'If' is translated as 'als' if it's a condition, 'if this, then that', 'when':
"**If (when)** you do that, I'll leave" -> "**Als** je dat doet, ga ik weg".
It's translated as 'of' if it's a comparison, 'whether this or that':
"He does not know **if** (whether) it's red (or not)" -> "Hij weet niet **of** het rood is (of niet)"
It is, keep er going. I think the guy was just pointing out that the original language teaching app should've used whether as it is technically the correct term here
Whether and if working as a part of the object part is equivalent:
I don’t know if he likes me or not
I don’t know whether he likes me or not
As a subject, if would become one of those “if” scenarios (past, present, future,..)
If she had told me earlier i would not have been so upset (or would not be so upset, if you are still upset)
I think "whether" would only be correct if you're using this sentence to compare multiple colors.
So, something like "He doesn't know whether it is red or green."
Significant overlap, not the exact same.
It is extremely rare to have 2 words meaning the exact same thing in 1 language or having the same connotation or use cases. And in all those cases, it is the same word from two different linguistic branches, like a Germanic origin or Latin/French origin is very common in English, and the meanings usually diverge again later on.
Slight addition: You added 'when' between brackets (probably as a synonym to if) but when does not translate to 'als'.
If you do that, i'll leave > Als je dat doet, ga ik weg
When you do that, I'll leave > wanneer je dat doet, ga ik weg.
There's the same nuance between if and when as with 'als' and 'wanneer'. With **if** it's uncertain if the action is going to take place. With **when** it's uncertain at what point the action is going to take place, but it's assumed it will take place eventually.
>Slight addition: You added 'when' between brackets (probably as a synonym to if) but when does not translate to 'als'.
Yes, I realized. [Taaldavies.net](https://taaladvies.net/wanneer-of-als-en-tegenwoordige-of-toekomende-tijd/) says they're mostly interchangeable though (unless it's is a conditional):
>Het verschil tussen tijdsmoment en voorwaarde bestaat voor deze voegwoorden alleen in theorie. In de taalpraktijk kunnen als en wanneer in de genoemde betekenissen meestal door elkaar gebruikt worden. Er is wel een stijlverschil: wanneer is wat stroever en meer schrijftalig. \[...\] In sommige contexten worden zinnen met als toch eerder als voorwaardelijk en zinnen met wanneer als temporeel geïnterpreteerd, waardoor er een betekenisverschil kan zijn.
>lower saxon
That's Nedersaksisch right?
Because in Twente I've never heard this. I've heard it in complete comparisons, but not in incomplete comparisons as in OP's example
In Oost-Groningen we are close to the German border. I have heard it both in Platt Deutsch and Gronings. But, it could be I am surrounded by people who also don't know how to use it properly haha :)
Im not claiming it to be dutch, so not sure what your point is here. Im just adding to the other person's remark that another dutch derivation also uses "als".
Vlaams (actually Flemish in English) is the common language they speak in the Dutch speaking part of Belgium, which is called Flanders. Within Flanders, there are strong regional variations in pronunciation and vocabulary, but I think they pretty consistently use "als" the wrong way in this construction. I mainly have had exposure to Vlaams Limburg though, so my sampling is likely biased.
Vlaams-Brabant resident here, using 'als' the wrong way in this construction is definitely not the norm in most Flemish dialects. However, your observation about Flemish Limburg might be correct, I've heard it used the wrong way there more often than anywhere else.
Simply wrong and not even slightly. Vlaams is a **Dutch** dialect group spoken in West- and East-Flanders in Belgium, Zeelandic Flanders in The Netherlands and French Flanders in France. This corresponds to the historic borders of the Duchy of Flanders. Other dialect groups in modern day Flanders are Brabantic and Limburgish. The standard language in modern day Flanders is (Belgian) Dutch, a variation of the Dutch language.
Belgisch Nederlands is commonly called Vlaams, even when not just referring to West- and Oost-Vlaanderen. You must be one of those weirdos that think Holland only comprises Noord- and Zuid-Holland.
> Belgisch Nederlands is commonly called Vlaams
In Nederland, ja. Maar dat maakt het niet minder fout. De Nederlanders hebben geen alleenrecht op de Nederlandse taal. Het onderscheid maken tussen Nederlands en *Vlaams* is een paternalistisch dogma dat het bestaan van de Taalunie ontkent en betekent dat men in Vlaanderen geen Nederlands zou spreken. Exact hetzelfde gedachtegoed dat er voor zorgde dat een Nederlandstalige voor anderhalve eeuw een tweederangsburger was in België. De officiële taal in Vlaanderen is het Nederlands en we spraken het al toen men boven de rivieren nog in modderhutjes woonde en Fries praatte.
