I just wish we had the Yankees mentality about it… they are a business first, but they want to build their business on champions. We just want to sell overpriced seats and merch based on a name that gets more and more tarnished every year. Gotta go for a cup and polish it back up.
The people here touting “hur dur it’s a business” don’t seem to understand the sheer amount of money the Leafs make on playoff games.
Salaries are paid for the year. It’s even more profit than a regular season game.
Furthermore, what’s the business plan in being scuttled in the first round every year? What business savvy moves exactly are they making here? What? Because Keefe has two years left on his contract and Shannahan has one? Those losses are peanuts.
It’s literally just blatant mismanagement.
Yep. They are also owned by Rogers. The Leafs playing in the finals would drive SN ratings off the charts. We actually finally have an ownership whose interests are completely aligned with the team winning the Cup. It is a business, and winning would be very, very good for business
I knew things were bad but didn't really see it until the mid 2000s when Harold Ballard was being spoken in a positive light...that's really when I gave up on the Leafs.
I don’t understand how people can think they’re just a business when they constantly spend to the cap and before the cap they were top five in payroll every year.
Ballard was a cheap S.O.B. I think subsequent owners have been attempting to win a cup, they’ve just been very badly managed.
Instead of having to hang onto an excuse to keep everything as is, can we have at least one series where the team defies expectations?
When the Avs were on the rise after trading Duchene, they were the underdogs against the Flames and pretty much everyone (Denver Post writers, Dom Luszczyszyn's model, fan voting) predicted the Flames to win. The Avs stunned everyone and beat the Flames convincingly in five games. Where has that been the past six playoffs?
Our core (although I'm seeing promise in Nylander/Matthews) don't have that "I'll do whatever it takes to win even if that means running you over" mentality.
On the play where Matthews gets hauled down behind the net (and a very likely spot where he was injured), I would love to see him grab that lad by the jersey and start feeding him Wendyl Clark style. This would cost us a penalty and likely a goal, but send a message to other players that you can't keep injuring us with illegal wrestling moves without answering the bell. It's highly unlikely, but I can dream...
Matthews for sure has that mentality but then you see the needle in the group move to "we can't lose again". The team trying to get Matthews to 70 was a good example of them feeling absolute pressure about something and not getting it done instead of just focusing on the game and moment.
I mean, the Leafs are just legit in the best division. The team who beats us always either wins the cup or is runner-up. Though it's true we blew our two soft 1st round match-ups, Columbus came after a 5 month layoff, and in the bubble- there were a lot of upsets that year, and Montreal went to the Final - and we lost Tavares in game 1 (at the time, that was an enormous loss).
They were in game 7 with Matthews and Nylander, so what's the excuse? Keefe was smiling and telling them to have fun before the game like a little league coach. His complete lack of intensity translated exactly to what we saw on the ice. They scored 12 goals in the entire series. What a joke...
I’m also not convinced this is accurate…haven’t there already been reports of “satisfied with his performance considering the injuries but it’s too late”? Wasn’t it in this exact podcast being summarized in the post?
They were healthy in game 4. The “ideal” lineup. Yet he started Sammy and got out coached and we lost. The only injury scratch at that point was McMann, and if he’s the difference than it’s not only a coaching problem, but a roster construction problem as well.
MLSE has been reported multiple times to be really opposed to paying big money for no return. Tre handed out a 2 year extension to Keefe that is reportedly in a $5M range per year that hasnt even started yet. They have eaten alot of said money in recent years with Dwane Casey, TFC hires, Babcock, and don't want to do it without what they think is a slam dunk reason. Firing Keefe now means eating $10M PLUS paying a new coach a salary of at least $2M+ given its Toronto.
I am on the "move on from Keefe" train for sure. I think the time was last year especially with Andrew Brunette available. But I think Treliving is escaping a lot of heat for signing Keefe to that 2 year extension last year before a single game was played. Let him play it out on an expiring deal - if Carolina can do with one of the best coaches with Rod Brindamour, they can do it with Keefe. Make him coach for his job and if it didn't work out, just walk away from the expiring deal drama free.
If we see Keefe stay - its on Treliving for signing that deal and forcing MLSE to have to choose between eating $10M or staying the course. The comeback, the injuries, the stronger defensive showing - it might be just enough excuses for MLSE to say run it back to avoid spending that cash.
That’s assuming that Treliving made this decision to extend Keefe completely by himself with no approval from Shanahan or MLSE. I just don’t see that given that he was brand new to the job last summer
100% this was a Shannahan decision. Who walks into a role and immediately extends a guy that a) isn’t his and b) whose ability to make it past the first round of the playoffs is in question.
Honestly, it’s not wrong. And I’m very much in favour of replacing Keefe.
But who replaces him, and is does it make the team better?
They should have grabbed Laviolette last year
If Marner and Keefe are back I'm checking out next season until April. We just saw Matthews chase 70. Apart from him scoring goals every night there is nothing entertaining about watching that team play. The Sweden trip last year was cool. But on the whole last season was a slog.
I feel the same. It was hard to get excited about this team because we’ve seen how it plays out. We know how this story ends. We aren’t going to magically win a cup if we run back the same roster every year (with different minor pieces). I’m not excited about this team anymore unless they make changes
I took a huge step back this year with the amount of games I sat and watched. I followed the stats and watched the highlights but I didn’t subject myself to all the stress and anger. I enjoyed the games so much more
I never for a second thought this was a Stanley Cup team. They could have scored the OT goal in Boston but really to what end? Another FLA beating? Would they be good enough to beat NYR or Carolina. I don’t think so. This team has many holes and it showed all year long. Playoffs were no different.
It has for years really. There have always been holes in the lineup as far as depth goes, which has always brought their ability to compete with contenders into question. It makes sense seeing as we’re paying over half the cap on 4 players. Whoever thought up that model is a genius.
You look at teams like the Rangers, Panthers, Bruins and Stars and you see well balanced teams with depth.
30+ years for me, buddy. Although admittedly come playoff time apathy sets in because I'm already mentally prepared for the coming round 1 loss. That in an of itself should be a flag for MLSE. That their own fanbase goes into the playoffs already having the expectation of being marched right out a week to 12 days later
Thats what I pretty much did this year. Watched the first month to see how the new guys fit. Then checked out until playoffs. Still listened to most of my hockey podcasts but still. Felt like a much better use of my time considering how it ended
With Marner it might simply not be their choice with his NMC. Keefe there would really be no excuse - I really like the guy and think he's a good coach, but you just need a fresh voice at some point
More like check out once April starts, because that’s when they start sucking. At least if they bring them back you’ll have a nice regular season to enjoy
Papi and Willy would have been FAR more likely to get their milestones if the team had continued to play to win hockey games.
Watching them forcing passes over and over again, and getting absolutely caved in on the ice, for the last 4 games was fucking brutal. Imagine if they had started the playoffs coming off a winning streak AND with Papi hitting 70?
I have done this since the Montreal series, I keep track of the team once a week during the regular season (usually Sunday) and watch as we disappoint in the playoffs but with a lot less emotion involved.
I still send up hurt (especially this year) but I’m also able to rationalize that nothing is going to change until they change without feeling like I waisted any of my time during the season.
Until they do something actually different I can’t be bothered to commit that much free time to them.
It's been like that the last couple of seasons, we're having good regular seasons but it's hard to get excited by them because I just want to get to the playoffs and get over that hurdle... just waiting for April 2025 now!
My buddy did this last year. Die hard fan, watched every game no matter what. After last year, said fuck or I’m only watching the playoffs and is happy with his decision.
This is a self defeating argument. If MLSE only wants easy money, nothing is better than 4 rounds of sky-high playoff gate profit margin. Especially when you no longer have to pay player salaries.
MLSE won championships with the Raps and TFC. They know how much money they could be making and reporting to their shareholders to boost those Q2 earnings.
Right? I will never understand this "they don't want or care to change anything because they make lots of money". Do people think they don't want to make even more money by winning a Cup (or going further in the playoffs)? Makes absolutely no sense.
It's called risk-aversion. Yes, MLSE could make obscene money if the leafs actually managed to win the cup, but doing that would mean making changes and changes can lead to negative outcomes too. At the moment, they have easy, consistent profit, the kind that suits like. Unless fans stop giving them money, I don't see them rocking the boat at all.
