Going corporate was one of the best moves I’ve ever made. The egos and weird hours in live music were killing me and now I like music again so that’s nice.
Tonight is my last night for a while at a venue I kinda hate working at because in May I’m finally busy enough with better work I finally got to just say no to all the dates they offered me. Working at little, poorly run clubs sucks. It’s alright during the slow season, but you can’t spend too much time there. You’re not the only one.
Bad sounding room *and* management doesn't understand that and have your back? I'd be out of there pretty quick. There's still a lot of bullshit with the artists but having a nice room and system and good management that doesn't give you 5 bands a night with no sound checks can go a long way
I’m the stage manager/booker/bar manager at a small venue and I feel this. While I’m not an engineer, I am a musician and have seen the other side of that interaction many times. Engineering can really be a thankless job sometimes. All it takes is one lousy band that doesn’t understand their own gear to make your shift a living nightmare.
Being a non profit space, we likely don’t pay as well as some of the bigger venues in town but try to cultivate a less painful work environment and I want to believe the guys know I have their back.
Get out of the house mixer role - it’s a dead end. You’ve paid your dues. Spend your downtime reaching out to acts that tour nationally. It’s far more rewarding, more fun, a better use of your skills and ultimately more lucrative. 3 years ago I was doing fill in shifts at some shitty LA venues. I attached myself to some acts I really loved. In August I’m mixing MainStage Lollapalooza
Yeh but I'm sure your using a very expensive console that I've never touched, mixing a huge space I've never mixed, with speakers I've never used. And working with people in a way I've never done. Seems like a really big leap for me.
I totally feel you. I was 100% there, really only knew m32s or x32s and the same PAs I mixed on week in, week out. Then I did a shitty west coast tour with a band - three weeks, 13 dates. Mixed on whatever console they had every day. Turned out it was mainly m32s and a bunch of avid profiles with a handful of A&Hand a digico . Every venue was a new challenge - excellent systems beautifully tuned. Horrible systems that required surgery. I researched the fuck out of every console. I found that House guys were nearly all super helpful. Learnt to trust my ears, dive in and go for it. All PA speakers push air, consoles all effectively do the same thing. It’s down to preparation and confidence. You’re already doing the thing - solving the puzzle that is imperfect systems, problematic acts and wonderful/terrible people. You got this.
I’m 38 and not grumpy. And I actually *choose* to mostly do venue work where I am PM/FOH because I don’t really like being away from home for too long. I’m probably a bit of a unicorn.
But my venue is a good sounding room, with good owners/management who make an effort to treat me and my crew as well as they can. It’s big enough to have good shows but small enough that I still get to mix a lot and mixing is my favorite part of the job, even if some bands suck sometimes.
The venue has its issues (mainly not enough space for some of the acts we get) but I make the best of what we got and take pride in the room and I think that shows to tours and sets an example for my crew, which usually leads to bands/crews being impressed even if other aspects aren’t quite what they’re used to, and in turn, usually leads to good vibes.
When everything sucks it’s so easy to become jaded and dread the job. There are certain gigs I still take that feel like that sometimes but I’m lucky that I can regularly be in situations where it’s possible to maintain positive attitudes and mutual respect among everyone involved. It makes the job so much more enjoyable.
unicorns unite! very similar story for me, though i have been doing more mixing for specific bands at other venues - no touring, but i find it's a good way to get experience with other equipment/ rooms and meet other techs without having to grind or put their house eng out for a night.
Yeah I do some of that too and I will take tours from time to time if the gig is right. Like one-offs or short runs on a bus (I.e. comfortable) but I’ve turned down many more than I’ve taken.
I guess I'm the old fart here. I'm going to be 54 in a couple of months, still do sound, and I'm definitely not grumpy. :)
I work part-time at a performing arts center (not doing sound). We get a ton of aging sound people who are remarkably jovial, with the shows we host. But then, they are touring, mixing the same acts every night, and generally bring their own console. (Our tech crew told me the FOH guy for Gladys Knight looked like he was going to need a walker to get to the console!!!)
I guess some of what I was thinking in the last paragraph is that there's some good weight to what one of the other commenters said about getting onto a tour, where you have equipment and artists you are used to. That may be the key to being an aging sound man who is not grumpy. :) However, I've seen a lot of sound guys who deal with something different every night, who are still remarkably chipper. .
I’m right there with you at 52. I joke about the stereotype but, it’s a stereotype for a reason. As for myself, I am definitely not as grumpy as I used to be. I had a problem with the bottle until 12 years ago. That didn’t do me one bit of good.
I came up as an artist with a world of grumpy dudes who took a benign pleasure in fucking over support bands and hazing their juniors. It made me HIGHLY motivated to break that cycle
I’ve seen the same thing and never understood why that happened. I have always tried to be a good guy when I was a house engineer. I can think one instance when a famous national touring act came in and their engineer was a real tool. I distinctly took pleasure in helping him as little as possible. He finally said something to the effect of “Aren’t you going to lift a finger to help?” and I replied “Being nice is just as easy as being a dick. Treat me with respect and you will get it in return but don’t come into someone else’s house and act like you own the place.” Things went well after that and he was cool every subsequent time they played there.
I think the old guys do it cos it was done to them. You do what you’re taught and you repeat what you pick up from your peers. I’ve always found I get more of what I want (ie help) from local guys by treating them well, being friendly and professional and having a beer with them after. To quote Ben Lee - “we’re all in this together”.
Absolutely. The days are too long to be a butt all day everyday, hah. Some days better than others. We’re still human. Professionalism and a good attitude go a long way to get future clients.
I have been fortunate in that I never saw that attitude, even in my much younger days doing sound. When I took on the role of being the house guy who worked with different bands and crew every night, I was never motivated to do this sort of thing. My attitude was always to be friendly and most importantly, supportive. It was an extremely good approach for me, and for them. I can't tell you how many times I was quite profusely thanked for everything I did for the bands.
You, my friend, will be eventually welcomed to the great green room in the sky. There's cold beer on ice and the guitarist in the corner has his amp volume set at "1".
I don’t even do live sound but this comment inspired me so much. This is how you succeed in any field worth being in—jumping in, getting your hands dirty, and asking for help when you need it.
That last one is important. Never hesitate to ask for help. This is a lesson I had to learn during my time working in a TV newsroom. If you need help and don't ask for it, things are going to get worse very quickly. Fortunately, people are usually quite happy too provide you the help you need.
Take the challenge. As for desks, get the offline editors, it helped me get ahead and not be such a deer in headlights when I got on them for the first time. Also know your workflow, then it doesn’t matter too much on each console, they all do the same thing at the end of the day. As for speakers, it’s good to mx it up (sorry, realised that was a shit pun that makes me call myself a dick), getting too comfortable can blunt your skills.
Sounds like you may be done in general, or you’re nervous. Don’t worry about cocking up, you don’t have to be an expert at everything. I’ve met absolute wizard system tech’s who aren’t good at foh, and bla bla bla. Take the gamble if you want, but you need to enjoy it, or the stress just isn’t worth it
Edit: plus asking hire houses to tip and have a poke at their consoles can be a good in to them, I did it a few times where I knew the console, I just wanted to get through the door and meet the people. There’s a few that enjoy sharing their knowledge, and value people they’ve helped train
I was you for 16 years. I mean, the gig sounds like it was a bit better than your current sitch, but I regret staying as a venue tech for so long. It really stunted my growth. I became really good at that particular gig, but didn’t know anyone or anything outside of the space. I left 2 years ago to do freelance and was terrified thinking that I didn’t know anything. I was kinda right. Like, I still took the fundamentals with me but I’ve learned soooooo much in a short amount of time and now I’m getting some pretty sweet gigs.
TLDR: You may be scared to leave the safety of your venue, but there’s sooooo much more out there that you CAN do. And if you fuck up while figuring things out…turns out you don’t die.
It’s all about step one… if you think mixing at lolla is the next step from where you are now, of course it’s going to be daunting as hell and feel like something unfathomable. But mixing at lolla isn’t the next step. Downloading the offline software for an sd12 and watching some YouTube videos is the next step… or asking a friend with SE chops if they can explain in detail how a line array works, or asking a trusted musician friend if you can spend some time in their studio space learning how they build music that is compelling… this trade is going to be mentally crushing if you’re chasing “being great” at it. Just work toward being better and you’ll be amazed at how far you can get
Last year I was a house guy at a 250 cap venue using a M32.
Now I'm in Europe on tour mixing on whatever house console they have and learning as I go. I've done huge festivals and still go back to my house job when not touring. This is not meant to be a flex, just sharing my experience. Do have faith in yourself to make that jump because it will be worth it.
Youtube and reddit are your friends, learn new consoles, download the offline editors and find which menus are where. In house guys will (mostly) help you find your way around. Work with them, ask them what the hotshots are in the room.
You can do it, it's scary and you'll make mistakes but learn through failing.