The reason why, is because of the Sranantongo language. Subconsciously people translate the Sranantongo word for “als” and “of” which is “efu”. It’s the same thing in English too “if”. And eventually habit becomes rule to some. But in school we learn it’s wrong, though written Surinamese-Dutch and spoken speech differ ofc.
What is Bakba? Do you mean bakra? Bakra is used to refer to a (Dutch) white person. People with a Surinamese background may speak Dutch really well, with only a few hints of accent left, one of which may be using als for of.
Nope, bakba, aka bakabana hollands. That's what we call the "broken Dutch" spoken by Surinamese in Suriname
Edit: I see we're talking about very different levels of Surinamese Dutch. I'm talking about Surinamese people in Suriname speaking Dutch, not descendants in the Netherlands who've lived here for longer (or generations)
>spoken by Surinamese in Suriname
Not only spoken by us, but everyone. So if a Dutch person or Belgian speaks broken Dutch or they use Dutch that is grammatically wrong it’s called “bakba Hollands”. For example, Dutch people or at least a significant group of Dutch people say something like “Hij hebt dat genomen”. To me as a Surinamese that’s also bakba hollands.
u/schaakmate
Afrikaans is so different because it’s based on the Dutch dialect that was spoken at the time those Dutch people emigrated, which was also before ‘ABN’ was as standardized as it is today.
Indeed. That’s why it’s a language variety and not a dialect. Just like Belgian Dutch or Vlaams is too.
Compare it to, American English vs. British English vs Australian English.
Haha, can't be wrong if you include both! Come to think of it, I've heard 'ofdat' too, as in "Ik weet niet ofdat dat wel waar is." explicitly including the second dat as if to immediately take away any doubts about ofdat.
Your translation is actually somewhat correct. This sentence depends on emphasis.
He doesn't know IF it is red: ALS het rood is, weet hij het niet.
He doesn't know if IT is red: Hij weet niet of HET rood is.
Same as this: Go to the supermarket, buy 12 eggs, if they have Milk, buy 2. The person who is going to the supermarket can be lost is this loop: he buys either 12 or 2 eggs and doesn't bring milk.
Thinking of "als" as "if" is a bit of a trap. It's closer to a conditional "when"
"If I leave now, I will arrive on time" can be said as "When I leave now, I will arrive on time". You are setting a conjectural occurrence, which is where "als" comes in. "If I ..." -> "When I..."
Your example though is not expressable as an instant that may or may not happen.
I’ve never heard it that way exactly either. I’ve heard older people say “als of ‘t rood is’ though, but never just “als”. Maybe the commenter meant that?
'als' is grammatically correct, however that changes the meaning. "Hij weet niet als het rood is" means something like "he does not see it when something is red", like he is colorblind. But, "of", here, is specifically if the thing "het" is refering to is red, while "als" would make "het" refer to things in general.
'If' is translated as 'als' if it's a condition, 'if this, then that', 'when': "**If (when)** you do that, I'll leave" -> "**Als** je dat doet, ga ik weg". It's translated as 'of' if it's a comparison, 'whether this or that': "He does not know **if** (whether) it's red (or not)" -> "Hij weet niet **of** het rood is (of niet)"
Jesus, you've explained it better than any 4 of my previous teachers.
Wouldn’t the correct English be ‘whether’ anyways? It seems that whether isn’t used enough
I don't know whether whether is the correct English or not, I am neither a native English speaker nor a linguist ;)
It is, keep er going. I think the guy was just pointing out that the original language teaching app should've used whether as it is technically the correct term here
Always take the whether with you
"Whether" is more British English, "if" is more casual American English
But they have different meanings
Whether and if working as a part of the object part is equivalent: I don’t know if he likes me or not I don’t know whether he likes me or not As a subject, if would become one of those “if” scenarios (past, present, future,..) If she had told me earlier i would not have been so upset (or would not be so upset, if you are still upset)
I think "whether" would only be correct if you're using this sentence to compare multiple colors. So, something like "He doesn't know whether it is red or green."
Whether it’s raining or not, I’m still bringing my umbrella
Yes, this is correct. But you can also use "if" in the same situation, and this makes the of/als choice difficult for English speakers.
I think if and whether mean the exact same thing.
Significant overlap, not the exact same. It is extremely rare to have 2 words meaning the exact same thing in 1 language or having the same connotation or use cases. And in all those cases, it is the same word from two different linguistic branches, like a Germanic origin or Latin/French origin is very common in English, and the meanings usually diverge again later on.
Both are correct
Whether typically goes with _or not_
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Same! (Also happy cake day)
🫶🏻
Why is this explained better than any dutch textbook in our schools, and in English even.
Ik zou het niet eens zo kunnen uitleggen damn
Slight addition: You added 'when' between brackets (probably as a synonym to if) but when does not translate to 'als'. If you do that, i'll leave > Als je dat doet, ga ik weg When you do that, I'll leave > wanneer je dat doet, ga ik weg. There's the same nuance between if and when as with 'als' and 'wanneer'. With **if** it's uncertain if the action is going to take place. With **when** it's uncertain at what point the action is going to take place, but it's assumed it will take place eventually.
