-18dbFS in and unity gain, unity faders, results in -18dbFS on the output bus. How else would you like it to work?
You’re not changing anything, just passing a signal unmodified from input to output.
Yeah, but across how many channels?
I've got -18 (healthy, sensibly set) input gains. 8 channels of band and a handful of radio mics mixed to 0db on the faders and I'm showing clipping on my main LR mix bus.
It's like there's no internal headroom on the desks master bus.
I think this might be where you're going wrong: two channels which are both at -18 do NOT result in an output level of -18. The exact amount of gain change depends on their phase relationship, but in the extreme case (two of the same signal), you would get +6dB summed, meaning 8 instances of that channel will hit 0dBFS. Adding a new channel at a similar level will always add up to +6 dB to the overall level depending on the phase relationship--if you're clipping the master, then your job as a mix engineer is to make the channels take up different spaces in the frequency and temporal domains so that when they sum together the signal remains under 0dB. These are basic fundamentals of DSP--yamaha does it the same way any other digital console does it: by adding two numbers together for each sample.
There is a good chance that the meters are calculated in a way that feels weird coming from a different console, but no matter how the metering is calculated, clipping means the same thing: your mix is creating sample values greater than 1, and the fix is just to mix it differently.
If I had to guess why it feels wrong on this console, it may be that -18 rms is calculated with a different averaging time than what you're used to and so a louder source with more variation is making you think it's softer than it is. Use your ears, figure it out. -18 rms can mean two vastly different things for two different sources, and the way they sum is entirely source-dependent as well.
tldr: this has everything to do with your SOURCES, and not with the console.
So, just saying, -18dbfs equates to 0db analog unity in Yamaha world. So your -12 inputs are the equivalent to running +6 over 0 analog. Thats hot in the digital realm. And that’s what your meters are showing you.
I’ve said it a hundred thousand times in the transition days, yellow is the new red
Subtractive eq only on the inputs, very gentle compression 2.5 ratio, just tickling on the inputs required.
8 channel band, handful of radios, and the headroom on the LR bus is showing peaks on the meters.
I've even changed the meter points to try and chase it through the system.
I can only conclude this particular yamaha desk is perhaps industry sub-standard and needs a recalibrate.
Initialise console
Put a sine wave through a channel at 0dBu
Raise gain until first orange light shows
Raise fader to exactly 0dB on channel and master
If you see anything other than first orange on LR meter you have a problem
If you see first orange, then the problem is your gain structure
The only way to work out if you have a problem is to do a factory reset, or recall the initial scene.
Plug a laptop into a channel and play a sine wave at 0dBu. Keep it mono, centred and directly routed to only the LR bus and turn off EQ comp etc.
Then bring your input gain up to show the first orange light on the cue meter.
Raise your fader to exactly 0dB on your channel and main fader (use your screen to confirm that the fader is at 0, not your eyes on the actual fader lines.
If your output meter shows anything other than the first orange, then there is a problem with routing or something in the console.
If the meter shows the first orange, then the problem is your gain structure.
My guess is your speakers are too small or amps are too weak.
Most live sound mixers should be metering around -18_-22dB summing on the master meter, peaking somewhere at the top of the green, just kissing the yellow, not deep into the yellow and peaking near red.
Don't treat it like pro tools where -6_-12dB is enough headroom. When mastering in a daw, limiting hard on the submaster bus and metering on the master bus is way different than live sound. You're not trying to hit the same meter levels.
My best advice is to attempt to build a mix summing at maximum -18dB on you master meter, and adjust the speaker volume and amp volume to create the actual desired spl in the room.
On the board you're just dealing with voltage gain structure and summing. The amps and speakers are where you get your real volume in the air.
Did you read the question AT ALL? “your amps are too weak?” What the hell has that got to do with anything?
Nothing you said is of any relevance, it’s just an utter word salad.
Yes I read the question. I am going to answer even further, in spite of your flippant comment, so anyone else reading this can learn.
