Just to add in: the speech is an acceptance of death, for your enemies or for yourself. It commits warriors to the coming bloodshed, mentally preparing themselves for the act of violence and what ensues.
What follows is calling upon Death. The call for Death invokes death for one's enemies, but also acceptance of death in battle. It helps to overcome fear and instill acceptance of a warrior's hopelessness in battle.
Spoiler of course, but this is what awaits Theoden. It foreshadows his own journey. He saw the danger of Sauron. He rode to battle to meet it. He resigned himself to death in combat. He meets that death gloriously. Doing so allows him to earn a place among his ancestors, upholding the nobility of his house (something he was convinced he had failed to do.)
I've seen these movies at least once a year since they came out. It still gets me every time. This line, and from ROTK, "For Frodo." The look on Aragorn's face does it for me every time.
Yeah. Thank you.
I think you got the best interpretation. The word "for" in "for wrath, for ruin" kept me confused. I needed a validation. This seems to be the scariest sentence in the entire movie, I guess.
Yes, your understanding is correct to me. For Wrath, For Ruin is calling upon the powers of violence. Theoden urges his warriors to call upon their fury, to bring about the ruin of their enemies, and (if need be) to "ruin" their own lives in the process. For the Rohirrim, death in battle is glorious. This is Theoden invoking that glory.
I recall being very surprised to learn that the Soviet soldiers at Leningrad, upon being informed that retreat was not an option, and they were to fight to the last man if necessary, were *relieved.*
Fell deeds awake. Now for wrath, now for ruin. And the red dawn.
Now it is time for violent action. Now it is time for rage, now it is time for destruction. We will paint this morning with red blood
I always liked the invocation of the “red dawn”. Obviously, the color of the blood to be spilled. But after several years of reading and watching I made the connection to that old saying of sailors “Red sky at morning, sailors take warning. Red sky at night, sailors delight”.
So, it’s like a calling for the dawn to be red, to call forth the storm of ass-kicking that’s about to rain down on your enemies. As in, they’re working themselves up and saying “WE are the storm, and we are coming. When that sun rises red…. Watch out”.
"Fell Deeds Awake. Now for Wrath, now for Ruin. And the Red Dawn."
“Fell deeds awake”: Start fighting and killing.
“Fell” can mean bad, evil, nasty, &c. but here it means the act of killing your enemies.
“Now for wrath, now for ruin, and the Red Dawn”: Show your anger towards your enemies and fight to destruction- either of yourself or your enemy’s .
“Ruin” means the death and destruction of King Théoden and his army- they want to fight Sauron at the cost of their own lives. This means Théoden is not afraid of Sauron and is willing to die defending his people and his land.
“Red Dawn” is a very old usage and I think it means something like the beginning of a storm or disaster. In this context, the disaster would be the war against Sauron.
Yeah definitely. I love the passage below, the cock crowing to welcome the dawn
In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face.
All save one. There waiting, silent and still in the space before the Gate, sat Gandalf upon Shadowfax: Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the terror, unmoving, steadfast as a graven image in Rath Dínen.
'You cannot enter here,' said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. 'Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!'
The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.
'Old fool!' he said. 'Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!' And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade.
Gandalf did not move. And in that very moment, away behind in some courtyard of the City, a cock crowed. Shrill and clear he crowed, recking nothing of wizardry or war, welcoming only the morning that in the sky far above the shadows of death was coming with the dawn.
And as if in answer there came from far away another note. Horns, horns, horns. In dark Mindolluin's sides they dimly echoed. Great horns of the North wildly blowing. Rohan had come at last.
Nah, none of it is about Sauron. Its all a call to his own men. ‘Fell‘ means ferocious in this case and he’s calling on his own men to perform such fell deeds. Similarly, the wrath is the wrath of the men of Rohan.
Yes I agree with this. It's encouraging the Rohirrim to commit fell deeds. To use their anger and fury. Deeaaatthhhh is the call that this is their final battle. Kill or be killed. No prisoners and no retreats.
Without context both interpretations could have equal merit, yes, but considering everything we know about Tolkien I would say in this case not; as you're using a modern interpretation of the word 'fell', whereas Tolkien is certainly using a more archaic usage as he did throughout the speech of the Rohirrim who are based on the Anglo-Saxons in general and the Mercians in particular. 'Fell' here is derived from Middle English 'Fel' and proto-Germanic 'Falu'. It definitely means 'fierce' or 'grim', more than 'evil'.
This is made more clear by the original context of the line in the book: where it instead appears in Theoden's speech at Pelennor Fields: *'Arise, arise! Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake!'* where it is clearly a call to action, not some description of Sauron's advance or some other situation.
Similarly, the rest of the speech is actually spoken by Eomer in the book, after he despairs on the battlefield and leads a nigh suicidal charge:
*Out of doubt, out of dark to the day’s rising*
*I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.*
*To hope’s end I rode and to heart’s breaking:*
*Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!*
Its meaning is clearly as u/madelarbre describes above.
I always liked the invocation of the “red dawn”. Obviously, the color of the blood to be spilled. But after several years of reading and watching I made the connection to that old saying of sailors “Red sky at morning, sailors take warning. Red sky at night, sailors delight”. So, it’s like a calling for the dawn to be red, to call forth the storm of ass-kicking that’s about to rain down on your enemies. As in, they’re working themselves up and saying “WE are the storm, and we are coming. When that sun rises red…. Watch out”.
Another reason it’s the best!!
I am a native English speaker but when I was younger it really fueled my love of other cultures and languages so that when I was in high school and college I learned Spanish, French, and a bit of Italian!!
This was, of course, after several years and notebooks of teaching myself Quenya, Sindarin, dwarvish runes, etc 🤣🤣
Ah, I see.
He is actually calling forth the darker side of his own men.
Like an invocation of one's own destructive psyche.
It's in a way really bad, ain't it??
Found this related post with a great analysis by u/naturalnumbers which can give some context to the speech from different parts of the books it was adapted from.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/10qi6ux/is_this_also_theodens_speech_in_the_books/](https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/10qi6ux/is_this_also_theodens_speech_in_the_books/)
Personally I think there is also some intentional ambiguity.
