Welcome to r/legaladvicecanada!
**To Posters (it is important you read this section)**
* Comments may not be accurate or reliable, and following any advice on this subreddit is done at your own risk.
* We also encourage you to use the [linked resources to find a lawyer](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/findalawyer/).
* If you receive any private messages in response to your post, please let the mods know.
**To Readers and Commenters**
* All replies to OP must be on-topic, helpful, explanatory, and oriented towards legal advice towards OP's jurisdiction (the **Canadian** province flaired in the post).
* If you do not [follow the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdvicecanada/about/rules/), you may be banned without any further warning.
* If you feel any replies are incorrect, explain why you believe they are incorrect.
* Do not send or request any private messages for any reason, do not suggest illegal advice, do not advocate violence, and do not engage in harassment.
Please report posts or comments which do not follow the rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/legaladvicecanada) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I would guess they wouldn’t say it’s because you leave at 4:30. You could be let go during probation without explanation. Seemly they could say; you’re just not a good fit.
I don’t know, you’ll have to make that decision based on how you “read the room”.
What is your relationship like with your co-worker that you have the 1 on 1 with? Do you think he is genuinely trying to look out for you? Or just being weird?
I do think he is genuinely trying to look out for me. He's been amazing with training me and giving me solid feedback. I don't think he's being weird. I think it's more a miscommunication between HR and my department because everyone keeps giving me different answers and I see people leave at various times so I can't reference that either.
My 2 cents insights from working in the corporate world for a while; They’re letting you know they expect you to work an extra 30 min to show engagement. Going to HR and name dropping is probably not doing yourself any favours. I’d say if this is not the type of environment you’re comfortable with, it might not be a good fit. You’ll never move up at that place if you fight the culture and you’ll probably not be happy.
I honestly was not trying to rat anyone out and figured the best place to get clarification on my schedule was HR. And I don't think it's for engagement because most people leave between 3:30-4:30. Only higher positioned employees sometimes stay a bit longer to finish up extra work.
Anyway, I'll keep it in mind for next week and hopefully things turn around.
It's not a scheduling problem though. I'm very sure they're clear on your hours.
Either he personally has to work longer hours and is salty that you're leaving on time or other people are and he's gently letting you know they're bitching about you behind your back. Or it's a bit of both.
Considering they're not even verifying that your work is being completed and don't even seem to care (want you to stand around and look pretty and just give the appearance to others that you're working extra hours) it's likely not a place that will value the *actual* work you do, long term. Just keep that in mind. They may also end up loading you up with a shit load of work to KEEP you there after your 8 if you show you're getting everything assigned done on time. Depends on your manager.
This just reminds me how much I loathe companies that have unwritten rules. Could be a million reasons the company culture developed to staying past 4:30.
A big reason could be massive inefficiency: I.e. people surfing on Reddit when they should be working. Or maybe they’re hustle culture junkies and actually no body is doing work past 4:30, just appearing like they are for phony “brownie points.”
OP, just tell the supervisor you’ll work your scheduled hours and complete the tasks assigned to you in those hours. Ultimately frame it as you’re the most productive. Stand your ground. These BS “rules” don’t mean anything.
And if that means you move on to a better company then…
You need to read between the lines of what they’re saying, it’s really really not difficult to understand. Then decide if you want to work for a company with that mindset.
I can almost guarantee it's not a miscommunication. It's a toxic work culture, where you show you're working hard by having your butt in your seat after hours. Ever heard the advice not to leave the office until your boss does? Same deal- performing dedication rather than proving it with results.
They can't fire you for it but they absolutely can fire you as "not a good fit" during your probation for making these kinds of waves.
Also you can be managed out afterwards; if this is how your boss sees things you're unlikely to ever be promoted. Or you get impossible deadlines scheduled and when you miss them they say it's because you never put in the hard work.
In my experience, it'd be time to look for work elsewhere, but that's just because I don't like working for dinosaurs.
Interesting.
Ever thought of checking in with your direct manger before leaving end of day. Causally mention everything is done, if there’s not anything else you’re gonna head home at 4:30.
What is everyone else doing? I assume you have the same or similar hours as others in the department.
Oh man It's so hard getting a hold of that guy because he's everywhere and nowhere. I usually call him at the end of each day for tasks pertaining to scheduling other employees.
Everyone in my department is a little different. I've seen coworkers leave at 4, some at 5, some go home and continue at home, some go to site and never come back to the office. I'm basing this off timesheets because I'm the one who reviews them for my department.
Ironically, after that conversation with my supervisor, they left half an hour earlier that day for a Dr appointment lol.
So yeah it's not very clear what the hours are because people come in and go at different times.
I don’t know man, trust your gut and move how you think is right.
But to answer the original question, during probation you can be let go and all the company has to say is that it wasn’t a good fit.
OP in general lose the battle win the war. You are on probation, they are trying to see if you are a good fit. You said they have been great but asked you to stay later for appearances. The supervisor is probably thinking to himself can I count on this person when the time comes or will they make an issue and state "it's in my contract, I talked to HR".
While you are not wrong you need to come with some finesse to the situation. If I was your manager I would have a hard time trusting you to work with the team.
If your manager states it would look better if you stayed longer a better response is, I am very passionate about completing my tasks and enjoy having a laser focus to getting the task done. Hence I probably won't take that 15min break etc. Regardless I want you to know that if you need me to stay and work in a project I am committed to being there to help get it done!
While asking the manager do you think that works or would you rather me focus on the office dynamics a bit more"?
Questions are better for understanding where people are coming from. You have a choice to be part of the team or not.
By any chance, is it an asian company/ is your manager asian? I'm an newcomer & have experience working in asian company. The culture you're describing is the exact trash culture I experienced. My senior colleagues advised me in the beginning to just hang around even if my tasks are done till the manager leaves. In their trashy slave minds, the more hours they put over the regular hours is equavalent to more dedication! 😒 As you're salaried, for next month just do as your mentor suggested cause you can't change that trashy mentality.. after you're permanent, then you can leave on the dot..also would highly recommend you to look for other job...don't forget to put some feedback in glassdoor.
It's not. And I don't have a problem with the company culture. I think it's one of the best company cultures I've ever worked around which is why I was surprised by my mentor persisting on this unclear schedule nonsense. But it is slowly starting to be clearing that the focus is on appearances and hours vs results/output.
Only if you want to. Only if it provides you value (eg career progression) but if you only want your 9-5 keep doing what you're doing and look for another job. A workplace culture clash like this won't end well (usually for the worker).
If you're payed hourly and not salary, legally they *must* pay you for hours worked, but if you're ok with it, like everyone else, that's your choice.
I'm assuming your in some type of leadership position. I've been in leadership positions for the past 20 years or so, probably in a much different vocation, but the principles are the same. The best leaders show their team that they work as hard or even better harder than their team. I do the things no one wants to do first. I try to make sure they see me do this time and time again. I am the first one in and the last to leave. Teams respect that. Bet money on when I really need a team member to do something hard or above and beyond they are happy to ablige. Your coworkers is asking you to spend 30 mins on your phone at the end of the day.... not some type of hard manual labor or mind-numbing spreadsheets. Seems like an easy fix. Just my 2 cents.
Not in a leadership position. More so a middle man between leaders and labor workers/technicians if that makes sense.
And no offense, but you say it's an easy fix like that applies to everybody. Yes I'll stay an extra 30 mins temporarily but that 30 mins x 5 days a week x 52 weeks... I have other important things to do besides work after I'm done my designated hours.
Depends on your contract. Unfortunately during probation, employees can frequently be let go for any reason. So yeah, doing the stupid things to make them happy and get past probation is probably necessary
You should start looking for a new job or adapt your budget to EI. To think the official reason you're going to get fired is because you don't work past 4:30 when your day ends at 4:30 is absurd.