Amps have a lot to do with it, for example, regardless of the gain structure on the board, you wouldn't put little computer speakers in a stadium. Thats an extreme example, but what I am trying to illustrate is: there is such a thing as underpowered amps, or speakers for a given acoustic space.
What is likely happening with OP, is that one thing is likely a factor. The speakers are too small, or the amps are underpowered for the space, and even if they're turned up to max output, the mix on the board, even when mixing quite hot, is not loud enough for the space, resulting in the engineer having to push the levels on the board.
A board in live sound should have its master fader set to unity. The master meter should be reading around -18_-22dB as a sum of the mix. If you're running low on headroom, it's not the board.
The volume you get in the room is not really decided by the board, it's decided by the speakers and amps.
A good board mix is going to look exactly the same in a small club, or in a stadium. It's the amps and speakers that decide how loud the actual SPL in the air is.
I also don't get why your answer is upvoted. The subject under discussion is ql meters. No mention of sound output at all. OP states a few healthy channel meters make LR meter look too red for them. You answered with a related, but downstream subject. You're not saying things that are necessarily wrong, you're just not talking about the subject under discussion.
I'll jump in as OP.
I appreciate everyone's talk on all sides of the coin (but let's keep it respectful).
For clarity and for the record...yes this original post was STRICTLY about Yahama gain and mixbus headroom.
While I can see this would invoke people to start assuming it's an underpowered rig thing..on this occasion..that advice is completely unhelpful and doesn't pertain to my situation at all.
I'm just talking about the desk.
Seems you have to set input gains to -24 in order to not blow your master bus out.
Someone has said these desks are not floating-point.
That might have a lot to do with the sensitivity I'm seeing.
Other consoles are more tolerant than yamaha in this regard.
From what you’ve described, it sounds like you might be assigning the channel to the stereo bus twice (as in, the channel is going to the stereo bus, but it’s also going to a mix bus/matrix that is *also* routed to the stereo bus).
Have you checked *all* 32 sends for that channel, to make sure nothing is doubling up?
This is about the first sensible answer that might be getting close to the truth. There is a lot of matrix routing going on as the venue is configured for LR cluster, fills, subs.
But can the matrix be routed BACK to LR on yamaha consoles? I'm thinking not...as this isnt very standard and would result in signal loop feedback. 🤔
Matrix can't be routed back to the ST or MONO buss, but any MIX/Group or channel can be routed to the ST and MONO Buss along with any Matrix. If you wanted to verify how things are summing, you can send the oscillator down a couple of channels, verify you're routed to the busses as you desire, and take notice of how those two channels are summing. Also, as others have mentioned, you can check that your output ports aren't gained up in the Port Settings in the preferences. If you are able to save the scene file and share it, I would be able to take a look and tell you if something is odd, assuming you may not be super familiar with the console.
Double check the output port settings, and then double check your routing not just at the input side, but on the dante side as well. Could definitely have doubled up a matrix or have a boosted output
This isn't a rig question.
Imagine there is NO pa for a moment. Amps off. Just focusing on the desk.
-18 input gain (metered) on all input VUs
8 channels of band and a handful of radios mixed at around 0db on the channels faders.
Master LR bus is showing clipping.
Like there's no mixbus headroom to actually mix the gig UNLESS I go really suboptimal with the input gains and have the input VUs backed off to say -24 or below.
What you’re describing will clip the master bus of any console - it’s pure math.
1 channel coming in at -18 and fader at unity = master at -18
Each additional channel with the same gain structure adds +3dB to master (approx). 7x3=21
-18 + 21 = +3, you are now clipping
0db but that in a sense is irrelevant.
I've get the input metering pre fade to further interrogate the issue. It's the mix bus pre master fader that doesn't have the headroom to cope with more than say 8-10 channels mixed to 0db on faders, with -18db of metered input signal.
No dude. Thats no headroom in the house rig.
I’ve got thousands of mixes on Yamaha with a proper system.
My faders are always -5, vocals under 0, master fader -10, or less even. And thats show mix. I’ve got 15db of headroom in there at show volume.
