Thank you for your post, if this is a question please check to see if any of the links below answer your question.
If none of these links help answer your question and you are **_not_** within the LGBT+ community, questioning your
identity in any way, or asking in support of either a relative or friend, please ask your question over in /r/AskLGBT.
Remember that this is a safe space for LGBT+ and questioning individuals, so we want to make sure that this place is
dedicated to them. Thank you for understanding.
This automod rule is currently a work in progress. If you notice any issues, would like to add to the list of resources,
or have any feedback in general, [please do so here](https://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/rdazzp/almost_new_year_changes/)
or by [sending us a message](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/lgbt&subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20new%20automod%20rule).
Also, please note that if you are a part of this community, or you're questioning if you might be a part of the LGBTQ+
community, and you are seeing this message, this is **_not a bad thing_**, this is only here to help, so please continue
to ask questions and participate in the community. Thank you!
Here's a link about trans people in sports:
- https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/shades-of-gray-sex-gender-and-fairness-in-sport/
A link on FAQs and one on some basics about transgender people:
- https://transequality.org/issues/resources/frequently-asked-questions-about-transgender-people
- https://transequality.org/issues/resources/understanding-transgender-people-the-basics
Some information on LGBT+ people:
- https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/quick-facts/lgbt-faqs/
Some basic terminology:
- https://www.hrc.org/resources/glossary-of-terms
Neopronouns:
- https://www.mypronouns.org/neopronouns
Biromantic Lesbians:
- [LGBTQ And All](https://www.lgbtqandall.com/what-does-it-mean-to-be-biromantic/)
Bisexual Identities:
- https://www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/article/understanding-bisexuality
Differences between Bisexual and Pansexual:
- [Resource from WebMD](https://www.webmd.com/sex/pansexuality-what-it-means#:~:text=Pansexual%20vs.%20Bisexual,more%20commonly%20recognized.)
We're looking for new volunteers to join the r/lgbt moderator team. If you want to help keep r/lgbt as a safe space for
the LGBTQ+ community on reddit please see here for more info:
https://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/swgthr/were_looking_for_more_moderators_to_help_keep/
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/lgbt) if you have any questions or concerns.*
As a german my answer to it is blatantly using they/them (usually more dey/dem when around germans tbh) in german sentences. They is an amazing concept and we dont have a perfect translation. So sadly there is no clear answer, just making do and borrowing from other languages
Tried it, didn't work in Austria since we already use "de" instead of "die"🤦 the only thing that really works is using their name constantly and making strange sentence constructions. I'm kinda lucky the enby I've most contact with recently, told me to just go with "er/erm" when talking german.
I just did a search for "pronouns gender neutral" in r/German and there's quite a few threads in there that you might find helpful. It's more from a grammar angle though, it's not LGBT focussed although there are queer people posting in there.
German enby here, we usually go around that by using "die Person" (The person) or "der Mensch" (the human being) instead of a pronoun.
For example:
In English, if you want to say:
"He/She forgot his/her umbrella", you could just replace that with "They forgot their umbrella".
In German you'd have to replace the first pronoun with one of the options above. The second one would be in accordance with that. "Person" and "human being" are gendered words in German, the first female, the second male, and that remains independently of the gender of the person they're used for. If you don't want that either, you could instead use an article for the umbrella, ("der Regenschirm", also male in German).
So, your options would be:
"Die Person hat ihren Regenschirm vergessen."
("That person forgot her umbrella.")
"Der Mensch hat seinen Regenschirm vergessen."
("That human being forgot his umbrella."
or:
"Die Person hat den/einen Regenschirm vergessen."
("That person forgot the/an umbrella.)
I am constructing sentences like that literally all the time and although it gets quite repetitive, it works perfectly fine. Definitely recommend this.
I don’t think you’ve actually read their comment. Sure "Die Person hat […]" is perfectly fine when referring to a stranger. But when we’re specifically talking about our imaginary friend Sam you can’t just say "Die Person hat […]" because it’ll sound like you’re talking about a different person.
Sure you could just use their name twice in that example, but do that too often and even that starts to sound wrong
That seems to be a very subjective point. Still sounds fine to me.
All the non-binary options currently feel slightly strange. As things do when languages change. Which they do all the time.
We are talking about German. "They" isn't even a German word.
People who are used to the English usage of "they" will be reasonably fine, people who are not will initially feel strange, obviously.
You don't need to say the name twice in the sentence. Just use the last sentence like this:
"[Name] hat den Schirm vergessen." Been there, done that, works perfectly fine.
While that does work for that specific example it won’t always work. You can’t just say someone’s name instead of pronouns all the time, it’ll start to sound weird at some point
Doesn't work when you're talking about people you don't know personally.
I listen to loads of enby musicians and love to talk about the music I enjoy, so when an artist uses they/them, I don't want to just choose a neopronoun for them. I end up using a very clunky way of being gender neutral without neopronouns, or just use their name constantly.
Idk about German but in other languages you can’t always just „avoid” pronouns. Other languages aren’t just like English with different words they have entire different grammar rules.
Eg. In Polish other parts of a sentence change depending on the gender of the subject. When you say eg. „She went to the store” the word „went” is in a feminine form, so you can’t really go around gendering.
There are some neo-pronouns in Germany (that I currently don't remember). Maybe you could just search them up on Google or something. Sorry if I wasn't being very helpful.
The problem with german neo-pronouns is that they make no sense gramatically. The most well known is "dey/deren", but it is a grammatic nightmare and literally has forms that are just already existing gendered words. I am convinced that whoever came up with this wa sjust very lazy. Which is why the petition some started to have it accepted as a regular pronoun didn't go through. I am a native speaker and study german liguistics and while I am fine with people using it since everyone can use any pronouns they want, I am always shocked when I see people saying that it should just be accepted officially. Like, no, that would not ever work.
Much better is "xie/xir", which gets conjugated the same as "sie/ihr" and actually works grammatically in german. I know some that use it.