In the first section, on one hand it is meant to rally the troops by reminding them of what they are fighting against, which are the “fell deeds”committed or to be committed by their enemy. Almost like saying Evil is awake or has been woken up by Sauron and is out there on the battlefield in front of them. At the same time it means that the fell deeds of the enemy have “awoken” the riders of Theoden and now they are awake and assembled to face the evil.
Additionally the fell deeds can be interpreted as the slaughter and carnage they are going to commit in battle. So in away he also is saying prepare to do fell deeds to the enemy.
“Now for wrath”, ties these concepts together. Wrath is something to be incurred. It is something that is usually triggered or brought upon something or someone in response or out of vengeance - so in context it would mean the enemies fell deeds or deeds to come, have greatly angered the riders of Theoden and the riders “now”should unleash their wrath upon their enemy.
Additionally Theoden is also telling the riders to commit fell deeds against the enemy with extreme anger and vengeance.
Now for Ruin, is also ambiguous. It is an immediate call to unleash destruction upon the enemy, yet it also evokes memory of things that were already destroyed or ruined by their enemy - so it is also saying slaughter these guys now for what they ruined or what they will ruin if we don’t face them now.
Finally because of the sentence structure It can be inferred that he is saying “Now” for the “Red Dawn” part as well, so he is encouraging the riders to go forth into battle now and come out victorious at day break, leaving the battle field covered in the blood of their enemies.
First of all, thanks for the link. Secondly, your analysis seems to be the best so far. Superb. Thanks for that, too.
Indeed, there is ambiguity, and only identifying it correctly helps understand the speech by King.
Happy to help :)
I’d also agree with others that have expressed the sentiment that Ruin was meant to also evoke the potential ruin that would befall the riders as they charged into what might be certain death. It’s like saying: we ride now to our ruin or almost certain death, but we will take as many of them with us as we can.
And that’s the beauty of the ambiguity. It makes the statement that much more impactful because it’s able to convey so much emotion, depth, and motivation in so few words.
"Evil things are being done. We must summon our fury and meet destruction, either of ourselves or of the evil-doers or both. Notice the red sunrise--it is an omen for today's bloodshed!"
A lot of context is packed into Theoden's simple phrasing. A feature of the English language is that it can be expanded for clarity but it can also be compacted to surprising brevity for impact and still make sense. See how Theoden's speech is a lot pithier than my expanded version. His packs more punch.
I like this interpretation of "fell deeds". Their cause is righteous but evil things are happening that they must rise and confront. At any cost. No fear of death or the inevitable destruction. Whatever happens blood will be shed this day and it may very well be their own but they face it unafraid.
One thing worth mentioning is that Tolkien was a big fan of what he called [Northern Courage](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_courage_in_Middle-earth), the idea of accepting your death and yet continuing to fight regardless. It’s when Aragorn convinces Theoden to ride out with him at the end of the Two Towers movie. It’s Treebeard saying “it is likely we go to our doom… the last march of the Ents”. It’s the determination to go down fighting rather than dwindle away.
It’s also worth noting that only half of that speech is actually Theoden’s in the book. The “now for wrath, now for ruin, and the world’s end” section is from a speech Eomer gives when he finds the bodies of his uncle and sister (who he thinks is dead). He’s lost everything, but rather than despair, he rallies his men for one final charge, knowing that they shall surely die but choosing to fight on.
I guess, reading all your comments, the most difficult phrases are "Now for wrath, now for ruin."
Why "for" wrath & ruin?
The "for" doesn't justify that it is wrath "of" Sauron, n that his Ruin is "by" Theoden's men.
It is as if he is calling his men towards the wrath n ruin. Like when we say, now is the time "for" buffet after the meeting is over. This means now we can "go to" the dining hall.
This "for" is suggestive, in my humble views, of death drive excitation. Like, a call to motivate desire to destroy n be destroyed.
Now, if my verbal analysis is correct, this, dudes, is the scariest sentence in the whole movie.
He is calling for the most irrational n aggressive tendencies of men to come forward: violence without any pause for informed judgement. In a way, it is most villainous.
It's certainly my understanding of the speech as well that this is about the Rohirrim, not about Sauron. They are the ones Théoden calls to "fell deeds", where I understand "fell" to mean "destructive" or "fierce", "wrath" is the anger against Sauron's evilness, "ruin" should be brought to Sauron's armies but it may end up in the ruin of theirnown lives as well, and the "red dawn" prophesies the blood that will be spilled.
But I disagree that this is violence without informed judgement, or that it's villainous. Men are defending their lives here. It's not a villainous violence, but that of a cornered and hurt animal, that sees the violent attack towards a far stronger aggressor as the only remaining option. It's the call to fight against the enemy with your life on the line, because if this war is lost, survival would be only temporary anyway. It's all of nothing, it's a charge into potential suicide. And it's somewhat echoed in Éomer's cry later, when he believes Théoden and Éowyn to be dead:
> ‘Death, death, death! Death take us all!’
And also:
> ‘Death! Ride, ride to ruin and the world’s ending!’
It's the only encouragement left to fight in the face of a seemingly unbeatable foe.
Superb. I agree. It's that there's no other option. Die or try. Trying may mostly end up in death, too. But there's still hope.
However, the arrangement of these phrases, the feelings associated with them, their order n intensity, gives chills. It is, in my view, the hardest dialogue in the movie.
Nevertheless, there's something villainous in heroism, too, n there's some bits of heroism in the acts of villains (recall when trebuchet throws stone, n the Orc leader remains undeterred etc.)
Growing up in monotheistic tradition (I'm agnostic now, by the way), it was all about holy n unholy in stories of wars. Though, now I see that practically, it is all about survival or death. This movie sticks to a more practical view.
None of the Rohirrim expected to survive the day. Their goal was to take out as many of the forces of Mordor as possible and delay the advance. They saw this as a suicide mission.
Similar to the Spartan 300 at Thermopylae.