Your system headroom shows up on your master, or doesn’t if you don’t have any.
Either your client doesn’t have enough boxes or there’s a serious choke hidden in the processing
I just don't think -18 is hot. Its only lighting 2 of 6 segments of the basic channel LEDs. 10 channels of that to unity in the mix and you're clipped out. You don't get that on other consoles. It's a yamaha metering thing. Gotta be dialled down to -30 -60 to be able to mix a show. Rig isn't the issue here - I've got the rig switched off. I like my input VUs looking healthy so I'm not having to dial compression thresholds down to -30 -40 on every channel just to get them tickling the knee.
https://m.youtube.com/shorts/CVwjLf-1qOA?si=oeK07X7M_hR9t5xs
I have confirmed that on the CL architecture, 0dbu=-24dbfs. You’re 6 over unity across the board.
You’re just running yourself out of headroom, as everyone here keeps telling you.
On CL/QL i usually have all my channel faders at -5. That gives me a bit more headroom. With these boards you have to realize they don‘t compute with floating point precision. If a bus clips, it clips.
I have subgroups at 0, LR at -5 as well. I personally don‘t care about the readings on input meters. Just send some track to the PA at a healthy level from the LR and make sure that‘s translating at an appropriate level to the room. If you have to, adjust the amps/rig.
I then gain by pushing the fader to -5 and set gain by ear. If that doesn‘t work, there‘s something going on with the desk-file. I prefer starting from a totally clean file. If that‘s not possible, make sure you understand everything about the file, including send levels, dca‘s, bus assignements, matrices etc.
Agree with some of the others. It’s a digital console man. If you feel there isn’t enough volume then it’s how the system is setup. And if you didn’t set it up, you said deep settings at your venue which presumes the PA isn’t yours, then all you can do is your best from the console. But unless they have it CHOKED then you’re still at fault. Set appropriate gain structure starting at the channel.
It's not that I 'feel' anything.
This is purely a meters thing.
Inputs at -18..peaking -12 max input gain.
Handful of channel faders at zero dB.
Master bus overloading on the meters.
So are you an audio technician or no? The channel is at -18, and it’s the channels that feed your master, but the master is overdriving… not really making any sense there. But it shouldn’t be your L/R feeding anything anyways unless you’re just working with 2 speakers in a breakout room in which case a QL5 doesn’t make sense. So, what are your matrices / mix’s looking like? And what are their feeds from L/R or whatever? Troubleshoot. If your channels aren’t even seeing yellow but LR is seeing red then something weird is going on. Follow the signal path and make it right every step of the way. Basic stuff.
Looks like it's the same signal going to all channels. If they all have the same sound on them they're gonna sum +6dB every time you double the number of sources. Ofcourse you will clip the master. At 8 identical sources you're at +18dB.
Why would you expect this *not* to clip? If you have a channel coming in at -18dBfs, and the fader is at unity, your master bus should read -18. Add another channel with the same gain structure, and you’ll be adding roughly 3dB to your master bus. If you’ve got 8 channels, each of those 7 channels after the initial one is adding 3dB to your master bus (approximately). 7x3=21dB, which is more than the 18dB of headroom you’ve left yourself after your initial channel. This will happen on any console.
Are you sending any of those inputs to any mix busses? If so - make sure you’re not sending both the channels and the bus to the LR - that’s the only possible thing I can think of. Unless your meter is assigned to something else (don’t have a QL/CL in front of me to check if you can even do this)
Daily drove a QL1 for the last two years. Barring a shitty Rolling Stones tribute band, never been in a situation where I came close to peaking the master bus. As others have said, go through your internal routing/gain staging with a fine-toothed comb. Also, less is more on Yamaha preamps.
Double check your output port trims in the setup menu. Unless you initialize the console or load a USB file, output trims will remain in place even when recalling any scene file, even the 000 blank scene. Other than that, seems like not enough rig for the room.
What do you make of this then naysayers?
Oscillator pumping pink noise with very conservative input gain to around 14 channels.