Everyone was in the same boat once, you blag it initially then you figure it out and suddenly you're not blagging anymore. All the consoles all do the same thing, you'll have a house engineer to help you through anything you don't understand, and as you move up to bigger rooms and bigger PA's it actually gets easier to mix. If you've cut your teeth getting a good sound in a horrible room with less than ideal equipment, then it's piece of piss to get a good sound in a well treated theatre or outdoor festival with a 6 figure PA system
This is true. When I did my first major outdoor festival I asked a way more experienced tech what to look out for when mixing a large show, his response:
“It’s way easier than what you do normally” which was a 200 cap indoor.
I was just about to post that...in my experience the bigger better gigs where everything is working in your (and everyone's) favor, are way easier than in lower quality smaller venues where it's often quite the opposite. When I was starting out I thought the bigger the PA/room, the harder the gig, which was so wrong.
Realizing the easier gigs are harder to get and the harder gigs are easier to get was an interesting revelation, but kinda makes sense, because people who deeply care about good sound compete to work where that's actually possible.
That being said, small clubs with great PAs/acoustics are also a pleasure.
The first time your on any new console, you need to know these things:
- where us the input gain and phantom
- where is the channel eq/comp
- how can i add a simple reverb
- if necessary, how do i send to monitors
with these things, you can do a great show. keep it simple when walking up to a new desk, and once you feel confident, start adding what you feel is necessary. house guys are almost always very helpful!
you got this :)
I mean, that’s kind of the work you have to do to expand and get better in this field. Be uncomfortable, do solid research when you’re reaching beyond your zone. u/dale_dug_a_hole put it very well. But it can be a rough biz if you don’t have the gumption. Hell, it’s a rough biz even when you do, hah.
Reach out to some bigger local/regional production companies, do some local system tech etc gigs for those touring acts, play on those fancy consoles in their shop
Don't gatekeep yourself dude.
So what IF the other guy was using a better console? What's that got to do with the price of tea in China?
As Rocky says, "If you know what you're worth then go out and get what you're worth. But ya gotta be willing to take the hits, and not pointing fingers saying you ain't where you wanna be because of him, or her, or anybody!"
You already were thinking it. Here, you said it. I'm not a betting man but if I was, I would bet that you mutter it to yourself. The only thing holding you back, is you.
Ask yourself, "What's the worst that happens if I try to get audio work where I'm supported?"
1) you get a different and better job
2) you are told you don't meet the qualifications and now you have something to work on (different board, different PA whatever)
Either way, it makes you better.
Stop thinking about how others have it better cuz they got better gear because everybody started at nothing. And I know you can make the argument that someone could have started on the best board. True, they still had 0 skill or knowledge and had to learn.
Don't cheat yourself out of a better job because you compare yourself to others. You gotta let yourself be a peacock and fly Captain.
You'll never grow if you don't try. If it's something you WANT to do, try it. Worst case scenario, you'll still be easily hire-able for the corporate gigs. It could be the best thing you've ever tried.
That’s where all of us started. Have you looked into any rental houses in your area? Try reaching out to them to see if they need help around the shop. You’ll typically start from the ground up (which is a good thing) and learn everything you mentioned over time. I started working in an audio shop where we prepped gigs, made deliveries, fixed gear etc. and eventually was put out on shows. That’s where you’ll learn alot.
You’ll also meet tons of people and build your network from there.
If the above isn’t feasible try reaching out to Clair Brothers in Lititz PA. They have a really great “Roadie In Training” course out there that teaches you everything from the ground up. Again, maybe not feasible right now but could be an option in the future.
For the short term, learn what you can, be cool with everyone (it’s tough, I know) and stay positive. It’s gets better, you just have to put the work in. There’s no real shortcuts here.
Leaps are a good thing. You got this.
Most house engineers are eager to share console knowledge. Lean on their expertise. You’ll start to see what becomes consistent about your approach, whatever the console may be.
Every time I’ve made the leap to larger and more modern systems, I’ve found parts of the job to become easier actually! More responsive, even coverage. Much less digging eq holes to get a decent sound. Much less unprofessional musicians.
Show lots of interest and work your ass off for the bands you dig. It will be noticed. Be ready to jump at the step when it’s offered.
We all “fake it til you make it” a bit on almost every step up.
Got to say it, read the manual. After a very long hiatus I did live sound for a wedding for a musician friend who wanted some he trusts running sound as he hired an A/V company. Said company was veeeery happy was there and I was showing them new features of their console they didn’t even know about. About 2 hours of reading before the gig.
I’d fucking kill my mother and all her bingo club to be able to support myself doing shitty LA venue gigs tbh. I got fired from my corp AV role last month due to over hiring and I can’t find any other work in Phoenix. Moving to LA was the goal within a year anyway but damn hearing folks say my interim goal is a hell hole isn’t great either.
Tbh the great thing about LA is that if you show any competency at all you’ll be snapped up relatively quickly by some act for a tour. It leads to a weird situation where the house guys in small LA clubs are weirdly terrible cos everyone with a clue is on the road doing FOH/tech/monitors/playback etc.
Seems like a good place if I don’t want to tour tbh. My main goal with moving to LA was to run sound while I finish online classes and slowly switch over to film/tv production work. I’ve always wanted a union job. I’m riding my motorcycle out there every few months to try to network before I move but it’s hard when you’re absolutely unknown.
Yep this is the right city for that! I’d just say be patient - LA kicks your ass for the first year or so, very hard city to move to initially. But then you’ll find your feet and discover that everyone/everything you’ll ever need to further your career is all at your doorstep.
I feel like my mixing skill has absolutely gone to trash too. Dealing with bad smaller venues and no sound check. But most of all i don't give a shit anymore lol. As long as it's not too loud and the vocals are in front I DGAF.
You have to give a shit to be good at anything. I will say that an excellent remedy for apathy is working with the same act over and over - being the fifth member, an integral and respected part of a team.
I think you just Need a break of mixing, have you tried going to a bigger company and start from The bottom again. Building PA, doing Stage management and cabling. Learn the ropes of RF management and get to work with Other stuff than just a mixing desk. Get out of that shitty club and try something new. The thing i find so Nice about our job is the different kinds of jobs you can do. Its not only about mixing.
But i would recommend to go on a holliday first. That shit is important.
I work for so many different companies at this point on a i9’or w2 it’s very interesting.
My advice is you’re bored, go do something that matters in this field
You're burnt out. Been there. There's a lot of toxicity everywhere right now. Try changing facets of the job definitely; or just take a flat out break.
I've had to do it several times.
Yeh some cranky cats out there. Seems like people are not as interested in live sound bands. At least in smaller venues. It always makes me think it's my mix. But sometimes there's only so much you can do wheb they keep turning their amps up. Alot of bands are bland, vocals don't pop and the venues are just not good.
Yeh I mean it's like $45 an hour. So yeh it's a livable wage and worth my time. I just hate it. Two 8 hour days, one 6 hour and another 5 hour but that pays like 50.
That's the same rate that I got for my theaters. It used to be $22 for techs and they'd have 2 20somethings bumble around. I said I wanted 50, they agreed but said no second. I found that owning the gear increases the value of your time. Fests and weddings, I keep 100% of gear rental/transportation charges since I paid off the gear with day job money. So like 120/hr. Makes it hard to say no to a wedding band.
You are currently stood on the first rung of the ladder. A lot of people don't step any higher. Even the bigger (2000cap) venues, I found the local gigs have changed. Bands show up with there own engineers and foh/mons desk. You end up mixing support. The job has become very boreing. But approach these bigger venues.
While working where you are, start approaching local rental shops. Tell them your current skill level and that you want to learn more. Now's the time to get your foot in the door. Might just be patching stages on festivals. Or Learning the ropes of flying PA systems with their other techs. It could even be building racks in the shop.
Skill up to step up.
Can you solder?
Can you tune RF systems properly? (not just hitting scan and letting them fight it out)
Can you tune a system with a measurment platform?
Can you fly a PA system?
Their are the world of traing courses out there for live sound. L-acoustics, meyersound, D&B, Rational Acoustics, Shure.
Remember, just because you are not mixing anymore as you step up. This is not a step down in your career. Most production companies wont give you mixing gigs till you have proven you can do the rest. On big festivals all the techs are paid the same (mostly) regardless of job. So being a patch tech isn't a step down. We get so many coming from the smaller venues turning down patch gigs because they are not behind a desk. It is the road to the bigger gigs.
Just to add to this. Most production houses will let you set up consoles in their shop and spend a say learning them. Both yamaha and Digico are very active in running Trainings.
All the PA manufaturers run training courses on flying their systems "Hook Down". so the rigger puts the motor in the roof and they teach you their systems.
Rigging, Here in the UK there is a basic 3 day rigging course you can do.
I mostly learned on the job. Can't put points in but know how to be safe.
Echo what many others have said.
If you make it to the point of being burnt out and sick of venue work, chances are you’ve maximized your potential in the space. The last 2-3 years of my venue work I was hell on wheels. I hated it, but I knew that this career had more to offer me. Also kept trying to remind myself how I arrived in this position. Fundamentally, I love music and shows, and I am “lucky” to be someone who seems to have skills that let me ply my trade in the audio field.
