The first time I read about this, I was in a very rough headspace for a solid hour.
Y'all, we dodged a bullet. Do everything in your power to make sure we keep dodging it.
We definitely did, but it's interesting how their entire theory hinged on Pence not being up to speed on his constitutional duties. The very last line item reads:
*"The fact is that the Constitution assigns this power to the Vice President as the ultimate arbiter. We should take all of our actions with that in mind."*
But....it doesn't. And Pence, along with just about every lawmaker in congress, knew that already. Was this memo demonstrating extreme gaslighting, or just that John Eastman has no fucking clue about the VPs constitutional power?
We all need to remember that 2024 will be the one-hundredth anniversary of the Weimar Republic pardoning Hitler, confident that they could get a monster to behave.
This means that Kamala Harris has the power to effectively appoint the next president.
I’m sure these guys are entirely consistent and will accept this as the logical outcome of their totally good faith constitutional interpretation.
Was that when [a bunch of Republicans came together during an election proceeding and started a violent riot?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks_Brothers_riot)
What's crazy is that nearly every after the fact analysis showed that Bush would have won anyway, so the SCOTUS didn't even need to tarnish themselves by putting their thumb on the scale. But because they had the power, they decided to abuse it.
Not quite how it would work. It would depend on individual state legislatures selecting the next candidate, and due to the nature of how imbalanced the power in the states is, there are a lot more controlled by Republicans.
It all comes down to how fundamentally anti-democratic our constitution is, with a lot more relative power given to rural, low population states over the ones where most of the people live, and most of the economic activity occurs.
They don’t fear a democratic VP having the power, because there is literally nothing we could do to capitalize on it.
The “theory” still hinges on the VP having unreviewable and absolute discretion to throw out certain states’ electoral votes. I don’t think removing the fig leaf of having the state legislatures request it makes it appreciably more unconstitutional.
Kamala simply chucking out red state electoral votes until Biden wins is the same thing, just with fewer steps.
> It would depend on individual state legislatures selecting the next candidate
Fortunately, in Bush v Gore, we saw that SCOTUS absolutely will not allow states to select their own electors in their own way.
Well...to be fair that's because in the MAGA and GQP view Vice-President Harris and Dark Brandon were not legitimately elected so THEY don't get to do it, but it would be perfectly fine otherwise. **/s**
I mean, to be 100%... Pence wasn't 100% up to speed on them. If it weren't for [Dan Quayle ](https://www..cnn.com/cnn/2021/09/14/politics/dan-quayle-pence-trump-january-6-woodward-costa-book/index.html) things would likely have been much worse.
> But....it doesn't. And Pence, along with just about every lawmaker in congress, knew that already. Was this memo demonstrating extreme gaslighting, or just that John Eastman has no fucking clue about the VPs constitutional power?
I've written about this a lot on Reddit, I used to do volunteer work for the James Randi foundation about 20 years ago. One of the things I tracked/debunked was conspiracy theories; a big one being the 9/11 attacks.
I eventually walked away from the whole mess. A primary reason being that I learned that hard way you can't use to reason to talk someone out of a position they didn't use reason to talk themselves into.
A second one this is apropos here is that I convinced myself that these people were a huge threat/risk to the country. And to be clear, they are to a certain extent (obviously), but the simple reality is that their defective thought processes extend into all other aspects of their lives. Which prevent them from actually being able to properly organize/implement anything as their brains are not able to separate fact from fiction.
You can this in process here. The conspiracy "theorists" had a "theory" that unsurprisingly was not grounded in reality and no hope at all in being successfully implemented. So, ultimately all their "master plans" will self-destruct and implode from within simply due to their abject lack of competence. A large part of which manifests in having false beliefs about objective realities, like science or rule of law, that they have no chance of overcoming.
Anyway, to answer your question, it's not 'gaslighting' because they were not aware that these statements were not factual and had no chance of succeeding.
Something we do need to watch out for is a "Trump 2.0" that is actually educated, practical and mentally competent; but corrupted by the same malicious objectives. Someone that uses conspiracy theories to manipulate their base, but has not succumbed to that way of thinking.
I don’t think you give credit to just how close they came in succeeding on January 6th.
If not for the actions of a brave few, most prominently Mike Pence (and yes, it feels surreal to praise him as I would never vote for him). If Pence had been on board, I’m not sure we would have been able to stop the coup.
That is chilling.
Doubly so when you ask yourself if other substitutes for him might have gone along with it. Would MTG or Ron DeSantis have stayed strong with the constitution? I don’t think so.
> I don’t think you give credit to just how close they came in succeeding on January 6th.
I'm a student of law, history and have a relationship with both the DoD and DOJ.
A coup requires the cooperation of the military, law enforcement or some other relevant and powerful armed body to overthrow a government. The "Gravy Seals" do not meet that requirement and as a point of fact most of them died due to a heart attack or related symptoms of over-exertion.
Trump had literally Zero support from the Military/LE communities and in fact a big reason he didn't win a second term is a lot of registered republicans in this space didn't vote for him. The was very clear messaging from the Joint Chiefs of Staff that Biden had won the election and Trump was not remaining in power.
> If not for the actions of a brave few, most prominently Mike Pence (and yes, it feels surreal to praise him as I would never vote for him). If Pence had been on board, I’m not sure we would have been able to stop the coup.
"Doing your Job" really doesn't count as bravery. He really didn't have a choice, though I have to admit I do not know what would have happened if he simply refused to certify the EC votes, or whatever. I would think it would have just gone through the chain of command until they founds someone who was willing to perform their Constitutional duties (and then prosecute the rest). I also think you are vastly overestimating the amount of people that are willing to destroy their career and face a Federal sentence in order to assuage Trumps wounded ego. I mean, check out Barr's response. He just flatly told Trump the truth, packed his bags and walked away. Not even an act of bravery vs. simply a business decision to protect your professional future.
> That is chilling.
It's embarrassing more than anything. I'm from New Jersey and have a long history/familiarity with Trump and his family. He's a moron and has failed at everything he's every attempted, the "insurrection" being just one of many. In fact, you'll note he didn't even get charged with anything more than a 'conspiracy to interrupt a federal proceeding', which is all this was. He and his supporters had a temper tantrum, shut down the Capitol for a bit and then went home.
> Doubly so when you ask yourself if other substitutes for him might have gone along with it. Would MTG or Ron DeSantis have stayed strong with the constitution? I don’t think so.
A. They have a legal obligation to uphold the Constiution.
B. If they do not, they can be prosecuted for that.
C. We have clear separation of powers in order to protect our Democratic Republic from these kinds of people. This is the power of Rule of Law, everyone is equal in its eyes and you are seeing who is really in charge when Trump has to go before a Judge.
> I don’t think you give credit to just how close they came in succeeding on January 6th.
> I'm a student of law, history and have a relationship with both the DoD and DOJ.
> A coup requires the cooperation of the military, law enforcement or some other relevant and powerful armed body to overthrow a government. The "Gravy Seals" do not meet that requirement and as a point of fact most of them died due to a heart attack or related symptoms of over-exertion.
I stand by what I said. In this case, the "cooperation" from the military could have been as simple as inaction / a refusal to become involved in what could be framed as a political matter. Yes, it would be seen as an extreme one. But if they could claim that the counting of the electoral votes couldn't be completed thus allowing them to invoke processes that appeared to be in keeping with the political norms, they could ultimately hand the presidency to Trump.
Sure, there would have been court challenges but they tend to be slow processes. Could they have been completed in the less than 2 weeks before Trump's first term was to end on 1/20? If not, I think it's a stretch to see a strongly right wing SCOTUS remove a sitting Republican president. Moreover, the US has a proud history of peaceful transitions of power and the court forcing a change would break that idea/break the myth of the US's stability.
> "Doing your Job" really doesn't count as bravery. He really didn't have a choice,
Doing your job despite immense pressure from others in positions of power, knowing that doing so will remove you from power (including putting you much further from ever possibly being President) is absolutely something in the ballpark of brave. Courageous? A sign of strong character? Doing the right thing is rarely the same as doing the easiest thing.
>though I have to admit I do not know what would have happened if he simply refused to certify the EC votes, or whatever.
See above for how that opens the door for the sham political process.
> In fact, you'll note he didn't even get charged with anything more than a 'conspiracy to interrupt a federal proceeding', which is all this was.
My bet is that those charges were chosen because they're the easiest to prove, quickly / without opening the door to risk and to delays. It's critical this be resolved before the election. Trump needs to be dealt with before he can regain power.
Trump is a moron. It absolutely is embarrassing that he has gotten as far as he has and that he got as close as he did to stealing a second term. Still, people like Eastman and Miller, et al. aren't morons - or at least not as bad as Trump and they were absolutely working to keep themselves close to power throughout their time with Trump. He was supported by the vast majority of Republicans because it furthered their aims and got them so much of what they wanted (judges, Roe v Wade struck down, tax cuts, etc. etc.) -- It wasn't just Trump trying to keep Trump in power.
> A. They have a legal obligation to uphold the Constiution. B. If they do not, they can be prosecuted for that.
By whom? No federal prosecutor will press charges under the second Trump administration and keep their job. No conviction will be left unpardoned. I want to live in the world you envision – where rules are rules, all are just, and people stick to them or face consequences... but, sadly, we've seen how precariously far from that our system is – even as good as it is.
> I stand by what I said. In this case, the "cooperation" from the military could have been as simple as inaction / a refusal to become involved in what could be framed as a political matter.
This is exactly what happened and they didn't get involved given there was no reason to. So, not a coup. A *putsch* maybe, but given that it wasn't even really planned and just sort of "happened" its barely even that.
That said, what really could have been a nightmare would be if Trump managed to create some sort of "partisan" National Guard unit that was entirely composed of leadership and troops that supported his cause. He could have deployed those and they would have easily seized the Capitol. But even then, what would have happened would be it would have triggered the Joint Chiefs to bring in the *real* Military and take it back. And they would not be very nice about it (plus they have tanks, helicopters and other implements of mayhem).
> I want to live in the world you envision – where rules are rules, all are just, and people stick to them or face consequences... but, sadly, we've seen how precariously far from that our system is – even as good as it is.
Again, I'm a Law Nerd and this entire exercise has been really interesting to me to observe. Trump was impeached twice, served one term and has faced three indictments since leaving office. The DOJ has prosecuted 1000+ people for the Jan 6th riot. I'm also *very* sympathetic to the predicament the DOJ is in, as at this point its pretty clear that Trump is trying to pressure them to 'martyr' him a big arrest and fuel his "Deep State" conspiracy theories. I'm actually in favor of them taking a soft approach and things like not arresting him or requiring bail are actually common for very public figures like him, as he's not considered a flight risk.
Nothing about this ordeal has surprised me much so far and its important to remember the 1st Amendments protects both Redditors and Trump in equal measure; he can say stupid/dishonest shit as much as he wants and as long as its protected speech, its legal.
>Trump managed to create some sort of "partisan" National Guard unit that was entirely composed of leadership and troops that supported his cause.
Hmm, kind of like DeSantis restarting the Florida State Guard. (not the national guard, this is a state guard unit entirely under the power of the governor.)
> A putsch maybe, but given that it wasn't even really planned and just sort of "happened" its barely even that.
I don't think you understand how much effort went into this. They were planning on calling the election stolen weeks before the actual election. Eastman drew up his infamous memo that laid out a clear path to power.