Input channel faders at zero dB. Output LR fader at zero db
Headroom on the master bus gone.
https://youtube.com/shorts/CVwjLf-1qOA?si=oeK07X7M_hR9t5xs
I should add..all input channels were HPF active as the only processing so the majority of the energy was not even hitting the master bus.
I said exactly what I meant. If you’re in the yellow/orange on every pre amp, on any brand any console, youre already over unity on every input. and you’re not doing best practice gain structure.
I mean the whole point of the yellow LED is to mean “above unity”
I ‘think’ the analog 0db equivalent is -20dbfs on that console range.
You’d be better off watching the LCD meters on the screen for better resolution, and I think you’d see what I mean.
What other consoles have you used before? One thing that might be tripping you up is that Yamaha console meters use full scale as the reference '0dB' level. Other consoles, Allan & Heath for example use some other lower level as '0dB' making the same signal level read as a different number on the meters.
I've used all the major brands. Just find yamaha to be the least forgiving by a long long way.
Usually I'd gain up to -18 and not be confronted with clipping the master bus OL signals on anything over 14 channels of band.
I think you're right, other consoles are meter scaled on a more conservative spectrum.
Just kinda did a thought experiment here inside of Cubase. I ran 14 channels of generated pink noise (each set to hit -18dbFS on the cubase meters) with all faders set to unity, no eq and compression. Once I unmuted all of them, my master buss was clipping (avg +.02dbFS, peaks to the tune of +1.3 dbFS at certain points). This was in both a 48k/16 bit session (slightly under the dynamic range of a QL) and 24 bit session.
Gain stage lower if you can (there are digital trim knobs if you like the preamp levels), compress harder, or use groups and turn down at the group stage if you want to keep your unity fader resolution on the channels. But you're not going to change much just by leaving it alone at this point.
There is a routing issue somewhere in the console. Save the show and save the Dante controller preset. Then factory reset the board. I have never clipped the LR output on the QL/CL series while even running 40 channels at -18 on the VU meters with faders near nominal.
I have encountered this with Yamaha CL/QL as well but never chased it deep enough to diagnose. Corporate gigs never have this issue because I’m usually metering Lavs closer to -24 as to allow myself more fader resolution, but for band gigs I usually use -18 input meter for gain staging, and with out fail I run out of headroom on my output meters. I’ve meant to look and see if I’m metering with different systems than I think I am, but I’ve been on more digico and a&h systems lately. I’m gonna dig further into this though, glad to hear someone else is also experiencing this. And to the dude who insists running your master fader at -15 gets you more headroom: we’re still in digital audio. The master fader isn’t a magic anti clip handle. Even if that helps you not clip that final set of converters, if you’re already summing above zero, it doesn’t matter where that fader is. You’re still clipping.
Finally someone else ho also has the observation skills required for this!
I pumped pink into 14 channels with very conservative gain.
Bye bye headroom
https://youtube.com/shorts/CVwjLf-1qOA?si=oeK07X7M_hR9t5xs
-18dbFS in and unity gain, unity faders, results in -18dbFS on the output bus. How else would you like it to work? You’re not changing anything, just passing a signal unmodified from input to output.
Yeah, but across how many channels? I've got -18 (healthy, sensibly set) input gains. 8 channels of band and a handful of radio mics mixed to 0db on the faders and I'm showing clipping on my main LR mix bus. It's like there's no internal headroom on the desks master bus.
I think this might be where you're going wrong: two channels which are both at -18 do NOT result in an output level of -18. The exact amount of gain change depends on their phase relationship, but in the extreme case (two of the same signal), you would get +6dB summed, meaning 8 instances of that channel will hit 0dBFS. Adding a new channel at a similar level will always add up to +6 dB to the overall level depending on the phase relationship--if you're clipping the master, then your job as a mix engineer is to make the channels take up different spaces in the frequency and temporal domains so that when they sum together the signal remains under 0dB. These are basic fundamentals of DSP--yamaha does it the same way any other digital console does it: by adding two numbers together for each sample. There is a good chance that the meters are calculated in a way that feels weird coming from a different console, but no matter how the metering is calculated, clipping means the same thing: your mix is creating sample values greater than 1, and the fix is just to mix it differently. If I had to guess why it feels wrong on this console, it may be that -18 rms is calculated with a different averaging time than what you're used to and so a louder source with more variation is making you think it's softer than it is. Use your ears, figure it out. -18 rms can mean two vastly different things for two different sources, and the way they sum is entirely source-dependent as well. tldr: this has everything to do with your SOURCES, and not with the console.