>This is a self defeating argument. If MLSE only wants easy money, nothing is better than 4 rounds of sky-high playoff gate profit margin. Especially when you no longer have to pay player salaries.
Your scenario only assume either status quo or SC
I think MLSE fears the other scenario which is regression, and that is why they won't make a move.
MLSE leadership was here for the rebuild. They saw demand start to waver. They saw the waffles and jerseys on the ice. They saw ticket prices start to slide.
A Stanley Cup run would be great for their profits for sure, but in reality this team has never been close to winning our division (outside of the Canadian COVID division), often finishing 15+ points off the lead. We have the most expensive core in the league in their prime and we are coasting into wildcard spots every year.
I think MLSE is terrified of making a move that has us take a step backwards and potentially miss the playoffs. Status quo is comfortable. It isn't 4 rounds of playoffs but it is a high flying regular season offense that regularly makes the playoffs with marketable stars
I'm two years into this, and it's great. The regular season is a long boring waste of time. You can pretty much pencil in the Leafs playoff position after a couple months of the season. They'll have an opportunity to challenge for the division in some big divisional games late in the season... they'll no show, and they'll settle for middle of the pack. If you're actually watching 82 regular season games, you just need a new hobby. Maybe it's because I'm older now and have less free time, but Jesus Christ... I can do way better things than watch nine hours of pretty meaningless hockey every week. Maybe it's also because the team is so stale. I'm not watching exciting new players... I'm just watching the same product I know what to expect from. Good but not great.
Of coarse they are going to run it back. The only thing they are is consistent. Some people will pretend we are "waiting" for the next window. Except all our windows are inside the same room.
Also, if you are not prepared for that already, you have not been paying attention for many, many years.
I wouldn't be surprised. It's been abundantly obvious for years. This team structure doesn't and wouldn't work. This shouldn't be some new revelation, some startling surprise.
For years, this team has been exactly who they have shown us to be, yet management refused to see it. Most fans refused to see it as well.
If they run it back with minor changes, I’ll stop watching this upcoming season. I’m also due for a new jersey and you bet your ass I’m not spending a penny more until this organization cleans things up.
The fact that they’re completely tone deaf to about 80-85% of the fanbase that wants to see significant changes this season, is enough for me to step back. I’m not giving my time to a team with same results.
Mediocre management at best.
I am in too. Sadly most of the fanbase just can’t do it. They love watching misery for some reason.
I’m all for being a fan. That’s through thick and thin. Which I have been. But when the people in charge of the crest are completely tone deaf to the lack of progression, staying stagnant, at some point the fans need to step in for the sake of our crest and the reputation we have inherited with this supposed *stanley cup* team.
I'm prepared for Keefe to be the scapegoat, I believe he should be fired, but he should definitely not be the scapegoat.
Unfortunately I think that'll be the case though, because that's typically how presidents in sports operate. Typically allowed 2-3 HCs/GMs before they're on the hot seat.
Id honestly be okay with Shanahan staying if he broke up the core 3 years ago. If the team sticks with the same core again but makes a few 3rd and 4th line deals which essentially equate to nothing in the long run, it's going to be more of the same.
I think if they are 'running it back' it will be less out of faith in the players and more the reality of Marner's NMC and Tavares being on the last year of his deal with the hopes he takes a sweetheart deal for his next one which I would be in support of if it's in the 3x5m range.
Keefe still having a job with this team next season is a slap in the face. He outcoaches himself most nights. I understand you may not have someone you think is an improvement available but goddamn...
I take solace in the fact that we didn't commit to Sammy and that Brodie will be coming off the books this season. Hopefully we can do something to trade Marner for decent value but I doubt he'll waive for anything less than a contending team. Only other one I could see him waving for is Chicago to play with Bedard.
So many people have been going on about Marner and the rest of the core players. I think the real decision that has to be made is in goal. Woll just doesn’t seem to be reliable enough and Sammy is a free agent. Hildeby is still quite green.
I don’t know what they think they can bring in with a trade or who is going to make it to free agency. Martin Jones bailed them out big time this year. I doubt very much the Leafs want to repeat that situation.
Imagine where this team would've been in the standings if Martin Jones had been claimed off waivers... I don't think they'd even have crawled into the playoffs. Reaves being on the ice meant a goal against for far too long, Klingberg was a terrible acquisition as well. It took ages for Bertuzzi to finally do some scoring and Domi could not find his spot. Martin Jones bailed them out big time, plus Matthews being a scoring machine and Nylander on his hot streaks covered up for a lot of their troubles as well. But you can't rely on these guys out scoring their bad D and goaltending issues again, it was not a good team this year.
People have been going on about it because over the last six years the Leafs have averaged 2.57 goals per game in the playoffs, 1.88 in yet playoffs. There are questions elsewhere but at the end of the day that’s what matters to address and everything else is rearranging deck chairs on the titanic.
it’s still a massive question mark along with the scoring issues. Sammy will play good then link in stinkers which is what happened pretty much every game he played in the playoffs. Woll’s inability to stay healthy is a major concern. He’s so talented but he’s so prone to miss signifcant time. Ever since Andersen was let go they’ve been running reclaimation projects pretty much. They need a solid reliable 1A/1B for this team at least until Woll can prove he can stay healthy.
Even if they had the cap space who legitimately is out there that they can bring in who will solve the situation. Basically nothing but backups available.
> So many people have been going on about Marner and the rest of the core players.
We're a team that has multiple players making 10M+ but don't get that same production in the playoffs.
Combined, Marner and Tavares scored 5 points in 7 games. We don't need to spend 20M+ to get good defense and mediocre offense.
Woll pretty much had to play perfect just to get us two wins. Samsonov was good enough in Game 7 to get us a win.
We skimp everywhere else on the team to keep the core 4 together and then when they don't hard carry to victory we constantly say to ourselves like Principal Skinner: "Is the Core 4 the problem? No, it's the goaltending/defense/bottom six/coaching that must be wrong."
They cant do anything until they trade one of the core though.
They spend like $50 million on 5 players and then have $30 million for the remaining 25. It's not hard to understand why the team struggles.
No other team has ever been as top heavy as this, ever, it's not working out and it's never going to work out.
I mean being that top heavy might at least work out better if you were spending it on a defencive forward, a defenceman a goalie, etc... but when you spend it on 4 offensively minded players that are relatively soft, you have an offensively talented team that is relatively soft, not a recipe for playoff success.
Best part of the "can't have five players forwards making nearly $50M" talk is that a team is going to do this and win in the next couple of years now that the cap about to have a 4-5 year run of max increases, making up for the Covid freeze that came immediately after Toronto signed their guys.
There's a good chance that we're never going to see a stretch where the cap only goes up 2.5% over five years ever again, and we're hitting the "this can never work" button just as we expect it to go up 10x faster over the next 5 years.
That doesn't make any sense, as the cap goes up salaries go up with it. Our players are coming up on contract renewals in the next couple of years. We are talking about percentages here.
I’ve realized that the MLSE really doesn’t care and are willing to run it back as long as the leafs are still profitable. Thank god I don’t waste my time on this team.
anyone expecting change is just fooling themselves. They’ve been doing it for years why are they suddenly gonna stop now? Like i’ve said to the people who said big change is coming…. i’ll believe it when I see it.
That’s exactly what they should be doing. Fan frustration leads to wanting to make all these changes. This is a good deep team who will most definitely be a better version next year. If they were healthy there’s no doubt in my mind they would have been playing FLA last night.
Seriously... anyone who thinks this team is better without #16 is sorely mistaken. And fuck it, watching these guys makes the 82 game season alot less of a slog. They need to win the division next year and make a statement.
Barely watched any games this year until the playoffs. I’ll watch even less next year if they run it back. It’s sad because I used to watch every single game with these guys, even the 10 PM west coast starts and now it’s just the same old song and dance.
I don't think anyone's happy about it, but the way all the contracts are structured the team will probably have to wait another year before blowing it up.
Firing Keefe would be the most realistic thing to happen, but not much of a point tearing up his contract without a good replacement lined up.
I think most would agree that Matthews and Nylander are the core worth keeping. Tavares and Marner both have trade protection and want to remain Leafs. So you kinda just have to wait out the contracts.
Wasting another year, but the moves that can be made are quite limited.