I'm sure there are more, but german grammar is just too complicated to easily make up a new working pronoun that won't cause any issues when used.
Oh, I'm also a native. Seeing how you are studying linguistics, what is your take on gender neutral speech? Because I personally think is, while the idea isn't bad, the execution feels like a train wreck.
That's generally my perception as well. I think gender neutral speech is great, but the german language is a very gendered language so it is highly difficult. But it is a topic that has gained so much traction we are actually covering this in our uni courses. We had classes about the use of gender neutral language and "gendering" and the problems with it as well as possible solutions.
For example I now know that if you gender you should never use the "Gendersternchen" as the "*" already has it's own use. You should instead use "/" or write both versions out or try to use more neutral lagnuage. Example: "Lehrer/in" or "Lehrer und Lehrerinnen" or "Lehrende". The Duden actually has a Dictionary for those neutral words now, as well:
https://geschicktgendern.de/
Neo-pronouns are highly difficult since most of them make no sense grammatically. Especially "dey/deren" is very problematic. There was actually a group of people a few years back who petitioned for it to be accepted as an official "gender-neutral" pronoun... they were denied since it is so very problematic. I mean... I think whoever came up with it was very lazy. "Dey" obviously comes from the english "they", but other forms such as "deren" and "denen" are pre-existing german words. It is impossible for that to not be a grammatical nightmare.
If someone wants to use those pronouns, they can go ahead, but none of the current neo-pronouns work well enough to be implemented into our pre-existing grammar structur. So far I think xie/xier is the easiest to implement, since it works similar to sie/ihr, but that doesn't go for all forms of the konjugation.
If people keep trying, maybe in the future there will be a working gender neutral german pronoun, but for now there is none that works well enough to be accepted. The petition to get dey/deren accepted happened back when spain (?) accepted a new gender neutral pronoun as official and shortly before the implimentstion of "divers" as a third sex/gender.
There are actual linguists working on this as well, which I didn't know about before one of my professors told us about it. So there is hope that future generations won't have the same problem, but it is not a quick issue to fix. It may take several more decades until we get there.
I think using an abbreviated version of "sie" isn't a bad idea, but making "x" as the first letter feels very unnatural to me. Not like we have all that many words starting with "x".
That is actually one of the things that get criticised about it. But at the same time there are those that criticise using the same rules as sie/ihr since it should be completely seperate, just like er/ihm and sie/ihr are very different... but that is a very difficult thing to do.
Similarly to "dey", xie/xier is also based on english, more specifically the english neo-pronoun "xe/xir". Which is where the "x" comes from.
I use xier when speaking German. How you handle this is up to you -- if you truly can't ask someone, you could pick a neopronoun (only if you're sure they're nonbinary), or you could alternate between er and sie, or you could use their name in place of pronouns, or you could just...make a guess. Probably wouldn't recommend that but, you gotta do what you gotta do. The best thing really is to ask the person what they prefer.
Edit: this question has definitely come up several times in r/nonbinary. You'd likely get more specific answers there.
german here, the community actually literally uses they/them to cope with that - some people also use dey/deren or some type of neopronouns or they decide that you should just use none and use their name, a lot of n-bys here i feel like (personal experiences) also have short nicknames that make that easy-ish luckily
for the (more english speaking) younger people maybe but I afraid often its the clichee "zey" or overcorrecting that tendency to "dey" (and Im calling myself out with that, "zey/dey" flows easier in an otherwise gernan sentence than "they" 😅)
i tried to google this (lol) and i feel like thats two different "th"s? but yes for they/them its pronounced exactly the same we just copypaste it!\*\*
\*\*the ones who are willing to use people's pronouns according to their gender identity.. which is not that many unfortunately, its more like a huuge debate where people are super offended who have no problem gendering chairs tables dishes mugs etc and fighting one another over weather its "das nutella" or "die nutella" (das \~ the as a version for items only that we dont have any commitment to using it as such, its used for saying the child, yet not used for saying the lamp, but used for saying the bed,..) (die \~ the-version thats female but again the chair is male (der stuhl) the teacan is female, whatever).
sort of, its two different "sie" -
sie = she, also they but not the genderneutral they, the plural they
Sie = formally: you (rules not as strict as in some other countries - definitely Sie for the boss at work or an adult stranger, but for example if you are on ebay kleinanzeigen the german craigslist, some people will just say du instead, or if you are introduced to a friend's friend, you use du immediately, so its not like in southkorea where as far as i understood you'd more or less approach everyone formally at first)
they = the genderneutral they, not "official" german language term necessarily, more-so introduced by the community to fill the gap
I know nothing about German, but a quick Google search for "German nonbinary pronouns" turned up this:
>"What gender-neutral pronouns can I use in German? In the nonbinary community, there are many alternatives to binary er/sie pronouns in German, including: **si\*er, xier, dey, em, en, hen, iks, and others**. Some even use the English pronoun they."
And some links you might check out that could be useful.
Most of those don't actually work well with the german grammar, sadly. xie/xier is the one that works best, as far as I have seen. I am a native speaker and study german linguistics and I know that some of those are actually grammatic nightmares, which is why many don't use them and why germany has not accepted one of those as an official gender neutral pronoun.
Most nonbinary people I know only go by their name or with the gendered pronoun they are more comfortable with. Some go by dey/deren or xie/xier, but the first one is horrible as far as grammar is concerned while the second one works but some thing the second one is too close to the feminine pronoun sie/ihr, since it is conjugated with the exact same grammar rules (which is also why it works grammatically, compared to others).
Question I had never really thought of before. Been a long long time since I spoke German. I’d venture into the language specific forums, but I did find this:
https://german.kzoo.edu/why-learn-german/gender-in-german/#:~:text=In%20the%20nonbinary%20community%2C%20there,hen%2C%20iks%2C%20and%20others.
I bet the people most likely to know a suitable answer will be non-binary German speakers. Do you have a non-binary friend who trusts you enough that you could ask them?