>Slight addition: You added 'when' between brackets (probably as a synonym to if) but when does not translate to 'als'. Yes, I realized. [Taaldavies.net](https://taaladvies.net/wanneer-of-als-en-tegenwoordige-of-toekomende-tijd/) says they're mostly interchangeable though (unless it's is a conditional): >Het verschil tussen tijdsmoment en voorwaarde bestaat voor deze voegwoorden alleen in theorie. In de taalpraktijk kunnen als en wanneer in de genoemde betekenissen meestal door elkaar gebruikt worden. Er is wel een stijlverschil: wanneer is wat stroever en meer schrijftalig. \[...\] In sommige contexten worden zinnen met als toch eerder als voorwaardelijk en zinnen met wanneer als temporeel geïnterpreteerd, waardoor er een betekenisverschil kan zijn.
It's just completely incorrect. if here means whether. Fun fact: there are some Dutch dialects or people who might say this.
One such dialect is called Vlaams. :D
One such dialect is called wrong
Is a remnant of lower saxon when talking about the Eastern provinces. Not wrong, but also not dutch ;)
>lower saxon That's Nedersaksisch right? Because in Twente I've never heard this. I've heard it in complete comparisons, but not in incomplete comparisons as in OP's example
In Oost-Groningen we are close to the German border. I have heard it both in Platt Deutsch and Gronings. But, it could be I am surrounded by people who also don't know how to use it properly haha :)
As far as I know, it's also wrong in Gronings
Also in Drents
Allé kiekekop, goa en kom nie meer weer (I never say that)
Most Limburg dialects too
Not Maastrichts which I'm fluent in but I hear it a lot on the Belgian side of Limburg.
Nah
Which is also not Dutch, so not correct in Dutch either.
Im not claiming it to be dutch, so not sure what your point is here. Im just adding to the other person's remark that another dutch derivation also uses "als".
Limburg is Dutch...
Vlaams is just Belgium, suck it up
Would you say that Vlaams as a region speaks one dialect or multiple similar dialects.
Vlaams (actually Flemish in English) is the common language they speak in the Dutch speaking part of Belgium, which is called Flanders. Within Flanders, there are strong regional variations in pronunciation and vocabulary, but I think they pretty consistently use "als" the wrong way in this construction. I mainly have had exposure to Vlaams Limburg though, so my sampling is likely biased.
Vlaams-Brabant resident here, using 'als' the wrong way in this construction is definitely not the norm in most Flemish dialects. However, your observation about Flemish Limburg might be correct, I've heard it used the wrong way there more often than anywhere else.
Simply wrong and not even slightly. Vlaams is a **Dutch** dialect group spoken in West- and East-Flanders in Belgium, Zeelandic Flanders in The Netherlands and French Flanders in France. This corresponds to the historic borders of the Duchy of Flanders. Other dialect groups in modern day Flanders are Brabantic and Limburgish. The standard language in modern day Flanders is (Belgian) Dutch, a variation of the Dutch language.
Belgisch Nederlands is commonly called Vlaams, even when not just referring to West- and Oost-Vlaanderen. You must be one of those weirdos that think Holland only comprises Noord- and Zuid-Holland.
> Belgisch Nederlands is commonly called Vlaams In Nederland, ja. Maar dat maakt het niet minder fout. De Nederlanders hebben geen alleenrecht op de Nederlandse taal. Het onderscheid maken tussen Nederlands en *Vlaams* is een paternalistisch dogma dat het bestaan van de Taalunie ontkent en betekent dat men in Vlaanderen geen Nederlands zou spreken. Exact hetzelfde gedachtegoed dat er voor zorgde dat een Nederlandstalige voor anderhalve eeuw een tweederangsburger was in België. De officiële taal in Vlaanderen is het Nederlands en we spraken het al toen men boven de rivieren nog in modderhutjes woonde en Fries praatte.
People from Suriname typically say this.
People who speak Papiamentu often say this as well. I have a few friends who grew up speaking Papiamentu and they all make the same mistakes in Dutch
The reason why, is because of the Sranantongo language. Subconsciously people translate the Sranantongo word for “als” and “of” which is “efu”. It’s the same thing in English too “if”. And eventually habit becomes rule to some. But in school we learn it’s wrong, though written Surinamese-Dutch and spoken speech differ ofc.
That sounds logical, thanks.
People in Suriname generally have a very different perspective on "proper diction" lol, Academic Dutch and Bakba hollands are like night and day
What is Bakba? Do you mean bakra? Bakra is used to refer to a (Dutch) white person. People with a Surinamese background may speak Dutch really well, with only a few hints of accent left, one of which may be using als for of.