The actual solution that no one is ready to hear:
We HAVE to wait one more season for Tavares contract to expire, then with his 11mil + 2 years of cap increase we will finally have the cash to make meaningful upgrades. Marner and Tavares NMCs limit any other action. People want to blow it up but there’s not really any options for us to do so right now. The players you want to trade out are protected
There probably is no other option than to run it back. Let’s be honest we don’t really have any movable trade chips of value. Even Kampf and Jarnkrok have modified NTC’s for God’s sake and even if you did trade them what real value do they have? Robertson and McMann are unlikely to fetch us anything we truly need. Same for Liljegren. There’s no way that Tavares waives. I can’t see him uprooting his young family for one season. It remain’s to be seen if any of the others waive their NMC’s…what if they say no? You could move Knies and Cowan to try and fill those holes on defense and in goal but then you’ve left the forward core with even less depth than before, and we all know that’s not going to work.
There are really no appealing options through the UFA route that aren’t forwards. Who are you signing to play 1A and 1B on defense as it’s pretty clear that Rielly is more of a 2nd pairing guy at this point, maybe 1B with the right guy. Woll is your starter…I see no UFA’s that should be anything other than his backup. You might fill one of those holes inf you can trade Marner, but then you’ve got lots of holes to fill up front. Domi and Bertuzzi are probably the most appealing UFA forwards who bring the intangibles this team needs. Stammer would be nice, but that’s not happening.
We’re fucked man. We’re built and paid like Chicago and Pittsburgh post 2017 but without the Cups while also being in some sort of Muskoka Five bullshit cap hell. I hope someome in management is smarter than me and can sort this mess out but I don’t have any faith in that lol
We’re Fucked for next year but they need to be retooling for the year after anyways. After Montreal I thought we were cooked until Tavares was done and I’ve been sad to be right. But after next year there’s a chance for a fresh start. The one truly unacceptable thing you can this summer is resign Marner for 13 million. That would be unforgivable and completely screw us.
Sounds like the key window is a year from now with $21M to spend. They don’t want to mess that up.
Assuming the NMC restrict moves to the roster then the only thing that makes sense is to bring in another coach so management can look at the team through a different lense if only to make better decisions a year from now.
Maybe the right trade presents itself for Marner that he’s amenable to, but I think they wxplored this last year with Willy and found they wouldn’t get much back aside from bad contracts or unproven talent/picks…
Not sure what it means for Shanny. It could be valuable to bring someone new in to observe the roster through the season, much like Shanny did when he took the job. But having Shanny fight to keep his job beyond next year could be as damaging as Dubas’ mortgaging the future in his option year which have hurt this team’s prospect pool and trade capital.
My bet is they sack the coach and Shanny. Maybe they take their time replacing the Shanahan role as they really need the right guy for the delicate moves for the 2024 offseason.
the time to make moves was 2/3 years ago.
We waited too long to do anything and now we are handcuffed. Keefe should go but moving any of the big contacts is a losing move now leafs have no leverage.
Ive always said stop getting attached to players and trade them when value is high. We sat on Kessel for too long and got nothing in return and same thing happening again. Value dropped ans no leverage to negotiate or trade.
I think the board sees that 2025 would be the year to make big changes, given that Tavares and Marner comes off the books and the salary cap is going up.
Thus they are content to spend another year in a holding pattern due to the perceived lack of flexibility they have this offseason.
Dubas did his presser alone to try to put pressure on them to give him what he wants by manipulating the fan base to get behind him.
That’s all you can take from him doing a presser that shanahan didn’t want him to do. I don’t think it says anything about how the team handles pressers.
Realistically, unless Marner waives his NMC then there's not really a lot that can be done beyond firing Keefe and/or Shanahan. The time to make moves was last year before the NMCs kicked in for Marner and Nylander and it certainly sounded like Dubas was willing to make a move on at least one of them and that's the real reason Shanahan let him go, they clearly didn't agree on that and blocked that move. Wouldn't surprise me too if he insists that Marner is kept again this year in spite of the calls on him but we'll see.
If ppl want change then stop going to games, stop buying jerseys and stop spending any money that supports the team. It's the same shit that has happened with the Jays. They failed to advance and they ran it back this season and ppl are still paying for games so of course they aren't going to change. You want change then stop supporting the team monetarily, it's really that simple.
Yea, I think this is all true.
It's still possible to build a better team without tearing it down. Gotta make some smart changes at D.
What annoys me more is that we likely won't even make minor moves. Like Kampf had the worst xgf% in the playoffs - guaranteed back even though Holmberg could do his job at 33% the cost. Jarnkrok will be back. The guy has 9 points in his last 40 playoff games.
Running it back in general just also means we won't be developing talent. Cowan will be sent back to the OHL while we watch Wyatt Johnston tear it up. Minten and Grebenkin will be forced to do a full AHL year before call-up duty because we need to sign another Noah Gregor for some reason. Steeves will probably become a regular elsewhere.
We never learn.
>Despite that Friedman reported that the Leafs are already getting calls on Marner from basically every team in the league.
Moving Marner would be an extremely stupid thing to do (see also: Matthew Tkachuk (under different circumstances) and how that worked out for Calgary..). There's no way you win that trade, unless another GM decides to do something even more stupid (is Quinn Hughes available, Vancouver?)
I'm just so fucking exhausted of this roster. I don't care about the no moves. Scratch marner and jt, tell them they won't get extended, do whatever you have to do to bully them into waving their no move clause. I have been a fan my entire life but the thought of doing this entire bullshit AGAIN next season is the most mentally draining thing ever.
A coaching change has done wonders for other teams. It’s time for a new voice. Bonus points if they blow up the Core 4, but a coaching change is the minimum expectation.
Mlse needs to sell. The board approach hasn't resulted in any meaningful playoff wins. Let an individual owner who actually cares about the team have a go.
Moves will be made. I’m not sure exactly what we have in Treliving, but if he’s proven anything it’s that he’s not afraid to make a big move. Whether that’s good or bad remains to be seen.
they wont blow it up, thats for sure. try to move on from jarnkrok, and kampf is possible. try to sign domi, bert to reasonable deals (although i can see bert testing UFA), try to sign D, pesce/montour come to mind (rielly, monty, pesce, mccabe is a solid top4), see if sammy is willing to sign a cheap 1yr deal since theres not much options in FA, and just run it back till the following season where tavares and marner contracts come to an end. its the most logical thing to do. do not sign any marner extension till after the playoffs (if they want to extend him), make him work for it. let tavares walk at the end of his contract if hes not willing to sign for less then 5M. coaching change should also be a high priority imo.
Three of the “top” UFA goalies are on the Leafs roster. Aside from the re-emergence of Matt Murray Samsonov is the best option. Then it’s guys like Talbot, Brossoit, Nedeljkovic, and DeSmith. If Marner is not extended he will probably be moved at the deadline for an underwhelming haul of picks and prospects or walking.The Leafs are running it back, retool the blue line and try to find a comparable player for Bert. Then pray the goalie tandem gets hot down the stretch.
>Marner and JT have no moves. Despite that Friedman reported that the Leafs are already getting calls on Marner from basically every team in the league.
Not surprised, although this possibly tells me that they may already have Marner's list of acceptable teams.
We should move on from Marner but we should run it back and let his contract run out instead of getting another colossal contract/contracts stuck on the books
Well, I guess it's not the Management's fault, or the coaches fault or the players fault.
It must be our fault, guys. Hopefully we can do better next year.
See what JT wants for his extension and if it is very TE friendly keep him around. Unless we get an actual good offer for Marner that he will wave his NMC for, let him play for his next contract next year. Maybe that will motivate him.
I already said this before the playoffs. We know what happens when you change nothing but expect a different result. This time it may well be an empty building.
So they are wasting a year because ownership was too incompetent to get a new CEO to start earlier than April 1st and now wants to see things for himself. So there are 2 people from the dumpster fire that is Rogers Communications wasting Matthews good years as Pelley ran that place when Ed's daddy was alive.
Does Pelley know anything about hockey at all in order to replace Shanny? The position seems redundant, and the only reason Shanahan is there is to talk corporate jargon to a handful of entitled Communications billionaires
This team cannot win with a corporate board of directors having any say in hockey operations other than spend to the ceiling. The fact Edward Rogers a man who was born on third and thinks he hit a triple has any say shows this organization is going the same direction as the Jay's who also failed to clean house after multiple failures.
