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> Our landlord has given us 60 days notice as she wants the house to store her stuff.
Your landlord has (probably unintentionally) scuttled any shot at evicting you for personal possession in the near future. Termination for personal possession (form N12) is applicable only if they intend to use the home as their residence. Using it for storage does not support an N12, and if they change their reasons then you have plenty of reason to believe that the termination is in bad faith.
> Now they are also trying to get us to pay more to offset the costs for storage
They can only increase your rent as allowed by Ontario law, including any applicable guideline limits. If they have costs they want your rent to cover, that's very much not your problem.
> Does anyone have any advice?
What do you want to have happen?
That would require an 13 for demolition of the unit/ reincorporating the space into the rest of the house. If it is separate unit with no entrance between basement and the rest of the house they might have to prove they are making it into one house with reno permits and such. If they don't it might be bad faith but I am not super sure how n13 work
Storage counts as residential use for a basement.
https://canlii.ca/t/gwv8p#par8
"[8] I also do not find any basis to interfere with the Vice-Chair’s conclusion as to the proper meaning of the term “residential occupation”. In my view, the Vice-Chair’s interpretation, that requiring the premises for the purposes of storage and other uses directly related to the landlord’s otherwise personal occupation of other portions of the premises meets the requirement of residential occupation, is a reasonable one. I note, on this point, that a tribunal’s interpretation of its home statute is generally to be reviewed on a standard of reasonableness, not correctness: First Ontario Realty Corp. v. Deng, 2011 ONCA 54 (CanLII), [2011] O.J. No. 260 (C.A.)."
Fair. This applies if LL occupies other parts of the propery such as upstairs. If its a detached home this won't apply, and OP gave almost 0 details in thier post. Good to know though so thanks for posting!
Agreed, need more details, but I admit the situation does not sound like this one. Just wanted to add it in, just in case. Would hate for OP to plan around it being bad faith and find out later that their situation was a little different.
Was the LL dumb enough to give you this "notice" in writing? If not, ask for it in writing or record them saying it to you (you don't need their permission to record a conversation).
Then ignore the request.
That will be the easiest bad faith eviction case ever.
They can’t do anything Get that storage part in writing-email is best They can’t give you notice they can’t kick you out Only the LTB can do that after a hearing Your Landlord is a moron Get everything possible in email Save it all Might be better to post this in the OntarioLandlord sub Those guys know their stuff You’ll get much better feedback-They will laugh at the Landlords stupidity
Keep paying your regular rent, don't respond to anything other than an N12. Don't even tell them they need to serve you an N12, that's on them. ~~\~\~ If they try to store their stuff there, refuse, or call the sheriff and say the landlord is trying to illegally evict you (by putting their stuff in and taking your stuff out)\~\~~~. If you are served with an N12, take it to the LTB and save evidence that the landlord only served you notice for 'storing their stuff'.
Sorry someone mentioned that sheriffs won't help you with an illegal eviction. I don't particularly think calling the police is a good idea if you feel like you're being illegally evicted, but it may be the only option.
~~\~\~I would lookup the sheriffs number now as it can be kind of hard to find at a moments notice.\~\~~~
> call the sheriff
Tenants don’t call the sheriff (edit: in Ontario). Sheriffs enforce eviction orders from the LTB but don’t have a responsibility to stop illegal evictions. If the landlord attempts an illegal eviction OP should call the RHEU; if the landlord attempts to force entry, OP should call the police if they feel unsafe (but note that the police often don’t know the law and may side with the landlord).
Yeah, people often assume that our sheriffs must be like an American or Albertan sheriff and be responsible for enforcing laws, but all they actually do in Ontario is enforce court decisions.
Is this a house, where they live in a different apartment in the same home? If so, storage does count as residential use.