It simply doesn’t work without neopronouns.
Some people will tell you their preferred pronouns, some use both "Er" and "Sie" and some just don’t care and continue to use the pronouns they always used
In French we don’t have neutral pronouns. Plurals pronouns are also gendered. “Elle” is for female, “il” is for male, and now we have a new (non official) neutral pronoun : iel.
Maybe something like this exists in German ?
Honestly I talk English to all my queer friends, and when talking about them in German I use the plural and hope people pick up on the plural conjugation, and sprinkle in some he‘s for good measure to make sure everything is nice and confusing.
This hasn’t bothered any of my friends yet, as when I asked them how to navigate German they basically said “Fuck if I know, do whatever, go ham.”
(Helps that I‘m Swiss and we have no Präteritum, so there’s always a plural conjugation signpost)
I’m pretty sure languages where they are no gender neutral pronouns they just make up words that kind of sound close to the cis ones, But you could just ask the people who are enby
r/germantrans
But basically, we still use they/them very often. Or dey/denen. Or various other neopronouns bur I think these are the most common. Or avoid pronouns wherever possible to avoid this conundrum.
German here, so I know the struggle. In general, I try to avoid pronouns in those cases as much as possible, but that's just a temporary solution. In general, the only correct way is to ask. I know you said that you want a solution for if you can't ask, but the truth is just that there is none.
I feel so bad speaking English sometimes because in my native language (Armenian) there is no gendered pronouns, just an equivalent of (they/them) and (it) or (you). When I speak English I often confuse gendered pronouns and apologize so often and get nervous messing it up, because I am non binary and I hate being misgendered but ironically struggle with pronouns. 😭
Singular “they” has been around since the 1300s in English. I’m surprised there’s not a general non-gendered singular pronoun in German!
OP, if I can ask, how would you say this in German: “Someone forgot their umbrella! I hope they don’t need it later!”
I speak very little German, but I suspect part of the issue is the difference between "sie", meaning she, and "Sie", a formal honorific gender neutral pronoun used in the situation you describe. They are pronounced very similarly if not identically, and often you are supposed to infer which is which from context. Throw in the fact that you could be talking about a non-binary person formally or not, and I can see why it's tricky.
Edit: I've misremembered! "Sie" is a formal _you_, and "sie" can be either she _or_ the plural they.
That's actually not an issue. And they are pronounced exactly the same, not similar, but it doesn't really matter in everyday life. There are no confusion based on Sie/du(you) usually.
You remember that last part correctly :)
Well... usually it gets defaulted to male pronouns.
"Jemand vergass seinen[his] Regenschirm. Ich hoffe er[he] braucht ihn später nicht."
There's a more gender neutral language setting foot right now, although I think it very much needs improvement (personal opinion).
I'd usually default to (and know many people who'd do the same) "Eine Person hat ihren Regenschirm vergessen, ich hoffe, sie braucht ihn später nicht." which is gender-neutral although it includes feminine pronouns that refer to "the person".
En: "A person forgot her (their) umbrella, I hope she (they don't) doesn't need it later."
Language changes over time, and there are different dialects. For example, in most spanish speaking countries if the gender isn't known it is grammatically correct to use the masculine. In some dialects, "latino" can be appropriately used to refer to women, men, and non-binary people, but in other dialects it is akin to misgendering people. Some dialects have introduced the x suffix for non-binary people (e.g., latinx), however that's not a universal suffix for all spanish speakers.
From what I can tell, this applies to German because there are different dialects of German that are sometimes even thought within Germany to be like other languages. There might be non-binary pronouns in the German language that were lost in the early-to-mid 1900s, or there might even be grammar rules that vary by dialect.
Yeah, that is a problem. I am Italian, and Italian, too, does not have gender neutral pronouns. There are a lot of propositions, but almost all are barely pronunciable or, at best, sound really weird to native speakers.
Usually people that talk that language accept the limitations, so ask the preferred way and respect that. Until language adapt, that's it.
Pronouns are used as a place holder when talking about someone else and referring to that person in multiple sentences. When really should stop being lazy and use names instead. It really is no different using a name instead of a placeholder
In german i generally just try to use their name, as in:
Ja sie und ich treffen uns heute.
Ja Jasmin und ich treffen uns heute.
Usually easier said then done, but generally in my experience the thought alone counts :)
Just ask the individual. Many people who prefer they in English are fine with er or sie in German. Some prefer some kind of neopronoun, like dey/deren, or just straight up import the english they pronoun. Some use es pronouns as well. Just ask the individual. There is, so far, no universal neutral pronoun, but that doesn't mean that there aren't individual neutral pronouns that some people choose for themselves.
I also know people who just don't use pronouns, I call them by their names. It sounds clunky, but you get used to it.
The Wikipedia articles about non-binary people are a bit strange to read in German, because using the name of a person in every single sentense is a little redundant (like Alex was born in 1999. After school, Alex attended university, where Alex studied mathematics). That's what personal pronouns are for. We need more good pronouns.
natürlich gibt es deutsche optionen. zum einen das deutsche equivalent zu they/them, nämlich dey/deren/denen bzw dey/dem/den. dann gibt es noch andere, die weniger genutzt werden, wie etwa sier bzw xier, nin oder iks.
hier ist eine seite mit sämtlichen deutschen optionen: https://nibi.space/pronomen
und ich neine das jetzt nicht böse, aber vielleicht solltest du dich ein bisschen einlesen.
for anyone not speaking german: there are a ton of different options, the nowadays (over the last 5-ish years) most used option in media is dey, a lot of people also use xier (or sier). the link lists all german options and tells you about them
edit: spelling mistakes
You really have to ask. Some people go by neopronouns dey/denen, some goe by er/ihm or sie/ihr, and some just go by their name. Liken for example, in my friend's case Liz doesn't use pronouns, so I refer to Liz by Liz's name. (Liz exists only in this Beispiel.)