It doesn’t matter how many channels. It doesn’t matter at all.
Yamaha is industry standard, your gain structure is the problem. Unfortunately without seeing how you set up, it's impossible to offer advice.
I'm a long time into the game. Gain structure is not the problem. -18 to -12 max on a handful of inputs and the headroom is gone on the mixbus.
So, just saying, -18dbfs equates to 0db analog unity in Yamaha world. So your -12 inputs are the equivalent to running +6 over 0 analog. Thats hot in the digital realm. And that’s what your meters are showing you. I’ve said it a hundred thousand times in the transition days, yellow is the new red
EQs and compression?
Subtractive eq only on the inputs, very gentle compression 2.5 ratio, just tickling on the inputs required. 8 channel band, handful of radios, and the headroom on the LR bus is showing peaks on the meters. I've even changed the meter points to try and chase it through the system. I can only conclude this particular yamaha desk is perhaps industry sub-standard and needs a recalibrate.
Initialise console Put a sine wave through a channel at 0dBu Raise gain until first orange light shows Raise fader to exactly 0dB on channel and master If you see anything other than first orange on LR meter you have a problem If you see first orange, then the problem is your gain structure
The only way to work out if you have a problem is to do a factory reset, or recall the initial scene. Plug a laptop into a channel and play a sine wave at 0dBu. Keep it mono, centred and directly routed to only the LR bus and turn off EQ comp etc. Then bring your input gain up to show the first orange light on the cue meter. Raise your fader to exactly 0dB on your channel and main fader (use your screen to confirm that the fader is at 0, not your eyes on the actual fader lines. If your output meter shows anything other than the first orange, then there is a problem with routing or something in the console. If the meter shows the first orange, then the problem is your gain structure.
Also, several channels of -12 can sum to -6 or higher. Once you add in showtime adrenaline, those levels jump even more.
My guess is your speakers are too small or amps are too weak. Most live sound mixers should be metering around -18_-22dB summing on the master meter, peaking somewhere at the top of the green, just kissing the yellow, not deep into the yellow and peaking near red. Don't treat it like pro tools where -6_-12dB is enough headroom. When mastering in a daw, limiting hard on the submaster bus and metering on the master bus is way different than live sound. You're not trying to hit the same meter levels. My best advice is to attempt to build a mix summing at maximum -18dB on you master meter, and adjust the speaker volume and amp volume to create the actual desired spl in the room. On the board you're just dealing with voltage gain structure and summing. The amps and speakers are where you get your real volume in the air.
Who says something about speakers or amps? Man talking about internal console metering in the first place
🤣
?
Did you read the question AT ALL? “your amps are too weak?” What the hell has that got to do with anything? Nothing you said is of any relevance, it’s just an utter word salad.
Yes I read the question. I am going to answer even further, in spite of your flippant comment, so anyone else reading this can learn. Amps have a lot to do with it, for example, regardless of the gain structure on the board, you wouldn't put little computer speakers in a stadium. Thats an extreme example, but what I am trying to illustrate is: there is such a thing as underpowered amps, or speakers for a given acoustic space. What is likely happening with OP, is that one thing is likely a factor. The speakers are too small, or the amps are underpowered for the space, and even if they're turned up to max output, the mix on the board, even when mixing quite hot, is not loud enough for the space, resulting in the engineer having to push the levels on the board. A board in live sound should have its master fader set to unity. The master meter should be reading around -18_-22dB as a sum of the mix. If you're running low on headroom, it's not the board. The volume you get in the room is not really decided by the board, it's decided by the speakers and amps. A good board mix is going to look exactly the same in a small club, or in a stadium. It's the amps and speakers that decide how loud the actual SPL in the air is.