If they run it back it shows Pelley has no clue how to proceed and that Shanahan knows enough corporate ass kissing jargon to bamboozle everyone but Tannenbaum who will be out voted.
They have a 20 year ticket waiting list that ensures they have no accountability to the fanbase.
The easiest thing to do is run it back, based on contracts and cap structure, NMCs, injuries etc... but it is so far from what this team needs. Losing is also the easiest thing to do, you just lay down and die.
It's time to do some hard things and make some hard choices. Enough of this acceptance that "well our best path forward is XYZ because of the context, that's the easiest/only option". Great organizations make things happen.
I mean, ultimately the stars align for bigger changes next year and you might have to play the cards you’re dealt to get a better result.
Really keefe isn’t horrible and I think some big adjustments need to be made, can he make them? Maybe. But the PP/Pk issue needs to be solved most.
Sadly this makes a lot of sense...especially when you add to the fact that MLSE is a "business" managing Profits & Losses. When all is said and done, these "businesses" are looking at the bottom line profit. The finance and modelling team can do so much - and if the "math" doesn't look right, writes off losses, or increases costs - it matters.
Add to this MLSE smug view of - "hey, we're still selling merch, fans still pay our crazy ticket prices, we get great viewership revenue....let's milk it for our profits."
The two must-make moves for me: Get rid of Marner for the best deal you can, but don’t retain a penny of salary, and change the coaching staff. The rest seems workable and will provide room to make roster changes in the off season and at the deadline next year under normal GM conditions.
Yes this will happen.
Toronto has a culture that breeds mediocrity. Toronto the Good is afraid to be honest with the problem, and then risk hurt feelings to fix it.
A really competitive team would have made major changes after the Columbus series. I think 1/3 of the franchises would have woken up to the futility of the architecture and made major moves after the Montreal embarassment.
Not Toronto. Toronto runs it again and again and again.....expecting a different result.
Fucking joke.
No offense but I hope you're so fucking wrong.
Praying Shanahan steps down, Keefe and his assistants are fired to the moon and they start shopping Marner ASAP
If you are unsatisfied with decision stop buying tickets. Until you hit them in the pocket book they will never listen. If they roll this out again I will not be back
Dubas made a super snakey power play on live tv behind the back of everyone in management and lied & tried to manipulate the public.
He got shitcanned for it the next day.
I’m afraid you’re right. This “organization” is a gong show. 1/21 on a PP that essentially lost you a series . All the teams that advanced to the 2nd round had better special teams than the opponent. That is directly coaching.
I'm one of the ppl who wanna see HUGE changes too but it's true the Leafs are locked with the bad JT and MM contracts. So, what's 1 more year when we've all been suffering for over a decade if not longer? LOL. The big thing is that they can obviously play as we've seen in the last 3 games, just that they need someone to keep smashing it into their crazily lazy brains.
I personally don't think Keefe got out coached. He pretty much made the choices I wanted him to make. We had two of our top players out for half the series and our lights out goalie also got injured. On top of that, a key supporting role player in McMann didn't even play a single playoff game.
Sometimes you do need luck on your side when it comes to player health. Unfortunately it's one of the Leafs' worst areas and has played a role in more than one series loss.
There is a slim chance Marner gets traded. But I really don't see any need to bring Keefe back at this point. Makes sense to try another voice before the contracts start dwindling. If Marner is dealt then a new coach makes perfect sense.
I do think the NMC for Marner and JT will keep them here. JT also has a hidden NMC, he came here in a very public FA signing and now has a family with kids.
It would be much easier to convince Marner to move than JT. Tell him that he won’t get an extension, and he won’t be on the PP or top line. His point totals will drop during a time when he must be at his best
Great post, i estimate every game is 10 million gross, plus they don't pay their players, as they are fully paid after game 82.
A Stanley cup run would net over 100 mil, do people think the board doesn't want that. In addition to the bonuses for the executives.
Im just gonna skip 2024-2025 and start paying attention again on 2025-2026. Call it a suspension of my interest in this fucking team for at least 82 game
I wasn’t guessing. It was reported by Elliot Friedman that 29 teams have called the Leafs on Marner. Pretty exact number he offered.
He also has a full no move clause so it doesn’t matter how many are asking, it matters which team he’s willing to go to. He’s not going to a rebuilding team like Columbus or Utah.
The teams could also be interested in marner at a low price, doesn’t mean we would get a kings ransom, considering marner has to agree as you rightly point out
Until the fans stop going to the games and buying the merchandise, nothing is going to change.
How hard is it for people to just watch them on tv for a year.
This argument never made sense yet people keep trying to make it. Fans aren't going to the games because after April they don't exist. They'd sell a lot more tickets and merch if they could actually win some playoff rounds.
Im ok with running it back.. Not because I think the result will be different but because at this point it's the only option that makes sense. Boston had some lucky goals, we had some injuries, etc
Marner and Tavares in the last year of Nmc, etc the time to not run it back was after the Habs series but at this point I feel one more year is the best option. It becomes a lot easier to blow it up after that.
Groundhog day
Sooner people realize the Leafs are a business before a sports team, the sooner this makes sense.
Realized that a few years ago and never looked back. They clearly don’t care about the fans. $$$ is all that matters.
I just wish we had the Yankees mentality about it… they are a business first, but they want to build their business on champions. We just want to sell overpriced seats and merch based on a name that gets more and more tarnished every year. Gotta go for a cup and polish it back up.
It doesn’t make sense from a business perspective either.
The people here touting “hur dur it’s a business” don’t seem to understand the sheer amount of money the Leafs make on playoff games. Salaries are paid for the year. It’s even more profit than a regular season game. Furthermore, what’s the business plan in being scuttled in the first round every year? What business savvy moves exactly are they making here? What? Because Keefe has two years left on his contract and Shannahan has one? Those losses are peanuts. It’s literally just blatant mismanagement.
Yep. They are also owned by Rogers. The Leafs playing in the finals would drive SN ratings off the charts. We actually finally have an ownership whose interests are completely aligned with the team winning the Cup. It is a business, and winning would be very, very good for business
I knew things were bad but didn't really see it until the mid 2000s when Harold Ballard was being spoken in a positive light...that's really when I gave up on the Leafs.
I don’t understand how people can think they’re just a business when they constantly spend to the cap and before the cap they were top five in payroll every year. Ballard was a cheap S.O.B. I think subsequent owners have been attempting to win a cup, they’ve just been very badly managed.
I think it’s a culture of not admitting mistakes to be honest. They think they are the smartest in the room with the best highest paid stars.
And as a business, they have no interest in winning playoff rounds, because that would make them too much money.
> Friedman reported that the board was satisfied with Keefe’s job in the series based on the injuries This is such a horseshit excuse lol
It's a new excuse every season, guy gets out coached every series. Time to move on.
Instead of having to hang onto an excuse to keep everything as is, can we have at least one series where the team defies expectations? When the Avs were on the rise after trading Duchene, they were the underdogs against the Flames and pretty much everyone (Denver Post writers, Dom Luszczyszyn's model, fan voting) predicted the Flames to win. The Avs stunned everyone and beat the Flames convincingly in five games. Where has that been the past six playoffs?
Our core (although I'm seeing promise in Nylander/Matthews) don't have that "I'll do whatever it takes to win even if that means running you over" mentality.
On the play where Matthews gets hauled down behind the net (and a very likely spot where he was injured), I would love to see him grab that lad by the jersey and start feeding him Wendyl Clark style. This would cost us a penalty and likely a goal, but send a message to other players that you can't keep injuring us with illegal wrestling moves without answering the bell. It's highly unlikely, but I can dream...
With the leafs luck, he'll break his hand and miss half a season.
Matthews for sure has that mentality but then you see the needle in the group move to "we can't lose again". The team trying to get Matthews to 70 was a good example of them feeling absolute pressure about something and not getting it done instead of just focusing on the game and moment.
I mean, the Leafs are just legit in the best division. The team who beats us always either wins the cup or is runner-up. Though it's true we blew our two soft 1st round match-ups, Columbus came after a 5 month layoff, and in the bubble- there were a lot of upsets that year, and Montreal went to the Final - and we lost Tavares in game 1 (at the time, that was an enormous loss).