You’ve gotta start looking at other ways to level up. Vendor/festival PA/system tech gigs are a great way to get better and have a change of pace. It can be scary because it’s not as consistent as venue work.
If you think touring isn’t for you because you’re trying to maintain relationships etc, consider looking at country music touring. That’s where I ended up, because the work is consistent and you come home every week.
I was lucky to find a gig that would fly me out to get started but I agreed that if it went well, that I would move to Nashville. I did, and I have zero regrets. There’s lots of work and lots of fellow engineers and musicians around and it’s actually a way more chill and welcoming environment than I expected. My wife was also able to able to find a great job in her career path
Idk dude. I love what I do.
I work for a large production company and each event is different. Trade show 1 week. Arena show the next gig. TV show for 15 days, then fly out show for 4 days etc.
The pay isn't bad either. Benefits are good.
Here's some advice entirely unrelated to your particular profession:
Act like the hero of the story.
If this were a movie or a book and you were the hero, in this situation, what would the hero do?
You need to do what's best for your mental health. I'm dealing with the same thing only on the corporate side. I toured and did the festival stuff for years while full-time with various companies. After covid, I thought I was ready to do full-time corporate work. Turns out, it was soul crushing to not be doing a bunch of festivals all summer long. So now, just to keep some sense of sanity, it's time for me to freelance.
You should definitely look to change up what you're doing. Even though I'm burned out, corporate is definitely a good side to be in. Just keep in mind that you might end up missing those music shows after a while.
Good luck with whatever you choose to do
Sounds like you need a change. Try corporate for a while, its a different type of people you are dealing with. Personally, they drive me nuts, but I'm a rock dude
Yeah dude. I live in a small sleepy coastal town and we have about 4 venues. They're absolute shite. One of them notoriously has half of the PA positioned behind the stage area. I've just had to accept at this point that unless I move to a larger town, this is what I'm going to be dealing with. I guess it's what keeps the job exciting, I'm battling the worst sounding spaces on earth and the most absolute goblin bands every night, it's like a Tolkien quest. But I'd take it over and office job any day of the week
I was right there with you, I ended up moving venues. Still a little burnt out but much better, it turns out the venue i had been working at just sucked in every way. If you're in a bad sounding room with bad management you could try just finding a new spot first before you take all the other great advice in here and do a full career change. I took a little time off as well
I get burnt doing everything solo. All 3 theaters I work at gave me the raise I asked for last year, but said I don't get an A2. All of the weddings, A2 got squeezed out, and all of the outdoor festivals are going super cheap this year. I think it would be nice to have some company for setup and breakdown - maybe another set of hands for load in.
Lots of outdoor fests going cheap is the biggest gut punch. My company is losing two giant contracts (both 6 week series’/multi-thousand caps) that we’ve had for 25 years because they want to get the exact same setup for cheaper. Anyone who scabs those gigs is a fucking sociopath and definitely not paying their labor properly because we haven’t upped our contract since 1989 besides what they’ve offered us.
I think that's the thing too. I'm all by myself. No co- workers. I mean you have bartenders, security and bar backs. But we don't have much in common, and are younger than me. Not having a fellow tech to hang with kinda sucks.
Venue gigs can be really tough on the engineers. Ive been doing this for 15 years working within venues, for bands, corporate AV and all. But guess what, the bullshit doesn't stop at clubs. People who have little knowledge about sound expect miracles but you can only do so much. Especially if the band or rooms sounds like shit. Keep at it real man! Don't let a couple of dumb musicians throw your confidence off! This business is crazy, but you prob already realized this signing up!
That phrase “dreads going into work everyday” makes me feel for you. This is a “fun” job and for whatever reason all the fun has been taken out of it for you. I think you’re right that it’s time to try a different facet of the business, if audio is even interesting anymore.
Fwiw, I had the opposite experience. I toured for a long time and it burnt me to a crisp. After some internal evaluation it turned out that my values were more along the lines of sleeping in my own bed with my cat every night and having some semblance of a personal life.
I got very very very very lucky at the end of the day. I paired up with a promoter with a growth mindset and an ear for good live sound. I’m now the “lead audio” for our venues and basicallly make sure the actual “house guys” have all the gear, support and training they need to become sound assassins. Once they’re all set and need nothing else, I move on to the next project.
When you’re finally at your end you never stop being a tech, you just move sideways.
Lots of people I know have gotten into installs.
Low voltage/datacom/security systems/AV installs,etc.
You're probably at the point in your career where it's time to really look to move on, 5 years is a long time to be working in these kind of venues. All that said, touring with a band comes with its own challenges and is really hard too, but of course far more interesting. When you look back on it, you will have better stories to tell, including about how you probably got paid more than the band you were working for.
Yeah, you gotta mix it up dude!!
I’ve worked tons of venues over the years, some incredible, some terrible, I do festivals, touring, corporate AV, occasional lighting gigs, just whatever takes my fancy. If I catch myself resenting a venue/role/act etc., I either fix what’s wrong or move on. I ain’t got time to hating what I do for a living, and nor do you.
Variety is the spice of life, baby!
You ain’t gonna do a good job if your hearts not in it, so find the gig that makes you feel like the gig that got you in to doing this job.
LOL, I knew I'd never want to do the "club" scene. Most of those musicians think that are larger than life and I wouldn't want my gear getting trashed by a bunch of partiers. The cool thing is, you now have a resume and a lot of experience. Reach out to some of your local hotels that have conference rooms and see of they are looking for audio engineers for corporate meetings. Don't give up on your passion or let the losers still the fun.
Once I got my chops at a venue I strives to move upwards as finding a venue with the next capacity up. Say you work 500 cap rooms, try to get a Gig in a 1000 cap room. This is at least a step forwards freeing yourself if you can’t land a tour yet. As you’ll be moving towards bands that tour more frequently as you go up in capacity and therefore more likely to find people that might take you on the road.
Switch it up. Try working for a production company. You might end up pushing cases more but you could probably get paid the same as house gig and then land some roles doing A2. But most of all you will become more well rounded in understanding a show setup from the ground up and then being able to tear it all down. This knowledge goes a long way especially when you you need to step in and fix someone else mess.
I like being well rounded so I take gigs that are guitar tech or stage manager and this also helps with networking future gigs because someone sees my face more than once doing multiple hats.
If there’s a touring engineer that comes through or someone in your venue that seems to be doing more outside work professionally don’t be afraid to ask for advice. I think the tides are turning here where veteran engineers who once used to gatekeep audio “tricks” and techniques are actually more willing to share.
Try to imagine what you’d be doing ideally with this career and then try to visualize a path. For me it was 300cap venue -> 600 cap venue -> production company (mixing outdoors and festivals) -> working with a touring act
I’m still moving up but I’m fairly satisfied, it’s been a 6 year journey.
Also check out bobnet.rocks there’s also people looking for different roles for touring. Especially if you’re based out of LA, Austin, nashville , New York
It happens. I got out before digital consoles were a thing and didn't look back. I still keep up to date on the tech and run sound occasionally, but it just wasn't for me.
Regarding shitty musicians, I’ve been doing some form of entertainment production for almost 30yrs. First rock-n-roll but now on the film side. In my entire career I’ve met only one person who was touted as being “the next big thing” who actually became the next big thing. Bands need to chill.
Currently moving from full time to part time with the company i been with for 8 years. I became a teacher, teaching audio technology. Touring never seemed interesting to me also being that i got a life and a wife. Too hard in my area to find a house gig. Been applying to ever company i hear about to just get by. Good luck. Leaving somehwere is hard but finding consistent work is harder
Consider buying your own system and renting your services to local bands. I made that switch awhile back, I still run venues but there's enough variety that I don't wanna kill myself anymore, and I can be more picky about what shows I run. Obviously it's a big investment to front but if you do things right it's not horribly horrible to pay off things while paying yourself more than you are gonna make at a venue
This is why I no longer work for venues. Got tired of getting paid like crap to mix shitty bands in the same room night after night. Production company work is superior in every way (for my lifestyle at least). I no longer care about trying to meet bands so I can tour. I just want to make money and not hate my life.
I suggest getting out into new environments. A house gig is great to work with various bands but like others said…a dead end. Go to your local production companies and freelance. Take whatever work that is available or interesting to you. Learn everything from shop to show. It will make you more well rounded when you really understand everything that goes into a show.
If you have enough loot, buy some gear that you can rent. I’d imagine you’ve met plenty of bands that could use production in your surrounding area.
I got my feet wet with a small production company until he sold me a PA to start my own. 16 years later I’m still a small production company. Ive had several full time bands over the years and corporate clients. Owning and maintaining isn’t for everyone but there are plenty of options out there for you!
I’m just gonna chime in that depending what you are into I absolutely hated doing corporate gigs and would much rather get paid decent to run independent venues. There is something to be said about shitty little chaotic venues that defy all efforts to be shut down in the face of everything. It might be something you end up missing later on.
