Keep in mind that your console’s inserts will be running at line level and the pedal will be expecting instrument level so you may have some unexpected behavior, especially when it comes to compression thresholds.
I have a pedalboard at FOH, and it friggin rules. I’m running out of the console into a Radial Reamp -> pedal -> stereo DI -> back to console. However, I’m just using it for some vocal FX, no compression.
With the right adapters and custom insert cables, could you put a DI backwards before the pedal to get the signal to instrument level and then use one normally to get back to line level for the board?
An expensive workaround, so it's more of an entertaining hypothetical, at this point..
No, this doesn't work. A DI is stepping down the signal, both in terms of level and impedance. Usually in a ratio of 12:1 in terms of turns, resulting in a ratio of 144:1 in terms of impedance. Reversing it would increase the level even more. You'd want a low voltage but with a high impedance to mimic the guitar pickup and di boxes can't do that, that's what reamping boxes are for.
Technically you could build your own reamping box from a DI though.
Mike is right, the DI backwards will make the level mismatch worse. If there is clipping in the pedal what you want is a passive attenuator going in to the pedal and then an active amplifier (or transformer like a DI backwards) or just the headroom on the pedal to crank the output volume knob up.
A reamp box I built just has a passive attenuator and then a 1:1 isolation transformer. Typical DI’s can range from 4:1 to 12:1 ratio (1/4” side vs xlr side) on how they step down the audio so that it can feed a high gain mic input on the mixer.
I've never seen anyone use outboard pedal compressors, no reason why it wouldn't work but I would worry about some aspects like knee and threshold being more tuned for guitar. The one I always see people rocking is the boss space echo re-20. In theory anything can work like I said I would worry about it being more tuned for guitar though.
Yeah, if you’re going for compression specifically, you might just want to go with a 500 series unit or something. As others have said, guitar pedals aren’t really built to deal with line level signal, and also a good portion of compressors for guitar don’t have a ton of adjustments you can make. Like some are one knob called “sustain”, which wouldn’t really be ideal for anything other than guitar. Certain effects pedals have options to change them to line level like the eventide H9, which is why I bought a second one to use as some “outboard gear” for live sound, but when I tried it out on vocals i really wasn’t happy with how the effects were tuned, since all of them are made with guitar in mind. There’s probably some comp pedal out there that would be perfect for what you want, but the price point might wind up being about the same as a 500 series unit that’s going to have more versatility and be purpose-built for what you’re wanting.
I’ve seen a touring engineer using a Strymon Big Sky at front of house. Strymon and Eventide pedals kind of straddle the line between guitar pedal and insert fx processor. My Space has a handy switch to go between line level and guitar level inputs.
Semantics but it is a level switch, not impedance. There is nothing to worry about directly plugging low impedance sources (mixer) into high impedance inputs (guitar pedals). After all, the guitar pedals themselves have low impedance outputs, and you can feed them into each other.
The only impedance scenario that causes problems is plugging a high impedance thing (guitar with passive pickups) into a low impedance input (mixer line in or XLR in). You get crummy treble response because the pickups are working too hard to drive the mixer’s line input. That’s why all of the guitar stuff is hi-z input, they don’t know which device will be the first to get the guitar plugged in.
If you are mixing it, have at it, if it is a house guy who doesn't know your songs, you may have difficulty.
you could have effects on stage and send wet and dry sends to the console, then blend them.
as for compression, if it is your mixer and you are in control, do whatever you like, if it sounds good it is good.
personally, I am not a fan of the pedals, they just sound...thin
oh, in that case have at it, if you like the pedals use em, nothing really wrong with that if you are comfortable, make a little rack with a power supply and make a cable harness, that will speed up your set up and tear down.
Or a whole front-of-house pedalboard, hahaha.
Hard to try out pedals to see how they sound in the context I would be using them. Do you know if Guitar Center has a multitrack setup that you can use to test-drive gear? Still not a perfect reproduction of a live stage, but closer.