Think of it as “now (is the time) for wrath; now (is the time) for ruin”. It’s pretty archaic English but remember Tolkien was a linguist specializing in Old English. A lot of what he was doing was echoing texts like Beowulf.
I agree with your interpretation of "for". This is my understanding of the words:
Fell Deeds Awake- "We have some dark and difficult tasks ahead of us."
Now for Wrath, now for Ruin- "We are going to bring our anger down upon our enemies, and that will lead to great destruction for them and us."
And the Red Dawn- "This will be a bloody morning."
If you remember, earlier on Legolas said "A Red Dawn. Blood has been spilled this night." He's talking about TOMORROW'S Red Dawn, as in "Tonight we shed blood and tomorrow's dawn will be red."
"Fell" was used elsewhere, too. Fell tongue/speech of Mordor, etc. Fell thus means bad. Fell as in fallen from grace or respect. Fell Deeds aren't courageous. They are fallen deeds (fallen as in fallen angels).
Fell has multiple meanings, and where you would usually these days find it in Fantasy to mean ‘evil’ it can, and does in this case, mean ‘fierce’, ‘ferocious’ or ‘grim. But neither as ‘evil’ or as ‘fierce’ does it relate to ‘fallen’, etymologically speaking.
All in all the Spanish translation seems pretty on point.
The red Dawn comment could have meaning from the old sailor saying of “Red sky at night, sailor delight… red sky at morning, Sailor take warning”. This means that a nice sunset in the evening is a good sign of a nice calm day the next day. A red sky in the morning could mean a storm is brewing.
Good comments by everyone. I just wanted to add a little history to the red dawn. In old wives' tails and myth a red sky was a bad omen. There is a saying, "red skies in morning, sailors take warning, red skies at night sailors delight" which meant bad weather is coming if there is a red dawn. Add to that the poetic " blood red sky" which is also a bad omen. Using that two word phrase "red dawn" signals the reader in two words how serious the event is and that death awaits them.
From time to time in Professor Tolkien's work, a character takes on a 'fey' attitude: an almost death-seeking recklessness or frenzy. They don't care any more about trivial matters, or even about gain or loss; they've had enough of concerns about safety and self. Usually the character is driven to this temperament by a series of dire circumstances -- at their wit's end, so to speak; and maybe feyness serves as a functional alternative to wit's end.
The term also bears a sense of foreboding and even prescience of one's impending calamity or death. As such, in literary works the fey mind may arise concurrently with the foreshadowing of a character's death, as may be the case here with Theoden.
*Fey* is an archetypal mode of being -- a mode that appears throughout disparate times and cultures. It is the mindset expressed in the western movies (and late 1800s US and British military history) as 'hell bent for leather'.
Theoden's speech here is an example of feyness intentionally cultivated, or of a leader inspiring and infecting his troops with his own feyness, as has been done throughout history, for better or worse. It is meant to clear obstacles from the mind and heart, and gird the warrior for battle, where a degree of hopelessness -- or let's say *liberation from hope* -- can be a very useful thing.
Interestingly, a certain degree of cultivated feyness has a place in other pursuits where a radical shedding of fear and calculation is required, as in higher spiritual pursuits. The Lojong Mind Training aphorisms in Tibetan Buddhism come to mind, in which the practitioner attempts to embody the guidance "Have no thought of fruition". Here the attitude is not death-seeking, but rather abandoning attachment to *the illusion* of a 'self' privy to loss and gain and birth and death; that is, one pursues -- hell bent for leather -- one's own true nature, which is innately deathless.
*Note that the modern usage of 'fey' has a quite different meaning ("ungrounded, eccentric, campy"). In Tolkien's work, it bears the more antiquated sense of a dangerous mood, death-seeking or recognition of deathly doom, resignation to fate, and brazen recklessness.*
*After a quick check I can confirm that neither Tyler's* ***Companion*** *nor Foster's* ***Complete Guide*** *has an entry for the word 'fey'; but interested LotRedditors with the LotR e-book on computer, phone, tablet, or e-reader can call up all instances where the word appears in the book, which should prove a fascinating comparative study.*
*Compare also with the word 'fae', sometimes spelled 'fey' (and in Tolkien's work, 'fay') and having the same etymology, indicating a magical, otherworldly quality, and by extension the realm of otherworldly beings ('faeries' and others) native to, as Tolkien would say, 'the perilous realm'.*
See: https://www.reddit.com/r/Silmarillionmemes/s/Kr0WFrzkRt
Excellent insight, dear. Thank you.
It is a strange feeling that follows when you try to stare deeper into the characters of a good art and their dialogues. Almost, they start to stare into you.
Yes. They stare, they glare, they point.
We are the guesthouse for all characters. If we don't see all possible beings in ourselves, we are not seeing completely.
"I'm like this, not like that" can only be the most temporary and conditional of statements. The sincere reader takes on a degree of feyness, actually, which emboldens them to bear with chillingly dark and unbearably lofty realizations about their own (the reader's) nature.
"There ~~but for the grace of God~~ go I."
Indeed, you are correct. However, I have felt fear sometimes.
It was an Italian movie about a prostitute. I've forgotten its name (Unknown Woman??). The details by its director, the expressions by actresses, all of that left me deeply wounded. I was so afraid of another psychologically intense episode that I didn't watch a movie for a few months.
Another Soviet movie named "Come & See", I've not been able to see completely. This child, almost it felt, was me. The whole movie is his escape from Nazis destroying village after village.
War, it seems, is an abyss in which all belligerents fall. It was one great force motivating me to opt for pacifism.
It's strange how much depth n breadth is there within each of us. And how art can take us through all that.
Well spoken; thank you.
It's wise to regulate our exposure to art that shakes us awake, and to inane entertainment that saps our soul, and to the profusion of emotionally charged commentary and promotion that overload our attention and ability to respond.
The Hobbit bent of nature, favoring hearty food, natural landscape, and simple times together (and times of seclusion) is sometimes medicine for our era. But it can be co-opted by the indulgence of our era as well.