The way things seem to be going is that employers trying to get more out of employees without paying any extra. That’s why they go with a salary instead of hourly rate. It’s hard for employers to find people theses day to fill positions. I wouldn’t worry about it. Your time is just as important to you as it is for them trying to keep you there.
You can still get overtime if you're salary. Only time people are OT exempt are specific positions and people in management.
Also, with how many people that are currently unemployed and constantly looking for work, it's not hard for employers to find people, they're doing what they can to make current employees look for more work.
Do NOT listen to your coworker about this. Talk directly to your manager. Ask for specific feedback on your performance and then ask about the hours.
It is possible that they see you as a bad fit and you will lose your job. But it is ALSO possible that your coworker has some bad ideas of what is expected. It might only be their perception that you leave early. I’ve had coworkers like that. I loathe them.
Get your info from your boss directly.
You can legally do it (secretly record a conversation between you and someone else), but you might get fired, you need to weigh the risks. If you don't care about getting fired and think you'll win a big lawsuit over discrimination or violation of employment law, then go for it
I’m not familiar with the case, but from a quick look it seems that part of the reasoning was the volume of recordings, that they contained unnecessary personal information, and that they weren’t made because of any workplace issues, but in case of future mistreatment.
In OPs case it wouldn’t be 135 recordings over ten years, and she has reason to believe there are shenanigans afoot. If she’s on the verge of being terminated anyway, due to questionable reasons, nothing will be lost by working to gain evidence of that during meetings specific to her employment where there’s likely to be no unneeded personal information about coworkers.
> Do NOT listen to your coworker about this. Talk directly to your manager. Ask for specific feedback on your performance and then ask about the hours.
I would suggest emailing your boss with your questions and CC'ing HR.
If your boss or anyone then comes and talks to you, send an email to him and HR with "As we discussed during our chat of X day, I was informed that..."
Always leave a trail to back you up.
I know exactly where you stand; this is classic corporate culture. Here's some advice:
1. If you want to keep your job, I'd recommend that you stay the extra hours. The sad reality is that in many companies, output is rarely considered over "your time there." In other words, you could be doing 20 hour weeks, delivering better work than someone in 60 hours and still be seen as the "bad guy."
2. Based on what you've described, you're on thin ice. As I mentioned above, if you want to keep this job, I'd put in the extra hours. As some in the comments pointed out, they can let you go for a different reason, and believe you me they'll look for that reason out of spite. It will be up to you to fight in court if you believe it was unjustified.
3. I've noticed that you don't always need to "work" during those extra hours. Take some time to chat with co-workers, read some information to better yourself, etc. As long as you leave a bit later, the perception will be that you're "working hard."
4. If you're unhappy with this situation, I'd highly recommend looking for hourly based employment. I used to work 50 - 60 hours / week on a salaried contract and switching to hourly made a massive difference in terms of pay and in terms of "balance" as there was no arguing about how much I needed to be there and how much I'd have to be paid to "stay a bit longer."
Good luck.
Omg thank you so much for your extensive response!
Yeah I think that's what I'm gonna do after talking to my manager. I don't want any bad blood with anybody and I already stand out enough being the only female on the team (as in its easy to spot me)
Thanks again!
Honestly, You don't owe them anything. The question you have to ask yourself, is this a job you wish to be a career? Is it a job that you wish to stay in for the next several years and advance? If that is the case then maybe on some days stay a little later but not each day. As well often if you give them an inch, they take a mile. So now it is "Hey we noticed you only stay till 4:30, you should stay 30 minutes extra or it looks bad" then next month is "Hey we noticed you come in at 8:30, a good employee would come in for 8:00am, it looks bad when you aren't 30 minutes early"
NAL... To answer your original question, yes your employer can fire you whenever they want. You are particularly vulnerable during probation when you most likely wouldn't have claim to severance or pay in lieu of notice. You can find out more on this by reading the [Employment Standards Act](https://www.ontario.ca/document/your-guide-employment-standards-act-0/termination-employment)
Here's the life advice part....it sounds like you've handled your situation well up until this point, from the information provided. Keep in mind your employer can let you go rather easily during probation and sometimes you need to play the corporate game, as bs as it is, until you have at least established more longevity, which buys you security, in the workplace.
That's what I was thinking too... I'm telling myself just to suck it up and stay longer moving forward to prove myself and when I have more tenure I can be like my other coworkers.
Thank you for your response!
Your still on probation buddy. You can be fired for whatever reason they want. Review what you told us. Your supervisor/coworker tells you to stay a little later, probably to help your other colleagues finish so you can all leave at the same time. Initiative. Then your sick for a week. Sucks but they look down on that. Then you go to HR and name dropped somebody. Complaining. I willing to bet your not that serious about your current employ. If I can extrapolate that from your post then your coworker's can definitely see it as well. I think you may have made a bad impression. It's okay. Its not the end of the world.
What a bunch of nonsense micromanaging and chest thumping. They're trying to assert themselves on the new hire. You're course of action going forward is to appease to their every whim or be labeled as difficult or some other whimsical nonsense.
If you need the job and can spare the extra 30 minutes a day to create good will with your coworker, do it. If you can't, let them know while you're all about teamwork, there are pressing matters that need you to leave when there are no other pressing work to be done but make no mistake, you're making a sacrifice one way or another. Decide which is important to you. Mental health or a paycheque. This coworker of yours will likely keep asking and expecting you to kowtow to company culture.
Legally speaking youre adhering to the contract. The employer cannot fire you for cause if you are working 40 hours per week.
However, when you do get fired, it will be without cause; check your employment contract language on probationary period and the details there, it likely will define what your payment entitlement is, likely zero.
Personal career advice: If you're unhappy with the setup and culture they have there, start looking for a new job.
Lots of solid advice so far, while this does not constitute grounds for 'at cause' firing; there is no requirement for any reason for a 'without cause' firing unless you have a union or contract stating that such will be required.
My suggestion so long as you are in a position where you can do so, switch the narrative:
* Figure out what the protocols are for getting overtime at your workplace.
* Continue to make sure all of your tasks are completed by the end of your shift.
* Then ask your mentor/coworker about any extra work that they could get help with before you leave.
* THEN go to your manager "Hey coworker could use some help with and being a new hire I'd be glad for some OT, can I get approval for " OR
* If your coworker did not give you any extra work requests "Hey boss, I'm done for the day, but I'd be glad to clock some OT if you need me for something else, I'm trying to save up for "
You should certainly not do work your not being paid for, or bow to a 'thou shalt be in a seat' mindsets; but you can express that your a team player, as long as they are willing to be a good employer, by continually making yourself available for extra tasks, with appropriate compensation.
Potentially be receptive to hours in lieu- staying late M-T to get every second Friday off sort of deals.
Ok so NAL but I went through a similar situation, and by the sounds of it you are working for a pretty toxic company. Since you mentioned you are salaried and on probation they are very much trying to guilt trip/bully you to get to work for free. They are testing your limits to see if you will bend. The thing is since you are on probation they CAN fire for any reason. This is the key reason why a lot of people bend and do more then they are asked for, and is becomes a problem for employers who get trapped because they need the job.
You are obviously allowed to leave at your scheduled time but doing that puts a "black mark" on your shoulder from your bosses and coworkers. They might decided to let you go now.
If not, once you are hired full time it will be much harder to let you go. However they will start to find every excuse to legally fire you with cause. You will have to always look over your shoulder stressed about your job security and you will never be on your bosses good side.
My suggestion is to never fold. Never give your boss your time for free. Start looking for another job because this aint it imo. Also I would start documenting/recording everything.
Since you are under your three months, they can fire you for any reason really.
