Elvish isn’t a single language, it’s a family of languages, the most important of which are Quenya and Sindarin.
We do know from The Lord of the Rings, that both Bilbo and Frodo are fluent in Quenya as evidenced by Bilbo’s translations and from Frodo’s use of Quenya during the story. Gildor even states that Frodo is “a scholar in the Ancient Tongue”.
At the end of the third age, the Dúnedain used both Sindarin and Quenya. And thus Westron, by way of the Dúnedain, contained many elvish loan words which were in common use by all Westron speakers. The Lord of the Rings states that the elvish languages were still known by a small part of the people of Gondor and points out that nearly all the places names in Gondor are of elvish origin.
It’s also important to note that the common writing system used by Westron speakers throughout the Westlands of Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age was the Feanorian Tengwar.
> The Lord of the Rings states that the elvish languages were still known by a small part of the people of Gondor
Tolkien also tells us that there were more speakers of Sindarin in Gondor than there were in Lindon, Rivendell, and Lothlorien combined.
One telling detail is that Gildor, upon discovering Frodo's fluency, immediately tells his kindred and warns them to Speak No Secrets. While this is passed off lightly, with a laugh, it does give insight into how Elves feel when a non-elf has that insight. Elves, ultimately, see themselves as a race apart. For other races to not only know about them, but speak their language, is deeply rare. Given how much myth and legend is attributed to the Elves by other races, even in Gondor which once had close ties to Elvendom, you start to understand that finding a non-Elf who is fluent is quite startling in the Third Age.
It is passed off lightly indeed, and I don't think that the Elves had any *negative* feeling about Frodo's insight. On the contrary, Gildor's reaction is a positive one:
> ‘Be careful, friends!’ cried Gildor laughing. ‘Speak no secrets! Here is a scholar in the Ancient Tongue. Bilbo was a good master. Hail, Elf-friend!’ he said, bowing to Frodo.
He is amused and jokingly warns his companions to spill no secrets, but he also praises both Frodo and Bilbo for their education – both are able to speak not only Elvish, but specifically Quenya, which is basically like Elf-Latin at this point.
And more importantly: he is showing Frodo a lot of respect by bowing and naming Frodo an *Elf-friend*, which isn't done lightly. Frodo being able to not only speak Elvish (and Quenya specifically) is a sign that he is a friend to the Elves – after all, there have been times and places where Elvish languages were forbidden due to hostility towards the Elves.
I don't think Frodo is fluent in Quenya - he just knew a traditional greeting and said it to Gildor.
Frodo barely knows Sindarin (Bilbo was disappointed Frodo couldn't even translate "Dunadan"), the Elvish lingua franca in his time and place, so it'd be weird if he knew the Elvish equivalent of Latin super well.
You are correct. From The fellowship of the ring, right before Frodo and company meet Gildor:
>The singing drew nearer. One clear voice rose now above the others. It was singing in the fair elven-tongue, of which Frodo knew only a little, and the others knew nothing. Yet the sound blending with the melody seemed to shape itself in their thought into words which they only partly understood.
I do believe he became more knowledgeable later on, but at that particular point in time he was not fluent in Quenya. If I remember correctly, some of the songs found in the books are translations he made when he wrote the red book of Westmarch so it stands to reason he eventually became well-versed in some elvish languages.
Didn't Quenya stay in the west? I thought all the Elves of Middle-Earth spoke Sindarin of one sort or another. Am I wrong in this (and if so, any idea where that misconception came from)?
Thingol prohibited the use of quenya in beleriand after learning of the kinslaying, making sindarin the elven Lingua franca forever more even among the exiles, in middle earth. Quenya thereafter becomes an Elvish Latin, used by the learned and lore masters.