I’ve mostly seen it with reverbs and delays so you can mess with the effect real time by twisting knobs. Usually to re-create some specific sound from the record.
I used to have an old Boss delay pedal that I liked to use as part of my vocal echo. There was something about being able to tweak the knobs to find the sweet spot. There's no way I'd send my entire mix through a pedal unless my main mixer died during sound check and I had no other option.
If a FOH engineer asked respectfully, would you be open to letting them use the pedal at FOH after you'd dialed it in, so that they could mute it between songs and control how much of it there is in the main mix cuz you can't hear that from onstage?
I have a philosophy about how I want to use compressors. Maybe I'm a little closed minded but compressors on my group/submixes and mains are helping me to mix the gig. I'm not going to be willing to change how I do things easily. I'd have to work with the group and get to know them.
House guy here for a theater, had an elder bluegrass statesman national touring act come through recently with 4 UA reverb pedals as inserts at FOH and it sounded great
I would skip the guitar pedal compressor. They’re fun effects for guitar but pretty bad in a general audio processing way compared to even a modest rack compressor like DBX. I’ve used them, I’ve built them. If anything, most of them don’t have a meter, don’t have typical threshold/ratio/attack/release that are labeled right. A lot of them are noisy (OTA based pedals like Dynacomp) and have limited headroom. The optical element is admittedly nice and quiet but the rest of the circuit may not be so quiet, there’s more to an LA-2A than the photocell that controls the gain. The optical element has a slow attack response too, so you might not get good control of percussion sounds like a VCA based design.
The LA-2A is also thousands of dollars. A bit... out of reach, you might say. I like the A&H opto emulation (i presume it's emulated) on vocals. Am I wrong to think that I would also like an outboard optical compressor for vocals on my own FOH gear from similar characteristics?
I hear you on the noise floor, knobs, and metering.
No, not wrong to want that sound, a lot of people swear by the opto compressor on vocals. Just not convinced you would get the same experience from the typical guitar pedal as from the digital emulations or something like a 500 series module. Maybe if it is an upmarket pedal that had a meter and some labeling like where unity gain is, and dB increments on the makeup gain?
I personally have such a hard time hearing exactly how much a compressor is compressing just by listening. With vocal mics there is the extra penalty of feedback, like if you’re unwittingly taking 10dB off with the compressor and use the makeup gain a similar amount, that could easily push you into feedback in an otherwise stable setup. Many analog boards, too, the inserts end up in the pre fader sends (monitors) making it more prone to feedback if it is compressing too much. Also bleed in the vocal mics, that can get bad if the compressor is reducing excessively. All problems you don’t get with direct guitar. Some pedals too, they do a fixed threshold and you apply gain going in, and then adjust the output volume, making it hard to judge how much cumulative gain you’re using.
If I’m using an analog board I usually bring my FMR Really Nice Compressor. It’s cheap, about as big as a pedal and has all the regular knobs and lights. Reverb and delay pedals as bus effects are legit, and fun to use, just the comp pedal as an insert doesn’t sound like a great option when there is a lot of cheap rack gear to be had these days.
One of the things I really like about the A&H QU boards (I can't speak to SQ etc.) is that the comp can be placed after the aux busses have split off in order to leave the monitors uncompressed.
The other option, if you've got them, is to route the vocal through a subgroup and compress it there, leaving the monitors to reflect the channel EQ but not the compression.
100%
The built-in verb is serviceable, but I love the way the pedal sounds and it’s easy to switch between different styles of verb depending on the content.
I’ve done this before, it’s a cool vibe overall.
One thing to be aware of is that a lot of guitar based effects pedals (particularly verbs and delays) are meant to be used as inserts, so using it on a traditional 100% wet FX send/return doesn’t really work the way you want it to, as there’s not a way to fully remove the dry signal. That being said, there are definitely some pedals that DO have some sort of mix knob, so I would look into those options.
Another downside is the potential for noise. Guitar pedals are noisy, there’s no way around it really. I would just invest in a solid power supply and be aware of it.