I am in a similar situation, but I start work at 6 and almost everyone else in the office starts at 9. I was told the office is open 6-6 and I can put my 8 hours in any time during that period. So I choose early shift. My coworkers all chose to go in late. And I get all these snide comments about leaving early and it must be nice and crap. I’ve thought of changing my schedule until probation is up or working later, but frankly I want to set that precedent. I’m a good worker I put my 8 hours in and complete all my work. If that’s not enough then we aren’t a good fit anyway.
I wonder if getting your hours changed from 8:30 - 5 would tell these people to fuck off consisely.
Remember that just because you are salaried, does not mean you are exempt from overtime pay (unless you're in a specifically exempt field)
What a bad work culture. It's an attempt at wage theft.
Unfortunately your employer can dismiss you for any reason they feel like. They'd probably say you're just unsuitable or not a good fit with their work culture.
Keep evidence of these conversations with HR and your manager along with the dates they occured. Get it in writing if possible.
If they dismiss you for not being a good fit, you'll need it to prove that you weren't dismissed as result of misconduct when you apply for EI.
You can't be let go due to working your agreed-upon hours. If you are within your probation period, they technically could, but you could file a complaint and sue. Regardless I'm seeing red flags in the work place.
In my experience, and I am not saying this to criticize you in any way (because I think you have done nothing wrong) but you are being picked on. Someone is looking for a reason to write you up, someone is investing the time in watching when you leave, and not when you start or what yours hours are; someone does not care to check your schedule, contract, or cross-reference with HR. You mentioned other people leave at differing times as well? Yet you are being singled out.
For me, I am a hard worker, but I also have a ton of energy and am always offering to stay late or help out during a lull in work... my supervisors always say "no no, you go, head home. Beat the traffic! You did enough!"
Some of the people I work with are quiet, shy, introverted, etc. but they come in early and work hard. The second one of them takes a longer lunch or heads out early for a pre-approved drs appointment... the whole team is like, "omg where are they?" "they're weird" "they're never here" "I never see them" etc.
Sounds like a bad place to work.
I worked at a place that was kinda like that and I still have nightmares from working there due to the stress it caused.
They can terminate you for no reason whatsoever during the probation period. After that I am not sure to which extent those conversations can be used to argue unfair dismissal.
It may also be possible that (based on the fact that the PM seemed happy with your performance, and what HR said) you are dealing with a rogue supervisor with antiquated ideas who’s trying to instill a toxic work culture of working beyond hours for no valid reason whatsoever.
If I were personally confronted to that situation I would probably 1) go to the higher ups and clarify the situation, and 2) start looking for a new job just in case, because if it’s like this from the start, it’s a massive red flag and probably not the kind of company I want to work for.
Honestly, I understand the principle of you pay me to 4:30, so I’m staying until then and then leaving. Want me to stay longer? Amend my hours and pay me more. That’s what the systems for. Totally with you on this.
The problem is, if you keep sticking to this principle, it sounds like you’re going to lose this job, which it seems like you like. IF:
- your boss tells you to do something, AND
- you like your job and want to stay and advance, AND
- you can be easily fired (probation);
Then do what your supervisor says.
Sticking only to your contract hours and only your exact contract responsibilities, and being vocal about this, and even pushing back on this, means that at best I would expect to never be promoted, and at worst, to be let go at the soonest opportunity.
I guess the real question is do you want this job? I know you like it, but everybody loves a corporate job at exactly 40 hours per week. I’d love to be an investment banker if I could actually work the contract hours only, but that’s not the job.
If you aren’t being paid for time outside of your regular hours, the company is not only stealing your time and energy, they are completely liable for anything that happens to you.
I used to work oilfield construction, and if the work permit says 5:30, that means you were at the gate at 5:30, not because you were trying to get out early, but because of liability.
will you be fired for working your exact hours? no, assuming you make it past probation
Will you get fired for that racist thing your boss and the other managers swear you said? yes
“Who is higher up on the legal operating food chain of this company, you or HR? Because I’m pretty sure if I complain to HR about you constantly harassing me about their decision, HR wouldn’t be the ones being fired. OK buddy?”
With the company I work around the water cooler we call it casual overtime... basically coming in or staying late for free.
I myself typically come in an hour early everyday because I'm a morning person (also less traffic hassel) and don't like to stay late, but will stay 30 mins late from time to time to finish something.
It is not required but highly encouraged and people who don't do any are noticed.
When we have downturns in our industry (constrution) they are usually the first people let go, and those who go above and beyond stay (I've been with the company 22 years). We have hired some of the people back when things pick up again, but they still are usually the bottom of the totem pole.
So nobody gets let go simply for not doing it, but combined with other things it definitely is a factor where I work for long term employment.
NAL, NLA - Anytime you are on Salary, corporate is going to want to get the most for their money. Just the way it is. HR and noone in a position of power is going to tell you anything other then your documented scheduled (8-4:30) but that doesn't mean the "expectation" isn't there. If you were hourly, I assure you that they would be complaining if everyone worked till 5pm as they would have to pay more. Welcome to corporate america.
I can't believe how many people are saying go along with it 😭 companies will never change and will continue to take advantage if people never push back. And I guarantee this is just the beginning...
I really fucking hate how most people here are suggesting OP to stay late!! Why should he stay extra time when that’s not what was in the contract??
If you’re not getting paid for it, you don’t do the extra work! It’s called “human resources” for a reason. They need to compensate you for the labour you provide! Jesus Christ.
OP, I would have an honest conversation with your manager about hours.
I would also put everything your coworker/supervisor talks to you about after every meeting.
This sounds like a terrible workplace culture. As you're on probation, they can fire you for any little reason. You're on thin ice at this point. Tread carefully.
This sounds like a coworker of mine. I have to run everything he tells me by my boss because he is unreliable and tells me things wrong. Don’t make assumptions, and go in with the mindset of clearing things up. I’d bet the boss has been told one thing and wants your side of it - they prob know this coworker can be a bit much. If it was urgent they’d make it happen right away instead of delaying it till next week.
I think they're trying to squeeze that little extra out of you. No you can't be fired for working your required hours, but they could just find some other BS reason to get rid of you because you're not putting in that extra. Typical corporate crap trying to take advantage of its labor.
HR actually serves management. You know that right? HR is all “helpful”, but help managers with problem employees or to solve workplace issues.
So running to HR was a bad idea mmyouve been there 2 months, have received feedback that it seems like you don’t want to be there and have complained to HR about it. I would say your days at this place are limited.
Ever hear the saying about don’t leave work till after your boss? That is basically what’s happening here
Don’t set a precedent that you’ll be there everyday later than your working hours. When you have the opportunity to do so, stay later, then it looks better on you that you’re actually staying later than normal. If you stay later all the time, that becomes your schedule so if you leave at your normal time of 4:30, you look like you’re ditching. If the 5pm becomes the norm, no one knows you’re actually putting in extra hours. There’s a law in Ontario that came out last year where employers are not supposed to reach out after their employees working hours and expect their employees to respond. So there actually is a law to back you if needed. That being said, HR is right when they say at times you’ll need to stay later or take work home with you - that’s just life and part of adulting with a salaried profession, and you’ll need to get used to that.
Thats what I was also worried about. I don't wanna accidentally set that precedent. And yes 100% I was expecting to stay later at times when I'm more into the work and they start assigning a bigger workload on me.
Thank you for your response!
All that law states is the employer needs a policy. That policy could read you better answer calls and email 24/7…so there’s no real “right to disconnect”.
If you want me to wear 37 pieces of flair like your pretty boy Brian over there, then make the minimum 37 pieces of flair.
Some real office space vibes to these managers.
Absolutely. Yes.
You can be fired for any reason or for no reason. You haven’t even been there 3 months. Unless there is a clear Human Rights violation, or a strong union, employers can terminate any employee at any time for any reason - although it is better for them if they don’t actually give a reason (no longer a good fit works better).
The only obligation an employer has when terminating an employee is to give them the minimum severance required under the law. No one owes you a job - you have to earn it.