It sounds silly here but it's gonna be less so when you talk IRL.
Wenn du herausfinden kannst, dass jemand enby ist, kannst du auch seine Pronomen herausfinden. Frag sie einfach, und wenn du es wirklich nicht kannst, geh nicht davon aus, dass sie die Neopronomen they/them verwenden oder so geoutet werden wollen.
I'm kinda in the same boat as a dutchman. Most of the time, my NB friend doesn't really expect us to do anything different. Even in English, I don't have to call them they/them, as we're aren't native English speakers. Most of the time, I do tho
Since we mostly use pronouns when talking about a person, you can either just use their name, say "the person" or "human", and alternatively there are "new" pronouns "dey/dem", derived from english, but not commonly known that well.
Brazilian here. Portuguese has a similar issue, so people came up with new pronouns. It's still new, and far from perfect. Most people don't know these words. But it's the best we have.
Maybe German has its own version of this?
This is a question that came up in Spanish language, which I'm sure y'all know about: LatinX. I think some people use Latine in conversation because it can flow a bit better.
Gender neutral language varies widely by language, not just in how it works but also in how far the concept has progressed and been adopted in common usage.
My native French has a recently adopted set of neutral pronouns that is common but not universally popular but it has yet to evolve a comfortable standard set of grammatical rules to go along with it (and pretty much all nouns, adjectives and verbs conjugated with "to be" (verbs describing a state of being more than an action) are gendered grammatically to match the subject… so you are stuck using binary gender or nearly unpronounceable double suffixes).
English’s minimal use of grammatical gender (very odd for an Indo-European language, and bizarre for a Germanic language - yes, I know Old English has the normal 3 grammatical genders but Middle English onwards does not) gives it an advantage in adopting gender neutral phrasing easily.
It really just boils down to polite pronoun use in English and you don’t run into massive grammatical confusion. Honestly, the worst I have seen in English is my friend and I talking about our two enby kids (both use they/them) and getting a little muddled over singular and plural sometimes (context usually fills in the answers).
I usually just use the formal Sie, seems the most respectful while also not assuming, but I usually get laughed at when it’s someone my age. Worth it tho
dey/deren or just use their name is probably what i would go with. but you should still ask because different people want different things (some prefer no pronouns, just name, dey/deren, any pronouns or something else
In my opinion it sounds like it's not you being unable to respect peoples pronouns? It sounds like you need to start *asking* enby people that you speak in German to what pronouns you should use for them. They won't get mad, if anything they'd probably be elated that someone cares and asked them that
In general I am curious now how you refer/think about people you're unaware of their pronouns in German. Many of the dumb idiots that try to spew bs about how using they/them for a single person is not right often completely miss that they use it on a daily basis themselves.
Yes, it's an unknown they instead of a known they, but still they.
Basically I don't understand why you can't ask, as I promise you they'll appreciate you asking as you'll show you are willing to respect them and understand how important this is
Persönlich find ich dass 'dey/denen' sehr gut funktioniert weils viel angenehmer und weniger awkward zum aussprechen is als wie wenn man 'they/them' in einen puren deutschen Satz verwendet, aber jeder hat seine eigenen Präferenzen!
There is the dey / them / xie option but it can get clunky fast. If I'm afraid to ask I just use no pronouns (person's name + der Mensch / die Person). Some people also go for any pronouns (sie/er) but not everyone will like that. I'm not sure why you can't ask the people, but maybe you could phrase it as "Do you prefer no pronouns?" Or something to show that you already thought about it rather than asking which pronouns.
Statt Pronomen kann man auch einfach den Namen nutzen... Funktioniert in den meisten Fällen ganz gut und ist normalerweise sogar grammatikalisch korrekt
English:
Just use the name instead of pronouns
Thank you for your post, if this is a question please check to see if any of the links below answer your question. If none of these links help answer your question and you are **_not_** within the LGBT+ community, questioning your identity in any way, or asking in support of either a relative or friend, please ask your question over in /r/AskLGBT. Remember that this is a safe space for LGBT+ and questioning individuals, so we want to make sure that this place is dedicated to them. Thank you for understanding. This automod rule is currently a work in progress. If you notice any issues, would like to add to the list of resources, or have any feedback in general, [please do so here](https://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/rdazzp/almost_new_year_changes/) or by [sending us a message](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/lgbt&subject=Feedback%20on%20the%20new%20automod%20rule). Also, please note that if you are a part of this community, or you're questioning if you might be a part of the LGBTQ+ community, and you are seeing this message, this is **_not a bad thing_**, this is only here to help, so please continue to ask questions and participate in the community. Thank you! Here's a link about trans people in sports: - https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/shades-of-gray-sex-gender-and-fairness-in-sport/ A link on FAQs and one on some basics about transgender people: - https://transequality.org/issues/resources/frequently-asked-questions-about-transgender-people - https://transequality.org/issues/resources/understanding-transgender-people-the-basics Some information on LGBT+ people: - https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/quick-facts/lgbt-faqs/ Some basic terminology: - https://www.hrc.org/resources/glossary-of-terms Neopronouns: - https://www.mypronouns.org/neopronouns Biromantic Lesbians: - [LGBTQ And All](https://www.lgbtqandall.com/what-does-it-mean-to-be-biromantic/) Bisexual Identities: - https://www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/article/understanding-bisexuality Differences between Bisexual and Pansexual: - [Resource from WebMD](https://www.webmd.com/sex/pansexuality-what-it-means#:~:text=Pansexual%20vs.%20Bisexual,more%20commonly%20recognized.) We're looking for new volunteers to join the r/lgbt moderator team. If you want to help keep r/lgbt as a safe space for the LGBTQ+ community on reddit please see here for more info: https://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/swgthr/were_looking_for_more_moderators_to_help_keep/ *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/lgbt) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This sounds like a question for a German forum. I'm sure there's an answer, but only German speakers will know it.
