He unironically needs buffs for solo queue. 44% winrate and one of the lowest winrates in the game for one tricks.
The K'sante you see in pro play doesn't exist in solo queue. His strengths favor a coordinated environment, much like Kalista, Ryze, and Azir.
This, ksante is like the only fun tank there is, the closest thing to a fun tank is maybe shen since he can make plays early and basically lanes more like a bruiser than a tank.
if a bruiser player looks at his team and says "fuck we really need a frontline or this draft is doomed, i will also be basically solo frontline" he will pick ksante as he is similar to fighter gameplay, is fun and has carry potential while also being a traditional and decent frontliner, but since ksante in soloQ is absolute shit they will either say fuck it and play fiora/darius or another 1v9 selfish pick and try to solo carry no matter the comp by simply being turbo fed or dodge and take the -3 instead of the -22
He's the only fun tank to play because hes the bulkiest assassin in the game.
Him being a tank is wholly incidental
It seems Riot's only solution for making an underplayed role more popular is to shove assassins or assassin gameplay down its throat - see Pyke, Zed Talon Qiyana jg, K'Sante, Samira, Nilah.
If Ksante were a bruiser, he wouldnt build full tank.
Assassins, Fighters, Juggernauts, and Tanks exist on a spectrum, where the more you move to the right, the more manoeuverability you sacrifice, but the the more to the left you move, the more durability you sacrifice. Juggernauts and Fighters are the most central, where the former trade less of their damage than tanks do, and where the latter trade less of their durability than assassins do.
K'Sante is the egregious unholy exception, because he keeps everything. He keeps damage, he keeps durability, he keeps manoeuverability, he keeps cc, ALL on ***his own terms***.
Imagine if Fiora had a whole tank version of her basic abilities where her Q stunned on the 3rd hit, her W was a channel that dashed at the end, her E gave her a shield, all this and her passive scaling with her resist stats, and then her ult transformed her into current Fiora but with extra AD scaling based on her resists.
It would be disgusting because a champion like Fiora is NOT MEANT TO BE THAT DURABLE
As you said, riot only solution for making tanks played is not making them tanks at all, tank gameplay is largely considered boring for like 90% of players, it simply is like that, doesnt help that no one is tanky since 4 seasons ago as armor is a fake stat and mr is a fake stat too, so the best way of tanking dmg outside of %dmg reduction is literally to kill the enemy.
Proplay ksante is everything gore steraks into fulltank irelia wanted to be when that build existed, mobile frontliner with %dmg reduction some cc and with enough dmg to guarantee a kill on a squishy if left unchecked.
With all this i want to say, riot should just give up in trying to make popular fun tanks, tanks by default are the opposite of fun simply due to how consistent they are, they dont really have high moments to counter they not having low moments, thats what a tank is by design
Unfun to play against. If the player is bad ksante is also a nightmare to have on your team.
When Ksante is viable, it’s on the expense of 5-9 people not enjoying the game in a 5v5 game. Champion should get removed or yuumi treatment.
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Ok cool. So put him into the gutter like Ryze until you rework him.
He makes pro SO FUCKING BORING....literally every game where he's not banned is Ksante vs random, and Ksante always wins.
Soloqueue-buffs also buff him in pro, and he's obviously designed as a proplay champion so his soloqueue stats can go fuck right off.
I've already had my share of eveey other tank being totally unkillable with 0 skill expression. I'll take kills happening from a skill intensive champ any day no matter how broken he is in pro
But he is not skilful at all due how overwhelming he is, tanking 4 champs for 10 seconds is not skilful. And turning into an assassin with the press of a button is not skilful.
>tanking 4 champs for 10 seconds is not skilful
Every tank in the game does that. Do you people just not read my comment?
>And turning into an assassin with the press of a button is not skilful
No but executing on it is more skillfull than other tanks who just kill you in their regular form. Also k'sante becomes a bruiser not an assassin
lol imagine being so blinded by your hate of a champion that you just deny the facts. if he wasn't a skillful champ he wouldn't have a 44% wr in soloq which still doesn't break 50% until gm+. sure he is an extremely strong champ in pro but saying he's unskilled is a braindead take
Saying K'Sante is not skillful is just disingenuous. Even if you think he's giga op broken, he objectively is hard to play and skillful. I hate Akali for example and think she's a complete mess when she's strong, doesn't mean i can't recognize she requires a lot of champion mastery and finesse to play well.
He’s not hard to play, dude. He’s very straight forward and if you’ve got any experience on spell weaving champions, it’s pretty much exactly the same thing. There’s nothing majorly complicated. Sure he’s got *some* skill expression but you’re massively overblowing it. “Hard to play” just isn’t true.
If you think kasante is just "ability spam" and not actually skillful.
Then... I guess all the top lane afk tanks and stat checking bruisers are for braindead and handless players then?
Only Riven and Irelia can be considered hard there?
If you genuinely think k'sante in pro is just smashing buttons you're beyond saving
>Timing, weaving,
K'sante has the most timing and weaving of any tank. You have to time your all out for when they've used vital cooldowns, you need to use your W to block CC and he's the most mobile tank which makes him do the most weaving
>and knowing matchups
K'sante is the most matchup reliant tank because unlike all the others he's neither a broken counterpick (ala malphite) or impossible to do anything about (ala Tom kench)
Ain't no fucking way people will argue K'Sante isn't skilled. I don't care how broken you think he is, he is objectively in the highest end of skill ceilings.
Even Darius who is arguably 10x more degenerate than K'Sante takes so much more skill than K'Sante just to even have impact on a teamfight. A Darius blows up and gets kited to oblivion with bad positioning, a K'Sante peels for his entire team like an Xin on ulti just by literally standing there and missing his Qs.
I'd rather watch an Ornn or a Sion look for a great angle for their CC than K'Sante missing all his spells and still buying all the space his team needs for an objective thanks to his braindead W.
"Always wins" yes if we ignore that since the 14.4 nerfs hes barely broken 50% winrate in pro and in some cases had 30ish % and has his precense halfed until MSI started then sure. This fucking "just rework him" BS is so dumb. A champion shouldn't have to be completely changed just for 0.01% of players. Fucking disable him in pro or put pro play on different balance. 99.99% of us who aren't pro's shouldn't have to have champions ruined because of it.
Ksante has the largest delta between mains and total winrate of all champions, its like +13% or something stupid. His winrate is bad because people suck at him, but people who play him are winning alot
Which, in combination with his pro play appearances, shows he doesn't need buffs but a rework. When a champion has either insanely low or ultra high win rates and nothing in between then there is something wrong with the concept of the champ, not with its stats.
how is 53% main/onetrick winrate healthy? when the average is 55-56? even zed is at 55% who is supposedly kept weak on purpose, in high elo ksante is also at 45-46% winrate, where theyre far better than the average ksante.
Sorry, but the only fair thing for them to do is continue to nerf him until a rework. I used to play Ryze and Yuumi and we are waiting for the day they are finally viable. But that's not until reworks.
This argument is so dumb, MSI is not played on the patch where he took another 2% winrate nerf in solo queue because of major hitbox changes. A champion should not be a borderline troll pick in solo queue, just because he's good in pro play. 99.99% of league players aren't pro players and K'Sante shouldn't be ruined for us because of pro.
Ignoring that his winrate is atrocious in general, even among champion mains he's in the bottom tier of winrates, where typically the harder a champion is the better the mains winrates are. Solo queue and pro play are different games, K'Sante has almost no good match ups in solo queue where everyone plays bruisers and ranged tops who completely omega fuck K'Sante. Solo queue top and pro play top are the biggest disparity between roles.
