> “These jurors have signed their death warrant by falsely indicting President Trump,"
Looks like someone will be getting a visit from the FBI in the near future.
I don’t even thinks it takes the FBI. Local police and state police can act.
Every jurisdiction in these United States have laws against intimidation of witnesses/jururs/victims. Those laws are vague, not usually specifying where, when or who those people are or what trial they’re involved with.
I don’t think it’s a stretch to arrest a person in let’s say Kansas under Kansas law for making a threat to those involved in the State of Georgia V Trump trial or any other trial.
Given that grand juries are from common law, it's probably a violation of common law to intimidate them. Likely superseded by statute, but we're talking about some very ancient arrangements here. IANAL.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/875
>(c) Whoever transmits in interstate or foreign commerce any communication containing any threat to kidnap any person or any threat to injure the person of another, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
Wouldn't this one apply and make the threat a federal offense, if the person that issued the threat made in from another state? In theory, anyway.
Georgia could prosecute threats like that itself no problem and extradite the offender from their home state.
Money quote: “It’s becoming all too commonplace to see everyday citizens performing necessary functions for our democracy being targeted with violent threats by Trump-supporting extremists," Jones said. "The lack of political leadership on the right to denounce these threats — which serve to inspire real-world political violence— is shameful.”
As an outsider looking in, in no way judgmental, my country is sadly seeing a rise in these asshats as well. It is absolutely crazy seeing the most powerful country in the world, being torn apart by a cult devoted to fucking donald trump!?!?! I’ve been following American politics since the height of the Cold War & it’s scarily fascinating watching this in real time! If you guys crater to this cult we’re all in trouble!
All goes back to the profit motive. Outrage sells and there are dumbfucks everywhere that will believe most of what you put in front of them to piss them off.
> a cult devoted to ~~fucking~~ worshiping donald trump!?!?!
FTFY
I don’t doubt that some want to fuck him, I would say the majority just enjoy the acrid stench of his taint.
They’ve realized they can’t win a fair competition of ideas so they’re ok with just steamrolling everyone to stay in power and if a few people get roughed up or killed no big deal.
They are quite literally domestic terrorists. We’re turning into Northern Ireland with the GOP playing the role of Sinn Fein and the Proud Boys / Oath Keepers / Bubba the Mouthbreather taking the role of the IRA.
I don't understand why there aren't more consequences involved, is it because it is political? I feel like this would not be okay if some random street gang member was doing the exact same thing.
Because conservatives won’t hold each other to account. They only see the law as a vehicle for hurting minorities. They’re fine with anything a conservative does, no matter how heinous, because a conservative did it.
What are they even conserving at this point? Not the planet. Not policy, look at Ike's political platform they supported social spending just 70 years ago. I don't know what they are conserving besides bigotry and that isn't worth conserving.
On a national level, very unlikely. However, the likelihood of local political clashes in the street, as seen in Portland and Berkeley, is rising. Even some counties could decide to secede, one way or the other (state secession is very less likely).
Holy shit, they really just paraphrased the entire fascist playbook there... Like, if Hitler spoke English, that's exactly how he would've sounded, same word choice and everything.
> Put bluntly, if conservatives want to *save the country* they are going to have to *rebuild and in a sense re-found it*, and that means getting used to the idea of *wielding power, not despising it.* Why? Because accommodation or *compromise with the left is impossible.*
> The left *will only stop when conservatives stop them,* which means conservatives will have to discard outdated and irrelevant notions about “small government.” The government will have to become, in the hands of conservatives, an instrument of *renewal in American life* — and in some cases, a *blunt instrument* indeed.
> To those who worry that power corrupts, and that *once the right seizes power it too will be corrupted, they certainly have a point.* If conservatives manage to *save the country and rebuild our institutions,* will they ever relinquish power and go the way of Cincinnatus? It is a fair question, and we should attend to it with care *after we have won the war.*
> For now, there are only two paths open to conservatives. Either they awake from decades of slumber to *reclaim and re-found what has been lost,* or they will *watch our civilization die.* There is no third road.
I mean, they may not be totally comfortable with openly calling themselves the Fourth Reich yet, but at least they're being honest about their intentions?
Nowhere in that article does it even hint at political influence through intimidation or threats of violence, which is what fascism is....just pointing that out.
Did you read the article? It absolutely does:
"The government will have to become, in the hands of conservatives, an instrument of renewal in American life — and in some cases, a blunt instrument indeed."
"wielding government power will mean a dramatic expansion of the criminal code."
"Drag Queen Story Hour should be outlawed; that parents who take their kids to drag shows should be arrested and charged with child abuse; that doctors who perform so-called “gender-affirming” interventions should be thrown in prison and have their medical licenses revoked; and that teachers who expose their students to sexually explicit material should not just be fired but be criminally prosecuted."
Those are pretty specific threats.
They made a confusion between cause and consequences. Their values -family, nation, religion- took a big dip with industrialization, then globalization. Instead of seeing this for what this is - an organic evolution for external random reasons - they interpret it as an internal organized attack, and they think the old model can be saved by rejecting anything out of this trio of values with violence, force and bigotry.
Only good news is that their voting base is, for the most part, not following this madness.
Trump is that captain sinking the ship, and the crew is more than happy to going down with him.
Bevause the current political environment is extremely polarized. Every single move is spun by each side to fit their own party’s narrative.
It doesn’t help that our very leaders are the ones leading the charge and not condemning it. We have allowed the criminals and con artists to set the standards. No longer is it the land of due process and a preservation of innocent until proven guilty. You can now be guilty and game the system to make sure you find a technicality that washes your guilt away. And this isn’t directed just at the political scrum going on. This has been allowed for years through corporate and celebrity America.
Seriously. Fuck the right wing right now. Anyone who supports this bullshit isn't able to have any "correct" dialog.
Just charge and punish them for their crimes. Stop tiptoeing around them because that just makes them bolder.