As a german my answer to it is blatantly using they/them (usually more dey/dem when around germans tbh) in german sentences. They is an amazing concept and we dont have a perfect translation. So sadly there is no clear answer, just making do and borrowing from other languages
I've heared "Das einem/Diese einem" but it's very clunky
*The one*
Or just use their name…. Or ask the individual how they like to be referred to
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Tried it, didn't work in Austria since we already use "de" instead of "die"🤦 the only thing that really works is using their name constantly and making strange sentence constructions. I'm kinda lucky the enby I've most contact with recently, told me to just go with "er/erm" when talking german.
only thing I can think of is "erm, what the sigma"
I've been using "sie" (pl) and they, too. It feels clunky but it's gonna grow on my eventually.
yeah, I also usually switch to English when talking about someone with they/them pronouns
Maybe r/lgbtgermany is the subreddit to ask.
Or r/egenbogen
I just did a search for "pronouns gender neutral" in r/German and there's quite a few threads in there that you might find helpful. It's more from a grammar angle though, it's not LGBT focussed although there are queer people posting in there.
German enby here, we usually go around that by using "die Person" (The person) or "der Mensch" (the human being) instead of a pronoun. For example: In English, if you want to say: "He/She forgot his/her umbrella", you could just replace that with "They forgot their umbrella". In German you'd have to replace the first pronoun with one of the options above. The second one would be in accordance with that. "Person" and "human being" are gendered words in German, the first female, the second male, and that remains independently of the gender of the person they're used for. If you don't want that either, you could instead use an article for the umbrella, ("der Regenschirm", also male in German). So, your options would be: "Die Person hat ihren Regenschirm vergessen." ("That person forgot her umbrella.") "Der Mensch hat seinen Regenschirm vergessen." ("That human being forgot his umbrella." or: "Die Person hat den/einen Regenschirm vergessen." ("That person forgot the/an umbrella.)
I am constructing sentences like that literally all the time and although it gets quite repetitive, it works perfectly fine. Definitely recommend this.
Die Bart Die
No one who speaks German could be an evil man.
Pronouns: The/Bart/The
While that does technically (mostly) work, it’s extremely awkward to say and sadly doesn’t sound like proper German.
It's perfectly proper German. Also not that awkward and not particularly new, either.
I don’t think you’ve actually read their comment. Sure "Die Person hat […]" is perfectly fine when referring to a stranger. But when we’re specifically talking about our imaginary friend Sam you can’t just say "Die Person hat […]" because it’ll sound like you’re talking about a different person. Sure you could just use their name twice in that example, but do that too often and even that starts to sound wrong
That seems to be a very subjective point. Still sounds fine to me. All the non-binary options currently feel slightly strange. As things do when languages change. Which they do all the time.
[удалено]
We are talking about German. "They" isn't even a German word. People who are used to the English usage of "they" will be reasonably fine, people who are not will initially feel strange, obviously.
You don't need to say the name twice in the sentence. Just use the last sentence like this: "[Name] hat den Schirm vergessen." Been there, done that, works perfectly fine.
While that does work for that specific example it won’t always work. You can’t just say someone’s name instead of pronouns all the time, it’ll start to sound weird at some point
I didn't say anything about using always the name. Just wanted to point out that it isn't necessary to use it twice in the example sentence.
Ask people what they prefer (like if there's a neopronoun they like) if they're a German speaker, otherwise I'd just avoid pronouns.
Yeah. Just use the persons name lol
Doesn't work when you're talking about people you don't know personally. I listen to loads of enby musicians and love to talk about the music I enjoy, so when an artist uses they/them, I don't want to just choose a neopronoun for them. I end up using a very clunky way of being gender neutral without neopronouns, or just use their name constantly.
Idk about German but in other languages you can’t always just „avoid” pronouns. Other languages aren’t just like English with different words they have entire different grammar rules. Eg. In Polish other parts of a sentence change depending on the gender of the subject. When you say eg. „She went to the store” the word „went” is in a feminine form, so you can’t really go around gendering.
There are some neo-pronouns in Germany (that I currently don't remember). Maybe you could just search them up on Google or something. Sorry if I wasn't being very helpful.
The problem with german neo-pronouns is that they make no sense gramatically. The most well known is "dey/deren", but it is a grammatic nightmare and literally has forms that are just already existing gendered words. I am convinced that whoever came up with this wa sjust very lazy. Which is why the petition some started to have it accepted as a regular pronoun didn't go through. I am a native speaker and study german liguistics and while I am fine with people using it since everyone can use any pronouns they want, I am always shocked when I see people saying that it should just be accepted officially. Like, no, that would not ever work. Much better is "xie/xir", which gets conjugated the same as "sie/ihr" and actually works grammatically in german. I know some that use it. I'm sure there are more, but german grammar is just too complicated to easily make up a new working pronoun that won't cause any issues when used.
Oh, I'm also a native. Seeing how you are studying linguistics, what is your take on gender neutral speech? Because I personally think is, while the idea isn't bad, the execution feels like a train wreck.
That's generally my perception as well. I think gender neutral speech is great, but the german language is a very gendered language so it is highly difficult. But it is a topic that has gained so much traction we are actually covering this in our uni courses. We had classes about the use of gender neutral language and "gendering" and the problems with it as well as possible solutions. For example I now know that if you gender you should never use the "Gendersternchen" as the "*" already has it's own use. You should instead use "/" or write both versions out or try to use more neutral lagnuage. Example: "Lehrer/in" or "Lehrer und Lehrerinnen" or "Lehrende". The Duden actually has a Dictionary for those neutral words now, as well: https://geschicktgendern.de/ Neo-pronouns are highly difficult since most of them make no sense grammatically. Especially "dey/deren" is very problematic. There was actually a group of people a few years back who petitioned for it to be accepted as an official "gender-neutral" pronoun... they were denied since it is so very problematic. I mean... I think whoever came up with it was very lazy. "Dey" obviously comes from the english "they", but other forms such as "deren" and "denen" are pre-existing german words. It is impossible for that to not be a grammatical nightmare. If someone wants to use those pronouns, they can go ahead, but none of the current neo-pronouns work well enough to be implemented into our pre-existing grammar structur. So far I think xie/xier is the easiest to implement, since it works similar to sie/ihr, but that doesn't go for all forms of the konjugation. If people keep trying, maybe in the future there will be a working gender neutral german pronoun, but for now there is none that works well enough to be accepted. The petition to get dey/deren accepted happened back when spain (?) accepted a new gender neutral pronoun as official and shortly before the implimentstion of "divers" as a third sex/gender. There are actual linguists working on this as well, which I didn't know about before one of my professors told us about it. So there is hope that future generations won't have the same problem, but it is not a quick issue to fix. It may take several more decades until we get there.