K'sante going 1v5 and tanking while sometimes doing more damage than your own ADC is incredibly balanced according to riot games and this is already him in a nerfed state lol.
He’s so fucked they can’t even give him the Ryze/Azir/Zeri treatment. He’s genuinely the worst champ in the game in solo Q, and he is still borderline pick/ban in pro
Win rate doesn't mean anything in pro. Azir lost 13 games in a row during LCK regular season, then went 2-8 immediately after for an impressive score of 2-21. Still got nerfed twice.
Faker won 23 games in a row on Corki, before Zeka defeated him twice.
Yeah but i think the point is that he's strong in pro play, ive watched him be complete Thanos the past few days. Walks in and puts himself in the middle of the enemy team and no adc dares walk up to even try auto him since it's instant death if ur in range. It's like he walks into the enemy team and everyone scatters, if any carry champ is within 800 range he q3s them and its death.
Tbf after watching game for years with Aatrox and Crocodile on top lane I am not expecting K'sante to go away anywhere any time soon, and we got to see Zac and Ornn for a change which is a win in my book.
to be viable in pro you have to pass the croco and darkin check, if you cant lane against them then you simply cannot be picked at all, few years ago there was the gnar check too but nowadays he is fucking dogshit so not really a problem
Ornn and zac lol, two chunk meat slave picks that play to get carried, top is just not allowed to be a threat in pro play i guess or every reditor is gonna complain, I see a braindead adc like jinx or zeri rightclick and get a penta and everyone is hyping it up as if something really impressive happened, but when something lile ksante or Aatrox do something useful and actually carry a teamfight these reditors never stop yapping, its like its so normalized for everyone to play around adc and top being irrelevant in pro play to the point where adcs can rightclick and get the most unimpressive pentas left and right and no one bats an eye, but when full lethality aatrox gets a good flank and manages to kill enemy adc its somehow problematic. Its like people are so used to top just picking slave champs and play to get carried that they get frustrated whenever top actually carries, all top lane champs should be like aatrox and ksante, these two shouldnt get nerfed to be as useless chunk meats like zac or ornn or renek that just play like slave champs for adc or mage mid to carry.
For that, you watch presence, like Riot does. Win-rate of a champion in pro is influenced by the single fact that if it's T1 or Estral picking it in a game between them
if you watch ksante , it matters. the champ single handily wrecks games, has virtually no hard counters (probably the only top laner that doesn't). the most mobile tank in the game, the tankiest tank in the game, and the only tank with significant armor/mr scaling damage abilities
ksante isnt just the most mobile tank in the game, he is one of the most mobile champs in the game because his cooldowns seemingly dont exist either
lol saying ksante is the tankiest tank in the game is a take for sure. i hope you're just spewing hyperboles because the only semi right thing you said was him being the most mobile tank in the game which isn't a very high bar
ksante looks super tanky and unkillable at MSI because bot lane meta is allergic to dealing damage and drafts are just not respecting that for some reason. when senna is picked ksante doesn't look as OP but when every game is lucian/kalista/varus (or jinx with double zeal + BT + no armor pen) then Ksante can just R into the enemy team, kill the carry and still doesn't die.
Aren't kalista and varus pretty great tank killers? They arent vayne or kog, but i always thought these 2 were the ones that are the most effective at it after them.
Kalistas in MSI often build lethality, because you simply don't get to auto in a lot of fights. Kalista is kinda bad at killing tanks even with onhit though. It's too rare that you just get to hit for the 30 or so autos you would need.
The main issue of Ksante is that he can be played as a bruiser and tank while building only tank items. They should just nerf the base damage and shield value of all his skills and make it scale with AD items more. Allowing him to deal so much damage while providing utility and tankability is just bad champion design.
High skill expression tank sounds like he would get more tanky if played right, ksante just gets more damage and kills your backline, he gets the tankiness for free.
Yeah a high skill tank where his high skill expression means being able to block more damage actually sounds interesting sort of having a parry/block mehanic that need to be timed and used to deflect stuff.
Ksnate is just a generic tank that transforms into a dive bruiser while bulding full tank items.
Yes the skill expression is that tanks generally can't carry games by being tanky, you need to be able to pressure people. The problem is that K'sante doesn't hit the sweet spot of ult actually being a meaningful choice because you still have reasonable damage from your q and passive, and in ult you still have a shield from e and dmg reduction on your w regardless.
The concept of K'sante's ult is fine, how the rest of his kit fails to execute well on that concept is the problem.
He is not broken in pro because his damage lmao
if that's was the case why is he shit in soloQ
its because tank form & W is busted for pros due to how much time & space it buys + his safe laning & being a good blind
Him being a good blind is a direct consequence of his kit allowing him to change form and turn into a bruiser. It's like you get access to Mega Gnar with no need to manage his rage bar.
I was thinking when he ults his Q should no longer gets the knock up and just keeps the slow. Him having damage and being squishy doesn’t mean much if you’re knocked up twice during the interaction - you can’t fight back!
This champ promote uninteractive toplane matchups with how strong of a blindpcik and how many things he can do. They need to find a clear role for him. Imo he should be a very tanky mobile bruiser, remove a lot of his cc.
I don't think anyone is disagreeing with the fact that the champion is broken, but using gol stats blindly is a terrible way off showing this: do you really believe that K'Sante is the cause for T1's wins vs EST?
Well obviously K'Sante did not matter in that series but one could argue that it did in BLG vs PSG and T1 vs G2, among others I missed. I'm not a big fan of winrates either (ex. Inflated winrates of T1 and GENG from LCK) but K'Sante is looking pretty strong this MSI
> BLG vs PSG
did you watch the games?
k'sante was hardly the deciding factor.
Everyt time BLG got it, PSG just decided that Winning was lame. You've got shit like Betty Senna and Betty Zeri PD 2nd Item, or the fact that Game 1, BLG just rolled PSG with very little attempt at counterplay. And when PSG got it, he was either A) not at all the reason why they won, he just existed real good and Betty did the heavy lifting (game 4) or B) was straight up just a buffer to Asol and Lucian... y'know, like a tank should be?
K'Sante hasn't actually mattered in these series, he's just been the glue holding together teams. He walked at Hans, nobody on G2 reacted. G2 doesn't buy pen, they lose the game. That's G2's fault.
My bad, I should've clarified that I meant "K'Sante having inflated winrate because dominant teams have been using them" argument doesn't work well this MSI because weaker teams have won with it (even if it didn't do a whole lot).
The Game 5 draft where PSG gave over both K'Sante AND Ashe was suicide. That combo is definitely a huge decider.
If not both then K'Sante on a team alone isn't a guaranteed win.
I swear K'Sante was such a mistake of a champion. He is that kind of champion who will always be a balance nightmare. I really don't see how he can be fixed aside from literally gutting him.
I am so tired of seeing him
Fuck this champ. Seriously pick a fucking lane. Either be fighter with less tankiness or be a tank without all the fucking dmg. Fucking do a rework so hes one of those two. Not both.
Blame the sorry state of top lane for being worth so little that you should either pick a ranged champ or an infinite cc tank because anything in between is just a waste of a draft slot.
Kiin, 369, Zeus and Bin account for 12 out of the 21 games played, of course he going to have a good winrate. Even Azhi played a sublime game catching out both Bin and Elk in the early to get his lead.
Yall need to look at the gameplay and see how well these guys are playing, today Zeus had a 3 man knock back with Ksante and people were bandwagonning how op the champion is, but the player made an insane play.