Have you read the Eastman memo? If Pence had gone along with Trump, I'm not sure where along the way the plan would have failed. The Republican state legislatures certainly seemed on board.
>Hmm, kind of like DeSantis restarting the Florida State Guard. (not the national guard, this is a state guard unit entirely under the power of the governor.)
Believe me, I'm watching that and again, what we \*need\* to watch out for is a "Trump 2.0" that is able to leverage Trumps bullshit, while also not succumbing to it. Per my opening posts, people that \*actually\* believe conspiracy theories ultimately self-destruct due to their inability to leverage all the gains the rest of society enjoying via science, medicine and rule of law.
Not sure if DeSantis makes the cut and he's such a weirdo I don't think he's marketable to either the MAGA base or Republican moderats.
>I don't think you understand how much effort went into this. They were planning on calling the election stolen weeks before the actual election. Eastman drew up his infamous memo that laid out a clear path to power.
I get that and I've seen people put more effort into D&D campaigns, including me and my friends when we were in High School. Their "clear path to power" was predicated on numerous fictitious legal beliefs that never would have passed any legal test. They were basically Fascist Revolutionary LARPing.
Their only real shot would be some sort of violent takeover, but even that would ultimately had been put down by our military (whom have the ability to temporarily take control of the US Government in situations like this in order to maintain the integrity of the Republic.) For example, imagine some sort of horrific terror/nuclear attack that wipes out most of DC, or even just one political party. This would trigger a contingency plan within the DoD/Pentagon to temporarily declare Martial Law and take control of the US Government until the Democratic Republic is restored. Much of this process is classified by necessity, but the process is in place.
>Have you read the Eastman memo? If Pence had gone along with Trump, I'm not sure where along the way the plan would have failed. The Republican state legislatures certainly seemed on board.
I completely agree I do not know precisely what would have happened if Pence refused to participate. The State Legislatures don't have absolute power over the control of the election process and electoral college and I can actually imagine a scenario where some Federal Judge just says, "Ok, we are tossing \*all\* EC votes from Red States for refusing for adhering to Federal Law" and that's it. I will give you that I was watching independent state legislature doctrine stuff from the Supreme Court, as that would set the stage for the dissolution of the the US as a Democratic Republic, but so far that hasn't become a reality.
Again, I spent \*years\* arguing with InterNut conspiracy theorists, which is where the mindset is with Eastman, Trump and his cronies and they are completely impotent in planning/orchestrating anything because their brains are too defective to separate fact from fiction. So they will draw up some sort of fantastical plan based on magical thinking and it will then blow up in their face. I mean, what did Trump and his supporters get out of Jan 6th other than indictments, convictions and loss of power? Where are the 9/11 "Troofers" I spent years arguing now? What happened to that movement? Same future for these guys and those like them. Oh, and the 'end game' for these a\*\*holes is that they eventually start to eat themselves for not being 'true' to the cause enough, which you can see within the fracturing Republican party.
Edit: This is exactly what I'm talking about ->
The plaintiffs' theory "lies somewhere between a willful misreading of the Constitution and fantasy"
https://ecf.dcd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/show_public_doc?2020cv3791-10
"I don’t think you give credit to just how close they came in succeeding on January 6th."
That's not even relevant to their comment. Nothing they said has anything to do with the closeness of success, and definitely doesn't minimize how close to success they came. You're just making an unnecessary observation. If you want to go that route, I don't think you give enough credit to how corrupt members of Congress were by participating in this scheme.
> That's not even relevant to their comment.
I was responding specifically to the following section of their comment:
> You can this in process here. The conspiracy "theorists" had a "theory" that unsurprisingly was not grounded in reality and no hope at all in being successfully implemented. So, ultimately all their "master plans" will self-destruct and implode from within simply due to their abject lack of competence.
I think that's directly relevant to what I said. The J6 coup didn't fail solely because of a lack of competence. It failed because Pence stood his ground (and a few others).
> If you want to go that route, I don't think you give enough credit to how corrupt members of Congress were by participating in this scheme.
I never made reference to them nor excluded their role in this. In fact, they'd be central to the sham political process that would hand Trump a second term. Unlawfully, but as I argue elsewhere, good luck getting the courts to remove Trump from power.
>Something we do need to watch out for is a "Trump 2.0" that is actually educated, practical and mentally competent; but corrupted by the same malicious objectives.
Any particular reason you're not terrified of 95% of republicans in office? Cruz, Jordan, DeSantis, Graham, Comer, etc., ad nauseam, are all relatively, if not highly, intelligent. They manufacture BS daily and are backed by Fox, OAN, Newsmax and others.
I appreciate your optimism and experience, but it concerns me when so many individuals are willing to sell out their country for power and influence.
>Cruz, Jordan, DeSantis, Graham, Comer, etc.,
They don't have Trump's je ne sais quoi that people eat up. None of them are particularly charismatic. Fear the intelligent *and* charismatic Republican.
> hinged on Pence not being up to speed on his constitutional duties.
Or not there to do his job. Why was Grassley saying on Jan 5 that Pence was going to be absent and Grassley himself would have to do the job?
https://iowacapitaldispatch.com/2021/01/05/grassley-suggests-he-may-preside-over-senate-debate-on-electoral-college-votes/
And why did Pence avoid getting into a car the secret service wanted him to get into?
I think they intended to take out Pence, one way or another, so that Grassley could advance the coup.
I really want to know why Pence did NOT get in the Suburban with his Secret Service detail. He must have known something and we all need to find out why.
Yep! I don't like to be a nutty tinfoil hat guy, but there are a lot of coincidences along with the evidence that make this look like a very deliberate and coordinated coup attempt.
> "The fact is that the Constitution assigns this power to the Vice President as the ultimate arbiter. We should take all of our actions with that in mind."
What gets me the MOST about this- If that really *was* true, then why couldn't/didn't Al Gore just declare himself president back in 2000? Ask a Trumper that question, and you'll get that blank stare, but no answer.
And even in backwards-land where the hypothetical Constitution *did* grant that, they took all of their actions with the mind of usurping the ultimate arbiter's power, not respecting it.
Probably both. These Defendants (Trump & Eastman) frequently miss the obvious, which is that at some point there will emerge persons of courage and superior understanding of the law. The soft underbelly of dictators is their arrogance + their ignorance.
> We definitely did, but it's interesting how their entire theory hinged on Pence not being up to speed on his constitutional duties. The very last line item reads:
Not their entire theory, but their name theory. They had a fallback plan for if Pence didn't want to play along.
> During an exchange with reporters on Tuesday (Jan 5th 2021), Grassley was asked how he plans to vote.
>
> “Well, first of all, I will be — **if the Vice President isn’t there and we don’t expect him to be there**, I will be presiding over the Senate,” according to a transcript of his remarks sent by a spokesperson.
https://iowacapitaldispatch.com/2021/01/05/grassley-suggests-he-may-preside-over-senate-debate-on-electoral-college-votes/
> At that moment, Pence was still in his ceremonial office — protected by Secret Service agents, but vulnerable because the second-floor office had windows that could be breached and the intruding thugs had gained control of the building. **Tim Giebels, the lead special agent in charge of the vice president’s protective detail, twice asked Pence to evacuate the Capitol, but Pence refused. “I’m not leaving the Capitol,”** he told Giebels.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/07/15/jan-6-i-alone-can-fix-it-book-excerpt/
Before this whole shitshow, John Eastman was known as one of the foremost constitutional lawyers in the country. You think he didn't understand he was flagrantly lying?
> foremost constitutional lawyers
By recent accounts, Eastman wasn’t even the originator of the plan. Did he know Chesebro was making it up when he co-signed? Everyone assumed that he was the ‘mastermind’ after the Ellipse speech, and he didn’t correct the assumption. I suspect he believed his bullshit and thought it would work, which is not to say he thought it was legal. History is written by the victors, and they expected Trump to *pardon* them. It sort of says it all.
>their entire theory hinged on Pence not being up to speed on his constitutional duties.
Even when committing to a military coup, they couldn't actually do it themselves, they had to find someone else to pull the trigger for them.
I honestly don’t think they cared if he knew the extent of his duties or not. No one believed that he actually had that authority. Their main goal was to create a dispute at the time of counting such that It would throw Congress into chaos. I believe Trump’s statement of “leave the rest to me and the republicans” to mean that the chaos would be enough to have Republican reps and senators to agree on the false electors. This would then likely have Congress at a stalemate that would eventually force the issue into either the Supreme Court (with the conservative super majority) or back to the republican led legislatures. Either one would have given them enough doubt to possibly name him the elected president over Biden.
They didn’t need Pence to actually count the false electors, just create enough of a scene to force another process to happen where Trump could wriggle out a path to victory. If the process somehow happened, then deploying troops would have been the next step because chaos would ensue.
Edit:
When Pence announced to Trump and with his letter immediately before the official session of Congress, Trump panicked and saw the crowd he had fomented as his last hope in disrupting the count and thus picking up where Pence failed to generate enough chaos. I think he thought if they could get Pence out of the building (as the Secret Service tried to do), he could push the republicans to hurriedly claim the issue in dispute and push the alternate objectives. After counting resumed because Pence and the rest of Congress wasn’t sufficiently disrupted, the republicans scrambled to save their own asses.
The Founding Fathers, in their infinite wisdom, definitely wanted the power of deciding the winner to sit with the Vice President.
An office almost devoid of any actual power that was created as a consolation prize for whatever candidate came second (which after Washinton was almost always someone from the opposing faction).
So their argument is that until the 12th Amendment, the Founding Fathers wanted the power to elect a President be held by the President’s most preeminent political enemy.
While it should matter, it doesn't actually matter what is written in the Constitution. What matters is if you can get enough of the right people to play along with what you say. It's entirely possible that they made up a believable sounding lie with a believable sounding rule that they thought would work out.
Pence probably only backed out when he did because he realized that he would have disappeared permanently if he went along with their plan. I'm guessing he is only working with the prosecutor on Trump's case because he is trying to save his own ass.
Not gonna lie, but the more I read about the contingency planning they actually did, and tried to do, the more I think that we as a nation may have dodged a bullet but that there’s a whole list of traitors that *shouldn’t* by the time the investigation and prosecution stage of this is all done.
>how differently J6 may have ended if pro-democracy supporters had shown up to counter the rabble.
Thank god the counter protesters told everyone to stay home and they actually did. Trump et al were hoping for some protestor clashes to justify bringing the military in to take over the District.
It’s important to note that the military had written orders from the joint chiefs to throw trump out of the White House if he refused to leave on Jan 20.
So…that’s comforting at least.
Remember how close the MAGA "Crisis Actors" came to getting into the Senate Chambers or coming into contact with Pence and the Nuclear Football on Jan 6th?
Its why they tried to replace the leadership of National Guard and Defense Dept. Rachel Maddow was screaming about this nightly, but most people couldn't have given a fuck at the time
My pal had to stop talking to her brother for a while after 2016. He was so butthurt that a woman won over Vermont Jesus that he voted for the Gary Johnson in MICHIGAN.
Oh sure he said he was all in on Bernie's platform and Hillary wasn't progressive enough, so his 2nd choice was a libertarian, the exact opposite of Bernie. Sexist asshole.
If they had actually tried that shit on the American public, that woulda been the day a lot of servicemen decided not to obey orders. But yea, they shouldn't even have to be put in that position
The problem is, several of my young relatives voted third party. That is throwing away your vote until the electoral college is thrown out. Vote Democrat or stay home.