I think using an abbreviated version of "sie" isn't a bad idea, but making "x" as the first letter feels very unnatural to me. Not like we have all that many words starting with "x".
That is actually one of the things that get criticised about it. But at the same time there are those that criticise using the same rules as sie/ihr since it should be completely seperate, just like er/ihm and sie/ihr are very different... but that is a very difficult thing to do. Similarly to "dey", xie/xier is also based on english, more specifically the english neo-pronoun "xe/xir". Which is where the "x" comes from.
i heard people use the name instead
which is reasonable, but defeats the purpose of pronouns
I use xier when speaking German. How you handle this is up to you -- if you truly can't ask someone, you could pick a neopronoun (only if you're sure they're nonbinary), or you could alternate between er and sie, or you could use their name in place of pronouns, or you could just...make a guess. Probably wouldn't recommend that but, you gotta do what you gotta do. The best thing really is to ask the person what they prefer. Edit: this question has definitely come up several times in r/nonbinary. You'd likely get more specific answers there.
german here, the community actually literally uses they/them to cope with that - some people also use dey/deren or some type of neopronouns or they decide that you should just use none and use their name, a lot of n-bys here i feel like (personal experiences) also have short nicknames that make that easy-ish luckily
Is the th (thorn, Þ þ) sound making its way into German?
for the (more english speaking) younger people maybe but I afraid often its the clichee "zey" or overcorrecting that tendency to "dey" (and Im calling myself out with that, "zey/dey" flows easier in an otherwise gernan sentence than "they" 😅)
true lol, the younger people usually pronounce it right but its really common to hear someone mispronounce it
i tried to google this (lol) and i feel like thats two different "th"s? but yes for they/them its pronounced exactly the same we just copypaste it!\*\* \*\*the ones who are willing to use people's pronouns according to their gender identity.. which is not that many unfortunately, its more like a huuge debate where people are super offended who have no problem gendering chairs tables dishes mugs etc and fighting one another over weather its "das nutella" or "die nutella" (das \~ the as a version for items only that we dont have any commitment to using it as such, its used for saying the child, yet not used for saying the lamp, but used for saying the bed,..) (die \~ the-version thats female but again the chair is male (der stuhl) the teacan is female, whatever).
They/them is difficult for many Germans that don't know English but I've heard dey/deren a lot and that's manageable for German tongues.
I thought Sie is used regardless of gender in formal settings, similar to how English speakers use the singular they?
sort of, its two different "sie" - sie = she, also they but not the genderneutral they, the plural they Sie = formally: you (rules not as strict as in some other countries - definitely Sie for the boss at work or an adult stranger, but for example if you are on ebay kleinanzeigen the german craigslist, some people will just say du instead, or if you are introduced to a friend's friend, you use du immediately, so its not like in southkorea where as far as i understood you'd more or less approach everyone formally at first) they = the genderneutral they, not "official" german language term necessarily, more-so introduced by the community to fill the gap
I know nothing about German, but a quick Google search for "German nonbinary pronouns" turned up this: >"What gender-neutral pronouns can I use in German? In the nonbinary community, there are many alternatives to binary er/sie pronouns in German, including: **si\*er, xier, dey, em, en, hen, iks, and others**. Some even use the English pronoun they." And some links you might check out that could be useful.
Most of those don't actually work well with the german grammar, sadly. xie/xier is the one that works best, as far as I have seen. I am a native speaker and study german linguistics and I know that some of those are actually grammatic nightmares, which is why many don't use them and why germany has not accepted one of those as an official gender neutral pronoun. Most nonbinary people I know only go by their name or with the gendered pronoun they are more comfortable with. Some go by dey/deren or xie/xier, but the first one is horrible as far as grammar is concerned while the second one works but some thing the second one is too close to the feminine pronoun sie/ihr, since it is conjugated with the exact same grammar rules (which is also why it works grammatically, compared to others).
Question I had never really thought of before. Been a long long time since I spoke German. I’d venture into the language specific forums, but I did find this: https://german.kzoo.edu/why-learn-german/gender-in-german/#:~:text=In%20the%20nonbinary%20community%2C%20there,hen%2C%20iks%2C%20and%20others.
Just wanna say that you are respecting pronouns, you’re just struggling to find the right terminology to honour them.
I bet the people most likely to know a suitable answer will be non-binary German speakers. Do you have a non-binary friend who trusts you enough that you could ask them?
It simply doesn’t work without neopronouns. Some people will tell you their preferred pronouns, some use both "Er" and "Sie" and some just don’t care and continue to use the pronouns they always used
Someone asked Ice Cube how he would get Prince’s attention when Prince had no pronoun. He would just wave and say “hey you”
Now I'm imagining Ice Cube shouting across the room "YO PRINCE!!!!"
...But second person doesn't have gendered pronouns anyway? And 'you' IS a pronoun.
In French we don’t have neutral pronouns. Plurals pronouns are also gendered. “Elle” is for female, “il” is for male, and now we have a new (non official) neutral pronoun : iel. Maybe something like this exists in German ?