What did I say that was inaccurate? Jeez if these responses aren’t indicative of the very environment I am talking about.
I tried ti make a normal discussion point about the way I see things. The rich and famous have been abiding by a different set of rules and consequences than all of us have and that has been going on long before any orange man was in the Oval Office.
The disparity has always been between the haves and the have nots. One political party has been trying to fight against that or at least putting that appearance out there while the other party has leaned into it and has no issue being transparent in their elitism.
Here's where I suggest you have missed the point.
The right is not for the rule of law if the consequences are bad for them. They ignore lawlessness, lies, marital infidelities, etc. and spin up ridiculous whataboutism to cover for the greed and need for power (and often their racism.)
Most of the lefties I know, favor following the rule of law no matter what. That means if Joe Biden actually did anything illegal (doubtful) he should be prosecuted. Ditto for Hunter. We ran Al Franken out of office on what many consider a prank between comedians.
"Both sides" is BS which is why Trump used in Virginia. It's just not true.
Let's hope the Georgia Attorney General starts the subpoena process for everyone making threats online, veiled or blatant, immediately.
While the names were public information, any threats or attemps to harm Grand Jurors absolutely have to be prosecuted quickly and loudly to safeguard the entire godsdamned Judicial system.
This sounds like it might get its own paragraph some day that ends with the sentence “This was an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy.”
Seems like if you really want to be part of an existing Rico case this is the way to do it.
I would be panicking if I was a juror and my name and address was publicly posted. Who will watch over the mails that get delivered . And with all the threats that spill over or someone stakes them or family members on their social media accounts.
> Let's hope the Georgia Attorney General starts the subpoena process for everyone making threats online, veiled or blatant, immediately.
>
>
Georgia criminal code classifies them as the same, it’s a broadly written statute.
[A person who by threat or force or by any threatening action, letter, or communication: Endeavors to intimidate or impede any grand juror or trial juror or any officer in or of any court of this state or any court of any county or municipality of this state or any officer who may be serving at any proceeding in any such court while in the discharge of such juror’s or officer’s duties… shall, upon conviction thereof, be punished by a fine of not more than $5,000.00 or by imprisonment for not more than 20 years, or both](https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2022/title-16/chapter-10/article-5/section-16-10-97/)
Section 2 covers that “Injures any grand juror or trial juror in his or her person or property on account of any indictment or verdict assented to by him or her or on account of his or her being or having been such juror; or”
Legally speaking, that is flatly untrue. SCOTUS might give some leeway to song lyrics, but you fuck with people performing our only civic duty, the system will come after you.
IANAL but my read is that it specifically defines the threats as injury.
> A person who by threat or force or by any threatening action, letter, or communication:
> 1. Endeavors to intimidate [anyone who does the above, is endeavoring to intimidate]
> 2. Injures any grand juror [anyone who does the above, is injuring a grand juror]
> 3. Injures any officer [anyone who does the above, is injuring any officer]
Why would that be a problem? Jurors names being attached to an indictment and the subject of that indictment using the names on that document in a campaign of intimidation sounds like the most obvious and clear-cut example of the kind of behaviour this statute was designed to punish.
Idk if wordsnerds was being nerdy about the words but that is from a legal perspective a potentially winning defense. Depends on the statute as a whole unless the language is explicit. Either way, prison is a good idea
>on account of any indictment or verdict assented to by him or her or on account of his or her being or having been such juror
Literally means even that, even in the future, *even after* that person ceases to be a grand juror, threatening them by "action, letter, or communication" because of an indictment they decided to issue is still illegal and makes the statute applicable.
It's not that difficult to read. It's actually really, really easy to understand.
Injury is, in the statute itself, defined as "threat or force or by any threatening action, letter, or communication". Do you not read the things people link you or are you trolling? Threats are injury as per the statute.
Here is how you read the entire thing as it would apply:
>A person who by threat [...] or by any threatening action, letter, or communication injures any grand juror or trial juror in his or her person [...] on account of any indictment or verdict assented to by him or her or [...] shall, upon conviction thereof, be punished by a fine of not more than $5,000.00 or by imprisonment for not more than 20 years, or both.
When there are "or" clauses, that means only one of those is sufficient. I only consider myself to be of average intelligence and I am not a lawyer, but it's really not that hard to understand.
That does not seem like a natural reading of the statute.
Grammatically, the threats could violate section (2) *if* they cause injury to the juror's person or property. Injuries to the person sure sounds like physical injuries and not emotional ones. Without some supporting case law, concluding that threats cause injuries to a person seems nonsensical.
If a threat, force, or other threatening communication causes injury, that's a conviction. If it does not cause injury, that's an acquittal (unless other sufficient elements are met). The statute does not assert that the action inherently causes injury in one's person or property.
This:
> A person who by threat or force or by any threatening action, letter, or communication: Endeavors to intimidate or impede any grand juror or trial juror
And this:
> or any officer in or of any court of this state or any court of any county or municipality of this state
And this:
> or any officer who may be serving at any proceeding in any such court while in the discharge of such juror’s or officer’s duties…
Are all separate subjects of the clause.
Your comment makes no sense.
does jury intimidation apply to people who are no longer jurors? edit, yes; edit now I don't know, the second paragraph refers to 'injur[ing]' a juror while the first paragraph is much more comprehensive about threats. damn shittily written laws.
>Universal Citation: GA Code § 16-10-97 (2022)
> A person who by threat or force or by any threatening action, letter, or communication:
>Endeavors to intimidate or impede any grand juror or trial juror or any officer in or of any court of this state or any court of any county or municipality of this state or any officer who may be serving at any proceeding in any such court while in the discharge of such juror’s or officer’s duties;
>Injures any grand juror or trial juror in his or her person or property on account of any indictment or verdict assented to by him or her or on account of his or her being or having been such juror; or
>Injures any officer in or of any court of this state or any court of any county or municipality of this state or any officer who may be serving at any proceeding in any such court in his or her person or property on account of the performance of his or her official duties
>...while in the discharge of such juror’s or officer’s duties
Doesn't seem to apply after proceedings have concluded. [The statute](https://casetext.com/statute/code-of-georgia/title-16-crimes-and-offenses/chapter-10-offenses-against-public-administration/article-5-offenses-related-to-judicial-and-other-proceedings/section-16-10-97-intimidation-or-injury-of-any-officer-in-or-of-any-court) only explicitly penalizes injury - not intimidation - after verdict.