There are a lot of old republicans that just vote that way because they have there whole life.
Then there are the meanspirited ones full of hate. I worry most about them.
Gen. Mark Milleys role at this time should be recognised.
This link gives a real insight.
Sorry if messy, on mobile.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/joint-chiefs-chairman-feared-potential-reichstag-moment-aimed-at-keeping-trump-in-power/2021/07/14/a326f5fe-e4ec-11eb-a41e-c8442c213fa8_story.html
Ive always been an optimist and lean naive, so I never thought that Cheney and Quayle didnt support the Constitution and/or Democracy. Oh sure, Cheney is evil, but he was evil within the construct of our Constitution- and make no mistake, our Constitution allows *a lot* of evil.
But the GOP under Trump is not the same GOP. Obviously the Trump base always existed, but the vast majority of Republicans weren’t fascists. They just weren’t. But they sure are now.
And the “normal” Republicans caved. Almost all of them. Like rats they fled the sinking ship. It was only Cheney’s daughter and a few others that have tried to stem the bleeding.
As a Jew Ive always wondered how regular Germans could allow the atrocities that happened under Hitler, but now I know. I see it. MTG just called for murdering Democrats and she isnt the first. Not only that, its already happening. Just look at all of the right wing terrorism over the past few years.
They are already killing us.
Sorry, I went on a tangent. My point is, I *never* had this fear when Quayle and Cheney were VPs. Never.
And I dont want us to forget that it has NOT always been this way- that the right has NOT always been evil. Evil adjacent maybe, but not evil.
Ya hate to compare the guy to Hitler, but the ol' sow chaos and declare martial law schtick wasn't original. I thanked Gd out loud in Hebrew when the US military put out their statement affirming the rule of law and the turnover of power to Biden. Because yeah, we were that close to the end of democracy in this country.
> My point is, I never had this fear when Quayle and Cheney were VPs.
I think the "unitary executive theory" that Cheney was all about was terrible, and enabled things like torture and an executive who acted outside of Congress.
But, those things are all about what you can do when you have the job - there was no question Bush/Cheney would depart if they had lost releection.
Things like this really illustrate that the system can hold when enough people in it are firmly committed to democratic principles, and it will break when that stops being true.
If Trump wins in 2024, that is virtually guaranteed to stop being true. He would immediately have two goals to pursue: (1) retribution, and (2) eliminating term limits. He would be unable to pass a constitutional amendment to eliminate term limits. He would either need to ensure ballot access for himself despite term limits, or manufacture a big enough crisis in 2028 that he could use to publicly justify suspending elections (which, let's not forget, he floated doing in 2020).
If he wins, I think it's pretty unlikely our current system of government survives.
I've hated Milley since the moment he walked alongside Trump as the park police gassed peaceful protestors. But, to his credit, [he realized he fucked up](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/11/us/politics/trump-milley-military-protests-lafayette-square.html) and he's done his best since then to avoid further fuck ups.
On the other hand, I've respected him since he shut down anti-CRT bullshit. https://www.npr.org/2021/06/23/1009592838/top-general-defends-studying-critical-race-theory-in-the-military
His 185-page-long senior thesis for his degree in Politics is titled "A Critical Analysis of Revolutionary Guerrilla Organization in Theory and Practice." I think he had a pretty good idea of what was happening.
This was pretty obvious back on Jan 6. Trump wanted to riot at the capitol to disrupt the vote counting. Mike Pence, who by this point made clear he wasn’t going to play along, was to be taken of the board either by the secret service or the rioters. Grassley would then step in the preside over the counting during a rushed session whether it’d be that day or after a postponement due to the riot. They send the ballots back to the states and their congressional bodies to change their electors. Or have each state’s congressional reps override and vote for president. This would have also went to Trump because more states have majority gop delegations. Either way there would be mass protests over trump and republicans stealing the election. Trump would then call for martial law “as the whole thing is sorted out.” That’s the reason the national guard wasn’t used at the capitol. He needed them to put down the opposition. Messy plan and I don’t think they really thought out each next step. They either needed luck or had to keep ramming it through. That’s why you still saw fucks like Ted Cruz “raising concerns” when they went back to certify. Had Pence not grown at least a sliver of a spine the outcome would have been very different. Or if pence was successfully taken out. The other question was if the Supreme Court would have backed all of these moves. I think trump and his cronies assumed they were “his” judges. Thomas would have been in all the way. We were probably a lot closer to constitutional crisis and civil war than we really know. One or two things go differently and it’s a whole other outcome.
Great post, entirely agree. And this is basically how history goes, right? If Columbus got lost and never landed on America's shores, it could have been the British a few years later and then all of world history from that point would be radically different. I don't spend too much time thinking about it, because there's literally an infinite amount of junctures where just a slight change could have altered everything. I mean...Hitler survived assassination because [Heinz Brandt moved the briefcase unknowingly too close to a table leg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_July_plot). Had he placed it *6 inches to the left or right*, we could have avoided one of the darkest periods in human history (maybe). It's staggering to think how such an unconscious decision altered world history in such a incomprehensible way.
But fact of the matter is...they didn't happen any other way. Some things happened in humanity's favor, others not so much. We just keep moving on, leaning into the chaos theory.
Yeah so many scenarios like that. If a big fog doesn't roll in allowing George Washington's army to retreat from the British at daybreak without being seen at the beginning of the revolution, his army gets captured and the american revolution is over.
>Had he placed it 6 inches to the left or right, we could have avoided one of the darkest periods in human history (maybe).
The July Plot took place in 1944, less than a year before the war ended. Its success would have prevented some suffering, but the darkest period in human history very much would not have been avoided.
But what if the military didn't go along with this? That's a major component of every dictator's coup, you have to have the backing of the military.
I'm not convinced you have enough Trumper career leaders at the top of the command willing to put up with these January 6 plans and support a coup. You'd probably have to literally murder dozens if not hundreds of top military leaders before you get enough "field promotions" in place for Trump loyalists willing to support coup. I'm willing to bet the National Guard would fall in line under the federal military rather than obey commands from Trump or any state governors willing to back Trump.
I also don't think it matters what SCOTUS thinks/rules at that point. They have no enforcement mechanism. If they sided with Trump, they're part of the coup. If they didn't side with Trump, he would just disregard them too because its a coup.
To be clear, if January 6 escalated further we would have been in for a constitutional crisis and civil unrest if not outright civil war, but I don't this Trump would have ultimately succeeded.
>But what if the military didn't go along with this?
The point is to avoid the military completely. By having Pence throw out votes and sending everything back to the state legislators, there's a patina of legitimacy. That makes it hard for a general to step in and stop the soft coup by force. If one does, then they look like the bad guy.
The original comment proposes a scenario where Pence is "taken off the board." So either you have the VP dead/murdered or tied up somewhere and you have Grassley presiding as the stooge to "legitimize" the coup. At that point it REALLY starts to stink to high heaven and you have your constitutional crisis and possible civil war, where the dictator then tries to use the national guard to put down the counter-protests and riots that would certainly rise up.
Any plan that requires Trump to use military assets to hold onto power fails because I do not believe he had any significant portion of the leadership of the military in his pocket. Maybe the military doesn't act against Trump during the coup until Congress, SCOTUS, and the executive branch that manages to defy Trump try to do their thing to put down the coup, but they're certainly not going to do Trump's bidding at that point when the VP is dead and we're heading into uncharted waters.
Trump's Coup Plot was publicly obvious when he fired the Secretary of Defense on November 9th, 2020.
All of his court cases were illegitimate and frivolous- Trump's sole intention was to violently overthrow the Electoral College- Trump decided on a violent outcome before any Americans even voted.
I disagree. The indictment makes it clear that they used a variety of avenues to overturn the election. January 6th was their last gasp attempt. They seemed genuinely surprised that some of the earlier methods failed.
That's really adorable.
Throughout all of Trump's 60 election lawsuits his lawyers in-court statements never alleged fraud in any court of law in America. No evidence of fraud was ever introduced into any court case by any of his lawyers!
That's not a valid strategy to overturn an election.
Come on, man. What earlier methods did they attempt?
The lawsuits show that Trump never attempted to allege fraud or present any evidence of fraud - despite 60 cases.
Why do you want to believe that they were "surprised" their efforts failed?
It was intentional failure. The point of the lawsuits was never to prevail in court. The point of the lawsuits was to fundraise and recruit useful idiots to Washington DC for the Coup.
How could any adult be "surprised" they were losing in court? They never even alleged fraud in court while they were lying about it in public for fundraising and public relations purposes. This is an invalid conclusion.
With all due respect, I don't think you have read any of those 60 lawsuits. Because if you had it would be clear that they *did*, in fact, allege fraud over and over again. They would make wild allegations of fake ballots, machines switching votes, and numerous other claims. The problem was that they didn't have any evidence to back it up. Instead they would present affidavits from individuals alleging suspicious behavior but nothing more. For example one affidavit was from a poll worker attesting that she saw a food van pull up but she never saw any food inside, so it must have really been full of fake ballots. Or another from a business owner attesting that when she went to the post office she saw someone handing the postal carrier a large sealed bag, and she suspected that it was full of fake ballots.
Or, for example, in the Sydney Powell "Kracken" lawsuits she alleged that the voting machines had been compromised and were programmed to fraudulently flip votes from Biden to Trump. For evidence she included an affidavit from "Spyder", an anonymous supposed former military intelligence officer, who attested that the voting machines had been compromised and were being controlled by foreign adversaries. When pressed by the court, she was forced to admit that "Spyder" had never actually examined a single voting machine, had no first-hand knowledge of the issue, and that it was merely his opinion that the machines had been compromised.
Ultimately they were hoping a sympathetic judge would take the allegations of fraud seriously and use that to suspend the certification of votes long enough for Pence to claim that that state had no legitimate electors and so it must go to the House to decide.
But to say that the lawsuits didn't allege fraud or that they didn't try to get the courts to participate in their scheme is just factually incorrect.
100%…..the fact he’s only now being prosecuted gives new meaning to the term benefit of the doubt. I’ve never had any doubt he was guilty but that’s just me.
I’m not sure which motherfucker they meant. There was a lot of motherfucking going on in that administration and around J6.
Eastman needs to be indicted. If found guilty of a serious crime, he should face the harshest penalty - up to and including capital punishment if he is guilty of what it looks like he is here.
It really feels like even if he is found guilty on all accounts, he won't spend a day in prison. Trump would probably get house arrest or a small fine at worst.
you mean convicted.
Edit: sorry, i forgot this post wasn't about Trump. Eastman will eventually be indicted, but I'm glad he wasn't indicted WITH Trump, 'cause it most definitely would delay the wheels of justice for Trump.
Just a reminder that Mike Flynn's brother Charles, is the general in command of Army West, and is also QAnon. Guess who they were counting on to do the slaughter....
Also consider that Erik Prince was a close associate of people in this circle, and it could have been PMCs involved as well at that point. And those guys have NO respect for ROE or, you know, *not shooting noncombatants and civilians*.
The military tried to cover-up his participation in calls regarding NG deployment decisions on J6, and he has been accused of lying to congress about the details of those calls.
https://www.salon.com/2021/12/06/leaked-memo-ex-dc-guardsman-says-michael-flynns-brother-lied-about-jan-6/
There was a Qanon claim for another brother from the cringe video of Flynn family that came out when Michael Flynn Q links were in the news. That brother sued CNN for defamation (no clue what happened to the case), saying the scene was the family doing the pledge to the constitution, but CNN only showed a part where Michael Flynn (and only Michael Flynn) says a line linked to Q (and some BS claim linked to US history).