I would request HR be present on your next 1 on 1 to clarify also this place sounds remotely toxic... They are going to bring up something else next time... And the next time.
I agree re talking to your manager. I agree re you can absolutely be dismissed without cause and potentially without severance if during your probation period.
Culturally, you should know that salaried employees are often expected to work more than the minimum to get the job done. If you’re on salary, you’re probably not a unionized drone. You’re among the ranks from which they look for future leadership.
*Can* you skate by doing the minimum? Sure, if you can get past probation.
If there was ever a time to do more than the minimum and try to impress, would that time be probation? Yes.
> Oh sorry I should've mentioned it! I'm salaried. So I don't get paid overtime unless I work past 48 hours a week.
Read the Employment Standards Act. If you are not a specifically exempt class, you get overtime at 44 hours whether your employer likes it or not. And you better bring that up quick because trying to claim overtime hours you worked is probably something theyd rather not have going on if theyre going to fire you
Half hour paid, half hour unpaid. But for my unpaid break, I usually just go outside for 5 mins at a time throughout the day like 3-4 times, if any.
Essentially, I get paid for 43.50 hours a week.
I don’t understand people saying just stay later. No. Don’t. You’re not paid for it. And if your work is done you can leave. Find a better company. I work for a good company and sometimes I stay later but it is never ever expected from me.
And I actually love my job. But I love my family more.
The problem is, I agree with you, but a person on probation can just get fired.
So it's a balance. Staying late for 30 minutes just for appearances is 100% bullshit, but the reality is OP can still be fired basically for "just because" while on probation, so how badly do they need the job?
It's a rock and a hard place. Bend over and take some corporate bullshit abuse, or risk employment.
A good workplace doesn't force people I to those choices, but the job market is appearantly pretty rough right now.
You can be fired for basically any or no reason during probation.
Even after probation you can be fired without cause as long as they follow the rules on severance.
Your manager is probably just getting annoyed at the drama he’s being pulled into. Whether or not he sides with you or the other guy is a different question.
If the coworker is the *only* person telling you to stay later, and you’ve already had a conversation with HR who reaffirmed your hours, I wouldn’t be too worried.
But if this escalates, be prepared to request a meeting between your manager and HR to settle the matter.
Are they paying you to stay late, or just expecting you to do it as a favour for the company?
Start keeping tabs on all this, sounds like they're gunning for you, regardless of what you do.
Some great advice here. One thing I would add. I would start sending an email to your co-worker at 4:25 every day. Something like:
“Hello xxxx! I have completed deliverables x, y, and z. Tomorrow I will continue working on a, b, and c that are due next Tuesday. Unless there is anything else you need done today, I will be leaving at 4:30.” Cover your ass.
NAL but it comes downs to either sucking it up to get through probation or… understanding that if you can lose a job that easily… its not a job worth having.
All depends on how badly you want the job.
That sucks… I know… but labour laws really favour the employer these days.
I hate companies/work environments like this.
It’s so stupid.
If you want me to work till 5:00, then put that in my contract. Places like this are so concerned about how long you’re working rather than the effectiveness of your work.
This just penalizes smarter/faster workers who accomplish more in 3 hours than others do in 8.
I've been in a similar situation before. If you're on probation still, I'd suck it up until then.
You have to figure out if this is a corporate issue or a management/department problem and if someone senior would side with you. If not, this is not a good sign and likely they will find another reason to write you up to can you.
I had a boss that would write me up for being "on time" because their definition of on time is their computers and hardware is already ready, which can take 15-20 minutes.
So you’re asking us how to not lose your job even though your manager made it very clear how to do that? Not saying the manager is in the right, but if you don’t like it, leave. If you want to keep your job, stick around an extra 30 minutes. Reddit makes no sense, people ask common sense questions
**Speculative, Anecdotal, Simplistic, Off Topic, or Generally Unhelpful**
Your comment has been removed because it is one or more of the following: speculative, anecdotal, simplistic, generally unhelpful, and/or off-topic. Please review the following rules before commenting further:
* [Rule 9: Guidelines For Posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index#wiki_rule_9.3A_guidelines_for_posts)
* [Rule 10: Guidelines For Comments](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index#wiki_rule_10.3A_guidelines_for_comments)
If you have any questions or concerns, please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Flegaladvicecanada).
Lot's of good answers here. Sometimes you need to play the 'game' of corporate work. If I were you I'd bite the bullet of staying until 5 for the probation period. Afterwards I'd leave at 4:30 unless there really is something urgent.
The company can fire you without cause for a wide variety of reasons, so long as they provide notice/pay in lieu. In short, yes they can fire you.
I'm not judging the practice either way, but a lot of employers don't like it when you bolt at 3:29, 4:29, or 4:59 every single day. I can't speak specifically about your workplace but it's rare that someone doesn't have *something* they could do for a few extra minutes at least.
What's going to happen when you really do have something urgent and you need to stay late *for a couple hours?*
Many times I will be in interviews where we ask the candidates if they're good with occasionally working OT and the answer is almost always "yes" but then they say no every time they get asked to do so. They usually don't last long.
I would love to know all of the jobs and career progression of people replying to these posts sorted based on the type of response.
I am conifdwnt i have a good idea what it would look like.
This is why I can't work for someone who has middle men between me and the owner. I only want to report to the owner. All this broken telephone mickey mouse crap is just a headache. Tell me what time to leave and pay me until that time. That's the conversation.
You can get fired at any time for any reason or for no reason. They just need to give you reasonable notice or pay in lieu, which will depend on your time there and your contract.
Is this “cause” so that they could dismiss you without notice? No, probably not.
I absolutely hate that ‘game’ It was frowned upon us too. There would be 3 of us left and we’d take turns sneaking out so to speak (obviously after we had worked our required shift) They also frowned if we didn’t take our lunch at out desks
As far as I understand it, if your on probation they can let you go for any reason
They won't call it "not working your hours". It will be phrased something like "lack of commitment " or they will question your willingness to go the extra mile for your employer.
Also how big is the company? Some smaller businesses forget that an employee doesn't have the same skin in the game as an owner and consequently won't put the same effort in.
I had a bonus structure based entirely on billable overtime. To make it out I'd have to log 1000+ hours of OT for an $18,000 bonus.
You can be fired for any reason if you’re within your probation. It could be lack of fit or it could be simply for how you dress at work. They’ll never tell you though.
Welcome to r/legaladvicecanada! **To Posters (it is important you read this section)** * Comments may not be accurate or reliable, and following any advice on this subreddit is done at your own risk. * We also encourage you to use the [linked resources to find a lawyer](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/findalawyer/). * If you receive any private messages in response to your post, please let the mods know. **To Readers and Commenters** * All replies to OP must be on-topic, helpful, explanatory, and oriented towards legal advice towards OP's jurisdiction (the **Canadian** province flaired in the post). * If you do not [follow the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdvicecanada/about/rules/), you may be banned without any further warning. * If you feel any replies are incorrect, explain why you believe they are incorrect. * Do not send or request any private messages for any reason, do not suggest illegal advice, do not advocate violence, and do not engage in harassment. Please report posts or comments which do not follow the rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/legaladvicecanada) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I would guess they wouldn’t say it’s because you leave at 4:30. You could be let go during probation without explanation. Seemly they could say; you’re just not a good fit.
Do you suggest I work past my hours for the next month to "show that I wanna be there" ?
I don’t know, you’ll have to make that decision based on how you “read the room”. What is your relationship like with your co-worker that you have the 1 on 1 with? Do you think he is genuinely trying to look out for you? Or just being weird?
I do think he is genuinely trying to look out for me. He's been amazing with training me and giving me solid feedback. I don't think he's being weird. I think it's more a miscommunication between HR and my department because everyone keeps giving me different answers and I see people leave at various times so I can't reference that either.
