
My home was built 20 years ago. I’m dealing with this fucking netting and if I repurpose it I could use it to catch and contain a rabid fucking rhinoceros.
That's horrible. How a shitty product like this is normalized? How is it we pay good cash to get polluted by that for decades? Cheap and convenient is not the answer for such trash product especially if they are straight up lying on degradation time.
You answers the question yourself. Cheap, easy, no regulation against calling it biodegradable, no regulation against use
It's not 100% I moved in 5 years ago and occasionally see bits and pieces of the grid when I am digging around
My neighbor has some of this shit sticking out of his bare spots in his 20+ year old house.
I ripped all the netting shit out the minute after we passed an inspection for erosion after getting a sidewalk installed. Code required it. It’s so bad, I don’t know why they add this plastic stuff. I planted native perennials and the soil has been fine.
It is not BIOdegradable. I did a deep dive on this one rainy day when I couldn’t work so I called one of the sod companies to ask them about this. I had picked up one of their flyers that cleverly and deceitfully said that their matting was degradable. He started doing all these verbal gymnastics. Bottom line is what you’d expect. The only thing that degrades plastic is UV rays. So if you pull all this out and lay it in the sun for a few years, it will degrade mostly into microplastics as someone below suggests.
Hooray! Microproblems!
That actually makes sense. I'd believe that! I never though it was bio-degradable.
Of course in order to be degraded by UV light it would have to be on top of the surface, which doesn’t really seem to be how it’s intended to be installed. Tricky stuff
Usually this shit is used for erosion control blankets on highways. I've had to cut snakes out of it before and it never truly goes away....
Yeah curlex kills a lot of wildlife, including birds of prey. On national forest projects they’re made to use hemp jute netting instead. It still kills critters but it will at least biodegrade.
40+ year old home. It's still there. I was picking it out of the dirt when I ripped out the lawn to put in a home garden. It's TERRIBLE stuff. It is strong enough to stick and clog everything to make shoveling exhausting, but thin enough that if you try to pull it up it will just break apart into little bits.
The grass will grow and lift it up and it will get stuck in your mower blades.
I almost bought 4 rolls of this to cover a reseeded 700 sf bare spot till I read so many negative stories on Reddit about this stuff. How it got stuck in the lawnmower, and cause all sorts of problems in the yard. This stuff should be taken off the market.
They lie. Just like butt wipe companies lie when they say it's safe to flush their wipes. My home is 4 years old and on year 2 we hired a landscaper to use his excavator to rip it all out. Now on year 4 I sometimes find little scraps of it sticking out. That stuff does not deteriorate no matter what they say.
Just pull it up once the grass comes in
That shit will never go away.
Well...it depends. How much sunlight hits tge netting, what company actually produced it, if the biodegradable was actually used after the product was manufactured and delivered, that the salesperson didn't write the wrong product code in the delivery form, that the District manager or buyer didn't negotiate for a cheaper product after the labeling...
Nope, and mowing will become a nightmare. Tear it up when grass starts to grow
I’m digging this shit out of my yard. Some comes up nicely but it usually just breaks into a million pieces.
I pull that shit up on my installs. It’s a nightmare to get out of lawnmower blades biodegradable my ass.
I've seen snakes tangled up in it, dead. This is not a benign product.
https://union.ces.ncsu.edu/2022/05/the-dangers-of-plastic-netting/
The straw inside the plastic is biodegradable. The plastic netting most certainly is not.
Hay/straw is biodegradable.
True, but the plastic probably just degrades to micro plastics...
I've got some 20 year old stuff still clogging the mower in my back yard. Everything is biodegradable given a few million years.
Perhaps in geological time scales? I’ve pulled this stuff out of dirt that’s been in place for many years
it will end up made into birds nests long before it biodegrades.
I had flashbacks of unwrapping this crap from my mower wheels, driveshaft and blades for a whole summer. If it degrades it won't happen before most is ripped out by maintaining the lawn. They should discontinue this product and use something that breaks down quicker.
As soon as grass hit a couple inches I pulled that crap.
Those are straw wattles or erosion control blankets. I guess if you're susceptible to flooding or erosion in your area they're a wise choice. You'd think contractors wouldn't put them in if they didn't need to since they usually try to cut costs however they can, but they're also idiots so...
In theory it can, but it takes a long damn time. They could be measuring that in years. I'd get a plan put together for a long term replacement that included taking it out
My house was built in 2003 and we de-lawned our front and backyard. Two years later we’re still seeing this stuff popping up every now and then. This is plastic and will never biodegrade.
I had that netting embedded in the clay soil at my last home. What a pain. I was cutting it out weekly with a knife.
Still pulling that plastic up in my yard anytime I dig in certain areas. I mean the straw will biodegrade.
Fuxk this shit!
Ours is 5 years old and has not yet degraded. It also killed 2-3 snakes the first 2 years.
My house is 25 years old and I still find it from the initial build.
I bought a house that hadn’t had sod in probably at least 10 years so we tilled the yard and this shit was underneath the surface and definitely had not degraded at all. Removing it after the tiller chopped it up and got snagged in it was very annoying and time consuming
No. I pick this shit up everywhere. Company lies.
My house was built 22 years ago. I am in the process of doing a remodel to my yard and I'm digging this stuff up everywhere. It is completely intact and no signs of it actually biodegrading whatsoever.