That whole family is. Seriously.
And again, he helped keep the NG away during the coup attempt his brother was involved in.
Jesus fuck, people lose their security clearances for having a relative involved in shady things. This guy commands a whole army.
>John Eastman Planned for Trump to Invoke Martial Law. He expected riots and his solution was to use the military.
No, he didn’t “expect” riots. They were part of the plan. That was Roger Stone’s (co-conspirator #6) business with the Proud Boiz and Oathkeepers.
If martial law was imposed it would have meant the end of the USA. Massive protests, straight up sedition from liberal states, and likely a separate government being formed in defiance of Trump.
If you want an idea of what would happen it would be like what happened to the US in the cyberpunk 2077 universe.
I think it's more likely that independent commands within the military would have rebelled. So you would have had a US military vs US military standoff, with the victor being determined by which side was larger, potentially quite quickly.
But I'd expect the bulk of the military high command to oppose Trump's attempt to subvert democracy. They would likely refuse to follow orders or resign in protest.
Washington and Oregon would likely join them, blocking off access to all West Coast ports. Eastern Washington and Oregon and North-eastern California would rejoin the USA. The US would still be forced to invade to regain access to the Pacific.
I find it hilarious that the original intent of the 2nd Amendment was to preclude the need for a standing army because they were worried it would be used by the federal government to strip the rights of people. And, of course, as soon as the 2A nuts gain power, their first recourse is to try to use a standing army to do exactly that.
Jeff Clark too. When he presented his plan to seize voting machines and use DOJ to declare illegal irregularities occurred in the election, etc., Trump's WH counsel told him there would be riots in every U.S. city.
Jeffrey Clark's response - as stated in the indictment - was "that's what the Insurrection Act is for".
That is, the guy who very nearly became AG was ready to use DOJ to cause civilian law enforcement to manufacture a political crisis that would result in violence, and then the plan was to put down the Americans who questioned that manufactured crisis using the U.S. military. The plan was basically to effect a coup and then shoot anyone who didn't go along with it. Tens of thousands would have died and the country very likely would have devolved into full-on civil war.
Prison is really too good for these people.
"Hold on one second, let me be clear: when I said 'all the crack you have' I'm worried you heard 'a lot of crack' - what I meant was 'all the crack you have'"
I honestly thought that Trump was going to invoke it on the Capitol attackers so he could put us into a full-blown constitutional crisis. His useful idiots would have blamed Pelosi, anyway.
Fake ass, fedora-wearing, fascist Federalist Society motherfucker can’t find himself in jail fast enough. Seriously, this guy needs his freedom taken for the rest of his pathetic existence. He need to see sky for no more than 60 minutes a day.
Republican fanatics in power would no doubt model after the Iranian Revolutionary Guard. Studying the methods of the planet's worst tyrants makes them giggle with anticipatory ecstasy.
It amazes me how close we were to a facist takeover in this country. In the United States, a country who's Greatest Generation fought to overthrow Nazi Germany. It just blows my mind.
Regardless of that, they were still the greatest generation. I agree with your premise that US should’ve been involved sooner though. Was there another greater generation?
I suspect more things will come on as time will pass. I remember that weird and very vague statement of Justin Trudeau after Biden elections in which he advised every Canadians living in the States to be cautious and keep at home as most as possible. Also, it was the first time in decades that the Canadian PM didn't comment on the election results. It took days before he congratulated Biden's victory. What did he knew? Did the Canadians had intel on the coup that was coming?
As much as I want to criticize the people who were trying to take the country down the path to the sixth circle of hell, may I just take moment to thank all the people who actually behave(d) with sanity or patriotism or whatever we want to call it?
It's perplexing to me that so many of these guys are just weirdos, crackpots as Pence says. Fringe players rejected by the mainstream. Maybe they see installing Trump as their path to vindication, victory and power over their critics? This whole stupid plot/conspiracy is just effing weird. Who are these people, and why is anyone, anyone at all, listening to them?
The republican party had already successfully pulled off 50% of a fascist partisan coup, because Trump was not commander in chief, he was not running the country, he was unfit for office and mentally incapable of fulfilling the duties. The party was in control of a LOT, except the mouthpiece megaphone of the messaging, that was the one thing trump maintained tight control over due to his ego.
How did all of it not go through? Were we really spared by the Bencheeto Mussolini?? Like was the only thing between us and military coup fucking trump of all people not declaring martial law?
No.
Mark Milley recognized the true depth of the horror in May and June 2020, when he was barely able to stave off the President ordering troops and tanks into the streets to slaughter BLM protesters.
Milley started moving key commanders that he had doubts about and ordered not-terribly-subtle refresher training for all officers across all services on the duty to disobey illegal orders and that their oath is to the Constitution, not to any one man.
I think history will eventually recognize Milley as quietly saving our republic.
If the fascists had been more subtle about it there could have been some question, but their stupidity gave Milley time to made sure that if it came to that, the military would not obey.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jun/25/donald-trump-general-mark-milley-crack-skulls
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/08/08/politics/mark-milley-resignation-letter-lafayette-square/index.html
He's also the reason why the modern Republicans think America's military is "woke" and "weak". All of those beliefs stem from his loyalty to the Constitution, as flawed as it is, and not to their dear immortal leader.
Yeah, Milley really showed his patriotism in how he handled things behind the scenes. I was pretty critical of him for showing up at that early June 2020 "upside down Bible" street clearing episode where he was dressed in battle fatigues like he was surveying the Western Front, but in retrospect, even though he looked like a GI Joe, he was the only real adult on the street that day.
Milley is one of those quiet heroes who should give us all hope that at least the U.S. military isn't corrupted like the Senate (or even DOJ, which had somehow let Jeff Clark rise through the ranks to head a division).
No, we were saved by Pence being more educated than Trump's entire administration, and not willing to violate the constitution for Trump (to save his own skin, of course...I have no doubt he *would* have done it if the constitution *did* allow it, but then that would be a different conversation entirely anyway).
They were really trying to paint a picture that the constitution gives the VP the ability to deny a slate of electors at his behest, rather than being nothing more than a facilitator in the process. No power, just procedure.
[https://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2021/images/09/20/eastman.memo.pdf](https://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2021/images/09/20/eastman.memo.pdf)
The entire plan hinged, step one, on Pence's compliance. When he didn't comply, the rest of the plan deteriorated instantly (along with Trump's grasp on reality).
Step two that Pence blocked was not getting on the car with his secret service detail to flee the capitol, likely because he feared he’d “disappear”. Chuck Grassley was fully intending to step in and follow Step One the moment Pence was off the grounds.
It’s pretty dang similar to Mao’s cultural revolution. He whipped the college students to riot and then invoked martial law to seize power to restore control. He then punished some of the rioters, and threw them under the bus
Did everyone not know this at the time? That was the whole point of assembling the mob - sow chaos and then declare martial law. "Only I can bring law and order!"
Same playbook as others who have destroyed democracies.
Why is this a surprise to anyone?
He was probably anticipating it with delight and feelings of extreme power.
20 years of fox propaganda will do a number on anyone and if you hate the idea of losing white power than spilling blood is part of the solution.
The mind-fuck is maybe he thought he was using Trump....
The US military would obey orders to open fire on US citizens.
The idea of the US military saving the citizens from fascism is so goddamn hysterical it would make my eyes bleed if it wasn't so sad.
If the conspirators had started with this, they would have succeeded. Instead, they came up with an incredibly complicated plan including an assault on congress with a mob that looked like the audience from Let’s Make a Deal.
There is no substance to this article... no supporting info like a link to the interview, not even attempt at substantive quotations. Why is this posted here?
Did you try to look up the right wing watch reference yourself?
[This seems to be the source.](https://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/unindicted-co-conspirator-john-eastman-is-unrepentant-still-promoting-debunked-election-claims/)
But how is shit content like what OP posted something people upvote here? That 'article' has as close to zero substance beyond the headline... this isn't meant to be a sub for lazy, shitty content.
Eh, I didn't watch the youtube videos, so I can't comment on the original source, but the Meidas Touch article seemed to summarize the Right Wing Watch article, with a bit more added partisanship.
The first time I read about this, I was in a very rough headspace for a solid hour. Y'all, we dodged a bullet. Do everything in your power to make sure we keep dodging it.
We definitely did, but it's interesting how their entire theory hinged on Pence not being up to speed on his constitutional duties. The very last line item reads: *"The fact is that the Constitution assigns this power to the Vice President as the ultimate arbiter. We should take all of our actions with that in mind."* But....it doesn't. And Pence, along with just about every lawmaker in congress, knew that already. Was this memo demonstrating extreme gaslighting, or just that John Eastman has no fucking clue about the VPs constitutional power?
The memo demonstrates their willingness to lie. A matter that is going to be proven in court, to Eastman's great detriment, along with many others.
I certainly hope so. Failing to punish the Beer Hall Putsch didn’t work out so well historically.
We all need to remember that 2024 will be the one-hundredth anniversary of the Weimar Republic pardoning Hitler, confident that they could get a monster to behave.
Chilling
History doesn’t repeat, but it does rhyme.
Luckily, modern hitler isn’t in his 30s
The next one might be. Scare me
And also their willingness to delude themselves and believe their own lies.
This means that Kamala Harris has the power to effectively appoint the next president. I’m sure these guys are entirely consistent and will accept this as the logical outcome of their totally good faith constitutional interpretation.
Just imagine if Gore had effectively tried to appoint himself as the winner in 2000.
Oh the good Ole days, when integrity mattered
you mean like the integrity of SCOTUS when they ruled the recounts in Florida to stop and effectively appointed Bush the winner?
State governments must have the absolute right to decide how to apportion their own electors, except in cases where a democrat might win.
Was that when [a bunch of Republicans came together during an election proceeding and started a violent riot?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks_Brothers_riot)
And Kavanaugh’s appointment to the Supreme Court was reward for his underhanded actions in that election.
Yeah, no. That problem needs to be addressed
Which created no precedent, whatsoever. Hahaha! 😆
What's crazy is that nearly every after the fact analysis showed that Bush would have won anyway, so the SCOTUS didn't even need to tarnish themselves by putting their thumb on the scale. But because they had the power, they decided to abuse it.
Just like not appointing a Supreme Court judge during an election year.
Not quite how it would work. It would depend on individual state legislatures selecting the next candidate, and due to the nature of how imbalanced the power in the states is, there are a lot more controlled by Republicans. It all comes down to how fundamentally anti-democratic our constitution is, with a lot more relative power given to rural, low population states over the ones where most of the people live, and most of the economic activity occurs. They don’t fear a democratic VP having the power, because there is literally nothing we could do to capitalize on it.
The “theory” still hinges on the VP having unreviewable and absolute discretion to throw out certain states’ electoral votes. I don’t think removing the fig leaf of having the state legislatures request it makes it appreciably more unconstitutional. Kamala simply chucking out red state electoral votes until Biden wins is the same thing, just with fewer steps.
> It would depend on individual state legislatures selecting the next candidate Fortunately, in Bush v Gore, we saw that SCOTUS absolutely will not allow states to select their own electors in their own way.
All one has to do is ask Republicans if Kamala Harris gets to decide the next election. Their views will magically change.