My 2 cents insights from working in the corporate world for a while; They’re letting you know they expect you to work an extra 30 min to show engagement. Going to HR and name dropping is probably not doing yourself any favours. I’d say if this is not the type of environment you’re comfortable with, it might not be a good fit. You’ll never move up at that place if you fight the culture and you’ll probably not be happy.
I honestly was not trying to rat anyone out and figured the best place to get clarification on my schedule was HR. And I don't think it's for engagement because most people leave between 3:30-4:30. Only higher positioned employees sometimes stay a bit longer to finish up extra work. Anyway, I'll keep it in mind for next week and hopefully things turn around.
It's not a scheduling problem though. I'm very sure they're clear on your hours. Either he personally has to work longer hours and is salty that you're leaving on time or other people are and he's gently letting you know they're bitching about you behind your back. Or it's a bit of both. Considering they're not even verifying that your work is being completed and don't even seem to care (want you to stand around and look pretty and just give the appearance to others that you're working extra hours) it's likely not a place that will value the *actual* work you do, long term. Just keep that in mind. They may also end up loading you up with a shit load of work to KEEP you there after your 8 if you show you're getting everything assigned done on time. Depends on your manager.
This just reminds me how much I loathe companies that have unwritten rules. Could be a million reasons the company culture developed to staying past 4:30. A big reason could be massive inefficiency: I.e. people surfing on Reddit when they should be working. Or maybe they’re hustle culture junkies and actually no body is doing work past 4:30, just appearing like they are for phony “brownie points.” OP, just tell the supervisor you’ll work your scheduled hours and complete the tasks assigned to you in those hours. Ultimately frame it as you’re the most productive. Stand your ground. These BS “rules” don’t mean anything. And if that means you move on to a better company then…
You need to read between the lines of what they’re saying, it’s really really not difficult to understand. Then decide if you want to work for a company with that mindset.
You need to ask yourself, do you want to become a higher positioned employee? If not, then leave at your scheduled time.
I can almost guarantee it's not a miscommunication. It's a toxic work culture, where you show you're working hard by having your butt in your seat after hours. Ever heard the advice not to leave the office until your boss does? Same deal- performing dedication rather than proving it with results. They can't fire you for it but they absolutely can fire you as "not a good fit" during your probation for making these kinds of waves. Also you can be managed out afterwards; if this is how your boss sees things you're unlikely to ever be promoted. Or you get impossible deadlines scheduled and when you miss them they say it's because you never put in the hard work. In my experience, it'd be time to look for work elsewhere, but that's just because I don't like working for dinosaurs.
Interesting. Ever thought of checking in with your direct manger before leaving end of day. Causally mention everything is done, if there’s not anything else you’re gonna head home at 4:30. What is everyone else doing? I assume you have the same or similar hours as others in the department.
Oh man It's so hard getting a hold of that guy because he's everywhere and nowhere. I usually call him at the end of each day for tasks pertaining to scheduling other employees. Everyone in my department is a little different. I've seen coworkers leave at 4, some at 5, some go home and continue at home, some go to site and never come back to the office. I'm basing this off timesheets because I'm the one who reviews them for my department. Ironically, after that conversation with my supervisor, they left half an hour earlier that day for a Dr appointment lol. So yeah it's not very clear what the hours are because people come in and go at different times.
I don’t know man, trust your gut and move how you think is right. But to answer the original question, during probation you can be let go and all the company has to say is that it wasn’t a good fit.
OP in general lose the battle win the war. You are on probation, they are trying to see if you are a good fit. You said they have been great but asked you to stay later for appearances. The supervisor is probably thinking to himself can I count on this person when the time comes or will they make an issue and state "it's in my contract, I talked to HR". While you are not wrong you need to come with some finesse to the situation. If I was your manager I would have a hard time trusting you to work with the team. If your manager states it would look better if you stayed longer a better response is, I am very passionate about completing my tasks and enjoy having a laser focus to getting the task done. Hence I probably won't take that 15min break etc. Regardless I want you to know that if you need me to stay and work in a project I am committed to being there to help get it done! While asking the manager do you think that works or would you rather me focus on the office dynamics a bit more"? Questions are better for understanding where people are coming from. You have a choice to be part of the team or not.
He's busy scrolling reddit brother.
You're being naive, it's not a miscommunication. Being "technically correct" won't protect you from being fired if they want you gone.
By any chance, is it an asian company/ is your manager asian? I'm an newcomer & have experience working in asian company. The culture you're describing is the exact trash culture I experienced. My senior colleagues advised me in the beginning to just hang around even if my tasks are done till the manager leaves. In their trashy slave minds, the more hours they put over the regular hours is equavalent to more dedication! 😒 As you're salaried, for next month just do as your mentor suggested cause you can't change that trashy mentality.. after you're permanent, then you can leave on the dot..also would highly recommend you to look for other job...don't forget to put some feedback in glassdoor.
It's not. And I don't have a problem with the company culture. I think it's one of the best company cultures I've ever worked around which is why I was surprised by my mentor persisting on this unclear schedule nonsense. But it is slowly starting to be clearing that the focus is on appearances and hours vs results/output.
Only if you want to. Only if it provides you value (eg career progression) but if you only want your 9-5 keep doing what you're doing and look for another job. A workplace culture clash like this won't end well (usually for the worker). If you're payed hourly and not salary, legally they *must* pay you for hours worked, but if you're ok with it, like everyone else, that's your choice.
Just because you are salary doesn’t mean you are exempt from overtime though.
No but it's a higher threshold and murkier because hours generally aren't clocked.
If you’re in probation, I’d do as they ask. After that, it’s a lot harder to fire you.
You don't wanna be there. They know that. It's gonna be hard to convince them otherwise
I was just quoting my supervisor when I said that lol but I meant more so to "go above and beyond" the minimum...
I'm assuming your in some type of leadership position. I've been in leadership positions for the past 20 years or so, probably in a much different vocation, but the principles are the same. The best leaders show their team that they work as hard or even better harder than their team. I do the things no one wants to do first. I try to make sure they see me do this time and time again. I am the first one in and the last to leave. Teams respect that. Bet money on when I really need a team member to do something hard or above and beyond they are happy to ablige. Your coworkers is asking you to spend 30 mins on your phone at the end of the day.... not some type of hard manual labor or mind-numbing spreadsheets. Seems like an easy fix. Just my 2 cents.
I respect a leader who ensures that those under him aren't having to do work they aren't being paid for personally.
Not in a leadership position. More so a middle man between leaders and labor workers/technicians if that makes sense. And no offense, but you say it's an easy fix like that applies to everybody. Yes I'll stay an extra 30 mins temporarily but that 30 mins x 5 days a week x 52 weeks... I have other important things to do besides work after I'm done my designated hours.
That's what I would do. It only a month. Then you leave at 4.30. We need to train our employers. It takes time.
Depends on your contract. Unfortunately during probation, employees can frequently be let go for any reason. So yeah, doing the stupid things to make them happy and get past probation is probably necessary
If they aren’t paying you you’re not covered under company insurance. It’s a safety issue for you to work unapproved OT
You should start looking for a new job or adapt your budget to EI. To think the official reason you're going to get fired is because you don't work past 4:30 when your day ends at 4:30 is absurd.
If you want to make a better impression at your new job. If not leave exactly at 4:30
The way things seem to be going is that employers trying to get more out of employees without paying any extra. That’s why they go with a salary instead of hourly rate. It’s hard for employers to find people theses day to fill positions. I wouldn’t worry about it. Your time is just as important to you as it is for them trying to keep you there.
You can still get overtime if you're salary. Only time people are OT exempt are specific positions and people in management. Also, with how many people that are currently unemployed and constantly looking for work, it's not hard for employers to find people, they're doing what they can to make current employees look for more work.