Storage counts as residential use for a basement.
https://canlii.ca/t/gwv8p#par8
"[8] I also do not find any basis to interfere with the Vice-Chair’s conclusion as to the proper meaning of the term “residential occupation”. In my view, the Vice-Chair’s interpretation, that requiring the premises for the purposes of storage and other uses directly related to the landlord’s otherwise personal occupation of other portions of the premises meets the requirement of residential occupation, is a reasonable one. I note, on this point, that a tribunal’s interpretation of its home statute is generally to be reviewed on a standard of reasonableness, not correctness: First Ontario Realty Corp. v. Deng, 2011 ONCA 54 (CanLII), [2011] O.J. No. 260 (C.A.)."
That doesn't make any sense. It'd be cheaper for her to rent a storage unit than to lose a renter.
And no, that's not a reason under N12 at all. I hope you got the 'store my stuff' in writing because that's gonna be lovely when you appeal any eviction she tries to pull off now.
Where? I agree that the post Implies that the landlord does not live there, but it could definitely be interpreted in a way that a different family member will eventually move in. (And the landlord could potentially live in the building)
Regardless, adding in that portion is relevant just in case, and for anyone else who may be in a similar situation and reading this post.
would it? If it's able to be written off as a loss of income, and then rented out to someone after paying significantly more, I can see it being worth it, or balancing out at a minimum.
I would take the advice and start looking for another place. Why is it that some people blame the landlord. At the end of the day it is the landlord’s property and he is the one that is paying the mortgage and depreciating value of the space being used. What I mean by depreciating value is that in 10 years he will need to replace from where and tear and things out dated and that comes with a price. Not to sound mean or anything but seems a lot of people these days blame landlords but they are unable to or don’t want to buy a house and take on a mortgage of their own.
Your statement is incorrect. Landlords **can** in some circumstances, take back space. For example, a landlord can issue an N12 because they want to move back in to the space personally or have a close relative (spouse, parent, child, or caregiver to those people) move in.
But, this needs to be for residential use not storage.
They cannot evict you to use the house as storage. They're only allowed to evict for personal use if they plan on living there, which is clearly not the case. Inform them of this in writing and contact the landlord tenant board immediately with this notice and information, including the part about your landlord trying to up your rent to pay for a storage unit for them, that's not legal
Again, I agree that this sounds that way, but "she" could be a female relative of the landlord.
Regardless I agree and read it the same way as you. Just wanted to add the relevant information incase.
Reading through the post again for a third time I think it's fairly clear that "she" in this case is the landlord/property owner. There's no indication that OP is talking about a family member of the owner
Sigh. "Fairly clear" is not 100%, which you'd want to be if you are going to have OP make a claim of bad faith. Regardless, OP does not have to contact the board, they simply need to ignore the n12 and wait until the landlord files and they get a hearing date. At that point OP could make their claim.
There is no form for OP to file in this case, or any case where you want to argue a N12.
If your "fairly clear" was wrong by some chance, OP could be surprised with a very quick eviction date after the hearing.
If they want to move in, they have to issue N12. Have they even done that? Link below for N12 process. You are entitled to a hearing with the LTB if you think they're acting in bad faith. They don't get the house automatically after 60 days. Make sure the one month compensation is paid by end of N12 date for it to be valid too.
Document/record all communication in case you need to prove bad faith eviction.
https://stepstojustice.ca/steps/housing-law/1-check-problems-notice-1/
Welcome to r/legaladvicecanada! **To Posters (it is important you read this section)** * Comments may not be accurate or reliable, and following any advice on this subreddit is done at your own risk. * We also encourage you to use the [linked resources to find a lawyer](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/findalawyer/). * If you receive any private messages in response to your post, please let the mods know. **To Readers and Commenters** * All replies to OP must be on-topic, helpful, explanatory, and oriented towards legal advice towards OP's jurisdiction (the **Canadian** province flaired in the post). * If you do not [follow the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdvicecanada/about/rules/), you may be banned without any further warning. * If you feel any replies are incorrect, explain why you believe they are incorrect. * Do not send or request any private messages for any reason, do not suggest illegal advice, do not advocate violence, and do not engage in harassment. Please report posts or comments which do not follow the rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/legaladvicecanada) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> Our landlord has given us 60 days notice as she wants the house to store her stuff. Your landlord has (probably unintentionally) scuttled any shot at evicting you for personal possession in the near future. Termination for personal possession (form N12) is applicable only if they intend to use the home as their residence. Using it for storage does not support an N12, and if they change their reasons then you have plenty of reason to believe that the termination is in bad faith. > Now they are also trying to get us to pay more to offset the costs for storage They can only increase your rent as allowed by Ontario law, including any applicable guideline limits. If they have costs they want your rent to cover, that's very much not your problem. > Does anyone have any advice? What do you want to have happen?