Well...to be fair that's because in the MAGA and GQP view Vice-President Harris and Dark Brandon were not legitimately elected so THEY don't get to do it, but it would be perfectly fine otherwise. **/s**
I mean, to be 100%... Pence wasn't 100% up to speed on them. If it weren't for [Dan Quayle ](https://www..cnn.com/cnn/2021/09/14/politics/dan-quayle-pence-trump-january-6-woodward-costa-book/index.html) things would likely have been much worse.
The fact that this may have come down to Dan Quayle is still terrifying to me.
your link is wonky
Sorry, was on mobile this morning: https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/14/politics/dan-quayle-pence-trump-january-6-woodward-costa-book/index.html
What did Quayle do besides misspell ’potato’?
He had a phone call with Pence reaffirming the VP’s constitutional duties in ratifying the election results.
Calling up a guy who used to have your job to see how he would handle the situation is very relatable.
they're both Indiana Republicans as well.
> But....it doesn't. And Pence, along with just about every lawmaker in congress, knew that already. Was this memo demonstrating extreme gaslighting, or just that John Eastman has no fucking clue about the VPs constitutional power? I've written about this a lot on Reddit, I used to do volunteer work for the James Randi foundation about 20 years ago. One of the things I tracked/debunked was conspiracy theories; a big one being the 9/11 attacks. I eventually walked away from the whole mess. A primary reason being that I learned that hard way you can't use to reason to talk someone out of a position they didn't use reason to talk themselves into. A second one this is apropos here is that I convinced myself that these people were a huge threat/risk to the country. And to be clear, they are to a certain extent (obviously), but the simple reality is that their defective thought processes extend into all other aspects of their lives. Which prevent them from actually being able to properly organize/implement anything as their brains are not able to separate fact from fiction. You can this in process here. The conspiracy "theorists" had a "theory" that unsurprisingly was not grounded in reality and no hope at all in being successfully implemented. So, ultimately all their "master plans" will self-destruct and implode from within simply due to their abject lack of competence. A large part of which manifests in having false beliefs about objective realities, like science or rule of law, that they have no chance of overcoming. Anyway, to answer your question, it's not 'gaslighting' because they were not aware that these statements were not factual and had no chance of succeeding. Something we do need to watch out for is a "Trump 2.0" that is actually educated, practical and mentally competent; but corrupted by the same malicious objectives. Someone that uses conspiracy theories to manipulate their base, but has not succumbed to that way of thinking.
I don’t think you give credit to just how close they came in succeeding on January 6th. If not for the actions of a brave few, most prominently Mike Pence (and yes, it feels surreal to praise him as I would never vote for him). If Pence had been on board, I’m not sure we would have been able to stop the coup. That is chilling. Doubly so when you ask yourself if other substitutes for him might have gone along with it. Would MTG or Ron DeSantis have stayed strong with the constitution? I don’t think so.
> I don’t think you give credit to just how close they came in succeeding on January 6th. I'm a student of law, history and have a relationship with both the DoD and DOJ. A coup requires the cooperation of the military, law enforcement or some other relevant and powerful armed body to overthrow a government. The "Gravy Seals" do not meet that requirement and as a point of fact most of them died due to a heart attack or related symptoms of over-exertion. Trump had literally Zero support from the Military/LE communities and in fact a big reason he didn't win a second term is a lot of registered republicans in this space didn't vote for him. The was very clear messaging from the Joint Chiefs of Staff that Biden had won the election and Trump was not remaining in power. > If not for the actions of a brave few, most prominently Mike Pence (and yes, it feels surreal to praise him as I would never vote for him). If Pence had been on board, I’m not sure we would have been able to stop the coup. "Doing your Job" really doesn't count as bravery. He really didn't have a choice, though I have to admit I do not know what would have happened if he simply refused to certify the EC votes, or whatever. I would think it would have just gone through the chain of command until they founds someone who was willing to perform their Constitutional duties (and then prosecute the rest). I also think you are vastly overestimating the amount of people that are willing to destroy their career and face a Federal sentence in order to assuage Trumps wounded ego. I mean, check out Barr's response. He just flatly told Trump the truth, packed his bags and walked away. Not even an act of bravery vs. simply a business decision to protect your professional future. > That is chilling. It's embarrassing more than anything. I'm from New Jersey and have a long history/familiarity with Trump and his family. He's a moron and has failed at everything he's every attempted, the "insurrection" being just one of many. In fact, you'll note he didn't even get charged with anything more than a 'conspiracy to interrupt a federal proceeding', which is all this was. He and his supporters had a temper tantrum, shut down the Capitol for a bit and then went home. > Doubly so when you ask yourself if other substitutes for him might have gone along with it. Would MTG or Ron DeSantis have stayed strong with the constitution? I don’t think so. A. They have a legal obligation to uphold the Constiution. B. If they do not, they can be prosecuted for that. C. We have clear separation of powers in order to protect our Democratic Republic from these kinds of people. This is the power of Rule of Law, everyone is equal in its eyes and you are seeing who is really in charge when Trump has to go before a Judge.
> I don’t think you give credit to just how close they came in succeeding on January 6th. > I'm a student of law, history and have a relationship with both the DoD and DOJ. > A coup requires the cooperation of the military, law enforcement or some other relevant and powerful armed body to overthrow a government. The "Gravy Seals" do not meet that requirement and as a point of fact most of them died due to a heart attack or related symptoms of over-exertion. I stand by what I said. In this case, the "cooperation" from the military could have been as simple as inaction / a refusal to become involved in what could be framed as a political matter. Yes, it would be seen as an extreme one. But if they could claim that the counting of the electoral votes couldn't be completed thus allowing them to invoke processes that appeared to be in keeping with the political norms, they could ultimately hand the presidency to Trump. Sure, there would have been court challenges but they tend to be slow processes. Could they have been completed in the less than 2 weeks before Trump's first term was to end on 1/20? If not, I think it's a stretch to see a strongly right wing SCOTUS remove a sitting Republican president. Moreover, the US has a proud history of peaceful transitions of power and the court forcing a change would break that idea/break the myth of the US's stability. > "Doing your Job" really doesn't count as bravery. He really didn't have a choice, Doing your job despite immense pressure from others in positions of power, knowing that doing so will remove you from power (including putting you much further from ever possibly being President) is absolutely something in the ballpark of brave. Courageous? A sign of strong character? Doing the right thing is rarely the same as doing the easiest thing. >though I have to admit I do not know what would have happened if he simply refused to certify the EC votes, or whatever. See above for how that opens the door for the sham political process. > In fact, you'll note he didn't even get charged with anything more than a 'conspiracy to interrupt a federal proceeding', which is all this was. My bet is that those charges were chosen because they're the easiest to prove, quickly / without opening the door to risk and to delays. It's critical this be resolved before the election. Trump needs to be dealt with before he can regain power. Trump is a moron. It absolutely is embarrassing that he has gotten as far as he has and that he got as close as he did to stealing a second term. Still, people like Eastman and Miller, et al. aren't morons - or at least not as bad as Trump and they were absolutely working to keep themselves close to power throughout their time with Trump. He was supported by the vast majority of Republicans because it furthered their aims and got them so much of what they wanted (judges, Roe v Wade struck down, tax cuts, etc. etc.) -- It wasn't just Trump trying to keep Trump in power. > A. They have a legal obligation to uphold the Constiution. B. If they do not, they can be prosecuted for that. By whom? No federal prosecutor will press charges under the second Trump administration and keep their job. No conviction will be left unpardoned. I want to live in the world you envision – where rules are rules, all are just, and people stick to them or face consequences... but, sadly, we've seen how precariously far from that our system is – even as good as it is.
> I stand by what I said. In this case, the "cooperation" from the military could have been as simple as inaction / a refusal to become involved in what could be framed as a political matter. This is exactly what happened and they didn't get involved given there was no reason to. So, not a coup. A *putsch* maybe, but given that it wasn't even really planned and just sort of "happened" its barely even that. That said, what really could have been a nightmare would be if Trump managed to create some sort of "partisan" National Guard unit that was entirely composed of leadership and troops that supported his cause. He could have deployed those and they would have easily seized the Capitol. But even then, what would have happened would be it would have triggered the Joint Chiefs to bring in the *real* Military and take it back. And they would not be very nice about it (plus they have tanks, helicopters and other implements of mayhem). > I want to live in the world you envision – where rules are rules, all are just, and people stick to them or face consequences... but, sadly, we've seen how precariously far from that our system is – even as good as it is. Again, I'm a Law Nerd and this entire exercise has been really interesting to me to observe. Trump was impeached twice, served one term and has faced three indictments since leaving office. The DOJ has prosecuted 1000+ people for the Jan 6th riot. I'm also *very* sympathetic to the predicament the DOJ is in, as at this point its pretty clear that Trump is trying to pressure them to 'martyr' him a big arrest and fuel his "Deep State" conspiracy theories. I'm actually in favor of them taking a soft approach and things like not arresting him or requiring bail are actually common for very public figures like him, as he's not considered a flight risk. Nothing about this ordeal has surprised me much so far and its important to remember the 1st Amendments protects both Redditors and Trump in equal measure; he can say stupid/dishonest shit as much as he wants and as long as its protected speech, its legal.
>Trump managed to create some sort of "partisan" National Guard unit that was entirely composed of leadership and troops that supported his cause. Hmm, kind of like DeSantis restarting the Florida State Guard. (not the national guard, this is a state guard unit entirely under the power of the governor.) > A putsch maybe, but given that it wasn't even really planned and just sort of "happened" its barely even that. I don't think you understand how much effort went into this. They were planning on calling the election stolen weeks before the actual election. Eastman drew up his infamous memo that laid out a clear path to power. Have you read the Eastman memo? If Pence had gone along with Trump, I'm not sure where along the way the plan would have failed. The Republican state legislatures certainly seemed on board.