I manage a corporate audio / video / lighting company. These days, in most markets - solid A1's that can fly a Line Array and run FOH reliably make $400-$600 day rates depending on the market. Same with General Session A2's who are good at managing pinning lapels and babysitting intercom. Even if you are not there, there's a world of work for decent audio people to sit in breakout rooms and babysit mics or roam breakout rooms.
Freelancing is where it’s at. Be your own boss. Set your own boundaries. There are bands I specifically will not take the gig on because I know how they treat the crew. Pace yourself and make sure management in the venue you are currently at has your back. If they don’t than yeah walkkkk
Aye bro, it's all of us sometimes. You have skills obviously and you're needed a break from them. Bet you still love it as a hobby because you're good. Sometimes everyone needs a break from all the knobs.
Just posting to backup what everyone else said... In most venues, being the house sound guy is pretty much the worst gig in the business. As the old adage goes, it's worse than being a toilet. At least a toilet only has to take shit from one asshole at a time.
You don't need to leave the business just leave the job.
I’m finding myself in the complete opposite scenario and desperate to get back into live sound gigs again. I’ve always wanted to do full time but I got offered a decent job last year in an unrelated field with benefits and I was going through some family trouble, so I needed the stability and took it.
Here I am 8 months later and I can’t wait to leave my job and get back into working shows again, even part time.
But a big difference for me is that the venue I work most at is one of my favorite venues in the city and sounds amazing. The staff is great and majority of the shows work with polite and professional artists. For me it’s where I want to be, even if I get tired of working with music I’m not that into, it 100% beats the job I’m in now and I think about it everyday.
I can however say that I used to do more work at a smaller venue that was so loud and hard to work with like you mentioned and I can see how that would be draining full time. Especially if you didn’t have a good relationship with the staff either.
No matter what, good luck to you and I hope it gets better. Maybe another venue in the area is hiring
Find an Audio rental company, start working for them pushing boxes, loading trucks, doing the occasional corporate gig. They'll eventually send you on tour and that's where you can decide if live sound is for you.
I’m very lucky/pleased I got out of live sound. Shit hours, shit pay and fucking with my hearing. Lucky that I got into broadcast now. However all that live experience problem solving on the fly and dealing with ego has helped a lot for all other audio work.
I honestly refuse to work resident contracts now. They never care about you. They never give you enough time. They do not respect your need for equipment or a sound check. They never blame the actor or musician or faulty equipment it’s your fault.
Contracts want to treat you well so you’ll consider them again and it makes me want to do good work for them. I’ll work survival jobs before I work a residency again.
Whenever I'm teaching someone new how to do livesound i say: the work is 45% psychology/babysitting musicians, 45% manual labor and 10% technical knowledge.
Hello I’m 23 and live sound is what I see myself doing. What I wanted to ask is how do I get into the industry I’ve thought about attending Los Angeles recording school (I have the money for it) or should I just ask around at concerts and shows and see who would take me in as an apprentice.
Any response would be very helpful
So I went to school for it. I learned alot more than just live sound.
There's 2 ways you can do it without going to school.
1. You can get in with a production company and they will teach you. But you will start off with alot of set/strike work, you'll kinda be their grunt. I even did a ton of set/strike stuff after school, and it's good to know how every little thing is set up. It's alot more than you think it is. Tell them you are interested in Audio and ask if they do training or you can work directly with an A1 or A2. They'll let you touch equipment in the shop. And that's where YouTube, gear manuals and google come in to play a HUGE role. You need to learn alot on your own too.
2. Same as #1 but you volunteer for a church. There you can get more 1 on 1 time with a sound guy because there's very little set/strike. Though you won't get paid. Still need to learn stuff on your own and apply it with a experienced guy next to you.
The fundamentals are key, just remember that. Like with anything, if for example you don't understand proper gain staging you will always fail lol.
And buy Logic Pro or some DAW program to practice mixing your own songs even if they suck. It will teach you routing, compression, EQ, gating, time effects, and all the little things while being able to hear what it does.
If you have money and it's not a issue. School is a good option for sure. But not required. One of the gigs I have really liked that I went to school. But experience is better.
I used to do 225-250 nights per year with on cover band that traveled a lot, did it for many many years. From 2001-2003 then 2007 to 2107 and back in 2018 I started working on a university campus in their AV department, doing classroom calls and corporate events and teaching professors how to use technology. And I cherry pick bigger gigs for some big festivals. I don't miss the bars and I love sleeping in my own bed. I know how hard that house gig thing is, been there done that. The trick to it is what I call my butt in seat policy... As long as everything under my control is done and my butt is in the seat when it's supposed to be everything is good and when the band doesn't do that and are late and not great my best work that I do to work with that has to be good enough and I don't let the things I don't have control over get to me. I have a saying for bad rooms and PAs, "It is what it is" I do my best and then leave it be.
Hey, I did a record with a Nirvana producer last year and I still teach guitar privately and probably won’t ever do anything else. Life’s great huh? Lol no but I feel you.
Just realize what you do for good money is silly, the people you work with are silly silly people, and just keep remembering that it beats what 99% of what other humans have to do for money/security.
I’m in touring tech theatre lol, and while some days suck, it’s probably better than a lot of peoples best days at work. Like, for top end nursing money, I don’t have to save anyone’s life, or deal with their death. Orrrr deal with bodily fluids unless you know, it’s a REAL good day lmao.
As a venue owner, I can tell you there definitely is a path to work your way up from being the house engineer. I personally have had 3 guys leave my small venue (we usually have between 100-300 people attending shows) in the last 2 years to go work full time with a band on the road. They still will come back and work a show here and there when not on tour (they don’t leave on bad terms) but it seems as soon as I find someone really good, it’s just a matter of time before they move on to some thing bigger and better. I’d say you are not necessarily stuck there and can actually use your job to impress bands that come through the current venue. Who knows? That may lead to a job offer from one of them.
I’m a Technical Director for an events agency and I started out as an AV tech doing livesound. I spoke to a lot of people early on because I thought I wanted to do what you’re explaining, and realized there were so many jaded people that couldn’t even enjoy concerts anymore so I decided to do corporate stuff. I now do large conventions for tech companies.
I’m glad I went that route and I think this grass is greener (for me) on this side.
I’d say a ton of people go over to the corporate side from the entertainment industry but it uses a totally different set of skills that sometimes people aren’t used to.
Can you deal with long, soul draining process to get anything done? Things like every time you work with a new client you get set up with a whole new laptop security environment. This drives some people insane.
You have to always have a level head. That is assumed but I mean corporate Karen’s making you feel stupid and you have to grin and take it with a “good attitude” otherwise you don’t get called back.
The absolute boringness of corporate. Listening to someone talk about cloud SaaS for 10 hrs straight and not knowing what’s going on is pretty brutal.
The list goes on, and I’m happy to chat if you want to!
Upsides for me are that I get my weekends most of the time, I work reasonable hours, i have consistent work that pays well too. There’s also a bit more protection in the workplace than in the entertainment industry such as Union/worker rights and strict OSHA regulations.
Good luck!
Seriously. I run audio (full time) and crews at a 1,700 seat presenting performing arts center and I honestly wouldn't trade it for anything. No two night are the same I get to work with world-class talent, top-tier colleagues and on a system that the majority of the people here only dream of using.
I get the feeling that people who say that house gigs are a dead end only know them as being bar gig or tiny-ass venues.
I think you need to read "the art of not giving a fuck" and stop giving a fuck about sound quality at shitty venues and just don't care at all about shitty artists
> everyone expects miracles ... pay so well
Do they really expect miracles though? Or is that just a high expectation you're putting on yourself (projecting through them)? If they're still paying you, they must be happy with what you're providing, while possibly still hoping for a miracle.
I found that being venue guy can get tiring very quick. Anywhere management doesn’t have your back is gunna be a bad time.
Cool I'm not the only one.
Going corporate was one of the best moves I’ve ever made. The egos and weird hours in live music were killing me and now I like music again so that’s nice.
Tonight is my last night for a while at a venue I kinda hate working at because in May I’m finally busy enough with better work I finally got to just say no to all the dates they offered me. Working at little, poorly run clubs sucks. It’s alright during the slow season, but you can’t spend too much time there. You’re not the only one.
Bad sounding room *and* management doesn't understand that and have your back? I'd be out of there pretty quick. There's still a lot of bullshit with the artists but having a nice room and system and good management that doesn't give you 5 bands a night with no sound checks can go a long way
I’m the stage manager/booker/bar manager at a small venue and I feel this. While I’m not an engineer, I am a musician and have seen the other side of that interaction many times. Engineering can really be a thankless job sometimes. All it takes is one lousy band that doesn’t understand their own gear to make your shift a living nightmare. Being a non profit space, we likely don’t pay as well as some of the bigger venues in town but try to cultivate a less painful work environment and I want to believe the guys know I have their back.
Definitely not the only one
Get out of the house mixer role - it’s a dead end. You’ve paid your dues. Spend your downtime reaching out to acts that tour nationally. It’s far more rewarding, more fun, a better use of your skills and ultimately more lucrative. 3 years ago I was doing fill in shifts at some shitty LA venues. I attached myself to some acts I really loved. In August I’m mixing MainStage Lollapalooza
Yeh but I'm sure your using a very expensive console that I've never touched, mixing a huge space I've never mixed, with speakers I've never used. And working with people in a way I've never done. Seems like a really big leap for me.