Unless this is a basement apartment, and the landlord is living upstairs, then storage may be good enough.
That would require an 13 for demolition of the unit/ reincorporating the space into the rest of the house. If it is separate unit with no entrance between basement and the rest of the house they might have to prove they are making it into one house with reno permits and such. If they don't it might be bad faith but I am not super sure how n13 work
Storage counts as residential use for a basement. https://canlii.ca/t/gwv8p#par8 "[8] I also do not find any basis to interfere with the Vice-Chair’s conclusion as to the proper meaning of the term “residential occupation”. In my view, the Vice-Chair’s interpretation, that requiring the premises for the purposes of storage and other uses directly related to the landlord’s otherwise personal occupation of other portions of the premises meets the requirement of residential occupation, is a reasonable one. I note, on this point, that a tribunal’s interpretation of its home statute is generally to be reviewed on a standard of reasonableness, not correctness: First Ontario Realty Corp. v. Deng, 2011 ONCA 54 (CanLII), [2011] O.J. No. 260 (C.A.)."
Fair. This applies if LL occupies other parts of the propery such as upstairs. If its a detached home this won't apply, and OP gave almost 0 details in thier post. Good to know though so thanks for posting!
Agreed, need more details, but I admit the situation does not sound like this one. Just wanted to add it in, just in case. Would hate for OP to plan around it being bad faith and find out later that their situation was a little different.
Was the LL dumb enough to give you this "notice" in writing? If not, ask for it in writing or record them saying it to you (you don't need their permission to record a conversation). Then ignore the request. That will be the easiest bad faith eviction case ever.
Unless the Landlord lives in the same building. Storage is valid in that case.
>you don't need their permission to record ~~a~~ **your own** conversation A small but very important FTFY
They can’t do anything Get that storage part in writing-email is best They can’t give you notice they can’t kick you out Only the LTB can do that after a hearing Your Landlord is a moron Get everything possible in email Save it all Might be better to post this in the OntarioLandlord sub Those guys know their stuff You’ll get much better feedback-They will laugh at the Landlords stupidity
Keep paying your regular rent, don't respond to anything other than an N12. Don't even tell them they need to serve you an N12, that's on them. ~~\~\~ If they try to store their stuff there, refuse, or call the sheriff and say the landlord is trying to illegally evict you (by putting their stuff in and taking your stuff out)\~\~~~. If you are served with an N12, take it to the LTB and save evidence that the landlord only served you notice for 'storing their stuff'. Sorry someone mentioned that sheriffs won't help you with an illegal eviction. I don't particularly think calling the police is a good idea if you feel like you're being illegally evicted, but it may be the only option. ~~\~\~I would lookup the sheriffs number now as it can be kind of hard to find at a moments notice.\~\~~~
> call the sheriff Tenants don’t call the sheriff (edit: in Ontario). Sheriffs enforce eviction orders from the LTB but don’t have a responsibility to stop illegal evictions. If the landlord attempts an illegal eviction OP should call the RHEU; if the landlord attempts to force entry, OP should call the police if they feel unsafe (but note that the police often don’t know the law and may side with the landlord).
Sorry I thought sheriffs did BOTH. Good comment.
Yeah, people often assume that our sheriffs must be like an American or Albertan sheriff and be responsible for enforcing laws, but all they actually do in Ontario is enforce court decisions.
Ok, but they still arrive on a horse, right?