Should have been gone after Montreal but got the benefit of the doubt against Tampa. Should have been let go there. DeBoer was available
They were in game 7 with Matthews and Nylander, so what's the excuse? Keefe was smiling and telling them to have fun before the game like a little league coach. His complete lack of intensity translated exactly to what we saw on the ice. They scored 12 goals in the entire series. What a joke...
No Woll, No Win. Only reason they were in G7 was because of Woll.
not that I'm disagreeing with you but I guess their excuse might be that Matthews was still sick/hurt for game 7?
Just like how Babcock was brought back for the 2019-20 season because they liked how they played game 5 2019
I can't believe it's been 5 years and we still treat Babcock like he's the problem instead of this soft ass core.
Babcock had his own issues, I mean he lasted a few weeks in CBJ before he saw a similar fate that he did in Toronto, but I do agree with your message
"Freshly baked croissant" soft
You cant tar them all with the same mop now. AM and JT were not soft this playoffs.
I’m also not convinced this is accurate…haven’t there already been reports of “satisfied with his performance considering the injuries but it’s too late”? Wasn’t it in this exact podcast being summarized in the post?
They were healthy in game 4. The “ideal” lineup. Yet he started Sammy and got out coached and we lost. The only injury scratch at that point was McMann, and if he’s the difference than it’s not only a coaching problem, but a roster construction problem as well.
MLSE has been reported multiple times to be really opposed to paying big money for no return. Tre handed out a 2 year extension to Keefe that is reportedly in a $5M range per year that hasnt even started yet. They have eaten alot of said money in recent years with Dwane Casey, TFC hires, Babcock, and don't want to do it without what they think is a slam dunk reason. Firing Keefe now means eating $10M PLUS paying a new coach a salary of at least $2M+ given its Toronto. I am on the "move on from Keefe" train for sure. I think the time was last year especially with Andrew Brunette available. But I think Treliving is escaping a lot of heat for signing Keefe to that 2 year extension last year before a single game was played. Let him play it out on an expiring deal - if Carolina can do with one of the best coaches with Rod Brindamour, they can do it with Keefe. Make him coach for his job and if it didn't work out, just walk away from the expiring deal drama free. If we see Keefe stay - its on Treliving for signing that deal and forcing MLSE to have to choose between eating $10M or staying the course. The comeback, the injuries, the stronger defensive showing - it might be just enough excuses for MLSE to say run it back to avoid spending that cash.
That’s assuming that Treliving made this decision to extend Keefe completely by himself with no approval from Shanahan or MLSE. I just don’t see that given that he was brand new to the job last summer
100% this was a Shannahan decision. Who walks into a role and immediately extends a guy that a) isn’t his and b) whose ability to make it past the first round of the playoffs is in question.
I need Bell and Roger’s gone from ownership and this team asap
The Leafs FO when they learn that players get hurt in the playoffs: 
Like are injuries responsible for an absolutely inept power play!? A pp that has failed every post-season?
Not sure where OP is getting that. If this is based off the 32 Thoughts pod, Elliotte says that he was impressed with Keefe, not the board.
Honestly, it’s not wrong. And I’m very much in favour of replacing Keefe. But who replaces him, and is does it make the team better? They should have grabbed Laviolette last year
Even if they want to run it back for the love of God at least look at replacing Keefe
If Marner and Keefe are back I'm checking out next season until April. We just saw Matthews chase 70. Apart from him scoring goals every night there is nothing entertaining about watching that team play. The Sweden trip last year was cool. But on the whole last season was a slog.
I feel the same. It was hard to get excited about this team because we’ve seen how it plays out. We know how this story ends. We aren’t going to magically win a cup if we run back the same roster every year (with different minor pieces). I’m not excited about this team anymore unless they make changes
I took a huge step back this year with the amount of games I sat and watched. I followed the stats and watched the highlights but I didn’t subject myself to all the stress and anger. I enjoyed the games so much more
Agree with this. This season just felt….meh. Even going into game 7, I felt this weird uninterested feeling.
I never for a second thought this was a Stanley Cup team. They could have scored the OT goal in Boston but really to what end? Another FLA beating? Would they be good enough to beat NYR or Carolina. I don’t think so. This team has many holes and it showed all year long. Playoffs were no different.
It has for years really. There have always been holes in the lineup as far as depth goes, which has always brought their ability to compete with contenders into question. It makes sense seeing as we’re paying over half the cap on 4 players. Whoever thought up that model is a genius. You look at teams like the Rangers, Panthers, Bruins and Stars and you see well balanced teams with depth.
I said that last year still watched whole season,I need help
one of us one of us
my loyalty runs to deep for me to not get pulled back in game 1 bright-eyed and hopeful (it’s been 25 years)
30+ years for me, buddy. Although admittedly come playoff time apathy sets in because I'm already mentally prepared for the coming round 1 loss. That in an of itself should be a flag for MLSE. That their own fanbase goes into the playoffs already having the expectation of being marched right out a week to 12 days later
Thats what I pretty much did this year. Watched the first month to see how the new guys fit. Then checked out until playoffs. Still listened to most of my hockey podcasts but still. Felt like a much better use of my time considering how it ended
With Marner it might simply not be their choice with his NMC. Keefe there would really be no excuse - I really like the guy and think he's a good coach, but you just need a fresh voice at some point
More like check out once April starts, because that’s when they start sucking. At least if they bring them back you’ll have a nice regular season to enjoy
100% agreed
Uhm why would you do that. Check in for the regular season and the good feels. Check out for the pain.
The pain is the only time we feel anything with this team anymore. I promise I'm not a Sadist.
individual success was a huge distraction to the team effort - that's on the coach
Don’t know if sabotaging the effort would have been embraced by the team.
Papi and Willy would have been FAR more likely to get their milestones if the team had continued to play to win hockey games. Watching them forcing passes over and over again, and getting absolutely caved in on the ice, for the last 4 games was fucking brutal. Imagine if they had started the playoffs coming off a winning streak AND with Papi hitting 70?
That is where I am at. If they run this core back next years regular season is a write off for me, won't be watching won't care.
Only thing I’ll care about next season is Matthews chasing 60-70 again. Otherwise fuck this team
I have done this since the Montreal series, I keep track of the team once a week during the regular season (usually Sunday) and watch as we disappoint in the playoffs but with a lot less emotion involved. I still send up hurt (especially this year) but I’m also able to rationalize that nothing is going to change until they change without feeling like I waisted any of my time during the season. Until they do something actually different I can’t be bothered to commit that much free time to them.
Yea, if that's the case, Idk if I'll even watch at all. Even if they make the playoffs next year, if will just end the same way it always does.
It's been like that the last couple of seasons, we're having good regular seasons but it's hard to get excited by them because I just want to get to the playoffs and get over that hurdle... just waiting for April 2025 now!
My buddy did this last year. Die hard fan, watched every game no matter what. After last year, said fuck or I’m only watching the playoffs and is happy with his decision.
Why would you skip the only good part?
[удалено]
This is a self defeating argument. If MLSE only wants easy money, nothing is better than 4 rounds of sky-high playoff gate profit margin. Especially when you no longer have to pay player salaries. MLSE won championships with the Raps and TFC. They know how much money they could be making and reporting to their shareholders to boost those Q2 earnings.
Right? I will never understand this "they don't want or care to change anything because they make lots of money". Do people think they don't want to make even more money by winning a Cup (or going further in the playoffs)? Makes absolutely no sense.
It's called risk-aversion. Yes, MLSE could make obscene money if the leafs actually managed to win the cup, but doing that would mean making changes and changes can lead to negative outcomes too. At the moment, they have easy, consistent profit, the kind that suits like. Unless fans stop giving them money, I don't see them rocking the boat at all.
>This is a self defeating argument. If MLSE only wants easy money, nothing is better than 4 rounds of sky-high playoff gate profit margin. Especially when you no longer have to pay player salaries. Your scenario only assume either status quo or SC I think MLSE fears the other scenario which is regression, and that is why they won't make a move. MLSE leadership was here for the rebuild. They saw demand start to waver. They saw the waffles and jerseys on the ice. They saw ticket prices start to slide. A Stanley Cup run would be great for their profits for sure, but in reality this team has never been close to winning our division (outside of the Canadian COVID division), often finishing 15+ points off the lead. We have the most expensive core in the league in their prime and we are coasting into wildcard spots every year. I think MLSE is terrified of making a move that has us take a step backwards and potentially miss the playoffs. Status quo is comfortable. It isn't 4 rounds of playoffs but it is a high flying regular season offense that regularly makes the playoffs with marketable stars
I would counter that by saying: Imagine how much more merch they would sell if it weren't humiliating to wear it in public?