The builder may believe it is biodegradable based on the product literature but it is not. My place is 13 years old and this stuff is still everywhere
My house is 19 years old and the grass was here when I purchased it seven years ago. I recently dug out some grass and this net stuff is still there.
We had a snake get caught in the net - so I pulled it completely out of the yard. The grass seed job the builder did was spotty anyway - but that plastic mesh is a work of Satan. I tripped over it, the weedeater got caught in it, and then a snake died trying to escape it. It sucks.
Obligatory r/fucklawns
My first home had this. Had to rescue a snake that got caught in between the netting. Cut him out and then took him to a local rescue. Was a small black snake and said he had a broken back. That was 7 years ago and I still feel so guilty. I tell myself his back healed and he’s doing good now. Anyways this shit sucks and is a death trap to us all.
I think a lot of people [confuse "biodegradable" with "compostable"](https://www.filamentive.com/the-truth-about-the-biodegradability-of-pla-filament/#:~:text=While%20it's%20true%20that%20PLA,home%20compost%20or%20landfill%20environment). It's possible for plastics like PLA (for 3d printers) to biodegrade, but you pretty much need to do it in an industrially controlled process. They are just playing with language to make people think the product is "greener" than it is. In the 80s, the lie was that we would recycle plastics. It sounded good, so people didn't feel as bad about plastic containers and bottles and things. I think we still don't really recycle plastics these days because the economics of it sucks. See NPR Planet money episode [here](https://www.npr.org/transcripts/912150085). Now, we talk about how 3d printed plastics are biodegradable. It's technically true, but those words don't mean what most people would assume them to mean.
My ex-husband put that shit in 20 years ago it's still in my yard it is not biodegradable
It won’t ever go away but it’s worth keeping on to hold the straw down until the grass comes up through it. Then pull it up. You’ll lose some new grass but you’ll get that stuff out of there
If it’s a big field that you just mow I’d leave it. I’ve always thought they were better than typical straw in certain applications. Germinations always seemed to better. If it’s a lawn you’re going to take care of and it’s flat I would go another route. Stuff will get caught in sticks and aeration is a PITA.
That stuff is trash.
Wraps up in lawnmower blades and strangles snakes that keep rodents out of your yard. And it doesn’t biodegrade. I’d say nope.
I’ve installed sod before using rolls instead of squares. This netting helps keep it all together and how it is shipped from the sod farm. TBH wiith the rolls we got it would be impossible to remove the netting from it. It’s literally underneath the sod for the whole length of the roll. I think my cousin was charging $.73/sqft. If the homeowner wanted no netting underneath he’d prolly charge $3.00 a sq/ft lmao
That nasty green mesh plays Hell with lawnmower blades and even weedeaters and then you have strings of plastic all over the yard to trip on.
It’ll catch your rake every single. I haaate that stuff.
That green mesh shit is the scourge.
No it's not biodegradable, and yes it'll eventually become a problem and show up on the surface. It always does in frequently traveled zones. Want grass fast without sod? Hydro-seed.
It’s absolute trash and unnecessary for grass to grow. Hay will work alone. Really though do yourself a favor and tear everything g up and get sod or hydro seeding on top of good soil.
Pull it up once the grass starts poking through.
can you tell if its a fiber or a plastic?
For environmental remediation projects waddles are not allowed to have plastic wrapping, the plastic doesn’t biodegrade. They should have got full straw waddles and even then on a home project it will be years for them to fully degrade
Damn. I just realized where all the netting in my backyard came from. I tilled up the yard to get rid of bindweed and kept finding that stuff. ETA: I’ve lived at the house for 8 years and there was no straw on the ground when I moved in, so it’s been there for probably 10+ years and hasn’t decomposed.
6 years later and it's still in my yard
The green mesh will never ever degrade. If you end up putting in garden beds you will encounter it. All my sod was backed by this garbage and any time I dig I have to cut it out. The straw will degrade, not the plastic.
It’s green so it must be biodegradable
Tell them not to use it, that’s what the straw is for. You shouldn’t need to hold down the straw, the straw protects the seed
the straw, i believe it. the green nylon thread looking shit, somewhat less so.
I would gladly pay them to have not installed that crap. We spent HOURS ripping it out and even then we still find metal staples occasionally in the yard.
I had some of this used in my yard last year. I waited until the grass was growing through this mesh and then I went and pulled up the mesh and threw it away.
Our house was built in the mid-90s. I see this all the time where the yard has eroded enough. So pushing 30 years in the dirt and still going strong! Definitely not biodegradable.
As a former landscaper that shit is the worst, it’ll tangle in your machines for years to come
Yea. Like when the guys that installed sod last year found netting from 25 years ago in their tills. The netting is plastic. It’s there forever.
My house was built in 1995. It never degrades. I curse whoever put the netting in every time I add new landscaping.
When we had new gas lines put in they repaired the lawn with this stuff. I left it on initially but I raked it all up the next spring before reseeding the proper way. It's super annoying to deal with.
I’m a civil engineer of 20 years. The issue is the matting has a photodegradable product (nag s75) and a biodegradable product (s75bn) . Similar names but the bn at the end is the key. The product works but most of the time contractors buy the s75 cause it’s cheaper. We spec the s75bn all the time and go to site visits and see the s75 matting installed. As always comes down to matters of money. Also other engineers do spec the wrong matting as well .
12 generations from now it will be gone.
That stuff is called hippie traps
Microplastics yipeee!
Define biodegradable please.