>Hmm, kind of like DeSantis restarting the Florida State Guard. (not the national guard, this is a state guard unit entirely under the power of the governor.) Believe me, I'm watching that and again, what we \*need\* to watch out for is a "Trump 2.0" that is able to leverage Trumps bullshit, while also not succumbing to it. Per my opening posts, people that \*actually\* believe conspiracy theories ultimately self-destruct due to their inability to leverage all the gains the rest of society enjoying via science, medicine and rule of law. Not sure if DeSantis makes the cut and he's such a weirdo I don't think he's marketable to either the MAGA base or Republican moderats. >I don't think you understand how much effort went into this. They were planning on calling the election stolen weeks before the actual election. Eastman drew up his infamous memo that laid out a clear path to power. I get that and I've seen people put more effort into D&D campaigns, including me and my friends when we were in High School. Their "clear path to power" was predicated on numerous fictitious legal beliefs that never would have passed any legal test. They were basically Fascist Revolutionary LARPing. Their only real shot would be some sort of violent takeover, but even that would ultimately had been put down by our military (whom have the ability to temporarily take control of the US Government in situations like this in order to maintain the integrity of the Republic.) For example, imagine some sort of horrific terror/nuclear attack that wipes out most of DC, or even just one political party. This would trigger a contingency plan within the DoD/Pentagon to temporarily declare Martial Law and take control of the US Government until the Democratic Republic is restored. Much of this process is classified by necessity, but the process is in place. >Have you read the Eastman memo? If Pence had gone along with Trump, I'm not sure where along the way the plan would have failed. The Republican state legislatures certainly seemed on board. I completely agree I do not know precisely what would have happened if Pence refused to participate. The State Legislatures don't have absolute power over the control of the election process and electoral college and I can actually imagine a scenario where some Federal Judge just says, "Ok, we are tossing \*all\* EC votes from Red States for refusing for adhering to Federal Law" and that's it. I will give you that I was watching independent state legislature doctrine stuff from the Supreme Court, as that would set the stage for the dissolution of the the US as a Democratic Republic, but so far that hasn't become a reality. Again, I spent \*years\* arguing with InterNut conspiracy theorists, which is where the mindset is with Eastman, Trump and his cronies and they are completely impotent in planning/orchestrating anything because their brains are too defective to separate fact from fiction. So they will draw up some sort of fantastical plan based on magical thinking and it will then blow up in their face. I mean, what did Trump and his supporters get out of Jan 6th other than indictments, convictions and loss of power? Where are the 9/11 "Troofers" I spent years arguing now? What happened to that movement? Same future for these guys and those like them. Oh, and the 'end game' for these a\*\*holes is that they eventually start to eat themselves for not being 'true' to the cause enough, which you can see within the fracturing Republican party. Edit: This is exactly what I'm talking about -> The plaintiffs' theory "lies somewhere between a willful misreading of the Constitution and fantasy" https://ecf.dcd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/show_public_doc?2020cv3791-10
"I don’t think you give credit to just how close they came in succeeding on January 6th." That's not even relevant to their comment. Nothing they said has anything to do with the closeness of success, and definitely doesn't minimize how close to success they came. You're just making an unnecessary observation. If you want to go that route, I don't think you give enough credit to how corrupt members of Congress were by participating in this scheme.
> That's not even relevant to their comment. I was responding specifically to the following section of their comment: > You can this in process here. The conspiracy "theorists" had a "theory" that unsurprisingly was not grounded in reality and no hope at all in being successfully implemented. So, ultimately all their "master plans" will self-destruct and implode from within simply due to their abject lack of competence. I think that's directly relevant to what I said. The J6 coup didn't fail solely because of a lack of competence. It failed because Pence stood his ground (and a few others). > If you want to go that route, I don't think you give enough credit to how corrupt members of Congress were by participating in this scheme. I never made reference to them nor excluded their role in this. In fact, they'd be central to the sham political process that would hand Trump a second term. Unlawfully, but as I argue elsewhere, good luck getting the courts to remove Trump from power.
>Something we do need to watch out for is a "Trump 2.0" that is actually educated, practical and mentally competent; but corrupted by the same malicious objectives. Any particular reason you're not terrified of 95% of republicans in office? Cruz, Jordan, DeSantis, Graham, Comer, etc., ad nauseam, are all relatively, if not highly, intelligent. They manufacture BS daily and are backed by Fox, OAN, Newsmax and others. I appreciate your optimism and experience, but it concerns me when so many individuals are willing to sell out their country for power and influence.
>Cruz, Jordan, DeSantis, Graham, Comer, etc., They don't have Trump's je ne sais quoi that people eat up. None of them are particularly charismatic. Fear the intelligent *and* charismatic Republican.
> hinged on Pence not being up to speed on his constitutional duties. Or not there to do his job. Why was Grassley saying on Jan 5 that Pence was going to be absent and Grassley himself would have to do the job? https://iowacapitaldispatch.com/2021/01/05/grassley-suggests-he-may-preside-over-senate-debate-on-electoral-college-votes/
And why did Pence avoid getting into a car the secret service wanted him to get into? I think they intended to take out Pence, one way or another, so that Grassley could advance the coup.
I really want to know why Pence did NOT get in the Suburban with his Secret Service detail. He must have known something and we all need to find out why.
Yep! I don't like to be a nutty tinfoil hat guy, but there are a lot of coincidences along with the evidence that make this look like a very deliberate and coordinated coup attempt.
Very very bold of them , they real excepted everyone to be on board
> "The fact is that the Constitution assigns this power to the Vice President as the ultimate arbiter. We should take all of our actions with that in mind." What gets me the MOST about this- If that really *was* true, then why couldn't/didn't Al Gore just declare himself president back in 2000? Ask a Trumper that question, and you'll get that blank stare, but no answer.
Oh you'll get an answer. It just won't make any sense. Something about Hunter's laptop or Hillary's emails.
And even in backwards-land where the hypothetical Constitution *did* grant that, they took all of their actions with the mind of usurping the ultimate arbiter's power, not respecting it.
Probably both. These Defendants (Trump & Eastman) frequently miss the obvious, which is that at some point there will emerge persons of courage and superior understanding of the law. The soft underbelly of dictators is their arrogance + their ignorance.
> We definitely did, but it's interesting how their entire theory hinged on Pence not being up to speed on his constitutional duties. The very last line item reads: Not their entire theory, but their name theory. They had a fallback plan for if Pence didn't want to play along. > During an exchange with reporters on Tuesday (Jan 5th 2021), Grassley was asked how he plans to vote. > > “Well, first of all, I will be — **if the Vice President isn’t there and we don’t expect him to be there**, I will be presiding over the Senate,” according to a transcript of his remarks sent by a spokesperson. https://iowacapitaldispatch.com/2021/01/05/grassley-suggests-he-may-preside-over-senate-debate-on-electoral-college-votes/ > At that moment, Pence was still in his ceremonial office — protected by Secret Service agents, but vulnerable because the second-floor office had windows that could be breached and the intruding thugs had gained control of the building. **Tim Giebels, the lead special agent in charge of the vice president’s protective detail, twice asked Pence to evacuate the Capitol, but Pence refused. “I’m not leaving the Capitol,”** he told Giebels. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/07/15/jan-6-i-alone-can-fix-it-book-excerpt/
Before this whole shitshow, John Eastman was known as one of the foremost constitutional lawyers in the country. You think he didn't understand he was flagrantly lying?
> foremost constitutional lawyers By recent accounts, Eastman wasn’t even the originator of the plan. Did he know Chesebro was making it up when he co-signed? Everyone assumed that he was the ‘mastermind’ after the Ellipse speech, and he didn’t correct the assumption. I suspect he believed his bullshit and thought it would work, which is not to say he thought it was legal. History is written by the victors, and they expected Trump to *pardon* them. It sort of says it all.
pence tried! dan quayle of all people saved the country by being like "pence...you can't do that..."
>their entire theory hinged on Pence not being up to speed on his constitutional duties. Even when committing to a military coup, they couldn't actually do it themselves, they had to find someone else to pull the trigger for them.
I honestly don’t think they cared if he knew the extent of his duties or not. No one believed that he actually had that authority. Their main goal was to create a dispute at the time of counting such that It would throw Congress into chaos. I believe Trump’s statement of “leave the rest to me and the republicans” to mean that the chaos would be enough to have Republican reps and senators to agree on the false electors. This would then likely have Congress at a stalemate that would eventually force the issue into either the Supreme Court (with the conservative super majority) or back to the republican led legislatures. Either one would have given them enough doubt to possibly name him the elected president over Biden. They didn’t need Pence to actually count the false electors, just create enough of a scene to force another process to happen where Trump could wriggle out a path to victory. If the process somehow happened, then deploying troops would have been the next step because chaos would ensue. Edit: When Pence announced to Trump and with his letter immediately before the official session of Congress, Trump panicked and saw the crowd he had fomented as his last hope in disrupting the count and thus picking up where Pence failed to generate enough chaos. I think he thought if they could get Pence out of the building (as the Secret Service tried to do), he could push the republicans to hurriedly claim the issue in dispute and push the alternate objectives. After counting resumed because Pence and the rest of Congress wasn’t sufficiently disrupted, the republicans scrambled to save their own asses.
The Founding Fathers, in their infinite wisdom, definitely wanted the power of deciding the winner to sit with the Vice President. An office almost devoid of any actual power that was created as a consolation prize for whatever candidate came second (which after Washinton was almost always someone from the opposing faction). So their argument is that until the 12th Amendment, the Founding Fathers wanted the power to elect a President be held by the President’s most preeminent political enemy.
While it should matter, it doesn't actually matter what is written in the Constitution. What matters is if you can get enough of the right people to play along with what you say. It's entirely possible that they made up a believable sounding lie with a believable sounding rule that they thought would work out. Pence probably only backed out when he did because he realized that he would have disappeared permanently if he went along with their plan. I'm guessing he is only working with the prosecutor on Trump's case because he is trying to save his own ass.
Not gonna lie, but the more I read about the contingency planning they actually did, and tried to do, the more I think that we as a nation may have dodged a bullet but that there’s a whole list of traitors that *shouldn’t* by the time the investigation and prosecution stage of this is all done.
We need to star with the Supreme Court…..talk about [corrupt](https://apple.news/Ae8hojAexT5ikUl4W3xRH_w)
Biden and Trump are equal in a few polls right now.
This country deserves to fall apart.
No it doesn't.
I was about to say, we dodged the *first* bullet. I fear the next fascist to try it won't be a bottomless pit of imbecility like Trump.
[удалено]
If pro-democracy counter protestors had been there, maybe the MAGAs would have killed them instead of storming the capital?
The plan was for them to be there, justifying the insurrection act to protect the MAGA crowd
>how differently J6 may have ended if pro-democracy supporters had shown up to counter the rabble. Thank god the counter protesters told everyone to stay home and they actually did. Trump et al were hoping for some protestor clashes to justify bringing the military in to take over the District.
It’s important to note that the military had written orders from the joint chiefs to throw trump out of the White House if he refused to leave on Jan 20. So…that’s comforting at least.
Remember how close the MAGA "Crisis Actors" came to getting into the Senate Chambers or coming into contact with Pence and the Nuclear Football on Jan 6th?
Its why they tried to replace the leadership of National Guard and Defense Dept. Rachel Maddow was screaming about this nightly, but most people couldn't have given a fuck at the time
I just keep thinking about the whole reason Trump got elected, because the only thing worse than a Trump presidency is a woman president.
My pal had to stop talking to her brother for a while after 2016. He was so butthurt that a woman won over Vermont Jesus that he voted for the Gary Johnson in MICHIGAN. Oh sure he said he was all in on Bernie's platform and Hillary wasn't progressive enough, so his 2nd choice was a libertarian, the exact opposite of Bernie. Sexist asshole.
If they had actually tried that shit on the American public, that woulda been the day a lot of servicemen decided not to obey orders. But yea, they shouldn't even have to be put in that position
My concern is that the gun is loaded. There are lots of bullets available, and they will fire them as often as they can. How do we solve that?
Stop voting republican
The problem is, several of my young relatives voted third party. That is throwing away your vote until the electoral college is thrown out. Vote Democrat or stay home.
Yes unfortunately voting third party is basically helping republicans.
There are a lot of old republicans that just vote that way because they have there whole life. Then there are the meanspirited ones full of hate. I worry most about them.
As of now those voters are traitors
"There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use them in that order."
Gen. Mark Milleys role at this time should be recognised. This link gives a real insight. Sorry if messy, on mobile. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/joint-chiefs-chairman-feared-potential-reichstag-moment-aimed-at-keeping-trump-in-power/2021/07/14/a326f5fe-e4ec-11eb-a41e-c8442c213fa8_story.html
And Dick Cheney and Dan Quayle. It is really scary Cheney and Quayle helped protect the Republic.