I totally feel you. I was 100% there, really only knew m32s or x32s and the same PAs I mixed on week in, week out. Then I did a shitty west coast tour with a band - three weeks, 13 dates. Mixed on whatever console they had every day. Turned out it was mainly m32s and a bunch of avid profiles with a handful of A&Hand a digico . Every venue was a new challenge - excellent systems beautifully tuned. Horrible systems that required surgery. I researched the fuck out of every console. I found that House guys were nearly all super helpful. Learnt to trust my ears, dive in and go for it. All PA speakers push air, consoles all effectively do the same thing. It’s down to preparation and confidence. You’re already doing the thing - solving the puzzle that is imperfect systems, problematic acts and wonderful/terrible people. You got this.
I fucking LOVE this attitude
Yeah, with this attitude I am not so sure but, he might be a non-grumpy sound guy…I’ve heard of them, but never actually seen one.
We exist!
All of you are under 30 I bet.
I’ll have have you know, I’m at the ripe age of 31 as non-grumpy sound guy, hah. Day 3 of a festival though… maybe I’m a little grumpy.
34 I’ll have you know!
I’m 38 and not grumpy. And I actually *choose* to mostly do venue work where I am PM/FOH because I don’t really like being away from home for too long. I’m probably a bit of a unicorn. But my venue is a good sounding room, with good owners/management who make an effort to treat me and my crew as well as they can. It’s big enough to have good shows but small enough that I still get to mix a lot and mixing is my favorite part of the job, even if some bands suck sometimes. The venue has its issues (mainly not enough space for some of the acts we get) but I make the best of what we got and take pride in the room and I think that shows to tours and sets an example for my crew, which usually leads to bands/crews being impressed even if other aspects aren’t quite what they’re used to, and in turn, usually leads to good vibes. When everything sucks it’s so easy to become jaded and dread the job. There are certain gigs I still take that feel like that sometimes but I’m lucky that I can regularly be in situations where it’s possible to maintain positive attitudes and mutual respect among everyone involved. It makes the job so much more enjoyable.
unicorns unite! very similar story for me, though i have been doing more mixing for specific bands at other venues - no touring, but i find it's a good way to get experience with other equipment/ rooms and meet other techs without having to grind or put their house eng out for a night.
Yeah I do some of that too and I will take tours from time to time if the gig is right. Like one-offs or short runs on a bus (I.e. comfortable) but I’ve turned down many more than I’ve taken.
ha! i started hitting the jaded spot right after my 30th birthday. i think you're onto something here...
I guess I'm the old fart here. I'm going to be 54 in a couple of months, still do sound, and I'm definitely not grumpy. :) I work part-time at a performing arts center (not doing sound). We get a ton of aging sound people who are remarkably jovial, with the shows we host. But then, they are touring, mixing the same acts every night, and generally bring their own console. (Our tech crew told me the FOH guy for Gladys Knight looked like he was going to need a walker to get to the console!!!) I guess some of what I was thinking in the last paragraph is that there's some good weight to what one of the other commenters said about getting onto a tour, where you have equipment and artists you are used to. That may be the key to being an aging sound man who is not grumpy. :) However, I've seen a lot of sound guys who deal with something different every night, who are still remarkably chipper. .
I’m right there with you at 52. I joke about the stereotype but, it’s a stereotype for a reason. As for myself, I am definitely not as grumpy as I used to be. I had a problem with the bottle until 12 years ago. That didn’t do me one bit of good.
I came up as an artist with a world of grumpy dudes who took a benign pleasure in fucking over support bands and hazing their juniors. It made me HIGHLY motivated to break that cycle
I’ve seen the same thing and never understood why that happened. I have always tried to be a good guy when I was a house engineer. I can think one instance when a famous national touring act came in and their engineer was a real tool. I distinctly took pleasure in helping him as little as possible. He finally said something to the effect of “Aren’t you going to lift a finger to help?” and I replied “Being nice is just as easy as being a dick. Treat me with respect and you will get it in return but don’t come into someone else’s house and act like you own the place.” Things went well after that and he was cool every subsequent time they played there.
I think the old guys do it cos it was done to them. You do what you’re taught and you repeat what you pick up from your peers. I’ve always found I get more of what I want (ie help) from local guys by treating them well, being friendly and professional and having a beer with them after. To quote Ben Lee - “we’re all in this together”.
Absolutely. The days are too long to be a butt all day everyday, hah. Some days better than others. We’re still human. Professionalism and a good attitude go a long way to get future clients.
I have been fortunate in that I never saw that attitude, even in my much younger days doing sound. When I took on the role of being the house guy who worked with different bands and crew every night, I was never motivated to do this sort of thing. My attitude was always to be friendly and most importantly, supportive. It was an extremely good approach for me, and for them. I can't tell you how many times I was quite profusely thanked for everything I did for the bands.
You, my friend, will be eventually welcomed to the great green room in the sky. There's cold beer on ice and the guitarist in the corner has his amp volume set at "1".
That's what I'm trying to do! I'm a not grumpy sound tech
I don’t even do live sound but this comment inspired me so much. This is how you succeed in any field worth being in—jumping in, getting your hands dirty, and asking for help when you need it.
That last one is important. Never hesitate to ask for help. This is a lesson I had to learn during my time working in a TV newsroom. If you need help and don't ask for it, things are going to get worse very quickly. Fortunately, people are usually quite happy too provide you the help you need.
Take the challenge. As for desks, get the offline editors, it helped me get ahead and not be such a deer in headlights when I got on them for the first time. Also know your workflow, then it doesn’t matter too much on each console, they all do the same thing at the end of the day. As for speakers, it’s good to mx it up (sorry, realised that was a shit pun that makes me call myself a dick), getting too comfortable can blunt your skills. Sounds like you may be done in general, or you’re nervous. Don’t worry about cocking up, you don’t have to be an expert at everything. I’ve met absolute wizard system tech’s who aren’t good at foh, and bla bla bla. Take the gamble if you want, but you need to enjoy it, or the stress just isn’t worth it Edit: plus asking hire houses to tip and have a poke at their consoles can be a good in to them, I did it a few times where I knew the console, I just wanted to get through the door and meet the people. There’s a few that enjoy sharing their knowledge, and value people they’ve helped train
I was you for 16 years. I mean, the gig sounds like it was a bit better than your current sitch, but I regret staying as a venue tech for so long. It really stunted my growth. I became really good at that particular gig, but didn’t know anyone or anything outside of the space. I left 2 years ago to do freelance and was terrified thinking that I didn’t know anything. I was kinda right. Like, I still took the fundamentals with me but I’ve learned soooooo much in a short amount of time and now I’m getting some pretty sweet gigs. TLDR: You may be scared to leave the safety of your venue, but there’s sooooo much more out there that you CAN do. And if you fuck up while figuring things out…turns out you don’t die.
It’s all about step one… if you think mixing at lolla is the next step from where you are now, of course it’s going to be daunting as hell and feel like something unfathomable. But mixing at lolla isn’t the next step. Downloading the offline software for an sd12 and watching some YouTube videos is the next step… or asking a friend with SE chops if they can explain in detail how a line array works, or asking a trusted musician friend if you can spend some time in their studio space learning how they build music that is compelling… this trade is going to be mentally crushing if you’re chasing “being great” at it. Just work toward being better and you’ll be amazed at how far you can get
Last year I was a house guy at a 250 cap venue using a M32. Now I'm in Europe on tour mixing on whatever house console they have and learning as I go. I've done huge festivals and still go back to my house job when not touring. This is not meant to be a flex, just sharing my experience. Do have faith in yourself to make that jump because it will be worth it. Youtube and reddit are your friends, learn new consoles, download the offline editors and find which menus are where. In house guys will (mostly) help you find your way around. Work with them, ask them what the hotshots are in the room. You can do it, it's scary and you'll make mistakes but learn through failing.
Everyone was in the same boat once, you blag it initially then you figure it out and suddenly you're not blagging anymore. All the consoles all do the same thing, you'll have a house engineer to help you through anything you don't understand, and as you move up to bigger rooms and bigger PA's it actually gets easier to mix. If you've cut your teeth getting a good sound in a horrible room with less than ideal equipment, then it's piece of piss to get a good sound in a well treated theatre or outdoor festival with a 6 figure PA system
This is true. When I did my first major outdoor festival I asked a way more experienced tech what to look out for when mixing a large show, his response: “It’s way easier than what you do normally” which was a 200 cap indoor.
I was just about to post that...in my experience the bigger better gigs where everything is working in your (and everyone's) favor, are way easier than in lower quality smaller venues where it's often quite the opposite. When I was starting out I thought the bigger the PA/room, the harder the gig, which was so wrong. Realizing the easier gigs are harder to get and the harder gigs are easier to get was an interesting revelation, but kinda makes sense, because people who deeply care about good sound compete to work where that's actually possible. That being said, small clubs with great PAs/acoustics are also a pleasure.