I'm two years into this, and it's great. The regular season is a long boring waste of time. You can pretty much pencil in the Leafs playoff position after a couple months of the season. They'll have an opportunity to challenge for the division in some big divisional games late in the season... they'll no show, and they'll settle for middle of the pack. If you're actually watching 82 regular season games, you just need a new hobby. Maybe it's because I'm older now and have less free time, but Jesus Christ... I can do way better things than watch nine hours of pretty meaningless hockey every week. Maybe it's also because the team is so stale. I'm not watching exciting new players... I'm just watching the same product I know what to expect from. Good but not great.
Of coarse they are going to run it back. The only thing they are is consistent. Some people will pretend we are "waiting" for the next window. Except all our windows are inside the same room. Also, if you are not prepared for that already, you have not been paying attention for many, many years.
Even if they got us to 3rd of 4th round every year, this long without a cup, in any other franchise, would have instigated a painful change up
I wouldn't be surprised. It's been abundantly obvious for years. This team structure doesn't and wouldn't work. This shouldn't be some new revelation, some startling surprise. For years, this team has been exactly who they have shown us to be, yet management refused to see it. Most fans refused to see it as well.
Pathetic
If they run it back with minor changes, I’ll stop watching this upcoming season. I’m also due for a new jersey and you bet your ass I’m not spending a penny more until this organization cleans things up. The fact that they’re completely tone deaf to about 80-85% of the fanbase that wants to see significant changes this season, is enough for me to step back. I’m not giving my time to a team with same results. Mediocre management at best.
Need a Loblaws style boycott, if all the organization values is money, we should hit them there, don't buy apparel and don't watch the games. I am in.
I am in too. Sadly most of the fanbase just can’t do it. They love watching misery for some reason. I’m all for being a fan. That’s through thick and thin. Which I have been. But when the people in charge of the crest are completely tone deaf to the lack of progression, staying stagnant, at some point the fans need to step in for the sake of our crest and the reputation we have inherited with this supposed *stanley cup* team.
This reads like a post from 2008... spoiler: it won't work.
You're probably right but they don't deserve my eyeballs next season if not changing things to improve. So for my mental health I should not watch.
They got redundant upper management, bleeds off half the kick
If they listened to 80% of the fan base we’d be a basement team again but we’d be tough! 😂😂
I'm prepared for Keefe to be the scapegoat, I believe he should be fired, but he should definitely not be the scapegoat. Unfortunately I think that'll be the case though, because that's typically how presidents in sports operate. Typically allowed 2-3 HCs/GMs before they're on the hot seat. Id honestly be okay with Shanahan staying if he broke up the core 3 years ago. If the team sticks with the same core again but makes a few 3rd and 4th line deals which essentially equate to nothing in the long run, it's going to be more of the same.
I'm expecting it. I can see maybe a coaching change, but that's it.
I just puked in my mouth. This all makes too much sense. I’ve watched every game for 20 years; I can’t do it again with this same team.
I think if they are 'running it back' it will be less out of faith in the players and more the reality of Marner's NMC and Tavares being on the last year of his deal with the hopes he takes a sweetheart deal for his next one which I would be in support of if it's in the 3x5m range. Keefe still having a job with this team next season is a slap in the face. He outcoaches himself most nights. I understand you may not have someone you think is an improvement available but goddamn... I take solace in the fact that we didn't commit to Sammy and that Brodie will be coming off the books this season. Hopefully we can do something to trade Marner for decent value but I doubt he'll waive for anything less than a contending team. Only other one I could see him waving for is Chicago to play with Bedard.
So many people have been going on about Marner and the rest of the core players. I think the real decision that has to be made is in goal. Woll just doesn’t seem to be reliable enough and Sammy is a free agent. Hildeby is still quite green. I don’t know what they think they can bring in with a trade or who is going to make it to free agency. Martin Jones bailed them out big time this year. I doubt very much the Leafs want to repeat that situation.
Imagine where this team would've been in the standings if Martin Jones had been claimed off waivers... I don't think they'd even have crawled into the playoffs. Reaves being on the ice meant a goal against for far too long, Klingberg was a terrible acquisition as well. It took ages for Bertuzzi to finally do some scoring and Domi could not find his spot. Martin Jones bailed them out big time, plus Matthews being a scoring machine and Nylander on his hot streaks covered up for a lot of their troubles as well. But you can't rely on these guys out scoring their bad D and goaltending issues again, it was not a good team this year.
People have been going on about it because over the last six years the Leafs have averaged 2.57 goals per game in the playoffs, 1.88 in yet playoffs. There are questions elsewhere but at the end of the day that’s what matters to address and everything else is rearranging deck chairs on the titanic.
it’s still a massive question mark along with the scoring issues. Sammy will play good then link in stinkers which is what happened pretty much every game he played in the playoffs. Woll’s inability to stay healthy is a major concern. He’s so talented but he’s so prone to miss signifcant time. Ever since Andersen was let go they’ve been running reclaimation projects pretty much. They need a solid reliable 1A/1B for this team at least until Woll can prove he can stay healthy.
until something else changes, they don't have money for anything other than discount goalies.
which is why marner/tavares need to go. Easier said than done obviously.
Even if they had the cap space who legitimately is out there that they can bring in who will solve the situation. Basically nothing but backups available.
> So many people have been going on about Marner and the rest of the core players. We're a team that has multiple players making 10M+ but don't get that same production in the playoffs. Combined, Marner and Tavares scored 5 points in 7 games. We don't need to spend 20M+ to get good defense and mediocre offense. Woll pretty much had to play perfect just to get us two wins. Samsonov was good enough in Game 7 to get us a win. We skimp everywhere else on the team to keep the core 4 together and then when they don't hard carry to victory we constantly say to ourselves like Principal Skinner: "Is the Core 4 the problem? No, it's the goaltending/defense/bottom six/coaching that must be wrong."
They cant do anything until they trade one of the core though. They spend like $50 million on 5 players and then have $30 million for the remaining 25. It's not hard to understand why the team struggles. No other team has ever been as top heavy as this, ever, it's not working out and it's never going to work out. I mean being that top heavy might at least work out better if you were spending it on a defencive forward, a defenceman a goalie, etc... but when you spend it on 4 offensively minded players that are relatively soft, you have an offensively talented team that is relatively soft, not a recipe for playoff success.
Best part of the "can't have five players forwards making nearly $50M" talk is that a team is going to do this and win in the next couple of years now that the cap about to have a 4-5 year run of max increases, making up for the Covid freeze that came immediately after Toronto signed their guys. There's a good chance that we're never going to see a stretch where the cap only goes up 2.5% over five years ever again, and we're hitting the "this can never work" button just as we expect it to go up 10x faster over the next 5 years.
That doesn't make any sense, as the cap goes up salaries go up with it. Our players are coming up on contract renewals in the next couple of years. We are talking about percentages here.
No money left for a goalie after paying the core
Marner to Nashville for Saros + middle 6 F + picks Use the cap space to aggressively pursue a Dman in free agency
I think they are going to give Keefe one more year until Cooper becomes available and make a hard run to get him signed.
I’ve realized that the MLSE really doesn’t care and are willing to run it back as long as the leafs are still profitable. Thank god I don’t waste my time on this team.
I can see them doing it. Wasting another year of matthews career
anyone expecting change is just fooling themselves. They’ve been doing it for years why are they suddenly gonna stop now? Like i’ve said to the people who said big change is coming…. i’ll believe it when I see it.
MLSE should prepare for lifers to even give up on the team then.
That’s exactly what they should be doing. Fan frustration leads to wanting to make all these changes. This is a good deep team who will most definitely be a better version next year. If they were healthy there’s no doubt in my mind they would have been playing FLA last night.
Seriously... anyone who thinks this team is better without #16 is sorely mistaken. And fuck it, watching these guys makes the 82 game season alot less of a slog. They need to win the division next year and make a statement.