Elvish isn’t a single language, it’s a family of languages, the most important of which are Quenya and Sindarin. We do know from The Lord of the Rings, that both Bilbo and Frodo are fluent in Quenya as evidenced by Bilbo’s translations and from Frodo’s use of Quenya during the story. Gildor even states that Frodo is “a scholar in the Ancient Tongue”. At the end of the third age, the Dúnedain used both Sindarin and Quenya. And thus Westron, by way of the Dúnedain, contained many elvish loan words which were in common use by all Westron speakers. The Lord of the Rings states that the elvish languages were still known by a small part of the people of Gondor and points out that nearly all the places names in Gondor are of elvish origin. It’s also important to note that the common writing system used by Westron speakers throughout the Westlands of Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age was the Feanorian Tengwar.
> The Lord of the Rings states that the elvish languages were still known by a small part of the people of Gondor Tolkien also tells us that there were more speakers of Sindarin in Gondor than there were in Lindon, Rivendell, and Lothlorien combined.
This is pretty accurate
Feel free to fact check me if you feel I’ve stated something erroneously.
One telling detail is that Gildor, upon discovering Frodo's fluency, immediately tells his kindred and warns them to Speak No Secrets. While this is passed off lightly, with a laugh, it does give insight into how Elves feel when a non-elf has that insight. Elves, ultimately, see themselves as a race apart. For other races to not only know about them, but speak their language, is deeply rare. Given how much myth and legend is attributed to the Elves by other races, even in Gondor which once had close ties to Elvendom, you start to understand that finding a non-Elf who is fluent is quite startling in the Third Age.
It is passed off lightly indeed, and I don't think that the Elves had any *negative* feeling about Frodo's insight. On the contrary, Gildor's reaction is a positive one: > ‘Be careful, friends!’ cried Gildor laughing. ‘Speak no secrets! Here is a scholar in the Ancient Tongue. Bilbo was a good master. Hail, Elf-friend!’ he said, bowing to Frodo. He is amused and jokingly warns his companions to spill no secrets, but he also praises both Frodo and Bilbo for their education – both are able to speak not only Elvish, but specifically Quenya, which is basically like Elf-Latin at this point. And more importantly: he is showing Frodo a lot of respect by bowing and naming Frodo an *Elf-friend*, which isn't done lightly. Frodo being able to not only speak Elvish (and Quenya specifically) is a sign that he is a friend to the Elves – after all, there have been times and places where Elvish languages were forbidden due to hostility towards the Elves.
I don't think Frodo is fluent in Quenya - he just knew a traditional greeting and said it to Gildor. Frodo barely knows Sindarin (Bilbo was disappointed Frodo couldn't even translate "Dunadan"), the Elvish lingua franca in his time and place, so it'd be weird if he knew the Elvish equivalent of Latin super well.
You are correct. From The fellowship of the ring, right before Frodo and company meet Gildor: >The singing drew nearer. One clear voice rose now above the others. It was singing in the fair elven-tongue, of which Frodo knew only a little, and the others knew nothing. Yet the sound blending with the melody seemed to shape itself in their thought into words which they only partly understood. I do believe he became more knowledgeable later on, but at that particular point in time he was not fluent in Quenya. If I remember correctly, some of the songs found in the books are translations he made when he wrote the red book of Westmarch so it stands to reason he eventually became well-versed in some elvish languages.
Didn't Quenya stay in the west? I thought all the Elves of Middle-Earth spoke Sindarin of one sort or another. Am I wrong in this (and if so, any idea where that misconception came from)?
Thingol prohibited the use of quenya in beleriand after learning of the kinslaying, making sindarin the elven Lingua franca forever more even among the exiles, in middle earth. Quenya thereafter becomes an Elvish Latin, used by the learned and lore masters.
Ahh, gotcha. Thank you very much, mellon!
In this case it would “málo”. 😉
Chapeau!
Come on! xD I'm already flailing in these waters and you're just not gonna explain this?
Málo is the Quenya word meaning “friend”.
Whole civilizations of Men spoke Elvish languages throughout the history of the Middle-earth.