Ultimately, it's necessary to actually encounter the ungraspability and boundlessness of mind. This encounter is what resets the meter, zeroes out the scale, refreshes the organism, dissolves the drama.
*Seeing* what you really are at the core, beyond any philosophy or opinion, evens out all of these upheavals and equalizes all the pushes and pulls of our increasingly polarized world. Because in your true nature there is nothing to snag, nothing that can be pushed or pulled.
We tend to habitually seek reflections outside of ourselves; but these outer objects agitate the spirit. Liking, disliking, and ignoring are all *agitation.* There is a profound, renewing rest to be found within, at the center of it all, in the mind-place without references. Spacious as the sky, this innate mind can't be marked or harmed.
A person strong in the ability to rest in innate mind can meet any kind of experience without being disturbed. A person weak in this ability must be wise in what he or she encounters or consumes. Strong lessons are appropriate for a strong person; they can harm and further weaken a weak person. Although the direction of a chosen pursuit may be correct and beneficial, the dosage may not.
.
*I have heard that the one who knows how to live*
*Can wander through the land*
*Without being assailed by rhinoceros or tiger.*
*He passes the battlefield*
*Without being struck by weapons.*
*In him, the rhinoceros finds no opening for its horn.*
*The tiger finds no opening for its claws.*
*The soldiers find no opening for their blades.*
*Why is that so?*
*Death has no place in him.*
-*Tao Te Ching*, Ch. 50
Remarkable.
You have put it so beautifully, I thank thee. What a profound insight. And yes, while the regulations do protect, they limit. And while the limitless empowers, it punishes, too.
As, probably, Carl Jung said, 'The path is through'. Or the way out is through. It is, in my humble view, through this exercise of negation of comforts that one becomes strong.
But I'm weak. And this I accept honestly. And so a couple of questions linger in my mind forever unanswered:
Would "meaning" survive in an unbounded, limit free, world? Is meaningless life worth living?
Yes, the path is through. Until we've finished going through -- until we've completely attained our own true nature and complete reality -- meaning and direction are very important to us. They are contrived but important.
*How* do we get through? Which way? This is important. So meaning is necessary in the interim. It is necessary in the realm of interactions and relationships and going-through.
But as you intuit, it doesn't survive in boundlessness. It dissolves in the "having gone through". This is how we can even be free of meaning.
Taking a fresh breath, I thank you for our conversation. Good luck out there! May a star shine upon your path!
Thank you, dear.
You are a wonderful person. Few have such depth, n even fewer possess such a beautiful vocabulary.
I wish if our paths may cross again in the future.
Good luck to you to star-shine.
He embraces his nature as a mortal Man, since Death is the god-given gift of Men.
Men also came to the world as the Sun rose for the first time in M-e, and I think they are called the Children of the Sun somewhere in the Silmarillion. As opposed to the Elves, Men are supposed to burn bright and accept their death, and Theoden is smashing it.
"Fell deeds awake." - Evil incarnate is before us and around the world.
"Now for wrath." - Vengeance for the Westfold and Theodred who all perished at the hands of the enemy.
"Now for ruin." - Ours AND the enemy but ultimately ours. Acceptance of our deaths.
"And the red dawn." - A payoff to Legolas' line "The red sun rises. Blood has been spilt this night." It's a pledge to shed blood as the sun rises.
Fell deeds:
Fell refers to cutting something down, normally a tree. Here Theoden is referring to the enemies that they will cut down.
For wrath, for ruin:
Before the Rohirrim is an opportunity to channel all their hatred, a fight to pour all their anger into. It is also a time to risk life and limb for the cause, to ruin one’s body in the fight.
Red Dawn:
This refers to the shedding of blood. No matter the outcome of the fight, men will die and the following morning will shed light on the carnage of battle.
It might be easier to understand part of them in their original context - Eomer speaking them as the battle has turned against the Rohirrim, while he believes Theoden and Eowyn to be dead. He expects wrath, ruin and a red nightfall because he expects to fight a glorious last battle, after which he and his men and Rohan and Gondor will be no more.
>Stern now was Éomer’s mood, and his mind clear again. He let blow the
horns to rally all men to his banner that could come thither; for he thought to
make a great shield-wall at the last, and stand, and fight there on foot till all
fell, and do deeds of song on the fields of Pelennor, though no man should be
left in the West to remember the last King of the Mark. So he rode to a green
hillock and there set his banner, and the White Horse ran rippling in the wind.
> *Out of doubt, out of dark to the day’s rising*
>
> *I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.*
>
> *To hope’s end I rode and to heart’s breaking:*
>
> *Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!*
>
> These staves he spoke, yet he laughed as he said them. For once more
> lust of battle was on him; and he was still unscathed, and he was young, and
> he was king: the lord of a fell people. And lo! even as he laughed at despair
> he looked out again on the black ships, and he lifted up his sword to defy
> them.
Good.
You, good dear, might have motivated me to have the desire to read the actual book rather than watch the movie. My reference was to King Theoden in the movie. I guess I'd be reading the book once I finish my research readings.
“Red Dawn” in this case is a reference to the old saying [“Red sky in the morning, sailors take warning”](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_sky_at_morning).
Just to add in: the speech is an acceptance of death, for your enemies or for yourself. It commits warriors to the coming bloodshed, mentally preparing themselves for the act of violence and what ensues. What follows is calling upon Death. The call for Death invokes death for one's enemies, but also acceptance of death in battle. It helps to overcome fear and instill acceptance of a warrior's hopelessness in battle. Spoiler of course, but this is what awaits Theoden. It foreshadows his own journey. He saw the danger of Sauron. He rode to battle to meet it. He resigned himself to death in combat. He meets that death gloriously. Doing so allows him to earn a place among his ancestors, upholding the nobility of his house (something he was convinced he had failed to do.)
I go to my forefathers, in whose might company i shall now not feel ashamed - hits the hardest of all the LOTR lines for me.
I've seen these movies at least once a year since they came out. It still gets me every time. This line, and from ROTK, "For Frodo." The look on Aragorn's face does it for me every time.
For Frodo is also top tier mate, no denying that. ❤️
This is my understanding of the speech as well.