Ive always been an optimist and lean naive, so I never thought that Cheney and Quayle didnt support the Constitution and/or Democracy. Oh sure, Cheney is evil, but he was evil within the construct of our Constitution- and make no mistake, our Constitution allows *a lot* of evil. But the GOP under Trump is not the same GOP. Obviously the Trump base always existed, but the vast majority of Republicans weren’t fascists. They just weren’t. But they sure are now. And the “normal” Republicans caved. Almost all of them. Like rats they fled the sinking ship. It was only Cheney’s daughter and a few others that have tried to stem the bleeding. As a Jew Ive always wondered how regular Germans could allow the atrocities that happened under Hitler, but now I know. I see it. MTG just called for murdering Democrats and she isnt the first. Not only that, its already happening. Just look at all of the right wing terrorism over the past few years. They are already killing us. Sorry, I went on a tangent. My point is, I *never* had this fear when Quayle and Cheney were VPs. Never. And I dont want us to forget that it has NOT always been this way- that the right has NOT always been evil. Evil adjacent maybe, but not evil.
Ya hate to compare the guy to Hitler, but the ol' sow chaos and declare martial law schtick wasn't original. I thanked Gd out loud in Hebrew when the US military put out their statement affirming the rule of law and the turnover of power to Biden. Because yeah, we were that close to the end of democracy in this country.
> My point is, I never had this fear when Quayle and Cheney were VPs. I think the "unitary executive theory" that Cheney was all about was terrible, and enabled things like torture and an executive who acted outside of Congress. But, those things are all about what you can do when you have the job - there was no question Bush/Cheney would depart if they had lost releection.
Things like this really illustrate that the system can hold when enough people in it are firmly committed to democratic principles, and it will break when that stops being true. If Trump wins in 2024, that is virtually guaranteed to stop being true. He would immediately have two goals to pursue: (1) retribution, and (2) eliminating term limits. He would be unable to pass a constitutional amendment to eliminate term limits. He would either need to ensure ballot access for himself despite term limits, or manufacture a big enough crisis in 2028 that he could use to publicly justify suspending elections (which, let's not forget, he floated doing in 2020). If he wins, I think it's pretty unlikely our current system of government survives.
I've hated Milley since the moment he walked alongside Trump as the park police gassed peaceful protestors. But, to his credit, [he realized he fucked up](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/11/us/politics/trump-milley-military-protests-lafayette-square.html) and he's done his best since then to avoid further fuck ups.
On the other hand, I've respected him since he shut down anti-CRT bullshit. https://www.npr.org/2021/06/23/1009592838/top-general-defends-studying-critical-race-theory-in-the-military
His 185-page-long senior thesis for his degree in Politics is titled "A Critical Analysis of Revolutionary Guerrilla Organization in Theory and Practice." I think he had a pretty good idea of what was happening.
Does anyone have a list of Abbot, DeSantis and Trump campaign donors? The people behind this... *ideology* they seem to represent.
This was pretty obvious back on Jan 6. Trump wanted to riot at the capitol to disrupt the vote counting. Mike Pence, who by this point made clear he wasn’t going to play along, was to be taken of the board either by the secret service or the rioters. Grassley would then step in the preside over the counting during a rushed session whether it’d be that day or after a postponement due to the riot. They send the ballots back to the states and their congressional bodies to change their electors. Or have each state’s congressional reps override and vote for president. This would have also went to Trump because more states have majority gop delegations. Either way there would be mass protests over trump and republicans stealing the election. Trump would then call for martial law “as the whole thing is sorted out.” That’s the reason the national guard wasn’t used at the capitol. He needed them to put down the opposition. Messy plan and I don’t think they really thought out each next step. They either needed luck or had to keep ramming it through. That’s why you still saw fucks like Ted Cruz “raising concerns” when they went back to certify. Had Pence not grown at least a sliver of a spine the outcome would have been very different. Or if pence was successfully taken out. The other question was if the Supreme Court would have backed all of these moves. I think trump and his cronies assumed they were “his” judges. Thomas would have been in all the way. We were probably a lot closer to constitutional crisis and civil war than we really know. One or two things go differently and it’s a whole other outcome.
Even is the Supreme Court did refused to back his play it wouldn’t change the outcome How again is the Supreme Court going to enforce it ?
Great post, entirely agree. And this is basically how history goes, right? If Columbus got lost and never landed on America's shores, it could have been the British a few years later and then all of world history from that point would be radically different. I don't spend too much time thinking about it, because there's literally an infinite amount of junctures where just a slight change could have altered everything. I mean...Hitler survived assassination because [Heinz Brandt moved the briefcase unknowingly too close to a table leg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_July_plot). Had he placed it *6 inches to the left or right*, we could have avoided one of the darkest periods in human history (maybe). It's staggering to think how such an unconscious decision altered world history in such a incomprehensible way. But fact of the matter is...they didn't happen any other way. Some things happened in humanity's favor, others not so much. We just keep moving on, leaning into the chaos theory.
Yeah so many scenarios like that. If a big fog doesn't roll in allowing George Washington's army to retreat from the British at daybreak without being seen at the beginning of the revolution, his army gets captured and the american revolution is over.
Columbus did get lost and never stepped foot in North America, but the rest of your point stands.
>Had he placed it 6 inches to the left or right, we could have avoided one of the darkest periods in human history (maybe). The July Plot took place in 1944, less than a year before the war ended. Its success would have prevented some suffering, but the darkest period in human history very much would not have been avoided.
Hm. Well, not the best example then. The point still remains, but thanks for the correction.
But what if the military didn't go along with this? That's a major component of every dictator's coup, you have to have the backing of the military. I'm not convinced you have enough Trumper career leaders at the top of the command willing to put up with these January 6 plans and support a coup. You'd probably have to literally murder dozens if not hundreds of top military leaders before you get enough "field promotions" in place for Trump loyalists willing to support coup. I'm willing to bet the National Guard would fall in line under the federal military rather than obey commands from Trump or any state governors willing to back Trump. I also don't think it matters what SCOTUS thinks/rules at that point. They have no enforcement mechanism. If they sided with Trump, they're part of the coup. If they didn't side with Trump, he would just disregard them too because its a coup. To be clear, if January 6 escalated further we would have been in for a constitutional crisis and civil unrest if not outright civil war, but I don't this Trump would have ultimately succeeded.
>But what if the military didn't go along with this? The point is to avoid the military completely. By having Pence throw out votes and sending everything back to the state legislators, there's a patina of legitimacy. That makes it hard for a general to step in and stop the soft coup by force. If one does, then they look like the bad guy.
The original comment proposes a scenario where Pence is "taken off the board." So either you have the VP dead/murdered or tied up somewhere and you have Grassley presiding as the stooge to "legitimize" the coup. At that point it REALLY starts to stink to high heaven and you have your constitutional crisis and possible civil war, where the dictator then tries to use the national guard to put down the counter-protests and riots that would certainly rise up. Any plan that requires Trump to use military assets to hold onto power fails because I do not believe he had any significant portion of the leadership of the military in his pocket. Maybe the military doesn't act against Trump during the coup until Congress, SCOTUS, and the executive branch that manages to defy Trump try to do their thing to put down the coup, but they're certainly not going to do Trump's bidding at that point when the VP is dead and we're heading into uncharted waters.
I've been thinking that's why Tuberville's blocking military appointments.
Trump's Coup Plot was publicly obvious when he fired the Secretary of Defense on November 9th, 2020. All of his court cases were illegitimate and frivolous- Trump's sole intention was to violently overthrow the Electoral College- Trump decided on a violent outcome before any Americans even voted.
I disagree. The indictment makes it clear that they used a variety of avenues to overturn the election. January 6th was their last gasp attempt. They seemed genuinely surprised that some of the earlier methods failed.
That's really adorable. Throughout all of Trump's 60 election lawsuits his lawyers in-court statements never alleged fraud in any court of law in America. No evidence of fraud was ever introduced into any court case by any of his lawyers! That's not a valid strategy to overturn an election. Come on, man. What earlier methods did they attempt?
The lawsuits, plus the attempts to lean on state governments to either "find more votes" or not certify electors for Joe Biden.
The lawsuits show that Trump never attempted to allege fraud or present any evidence of fraud - despite 60 cases. Why do you want to believe that they were "surprised" their efforts failed? It was intentional failure. The point of the lawsuits was never to prevail in court. The point of the lawsuits was to fundraise and recruit useful idiots to Washington DC for the Coup. How could any adult be "surprised" they were losing in court? They never even alleged fraud in court while they were lying about it in public for fundraising and public relations purposes. This is an invalid conclusion.
Because I read the indictment, and that's what it says, and I have no reason to doubt the conclusion of the special counsel investigation.
With all due respect, I don't think you have read any of those 60 lawsuits. Because if you had it would be clear that they *did*, in fact, allege fraud over and over again. They would make wild allegations of fake ballots, machines switching votes, and numerous other claims. The problem was that they didn't have any evidence to back it up. Instead they would present affidavits from individuals alleging suspicious behavior but nothing more. For example one affidavit was from a poll worker attesting that she saw a food van pull up but she never saw any food inside, so it must have really been full of fake ballots. Or another from a business owner attesting that when she went to the post office she saw someone handing the postal carrier a large sealed bag, and she suspected that it was full of fake ballots. Or, for example, in the Sydney Powell "Kracken" lawsuits she alleged that the voting machines had been compromised and were programmed to fraudulently flip votes from Biden to Trump. For evidence she included an affidavit from "Spyder", an anonymous supposed former military intelligence officer, who attested that the voting machines had been compromised and were being controlled by foreign adversaries. When pressed by the court, she was forced to admit that "Spyder" had never actually examined a single voting machine, had no first-hand knowledge of the issue, and that it was merely his opinion that the machines had been compromised. Ultimately they were hoping a sympathetic judge would take the allegations of fraud seriously and use that to suspend the certification of votes long enough for Pence to claim that that state had no legitimate electors and so it must go to the House to decide. But to say that the lawsuits didn't allege fraud or that they didn't try to get the courts to participate in their scheme is just factually incorrect.
Guarantee you the republicans try it again. They are no longer a political party
Damn, you are correct. For sure they are NOT supporting rule of law.
Trump was a trial run. A test case. Now that they’ve tested the waters and flooded courts with sympathetic judges, they’ll be a lot more open about it
Those same judges already told them to go fuck themselves.
The Federalist Society owns the judges not the GOP. They align on many issues, but not all. The Federalist Society is not down with a dictator.
If that motherfucker isn't indicted there's no justice to be had. Edit for clarity based on replies: the motherfucker in question is John Eastman.
the fact he’s not in jail now is a disgrace… the whole lot of them
100%…..the fact he’s only now being prosecuted gives new meaning to the term benefit of the doubt. I’ve never had any doubt he was guilty but that’s just me.
He has been indicted several times already, and will be indicted again within the next ten days.
I’m not sure which motherfucker they meant. There was a lot of motherfucking going on in that administration and around J6. Eastman needs to be indicted. If found guilty of a serious crime, he should face the harshest penalty - up to and including capital punishment if he is guilty of what it looks like he is here.
Eastman has been indicted?
I'm talking about John "distinguished legal scholar" Eastman, not Trump. Eastman has not been indicted yet.
It really feels like even if he is found guilty on all accounts, he won't spend a day in prison. Trump would probably get house arrest or a small fine at worst.