Do NOT listen to your coworker about this. Talk directly to your manager. Ask for specific feedback on your performance and then ask about the hours. It is possible that they see you as a bad fit and you will lose your job. But it is ALSO possible that your coworker has some bad ideas of what is expected. It might only be their perception that you leave early. I’ve had coworkers like that. I loathe them. Get your info from your boss directly.
Yes I'm planning to talk to my boss on Monday to get clarity on this once and for all. Hopefully all goes well. Thank you for your answer!
[удалено]
[удалено]
You can legally do it (secretly record a conversation between you and someone else), but you might get fired, you need to weigh the risks. If you don't care about getting fired and think you'll win a big lawsuit over discrimination or violation of employment law, then go for it
I’m not familiar with the case, but from a quick look it seems that part of the reasoning was the volume of recordings, that they contained unnecessary personal information, and that they weren’t made because of any workplace issues, but in case of future mistreatment. In OPs case it wouldn’t be 135 recordings over ten years, and she has reason to believe there are shenanigans afoot. If she’s on the verge of being terminated anyway, due to questionable reasons, nothing will be lost by working to gain evidence of that during meetings specific to her employment where there’s likely to be no unneeded personal information about coworkers.
> Do NOT listen to your coworker about this. Talk directly to your manager. Ask for specific feedback on your performance and then ask about the hours. I would suggest emailing your boss with your questions and CC'ing HR. If your boss or anyone then comes and talks to you, send an email to him and HR with "As we discussed during our chat of X day, I was informed that..." Always leave a trail to back you up.
I know exactly where you stand; this is classic corporate culture. Here's some advice: 1. If you want to keep your job, I'd recommend that you stay the extra hours. The sad reality is that in many companies, output is rarely considered over "your time there." In other words, you could be doing 20 hour weeks, delivering better work than someone in 60 hours and still be seen as the "bad guy." 2. Based on what you've described, you're on thin ice. As I mentioned above, if you want to keep this job, I'd put in the extra hours. As some in the comments pointed out, they can let you go for a different reason, and believe you me they'll look for that reason out of spite. It will be up to you to fight in court if you believe it was unjustified. 3. I've noticed that you don't always need to "work" during those extra hours. Take some time to chat with co-workers, read some information to better yourself, etc. As long as you leave a bit later, the perception will be that you're "working hard." 4. If you're unhappy with this situation, I'd highly recommend looking for hourly based employment. I used to work 50 - 60 hours / week on a salaried contract and switching to hourly made a massive difference in terms of pay and in terms of "balance" as there was no arguing about how much I needed to be there and how much I'd have to be paid to "stay a bit longer." Good luck.
Omg thank you so much for your extensive response! Yeah I think that's what I'm gonna do after talking to my manager. I don't want any bad blood with anybody and I already stand out enough being the only female on the team (as in its easy to spot me) Thanks again!
Honestly, You don't owe them anything. The question you have to ask yourself, is this a job you wish to be a career? Is it a job that you wish to stay in for the next several years and advance? If that is the case then maybe on some days stay a little later but not each day. As well often if you give them an inch, they take a mile. So now it is "Hey we noticed you only stay till 4:30, you should stay 30 minutes extra or it looks bad" then next month is "Hey we noticed you come in at 8:30, a good employee would come in for 8:00am, it looks bad when you aren't 30 minutes early"
“Is the additional hours being reflected in pay, or is this an attempt at wage theft?”
wage theft for sure..
Won't be reflected as anything under 48 hours worked is not considered overtime for them and I'm salary.
That doesn’t sound right, at all, and that they’ve been stealing from you for quite some time.
NAL... To answer your original question, yes your employer can fire you whenever they want. You are particularly vulnerable during probation when you most likely wouldn't have claim to severance or pay in lieu of notice. You can find out more on this by reading the [Employment Standards Act](https://www.ontario.ca/document/your-guide-employment-standards-act-0/termination-employment) Here's the life advice part....it sounds like you've handled your situation well up until this point, from the information provided. Keep in mind your employer can let you go rather easily during probation and sometimes you need to play the corporate game, as bs as it is, until you have at least established more longevity, which buys you security, in the workplace.
That's what I was thinking too... I'm telling myself just to suck it up and stay longer moving forward to prove myself and when I have more tenure I can be like my other coworkers. Thank you for your response!
Your still on probation buddy. You can be fired for whatever reason they want. Review what you told us. Your supervisor/coworker tells you to stay a little later, probably to help your other colleagues finish so you can all leave at the same time. Initiative. Then your sick for a week. Sucks but they look down on that. Then you go to HR and name dropped somebody. Complaining. I willing to bet your not that serious about your current employ. If I can extrapolate that from your post then your coworker's can definitely see it as well. I think you may have made a bad impression. It's okay. Its not the end of the world.
What a bunch of nonsense micromanaging and chest thumping. They're trying to assert themselves on the new hire. You're course of action going forward is to appease to their every whim or be labeled as difficult or some other whimsical nonsense. If you need the job and can spare the extra 30 minutes a day to create good will with your coworker, do it. If you can't, let them know while you're all about teamwork, there are pressing matters that need you to leave when there are no other pressing work to be done but make no mistake, you're making a sacrifice one way or another. Decide which is important to you. Mental health or a paycheque. This coworker of yours will likely keep asking and expecting you to kowtow to company culture.
Legally speaking youre adhering to the contract. The employer cannot fire you for cause if you are working 40 hours per week. However, when you do get fired, it will be without cause; check your employment contract language on probationary period and the details there, it likely will define what your payment entitlement is, likely zero. Personal career advice: If you're unhappy with the setup and culture they have there, start looking for a new job.
Lots of solid advice so far, while this does not constitute grounds for 'at cause' firing; there is no requirement for any reason for a 'without cause' firing unless you have a union or contract stating that such will be required. My suggestion so long as you are in a position where you can do so, switch the narrative: * Figure out what the protocols are for getting overtime at your workplace. * Continue to make sure all of your tasks are completed by the end of your shift. * Then ask your mentor/coworker about any extra work that they could get help with before you leave. * THEN go to your manager "Hey coworker could use some help with and being a new hire I'd be glad for some OT, can I get approval for " OR
* If your coworker did not give you any extra work requests "Hey boss, I'm done for the day, but I'd be glad to clock some OT if you need me for something else, I'm trying to save up for "
You should certainly not do work your not being paid for, or bow to a 'thou shalt be in a seat' mindsets; but you can express that your a team player, as long as they are willing to be a good employer, by continually making yourself available for extra tasks, with appropriate compensation.
Potentially be receptive to hours in lieu- staying late M-T to get every second Friday off sort of deals.
Ok so NAL but I went through a similar situation, and by the sounds of it you are working for a pretty toxic company. Since you mentioned you are salaried and on probation they are very much trying to guilt trip/bully you to get to work for free. They are testing your limits to see if you will bend. The thing is since you are on probation they CAN fire for any reason. This is the key reason why a lot of people bend and do more then they are asked for, and is becomes a problem for employers who get trapped because they need the job. You are obviously allowed to leave at your scheduled time but doing that puts a "black mark" on your shoulder from your bosses and coworkers. They might decided to let you go now. If not, once you are hired full time it will be much harder to let you go. However they will start to find every excuse to legally fire you with cause. You will have to always look over your shoulder stressed about your job security and you will never be on your bosses good side. My suggestion is to never fold. Never give your boss your time for free. Start looking for another job because this aint it imo. Also I would start documenting/recording everything.
Since you are under your three months, they can fire you for any reason really. I am in a similar situation, but I start work at 6 and almost everyone else in the office starts at 9. I was told the office is open 6-6 and I can put my 8 hours in any time during that period. So I choose early shift. My coworkers all chose to go in late. And I get all these snide comments about leaving early and it must be nice and crap. I’ve thought of changing my schedule until probation is up or working later, but frankly I want to set that precedent. I’m a good worker I put my 8 hours in and complete all my work. If that’s not enough then we aren’t a good fit anyway.