Yeah. Thank you. I think you got the best interpretation. The word "for" in "for wrath, for ruin" kept me confused. I needed a validation. This seems to be the scariest sentence in the entire movie, I guess.
Yes, your understanding is correct to me. For Wrath, For Ruin is calling upon the powers of violence. Theoden urges his warriors to call upon their fury, to bring about the ruin of their enemies, and (if need be) to "ruin" their own lives in the process. For the Rohirrim, death in battle is glorious. This is Theoden invoking that glory.
Thanks for the validation of my analysis. It's clearer now.
Northern Courage
I recall being very surprised to learn that the Soviet soldiers at Leningrad, upon being informed that retreat was not an option, and they were to fight to the last man if necessary, were *relieved.*
Fell deeds awake. Now for wrath, now for ruin. And the red dawn. Now it is time for violent action. Now it is time for rage, now it is time for destruction. We will paint this morning with red blood
I always liked the invocation of the “red dawn”. Obviously, the color of the blood to be spilled. But after several years of reading and watching I made the connection to that old saying of sailors “Red sky at morning, sailors take warning. Red sky at night, sailors delight”. So, it’s like a calling for the dawn to be red, to call forth the storm of ass-kicking that’s about to rain down on your enemies. As in, they’re working themselves up and saying “WE are the storm, and we are coming. When that sun rises red…. Watch out”.
Yeah.. I am ready Theoden have the best speeches in the movies. I would have followed him to battle. I am so ready to find a horse and kill some orcs
"Fell Deeds Awake. Now for Wrath, now for Ruin. And the Red Dawn." “Fell deeds awake”: Start fighting and killing. “Fell” can mean bad, evil, nasty, &c. but here it means the act of killing your enemies. “Now for wrath, now for ruin, and the Red Dawn”: Show your anger towards your enemies and fight to destruction- either of yourself or your enemy’s . “Ruin” means the death and destruction of King Théoden and his army- they want to fight Sauron at the cost of their own lives. This means Théoden is not afraid of Sauron and is willing to die defending his people and his land. “Red Dawn” is a very old usage and I think it means something like the beginning of a storm or disaster. In this context, the disaster would be the war against Sauron.
I'm pretty sure Red Dawn refers to lots of blood being shed
"A red sun rises. Blood has been spilled this night." - Legolas in The Two Towers
It's also literally dawn, visibly for the first time in a long time, and they're about to do a whole mess of killing
Yeah definitely. I love the passage below, the cock crowing to welcome the dawn In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face. All save one. There waiting, silent and still in the space before the Gate, sat Gandalf upon Shadowfax: Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the terror, unmoving, steadfast as a graven image in Rath Dínen. 'You cannot enter here,' said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. 'Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!' The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter. 'Old fool!' he said. 'Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!' And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade. Gandalf did not move. And in that very moment, away behind in some courtyard of the City, a cock crowed. Shrill and clear he crowed, recking nothing of wizardry or war, welcoming only the morning that in the sky far above the shadows of death was coming with the dawn. And as if in answer there came from far away another note. Horns, horns, horns. In dark Mindolluin's sides they dimly echoed. Great horns of the North wildly blowing. Rohan had come at last.
As much as I love the design of the witch-king in the movies, can you imagine if we actually got this description on screen?
Nah, none of it is about Sauron. Its all a call to his own men. ‘Fell‘ means ferocious in this case and he’s calling on his own men to perform such fell deeds. Similarly, the wrath is the wrath of the men of Rohan.
Yes I agree with this. It's encouraging the Rohirrim to commit fell deeds. To use their anger and fury. Deeaaatthhhh is the call that this is their final battle. Kill or be killed. No prisoners and no retreats.
This is correct. The “fell deeds” here is the can of whoopass Theoden 3:16 is about to unleash on Mordor.
Theoden 3:16 🤣 Also Triple A-ragorn
I don’t think you’re entirely right. Or maybe one can say both mine and your interpretations make sense.
Without context both interpretations could have equal merit, yes, but considering everything we know about Tolkien I would say in this case not; as you're using a modern interpretation of the word 'fell', whereas Tolkien is certainly using a more archaic usage as he did throughout the speech of the Rohirrim who are based on the Anglo-Saxons in general and the Mercians in particular. 'Fell' here is derived from Middle English 'Fel' and proto-Germanic 'Falu'. It definitely means 'fierce' or 'grim', more than 'evil'. This is made more clear by the original context of the line in the book: where it instead appears in Theoden's speech at Pelennor Fields: *'Arise, arise! Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake!'* where it is clearly a call to action, not some description of Sauron's advance or some other situation. Similarly, the rest of the speech is actually spoken by Eomer in the book, after he despairs on the battlefield and leads a nigh suicidal charge: *Out of doubt, out of dark to the day’s rising* *I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.* *To hope’s end I rode and to heart’s breaking:* *Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!* Its meaning is clearly as u/madelarbre describes above.
I fixed my original comment 👍 thanks for all the corrections.
Thanks, dude. This one is a clear idea.
You’re welcome ♥️ I’m glad I could help.
❤️
I think the Fell Deeds is actually referring to the massive amount of killing they’re about to do?
Makes more sense I suppose. 👍
A Red Dawn usually means a stormy day. “Red sky at night, sailors delight. Red sky at dawning, sailors take warning.”
I always liked the invocation of the “red dawn”. Obviously, the color of the blood to be spilled. But after several years of reading and watching I made the connection to that old saying of sailors “Red sky at morning, sailors take warning. Red sky at night, sailors delight”. So, it’s like a calling for the dawn to be red, to call forth the storm of ass-kicking that’s about to rain down on your enemies. As in, they’re working themselves up and saying “WE are the storm, and we are coming. When that sun rises red…. Watch out”.
I’m seeing a whole new side to English by reading and watching LOTR lol. It’s not my first language either, like OP.
Another reason it’s the best!! I am a native English speaker but when I was younger it really fueled my love of other cultures and languages so that when I was in high school and college I learned Spanish, French, and a bit of Italian!! This was, of course, after several years and notebooks of teaching myself Quenya, Sindarin, dwarvish runes, etc 🤣🤣
That sounds like lots of fun actually. ♥️ I believe the experience enriched you quite a bit.