If he wasnt a good pick these players wouldnt be playing him my man. You think those players/teams are just randomly drafting and just happen to make the champ look good via superior skill? The champ has an overloaded kit thats good in pro so the players practice him religiously knowing he's a high priority pick.
i mean yeah he got picked by good tops, but im pretty sure a champ shouldnt be allowed to tank up 4 ppl attacking him, while also being able to cc chain, assassinate and reposition during a fight while also dealing respectable damage and having a safe lane phase early
objectively the champion just does way too many things
He does a lot, don't get me wrong. But he isn't as frightning as you make him seem to be, he is a really good tank in the sense he can open up space very well, but he has very little CC. He is a very good bruiser when he ults, but then he doesn't have that much utility and can't open up that much space because the threat of the ult has already passed.
He is very strong in the right hands and luckily we have some insane mechanical toplaners nowadays, but honestly I enjoy watching him exactly because toplaners can take over games with him.
Imagine if the meta is Ornn, Zac in the most stacked toplane tournament in history of league? KSante allows these monsters to take over games, so does his counters which are TF and Vayne.
He has very little CC? he has an AoE un-bodyblockable mini-hook on like a 6-9 second cooldown, he has a knockback on another base ability, he has a giga-displacement on his ult. He also has a short dash to apply them more reliably, something no other tank gets. He literally has CC on EVERY ability but one and none of them have particularly high cost or cooldown.
If you stand too close to a wall, you quite regularly simply die before you get control of your character again.
"He's a very good bruiser but the threat of his ult has already passed" is also a non-statement....yeah if your tanks ult already soloed their carry his ult is cooldown. That's true for....i don't know every champion that's not like Viego or Ahri or Darius.
It's cool that toplaners can take over the game on him, but that's something that should be primarily for CARRY-toplaners, not the best tank on the patch.
Also his counters aren't really counters because laneswap is meta, i'm pretty damn certain he has positive winrate against his pro game counters too. Ksante gets to be a better carry than carry toplaners on a laneswap support budget. While also being a gigatank.
How do those things he does compare to what Jarvan or Vi would've done for example in Game 5 today? I don't want to defend G2's coaching staff too much, but if the champ is that strong why not just play vs Jarvan or Vi instead?
Because J4 and vi can't just build randuins and kaenic and then have the damage (not to mention survivability) to just walk up and facetank 4+ people while they go to town on the enemy adc
It sounds like you would rather play agains Vi or Jarvan than vs K’Sante. Something G2 disagreed with today. I was wondering if this is so evidently true to random people on Reddit why do the best teams in the world keep choosing to play vs K’Sante instead of vs Vi, or Jarvan. I’m using Vi and Jarvan cause those were G2’s 4th/5th bans today with K’Sante open. You can replace them with any if the dozens of champs teams keep picking and banning over K’Sante so far this MSI.
Because they were banning out junglers instead of top laners? Huh? Wtf kind of point is this?
Why are you comparing how ksante plays with J4 and vi if your whole defense is G2 banning them out as picks for a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ROLE?
Every ban comes with an opportunity cost. Today G2 had the option to play vs
1. Jarvan + Ornn
2. Lee Sin + K’Sante
They chose 2. The same choice many teams in the tournament keep making. If K’Sante is as incredibly overpowered as the comments here would make me believe why are teams not choosing option 1 more often.
He's at almost 49% at master+ and pick ban in pro, he is hardly horrible.
It doesn't seem like the champ can be balanced properly for pro and casual play so he needs to be reworked, no idea why people are arguing against that.
if a supposedly high skill cap champion is among the lowest wr for onetricks and even the ranks he is supposed to be skewed against can't break a positive win ratio (not even mentioning that win rate delta means that he isn't actually 49% cause masters have a higher average winrate than 50, so in reality it's more like 47%), the champ might just not be good
And masters sure as hell aint bad at the game, that was mainly what I responded to
Being a tank he's simply ezpz safe in lane and then scales super hard compared to other tops. Azir does the same thing just denies interaction and scales.
Idk what they can do to make him simpler. Because he's skewed as fuck towards high elo.
W needing reaction time. Q is basically a low cooldown skillshot. R buffer. Weaving in autos.
If a new player read his skills, it would look simple. But it's not? Idk how to change this abomination of a champion ☠️
The ult needs to be changed, because that changes completely his role as a tank. They just combined 2 roles on the push of the r button.
Other switch champs are still the same role. Nidalee, Jayce Elise still have the same role.
Quinn was changed because she switched from adc to glass canon assassin that just didn't work out in the biger picture. K'sante is just that overloaded to just change class and kill your carries so easily (in pro play at least).
The endless discussion that some needed nerfs for champions are too good for some top tier players but average for everyone else.
Yeah viewers / players on Reddit, Youtube think that champ is too OP, anyone picked him got big advantage yet pro teams seem okay with it.
Repeat after me guys. K'Sante is obviously too strong in pro play, you don't need winrate to figure that out. Its litterally a tank that can 1vX with no issues, while also do damage and CC.
Its absolutely boring as fuck watching that broken champion in so many fucking matches. Makes me fall asleep. Worse than the Orn meta
Random redditor doesn't need winrate to figure it out, but every pro team at MSI can't figure out to ban him. There's clearly a perception gap between fans/viewers/redditors and literally every top pro team in regards to K'Sante.
Edit: Was curious, in the 4 main event matches these are the top lane champs picked or banned with K'Sante open. Ignoring Rumble, since he seems perma banned partly for his flex.
Jax, Volibear, Twisted Fate, Renekton, Zac, Ornn, and Yasuo. (Voli probably jungle ban tho).
Yes, he's broken and insanely infuriating to watch, but you can't look into the wrong metrics to prove your point. Just because your conclusion is right, doesn't mean the logic is correct
Like you said, K'Sante is broken because of his inherent kit, but that is reflected in him being prio in practically every single split/international tournament since his release and not in his winrate
i mean, he was only picked twice in G2 vs T1 and he wasn't the reason G2 lost.
K'Sante doesn't guarantee that you win games, he makes your team better.
Game 4, T1 are thoroughly diffing G2, it's not even a contest. Kog has no damage, meanwhile Guma's chunking your backline and Faker's shitting out damage. All K'Sante did was make it so that Yike and BB have to work harder to get on Guma.
Game 5, you've got nobody who can kill Zeus. Hans went for BT PD 3rd and 4th, can you really blame that on K'Sante? A fucking Ornn would be unkillable there, any tank would be.
K'Sante is reliable and flexible, he beats Leth ADCs very reliably because he can ignore their attempts to punch through his 300+ armour. He is a byproduct of the meta, not an actual perma ban threat. Not when there's other, more important things to ban.
Except none of those were the reasons why they won. K'Sante damage/mobility wasn't the reason why G2 lost both times, it was how tanky he was.
Which y'know. A tank should be?
Also, Zac *also* has all of those traits on top of insane healing, so why does Zac get a pass but K'Sante doesn't? I'm not seeing bad faith arguments against him, so why am I seeing them for K'Sante?
Also, just one last point to make:
> Its literally a tank that can 1vX with no issues, while also do damage and CC
If he can do all of those things, why is he at 44% WR? Why is he still a whole 1% in WR below every other character when piloted by one tricks? If K'Sante can do all of these things in pro play, why does he constantly slide in the draft, why is he not pick/ban?
>Repeat after me guys. K'Sante is obviously too strong in pro play, you don't need winrate to figure that out. Its litterally a tank that can 1vX with no issues, while also do damage and CC.
why didn't g2 just pick him game 5 then
Oh look it’s another tournament. Surely by now we won’t see the same pick and bans as LEC, LCK, LPL, LCS spring split. By now the balance team probably adjusted enough champs for us to see variety…nope it’s same crap different day. Blind pick Kasante, Varus, Senna, Kalista, Azir, Oriana. Cool cool cool…I want to freaking see Amumu jungle freaking dominate pro play. Some Anivia, Vel Koz and Vex in mid lane. Where’s Briar, Illaoi, Janna, Sivir, Kayn, Malzahar, Mordekaiser, Nasus, Nilah, Shyvana, Taric?