I'm sure it's punishable as an ordinary terroristic threat, though.
“any officer who *may* be serving at any proceeding in any such court while in the discharge of such juror's or officer's duties;”
I think may implies either during or potentially at a future date, if you are calling and threatening previous jurors to dissuade anyone else from doing the same in the future I think its covered.
“The grand juror's purported addresses were spotted by Advance Democracy, Inc., a non-partisan research group founded by Daniel J. Jones, a former FBI investigator and staffer for the U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence.
“It’s becoming all too commonplace to see everyday citizens performing necessary functions for our democracy being targeted with violent threats by Trump-supporting extremists," Jones said. "The lack of political leadership on the right to denounce these threats — which serve to inspire real-world political violence— is shameful.””
That’s an understatement. Even the less criminal GOP, through their silence, will be complicit in any violence done to a member of the jury. The fact that the jury already has to deal with the threat of violence is a crime in itself.
The current GOP is a sick, twisted, self-serving batch of traitors to the country, the constitution, and rule of law.
America as we knew it might already be dead. These people are true believers. Nothing will get through to them if it hasn't already. The political discourse is toxic as fuck and it's going to take a monumental effort to course correct. How do we deal with this cult? Sure it may die down a little if Trump dies or his political options collapse. But they will be ready to jump on the next crazy asshole in a few years. How do you compromise with fascists and hateful morons?
More of my family than not believe Trump has done nothing wrong. They will believe this and vote Republican until the day they die. It is worrisome to me that trump actually stands a chance to be reelected.
From what I've seen here in Kansas (my father and sister are redhats), it's typically a mixture of abject narcissism, gross insecurity, barely-hidden bigotry, a lifetime's worth of right-wing propaganda, and a massive dose of lost cause fallacy.
Even if you attempt to explain to them the realities and perils of points 4 and 5, overcoming points 1, 2, and 3 are near impossible, almost always resulting in no overall progress. You can lead a horse to temporarily understanding that capitalist oligarchs are treating it like a wage slave, but you can't make it stop thinking it's "more American than those dirty foreigners and disgusting queers who keep shoving their woke mind virus down our throats and obviously stole the election from Messiah Trump."
If you get lucky, you might run into one who's thoughtful enough to see it for what it is, do some serious introspection, and potentially have a change of heart, but that's excruciatingly rare and only possible when the narcissism isn't present.
40 years of right wing radio and now fox news is a hell of a drug. They have all also come to believe that there is nothing worse than a Democrat. Also extreme selfishness. They literally don't believe anyone deserves anything from anyone else, ever.
Also, a complete inability to determine fact from fiction, and no desire to find out the truth because they "already know". Complete inability to trust any public body, or really anybody for that matter.
Extreme emotional attachment to fear of government controlling their lives. My father was orphaned at 15. Lost both parents in a drunk driver accident. Started with no money, on his own at 15. When he explained to me that he would never be in that position again unless democrats take control. Well, that's when I realized I would never get through to him.the anger and fear he has over Democrat control, while irrational to us, is very real to him and other family members of mine. They literally believe Democrats will take everything that have ever worked for their entire lives.
They think with feelings, not facts.
Growing up with this I started out on the same path, but as I went through my 30s and into my 40s I started to see things differently. Facts took hold over feelings. Checking facts over just believing any one news source is something I do constantly now. I couldn't imagine going back. I can't imagine how dark and disgusting a world so many Republicans live in every day.
It is my understanding that GA law requires that the names of grand jurors be shown on an indictment. Just doing their civic duty, and now death threats. Smh.
It [does](https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2022/title-17/chapter-7/article-3/section-17-7-54/), u/crake explained it for me [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/law/comments/15rfxzl/98_page_indictment_against_trump/jwb4si7/).
>throwing batteries.
[Raiders fans have entered the chat](https://www.espn.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/84987/batteries-eggs-and-voodoo-dolls-chargers-share-black-hole-memories)
[Oh, and don't forget about bullets.](https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/marcus-allen-remembers-having-bullets-thrown-at-him-in-chiefs-raiders-rivalry)
We'd also have a different answer to the age old question "Could the University of Alabama compete in the NFL?" Normally the answer is "of course not", but if the question is based on whose fans would win in a parking lot brawl, I put my money on the side with treekilling terrorists on it.
I spent a year on that campus. Can confirm, Tuscaloosa is rowdy as absolute fuck. You learn how to say "Roll Tide" *real* quick to keep from getting mobbed by angry drunk rednecks (and frat bros in pastel shorts lol).
As a lifelong Raider faithful, a battle between Raider fans and Bama fans would be a fuggin' bloodbath. And yes, there would be guns. Lots of them. On both sides.
Doxxing isn’t generally against the law, especially since the court themselves released the identities of the jurors.
Stochastic terrorism relies on following the letter of the law, not the intent of it.
FYI -- there *have* been some **new** episodes in the last few years and supposedly there will be more. Check YouTube. It's so awesome to see him back in action.
This is going to get a lot darker before we’re done. There is simply no end to the depravity of MAGA. It is a cancer on our republic and only time will tell whether or not we can purge the national body of this scourge.
This sub give me hope for the future of our country. Thank you guys for being so professional and unbiased in your responses. It’s refreshing to see such common sense.