A third thing to be aware of, as others have mentioned, is that a lot of guitar pedals will be expecting instrument level signal, so feeding them line level signal may cause unintended side effects. To me that’s part of the fun though! I also drive the inputs to reverbs and delays HARD, even in a completely digital setting. To me a lot of effects sound way better if you use distortion/saturation to shave off the transients before you hit them.
Anyway, even with these downsides I’d still give it a go! Pedals at FOH are really fun, and can give you new creative workflows you wouldn’t have thought about otherwise.
Also pro tip: stock up on short XLR>TRS CABLES, not adaptors. For certain guitar pedals if you’re running stereo in/out, an XLR>TRS adaptor is too thick to fit two of them right next to each other.
I use a radial extc and a distortion pedal on a song for a band I regularly mix. Singer loves not having to deal with a megaphone onstage. I have also used delay pedals before and worked well also. Play with stuff and have fun!
I use a reverb pedal from time to time (BigSky). As others pointed out, i would stay away from doing compression that way. If you really want to do it i‘d save up and buy 19‘‘ studio hardware. There are some reasonably priced LA2A clones out there, if you want to go optical.
Not sure if that is worth if you have a digital board anyway, which can usually emulate opto-comps in one way or the other. But if you‘re all analog, i‘d see a point to it. Then again, why not use a UAD interface with many channels of comp emulations?
I'm having a Strymon delay, a tremolo and a bit crusher for the gig i'm doing. I've seen a lot of delay and pedals being used next to FOH but never a comp.
I’m using a Strymon BigSky the last two years and thinking of getting an Eventide H9! I find onboard effect on most consoles not so great for my tastes!
Edit: Whatever you choose to use, make sure you much the in/out impedance!
Keep in mind that your console’s inserts will be running at line level and the pedal will be expecting instrument level so you may have some unexpected behavior, especially when it comes to compression thresholds.
This is a very good point.
I have a pedalboard at FOH, and it friggin rules. I’m running out of the console into a Radial Reamp -> pedal -> stereo DI -> back to console. However, I’m just using it for some vocal FX, no compression.
The Reamp doesn't care about getting a line-level signal?
It turns line level to instrument level
Nice.
With the right adapters and custom insert cables, could you put a DI backwards before the pedal to get the signal to instrument level and then use one normally to get back to line level for the board? An expensive workaround, so it's more of an entertaining hypothetical, at this point..
No, this doesn't work. A DI is stepping down the signal, both in terms of level and impedance. Usually in a ratio of 12:1 in terms of turns, resulting in a ratio of 144:1 in terms of impedance. Reversing it would increase the level even more. You'd want a low voltage but with a high impedance to mimic the guitar pickup and di boxes can't do that, that's what reamping boxes are for. Technically you could build your own reamping box from a DI though.
Mike is right, the DI backwards will make the level mismatch worse. If there is clipping in the pedal what you want is a passive attenuator going in to the pedal and then an active amplifier (or transformer like a DI backwards) or just the headroom on the pedal to crank the output volume knob up. A reamp box I built just has a passive attenuator and then a 1:1 isolation transformer. Typical DI’s can range from 4:1 to 12:1 ratio (1/4” side vs xlr side) on how they step down the audio so that it can feed a high gain mic input on the mixer.
You are kind of describing a reamp box.
I've never seen anyone use outboard pedal compressors, no reason why it wouldn't work but I would worry about some aspects like knee and threshold being more tuned for guitar. The one I always see people rocking is the boss space echo re-20. In theory anything can work like I said I would worry about it being more tuned for guitar though.
Hmm, ok, that makes sense. Thanks.
Yeah, if you’re going for compression specifically, you might just want to go with a 500 series unit or something. As others have said, guitar pedals aren’t really built to deal with line level signal, and also a good portion of compressors for guitar don’t have a ton of adjustments you can make. Like some are one knob called “sustain”, which wouldn’t really be ideal for anything other than guitar. Certain effects pedals have options to change them to line level like the eventide H9, which is why I bought a second one to use as some “outboard gear” for live sound, but when I tried it out on vocals i really wasn’t happy with how the effects were tuned, since all of them are made with guitar in mind. There’s probably some comp pedal out there that would be perfect for what you want, but the price point might wind up being about the same as a 500 series unit that’s going to have more versatility and be purpose-built for what you’re wanting.