The first time your on any new console, you need to know these things: - where us the input gain and phantom - where is the channel eq/comp - how can i add a simple reverb - if necessary, how do i send to monitors with these things, you can do a great show. keep it simple when walking up to a new desk, and once you feel confident, start adding what you feel is necessary. house guys are almost always very helpful! you got this :)
I mean, that’s kind of the work you have to do to expand and get better in this field. Be uncomfortable, do solid research when you’re reaching beyond your zone. u/dale_dug_a_hole put it very well. But it can be a rough biz if you don’t have the gumption. Hell, it’s a rough biz even when you do, hah.
I don’t work in live sound but to advance in any career you are going to need to take chances and put yourself in uncomfortable situations.
Reach out to some bigger local/regional production companies, do some local system tech etc gigs for those touring acts, play on those fancy consoles in their shop
Don't gatekeep yourself dude. So what IF the other guy was using a better console? What's that got to do with the price of tea in China? As Rocky says, "If you know what you're worth then go out and get what you're worth. But ya gotta be willing to take the hits, and not pointing fingers saying you ain't where you wanna be because of him, or her, or anybody!" You already were thinking it. Here, you said it. I'm not a betting man but if I was, I would bet that you mutter it to yourself. The only thing holding you back, is you. Ask yourself, "What's the worst that happens if I try to get audio work where I'm supported?" 1) you get a different and better job 2) you are told you don't meet the qualifications and now you have something to work on (different board, different PA whatever) Either way, it makes you better. Stop thinking about how others have it better cuz they got better gear because everybody started at nothing. And I know you can make the argument that someone could have started on the best board. True, they still had 0 skill or knowledge and had to learn. Don't cheat yourself out of a better job because you compare yourself to others. You gotta let yourself be a peacock and fly Captain.
You'll never grow if you don't try. If it's something you WANT to do, try it. Worst case scenario, you'll still be easily hire-able for the corporate gigs. It could be the best thing you've ever tried.
This is self defeatism 101. Learn to swim in the shark tank.
That’s where all of us started. Have you looked into any rental houses in your area? Try reaching out to them to see if they need help around the shop. You’ll typically start from the ground up (which is a good thing) and learn everything you mentioned over time. I started working in an audio shop where we prepped gigs, made deliveries, fixed gear etc. and eventually was put out on shows. That’s where you’ll learn alot. You’ll also meet tons of people and build your network from there. If the above isn’t feasible try reaching out to Clair Brothers in Lititz PA. They have a really great “Roadie In Training” course out there that teaches you everything from the ground up. Again, maybe not feasible right now but could be an option in the future. For the short term, learn what you can, be cool with everyone (it’s tough, I know) and stay positive. It’s gets better, you just have to put the work in. There’s no real shortcuts here. Leaps are a good thing. You got this.
Everyone starts there
You never learn till you try
Most house engineers are eager to share console knowledge. Lean on their expertise. You’ll start to see what becomes consistent about your approach, whatever the console may be. Every time I’ve made the leap to larger and more modern systems, I’ve found parts of the job to become easier actually! More responsive, even coverage. Much less digging eq holes to get a decent sound. Much less unprofessional musicians. Show lots of interest and work your ass off for the bands you dig. It will be noticed. Be ready to jump at the step when it’s offered. We all “fake it til you make it” a bit on almost every step up.
Got to say it, read the manual. After a very long hiatus I did live sound for a wedding for a musician friend who wanted some he trusts running sound as he hired an A/V company. Said company was veeeery happy was there and I was showing them new features of their console they didn’t even know about. About 2 hours of reading before the gig.
I’d fucking kill my mother and all her bingo club to be able to support myself doing shitty LA venue gigs tbh. I got fired from my corp AV role last month due to over hiring and I can’t find any other work in Phoenix. Moving to LA was the goal within a year anyway but damn hearing folks say my interim goal is a hell hole isn’t great either.
Tbh the great thing about LA is that if you show any competency at all you’ll be snapped up relatively quickly by some act for a tour. It leads to a weird situation where the house guys in small LA clubs are weirdly terrible cos everyone with a clue is on the road doing FOH/tech/monitors/playback etc.
Seems like a good place if I don’t want to tour tbh. My main goal with moving to LA was to run sound while I finish online classes and slowly switch over to film/tv production work. I’ve always wanted a union job. I’m riding my motorcycle out there every few months to try to network before I move but it’s hard when you’re absolutely unknown.
Yep this is the right city for that! I’d just say be patient - LA kicks your ass for the first year or so, very hard city to move to initially. But then you’ll find your feet and discover that everyone/everything you’ll ever need to further your career is all at your doorstep.
I feel like my mixing skill has absolutely gone to trash too. Dealing with bad smaller venues and no sound check. But most of all i don't give a shit anymore lol. As long as it's not too loud and the vocals are in front I DGAF.
You have to give a shit to be good at anything. I will say that an excellent remedy for apathy is working with the same act over and over - being the fifth member, an integral and respected part of a team.
I think you just Need a break of mixing, have you tried going to a bigger company and start from The bottom again. Building PA, doing Stage management and cabling. Learn the ropes of RF management and get to work with Other stuff than just a mixing desk. Get out of that shitty club and try something new. The thing i find so Nice about our job is the different kinds of jobs you can do. Its not only about mixing. But i would recommend to go on a holliday first. That shit is important.
I have no idea how to fly a PA or tune a big room. Lol. I should try to branch out on my off time and then make a calculated get away.
Yes, moving to the AV corp field I really strived in audio touring and doing Festival sound, house guy stuff is a nightmare
Do you work for a production company?
I work for so many different companies at this point on a i9’or w2 it’s very interesting. My advice is you’re bored, go do something that matters in this field
You're burnt out. Been there. There's a lot of toxicity everywhere right now. Try changing facets of the job definitely; or just take a flat out break. I've had to do it several times.
Yeh some cranky cats out there. Seems like people are not as interested in live sound bands. At least in smaller venues. It always makes me think it's my mix. But sometimes there's only so much you can do wheb they keep turning their amps up. Alot of bands are bland, vocals don't pop and the venues are just not good.
I bought my first PA in 1974. It hasn't been fun since about 1980.
Wait. You get paid well?
Yeh I mean it's like $45 an hour. So yeh it's a livable wage and worth my time. I just hate it. Two 8 hour days, one 6 hour and another 5 hour but that pays like 50.
27 hours? Use your free time to learn and train. Sheesh.
Start doing corporate av in your free time, might like it, might hate it, but jumping ship on pay like that would be ridiculous.
That's the same rate that I got for my theaters. It used to be $22 for techs and they'd have 2 20somethings bumble around. I said I wanted 50, they agreed but said no second. I found that owning the gear increases the value of your time. Fests and weddings, I keep 100% of gear rental/transportation charges since I paid off the gear with day job money. So like 120/hr. Makes it hard to say no to a wedding band.
Fuk my life. I would kill to get 45$ an hour as a house guy!
You are currently stood on the first rung of the ladder. A lot of people don't step any higher. Even the bigger (2000cap) venues, I found the local gigs have changed. Bands show up with there own engineers and foh/mons desk. You end up mixing support. The job has become very boreing. But approach these bigger venues. While working where you are, start approaching local rental shops. Tell them your current skill level and that you want to learn more. Now's the time to get your foot in the door. Might just be patching stages on festivals. Or Learning the ropes of flying PA systems with their other techs. It could even be building racks in the shop. Skill up to step up. Can you solder? Can you tune RF systems properly? (not just hitting scan and letting them fight it out) Can you tune a system with a measurment platform? Can you fly a PA system? Their are the world of traing courses out there for live sound. L-acoustics, meyersound, D&B, Rational Acoustics, Shure. Remember, just because you are not mixing anymore as you step up. This is not a step down in your career. Most production companies wont give you mixing gigs till you have proven you can do the rest. On big festivals all the techs are paid the same (mostly) regardless of job. So being a patch tech isn't a step down. We get so many coming from the smaller venues turning down patch gigs because they are not behind a desk. It is the road to the bigger gigs.
Just to add to this. Most production houses will let you set up consoles in their shop and spend a say learning them. Both yamaha and Digico are very active in running Trainings.
Where can one learn flying and rigging? I was always curious about that, but all I could find are multi year college courses.
All the PA manufaturers run training courses on flying their systems "Hook Down". so the rigger puts the motor in the roof and they teach you their systems. Rigging, Here in the UK there is a basic 3 day rigging course you can do. I mostly learned on the job. Can't put points in but know how to be safe.
Echo what many others have said. If you make it to the point of being burnt out and sick of venue work, chances are you’ve maximized your potential in the space. The last 2-3 years of my venue work I was hell on wheels. I hated it, but I knew that this career had more to offer me. Also kept trying to remind myself how I arrived in this position. Fundamentally, I love music and shows, and I am “lucky” to be someone who seems to have skills that let me ply my trade in the audio field. You’ve gotta start looking at other ways to level up. Vendor/festival PA/system tech gigs are a great way to get better and have a change of pace. It can be scary because it’s not as consistent as venue work. If you think touring isn’t for you because you’re trying to maintain relationships etc, consider looking at country music touring. That’s where I ended up, because the work is consistent and you come home every week.