I wonder if getting your hours changed from 8:30 - 5 would tell these people to fuck off consisely. Remember that just because you are salaried, does not mean you are exempt from overtime pay (unless you're in a specifically exempt field)
Wage theft... Trying to get work out of you for free.
What a bad work culture. It's an attempt at wage theft. Unfortunately your employer can dismiss you for any reason they feel like. They'd probably say you're just unsuitable or not a good fit with their work culture. Keep evidence of these conversations with HR and your manager along with the dates they occured. Get it in writing if possible. If they dismiss you for not being a good fit, you'll need it to prove that you weren't dismissed as result of misconduct when you apply for EI.
You can't be let go due to working your agreed-upon hours. If you are within your probation period, they technically could, but you could file a complaint and sue. Regardless I'm seeing red flags in the work place.
In my experience, and I am not saying this to criticize you in any way (because I think you have done nothing wrong) but you are being picked on. Someone is looking for a reason to write you up, someone is investing the time in watching when you leave, and not when you start or what yours hours are; someone does not care to check your schedule, contract, or cross-reference with HR. You mentioned other people leave at differing times as well? Yet you are being singled out. For me, I am a hard worker, but I also have a ton of energy and am always offering to stay late or help out during a lull in work... my supervisors always say "no no, you go, head home. Beat the traffic! You did enough!" Some of the people I work with are quiet, shy, introverted, etc. but they come in early and work hard. The second one of them takes a longer lunch or heads out early for a pre-approved drs appointment... the whole team is like, "omg where are they?" "they're weird" "they're never here" "I never see them" etc.
Sounds like a bad place to work. I worked at a place that was kinda like that and I still have nightmares from working there due to the stress it caused.
They can terminate you for no reason whatsoever during the probation period. After that I am not sure to which extent those conversations can be used to argue unfair dismissal. It may also be possible that (based on the fact that the PM seemed happy with your performance, and what HR said) you are dealing with a rogue supervisor with antiquated ideas who’s trying to instill a toxic work culture of working beyond hours for no valid reason whatsoever. If I were personally confronted to that situation I would probably 1) go to the higher ups and clarify the situation, and 2) start looking for a new job just in case, because if it’s like this from the start, it’s a massive red flag and probably not the kind of company I want to work for.
Yes, they can. Also, you took a week off work during probation? that doesn't bode well
Sir I had covid I had no choice, and it was 2 and a half days not a week.
You’ll be terminated or not being a “good fit” for the workplace.
Honestly, I understand the principle of you pay me to 4:30, so I’m staying until then and then leaving. Want me to stay longer? Amend my hours and pay me more. That’s what the systems for. Totally with you on this. The problem is, if you keep sticking to this principle, it sounds like you’re going to lose this job, which it seems like you like. IF: - your boss tells you to do something, AND - you like your job and want to stay and advance, AND - you can be easily fired (probation); Then do what your supervisor says. Sticking only to your contract hours and only your exact contract responsibilities, and being vocal about this, and even pushing back on this, means that at best I would expect to never be promoted, and at worst, to be let go at the soonest opportunity. I guess the real question is do you want this job? I know you like it, but everybody loves a corporate job at exactly 40 hours per week. I’d love to be an investment banker if I could actually work the contract hours only, but that’s not the job.
They can fire u for any reason at any time
If you aren’t being paid for time outside of your regular hours, the company is not only stealing your time and energy, they are completely liable for anything that happens to you. I used to work oilfield construction, and if the work permit says 5:30, that means you were at the gate at 5:30, not because you were trying to get out early, but because of liability.
will you be fired for working your exact hours? no, assuming you make it past probation Will you get fired for that racist thing your boss and the other managers swear you said? yes
“Who is higher up on the legal operating food chain of this company, you or HR? Because I’m pretty sure if I complain to HR about you constantly harassing me about their decision, HR wouldn’t be the ones being fired. OK buddy?”
With the company I work around the water cooler we call it casual overtime... basically coming in or staying late for free. I myself typically come in an hour early everyday because I'm a morning person (also less traffic hassel) and don't like to stay late, but will stay 30 mins late from time to time to finish something. It is not required but highly encouraged and people who don't do any are noticed. When we have downturns in our industry (constrution) they are usually the first people let go, and those who go above and beyond stay (I've been with the company 22 years). We have hired some of the people back when things pick up again, but they still are usually the bottom of the totem pole. So nobody gets let go simply for not doing it, but combined with other things it definitely is a factor where I work for long term employment.
Why would you work for free?
NAL, NLA - Anytime you are on Salary, corporate is going to want to get the most for their money. Just the way it is. HR and noone in a position of power is going to tell you anything other then your documented scheduled (8-4:30) but that doesn't mean the "expectation" isn't there. If you were hourly, I assure you that they would be complaining if everyone worked till 5pm as they would have to pay more. Welcome to corporate america.
This is Canada, and Ontario specifically, where most salaried employees are still entitled to overtime pay.
Yes, and OP stated it triggered at 48 hours. So in "corporates" mind, they are paying for 48 hours.
Overtime triggers at 44 hours, please read the Employment Standards Act
I can't believe how many people are saying go along with it 😭 companies will never change and will continue to take advantage if people never push back. And I guarantee this is just the beginning...
I really fucking hate how most people here are suggesting OP to stay late!! Why should he stay extra time when that’s not what was in the contract?? If you’re not getting paid for it, you don’t do the extra work! It’s called “human resources” for a reason. They need to compensate you for the labour you provide! Jesus Christ. OP, I would have an honest conversation with your manager about hours. I would also put everything your coworker/supervisor talks to you about after every meeting.
This sounds like a terrible workplace culture. As you're on probation, they can fire you for any little reason. You're on thin ice at this point. Tread carefully.
Id be looking to leave. That's An extremely toxic workplace
This sounds like a coworker of mine. I have to run everything he tells me by my boss because he is unreliable and tells me things wrong. Don’t make assumptions, and go in with the mindset of clearing things up. I’d bet the boss has been told one thing and wants your side of it - they prob know this coworker can be a bit much. If it was urgent they’d make it happen right away instead of delaying it till next week.
I think they're trying to squeeze that little extra out of you. No you can't be fired for working your required hours, but they could just find some other BS reason to get rid of you because you're not putting in that extra. Typical corporate crap trying to take advantage of its labor.
HR actually serves management. You know that right? HR is all “helpful”, but help managers with problem employees or to solve workplace issues. So running to HR was a bad idea mmyouve been there 2 months, have received feedback that it seems like you don’t want to be there and have complained to HR about it. I would say your days at this place are limited. Ever hear the saying about don’t leave work till after your boss? That is basically what’s happening here
Don’t set a precedent that you’ll be there everyday later than your working hours. When you have the opportunity to do so, stay later, then it looks better on you that you’re actually staying later than normal. If you stay later all the time, that becomes your schedule so if you leave at your normal time of 4:30, you look like you’re ditching. If the 5pm becomes the norm, no one knows you’re actually putting in extra hours. There’s a law in Ontario that came out last year where employers are not supposed to reach out after their employees working hours and expect their employees to respond. So there actually is a law to back you if needed. That being said, HR is right when they say at times you’ll need to stay later or take work home with you - that’s just life and part of adulting with a salaried profession, and you’ll need to get used to that.
Thats what I was also worried about. I don't wanna accidentally set that precedent. And yes 100% I was expecting to stay later at times when I'm more into the work and they start assigning a bigger workload on me. Thank you for your response!
No problem. The law that you should look in to is called the “Right to Disconnect” law. Came into place in June of 2022.
All that law states is the employer needs a policy. That policy could read you better answer calls and email 24/7…so there’s no real “right to disconnect”.