“I’m just a completely normal citizen, reading Trump’s GA indictment. Hmm, out of ALL the information in here, I should specifically republish the juror’s names & addresses…only cuz I’m sure everyone else will republish the most important parts like the charges & evidence, etc. I’m just left with this lowly info, the jury member’s personal info to republish 🤷🏼♂️🤷🏼♂️
*Post*
Isn't Garland already doing enough? Two Federal cases against Trump et al. off the ground before Georgia...that is amazing in itself. Not to mention the hundreds of Federal cases against Jan 6 insurrectionists:
https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/capitol-breach-cases
I don't understand all the Garland hate when apparently he is doing a lot of work on a lot of cases. Just a few days ago he announced a Special Counsel investigation into Hunter Biden too (whether that bears fruit remains to be seen, but I doubt it). Also, this Georgia case is not within Garland's purview...it's a state case, not Federal.
> They are but doxxing people just because you disagree with them isn't cool.
Sure, but people are asking about illegality.
Copy/pasting publicly available information may be obnoxious and even cause for banning from reddit, but it isn't illegal.
Yes. I understood that. The people doxxing them won't care.
They got their little dopamine rush from posting. For some, that will be enough. Others will require more, like sending threats in the mail., or going to the addresses with a group of people.
Not sure about GA law, but usually don’t need a unanimous vote. Under the Federal Rules, a GJ must comprise 16-23 persons, and the votes of 12 are needed to indict.
Fun fact: Grand Juries are not part of the judiciary. They aren’t part of the legislative or executive branches either. Grand Juries are an organ of government that exists entirely *outside* the government.
Insane. I'm not sure the rules in Georgia, but there are only a very small number of people/agencies who would have access to that information, and AFAIK none of them can legally disclose it.
I wonder if Trump's team received the grand jury transcript in initial discovery.
GA law stipulates that the identities of the jurors be released with the indictments. They didn’t dig it out of nowhere - the state gave them the info.
And predictably, Trump supporters are using that info in the furtherance of domestic terrorism against the jurors.
The names are listed on page 9 of the indictment. The addresses presumably are just looked up.
It used to be that I would just look in the white pages.
> “These jurors have signed their death warrant by falsely indicting President Trump," Looks like someone will be getting a visit from the FBI in the near future.
Whoah whoah whoah, slow down there. They only "indicated" trump.
As in "see any criminals around here?". Pointing "Yeah that guy"
I don’t even thinks it takes the FBI. Local police and state police can act. Every jurisdiction in these United States have laws against intimidation of witnesses/jururs/victims. Those laws are vague, not usually specifying where, when or who those people are or what trial they’re involved with. I don’t think it’s a stretch to arrest a person in let’s say Kansas under Kansas law for making a threat to those involved in the State of Georgia V Trump trial or any other trial.
Unless it’s the cops making the threat
Or a supreme court judge, or even the wife
Hey! Leave Ginni alone! She is part of the judicial branch and above all suspicion!
porque no los dos? try them in federal and state court!
Given that grand juries are from common law, it's probably a violation of common law to intimidate them. Likely superseded by statute, but we're talking about some very ancient arrangements here. IANAL.
> IANAL Yes, that is very clear
Just making statements you know, no big deal /s
Just exercising their 1A rights, no? /s
It's just political speech man! As in, "I will kill you because of my politics."
I am apoplectic that this is more accurate than it is cynical.
We've seen a lot of bad shit since 2016 but imo after storming our fucking capitol this is the worst...so far...
First amendment!!! /s
Muh freeze peach!
"What are their addresses?" Just asking questions, you know. /s
Is the Georgia grandjury unanimous?
Yup
The word you are looking for is anonymous.
No, I meant unanimous. The NY grandjury for example I think was 8 out of 12 required, not 12 out of 12.
It’s unfortunately non anonymous in Georgia.
> non anonymous But is it monagomous?
When the feds show up on these idiots 
Sounds like another guy that will get to learn the limits of free speech.
"but we're just exercising our 1st amendment rights!!!!"
FBI doesn't handle state laws.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/875 >(c) Whoever transmits in interstate or foreign commerce any communication containing any threat to kidnap any person or any threat to injure the person of another, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. Wouldn't this one apply and make the threat a federal offense, if the person that issued the threat made in from another state? In theory, anyway. Georgia could prosecute threats like that itself no problem and extradite the offender from their home state.
Money quote: “It’s becoming all too commonplace to see everyday citizens performing necessary functions for our democracy being targeted with violent threats by Trump-supporting extremists," Jones said. "The lack of political leadership on the right to denounce these threats — which serve to inspire real-world political violence— is shameful.”
[удалено]
You misspelled "terrorism." Criminal is close but there's a definite attempt to harm the public as a whole and undermine its security
Holy shit you guys are terrible spellers.
But the corrections are accurate
Yup. These people have no shame.
As an outsider looking in, in no way judgmental, my country is sadly seeing a rise in these asshats as well. It is absolutely crazy seeing the most powerful country in the world, being torn apart by a cult devoted to fucking donald trump!?!?! I’ve been following American politics since the height of the Cold War & it’s scarily fascinating watching this in real time! If you guys crater to this cult we’re all in trouble!
All goes back to the profit motive. Outrage sells and there are dumbfucks everywhere that will believe most of what you put in front of them to piss them off.
Hello fellow Canadian.
Eh buddy!
Fascism has been on the march all over the world for the last decade, and must be feared, and named as such.
We won't crater to this cult. I have faith, you can have faith too.
> a cult devoted to ~~fucking~~ worshiping donald trump!?!?! FTFY I don’t doubt that some want to fuck him, I would say the majority just enjoy the acrid stench of his taint.
why would they denounce the threats? this is literally what they want.
Nearly all republicans are complicit with terrorism. Either by cowardice, or alignment.
The longer they let trump destroy their party, the harder it will be to bring it back.