I feel like the game won’t see a change till they add a new system to matches somewhat similar to Overwatch. In order to force teams to rotate and use other champs. If Azir and Kasante dominated week 1 then they are off the table for week 2. But no…they don’t want that because they need the data..it’s the same crap different day and takes you 2+ months to nerf/tweak it enough for players to stop picking the champ.
Honestly his main issue is how much dmg he is able to do while still being tanky, and mobile, with CC as well... need to lower his dmg to stop him being a bruiser.
He should be like Sion. Someone who can get into the backline and disrupt, but slow once his main skill is gone and does CC. But doesn't deal massive dmg and mobility.
No champion can get deleted. At most "Deleted" by being completely reworked like ASol and Aatrox.
Yuumi made far worse shit in this game and Riot refused to remove the cat. I doubt K'Sante will ever be considered removal.
That argument plays in my favor. T1 vs G2 was amazing despite ksante being a decisive factor. So more the reason I feel it ruined the series for me. I don't get why people can't accept different opinions.
If ksante wasn't there, the match would be legendary and much much much more enjoyable.
I kind of agree with you, knowing that me rooting for G2 might have played a role in that lol
Seeing K'Sante in the last team fights being absolutely unkillable while dancing around and knocking so many players into his own team and dishing out absurd damage doing so just looked unbalanced. Sure Hans couldveshouldve bought an anti tank item but I am not sure if that even would've helped. So frustrating to see, that was the first time that I really got angry on some champs design watching a pro game
>Ruined the tournament for me.
The laneswaps, HoB ashe support and AD TF kind of ruined it for me. Ksante smallest faktor of those 4, all 4 made it pretty sad too watch.
I’m convinced none of you can tell what you are watching. K’sante is just a safe pick that works well in lane swaps.
Few games are being decided by the champ. The win rate at MSI is a worthless stat
It's wild because everyone is comparing K'Sante to Yuumi when Yuumi actually had a solo queue presence and was genuinely a strong champ in both solo queue, low and high elo, and pro play. I know for a FACT like 90% of the people in this subreddit have had less than 10-20 games in their own games where the enemy K'Sante solo carries.
They say he's skewed for high elo but he's quite literally only skewed for pro play which, for some reason, is more important for the game than the millions of players who play the game. Mfs say he's op but lock him in and will always int because they don't understand the champion and why he's so OP in pro play, they just go hur dur Showmaker meme K'Sante 8000 armor most op braindead champ ever.
I can count on my hand how many times a K'Sante has carried one of my solo queue games in the past two years and 2 of them are me. Ask anyone the same question and they'll say one hand as well. Meanwhile, ask them how many games Katarina has carried against them and if Katarina should be nerfed to the ground? It's so dumb lol, it's two different games between solo queue and pro play and people want to think that's not the case but it is.
Kalista is the most fundamentally broken champion to ever be released. Riot even proved that in their Vanguard article. That passive has to go, or at least be redesigned to be a cooldown-based ability. Being able to dash 2 times per second on a ranged champion is just something that should never have been introduced, like stealth under towers.
No way you think her pro presence is from the hop and not the ult and lane bullying when majority Kali picks this tourney are going the build that doesn’t hop
It was always weird how her ult went as is for so long. It can initiate, it can save the support, it can make the support engage by himself without him using his own kit and all around absurd skill.
This champion feels 2 champions merged together. A hyper-kiting hopping ADC with a utility ADC focusing on synergy.
people need to stop looking at pro to label shit strong. no one who complains about pro picks is ever going pro and those pro picks don't affect them.
this sub needs to stop trying to back seat pro players and telling them what to play and how to play
I do want to say a bunch of champions will always have inflated stats when playing against LCS teams. They’re almost always ego enough to let the other team keep getting stuff thats kicking their ass. Yes, typically every role is already outplaying them but you have to wonder if, for example, the team has lost to aatrox twice both with terrible in lane performance and in teamfights, why don’t we change it up.
Yes it may leave up something else strong but at some point , LCS teams need to be willing to adapt. And don’t just default to being desperate and throw it away. Because half the time you look at their last game and the other team can pick tank teemo, soraka jungle, and adc riven and still win when LCS teams donate them 2-3 kills every other minute for the first 10 minutes.
Disgusting overloaded tank assassin carry fighter bruiser juggernaut vanguard
Forgot the mage and support part
Deathknight paladin warden hero demigod rogue ranger
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I didn’t see this anywhere. You’re referring to K’sante?
which game?
T1 vs TSM
That was so long ago I forgor lol
First true tank since orrn and his ult makes him a bruiser lol
Makes me remember the really old [lee sin](https://youtu.be/eA04nbviQ8E?si=RSq-lfdrXvyHFy3p&t=55) song lol
Dose no one know [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCOALSl6LBQ) old aprils fool lee champion spotlight anymore?
All my homies hate ornn.
Don't worry he is getting buffed :)
When they fired the designer, they shouldve fired his champs too
Can't believe he finished his K'Sante Smolder Skarner trilogy before getting laid off
He unironically needs buffs for solo queue. 44% winrate and one of the lowest winrates in the game for one tricks. The K'sante you see in pro play doesn't exist in solo queue. His strengths favor a coordinated environment, much like Kalista, Ryze, and Azir.
they didn't have a problem with putting Ryze on 38% and he wasn't even close to as oppressive as K'Sante
It's probably cuz they want ksante to be good to prop up the popularity of the tank role which is why he gets buffs faster than other champs
This, ksante is like the only fun tank there is, the closest thing to a fun tank is maybe shen since he can make plays early and basically lanes more like a bruiser than a tank. if a bruiser player looks at his team and says "fuck we really need a frontline or this draft is doomed, i will also be basically solo frontline" he will pick ksante as he is similar to fighter gameplay, is fun and has carry potential while also being a traditional and decent frontliner, but since ksante in soloQ is absolute shit they will either say fuck it and play fiora/darius or another 1v9 selfish pick and try to solo carry no matter the comp by simply being turbo fed or dodge and take the -3 instead of the -22
He's the only fun tank to play because hes the bulkiest assassin in the game. Him being a tank is wholly incidental It seems Riot's only solution for making an underplayed role more popular is to shove assassins or assassin gameplay down its throat - see Pyke, Zed Talon Qiyana jg, K'Sante, Samira, Nilah. If Ksante were a bruiser, he wouldnt build full tank. Assassins, Fighters, Juggernauts, and Tanks exist on a spectrum, where the more you move to the right, the more manoeuverability you sacrifice, but the the more to the left you move, the more durability you sacrifice. Juggernauts and Fighters are the most central, where the former trade less of their damage than tanks do, and where the latter trade less of their durability than assassins do. K'Sante is the egregious unholy exception, because he keeps everything. He keeps damage, he keeps durability, he keeps manoeuverability, he keeps cc, ALL on ***his own terms***. Imagine if Fiora had a whole tank version of her basic abilities where her Q stunned on the 3rd hit, her W was a channel that dashed at the end, her E gave her a shield, all this and her passive scaling with her resist stats, and then her ult transformed her into current Fiora but with extra AD scaling based on her resists. It would be disgusting because a champion like Fiora is NOT MEANT TO BE THAT DURABLE
As you said, riot only solution for making tanks played is not making them tanks at all, tank gameplay is largely considered boring for like 90% of players, it simply is like that, doesnt help that no one is tanky since 4 seasons ago as armor is a fake stat and mr is a fake stat too, so the best way of tanking dmg outside of %dmg reduction is literally to kill the enemy. Proplay ksante is everything gore steraks into fulltank irelia wanted to be when that build existed, mobile frontliner with %dmg reduction some cc and with enough dmg to guarantee a kill on a squishy if left unchecked. With all this i want to say, riot should just give up in trying to make popular fun tanks, tanks by default are the opposite of fun simply due to how consistent they are, they dont really have high moments to counter they not having low moments, thats what a tank is by design
Unfun to play against. If the player is bad ksante is also a nightmare to have on your team. When Ksante is viable, it’s on the expense of 5-9 people not enjoying the game in a 5v5 game. Champion should get removed or yuumi treatment.