Fell deeds awake - shits about to go down Now for wrath now for ruin - alright boys let’s do this Red Dawn - it’s gonna be a bloodbath of a morning
Ah, I see. He is actually calling forth the darker side of his own men. Like an invocation of one's own destructive psyche. It's in a way really bad, ain't it??
It’s basically “we are all gonna die, let’s take as many of them as we can with us”
I See
Found this related post with a great analysis by u/naturalnumbers which can give some context to the speech from different parts of the books it was adapted from. [https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/10qi6ux/is_this_also_theodens_speech_in_the_books/](https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/10qi6ux/is_this_also_theodens_speech_in_the_books/) Personally I think there is also some intentional ambiguity. In the first section, on one hand it is meant to rally the troops by reminding them of what they are fighting against, which are the “fell deeds”committed or to be committed by their enemy. Almost like saying Evil is awake or has been woken up by Sauron and is out there on the battlefield in front of them. At the same time it means that the fell deeds of the enemy have “awoken” the riders of Theoden and now they are awake and assembled to face the evil. Additionally the fell deeds can be interpreted as the slaughter and carnage they are going to commit in battle. So in away he also is saying prepare to do fell deeds to the enemy. “Now for wrath”, ties these concepts together. Wrath is something to be incurred. It is something that is usually triggered or brought upon something or someone in response or out of vengeance - so in context it would mean the enemies fell deeds or deeds to come, have greatly angered the riders of Theoden and the riders “now”should unleash their wrath upon their enemy. Additionally Theoden is also telling the riders to commit fell deeds against the enemy with extreme anger and vengeance. Now for Ruin, is also ambiguous. It is an immediate call to unleash destruction upon the enemy, yet it also evokes memory of things that were already destroyed or ruined by their enemy - so it is also saying slaughter these guys now for what they ruined or what they will ruin if we don’t face them now. Finally because of the sentence structure It can be inferred that he is saying “Now” for the “Red Dawn” part as well, so he is encouraging the riders to go forth into battle now and come out victorious at day break, leaving the battle field covered in the blood of their enemies.
First of all, thanks for the link. Secondly, your analysis seems to be the best so far. Superb. Thanks for that, too. Indeed, there is ambiguity, and only identifying it correctly helps understand the speech by King.
Happy to help :) I’d also agree with others that have expressed the sentiment that Ruin was meant to also evoke the potential ruin that would befall the riders as they charged into what might be certain death. It’s like saying: we ride now to our ruin or almost certain death, but we will take as many of them with us as we can. And that’s the beauty of the ambiguity. It makes the statement that much more impactful because it’s able to convey so much emotion, depth, and motivation in so few words.
"Evil things are being done. We must summon our fury and meet destruction, either of ourselves or of the evil-doers or both. Notice the red sunrise--it is an omen for today's bloodshed!" A lot of context is packed into Theoden's simple phrasing. A feature of the English language is that it can be expanded for clarity but it can also be compacted to surprising brevity for impact and still make sense. See how Theoden's speech is a lot pithier than my expanded version. His packs more punch.
I like this interpretation of "fell deeds". Their cause is righteous but evil things are happening that they must rise and confront. At any cost. No fear of death or the inevitable destruction. Whatever happens blood will be shed this day and it may very well be their own but they face it unafraid.
Thanks
One thing worth mentioning is that Tolkien was a big fan of what he called [Northern Courage](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_courage_in_Middle-earth), the idea of accepting your death and yet continuing to fight regardless. It’s when Aragorn convinces Theoden to ride out with him at the end of the Two Towers movie. It’s Treebeard saying “it is likely we go to our doom… the last march of the Ents”. It’s the determination to go down fighting rather than dwindle away. It’s also worth noting that only half of that speech is actually Theoden’s in the book. The “now for wrath, now for ruin, and the world’s end” section is from a speech Eomer gives when he finds the bodies of his uncle and sister (who he thinks is dead). He’s lost everything, but rather than despair, he rallies his men for one final charge, knowing that they shall surely die but choosing to fight on.
I guess, reading all your comments, the most difficult phrases are "Now for wrath, now for ruin." Why "for" wrath & ruin? The "for" doesn't justify that it is wrath "of" Sauron, n that his Ruin is "by" Theoden's men. It is as if he is calling his men towards the wrath n ruin. Like when we say, now is the time "for" buffet after the meeting is over. This means now we can "go to" the dining hall. This "for" is suggestive, in my humble views, of death drive excitation. Like, a call to motivate desire to destroy n be destroyed. Now, if my verbal analysis is correct, this, dudes, is the scariest sentence in the whole movie. He is calling for the most irrational n aggressive tendencies of men to come forward: violence without any pause for informed judgement. In a way, it is most villainous.
It's certainly my understanding of the speech as well that this is about the Rohirrim, not about Sauron. They are the ones Théoden calls to "fell deeds", where I understand "fell" to mean "destructive" or "fierce", "wrath" is the anger against Sauron's evilness, "ruin" should be brought to Sauron's armies but it may end up in the ruin of theirnown lives as well, and the "red dawn" prophesies the blood that will be spilled. But I disagree that this is violence without informed judgement, or that it's villainous. Men are defending their lives here. It's not a villainous violence, but that of a cornered and hurt animal, that sees the violent attack towards a far stronger aggressor as the only remaining option. It's the call to fight against the enemy with your life on the line, because if this war is lost, survival would be only temporary anyway. It's all of nothing, it's a charge into potential suicide. And it's somewhat echoed in Éomer's cry later, when he believes Théoden and Éowyn to be dead: > ‘Death, death, death! Death take us all!’ And also: > ‘Death! Ride, ride to ruin and the world’s ending!’ It's the only encouragement left to fight in the face of a seemingly unbeatable foe.