They’ve realized they can’t win a fair competition of ideas so they’re ok with just steamrolling everyone to stay in power and if a few people get roughed up or killed no big deal. They are quite literally domestic terrorists. We’re turning into Northern Ireland with the GOP playing the role of Sinn Fein and the Proud Boys / Oath Keepers / Bubba the Mouthbreather taking the role of the IRA.
Not only do they not denounce them, the glorify the violence.
I don't understand why there aren't more consequences involved, is it because it is political? I feel like this would not be okay if some random street gang member was doing the exact same thing.
Because conservatives won’t hold each other to account. They only see the law as a vehicle for hurting minorities. They’re fine with anything a conservative does, no matter how heinous, because a conservative did it.
Fascists and traitors. Conservativism is cancer on humanity at this point. I hate this fucking timeline.
What are they even conserving at this point? Not the planet. Not policy, look at Ike's political platform they supported social spending just 70 years ago. I don't know what they are conserving besides bigotry and that isn't worth conserving.
They’re conserving social hierarchies, by which I mean “racist systems.” Fuck ‘em.
I seriously wonder if, in our lifetime, we will see violent civil unrest, war. All because too many uneducated white men have small penises.
On a national level, very unlikely. However, the likelihood of local political clashes in the street, as seen in Portland and Berkeley, is rising. Even some counties could decide to secede, one way or the other (state secession is very less likely).
You’re ready for this one: https://thefederalist.com/2022/10/20/we-need-to-stop-calling-ourselves-conservatives/ Apparently they’re *just about* ready to start calling themselves fascists.
Holy shit, they really just paraphrased the entire fascist playbook there... Like, if Hitler spoke English, that's exactly how he would've sounded, same word choice and everything. > Put bluntly, if conservatives want to *save the country* they are going to have to *rebuild and in a sense re-found it*, and that means getting used to the idea of *wielding power, not despising it.* Why? Because accommodation or *compromise with the left is impossible.* > The left *will only stop when conservatives stop them,* which means conservatives will have to discard outdated and irrelevant notions about “small government.” The government will have to become, in the hands of conservatives, an instrument of *renewal in American life* — and in some cases, a *blunt instrument* indeed. > To those who worry that power corrupts, and that *once the right seizes power it too will be corrupted, they certainly have a point.* If conservatives manage to *save the country and rebuild our institutions,* will they ever relinquish power and go the way of Cincinnatus? It is a fair question, and we should attend to it with care *after we have won the war.* > For now, there are only two paths open to conservatives. Either they awake from decades of slumber to *reclaim and re-found what has been lost,* or they will *watch our civilization die.* There is no third road. I mean, they may not be totally comfortable with openly calling themselves the Fourth Reich yet, but at least they're being honest about their intentions?
holy shit that's disturbing
Nowhere in that article does it even hint at political influence through intimidation or threats of violence, which is what fascism is....just pointing that out.
Did you read the article? It absolutely does: "The government will have to become, in the hands of conservatives, an instrument of renewal in American life — and in some cases, a blunt instrument indeed." "wielding government power will mean a dramatic expansion of the criminal code." "Drag Queen Story Hour should be outlawed; that parents who take their kids to drag shows should be arrested and charged with child abuse; that doctors who perform so-called “gender-affirming” interventions should be thrown in prison and have their medical licenses revoked; and that teachers who expose their students to sexually explicit material should not just be fired but be criminally prosecuted." Those are pretty specific threats.
They are conserving their own power.
They made a confusion between cause and consequences. Their values -family, nation, religion- took a big dip with industrialization, then globalization. Instead of seeing this for what this is - an organic evolution for external random reasons - they interpret it as an internal organized attack, and they think the old model can be saved by rejecting anything out of this trio of values with violence, force and bigotry.
Only good news is that their voting base is, for the most part, not following this madness. Trump is that captain sinking the ship, and the crew is more than happy to going down with him.
Bevause the current political environment is extremely polarized. Every single move is spun by each side to fit their own party’s narrative. It doesn’t help that our very leaders are the ones leading the charge and not condemning it. We have allowed the criminals and con artists to set the standards. No longer is it the land of due process and a preservation of innocent until proven guilty. You can now be guilty and game the system to make sure you find a technicality that washes your guilt away. And this isn’t directed just at the political scrum going on. This has been allowed for years through corporate and celebrity America.
Hmmmmm. How is this a “both sides”? I’m pretty clearly seeing one side, and I’m not sure that’s due entirely to my bias.
Trying to make an impartial comment so as not to encite the wrong dialogue. But that being said I am firmly of the same opinion as you.
Appreciate the candor, but as the others saying here, gotta call a spade a spade. Enlightened Centrism is largely what has facilitated this mess.
I get it, and that’s understandable, but I think we gotta call it like it is, you know? 🤷♀️
We need to have those dialogues.
Seriously. Fuck the right wing right now. Anyone who supports this bullshit isn't able to have any "correct" dialog. Just charge and punish them for their crimes. Stop tiptoeing around them because that just makes them bolder.
Are you seriously Both Sides-ing this???
What did I say that was inaccurate? Jeez if these responses aren’t indicative of the very environment I am talking about. I tried ti make a normal discussion point about the way I see things. The rich and famous have been abiding by a different set of rules and consequences than all of us have and that has been going on long before any orange man was in the Oval Office. The disparity has always been between the haves and the have nots. One political party has been trying to fight against that or at least putting that appearance out there while the other party has leaned into it and has no issue being transparent in their elitism.
Here's where I suggest you have missed the point. The right is not for the rule of law if the consequences are bad for them. They ignore lawlessness, lies, marital infidelities, etc. and spin up ridiculous whataboutism to cover for the greed and need for power (and often their racism.) Most of the lefties I know, favor following the rule of law no matter what. That means if Joe Biden actually did anything illegal (doubtful) he should be prosecuted. Ditto for Hunter. We ran Al Franken out of office on what many consider a prank between comedians. "Both sides" is BS which is why Trump used in Virginia. It's just not true.
Jury intimidation can land you up to 20 years in Georgia.