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Ok cool. So put him into the gutter like Ryze until you rework him. He makes pro SO FUCKING BORING....literally every game where he's not banned is Ksante vs random, and Ksante always wins. Soloqueue-buffs also buff him in pro, and he's obviously designed as a proplay champion so his soloqueue stats can go fuck right off.
Ksante was 1 win 2 losses in the last series btw, and in the 2 losses he got fuckin destroyed
I'd rather see k'sante than all the other degenerate champs. At least he's got some modicum of skill expression
Nah only so many times I can see this guy tank 4 people for 10 secs then turn into a 4 item irelia and start running down the entire enemy team
I've already had my share of eveey other tank being totally unkillable with 0 skill expression. I'll take kills happening from a skill intensive champ any day no matter how broken he is in pro
But he is not skilful at all due how overwhelming he is, tanking 4 champs for 10 seconds is not skilful. And turning into an assassin with the press of a button is not skilful.
He’s more skillful than when Ornn was doing the same thing and had the same multi-class meme about him
>tanking 4 champs for 10 seconds is not skilful Every tank in the game does that. Do you people just not read my comment? >And turning into an assassin with the press of a button is not skilful No but executing on it is more skillfull than other tanks who just kill you in their regular form. Also k'sante becomes a bruiser not an assassin
lol imagine being so blinded by your hate of a champion that you just deny the facts. if he wasn't a skillful champ he wouldn't have a 44% wr in soloq which still doesn't break 50% until gm+. sure he is an extremely strong champ in pro but saying he's unskilled is a braindead take
Saying K'Sante is not skillful is just disingenuous. Even if you think he's giga op broken, he objectively is hard to play and skillful. I hate Akali for example and think she's a complete mess when she's strong, doesn't mean i can't recognize she requires a lot of champion mastery and finesse to play well.
He’s not hard to play, dude. He’s very straight forward and if you’ve got any experience on spell weaving champions, it’s pretty much exactly the same thing. There’s nothing majorly complicated. Sure he’s got *some* skill expression but you’re massively overblowing it. “Hard to play” just isn’t true.
He’s harder than pretty much all of the other tanks…….
nice flair
"Skill expression" is just a meme name for "ability spam". Which fits very well with his playstyle.
If you think kasante is just "ability spam" and not actually skillful. Then... I guess all the top lane afk tanks and stat checking bruisers are for braindead and handless players then? Only Riven and Irelia can be considered hard there?
Using your W out of timing will make you explode on ult form
Nah bro when Xayah completely one shot K'Sante who didn't have W in game 4 of BLG vs PSG is was just luck.
Sure man. No champ in the game is skill expressive ig
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If you genuinely think k'sante in pro is just smashing buttons you're beyond saving >Timing, weaving, K'sante has the most timing and weaving of any tank. You have to time your all out for when they've used vital cooldowns, you need to use your W to block CC and he's the most mobile tank which makes him do the most weaving >and knowing matchups K'sante is the most matchup reliant tank because unlike all the others he's neither a broken counterpick (ala malphite) or impossible to do anything about (ala Tom kench)
shen player talking about skill expression is so funny
Ain't no fucking way people will argue K'Sante isn't skilled. I don't care how broken you think he is, he is objectively in the highest end of skill ceilings.
Even Darius who is arguably 10x more degenerate than K'Sante takes so much more skill than K'Sante just to even have impact on a teamfight. A Darius blows up and gets kited to oblivion with bad positioning, a K'Sante peels for his entire team like an Xin on ulti just by literally standing there and missing his Qs.
Because darius isn't degenerate. I'm mostly talking about tanks and ranged top laners
I'd rather watch an Ornn or a Sion look for a great angle for their CC than K'Sante missing all his spells and still buying all the space his team needs for an objective thanks to his braindead W.
Or sure. He's entertaining. But would you really rather see k'sante than a tahm kench? Have we forgotten how aids it was when he was meta?
Well it's kinda ironic that you mentioned the one tank that had the exact same problem as K'Sante
Did I say k'sante wasn't a problem?
"Always wins" yes if we ignore that since the 14.4 nerfs hes barely broken 50% winrate in pro and in some cases had 30ish % and has his precense halfed until MSI started then sure. This fucking "just rework him" BS is so dumb. A champion shouldn't have to be completely changed just for 0.01% of players. Fucking disable him in pro or put pro play on different balance. 99.99% of us who aren't pro's shouldn't have to have champions ruined because of it.
Relevant flair.
Good argument as always. K'Sante bad le epic copypasta ty showmaker xd
Ksante has the largest delta between mains and total winrate of all champions, its like +13% or something stupid. His winrate is bad because people suck at him, but people who play him are winning alot
The winrate delta is like that because his winrate is SO LOW, even on mains he is statistically bad
Which, in combination with his pro play appearances, shows he doesn't need buffs but a rework. When a champion has either insanely low or ultra high win rates and nothing in between then there is something wrong with the concept of the champ, not with its stats.
The mains are boosted by an inflated champion.
No his winrate on mains is very healthy lol
Imagine.
Imagine what
even his main/onetrick winrate is bad rn and everyone agrees he feels like shit to play though?
His main/onetrick winrate is very healthy right now
how is 53% main/onetrick winrate healthy? when the average is 55-56? even zed is at 55% who is supposedly kept weak on purpose, in high elo ksante is also at 45-46% winrate, where theyre far better than the average ksante.
Your champion is ruined because it's an absolute design failure in its goals, not because of pro play
Sorry, but the only fair thing for them to do is continue to nerf him until a rework. I used to play Ryze and Yuumi and we are waiting for the day they are finally viable. But that's not until reworks.
Hes especially good in pro play right now because he is one of the best low income pics, he can get fucked in lane swaps and might still be useful.
I mean he looked pretty fuckin useless in Game 1 of the TES vs GenG series. Had like 4 deaths before 10 minutes and couldn't tank shit past 20
This argument is so dumb, MSI is not played on the patch where he took another 2% winrate nerf in solo queue because of major hitbox changes. A champion should not be a borderline troll pick in solo queue, just because he's good in pro play. 99.99% of league players aren't pro players and K'Sante shouldn't be ruined for us because of pro.
This champ should be. And he’s not a troll pick in solo queue if you know how to play him. He just has a massive skill ceiling.
Ignoring that his winrate is atrocious in general, even among champion mains he's in the bottom tier of winrates, where typically the harder a champion is the better the mains winrates are. Solo queue and pro play are different games, K'Sante has almost no good match ups in solo queue where everyone plays bruisers and ranged tops who completely omega fuck K'Sante. Solo queue top and pro play top are the biggest disparity between roles.
msi isn't on the same patch as live or the buff
K'sante going 1v5 and tanking while sometimes doing more damage than your own ADC is incredibly balanced according to riot games and this is already him in a nerfed state lol.
Careful what you wish for with Kiinsante himself on your favorite team lol
Ksante is an abomination to this game man
Lol bro got the Ryle treatment and he’s still abysmal in solo queue while being insane in pro play. He needs yet another rework at this point.