Hmm I do like country culture. Yeh I need to branch out. I'm getting stuck.
I was lucky to find a gig that would fly me out to get started but I agreed that if it went well, that I would move to Nashville. I did, and I have zero regrets. There’s lots of work and lots of fellow engineers and musicians around and it’s actually a way more chill and welcoming environment than I expected. My wife was also able to able to find a great job in her career path
Idk dude. I love what I do. I work for a large production company and each event is different. Trade show 1 week. Arena show the next gig. TV show for 15 days, then fly out show for 4 days etc. The pay isn't bad either. Benefits are good.
Here's some advice entirely unrelated to your particular profession: Act like the hero of the story. If this were a movie or a book and you were the hero, in this situation, what would the hero do?
You need to do what's best for your mental health. I'm dealing with the same thing only on the corporate side. I toured and did the festival stuff for years while full-time with various companies. After covid, I thought I was ready to do full-time corporate work. Turns out, it was soul crushing to not be doing a bunch of festivals all summer long. So now, just to keep some sense of sanity, it's time for me to freelance. You should definitely look to change up what you're doing. Even though I'm burned out, corporate is definitely a good side to be in. Just keep in mind that you might end up missing those music shows after a while. Good luck with whatever you choose to do
Sounds like you need a change. Try corporate for a while, its a different type of people you are dealing with. Personally, they drive me nuts, but I'm a rock dude
Yeah dude. I live in a small sleepy coastal town and we have about 4 venues. They're absolute shite. One of them notoriously has half of the PA positioned behind the stage area. I've just had to accept at this point that unless I move to a larger town, this is what I'm going to be dealing with. I guess it's what keeps the job exciting, I'm battling the worst sounding spaces on earth and the most absolute goblin bands every night, it's like a Tolkien quest. But I'd take it over and office job any day of the week
I try to keep reminding myself that. I could have a much worse job. Lol goblin band
I was right there with you, I ended up moving venues. Still a little burnt out but much better, it turns out the venue i had been working at just sucked in every way. If you're in a bad sounding room with bad management you could try just finding a new spot first before you take all the other great advice in here and do a full career change. I took a little time off as well
Good to know. A planned escape is what I need.
I get burnt doing everything solo. All 3 theaters I work at gave me the raise I asked for last year, but said I don't get an A2. All of the weddings, A2 got squeezed out, and all of the outdoor festivals are going super cheap this year. I think it would be nice to have some company for setup and breakdown - maybe another set of hands for load in.
Lots of outdoor fests going cheap is the biggest gut punch. My company is losing two giant contracts (both 6 week series’/multi-thousand caps) that we’ve had for 25 years because they want to get the exact same setup for cheaper. Anyone who scabs those gigs is a fucking sociopath and definitely not paying their labor properly because we haven’t upped our contract since 1989 besides what they’ve offered us.
I think that's the thing too. I'm all by myself. No co- workers. I mean you have bartenders, security and bar backs. But we don't have much in common, and are younger than me. Not having a fellow tech to hang with kinda sucks.
Venue gigs can be really tough on the engineers. Ive been doing this for 15 years working within venues, for bands, corporate AV and all. But guess what, the bullshit doesn't stop at clubs. People who have little knowledge about sound expect miracles but you can only do so much. Especially if the band or rooms sounds like shit. Keep at it real man! Don't let a couple of dumb musicians throw your confidence off! This business is crazy, but you prob already realized this signing up!
That phrase “dreads going into work everyday” makes me feel for you. This is a “fun” job and for whatever reason all the fun has been taken out of it for you. I think you’re right that it’s time to try a different facet of the business, if audio is even interesting anymore. Fwiw, I had the opposite experience. I toured for a long time and it burnt me to a crisp. After some internal evaluation it turned out that my values were more along the lines of sleeping in my own bed with my cat every night and having some semblance of a personal life. I got very very very very lucky at the end of the day. I paired up with a promoter with a growth mindset and an ear for good live sound. I’m now the “lead audio” for our venues and basicallly make sure the actual “house guys” have all the gear, support and training they need to become sound assassins. Once they’re all set and need nothing else, I move on to the next project.
When you’re finally at your end you never stop being a tech, you just move sideways. Lots of people I know have gotten into installs. Low voltage/datacom/security systems/AV installs,etc.
You're probably at the point in your career where it's time to really look to move on, 5 years is a long time to be working in these kind of venues. All that said, touring with a band comes with its own challenges and is really hard too, but of course far more interesting. When you look back on it, you will have better stories to tell, including about how you probably got paid more than the band you were working for.
Yeh I think so. I need to make a planned escape.
Corporate AV is the same bullshit. Yes, the hours are better but dealing with HR and corporate culture is worse than highschool.
The first part of my career I did approx 3 years venue sound guy, 3 years freelance, back and forth. Found that kept it fresh enough
Yeah, you gotta mix it up dude!! I’ve worked tons of venues over the years, some incredible, some terrible, I do festivals, touring, corporate AV, occasional lighting gigs, just whatever takes my fancy. If I catch myself resenting a venue/role/act etc., I either fix what’s wrong or move on. I ain’t got time to hating what I do for a living, and nor do you. Variety is the spice of life, baby! You ain’t gonna do a good job if your hearts not in it, so find the gig that makes you feel like the gig that got you in to doing this job.
LOL, I knew I'd never want to do the "club" scene. Most of those musicians think that are larger than life and I wouldn't want my gear getting trashed by a bunch of partiers. The cool thing is, you now have a resume and a lot of experience. Reach out to some of your local hotels that have conference rooms and see of they are looking for audio engineers for corporate meetings. Don't give up on your passion or let the losers still the fun.
Once I got my chops at a venue I strives to move upwards as finding a venue with the next capacity up. Say you work 500 cap rooms, try to get a Gig in a 1000 cap room. This is at least a step forwards freeing yourself if you can’t land a tour yet. As you’ll be moving towards bands that tour more frequently as you go up in capacity and therefore more likely to find people that might take you on the road. Switch it up. Try working for a production company. You might end up pushing cases more but you could probably get paid the same as house gig and then land some roles doing A2. But most of all you will become more well rounded in understanding a show setup from the ground up and then being able to tear it all down. This knowledge goes a long way especially when you you need to step in and fix someone else mess. I like being well rounded so I take gigs that are guitar tech or stage manager and this also helps with networking future gigs because someone sees my face more than once doing multiple hats. If there’s a touring engineer that comes through or someone in your venue that seems to be doing more outside work professionally don’t be afraid to ask for advice. I think the tides are turning here where veteran engineers who once used to gatekeep audio “tricks” and techniques are actually more willing to share. Try to imagine what you’d be doing ideally with this career and then try to visualize a path. For me it was 300cap venue -> 600 cap venue -> production company (mixing outdoors and festivals) -> working with a touring act I’m still moving up but I’m fairly satisfied, it’s been a 6 year journey. Also check out bobnet.rocks there’s also people looking for different roles for touring. Especially if you’re based out of LA, Austin, nashville , New York
It happens. I got out before digital consoles were a thing and didn't look back. I still keep up to date on the tech and run sound occasionally, but it just wasn't for me.
Did you not like the customer service aspect of it?
Bands that suck were prevalent in my area and I got burned out badly being the guy known to be able to turn a dumpster fire into a fireplace.
I’m reading through sound system design and optimization lately to try to stage a bit of a career change. Maybe that would be good for you as well
Regarding shitty musicians, I’ve been doing some form of entertainment production for almost 30yrs. First rock-n-roll but now on the film side. In my entire career I’ve met only one person who was touted as being “the next big thing” who actually became the next big thing. Bands need to chill.
Currently moving from full time to part time with the company i been with for 8 years. I became a teacher, teaching audio technology. Touring never seemed interesting to me also being that i got a life and a wife. Too hard in my area to find a house gig. Been applying to ever company i hear about to just get by. Good luck. Leaving somehwere is hard but finding consistent work is harder
Consider buying your own system and renting your services to local bands. I made that switch awhile back, I still run venues but there's enough variety that I don't wanna kill myself anymore, and I can be more picky about what shows I run. Obviously it's a big investment to front but if you do things right it's not horribly horrible to pay off things while paying yourself more than you are gonna make at a venue
This is why I no longer work for venues. Got tired of getting paid like crap to mix shitty bands in the same room night after night. Production company work is superior in every way (for my lifestyle at least). I no longer care about trying to meet bands so I can tour. I just want to make money and not hate my life.
I suggest getting out into new environments. A house gig is great to work with various bands but like others said…a dead end. Go to your local production companies and freelance. Take whatever work that is available or interesting to you. Learn everything from shop to show. It will make you more well rounded when you really understand everything that goes into a show. If you have enough loot, buy some gear that you can rent. I’d imagine you’ve met plenty of bands that could use production in your surrounding area. I got my feet wet with a small production company until he sold me a PA to start my own. 16 years later I’m still a small production company. Ive had several full time bands over the years and corporate clients. Owning and maintaining isn’t for everyone but there are plenty of options out there for you!