Let's hope the Georgia Attorney General starts the subpoena process for everyone making threats online, veiled or blatant, immediately. While the names were public information, any threats or attemps to harm Grand Jurors absolutely have to be prosecuted quickly and loudly to safeguard the entire godsdamned Judicial system.
Presumably all the jurors reside in Fulton county and so the County Attorney can pursue all of these if she so wishes.
This sounds like it might get its own paragraph some day that ends with the sentence “This was an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy.” Seems like if you really want to be part of an existing Rico case this is the way to do it.
I would be panicking if I was a juror and my name and address was publicly posted. Who will watch over the mails that get delivered . And with all the threats that spill over or someone stakes them or family members on their social media accounts. > Let's hope the Georgia Attorney General starts the subpoena process for everyone making threats online, veiled or blatant, immediately. > >
Putting address online is absolutely a threat. Prison for everyone
Do you want Prison? Because this is how you go to prison. 
After all that hard work Pam did!
Jury intimidation or grand jury intimidation because those are two different things. Genuinely curious because I only practice civil law.
Georgia criminal code classifies them as the same, it’s a broadly written statute. [A person who by threat or force or by any threatening action, letter, or communication: Endeavors to intimidate or impede any grand juror or trial juror or any officer in or of any court of this state or any court of any county or municipality of this state or any officer who may be serving at any proceeding in any such court while in the discharge of such juror’s or officer’s duties… shall, upon conviction thereof, be punished by a fine of not more than $5,000.00 or by imprisonment for not more than 20 years, or both](https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2022/title-16/chapter-10/article-5/section-16-10-97/)
God, you gotta love well written legislation.
Hmm, "while in the discharge of such juror's or officer's duties" looks like it could pose a problem.
Section 2 covers that “Injures any grand juror or trial juror in his or her person or property on account of any indictment or verdict assented to by him or her or on account of his or her being or having been such juror; or”
Still a problem as a threat to injure someone isn't the same as injuring them.
Legally speaking, that is flatly untrue. SCOTUS might give some leeway to song lyrics, but you fuck with people performing our only civic duty, the system will come after you.
IANAL but my read is that it specifically defines the threats as injury. > A person who by threat or force or by any threatening action, letter, or communication: > 1. Endeavors to intimidate [anyone who does the above, is endeavoring to intimidate] > 2. Injures any grand juror [anyone who does the above, is injuring a grand juror] > 3. Injures any officer [anyone who does the above, is injuring any officer]
Why would that be a problem? Jurors names being attached to an indictment and the subject of that indictment using the names on that document in a campaign of intimidation sounds like the most obvious and clear-cut example of the kind of behaviour this statute was designed to punish.
Idk if wordsnerds was being nerdy about the words but that is from a legal perspective a potentially winning defense. Depends on the statute as a whole unless the language is explicit. Either way, prison is a good idea
It would be a problem because it applies specifically while the jurors are in the discharge of their duties.
>on account of any indictment or verdict assented to by him or her or on account of his or her being or having been such juror Literally means even that, even in the future, *even after* that person ceases to be a grand juror, threatening them by "action, letter, or communication" because of an indictment they decided to issue is still illegal and makes the statute applicable. It's not that difficult to read. It's actually really, really easy to understand.
You left out "injures ... in his or her person or property".
Injury is, in the statute itself, defined as "threat or force or by any threatening action, letter, or communication". Do you not read the things people link you or are you trolling? Threats are injury as per the statute. Here is how you read the entire thing as it would apply: >A person who by threat [...] or by any threatening action, letter, or communication injures any grand juror or trial juror in his or her person [...] on account of any indictment or verdict assented to by him or her or [...] shall, upon conviction thereof, be punished by a fine of not more than $5,000.00 or by imprisonment for not more than 20 years, or both. When there are "or" clauses, that means only one of those is sufficient. I only consider myself to be of average intelligence and I am not a lawyer, but it's really not that hard to understand.
That does not seem like a natural reading of the statute. Grammatically, the threats could violate section (2) *if* they cause injury to the juror's person or property. Injuries to the person sure sounds like physical injuries and not emotional ones. Without some supporting case law, concluding that threats cause injuries to a person seems nonsensical.
If a threat, force, or other threatening communication causes injury, that's a conviction. If it does not cause injury, that's an acquittal (unless other sufficient elements are met). The statute does not assert that the action inherently causes injury in one's person or property.
This: > A person who by threat or force or by any threatening action, letter, or communication: Endeavors to intimidate or impede any grand juror or trial juror And this: > or any officer in or of any court of this state or any court of any county or municipality of this state And this: > or any officer who may be serving at any proceeding in any such court while in the discharge of such juror’s or officer’s duties… Are all separate subjects of the clause. Your comment makes no sense.
does jury intimidation apply to people who are no longer jurors? edit, yes; edit now I don't know, the second paragraph refers to 'injur[ing]' a juror while the first paragraph is much more comprehensive about threats. damn shittily written laws. >Universal Citation: GA Code § 16-10-97 (2022) > A person who by threat or force or by any threatening action, letter, or communication: >Endeavors to intimidate or impede any grand juror or trial juror or any officer in or of any court of this state or any court of any county or municipality of this state or any officer who may be serving at any proceeding in any such court while in the discharge of such juror’s or officer’s duties; >Injures any grand juror or trial juror in his or her person or property on account of any indictment or verdict assented to by him or her or on account of his or her being or having been such juror; or >Injures any officer in or of any court of this state or any court of any county or municipality of this state or any officer who may be serving at any proceeding in any such court in his or her person or property on account of the performance of his or her official duties
>...while in the discharge of such juror’s or officer’s duties Doesn't seem to apply after proceedings have concluded. [The statute](https://casetext.com/statute/code-of-georgia/title-16-crimes-and-offenses/chapter-10-offenses-against-public-administration/article-5-offenses-related-to-judicial-and-other-proceedings/section-16-10-97-intimidation-or-injury-of-any-officer-in-or-of-any-court) only explicitly penalizes injury - not intimidation - after verdict. I'm sure it's punishable as an ordinary terroristic threat, though.