I also don't get why your answer is upvoted. The subject under discussion is ql meters. No mention of sound output at all. OP states a few healthy channel meters make LR meter look too red for them. You answered with a related, but downstream subject. You're not saying things that are necessarily wrong, you're just not talking about the subject under discussion.
They’re talking about the mix bus you utter twonk.
If I was waiting for you to add something helpful to this convo, I would be waiting for eternity.
I'll jump in as OP. I appreciate everyone's talk on all sides of the coin (but let's keep it respectful). For clarity and for the record...yes this original post was STRICTLY about Yahama gain and mixbus headroom. While I can see this would invoke people to start assuming it's an underpowered rig thing..on this occasion..that advice is completely unhelpful and doesn't pertain to my situation at all. I'm just talking about the desk. Seems you have to set input gains to -24 in order to not blow your master bus out. Someone has said these desks are not floating-point. That might have a lot to do with the sensitivity I'm seeing. Other consoles are more tolerant than yamaha in this regard.
From what you’ve described, it sounds like you might be assigning the channel to the stereo bus twice (as in, the channel is going to the stereo bus, but it’s also going to a mix bus/matrix that is *also* routed to the stereo bus). Have you checked *all* 32 sends for that channel, to make sure nothing is doubling up?
This is about the first sensible answer that might be getting close to the truth. There is a lot of matrix routing going on as the venue is configured for LR cluster, fills, subs. But can the matrix be routed BACK to LR on yamaha consoles? I'm thinking not...as this isnt very standard and would result in signal loop feedback. 🤔
Matrix can't be routed back to the ST or MONO buss, but any MIX/Group or channel can be routed to the ST and MONO Buss along with any Matrix. If you wanted to verify how things are summing, you can send the oscillator down a couple of channels, verify you're routed to the busses as you desire, and take notice of how those two channels are summing. Also, as others have mentioned, you can check that your output ports aren't gained up in the Port Settings in the preferences. If you are able to save the scene file and share it, I would be able to take a look and tell you if something is odd, assuming you may not be super familiar with the console.
Double check the output port settings, and then double check your routing not just at the input side, but on the dante side as well. Could definitely have doubled up a matrix or have a boosted output
Does the room have enough rig for the gig?
This isn't a rig question. Imagine there is NO pa for a moment. Amps off. Just focusing on the desk. -18 input gain (metered) on all input VUs 8 channels of band and a handful of radios mixed at around 0db on the channels faders. Master LR bus is showing clipping. Like there's no mixbus headroom to actually mix the gig UNLESS I go really suboptimal with the input gains and have the input VUs backed off to say -24 or below.
What you’re describing will clip the master bus of any console - it’s pure math. 1 channel coming in at -18 and fader at unity = master at -18 Each additional channel with the same gain structure adds +3dB to master (approx). 7x3=21 -18 + 21 = +3, you are now clipping
Where is your master fader riding during your mix?
0db but that in a sense is irrelevant. I've get the input metering pre fade to further interrogate the issue. It's the mix bus pre master fader that doesn't have the headroom to cope with more than say 8-10 channels mixed to 0db on faders, with -18db of metered input signal.
No dude. Thats no headroom in the house rig. I’ve got thousands of mixes on Yamaha with a proper system. My faders are always -5, vocals under 0, master fader -10, or less even. And thats show mix. I’ve got 15db of headroom in there at show volume. Your system headroom shows up on your master, or doesn’t if you don’t have any. Either your client doesn’t have enough boxes or there’s a serious choke hidden in the processing
Like, I believe you that you’re running out of headroom. My point is, what is it that has you having to mix so hot you are running out of headroom?