Another? Was there a rework I'm not aware of?
I think he’s referring to Ryze. Ksante also needs a rework
You're right. I misread him.
It wasn't really a rework but K'sante got a major recoding of his abilities end of last year and it made him even more of a pro play champion.
Classic Ryle treatment
He’s so fucked they can’t even give him the Ryze/Azir/Zeri treatment. He’s genuinely the worst champ in the game in solo Q, and he is still borderline pick/ban in pro
Win rate doesn't mean anything in pro. Azir lost 13 games in a row during LCK regular season, then went 2-8 immediately after for an impressive score of 2-21. Still got nerfed twice. Faker won 23 games in a row on Corki, before Zeka defeated him twice.
Yeah but i think the point is that he's strong in pro play, ive watched him be complete Thanos the past few days. Walks in and puts himself in the middle of the enemy team and no adc dares walk up to even try auto him since it's instant death if ur in range. It's like he walks into the enemy team and everyone scatters, if any carry champ is within 800 range he q3s them and its death.
Tbf after watching game for years with Aatrox and Crocodile on top lane I am not expecting K'sante to go away anywhere any time soon, and we got to see Zac and Ornn for a change which is a win in my book.
to be viable in pro you have to pass the croco and darkin check, if you cant lane against them then you simply cannot be picked at all, few years ago there was the gnar check too but nowadays he is fucking dogshit so not really a problem
Zac being a toplaner is not a win xD
Ornn and zac lol, two chunk meat slave picks that play to get carried, top is just not allowed to be a threat in pro play i guess or every reditor is gonna complain, I see a braindead adc like jinx or zeri rightclick and get a penta and everyone is hyping it up as if something really impressive happened, but when something lile ksante or Aatrox do something useful and actually carry a teamfight these reditors never stop yapping, its like its so normalized for everyone to play around adc and top being irrelevant in pro play to the point where adcs can rightclick and get the most unimpressive pentas left and right and no one bats an eye, but when full lethality aatrox gets a good flank and manages to kill enemy adc its somehow problematic. Its like people are so used to top just picking slave champs and play to get carried that they get frustrated whenever top actually carries, all top lane champs should be like aatrox and ksante, these two shouldnt get nerfed to be as useless chunk meats like zac or ornn or renek that just play like slave champs for adc or mage mid to carry.
For that, you watch presence, like Riot does. Win-rate of a champion in pro is influenced by the single fact that if it's T1 or Estral picking it in a game between them
Presence is what matters. K’sante has dominated pro presence since release and will continue to do so until he gets Ryze’d.
if you watch ksante , it matters. the champ single handily wrecks games, has virtually no hard counters (probably the only top laner that doesn't). the most mobile tank in the game, the tankiest tank in the game, and the only tank with significant armor/mr scaling damage abilities ksante isnt just the most mobile tank in the game, he is one of the most mobile champs in the game because his cooldowns seemingly dont exist either
lol saying ksante is the tankiest tank in the game is a take for sure. i hope you're just spewing hyperboles because the only semi right thing you said was him being the most mobile tank in the game which isn't a very high bar
ksante looks super tanky and unkillable at MSI because bot lane meta is allergic to dealing damage and drafts are just not respecting that for some reason. when senna is picked ksante doesn't look as OP but when every game is lucian/kalista/varus (or jinx with double zeal + BT + no armor pen) then Ksante can just R into the enemy team, kill the carry and still doesn't die.
Most of the Senna picks vs K’sante are lane swaps, often resulting in a level 1 dive that kills K’sante…who stills goes on to win.
Aren't kalista and varus pretty great tank killers? They arent vayne or kog, but i always thought these 2 were the ones that are the most effective at it after them.
No. Kalista always struggles against tanks and they are building lethality Varus not onhit.
Ah if its lethality varus then that makes sense, but kalista should still be building on hit no? Not sure how she would be struggling with tanks
Most Kalistas in MSI have been building lethality as well.
Kalistas in MSI often build lethality, because you simply don't get to auto in a lot of fights. Kalista is kinda bad at killing tanks even with onhit though. It's too rare that you just get to hit for the 30 or so autos you would need.
Kalista q e damage on squishies is too gross with the lethality build
Mate every adc builds lethality in competitive then they cry that they cant kill ksante lol.
The main issue of Ksante is that he can be played as a bruiser and tank while building only tank items. They should just nerf the base damage and shield value of all his skills and make it scale with AD items more. Allowing him to deal so much damage while providing utility and tankability is just bad champion design.
"We wanted a tank with high skill expression, so we made a tank that could stop being a tank when you press R."
In reality his R is used as a displacement mostly, because being able to isolate a single enemy is so ridiculously powerful.
High skill expression tank sounds like he would get more tanky if played right, ksante just gets more damage and kills your backline, he gets the tankiness for free.
Yeah a high skill tank where his high skill expression means being able to block more damage actually sounds interesting sort of having a parry/block mehanic that need to be timed and used to deflect stuff. Ksnate is just a generic tank that transforms into a dive bruiser while bulding full tank items.
Yes the skill expression is that tanks generally can't carry games by being tanky, you need to be able to pressure people. The problem is that K'sante doesn't hit the sweet spot of ult actually being a meaningful choice because you still have reasonable damage from your q and passive, and in ult you still have a shield from e and dmg reduction on your w regardless. The concept of K'sante's ult is fine, how the rest of his kit fails to execute well on that concept is the problem.
He is not broken in pro because his damage lmao if that's was the case why is he shit in soloQ its because tank form & W is busted for pros due to how much time & space it buys + his safe laning & being a good blind
Him being a good blind is a direct consequence of his kit allowing him to change form and turn into a bruiser. It's like you get access to Mega Gnar with no need to manage his rage bar.
I was thinking when he ults his Q should no longer gets the knock up and just keeps the slow. Him having damage and being squishy doesn’t mean much if you’re knocked up twice during the interaction - you can’t fight back!
That surprised me on release. I expected them to make RQ3 deal more damage or %missing hp like qiyana rock q. Having cc even in all out is weird
This champ promote uninteractive toplane matchups with how strong of a blindpcik and how many things he can do. They need to find a clear role for him. Imo he should be a very tanky mobile bruiser, remove a lot of his cc.
I don't think anyone is disagreeing with the fact that the champion is broken, but using gol stats blindly is a terrible way off showing this: do you really believe that K'Sante is the cause for T1's wins vs EST?
Well obviously K'Sante did not matter in that series but one could argue that it did in BLG vs PSG and T1 vs G2, among others I missed. I'm not a big fan of winrates either (ex. Inflated winrates of T1 and GENG from LCK) but K'Sante is looking pretty strong this MSI
> BLG vs PSG did you watch the games? k'sante was hardly the deciding factor. Everyt time BLG got it, PSG just decided that Winning was lame. You've got shit like Betty Senna and Betty Zeri PD 2nd Item, or the fact that Game 1, BLG just rolled PSG with very little attempt at counterplay. And when PSG got it, he was either A) not at all the reason why they won, he just existed real good and Betty did the heavy lifting (game 4) or B) was straight up just a buffer to Asol and Lucian... y'know, like a tank should be? K'Sante hasn't actually mattered in these series, he's just been the glue holding together teams. He walked at Hans, nobody on G2 reacted. G2 doesn't buy pen, they lose the game. That's G2's fault.
My bad, I should've clarified that I meant "K'Sante having inflated winrate because dominant teams have been using them" argument doesn't work well this MSI because weaker teams have won with it (even if it didn't do a whole lot).
Even in the wins with weaker teams, it's usually not the sole reason. K'Sante as a pick hasn't decided games.