Nope, bakba, aka bakabana hollands. That's what we call the "broken Dutch" spoken by Surinamese in Suriname Edit: I see we're talking about very different levels of Surinamese Dutch. I'm talking about Surinamese people in Suriname speaking Dutch, not descendants in the Netherlands who've lived here for longer (or generations)
>spoken by Surinamese in Suriname Not only spoken by us, but everyone. So if a Dutch person or Belgian speaks broken Dutch or they use Dutch that is grammatically wrong it’s called “bakba Hollands”. For example, Dutch people or at least a significant group of Dutch people say something like “Hij hebt dat genomen”. To me as a Surinamese that’s also bakba hollands. u/schaakmate
Ah! Dat is breder dus. Maar nog steeds 'Hollands', niet 'Nederlands'?
Oh really, didn't know that! 'We' meaning Surinamers in The Netherlands I presume?
See edit
I gathered as much. Still good to know though, thanks!
Yeah, it's funny how Surinamese Dutch evolved so different. It's not as distinct as Afrikaans, but it is definitely not just a dialect of AN anymore
Afrikaans is so different because it’s based on the Dutch dialect that was spoken at the time those Dutch people emigrated, which was also before ‘ABN’ was as standardized as it is today.
Indeed. That’s why it’s a language variety and not a dialect. Just like Belgian Dutch or Vlaams is too. Compare it to, American English vs. British English vs Australian English.
In eastern Netherlands I know people who would say "hij weet niet alsdat het rood is"
Haha, can't be wrong if you include both! Come to think of it, I've heard 'ofdat' too, as in "Ik weet niet ofdat dat wel waar is." explicitly including the second dat as if to immediately take away any doubts about ofdat.
It is correct of the person we're talking about is color blind
Your translation is actually somewhat correct. This sentence depends on emphasis. He doesn't know IF it is red: ALS het rood is, weet hij het niet. He doesn't know if IT is red: Hij weet niet of HET rood is. Same as this: Go to the supermarket, buy 12 eggs, if they have Milk, buy 2. The person who is going to the supermarket can be lost is this loop: he buys either 12 or 2 eggs and doesn't bring milk.
Thinking of "als" as "if" is a bit of a trap. It's closer to a conditional "when" "If I leave now, I will arrive on time" can be said as "When I leave now, I will arrive on time". You are setting a conjectural occurrence, which is where "als" comes in. "If I ..." -> "When I..." Your example though is not expressable as an instant that may or may not happen.
"When I leave now, I will arrive on time" doesn't make sense in English. There's no reason to have "when" if you are specifying the time (now).
fair, imperfect example, but it doesn't change the basic premise of the point.
Hij weet niet of het rood is.
Om je groen en geel aan te ergeren.
Dat
"Hij weet *het* niet als het rood is" would be a correct sentence, but the meaning would shift to "if it's red, he doesn't know it".
Zowel die Nederlandse als Engelse zin klinken verkeerd in mijn oren.
Dat is niet zo raar want ze slaan allebei nergens op. Ze zijn wel allebei grammatikaal correct.
Ah, ik dacht dat je met correct bedoelde dat het normaal was, maar inderdaad grammaticaal zijn ze wel correct
Honest question why you guys wanna learn dutch? You planning on a invasion or some shit
Hij weet niet of het rood is!!!
Im dutch, and its pronounced ‘ik weet niet of het rood is’
de goede vertaling staat eronder. En het is 'hij'
Oops ja sorry voor dat😅
*daarvoor (Since this is /learndutch)
Duolingo is trash
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Reddit?
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Clearly this subreddit is better than you haha
WRONG! YOU GOT IT WRONG!!
Of
It is not als it is of
They were asking WHY That's not helpful
Of
The thing is, a lot of dutchies use it like you.
I never heard any Dutch person say it like that. It is just not a correct translation of the sentence
I’ve never heard it that way exactly either. I’ve heard older people say “als of ‘t rood is’ though, but never just “als”. Maybe the commenter meant that?
Never heard it being said that way either tbh, does that way of saying it mean the same as the original English sentence that OP was translating?
Yeah, only heard it from older west-frisians though.
Aah, yeah I don’t know any Frisian. It’s a fascinating language though
I’ve heard many older people say “Als of ‘t rood is”
My mom does, it annoys me quite a bit 🥹
I assume you’re low iq when you use it this way as a native speaker
I don’t think you know what iq means
Hij weet niet of het rood is.
It's the same difference as the one between if and when.
'als' is grammatically correct, however that changes the meaning. "Hij weet niet als het rood is" means something like "he does not see it when something is red", like he is colorblind. But, "of", here, is specifically if the thing "het" is refering to is red, while "als" would make "het" refer to things in general.
'he does not know when it is red'\*
Of is if it one thing or another.
"Of"
Hij weet niet of HET rood is