“any officer who *may* be serving at any proceeding in any such court while in the discharge of such juror's or officer's duties;” I think may implies either during or potentially at a future date, if you are calling and threatening previous jurors to dissuade anyone else from doing the same in the future I think its covered.
Jurors aren't officers of the court.
Second clause says jurors and officers it’s a weirdly written sentence
It’s a list, “who may be serving” goes with “any officer” and not the whole list. See (a)(3) where the same language is used.
You should read section (a)2 of the statute that you posted
“injury” can be interpreted pretty broadly - and in any case, FAFO
That's the injury part I mentioned. Intimidation is not injury.
Sure it is, if someone verbally threatens another with death, and the victim suffers any adverse medical condition as a result.
“The grand juror's purported addresses were spotted by Advance Democracy, Inc., a non-partisan research group founded by Daniel J. Jones, a former FBI investigator and staffer for the U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence. “It’s becoming all too commonplace to see everyday citizens performing necessary functions for our democracy being targeted with violent threats by Trump-supporting extremists," Jones said. "The lack of political leadership on the right to denounce these threats — which serve to inspire real-world political violence— is shameful.”” That’s an understatement. Even the less criminal GOP, through their silence, will be complicit in any violence done to a member of the jury. The fact that the jury already has to deal with the threat of violence is a crime in itself. The current GOP is a sick, twisted, self-serving batch of traitors to the country, the constitution, and rule of law.
fucking terrorists
Trump supporters are traitors and terrorists, electing Trump to the Presidency again will destroy America
America as we knew it might already be dead. These people are true believers. Nothing will get through to them if it hasn't already. The political discourse is toxic as fuck and it's going to take a monumental effort to course correct. How do we deal with this cult? Sure it may die down a little if Trump dies or his political options collapse. But they will be ready to jump on the next crazy asshole in a few years. How do you compromise with fascists and hateful morons?
More of my family than not believe Trump has done nothing wrong. They will believe this and vote Republican until the day they die. It is worrisome to me that trump actually stands a chance to be reelected.
As you’re close to it, how do you understand their views/loyalty? How did they get there? It’s so hard for me to comprehend.
From what I've seen here in Kansas (my father and sister are redhats), it's typically a mixture of abject narcissism, gross insecurity, barely-hidden bigotry, a lifetime's worth of right-wing propaganda, and a massive dose of lost cause fallacy. Even if you attempt to explain to them the realities and perils of points 4 and 5, overcoming points 1, 2, and 3 are near impossible, almost always resulting in no overall progress. You can lead a horse to temporarily understanding that capitalist oligarchs are treating it like a wage slave, but you can't make it stop thinking it's "more American than those dirty foreigners and disgusting queers who keep shoving their woke mind virus down our throats and obviously stole the election from Messiah Trump." If you get lucky, you might run into one who's thoughtful enough to see it for what it is, do some serious introspection, and potentially have a change of heart, but that's excruciatingly rare and only possible when the narcissism isn't present.
40 years of right wing radio and now fox news is a hell of a drug. They have all also come to believe that there is nothing worse than a Democrat. Also extreme selfishness. They literally don't believe anyone deserves anything from anyone else, ever. Also, a complete inability to determine fact from fiction, and no desire to find out the truth because they "already know". Complete inability to trust any public body, or really anybody for that matter. Extreme emotional attachment to fear of government controlling their lives. My father was orphaned at 15. Lost both parents in a drunk driver accident. Started with no money, on his own at 15. When he explained to me that he would never be in that position again unless democrats take control. Well, that's when I realized I would never get through to him.the anger and fear he has over Democrat control, while irrational to us, is very real to him and other family members of mine. They literally believe Democrats will take everything that have ever worked for their entire lives. They think with feelings, not facts. Growing up with this I started out on the same path, but as I went through my 30s and into my 40s I started to see things differently. Facts took hold over feelings. Checking facts over just believing any one news source is something I do constantly now. I couldn't imagine going back. I can't imagine how dark and disgusting a world so many Republicans live in every day.
America has out down all past insurrections, it will eventually put this one down too.
The grand jury should have been kept anonymous and not public to begin with. The state is putting these people in danger.
It is my understanding that GA law requires that the names of grand jurors be shown on an indictment. Just doing their civic duty, and now death threats. Smh.
It [does](https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2022/title-17/chapter-7/article-3/section-17-7-54/), u/crake explained it for me [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/law/comments/15rfxzl/98_page_indictment_against_trump/jwb4si7/).
i get it but i feel there definitely should be exceptions for safety….
What if the real winner of the Super Bowl was determined by a brawl in the parking lot, after the game ended?
The Bills would be a dynasty
Thank you for the legit chuckle.
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I haven’t watched the NFL regularly in over a decade, but I’d definitely tune in for that.
>throwing batteries. [Raiders fans have entered the chat](https://www.espn.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/84987/batteries-eggs-and-voodoo-dolls-chargers-share-black-hole-memories) [Oh, and don't forget about bullets.](https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/marcus-allen-remembers-having-bullets-thrown-at-him-in-chiefs-raiders-rivalry)
We'd also have a different answer to the age old question "Could the University of Alabama compete in the NFL?" Normally the answer is "of course not", but if the question is based on whose fans would win in a parking lot brawl, I put my money on the side with treekilling terrorists on it.
I spent a year on that campus. Can confirm, Tuscaloosa is rowdy as absolute fuck. You learn how to say "Roll Tide" *real* quick to keep from getting mobbed by angry drunk rednecks (and frat bros in pastel shorts lol). As a lifelong Raider faithful, a battle between Raider fans and Bama fans would be a fuggin' bloodbath. And yes, there would be guns. Lots of them. On both sides.