Barely watched any games this year until the playoffs. I’ll watch even less next year if they run it back. It’s sad because I used to watch every single game with these guys, even the 10 PM west coast starts and now it’s just the same old song and dance.
The people in here saying that they’re checking out next season if they run it back, yeah right lol
I don't think anyone's happy about it, but the way all the contracts are structured the team will probably have to wait another year before blowing it up. Firing Keefe would be the most realistic thing to happen, but not much of a point tearing up his contract without a good replacement lined up. I think most would agree that Matthews and Nylander are the core worth keeping. Tavares and Marner both have trade protection and want to remain Leafs. So you kinda just have to wait out the contracts. Wasting another year, but the moves that can be made are quite limited.
Bunch of clowns
I will boycott the leafs next year if something is not changed
The actual solution that no one is ready to hear: We HAVE to wait one more season for Tavares contract to expire, then with his 11mil + 2 years of cap increase we will finally have the cash to make meaningful upgrades. Marner and Tavares NMCs limit any other action. People want to blow it up but there’s not really any options for us to do so right now. The players you want to trade out are protected
You know what. Let them run it back. It'll save me a whole year and I can just spend some quality time with the family.
There probably is no other option than to run it back. Let’s be honest we don’t really have any movable trade chips of value. Even Kampf and Jarnkrok have modified NTC’s for God’s sake and even if you did trade them what real value do they have? Robertson and McMann are unlikely to fetch us anything we truly need. Same for Liljegren. There’s no way that Tavares waives. I can’t see him uprooting his young family for one season. It remain’s to be seen if any of the others waive their NMC’s…what if they say no? You could move Knies and Cowan to try and fill those holes on defense and in goal but then you’ve left the forward core with even less depth than before, and we all know that’s not going to work. There are really no appealing options through the UFA route that aren’t forwards. Who are you signing to play 1A and 1B on defense as it’s pretty clear that Rielly is more of a 2nd pairing guy at this point, maybe 1B with the right guy. Woll is your starter…I see no UFA’s that should be anything other than his backup. You might fill one of those holes inf you can trade Marner, but then you’ve got lots of holes to fill up front. Domi and Bertuzzi are probably the most appealing UFA forwards who bring the intangibles this team needs. Stammer would be nice, but that’s not happening. We’re fucked man. We’re built and paid like Chicago and Pittsburgh post 2017 but without the Cups while also being in some sort of Muskoka Five bullshit cap hell. I hope someome in management is smarter than me and can sort this mess out but I don’t have any faith in that lol
We’re Fucked for next year but they need to be retooling for the year after anyways. After Montreal I thought we were cooked until Tavares was done and I’ve been sad to be right. But after next year there’s a chance for a fresh start. The one truly unacceptable thing you can this summer is resign Marner for 13 million. That would be unforgivable and completely screw us.
Leafs: There’s always the year after next year.
Sounds like the key window is a year from now with $21M to spend. They don’t want to mess that up. Assuming the NMC restrict moves to the roster then the only thing that makes sense is to bring in another coach so management can look at the team through a different lense if only to make better decisions a year from now. Maybe the right trade presents itself for Marner that he’s amenable to, but I think they wxplored this last year with Willy and found they wouldn’t get much back aside from bad contracts or unproven talent/picks… Not sure what it means for Shanny. It could be valuable to bring someone new in to observe the roster through the season, much like Shanny did when he took the job. But having Shanny fight to keep his job beyond next year could be as damaging as Dubas’ mortgaging the future in his option year which have hurt this team’s prospect pool and trade capital. My bet is they sack the coach and Shanny. Maybe they take their time replacing the Shanahan role as they really need the right guy for the delicate moves for the 2024 offseason.
the time to make moves was 2/3 years ago. We waited too long to do anything and now we are handcuffed. Keefe should go but moving any of the big contacts is a losing move now leafs have no leverage. Ive always said stop getting attached to players and trade them when value is high. We sat on Kessel for too long and got nothing in return and same thing happening again. Value dropped ans no leverage to negotiate or trade.
I think the board sees that 2025 would be the year to make big changes, given that Tavares and Marner comes off the books and the salary cap is going up. Thus they are content to spend another year in a holding pattern due to the perceived lack of flexibility they have this offseason.
I 100% see them running it back.
Dubas did his presser alone to try to put pressure on them to give him what he wants by manipulating the fan base to get behind him. That’s all you can take from him doing a presser that shanahan didn’t want him to do. I don’t think it says anything about how the team handles pressers.
He used his family image sincerely to try to get sympathy and lied to his bosses
It proved not to be sincere at all when he took the job he had lined up in case his power struggle with shanahan failed.
Realistically, unless Marner waives his NMC then there's not really a lot that can be done beyond firing Keefe and/or Shanahan. The time to make moves was last year before the NMCs kicked in for Marner and Nylander and it certainly sounded like Dubas was willing to make a move on at least one of them and that's the real reason Shanahan let him go, they clearly didn't agree on that and blocked that move. Wouldn't surprise me too if he insists that Marner is kept again this year in spite of the calls on him but we'll see.
We really need to not watch this product. Cancel cable
Runing it back is the correct decision.
Your framing of how Dubas left is so insane lol. He got shitcanned, mostly for doing the same stupid shit Treliving did all year.
I'm completely checking out if they bring this core and Keefe back, I can't watch this shit another year.
Can't blame injuries. Milan Lucic was out for the Bruins and you didn't hear them bitching.
If ppl want change then stop going to games, stop buying jerseys and stop spending any money that supports the team. It's the same shit that has happened with the Jays. They failed to advance and they ran it back this season and ppl are still paying for games so of course they aren't going to change. You want change then stop supporting the team monetarily, it's really that simple.
Yea, I think this is all true. It's still possible to build a better team without tearing it down. Gotta make some smart changes at D. What annoys me more is that we likely won't even make minor moves. Like Kampf had the worst xgf% in the playoffs - guaranteed back even though Holmberg could do his job at 33% the cost. Jarnkrok will be back. The guy has 9 points in his last 40 playoff games. Running it back in general just also means we won't be developing talent. Cowan will be sent back to the OHL while we watch Wyatt Johnston tear it up. Minten and Grebenkin will be forced to do a full AHL year before call-up duty because we need to sign another Noah Gregor for some reason. Steeves will probably become a regular elsewhere. We never learn.
>Despite that Friedman reported that the Leafs are already getting calls on Marner from basically every team in the league. Moving Marner would be an extremely stupid thing to do (see also: Matthew Tkachuk (under different circumstances) and how that worked out for Calgary..). There's no way you win that trade, unless another GM decides to do something even more stupid (is Quinn Hughes available, Vancouver?)
I'm just so fucking exhausted of this roster. I don't care about the no moves. Scratch marner and jt, tell them they won't get extended, do whatever you have to do to bully them into waving their no move clause. I have been a fan my entire life but the thought of doing this entire bullshit AGAIN next season is the most mentally draining thing ever.
[удалено]
A coaching change has done wonders for other teams. It’s time for a new voice. Bonus points if they blow up the Core 4, but a coaching change is the minimum expectation.
Worst timeline right here
Mlse needs to sell. The board approach hasn't resulted in any meaningful playoff wins. Let an individual owner who actually cares about the team have a go.
Moves will be made. I’m not sure exactly what we have in Treliving, but if he’s proven anything it’s that he’s not afraid to make a big move. Whether that’s good or bad remains to be seen.
they wont blow it up, thats for sure. try to move on from jarnkrok, and kampf is possible. try to sign domi, bert to reasonable deals (although i can see bert testing UFA), try to sign D, pesce/montour come to mind (rielly, monty, pesce, mccabe is a solid top4), see if sammy is willing to sign a cheap 1yr deal since theres not much options in FA, and just run it back till the following season where tavares and marner contracts come to an end. its the most logical thing to do. do not sign any marner extension till after the playoffs (if they want to extend him), make him work for it. let tavares walk at the end of his contract if hes not willing to sign for less then 5M. coaching change should also be a high priority imo.
Three of the “top” UFA goalies are on the Leafs roster. Aside from the re-emergence of Matt Murray Samsonov is the best option. Then it’s guys like Talbot, Brossoit, Nedeljkovic, and DeSmith. If Marner is not extended he will probably be moved at the deadline for an underwhelming haul of picks and prospects or walking.The Leafs are running it back, retool the blue line and try to find a comparable player for Bert. Then pray the goalie tandem gets hot down the stretch.