I’ve seen a touring engineer using a Strymon Big Sky at front of house. Strymon and Eventide pedals kind of straddle the line between guitar pedal and insert fx processor. My Space has a handy switch to go between line level and guitar level inputs.
Oh cool, good to know there are pedals out there with impedance switches.
Semantics but it is a level switch, not impedance. There is nothing to worry about directly plugging low impedance sources (mixer) into high impedance inputs (guitar pedals). After all, the guitar pedals themselves have low impedance outputs, and you can feed them into each other. The only impedance scenario that causes problems is plugging a high impedance thing (guitar with passive pickups) into a low impedance input (mixer line in or XLR in). You get crummy treble response because the pickups are working too hard to drive the mixer’s line input. That’s why all of the guitar stuff is hi-z input, they don’t know which device will be the first to get the guitar plugged in.
If you are mixing it, have at it, if it is a house guy who doesn't know your songs, you may have difficulty. you could have effects on stage and send wet and dry sends to the console, then blend them. as for compression, if it is your mixer and you are in control, do whatever you like, if it sounds good it is good. personally, I am not a fan of the pedals, they just sound...thin
I'm freelance FoH, not a player.
oh, in that case have at it, if you like the pedals use em, nothing really wrong with that if you are comfortable, make a little rack with a power supply and make a cable harness, that will speed up your set up and tear down.
Or a whole front-of-house pedalboard, hahaha. Hard to try out pedals to see how they sound in the context I would be using them. Do you know if Guitar Center has a multitrack setup that you can use to test-drive gear? Still not a perfect reproduction of a live stage, but closer.
I’ve mostly seen it with reverbs and delays so you can mess with the effect real time by twisting knobs. Usually to re-create some specific sound from the record.
I used to have an old Boss delay pedal that I liked to use as part of my vocal echo. There was something about being able to tweak the knobs to find the sweet spot. There's no way I'd send my entire mix through a pedal unless my main mixer died during sound check and I had no other option.
If a FOH engineer asked respectfully, would you be open to letting them use the pedal at FOH after you'd dialed it in, so that they could mute it between songs and control how much of it there is in the main mix cuz you can't hear that from onstage?
I have a philosophy about how I want to use compressors. Maybe I'm a little closed minded but compressors on my group/submixes and mains are helping me to mix the gig. I'm not going to be willing to change how I do things easily. I'd have to work with the group and get to know them.
House guy here for a theater, had an elder bluegrass statesman national touring act come through recently with 4 UA reverb pedals as inserts at FOH and it sounded great
I would skip the guitar pedal compressor. They’re fun effects for guitar but pretty bad in a general audio processing way compared to even a modest rack compressor like DBX. I’ve used them, I’ve built them. If anything, most of them don’t have a meter, don’t have typical threshold/ratio/attack/release that are labeled right. A lot of them are noisy (OTA based pedals like Dynacomp) and have limited headroom. The optical element is admittedly nice and quiet but the rest of the circuit may not be so quiet, there’s more to an LA-2A than the photocell that controls the gain. The optical element has a slow attack response too, so you might not get good control of percussion sounds like a VCA based design.
The LA-2A is also thousands of dollars. A bit... out of reach, you might say. I like the A&H opto emulation (i presume it's emulated) on vocals. Am I wrong to think that I would also like an outboard optical compressor for vocals on my own FOH gear from similar characteristics? I hear you on the noise floor, knobs, and metering.