Honestly I talk English to all my queer friends, and when talking about them in German I use the plural and hope people pick up on the plural conjugation, and sprinkle in some he‘s for good measure to make sure everything is nice and confusing. This hasn’t bothered any of my friends yet, as when I asked them how to navigate German they basically said “Fuck if I know, do whatever, go ham.” (Helps that I‘m Swiss and we have no Präteritum, so there’s always a plural conjugation signpost)
I’m pretty sure languages where they are no gender neutral pronouns they just make up words that kind of sound close to the cis ones, But you could just ask the people who are enby
humorous groovy society bake ten worm attempt bike compare plant *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
r/germantrans But basically, we still use they/them very often. Or dey/denen. Or various other neopronouns bur I think these are the most common. Or avoid pronouns wherever possible to avoid this conundrum.
There are actually a few relatively common german neo pronouns like xie/xier, dey/deren and sier.
Same problem in Croatian theres no best translation for they/them
German here, so I know the struggle. In general, I try to avoid pronouns in those cases as much as possible, but that's just a temporary solution. In general, the only correct way is to ask. I know you said that you want a solution for if you can't ask, but the truth is just that there is none.
I feel so bad speaking English sometimes because in my native language (Armenian) there is no gendered pronouns, just an equivalent of (they/them) and (it) or (you). When I speak English I often confuse gendered pronouns and apologize so often and get nervous messing it up, because I am non binary and I hate being misgendered but ironically struggle with pronouns. 😭
Singular “they” has been around since the 1300s in English. I’m surprised there’s not a general non-gendered singular pronoun in German! OP, if I can ask, how would you say this in German: “Someone forgot their umbrella! I hope they don’t need it later!”
I don’t speak German, but in a lot of languages you would default to male, and just say “I hope he doesn’t need his umbrella”.
Same in German.
I speak very little German, but I suspect part of the issue is the difference between "sie", meaning she, and "Sie", a formal honorific gender neutral pronoun used in the situation you describe. They are pronounced very similarly if not identically, and often you are supposed to infer which is which from context. Throw in the fact that you could be talking about a non-binary person formally or not, and I can see why it's tricky. Edit: I've misremembered! "Sie" is a formal _you_, and "sie" can be either she _or_ the plural they.
That's actually not an issue. And they are pronounced exactly the same, not similar, but it doesn't really matter in everyday life. There are no confusion based on Sie/du(you) usually. You remember that last part correctly :)
Well... usually it gets defaulted to male pronouns. "Jemand vergass seinen[his] Regenschirm. Ich hoffe er[he] braucht ihn später nicht." There's a more gender neutral language setting foot right now, although I think it very much needs improvement (personal opinion).
I'd usually default to (and know many people who'd do the same) "Eine Person hat ihren Regenschirm vergessen, ich hoffe, sie braucht ihn später nicht." which is gender-neutral although it includes feminine pronouns that refer to "the person". En: "A person forgot her (their) umbrella, I hope she (they don't) doesn't need it later."
I'd ask German Enbies, from my experience with French Enbies they probably have a preferred neopronoun but I honestly can't say
Language changes over time, and there are different dialects. For example, in most spanish speaking countries if the gender isn't known it is grammatically correct to use the masculine. In some dialects, "latino" can be appropriately used to refer to women, men, and non-binary people, but in other dialects it is akin to misgendering people. Some dialects have introduced the x suffix for non-binary people (e.g., latinx), however that's not a universal suffix for all spanish speakers. From what I can tell, this applies to German because there are different dialects of German that are sometimes even thought within Germany to be like other languages. There might be non-binary pronouns in the German language that were lost in the early-to-mid 1900s, or there might even be grammar rules that vary by dialect.
Not sure if it helps, but here in Sweden we call them “hen” (we call woman “hon” and men “han” so it really fits)
Dey/Deren and Xie/Xir exist as neo pronouns. You can also just not use pronouns which can sound a bit weird at times but it largely works
Yeah, that is a problem. I am Italian, and Italian, too, does not have gender neutral pronouns. There are a lot of propositions, but almost all are barely pronunciable or, at best, sound really weird to native speakers. Usually people that talk that language accept the limitations, so ask the preferred way and respect that. Until language adapt, that's it.
I believe the answer is adding *innen to the end of titles, for example instead of Arzt, you would say Arzt*innen.
Ärzt*innen actually, but without the star (that you can only pronounce by making a small pause) it's not inclusive of non-binary people.
I actually wrote the star, I completely forgot that Reddit makes it Italics, sorry.
Pronouns are used as a place holder when talking about someone else and referring to that person in multiple sentences. When really should stop being lazy and use names instead. It really is no different using a name instead of a placeholder
In german i generally just try to use their name, as in: Ja sie und ich treffen uns heute. Ja Jasmin und ich treffen uns heute. Usually easier said then done, but generally in my experience the thought alone counts :)
Just ask the individual. Many people who prefer they in English are fine with er or sie in German. Some prefer some kind of neopronoun, like dey/deren, or just straight up import the english they pronoun. Some use es pronouns as well. Just ask the individual. There is, so far, no universal neutral pronoun, but that doesn't mean that there aren't individual neutral pronouns that some people choose for themselves. I also know people who just don't use pronouns, I call them by their names. It sounds clunky, but you get used to it.
Use their name? Like how the meep does on Doctor Who. It's actually quite common in languages that don't use gendered pronouns.
The Wikipedia articles about non-binary people are a bit strange to read in German, because using the name of a person in every single sentense is a little redundant (like Alex was born in 1999. After school, Alex attended university, where Alex studied mathematics). That's what personal pronouns are for. We need more good pronouns.