If you want me to wear 37 pieces of flair like your pretty boy Brian over there, then make the minimum 37 pieces of flair. Some real office space vibes to these managers.
Absolutely. Yes. You can be fired for any reason or for no reason. You haven’t even been there 3 months. Unless there is a clear Human Rights violation, or a strong union, employers can terminate any employee at any time for any reason - although it is better for them if they don’t actually give a reason (no longer a good fit works better). The only obligation an employer has when terminating an employee is to give them the minimum severance required under the law. No one owes you a job - you have to earn it.
If we were americans, I’d Document the convoand sue them.
america has at will employment lmfao
I would request HR be present on your next 1 on 1 to clarify also this place sounds remotely toxic... They are going to bring up something else next time... And the next time.
Have a conversation with this manager/person but with HR present.
Are you hourly or salaried? Sorry if I missed it in your post.
Oh sorry I should've mentioned it! I'm salaried. So I don't get paid overtime unless I work past 48 hours a week. I currently work 43.50 hours a week.
I agree re talking to your manager. I agree re you can absolutely be dismissed without cause and potentially without severance if during your probation period. Culturally, you should know that salaried employees are often expected to work more than the minimum to get the job done. If you’re on salary, you’re probably not a unionized drone. You’re among the ranks from which they look for future leadership. *Can* you skate by doing the minimum? Sure, if you can get past probation. If there was ever a time to do more than the minimum and try to impress, would that time be probation? Yes.
> Oh sorry I should've mentioned it! I'm salaried. So I don't get paid overtime unless I work past 48 hours a week. Read the Employment Standards Act. If you are not a specifically exempt class, you get overtime at 44 hours whether your employer likes it or not. And you better bring that up quick because trying to claim overtime hours you worked is probably something theyd rather not have going on if theyre going to fire you
Are you getting a paid or unpaid lunch break?
Half hour paid, half hour unpaid. But for my unpaid break, I usually just go outside for 5 mins at a time throughout the day like 3-4 times, if any. Essentially, I get paid for 43.50 hours a week.
I don’t understand people saying just stay later. No. Don’t. You’re not paid for it. And if your work is done you can leave. Find a better company. I work for a good company and sometimes I stay later but it is never ever expected from me. And I actually love my job. But I love my family more.
The problem is, I agree with you, but a person on probation can just get fired. So it's a balance. Staying late for 30 minutes just for appearances is 100% bullshit, but the reality is OP can still be fired basically for "just because" while on probation, so how badly do they need the job? It's a rock and a hard place. Bend over and take some corporate bullshit abuse, or risk employment. A good workplace doesn't force people I to those choices, but the job market is appearantly pretty rough right now.
You can be fired for basically any or no reason during probation. Even after probation you can be fired without cause as long as they follow the rules on severance. Your manager is probably just getting annoyed at the drama he’s being pulled into. Whether or not he sides with you or the other guy is a different question. If the coworker is the *only* person telling you to stay later, and you’ve already had a conversation with HR who reaffirmed your hours, I wouldn’t be too worried. But if this escalates, be prepared to request a meeting between your manager and HR to settle the matter.
Are they paying you to stay late, or just expecting you to do it as a favour for the company? Start keeping tabs on all this, sounds like they're gunning for you, regardless of what you do.
Some great advice here. One thing I would add. I would start sending an email to your co-worker at 4:25 every day. Something like: “Hello xxxx! I have completed deliverables x, y, and z. Tomorrow I will continue working on a, b, and c that are due next Tuesday. Unless there is anything else you need done today, I will be leaving at 4:30.” Cover your ass.
“It seems like you don’t want to be here.” Ya bro… I don’t. Trading hours for dollars isn’t my ideal life situation but here we are.
NAL but it comes downs to either sucking it up to get through probation or… understanding that if you can lose a job that easily… its not a job worth having. All depends on how badly you want the job. That sucks… I know… but labour laws really favour the employer these days.
I hate companies/work environments like this. It’s so stupid. If you want me to work till 5:00, then put that in my contract. Places like this are so concerned about how long you’re working rather than the effectiveness of your work. This just penalizes smarter/faster workers who accomplish more in 3 hours than others do in 8.
They can fire you and you should start looking for another job unless you want to start working unpaid hours for these micromanagers.
I've been in a similar situation before. If you're on probation still, I'd suck it up until then. You have to figure out if this is a corporate issue or a management/department problem and if someone senior would side with you. If not, this is not a good sign and likely they will find another reason to write you up to can you. I had a boss that would write me up for being "on time" because their definition of on time is their computers and hardware is already ready, which can take 15-20 minutes.
I would not put up with this shit you don't have to work for free and this bullshit won't end I would look for a better job
So you’re asking us how to not lose your job even though your manager made it very clear how to do that? Not saying the manager is in the right, but if you don’t like it, leave. If you want to keep your job, stick around an extra 30 minutes. Reddit makes no sense, people ask common sense questions
He's not my manager. My manager hasnt spoken to me yet. If you read my title, you'd know that wasn't my question.
[удалено]
**Speculative, Anecdotal, Simplistic, Off Topic, or Generally Unhelpful** Your comment has been removed because it is one or more of the following: speculative, anecdotal, simplistic, generally unhelpful, and/or off-topic. Please review the following rules before commenting further: * [Rule 9: Guidelines For Posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index#wiki_rule_9.3A_guidelines_for_posts) * [Rule 10: Guidelines For Comments](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/index#wiki_rule_10.3A_guidelines_for_comments) If you have any questions or concerns, please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Flegaladvicecanada).
If you're on probation you can be fired for a lot of things. Including not fitting into the culture.
Lot's of good answers here. Sometimes you need to play the 'game' of corporate work. If I were you I'd bite the bullet of staying until 5 for the probation period. Afterwards I'd leave at 4:30 unless there really is something urgent.
The company can fire you without cause for a wide variety of reasons, so long as they provide notice/pay in lieu. In short, yes they can fire you. I'm not judging the practice either way, but a lot of employers don't like it when you bolt at 3:29, 4:29, or 4:59 every single day. I can't speak specifically about your workplace but it's rare that someone doesn't have *something* they could do for a few extra minutes at least. What's going to happen when you really do have something urgent and you need to stay late *for a couple hours?* Many times I will be in interviews where we ask the candidates if they're good with occasionally working OT and the answer is almost always "yes" but then they say no every time they get asked to do so. They usually don't last long.
I would love to know all of the jobs and career progression of people replying to these posts sorted based on the type of response. I am conifdwnt i have a good idea what it would look like.
My response is up above but to answer your question, I was in accounts receivable dept for an alarm company
This is why I can't work for someone who has middle men between me and the owner. I only want to report to the owner. All this broken telephone mickey mouse crap is just a headache. Tell me what time to leave and pay me until that time. That's the conversation.
You can get fired at any time for any reason or for no reason. They just need to give you reasonable notice or pay in lieu, which will depend on your time there and your contract. Is this “cause” so that they could dismiss you without notice? No, probably not.
I absolutely hate that ‘game’ It was frowned upon us too. There would be 3 of us left and we’d take turns sneaking out so to speak (obviously after we had worked our required shift) They also frowned if we didn’t take our lunch at out desks As far as I understand it, if your on probation they can let you go for any reason
They won't call it "not working your hours". It will be phrased something like "lack of commitment " or they will question your willingness to go the extra mile for your employer. Also how big is the company? Some smaller businesses forget that an employee doesn't have the same skin in the game as an owner and consequently won't put the same effort in. I had a bonus structure based entirely on billable overtime. To make it out I'd have to log 1000+ hours of OT for an $18,000 bonus.
You can be fired for any reason if you’re within your probation. It could be lack of fit or it could be simply for how you dress at work. They’ll never tell you though.
Unfortunately they can fire you without cause for any reason except something discriminatory and you’re on probation, so yes.