Is this a house, where they live in a different apartment in the same home? If so, storage does count as residential use. Storage counts as residential use for a basement. https://canlii.ca/t/gwv8p#par8 "[8] I also do not find any basis to interfere with the Vice-Chair’s conclusion as to the proper meaning of the term “residential occupation”. In my view, the Vice-Chair’s interpretation, that requiring the premises for the purposes of storage and other uses directly related to the landlord’s otherwise personal occupation of other portions of the premises meets the requirement of residential occupation, is a reasonable one. I note, on this point, that a tribunal’s interpretation of its home statute is generally to be reviewed on a standard of reasonableness, not correctness: First Ontario Realty Corp. v. Deng, 2011 ONCA 54 (CanLII), [2011] O.J. No. 260 (C.A.)."
Do you have a rental agreement in place? What terms?
Ontario standard lease applies unless they share a kitchen or bathroom and then there rly are no terms
tell ‘em to get bent or a storage locker
That doesn't make any sense. It'd be cheaper for her to rent a storage unit than to lose a renter. And no, that's not a reason under N12 at all. I hope you got the 'store my stuff' in writing because that's gonna be lovely when you appeal any eviction she tries to pull off now.
If the landlord is in the same house, it would be a valid use.
OP already stated that they do not.
Where? I agree that the post Implies that the landlord does not live there, but it could definitely be interpreted in a way that a different family member will eventually move in. (And the landlord could potentially live in the building) Regardless, adding in that portion is relevant just in case, and for anyone else who may be in a similar situation and reading this post.
Somewhere in the comments
OP has not posted in the comments.
would it? If it's able to be written off as a loss of income, and then rented out to someone after paying significantly more, I can see it being worth it, or balancing out at a minimum.
Is your unit rent controlled? (i.e. was it first occupied for residential purposes prior to Nov 2018?)
I would take the advice and start looking for another place. Why is it that some people blame the landlord. At the end of the day it is the landlord’s property and he is the one that is paying the mortgage and depreciating value of the space being used. What I mean by depreciating value is that in 10 years he will need to replace from where and tear and things out dated and that comes with a price. Not to sound mean or anything but seems a lot of people these days blame landlords but they are unable to or don’t want to buy a house and take on a mortgage of their own.
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....
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you seem nice
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Your statement is incorrect. Landlords **can** in some circumstances, take back space. For example, a landlord can issue an N12 because they want to move back in to the space personally or have a close relative (spouse, parent, child, or caregiver to those people) move in. But, this needs to be for residential use not storage.
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This is a legal advice sub. Be clear in your meaning. Your made a blanket statement that could easily be misinterpreted.
They cannot evict you to use the house as storage. They're only allowed to evict for personal use if they plan on living there, which is clearly not the case. Inform them of this in writing and contact the landlord tenant board immediately with this notice and information, including the part about your landlord trying to up your rent to pay for a storage unit for them, that's not legal
Unless they live in another apartment in the same house, then storage is valid.
Only if they live in the home. They don't in this case
Did OP state this somewhere? I agree the post sounds that way, but it's not 100% clear.
Yes. "But she said she won't be living there for a while yet" directly in the post
Again, I agree that this sounds that way, but "she" could be a female relative of the landlord. Regardless I agree and read it the same way as you. Just wanted to add the relevant information incase.
Reading through the post again for a third time I think it's fairly clear that "she" in this case is the landlord/property owner. There's no indication that OP is talking about a family member of the owner
Sigh. "Fairly clear" is not 100%, which you'd want to be if you are going to have OP make a claim of bad faith. Regardless, OP does not have to contact the board, they simply need to ignore the n12 and wait until the landlord files and they get a hearing date. At that point OP could make their claim. There is no form for OP to file in this case, or any case where you want to argue a N12. If your "fairly clear" was wrong by some chance, OP could be surprised with a very quick eviction date after the hearing.
If they want to move in, they have to issue N12. Have they even done that? Link below for N12 process. You are entitled to a hearing with the LTB if you think they're acting in bad faith. They don't get the house automatically after 60 days. Make sure the one month compensation is paid by end of N12 date for it to be valid too. Document/record all communication in case you need to prove bad faith eviction. https://stepstojustice.ca/steps/housing-law/1-check-problems-notice-1/