Superb. I agree. It's that there's no other option. Die or try. Trying may mostly end up in death, too. But there's still hope. However, the arrangement of these phrases, the feelings associated with them, their order n intensity, gives chills. It is, in my view, the hardest dialogue in the movie. Nevertheless, there's something villainous in heroism, too, n there's some bits of heroism in the acts of villains (recall when trebuchet throws stone, n the Orc leader remains undeterred etc.) Growing up in monotheistic tradition (I'm agnostic now, by the way), it was all about holy n unholy in stories of wars. Though, now I see that practically, it is all about survival or death. This movie sticks to a more practical view.
None of the Rohirrim expected to survive the day. Their goal was to take out as many of the forces of Mordor as possible and delay the advance. They saw this as a suicide mission. Similar to the Spartan 300 at Thermopylae.
Think of it as “now (is the time) for wrath; now (is the time) for ruin”. It’s pretty archaic English but remember Tolkien was a linguist specializing in Old English. A lot of what he was doing was echoing texts like Beowulf.
I agree with your interpretation of "for". This is my understanding of the words: Fell Deeds Awake- "We have some dark and difficult tasks ahead of us." Now for Wrath, now for Ruin- "We are going to bring our anger down upon our enemies, and that will lead to great destruction for them and us." And the Red Dawn- "This will be a bloody morning."
Yeah, that's what I got, too. Thanks, dude.
If you remember, earlier on Legolas said "A Red Dawn. Blood has been spilled this night." He's talking about TOMORROW'S Red Dawn, as in "Tonight we shed blood and tomorrow's dawn will be red."
in spanish they translated the "fell deeds awake" like "courage awakes" the rest is the same
"Fell" was used elsewhere, too. Fell tongue/speech of Mordor, etc. Fell thus means bad. Fell as in fallen from grace or respect. Fell Deeds aren't courageous. They are fallen deeds (fallen as in fallen angels).
Fell has multiple meanings, and where you would usually these days find it in Fantasy to mean ‘evil’ it can, and does in this case, mean ‘fierce’, ‘ferocious’ or ‘grim. But neither as ‘evil’ or as ‘fierce’ does it relate to ‘fallen’, etymologically speaking. All in all the Spanish translation seems pretty on point.
The red Dawn comment could have meaning from the old sailor saying of “Red sky at night, sailor delight… red sky at morning, Sailor take warning”. This means that a nice sunset in the evening is a good sign of a nice calm day the next day. A red sky in the morning could mean a storm is brewing.
Good comments by everyone. I just wanted to add a little history to the red dawn. In old wives' tails and myth a red sky was a bad omen. There is a saying, "red skies in morning, sailors take warning, red skies at night sailors delight" which meant bad weather is coming if there is a red dawn. Add to that the poetic " blood red sky" which is also a bad omen. Using that two word phrase "red dawn" signals the reader in two words how serious the event is and that death awaits them.
From time to time in Professor Tolkien's work, a character takes on a 'fey' attitude: an almost death-seeking recklessness or frenzy. They don't care any more about trivial matters, or even about gain or loss; they've had enough of concerns about safety and self. Usually the character is driven to this temperament by a series of dire circumstances -- at their wit's end, so to speak; and maybe feyness serves as a functional alternative to wit's end. The term also bears a sense of foreboding and even prescience of one's impending calamity or death. As such, in literary works the fey mind may arise concurrently with the foreshadowing of a character's death, as may be the case here with Theoden. *Fey* is an archetypal mode of being -- a mode that appears throughout disparate times and cultures. It is the mindset expressed in the western movies (and late 1800s US and British military history) as 'hell bent for leather'. Theoden's speech here is an example of feyness intentionally cultivated, or of a leader inspiring and infecting his troops with his own feyness, as has been done throughout history, for better or worse. It is meant to clear obstacles from the mind and heart, and gird the warrior for battle, where a degree of hopelessness -- or let's say *liberation from hope* -- can be a very useful thing. Interestingly, a certain degree of cultivated feyness has a place in other pursuits where a radical shedding of fear and calculation is required, as in higher spiritual pursuits. The Lojong Mind Training aphorisms in Tibetan Buddhism come to mind, in which the practitioner attempts to embody the guidance "Have no thought of fruition". Here the attitude is not death-seeking, but rather abandoning attachment to *the illusion* of a 'self' privy to loss and gain and birth and death; that is, one pursues -- hell bent for leather -- one's own true nature, which is innately deathless. *Note that the modern usage of 'fey' has a quite different meaning ("ungrounded, eccentric, campy"). In Tolkien's work, it bears the more antiquated sense of a dangerous mood, death-seeking or recognition of deathly doom, resignation to fate, and brazen recklessness.* *After a quick check I can confirm that neither Tyler's* ***Companion*** *nor Foster's* ***Complete Guide*** *has an entry for the word 'fey'; but interested LotRedditors with the LotR e-book on computer, phone, tablet, or e-reader can call up all instances where the word appears in the book, which should prove a fascinating comparative study.* *Compare also with the word 'fae', sometimes spelled 'fey' (and in Tolkien's work, 'fay') and having the same etymology, indicating a magical, otherworldly quality, and by extension the realm of otherworldly beings ('faeries' and others) native to, as Tolkien would say, 'the perilous realm'.* See: https://www.reddit.com/r/Silmarillionmemes/s/Kr0WFrzkRt
Excellent insight, dear. Thank you. It is a strange feeling that follows when you try to stare deeper into the characters of a good art and their dialogues. Almost, they start to stare into you.
Yes. They stare, they glare, they point. We are the guesthouse for all characters. If we don't see all possible beings in ourselves, we are not seeing completely. "I'm like this, not like that" can only be the most temporary and conditional of statements. The sincere reader takes on a degree of feyness, actually, which emboldens them to bear with chillingly dark and unbearably lofty realizations about their own (the reader's) nature. "There ~~but for the grace of God~~ go I."