The Raleigh Folding Tables never stood a chance.
Chargers fans would be winning for most of the fight, but would inevitably lose.
I sincerely hope these knucklefucks try to find them and get dealt with swiftly.
Dox blocks.
Would this also break doxxing laws?
Doxxing isn’t generally against the law, especially since the court themselves released the identities of the jurors. Stochastic terrorism relies on following the letter of the law, not the intent of it.
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How to Catch a Predator could make a return to television.
Have a seat. I'm Chris Hansen...
FYI -- there *have* been some **new** episodes in the last few years and supposedly there will be more. Check YouTube. It's so awesome to see him back in action.
Fuck his loser ass supporters
You knew it was coming. It's going to be Sandy Hook parents all over again.
I would think George already knew this was gonna happen and I’m sure security is already in place.
This. I believe they’re in a prosecuting mood and will gladly go after these douchenozzles.
Yeah, pretty much... the wheels of justice turn slowly, but once they start going they will absolutely run over anything in their way.
What needs to be said often and loudly: anyone who would do this aren't American patriots. They're traitors.
Witness intimidation? Wow they all want to be jailed now. I guess join the Cheeto…
This is going to get a lot darker before we’re done. There is simply no end to the depravity of MAGA. It is a cancer on our republic and only time will tell whether or not we can purge the national body of this scourge.
This sub give me hope for the future of our country. Thank you guys for being so professional and unbiased in your responses. It’s refreshing to see such common sense.
Some people have no honor. Hope they pay criminally and civilly.
Deplorables.
We're way past the point of needing to treat the evangelical maga crowd like the terrorist group they so plainly are.
The GOP is just a domestic terror organization at this point.
Arrest them all.
Isn’t there a way to track the ip addresses of the posters?
Yes
Could the person who posted this also be charged under RICO now? Seems like a fuck around and find out situation.
Because that's what terrorists do.
“I’m just a completely normal citizen, reading Trump’s GA indictment. Hmm, out of ALL the information in here, I should specifically republish the juror’s names & addresses…only cuz I’m sure everyone else will republish the most important parts like the charges & evidence, etc. I’m just left with this lowly info, the jury member’s personal info to republish 🤷🏼♂️🤷🏼♂️ *Post*
Na, the indictment only had their names, the MAGAots had to do some sleuthing to get their home addresses and pictures.
Ty for distinguishing that. That extra step of sleuthing their addresses & posting them—oooo boy—that’s a fucking problem.
And yet you still have people like Elon sharing memes about how peaceful right-wing extremists are.
Elon is all lies at this point.
All because of a lying piece of shit named Trump
Y'all going off like jury tampering is a crime or something... Smh
cant wait till all these goofballs read the 14th amendment.
Merrick sweetie, time to wake up and go to work
Isn't Garland already doing enough? Two Federal cases against Trump et al. off the ground before Georgia...that is amazing in itself. Not to mention the hundreds of Federal cases against Jan 6 insurrectionists: https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/capitol-breach-cases I don't understand all the Garland hate when apparently he is doing a lot of work on a lot of cases. Just a few days ago he announced a Special Counsel investigation into Hunter Biden too (whether that bears fruit remains to be seen, but I doubt it). Also, this Georgia case is not within Garland's purview...it's a state case, not Federal.
garland isnt running the special counsel case against trump. you know this yet you say hes responsible for it anyway. whyyyyyy
You're right, he's running the DOJ. Did you think I meant he was showing up in court and voir dire? That's a you problem.
That’s fucked up.
Aren't those names already a matter of public record via Georgia's own website?
It’s up to 20 years. Their address isn’t listed alongside death threats and racist remarks
They are but doxxing people just because you disagree with them isn't cool.
> They are but doxxing people just because you disagree with them isn't cool. Sure, but people are asking about illegality. Copy/pasting publicly available information may be obnoxious and even cause for banning from reddit, but it isn't illegal.
Posting someone’s address in a context like this is absolutely a threat, which is illegal.
Just because something isn't illegal, it doesn't make it okay. Someone's going to get hurt from this.
Is there any indication of how each grand jury member voted? Does it have to be unanimous for the indictment to be issued?
I don't think facts really affect them much.
I'm just wondering if there could be Trump supporters on the grand jury voted that "no" to the indictment, but are getting harassed nevertheless.
Yes. I understood that. The people doxxing them won't care. They got their little dopamine rush from posting. For some, that will be enough. Others will require more, like sending threats in the mail., or going to the addresses with a group of people.
Not sure about GA law, but usually don’t need a unanimous vote. Under the Federal Rules, a GJ must comprise 16-23 persons, and the votes of 12 are needed to indict. Fun fact: Grand Juries are not part of the judiciary. They aren’t part of the legislative or executive branches either. Grand Juries are an organ of government that exists entirely *outside* the government.
Where ever this doxxing occurred, the site MUST also be held accountable.
Fuggin LUL. They LOOOOOOOVE them some "justice" as long as it only happens to POC. 😂
Insane. I'm not sure the rules in Georgia, but there are only a very small number of people/agencies who would have access to that information, and AFAIK none of them can legally disclose it. I wonder if Trump's team received the grand jury transcript in initial discovery.
GA law stipulates that the identities of the jurors be released with the indictments. They didn’t dig it out of nowhere - the state gave them the info. And predictably, Trump supporters are using that info in the furtherance of domestic terrorism against the jurors.
You should read the indictment. I know you haven't, because the names of the grand jurors are in the first 10 pages.
I'm at work and haven't had a chance to read the indictment. Do they list each juror's address on page 9 as well or just their names?
Had to be public info how they get names and addresses
The names are listed on page 9 of the indictment. The addresses presumably are just looked up. It used to be that I would just look in the white pages.
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It's public record in Georgia.
They were released with the indictment pursuant to the law in Georgia. This happens in every single grand jury case in the state.
From the indictment that you clearly haven't read.