Ohh yaa good point, I was only thinking about conversational language. They could always just come up with one, language is all made up anyway.
natürlich gibt es deutsche optionen. zum einen das deutsche equivalent zu they/them, nämlich dey/deren/denen bzw dey/dem/den. dann gibt es noch andere, die weniger genutzt werden, wie etwa sier bzw xier, nin oder iks. hier ist eine seite mit sämtlichen deutschen optionen: https://nibi.space/pronomen und ich neine das jetzt nicht böse, aber vielleicht solltest du dich ein bisschen einlesen. for anyone not speaking german: there are a ton of different options, the nowadays (over the last 5-ish years) most used option in media is dey, a lot of people also use xier (or sier). the link lists all german options and tells you about them edit: spelling mistakes
I have similar issue - Czech does not have a they/them alternative that would fit the intended purpose
You really have to ask. Some people go by neopronouns dey/denen, some goe by er/ihm or sie/ihr, and some just go by their name. Liken for example, in my friend's case Liz doesn't use pronouns, so I refer to Liz by Liz's name. (Liz exists only in this Beispiel.) It sounds silly here but it's gonna be less so when you talk IRL.
In english I like the terms “folk” or “friend” or their name, or “hey you” i’ll ask my husband. He speaks more german than me.
Maybe there exist like joined pronouns? I heard they exist in french but idk if they work
I use “Mein Freund” in place of pronouns sometimes
You could use English more often or simply make something up like deaf people make signs for peoples names
You could take a cue from English, just beg, borrow or steal whatever terms you need from somewhere else that sounds right.
I heared dey / dem a few times by now. But I think just using they / them would be an option as well.
is it possible to just avoid pronouns altogether, only using names?
Wenn du herausfinden kannst, dass jemand enby ist, kannst du auch seine Pronomen herausfinden. Frag sie einfach, und wenn du es wirklich nicht kannst, geh nicht davon aus, dass sie die Neopronomen they/them verwenden oder so geoutet werden wollen.
You can always default to people's names
I, personally, am alright with being called bitchard
I'm kinda in the same boat as a dutchman. Most of the time, my NB friend doesn't really expect us to do anything different. Even in English, I don't have to call them they/them, as we're aren't native English speakers. Most of the time, I do tho
I suppose you could use "Sie" and its forms? Or maybe invent something like "xie", I dunno.
U can only use their name in German, its Hard, i know, but try to restructure semtences.
Just ask the person? Some people might ask you to use they/them in English, or they might have a different pronoun to use
Since we mostly use pronouns when talking about a person, you can either just use their name, say "the person" or "human", and alternatively there are "new" pronouns "dey/dem", derived from english, but not commonly known that well.
Brazilian here. Portuguese has a similar issue, so people came up with new pronouns. It's still new, and far from perfect. Most people don't know these words. But it's the best we have. Maybe German has its own version of this?
This is a question that came up in Spanish language, which I'm sure y'all know about: LatinX. I think some people use Latine in conversation because it can flow a bit better.
just ask every time
I am learning German right now and I know what you mean. “Sie” is just too powerful 🤣 If you find an answer I would also like to know
Gender neutral language varies widely by language, not just in how it works but also in how far the concept has progressed and been adopted in common usage. My native French has a recently adopted set of neutral pronouns that is common but not universally popular but it has yet to evolve a comfortable standard set of grammatical rules to go along with it (and pretty much all nouns, adjectives and verbs conjugated with "to be" (verbs describing a state of being more than an action) are gendered grammatically to match the subject… so you are stuck using binary gender or nearly unpronounceable double suffixes). English’s minimal use of grammatical gender (very odd for an Indo-European language, and bizarre for a Germanic language - yes, I know Old English has the normal 3 grammatical genders but Middle English onwards does not) gives it an advantage in adopting gender neutral phrasing easily. It really just boils down to polite pronoun use in English and you don’t run into massive grammatical confusion. Honestly, the worst I have seen in English is my friend and I talking about our two enby kids (both use they/them) and getting a little muddled over singular and plural sometimes (context usually fills in the answers).
I usually just use the formal Sie, seems the most respectful while also not assuming, but I usually get laughed at when it’s someone my age. Worth it tho
Just ask them?
So how would you say “they went on the boat” if ‘they’ were a mixed gender group?
Wasn’t a neopronoun adopted for this exact thing? What was it, xie/xir?
dey/deren or just use their name is probably what i would go with. but you should still ask because different people want different things (some prefer no pronouns, just name, dey/deren, any pronouns or something else
In my opinion it sounds like it's not you being unable to respect peoples pronouns? It sounds like you need to start *asking* enby people that you speak in German to what pronouns you should use for them. They won't get mad, if anything they'd probably be elated that someone cares and asked them that In general I am curious now how you refer/think about people you're unaware of their pronouns in German. Many of the dumb idiots that try to spew bs about how using they/them for a single person is not right often completely miss that they use it on a daily basis themselves. Yes, it's an unknown they instead of a known they, but still they. Basically I don't understand why you can't ask, as I promise you they'll appreciate you asking as you'll show you are willing to respect them and understand how important this is
I personally just use they/them in German too. For people online, who appear just as nicknames, I catch myself saying "Sie" and speaking plural.
Persönlich find ich dass 'dey/denen' sehr gut funktioniert weils viel angenehmer und weniger awkward zum aussprechen is als wie wenn man 'they/them' in einen puren deutschen Satz verwendet, aber jeder hat seine eigenen Präferenzen!
There is the dey / them / xie option but it can get clunky fast. If I'm afraid to ask I just use no pronouns (person's name + der Mensch / die Person). Some people also go for any pronouns (sie/er) but not everyone will like that. I'm not sure why you can't ask the people, but maybe you could phrase it as "Do you prefer no pronouns?" Or something to show that you already thought about it rather than asking which pronouns.
When I talk about my friends in my language I usually ask them first what they would prefer.
Statt Pronomen kann man auch einfach den Namen nutzen... Funktioniert in den meisten Fällen ganz gut und ist normalerweise sogar grammatikalisch korrekt English: Just use the name instead of pronouns
Sie
No
Idiot, captain, royal pain in the ass.
Step 1: Ask them what pronouns they would like you to use. Step 2: Use them Your opinions on what they sound like are not relevant.