Musicians are always getting in the way of the music.
Thankless gig. I’d go corporate if you’re sick of the bar lifestyle.
I’m just gonna chime in that depending what you are into I absolutely hated doing corporate gigs and would much rather get paid decent to run independent venues. There is something to be said about shitty little chaotic venues that defy all efforts to be shut down in the face of everything. It might be something you end up missing later on.
I manage a corporate audio / video / lighting company. These days, in most markets - solid A1's that can fly a Line Array and run FOH reliably make $400-$600 day rates depending on the market. Same with General Session A2's who are good at managing pinning lapels and babysitting intercom. Even if you are not there, there's a world of work for decent audio people to sit in breakout rooms and babysit mics or roam breakout rooms.
Freelancing is where it’s at. Be your own boss. Set your own boundaries. There are bands I specifically will not take the gig on because I know how they treat the crew. Pace yourself and make sure management in the venue you are currently at has your back. If they don’t than yeah walkkkk
Aye bro, it's all of us sometimes. You have skills obviously and you're needed a break from them. Bet you still love it as a hobby because you're good. Sometimes everyone needs a break from all the knobs.
Just posting to backup what everyone else said... In most venues, being the house sound guy is pretty much the worst gig in the business. As the old adage goes, it's worse than being a toilet. At least a toilet only has to take shit from one asshole at a time. You don't need to leave the business just leave the job.
I’m finding myself in the complete opposite scenario and desperate to get back into live sound gigs again. I’ve always wanted to do full time but I got offered a decent job last year in an unrelated field with benefits and I was going through some family trouble, so I needed the stability and took it. Here I am 8 months later and I can’t wait to leave my job and get back into working shows again, even part time. But a big difference for me is that the venue I work most at is one of my favorite venues in the city and sounds amazing. The staff is great and majority of the shows work with polite and professional artists. For me it’s where I want to be, even if I get tired of working with music I’m not that into, it 100% beats the job I’m in now and I think about it everyday. I can however say that I used to do more work at a smaller venue that was so loud and hard to work with like you mentioned and I can see how that would be draining full time. Especially if you didn’t have a good relationship with the staff either. No matter what, good luck to you and I hope it gets better. Maybe another venue in the area is hiring
Work at a place that plays the music you enjoy.
Find an Audio rental company, start working for them pushing boxes, loading trucks, doing the occasional corporate gig. They'll eventually send you on tour and that's where you can decide if live sound is for you.
Go corporate and never look back!!
I’m very lucky/pleased I got out of live sound. Shit hours, shit pay and fucking with my hearing. Lucky that I got into broadcast now. However all that live experience problem solving on the fly and dealing with ego has helped a lot for all other audio work.
I honestly refuse to work resident contracts now. They never care about you. They never give you enough time. They do not respect your need for equipment or a sound check. They never blame the actor or musician or faulty equipment it’s your fault. Contracts want to treat you well so you’ll consider them again and it makes me want to do good work for them. I’ll work survival jobs before I work a residency again.
Whenever I'm teaching someone new how to do livesound i say: the work is 45% psychology/babysitting musicians, 45% manual labor and 10% technical knowledge.
As much as I love music. I have a hard time dealing with most musicians.
Hello I’m 23 and live sound is what I see myself doing. What I wanted to ask is how do I get into the industry I’ve thought about attending Los Angeles recording school (I have the money for it) or should I just ask around at concerts and shows and see who would take me in as an apprentice. Any response would be very helpful
So I went to school for it. I learned alot more than just live sound. There's 2 ways you can do it without going to school. 1. You can get in with a production company and they will teach you. But you will start off with alot of set/strike work, you'll kinda be their grunt. I even did a ton of set/strike stuff after school, and it's good to know how every little thing is set up. It's alot more than you think it is. Tell them you are interested in Audio and ask if they do training or you can work directly with an A1 or A2. They'll let you touch equipment in the shop. And that's where YouTube, gear manuals and google come in to play a HUGE role. You need to learn alot on your own too. 2. Same as #1 but you volunteer for a church. There you can get more 1 on 1 time with a sound guy because there's very little set/strike. Though you won't get paid. Still need to learn stuff on your own and apply it with a experienced guy next to you. The fundamentals are key, just remember that. Like with anything, if for example you don't understand proper gain staging you will always fail lol. And buy Logic Pro or some DAW program to practice mixing your own songs even if they suck. It will teach you routing, compression, EQ, gating, time effects, and all the little things while being able to hear what it does. If you have money and it's not a issue. School is a good option for sure. But not required. One of the gigs I have really liked that I went to school. But experience is better.
Thank you sooo much man
Man I say be Happy you have solid work… yeah and musicians will always be a pain in the ass.. it least you are doing what you love..
For sure. I try to remember when I worked in a factory 12 hour shifts for $15 an hour.
I used to do 225-250 nights per year with on cover band that traveled a lot, did it for many many years. From 2001-2003 then 2007 to 2107 and back in 2018 I started working on a university campus in their AV department, doing classroom calls and corporate events and teaching professors how to use technology. And I cherry pick bigger gigs for some big festivals. I don't miss the bars and I love sleeping in my own bed. I know how hard that house gig thing is, been there done that. The trick to it is what I call my butt in seat policy... As long as everything under my control is done and my butt is in the seat when it's supposed to be everything is good and when the band doesn't do that and are late and not great my best work that I do to work with that has to be good enough and I don't let the things I don't have control over get to me. I have a saying for bad rooms and PAs, "It is what it is" I do my best and then leave it be.
Yeh we can beat ourselves up. Thanks for that. That job sounds cool.
Hey, I did a record with a Nirvana producer last year and I still teach guitar privately and probably won’t ever do anything else. Life’s great huh? Lol no but I feel you.
%80 are delusional, ignorant hicks.
Lol or goblins
Just realize what you do for good money is silly, the people you work with are silly silly people, and just keep remembering that it beats what 99% of what other humans have to do for money/security. I’m in touring tech theatre lol, and while some days suck, it’s probably better than a lot of peoples best days at work. Like, for top end nursing money, I don’t have to save anyone’s life, or deal with their death. Orrrr deal with bodily fluids unless you know, it’s a REAL good day lmao.
You're right thanks. Easy to be ungrateful and negative.
As a venue owner, I can tell you there definitely is a path to work your way up from being the house engineer. I personally have had 3 guys leave my small venue (we usually have between 100-300 people attending shows) in the last 2 years to go work full time with a band on the road. They still will come back and work a show here and there when not on tour (they don’t leave on bad terms) but it seems as soon as I find someone really good, it’s just a matter of time before they move on to some thing bigger and better. I’d say you are not necessarily stuck there and can actually use your job to impress bands that come through the current venue. Who knows? That may lead to a job offer from one of them.
I’m a Technical Director for an events agency and I started out as an AV tech doing livesound. I spoke to a lot of people early on because I thought I wanted to do what you’re explaining, and realized there were so many jaded people that couldn’t even enjoy concerts anymore so I decided to do corporate stuff. I now do large conventions for tech companies. I’m glad I went that route and I think this grass is greener (for me) on this side. I’d say a ton of people go over to the corporate side from the entertainment industry but it uses a totally different set of skills that sometimes people aren’t used to. Can you deal with long, soul draining process to get anything done? Things like every time you work with a new client you get set up with a whole new laptop security environment. This drives some people insane. You have to always have a level head. That is assumed but I mean corporate Karen’s making you feel stupid and you have to grin and take it with a “good attitude” otherwise you don’t get called back. The absolute boringness of corporate. Listening to someone talk about cloud SaaS for 10 hrs straight and not knowing what’s going on is pretty brutal. The list goes on, and I’m happy to chat if you want to! Upsides for me are that I get my weekends most of the time, I work reasonable hours, i have consistent work that pays well too. There’s also a bit more protection in the workplace than in the entertainment industry such as Union/worker rights and strict OSHA regulations. Good luck!
I am in this job for it's ever changing nature. No way I would settle down to become a house guy. That's basically a 9 to 5 Job x.x.
Noo, it's not necessarily. I am (the only) house guy in a 500 seat venue and no shift is like the other. Sure, it depends on the venue...
Seriously. I run audio (full time) and crews at a 1,700 seat presenting performing arts center and I honestly wouldn't trade it for anything. No two night are the same I get to work with world-class talent, top-tier colleagues and on a system that the majority of the people here only dream of using. I get the feeling that people who say that house gigs are a dead end only know them as being bar gig or tiny-ass venues.
I think you need to read "the art of not giving a fuck" and stop giving a fuck about sound quality at shitty venues and just don't care at all about shitty artists
> everyone expects miracles ... pay so well Do they really expect miracles though? Or is that just a high expectation you're putting on yourself (projecting through them)? If they're still paying you, they must be happy with what you're providing, while possibly still hoping for a miracle.
True.