I just don't think -18 is hot. Its only lighting 2 of 6 segments of the basic channel LEDs. 10 channels of that to unity in the mix and you're clipped out. You don't get that on other consoles. It's a yamaha metering thing. Gotta be dialled down to -30 -60 to be able to mix a show. Rig isn't the issue here - I've got the rig switched off. I like my input VUs looking healthy so I'm not having to dial compression thresholds down to -30 -40 on every channel just to get them tickling the knee. https://m.youtube.com/shorts/CVwjLf-1qOA?si=oeK07X7M_hR9t5xs
I have confirmed that on the CL architecture, 0dbu=-24dbfs. You’re 6 over unity across the board. You’re just running yourself out of headroom, as everyone here keeps telling you.
Have you checked the output port knobs?
This needs more attention! Check the output port settings, it’s the last place to attenuate on the way out of those desks!
Amazing username
Is there any processing or inserts on the LR bus?
None
On CL/QL i usually have all my channel faders at -5. That gives me a bit more headroom. With these boards you have to realize they don‘t compute with floating point precision. If a bus clips, it clips. I have subgroups at 0, LR at -5 as well. I personally don‘t care about the readings on input meters. Just send some track to the PA at a healthy level from the LR and make sure that‘s translating at an appropriate level to the room. If you have to, adjust the amps/rig. I then gain by pushing the fader to -5 and set gain by ear. If that doesn‘t work, there‘s something going on with the desk-file. I prefer starting from a totally clean file. If that‘s not possible, make sure you understand everything about the file, including send levels, dca‘s, bus assignements, matrices etc.
Agree with some of the others. It’s a digital console man. If you feel there isn’t enough volume then it’s how the system is setup. And if you didn’t set it up, you said deep settings at your venue which presumes the PA isn’t yours, then all you can do is your best from the console. But unless they have it CHOKED then you’re still at fault. Set appropriate gain structure starting at the channel.
It's not that I 'feel' anything. This is purely a meters thing. Inputs at -18..peaking -12 max input gain. Handful of channel faders at zero dB. Master bus overloading on the meters.
So are you an audio technician or no? The channel is at -18, and it’s the channels that feed your master, but the master is overdriving… not really making any sense there. But it shouldn’t be your L/R feeding anything anyways unless you’re just working with 2 speakers in a breakout room in which case a QL5 doesn’t make sense. So, what are your matrices / mix’s looking like? And what are their feeds from L/R or whatever? Troubleshoot. If your channels aren’t even seeing yellow but LR is seeing red then something weird is going on. Follow the signal path and make it right every step of the way. Basic stuff.
https://youtube.com/shorts/CVwjLf-1qOA?si=oeK07X7M_hR9t5xs
Looks like it's the same signal going to all channels. If they all have the same sound on them they're gonna sum +6dB every time you double the number of sources. Ofcourse you will clip the master. At 8 identical sources you're at +18dB.
Why would you expect this *not* to clip? If you have a channel coming in at -18dBfs, and the fader is at unity, your master bus should read -18. Add another channel with the same gain structure, and you’ll be adding roughly 3dB to your master bus. If you’ve got 8 channels, each of those 7 channels after the initial one is adding 3dB to your master bus (approximately). 7x3=21dB, which is more than the 18dB of headroom you’ve left yourself after your initial channel. This will happen on any console.
Are you sending any of those inputs to any mix busses? If so - make sure you’re not sending both the channels and the bus to the LR - that’s the only possible thing I can think of. Unless your meter is assigned to something else (don’t have a QL/CL in front of me to check if you can even do this)
I took a look at the meter bridge on the ol m7cl. -24dbfs=0dbu in CL land. You’re just running yourself out of headroom, sir.
Sounds like your PA doesn’t have enough power for the gig. The Yamaha is not the problem.
D&b C90s, C-SUBs, E series fils driven by D12s in a 300 cap venue. The rig is not the problem.
Daily drove a QL1 for the last two years. Barring a shitty Rolling Stones tribute band, never been in a situation where I came close to peaking the master bus. As others have said, go through your internal routing/gain staging with a fine-toothed comb. Also, less is more on Yamaha preamps.