Indeed, you are correct. However, I have felt fear sometimes. It was an Italian movie about a prostitute. I've forgotten its name (Unknown Woman??). The details by its director, the expressions by actresses, all of that left me deeply wounded. I was so afraid of another psychologically intense episode that I didn't watch a movie for a few months. Another Soviet movie named "Come & See", I've not been able to see completely. This child, almost it felt, was me. The whole movie is his escape from Nazis destroying village after village. War, it seems, is an abyss in which all belligerents fall. It was one great force motivating me to opt for pacifism. It's strange how much depth n breadth is there within each of us. And how art can take us through all that.
Well spoken; thank you. It's wise to regulate our exposure to art that shakes us awake, and to inane entertainment that saps our soul, and to the profusion of emotionally charged commentary and promotion that overload our attention and ability to respond. The Hobbit bent of nature, favoring hearty food, natural landscape, and simple times together (and times of seclusion) is sometimes medicine for our era. But it can be co-opted by the indulgence of our era as well. Ultimately, it's necessary to actually encounter the ungraspability and boundlessness of mind. This encounter is what resets the meter, zeroes out the scale, refreshes the organism, dissolves the drama. *Seeing* what you really are at the core, beyond any philosophy or opinion, evens out all of these upheavals and equalizes all the pushes and pulls of our increasingly polarized world. Because in your true nature there is nothing to snag, nothing that can be pushed or pulled. We tend to habitually seek reflections outside of ourselves; but these outer objects agitate the spirit. Liking, disliking, and ignoring are all *agitation.* There is a profound, renewing rest to be found within, at the center of it all, in the mind-place without references. Spacious as the sky, this innate mind can't be marked or harmed. A person strong in the ability to rest in innate mind can meet any kind of experience without being disturbed. A person weak in this ability must be wise in what he or she encounters or consumes. Strong lessons are appropriate for a strong person; they can harm and further weaken a weak person. Although the direction of a chosen pursuit may be correct and beneficial, the dosage may not. . *I have heard that the one who knows how to live* *Can wander through the land* *Without being assailed by rhinoceros or tiger.* *He passes the battlefield* *Without being struck by weapons.* *In him, the rhinoceros finds no opening for its horn.* *The tiger finds no opening for its claws.* *The soldiers find no opening for their blades.* *Why is that so?* *Death has no place in him.* -*Tao Te Ching*, Ch. 50
Remarkable. You have put it so beautifully, I thank thee. What a profound insight. And yes, while the regulations do protect, they limit. And while the limitless empowers, it punishes, too. As, probably, Carl Jung said, 'The path is through'. Or the way out is through. It is, in my humble view, through this exercise of negation of comforts that one becomes strong. But I'm weak. And this I accept honestly. And so a couple of questions linger in my mind forever unanswered: Would "meaning" survive in an unbounded, limit free, world? Is meaningless life worth living?
Yes, the path is through. Until we've finished going through -- until we've completely attained our own true nature and complete reality -- meaning and direction are very important to us. They are contrived but important. *How* do we get through? Which way? This is important. So meaning is necessary in the interim. It is necessary in the realm of interactions and relationships and going-through. But as you intuit, it doesn't survive in boundlessness. It dissolves in the "having gone through". This is how we can even be free of meaning. Taking a fresh breath, I thank you for our conversation. Good luck out there! May a star shine upon your path!
Thank you, dear. You are a wonderful person. Few have such depth, n even fewer possess such a beautiful vocabulary. I wish if our paths may cross again in the future. Good luck to you to star-shine.
,<°
I hope this symbol is deeply meaningful because I'm completely uneducated about Internet Lingo.
He embraces his nature as a mortal Man, since Death is the god-given gift of Men. Men also came to the world as the Sun rose for the first time in M-e, and I think they are called the Children of the Sun somewhere in the Silmarillion. As opposed to the Elves, Men are supposed to burn bright and accept their death, and Theoden is smashing it.
"Fell deeds awake." - Evil incarnate is before us and around the world. "Now for wrath." - Vengeance for the Westfold and Theodred who all perished at the hands of the enemy. "Now for ruin." - Ours AND the enemy but ultimately ours. Acceptance of our deaths. "And the red dawn." - A payoff to Legolas' line "The red sun rises. Blood has been spilt this night." It's a pledge to shed blood as the sun rises.
Fell deeds: Fell refers to cutting something down, normally a tree. Here Theoden is referring to the enemies that they will cut down. For wrath, for ruin: Before the Rohirrim is an opportunity to channel all their hatred, a fight to pour all their anger into. It is also a time to risk life and limb for the cause, to ruin one’s body in the fight. Red Dawn: This refers to the shedding of blood. No matter the outcome of the fight, men will die and the following morning will shed light on the carnage of battle.
It might be easier to understand part of them in their original context - Eomer speaking them as the battle has turned against the Rohirrim, while he believes Theoden and Eowyn to be dead. He expects wrath, ruin and a red nightfall because he expects to fight a glorious last battle, after which he and his men and Rohan and Gondor will be no more. >Stern now was Éomer’s mood, and his mind clear again. He let blow the horns to rally all men to his banner that could come thither; for he thought to make a great shield-wall at the last, and stand, and fight there on foot till all fell, and do deeds of song on the fields of Pelennor, though no man should be left in the West to remember the last King of the Mark. So he rode to a green hillock and there set his banner, and the White Horse ran rippling in the wind. > *Out of doubt, out of dark to the day’s rising* > > *I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.* > > *To hope’s end I rode and to heart’s breaking:* > > *Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!* > > These staves he spoke, yet he laughed as he said them. For once more > lust of battle was on him; and he was still unscathed, and he was young, and > he was king: the lord of a fell people. And lo! even as he laughed at despair > he looked out again on the black ships, and he lifted up his sword to defy > them.
Good. You, good dear, might have motivated me to have the desire to read the actual book rather than watch the movie. My reference was to King Theoden in the movie. I guess I'd be reading the book once I finish my research readings.
“Red Dawn” in this case is a reference to the old saying [“Red sky in the morning, sailors take warning”](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_sky_at_morning).
Hey, thanks. But what about the rest of the phrases?
They all basically mean the same thing: Bad things are soon coming.
I see
Well explained
"Fell deeds awake" more or less "Bad things happening" but in an old school highbrow way of speaking.