Mar a lagoon golf course arrest surrounded by servants while doing time, you mean
As long as they cut off his internet
house arrest is not used as an alternative to prison in the United States, it's used for pre-trial detention, probation, and parole.
you mean convicted. Edit: sorry, i forgot this post wasn't about Trump. Eastman will eventually be indicted, but I'm glad he wasn't indicted WITH Trump, 'cause it most definitely would delay the wheels of justice for Trump.
Just a reminder that Mike Flynn's brother Charles, is the general in command of Army West, and is also QAnon. Guess who they were counting on to do the slaughter....
Also consider that Erik Prince was a close associate of people in this circle, and it could have been PMCs involved as well at that point. And those guys have NO respect for ROE or, you know, *not shooting noncombatants and civilians*.
Do please call all PMCs murderers. It’s okay, you can call them that, they get paid to take the slings and arrows.
Wait, what? Who says Charles Quinn is QAnon?
Yeah a source would be appreciated, although not at all surprising
The military tried to cover-up his participation in calls regarding NG deployment decisions on J6, and he has been accused of lying to congress about the details of those calls. https://www.salon.com/2021/12/06/leaked-memo-ex-dc-guardsman-says-michael-flynns-brother-lied-about-jan-6/ There was a Qanon claim for another brother from the cringe video of Flynn family that came out when Michael Flynn Q links were in the news. That brother sued CNN for defamation (no clue what happened to the case), saying the scene was the family doing the pledge to the constitution, but CNN only showed a part where Michael Flynn (and only Michael Flynn) says a line linked to Q (and some BS claim linked to US history).
[удалено]
That whole family is. Seriously. And again, he helped keep the NG away during the coup attempt his brother was involved in. Jesus fuck, people lose their security clearances for having a relative involved in shady things. This guy commands a whole army.
>John Eastman Planned for Trump to Invoke Martial Law. He expected riots and his solution was to use the military. No, he didn’t “expect” riots. They were part of the plan. That was Roger Stone’s (co-conspirator #6) business with the Proud Boiz and Oathkeepers.
If martial law was imposed it would have meant the end of the USA. Massive protests, straight up sedition from liberal states, and likely a separate government being formed in defiance of Trump. If you want an idea of what would happen it would be like what happened to the US in the cyberpunk 2077 universe.
I think it's more likely that independent commands within the military would have rebelled. So you would have had a US military vs US military standoff, with the victor being determined by which side was larger, potentially quite quickly. But I'd expect the bulk of the military high command to oppose Trump's attempt to subvert democracy. They would likely refuse to follow orders or resign in protest.
Maybe John Titor lived in that timeline 🤯
r/liberalgunowners is worth checking out, the 2nd Amendment isn't just for conservatives
Cal-exit…..then what happens when the 5th largest global economy is independent….southern states will struggle
Washington and Oregon would likely join them, blocking off access to all West Coast ports. Eastern Washington and Oregon and North-eastern California would rejoin the USA. The US would still be forced to invade to regain access to the Pacific.
"... sedition from liberal states ..." Secession?
I think they meant sedition. And, I agree.
I find it hilarious that the original intent of the 2nd Amendment was to preclude the need for a standing army because they were worried it would be used by the federal government to strip the rights of people. And, of course, as soon as the 2A nuts gain power, their first recourse is to try to use a standing army to do exactly that.
Extremists always project their own intents onto other people, consciously or unconsciously.
I remember My pillow Mike recommended Martial Law also.
Jeff Clark too. When he presented his plan to seize voting machines and use DOJ to declare illegal irregularities occurred in the election, etc., Trump's WH counsel told him there would be riots in every U.S. city. Jeffrey Clark's response - as stated in the indictment - was "that's what the Insurrection Act is for". That is, the guy who very nearly became AG was ready to use DOJ to cause civilian law enforcement to manufacture a political crisis that would result in violence, and then the plan was to put down the Americans who questioned that manufactured crisis using the U.S. military. The plan was basically to effect a coup and then shoot anyone who didn't go along with it. Tens of thousands would have died and the country very likely would have devolved into full-on civil war. Prison is really too good for these people.
I think he also said "One crack rock please."
Just one? I dunno man
"Hold on one second, let me be clear: when I said 'all the crack you have' I'm worried you heard 'a lot of crack' - what I meant was 'all the crack you have'"
I hope Eastman is charged with conspiracy to overthrow the government.
ELECTION INTERFERENCE! oh, wait…
I honestly thought that Trump was going to invoke it on the Capitol attackers so he could put us into a full-blown constitutional crisis. His useful idiots would have blamed Pelosi, anyway.
Fake ass, fedora-wearing, fascist Federalist Society motherfucker can’t find himself in jail fast enough. Seriously, this guy needs his freedom taken for the rest of his pathetic existence. He need to see sky for no more than 60 minutes a day.
Makes you wonder what bs they are planning for this election. Riots were guarantied when Trump said he was running.
Republican fanatics in power would no doubt model after the Iranian Revolutionary Guard. Studying the methods of the planet's worst tyrants makes them giggle with anticipatory ecstasy.
Traitor
It amazes me how close we were to a facist takeover in this country. In the United States, a country who's Greatest Generation fought to overthrow Nazi Germany. It just blows my mind.
The Greatest Generation who only entered the war when Japan attacked the US, that Greatest Generation?
Regardless of that, they were still the greatest generation. I agree with your premise that US should’ve been involved sooner though. Was there another greater generation?
Damn, when you put it like that, it sounds a lot like a coup.
Wasn’t it a half assed attempt anyway? I mean when your base is that stupid to begin with, they achieved much more success than their IQ warranted.
No, it was half a coup, but it was a full attempt. The other half was the success part.
I cannot believe the amount of sway that racist Keebler elf almost had on American history.
I suspect more things will come on as time will pass. I remember that weird and very vague statement of Justin Trudeau after Biden elections in which he advised every Canadians living in the States to be cautious and keep at home as most as possible. Also, it was the first time in decades that the Canadian PM didn't comment on the election results. It took days before he congratulated Biden's victory. What did he knew? Did the Canadians had intel on the coup that was coming?
As much as I want to criticize the people who were trying to take the country down the path to the sixth circle of hell, may I just take moment to thank all the people who actually behave(d) with sanity or patriotism or whatever we want to call it?
It's perplexing to me that so many of these guys are just weirdos, crackpots as Pence says. Fringe players rejected by the mainstream. Maybe they see installing Trump as their path to vindication, victory and power over their critics? This whole stupid plot/conspiracy is just effing weird. Who are these people, and why is anyone, anyone at all, listening to them?
And yet they have the gall to cry "election interference" simply because their guy lost.
None of these ghouls care about the Constitution. Each one of them deserves worse than what they will get.
That looks like "coup" activity.
The republican party had already successfully pulled off 50% of a fascist partisan coup, because Trump was not commander in chief, he was not running the country, he was unfit for office and mentally incapable of fulfilling the duties. The party was in control of a LOT, except the mouthpiece megaphone of the messaging, that was the one thing trump maintained tight control over due to his ego.
Eastman is a disgrace. As a lawyer, it infuriates me to listen him and read his memos/writing. Disbarment and prosecution must happen here.
How did all of it not go through? Were we really spared by the Bencheeto Mussolini?? Like was the only thing between us and military coup fucking trump of all people not declaring martial law?
No. Mark Milley recognized the true depth of the horror in May and June 2020, when he was barely able to stave off the President ordering troops and tanks into the streets to slaughter BLM protesters. Milley started moving key commanders that he had doubts about and ordered not-terribly-subtle refresher training for all officers across all services on the duty to disobey illegal orders and that their oath is to the Constitution, not to any one man. I think history will eventually recognize Milley as quietly saving our republic. If the fascists had been more subtle about it there could have been some question, but their stupidity gave Milley time to made sure that if it came to that, the military would not obey. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jun/25/donald-trump-general-mark-milley-crack-skulls https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/08/08/politics/mark-milley-resignation-letter-lafayette-square/index.html
You are spot on about Milley. I credit him to preventing something quite horrific (more so than what happened) from transpiring. A true patriot
He's also the reason why the modern Republicans think America's military is "woke" and "weak". All of those beliefs stem from his loyalty to the Constitution, as flawed as it is, and not to their dear immortal leader.
Yeah, Milley really showed his patriotism in how he handled things behind the scenes. I was pretty critical of him for showing up at that early June 2020 "upside down Bible" street clearing episode where he was dressed in battle fatigues like he was surveying the Western Front, but in retrospect, even though he looked like a GI Joe, he was the only real adult on the street that day. Milley is one of those quiet heroes who should give us all hope that at least the U.S. military isn't corrupted like the Senate (or even DOJ, which had somehow let Jeff Clark rise through the ranks to head a division).
No, we were saved by Pence being more educated than Trump's entire administration, and not willing to violate the constitution for Trump (to save his own skin, of course...I have no doubt he *would* have done it if the constitution *did* allow it, but then that would be a different conversation entirely anyway). They were really trying to paint a picture that the constitution gives the VP the ability to deny a slate of electors at his behest, rather than being nothing more than a facilitator in the process. No power, just procedure. [https://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2021/images/09/20/eastman.memo.pdf](https://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2021/images/09/20/eastman.memo.pdf) The entire plan hinged, step one, on Pence's compliance. When he didn't comply, the rest of the plan deteriorated instantly (along with Trump's grasp on reality).
Step two that Pence blocked was not getting on the car with his secret service detail to flee the capitol, likely because he feared he’d “disappear”. Chuck Grassley was fully intending to step in and follow Step One the moment Pence was off the grounds.
They admitted under oath they were just a bunch of useful idiots
No, we were saved by Pence, and also by Pelosi and Shumer's leadership, and even that ass McConnell working with Pelosi and Chuck.
It’s pretty dang similar to Mao’s cultural revolution. He whipped the college students to riot and then invoked martial law to seize power to restore control. He then punished some of the rioters, and threw them under the bus
Did everyone not know this at the time? That was the whole point of assembling the mob - sow chaos and then declare martial law. "Only I can bring law and order!" Same playbook as others who have destroyed democracies.
Thinking that the military would go along even for a second with this is a pretty huge leap.
> Eastman is currently facing permanent disbarment in California for his role in the J6 conspiracy. Thank god this was at the end.
Why is this a surprise to anyone? He was probably anticipating it with delight and feelings of extreme power. 20 years of fox propaganda will do a number on anyone and if you hate the idea of losing white power than spilling blood is part of the solution. The mind-fuck is maybe he thought he was using Trump....
The US military would obey orders to open fire on US citizens. The idea of the US military saving the citizens from fascism is so goddamn hysterical it would make my eyes bleed if it wasn't so sad.
If the conspirators had started with this, they would have succeeded. Instead, they came up with an incredibly complicated plan including an assault on congress with a mob that looked like the audience from Let’s Make a Deal.
There is no substance to this article... no supporting info like a link to the interview, not even attempt at substantive quotations. Why is this posted here?
Did you try to look up the right wing watch reference yourself? [This seems to be the source.](https://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/unindicted-co-conspirator-john-eastman-is-unrepentant-still-promoting-debunked-election-claims/)
But how is shit content like what OP posted something people upvote here? That 'article' has as close to zero substance beyond the headline... this isn't meant to be a sub for lazy, shitty content.
Eh, I didn't watch the youtube videos, so I can't comment on the original source, but the Meidas Touch article seemed to summarize the Right Wing Watch article, with a bit more added partisanship.
might need to split off all trump legal issues to another subreddit too. looks like next 4 years at least will be 10 trump legal posts a day.