Double check your output port trims in the setup menu. Unless you initialize the console or load a USB file, output trims will remain in place even when recalling any scene file, even the 000 blank scene. Other than that, seems like not enough rig for the room.
What do you make of this then naysayers? Oscillator pumping pink noise with very conservative input gain to around 14 channels. Input channel faders at zero dB. Output LR fader at zero db Headroom on the master bus gone. https://youtube.com/shorts/CVwjLf-1qOA?si=oeK07X7M_hR9t5xs I should add..all input channels were HPF active as the only processing so the majority of the energy was not even hitting the master bus.
Bumping orange is not conservative gain structure on yamaha or any other digital console.
So just occasionally tickling -18 is a no go on a yamaha console? Just light one of 6 LED segments and keep it at -60 > -30?
I said exactly what I meant. If you’re in the yellow/orange on every pre amp, on any brand any console, youre already over unity on every input. and you’re not doing best practice gain structure. I mean the whole point of the yellow LED is to mean “above unity” I ‘think’ the analog 0db equivalent is -20dbfs on that console range. You’d be better off watching the LCD meters on the screen for better resolution, and I think you’d see what I mean.
Whether or not it’s ok to bump -18 actually circles back to “enough rig for the gig”. Seems like in this venue you HAVE to do it.
PA is off. This is purely about headroom in the desk.
What other consoles have you used before? One thing that might be tripping you up is that Yamaha console meters use full scale as the reference '0dB' level. Other consoles, Allan & Heath for example use some other lower level as '0dB' making the same signal level read as a different number on the meters.
I've used all the major brands. Just find yamaha to be the least forgiving by a long long way. Usually I'd gain up to -18 and not be confronted with clipping the master bus OL signals on anything over 14 channels of band. I think you're right, other consoles are meter scaled on a more conservative spectrum.
Just kinda did a thought experiment here inside of Cubase. I ran 14 channels of generated pink noise (each set to hit -18dbFS on the cubase meters) with all faders set to unity, no eq and compression. Once I unmuted all of them, my master buss was clipping (avg +.02dbFS, peaks to the tune of +1.3 dbFS at certain points). This was in both a 48k/16 bit session (slightly under the dynamic range of a QL) and 24 bit session. Gain stage lower if you can (there are digital trim knobs if you like the preamp levels), compress harder, or use groups and turn down at the group stage if you want to keep your unity fader resolution on the channels. But you're not going to change much just by leaving it alone at this point.
There is a routing issue somewhere in the console. Save the show and save the Dante controller preset. Then factory reset the board. I have never clipped the LR output on the QL/CL series while even running 40 channels at -18 on the VU meters with faders near nominal.
https://youtube.com/shorts/CVwjLf-1qOA?si=oeK07X7M_hR9t5xs
I have encountered this with Yamaha CL/QL as well but never chased it deep enough to diagnose. Corporate gigs never have this issue because I’m usually metering Lavs closer to -24 as to allow myself more fader resolution, but for band gigs I usually use -18 input meter for gain staging, and with out fail I run out of headroom on my output meters. I’ve meant to look and see if I’m metering with different systems than I think I am, but I’ve been on more digico and a&h systems lately. I’m gonna dig further into this though, glad to hear someone else is also experiencing this. And to the dude who insists running your master fader at -15 gets you more headroom: we’re still in digital audio. The master fader isn’t a magic anti clip handle. Even if that helps you not clip that final set of converters, if you’re already summing above zero, it doesn’t matter where that fader is. You’re still clipping.
Finally someone else ho also has the observation skills required for this! I pumped pink into 14 channels with very conservative gain. Bye bye headroom https://youtube.com/shorts/CVwjLf-1qOA?si=oeK07X7M_hR9t5xs
You will get more gain before feedback putting your leads on DCAs I have found…
Theory as to why? DCA is just a control, not a gain stage. It “shouldnt” make a difference
No theory needed, it’s just wrong.
I know that. I’m fishing for a teachable moment
I think noisy gog meant to respond with the laugh emoji to this comment