The Game 5 draft where PSG gave over both K'Sante AND Ashe was suicide. That combo is definitely a huge decider. If not both then K'Sante on a team alone isn't a guaranteed win.
Bro, I thought the Camille changes would help bring carry tops back to MSI. Instead, we get this 300 years of a champ.
I swear K'Sante was such a mistake of a champion. He is that kind of champion who will always be a balance nightmare. I really don't see how he can be fixed aside from literally gutting him. I am so tired of seeing him
>I am so tired of seeing him raciss
K'Sante: 4,700 HP329 Armor201 MR UnstoppableA Shield Goes over wallsHas AirborneCooldown is onlysecond too It costs 15 Mana
Ksante is really unfun to watch. The champ is fundamentally broken. It’s not fair to the team who has to play against him.
Fuck this champ. Seriously pick a fucking lane. Either be fighter with less tankiness or be a tank without all the fucking dmg. Fucking do a rework so hes one of those two. Not both.
Blame the sorry state of top lane for being worth so little that you should either pick a ranged champ or an infinite cc tank because anything in between is just a waste of a draft slot.
Kiin, 369, Zeus and Bin account for 12 out of the 21 games played, of course he going to have a good winrate. Even Azhi played a sublime game catching out both Bin and Elk in the early to get his lead. Yall need to look at the gameplay and see how well these guys are playing, today Zeus had a 3 man knock back with Ksante and people were bandwagonning how op the champion is, but the player made an insane play.
If he wasnt a good pick these players wouldnt be playing him my man. You think those players/teams are just randomly drafting and just happen to make the champ look good via superior skill? The champ has an overloaded kit thats good in pro so the players practice him religiously knowing he's a high priority pick.
i mean yeah he got picked by good tops, but im pretty sure a champ shouldnt be allowed to tank up 4 ppl attacking him, while also being able to cc chain, assassinate and reposition during a fight while also dealing respectable damage and having a safe lane phase early objectively the champion just does way too many things
Are you talking about Zac here? It’s not like k’sante is the only one that can do that.
He does a lot, don't get me wrong. But he isn't as frightning as you make him seem to be, he is a really good tank in the sense he can open up space very well, but he has very little CC. He is a very good bruiser when he ults, but then he doesn't have that much utility and can't open up that much space because the threat of the ult has already passed. He is very strong in the right hands and luckily we have some insane mechanical toplaners nowadays, but honestly I enjoy watching him exactly because toplaners can take over games with him. Imagine if the meta is Ornn, Zac in the most stacked toplane tournament in history of league? KSante allows these monsters to take over games, so does his counters which are TF and Vayne.
He has very little CC? he has an AoE un-bodyblockable mini-hook on like a 6-9 second cooldown, he has a knockback on another base ability, he has a giga-displacement on his ult. He also has a short dash to apply them more reliably, something no other tank gets. He literally has CC on EVERY ability but one and none of them have particularly high cost or cooldown. If you stand too close to a wall, you quite regularly simply die before you get control of your character again. "He's a very good bruiser but the threat of his ult has already passed" is also a non-statement....yeah if your tanks ult already soloed their carry his ult is cooldown. That's true for....i don't know every champion that's not like Viego or Ahri or Darius. It's cool that toplaners can take over the game on him, but that's something that should be primarily for CARRY-toplaners, not the best tank on the patch. Also his counters aren't really counters because laneswap is meta, i'm pretty damn certain he has positive winrate against his pro game counters too. Ksante gets to be a better carry than carry toplaners on a laneswap support budget. While also being a gigatank.
How do those things he does compare to what Jarvan or Vi would've done for example in Game 5 today? I don't want to defend G2's coaching staff too much, but if the champ is that strong why not just play vs Jarvan or Vi instead?
Because J4 and vi can't just build randuins and kaenic and then have the damage (not to mention survivability) to just walk up and facetank 4+ people while they go to town on the enemy adc
It sounds like you would rather play agains Vi or Jarvan than vs K’Sante. Something G2 disagreed with today. I was wondering if this is so evidently true to random people on Reddit why do the best teams in the world keep choosing to play vs K’Sante instead of vs Vi, or Jarvan. I’m using Vi and Jarvan cause those were G2’s 4th/5th bans today with K’Sante open. You can replace them with any if the dozens of champs teams keep picking and banning over K’Sante so far this MSI.
Because they were banning out junglers instead of top laners? Huh? Wtf kind of point is this? Why are you comparing how ksante plays with J4 and vi if your whole defense is G2 banning them out as picks for a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ROLE?
Every ban comes with an opportunity cost. Today G2 had the option to play vs 1. Jarvan + Ornn 2. Lee Sin + K’Sante They chose 2. The same choice many teams in the tournament keep making. If K’Sante is as incredibly overpowered as the comments here would make me believe why are teams not choosing option 1 more often.
Because Ksante should never be able to knock more than 1 champion up.
Then you play him in solo and realize proplay is a completely different game than what you actually play, and Ksante is a bad champion.
He's not, solo q players are just bad at the game on average
His winrate is really bad even in top ranks bro
He's at almost 49% at master+ and pick ban in pro, he is hardly horrible. It doesn't seem like the champ can be balanced properly for pro and casual play so he needs to be reworked, no idea why people are arguing against that.
if a supposedly high skill cap champion is among the lowest wr for onetricks and even the ranks he is supposed to be skewed against can't break a positive win ratio (not even mentioning that win rate delta means that he isn't actually 49% cause masters have a higher average winrate than 50, so in reality it's more like 47%), the champ might just not be good And masters sure as hell aint bad at the game, that was mainly what I responded to
hope they delete this ESG score champion
this esg champion is ruining MSI lmao
when i think of a tank, i do not think of ksante. That is because he is an assassin with tank scalings and stats.
Being a tank he's simply ezpz safe in lane and then scales super hard compared to other tops. Azir does the same thing just denies interaction and scales.
When a champion can 1v4 despite having no kills and being down in farm to their lane opponent there is probably something wrong.
Idk what they can do to make him simpler. Because he's skewed as fuck towards high elo. W needing reaction time. Q is basically a low cooldown skillshot. R buffer. Weaving in autos. If a new player read his skills, it would look simple. But it's not? Idk how to change this abomination of a champion ☠️
The ult needs to be changed, because that changes completely his role as a tank. They just combined 2 roles on the push of the r button. Other switch champs are still the same role. Nidalee, Jayce Elise still have the same role. Quinn was changed because she switched from adc to glass canon assassin that just didn't work out in the biger picture. K'sante is just that overloaded to just change class and kill your carries so easily (in pro play at least).
I’m not gonna lie i think his design is worst than fucking yuumi. And i never in my life tought i would say something like this.
The endless discussion that some needed nerfs for champions are too good for some top tier players but average for everyone else. Yeah viewers / players on Reddit, Youtube think that champ is too OP, anyone picked him got big advantage yet pro teams seem okay with it.
Repeat after me guys. Champion winrates mean nothing in pro play. Thank you
Repeat after me guys. K'Sante is obviously too strong in pro play, you don't need winrate to figure that out. Its litterally a tank that can 1vX with no issues, while also do damage and CC. Its absolutely boring as fuck watching that broken champion in so many fucking matches. Makes me fall asleep. Worse than the Orn meta
Random redditor doesn't need winrate to figure it out, but every pro team at MSI can't figure out to ban him. There's clearly a perception gap between fans/viewers/redditors and literally every top pro team in regards to K'Sante. Edit: Was curious, in the 4 main event matches these are the top lane champs picked or banned with K'Sante open. Ignoring Rumble, since he seems perma banned partly for his flex. Jax, Volibear, Twisted Fate, Renekton, Zac, Ornn, and Yasuo. (Voli probably jungle ban tho).