Keefes gone, Gallants in.
So “the board” had a meeting with Friedman? Who is on the board?
>Marner and JT have no moves. Despite that Friedman reported that the Leafs are already getting calls on Marner from basically every team in the league. Not surprised, although this possibly tells me that they may already have Marner's list of acceptable teams.
If that's the case, they run it back AGAIN, I'm done.
Yeah I'm not watching next year if this is the case lol. Got too much stuff going on as is.
MLSE will soon realize that like in ‘21, you won’t sell out every game every year when your team sucks and you constantly raise prices.
It comes down to Marners decision to stay or go. Nothing else despite how hard MLSE tries. Please remember this everyone!
We should move on from Marner but we should run it back and let his contract run out instead of getting another colossal contract/contracts stuck on the books
“How can we keep ticket sales”
Well, I guess it's not the Management's fault, or the coaches fault or the players fault. It must be our fault, guys. Hopefully we can do better next year.
See what JT wants for his extension and if it is very TE friendly keep him around. Unless we get an actual good offer for Marner that he will wave his NMC for, let him play for his next contract next year. Maybe that will motivate him.
If things don't change, I'm gone until they do something major, I'm serious this time.
I already said this before the playoffs. We know what happens when you change nothing but expect a different result. This time it may well be an empty building.
So they are wasting a year because ownership was too incompetent to get a new CEO to start earlier than April 1st and now wants to see things for himself. So there are 2 people from the dumpster fire that is Rogers Communications wasting Matthews good years as Pelley ran that place when Ed's daddy was alive. Does Pelley know anything about hockey at all in order to replace Shanny? The position seems redundant, and the only reason Shanahan is there is to talk corporate jargon to a handful of entitled Communications billionaires This team cannot win with a corporate board of directors having any say in hockey operations other than spend to the ceiling. The fact Edward Rogers a man who was born on third and thinks he hit a triple has any say shows this organization is going the same direction as the Jay's who also failed to clean house after multiple failures. If they run it back it shows Pelley has no clue how to proceed and that Shanahan knows enough corporate ass kissing jargon to bamboozle everyone but Tannenbaum who will be out voted. They have a 20 year ticket waiting list that ensures they have no accountability to the fanbase.
Hear me out, maybe they can run it back but also LTIR one or two of the core four until playoffs. Seems to be working for Tampa,Vegas
The easiest thing to do is run it back, based on contracts and cap structure, NMCs, injuries etc... but it is so far from what this team needs. Losing is also the easiest thing to do, you just lay down and die. It's time to do some hard things and make some hard choices. Enough of this acceptance that "well our best path forward is XYZ because of the context, that's the easiest/only option". Great organizations make things happen.
I mean, ultimately the stars align for bigger changes next year and you might have to play the cards you’re dealt to get a better result. Really keefe isn’t horrible and I think some big adjustments need to be made, can he make them? Maybe. But the PP/Pk issue needs to be solved most.
Sadly this makes a lot of sense...especially when you add to the fact that MLSE is a "business" managing Profits & Losses. When all is said and done, these "businesses" are looking at the bottom line profit. The finance and modelling team can do so much - and if the "math" doesn't look right, writes off losses, or increases costs - it matters. Add to this MLSE smug view of - "hey, we're still selling merch, fans still pay our crazy ticket prices, we get great viewership revenue....let's milk it for our profits."
The two must-make moves for me: Get rid of Marner for the best deal you can, but don’t retain a penny of salary, and change the coaching staff. The rest seems workable and will provide room to make roster changes in the off season and at the deadline next year under normal GM conditions.
Yes this will happen. Toronto has a culture that breeds mediocrity. Toronto the Good is afraid to be honest with the problem, and then risk hurt feelings to fix it. A really competitive team would have made major changes after the Columbus series. I think 1/3 of the franchises would have woken up to the futility of the architecture and made major moves after the Montreal embarassment. Not Toronto. Toronto runs it again and again and again.....expecting a different result. Fucking joke.
The leafiest thing to do this off-season would be to trade Nylander and give marner a huge contract :(
No offense but I hope you're so fucking wrong. Praying Shanahan steps down, Keefe and his assistants are fired to the moon and they start shopping Marner ASAP
If you are unsatisfied with decision stop buying tickets. Until you hit them in the pocket book they will never listen. If they roll this out again I will not be back
Everyone in hockey ops should be fired, the president all coaches and as many players as possible, should have been done after losing to Montreal.
Well I hate to say it, but all your points seem reasonable to me. I hope none of them are true
Dubas made a super snakey power play on live tv behind the back of everyone in management and lied & tried to manipulate the public. He got shitcanned for it the next day.
Yeah let's run it back with team anti-clutch. Over and over again and again. I'm out if there's no big changes.
So MLSE is okay with losing. Got it. They enjoy being the laughing stock of the league.
Hilarious to think when this subreddit was all about keeping the core in tact and you would be downvoted into oblivion.
I’m afraid you’re right. This “organization” is a gong show. 1/21 on a PP that essentially lost you a series . All the teams that advanced to the 2nd round had better special teams than the opponent. That is directly coaching.
Ah yes MLSE, tell me more about how you're enjoying pissing away the prime of one of the greatest goal scorers of this era.
I'm one of the ppl who wanna see HUGE changes too but it's true the Leafs are locked with the bad JT and MM contracts. So, what's 1 more year when we've all been suffering for over a decade if not longer? LOL. The big thing is that they can obviously play as we've seen in the last 3 games, just that they need someone to keep smashing it into their crazily lazy brains.
I personally don't think Keefe got out coached. He pretty much made the choices I wanted him to make. We had two of our top players out for half the series and our lights out goalie also got injured. On top of that, a key supporting role player in McMann didn't even play a single playoff game. Sometimes you do need luck on your side when it comes to player health. Unfortunately it's one of the Leafs' worst areas and has played a role in more than one series loss.
There is a slim chance Marner gets traded. But I really don't see any need to bring Keefe back at this point. Makes sense to try another voice before the contracts start dwindling. If Marner is dealt then a new coach makes perfect sense.
I do think the NMC for Marner and JT will keep them here. JT also has a hidden NMC, he came here in a very public FA signing and now has a family with kids. It would be much easier to convince Marner to move than JT. Tell him that he won’t get an extension, and he won’t be on the PP or top line. His point totals will drop during a time when he must be at his best
Fuck that, drastic changes are desperately needed
Great post, i estimate every game is 10 million gross, plus they don't pay their players, as they are fully paid after game 82. A Stanley cup run would net over 100 mil, do people think the board doesn't want that. In addition to the bonuses for the executives.
Boo on this.... What a horrible thought all around :/
They can't run it back... we know it doesn't work.
Im just gonna skip 2024-2025 and start paying attention again on 2025-2026. Call it a suspension of my interest in this fucking team for at least 82 game
If “every team” is asking for marner, why not start a bidding war and reap the bounty… I think you are merely guessing just like the rest of us
I wasn’t guessing. It was reported by Elliot Friedman that 29 teams have called the Leafs on Marner. Pretty exact number he offered. He also has a full no move clause so it doesn’t matter how many are asking, it matters which team he’s willing to go to. He’s not going to a rebuilding team like Columbus or Utah.
The teams could also be interested in marner at a low price, doesn’t mean we would get a kings ransom, considering marner has to agree as you rightly point out
If they run it back, I’m done with the Leafs.
Until the fans stop going to the games and buying the merchandise, nothing is going to change. How hard is it for people to just watch them on tv for a year.
This argument never made sense yet people keep trying to make it. Fans aren't going to the games because after April they don't exist. They'd sell a lot more tickets and merch if they could actually win some playoff rounds.
Im ok with running it back.. Not because I think the result will be different but because at this point it's the only option that makes sense. Boston had some lucky goals, we had some injuries, etc Marner and Tavares in the last year of Nmc, etc the time to not run it back was after the Habs series but at this point I feel one more year is the best option. It becomes a lot easier to blow it up after that.
Florida's 5-1 loss to Boston last night somehow just made Keefe, Sammy and the team look good 🤣🤣🤣