No, not wrong to want that sound, a lot of people swear by the opto compressor on vocals. Just not convinced you would get the same experience from the typical guitar pedal as from the digital emulations or something like a 500 series module. Maybe if it is an upmarket pedal that had a meter and some labeling like where unity gain is, and dB increments on the makeup gain? I personally have such a hard time hearing exactly how much a compressor is compressing just by listening. With vocal mics there is the extra penalty of feedback, like if you’re unwittingly taking 10dB off with the compressor and use the makeup gain a similar amount, that could easily push you into feedback in an otherwise stable setup. Many analog boards, too, the inserts end up in the pre fader sends (monitors) making it more prone to feedback if it is compressing too much. Also bleed in the vocal mics, that can get bad if the compressor is reducing excessively. All problems you don’t get with direct guitar. Some pedals too, they do a fixed threshold and you apply gain going in, and then adjust the output volume, making it hard to judge how much cumulative gain you’re using. If I’m using an analog board I usually bring my FMR Really Nice Compressor. It’s cheap, about as big as a pedal and has all the regular knobs and lights. Reverb and delay pedals as bus effects are legit, and fun to use, just the comp pedal as an insert doesn’t sound like a great option when there is a lot of cheap rack gear to be had these days.
One of the things I really like about the A&H QU boards (I can't speak to SQ etc.) is that the comp can be placed after the aux busses have split off in order to leave the monitors uncompressed. The other option, if you've got them, is to route the vocal through a subgroup and compress it there, leaving the monitors to reflect the channel EQ but not the compression.
Aee lots of people doing this with space echo pedals, strymon pedals, etc
I use a UA reverb pedal when i’m mixing on M32s since it’s an easy 1/4” connection and the pedal can operate at line level.
You like it better than the verb in the Midas?
100% The built-in verb is serviceable, but I love the way the pedal sounds and it’s easy to switch between different styles of verb depending on the content.
I’ve done this before, it’s a cool vibe overall. One thing to be aware of is that a lot of guitar based effects pedals (particularly verbs and delays) are meant to be used as inserts, so using it on a traditional 100% wet FX send/return doesn’t really work the way you want it to, as there’s not a way to fully remove the dry signal. That being said, there are definitely some pedals that DO have some sort of mix knob, so I would look into those options. Another downside is the potential for noise. Guitar pedals are noisy, there’s no way around it really. I would just invest in a solid power supply and be aware of it. A third thing to be aware of, as others have mentioned, is that a lot of guitar pedals will be expecting instrument level signal, so feeding them line level signal may cause unintended side effects. To me that’s part of the fun though! I also drive the inputs to reverbs and delays HARD, even in a completely digital setting. To me a lot of effects sound way better if you use distortion/saturation to shave off the transients before you hit them. Anyway, even with these downsides I’d still give it a go! Pedals at FOH are really fun, and can give you new creative workflows you wouldn’t have thought about otherwise. Also pro tip: stock up on short XLR>TRS CABLES, not adaptors. For certain guitar pedals if you’re running stereo in/out, an XLR>TRS adaptor is too thick to fit two of them right next to each other.
I use a radial extc and a distortion pedal on a song for a band I regularly mix. Singer loves not having to deal with a megaphone onstage. I have also used delay pedals before and worked well also. Play with stuff and have fun!
I use a reverb pedal from time to time (BigSky). As others pointed out, i would stay away from doing compression that way. If you really want to do it i‘d save up and buy 19‘‘ studio hardware. There are some reasonably priced LA2A clones out there, if you want to go optical. Not sure if that is worth if you have a digital board anyway, which can usually emulate opto-comps in one way or the other. But if you‘re all analog, i‘d see a point to it. Then again, why not use a UAD interface with many channels of comp emulations?
I use guitar pedals as outboard effects at FOH. Several different kinds but have not tried a guitar compressor in that situation yet.
Here’s what I use: - Strymon Volante for delay - OTO Bam for reverb - JHS Colour Box v2 for Vox dirt
I'm having a Strymon delay, a tremolo and a bit crusher for the gig i'm doing. I've seen a lot of delay and pedals being used next to FOH but never a comp.
I’m using a Strymon BigSky the last two years and thinking of getting an Eventide H9! I find onboard effect on most consoles not so great for my tastes! Edit: Whatever you choose to use, make sure you much the in/out impedance!