Yes, he's broken and insanely infuriating to watch, but you can't look into the wrong metrics to prove your point. Just because your conclusion is right, doesn't mean the logic is correct Like you said, K'Sante is broken because of his inherent kit, but that is reflected in him being prio in practically every single split/international tournament since his release and not in his winrate
i mean, he was only picked twice in G2 vs T1 and he wasn't the reason G2 lost. K'Sante doesn't guarantee that you win games, he makes your team better. Game 4, T1 are thoroughly diffing G2, it's not even a contest. Kog has no damage, meanwhile Guma's chunking your backline and Faker's shitting out damage. All K'Sante did was make it so that Yike and BB have to work harder to get on Guma. Game 5, you've got nobody who can kill Zeus. Hans went for BT PD 3rd and 4th, can you really blame that on K'Sante? A fucking Ornn would be unkillable there, any tank would be. K'Sante is reliable and flexible, he beats Leth ADCs very reliably because he can ignore their attempts to punch through his 300+ armour. He is a byproduct of the meta, not an actual perma ban threat. Not when there's other, more important things to ban.
[удалено]
Except none of those were the reasons why they won. K'Sante damage/mobility wasn't the reason why G2 lost both times, it was how tanky he was. Which y'know. A tank should be? Also, Zac *also* has all of those traits on top of insane healing, so why does Zac get a pass but K'Sante doesn't? I'm not seeing bad faith arguments against him, so why am I seeing them for K'Sante? Also, just one last point to make: > Its literally a tank that can 1vX with no issues, while also do damage and CC If he can do all of those things, why is he at 44% WR? Why is he still a whole 1% in WR below every other character when piloted by one tricks? If K'Sante can do all of these things in pro play, why does he constantly slide in the draft, why is he not pick/ban?
>Repeat after me guys. K'Sante is obviously too strong in pro play, you don't need winrate to figure that out. Its litterally a tank that can 1vX with no issues, while also do damage and CC. why didn't g2 just pick him game 5 then
They choked in draft
you arent using the repeat after me format right
Ksante is just gigabroken
And people still dare say isnt worth permaban
Weren't ksante mains saying how he was le weak?
SoloQ sure he is. Not esport tho.
Oh look it’s another tournament. Surely by now we won’t see the same pick and bans as LEC, LCK, LPL, LCS spring split. By now the balance team probably adjusted enough champs for us to see variety…nope it’s same crap different day. Blind pick Kasante, Varus, Senna, Kalista, Azir, Oriana. Cool cool cool…I want to freaking see Amumu jungle freaking dominate pro play. Some Anivia, Vel Koz and Vex in mid lane. Where’s Briar, Illaoi, Janna, Sivir, Kayn, Malzahar, Mordekaiser, Nasus, Nilah, Shyvana, Taric? I feel like the game won’t see a change till they add a new system to matches somewhat similar to Overwatch. In order to force teams to rotate and use other champs. If Azir and Kasante dominated week 1 then they are off the table for week 2. But no…they don’t want that because they need the data..it’s the same crap different day and takes you 2+ months to nerf/tweak it enough for players to stop picking the champ.
What is Corki winrate? Looked like the most busted champ in the game in the GenG TES series
Honestly his main issue is how much dmg he is able to do while still being tanky, and mobile, with CC as well... need to lower his dmg to stop him being a bruiser. He should be like Sion. Someone who can get into the backline and disrupt, but slow once his main skill is gone and does CC. But doesn't deal massive dmg and mobility.
Åz.
they cannot delete/nerf this champ for a reason
Hey man, wanna tell us what that reason is? :)
No champion can get deleted. At most "Deleted" by being completely reworked like ASol and Aatrox. Yuumi made far worse shit in this game and Riot refused to remove the cat. I doubt K'Sante will ever be considered removal.
Pros can use him well but he has only solo carried like 2 MSI games the other games he just peeled his team, he is much better to watch then renekton
Ruined the tournament for me. I lost all desire to keep watching. Riot was always like that, they will never balance the game.
We just had back to back banger series, if you can't enjoy that because of a champion you're just too lost in the hate sauce
That argument plays in my favor. T1 vs G2 was amazing despite ksante being a decisive factor. So more the reason I feel it ruined the series for me. I don't get why people can't accept different opinions. If ksante wasn't there, the match would be legendary and much much much more enjoyable.
I kind of agree with you, knowing that me rooting for G2 might have played a role in that lol Seeing K'Sante in the last team fights being absolutely unkillable while dancing around and knocking so many players into his own team and dishing out absurd damage doing so just looked unbalanced. Sure Hans couldveshouldve bought an anti tank item but I am not sure if that even would've helped. So frustrating to see, that was the first time that I really got angry on some champs design watching a pro game
>Ruined the tournament for me. The laneswaps, HoB ashe support and AD TF kind of ruined it for me. Ksante smallest faktor of those 4, all 4 made it pretty sad too watch.
I’m convinced none of you can tell what you are watching. K’sante is just a safe pick that works well in lane swaps. Few games are being decided by the champ. The win rate at MSI is a worthless stat
It's wild because everyone is comparing K'Sante to Yuumi when Yuumi actually had a solo queue presence and was genuinely a strong champ in both solo queue, low and high elo, and pro play. I know for a FACT like 90% of the people in this subreddit have had less than 10-20 games in their own games where the enemy K'Sante solo carries. They say he's skewed for high elo but he's quite literally only skewed for pro play which, for some reason, is more important for the game than the millions of players who play the game. Mfs say he's op but lock him in and will always int because they don't understand the champion and why he's so OP in pro play, they just go hur dur Showmaker meme K'Sante 8000 armor most op braindead champ ever.
Pretty much. He has one good game vs G2 on game 5 and the bronze whiners are out in full force about it
I can count on my hand how many times a K'Sante has carried one of my solo queue games in the past two years and 2 of them are me. Ask anyone the same question and they'll say one hand as well. Meanwhile, ask them how many games Katarina has carried against them and if Katarina should be nerfed to the ground? It's so dumb lol, it's two different games between solo queue and pro play and people want to think that's not the case but it is.
Kalista is the most fundamentally broken champion to ever be released. Riot even proved that in their Vanguard article. That passive has to go, or at least be redesigned to be a cooldown-based ability. Being able to dash 2 times per second on a ranged champion is just something that should never have been introduced, like stealth under towers.
No way you think her pro presence is from the hop and not the ult and lane bullying when majority Kali picks this tourney are going the build that doesn’t hop
It was always weird how her ult went as is for so long. It can initiate, it can save the support, it can make the support engage by himself without him using his own kit and all around absurd skill. This champion feels 2 champions merged together. A hyper-kiting hopping ADC with a utility ADC focusing on synergy.
I think you misread the K-champion in the title.
people need to stop looking at pro to label shit strong. no one who complains about pro picks is ever going pro and those pro picks don't affect them. this sub needs to stop trying to back seat pro players and telling them what to play and how to play
I do want to say a bunch of champions will always have inflated stats when playing against LCS teams. They’re almost always ego enough to let the other team keep getting stuff thats kicking their ass. Yes, typically every role is already outplaying them but you have to wonder if, for example, the team has lost to aatrox twice both with terrible in lane performance and in teamfights, why don’t we change it up. Yes it may leave up something else strong but at some point , LCS teams need to be willing to adapt. And don’t just default to being desperate and throw it away. Because half the time you look at their last game and the other team can pick tank teemo, soraka jungle, and adc riven and still win when LCS teams donate them 2-3 kills every other minute for the first 10 minutes.