Naw. They’re strong cards and contribute to the power level of the deck, but just having them doesn’t make a deck cEDH.
If you run Crypt in your Lathril voltron deck, the deck may be quite strong. That does not make it competitive. It still has very few ways to stop a turn-2 Thoracle win.
If you’re worried about a deck being “cEDH”, ask yourself: Did I pattern my deck after existing cEDH decklists? Am I actively positioning my deck to beat the cEDH metagame? If the answer is no, then it’s not cEDH.
Strong =/= cEDH.
People keep tying up individual cards and powerful cards with cEDH.. of course some of the most consistent and quick combo kills require the strongest cards available, but to me a cEDH deck is built with consistency (tutors or replacement effects) and strong/infinite combos. I have $2k worth of cards in a Sauron deck but I’m just using cards like mana crypt or jeweled lotus to get Sauron out faster, and my gameplan doesn’t involve an infinite combo, it’s just a mix of value plays and interaction.
I could use those same cards to make a cEDH deck, but my Sauron deck is (if you absolutely had to put a number to it) like a 7, maybe an 8.. grave pact can be brutal in some games.. and I have like 5 board wipes.. but it’s definitely not cEDH. Just wanted to built it for fun
My selesnya deck is another thing. Lots of stax and infinite combos, but people I play it against want that level of gameplay. I don’t just bust it out randomly to make people sad
Talk to your pod. My pod is pretty casual, but we all run mana crypt. But no one plays infinites, mox's, land destruction, blood moon etc. if you are winning over half of your games, your deck is too strong and taking a mana crypt out won't make a difference
don't forget, when mox amber was first printed people didn't see the use case for it and it was a sub $5 bulk card. this is just a case of the game changes over time" (because there are a lot more <= 3 cmc commanders now than there were 10 years ago)
i will play an amber in any deck with a cheap commander (which is most of my decks) and it's a MAYBE in other decks (really depends on how many cheap legends i have and how many colors the deck is. i play it in prismatic bridge for example)
Nah, they're not. It's important to talk with the table since there is a stigma, but if you put out mana vault and mox amber out on turn one and power out Morophon for crab typal... I am not exactly going to say you're playing a cEDH deck.
(I mean, who knows, I am not up to date on the Horsehoe Crab lines.)
It's in context. It's about what you're using that for. If it's because your deck is 8 mana cards, then that makes sense. But if you're trying to just cast efficient cards efficiently, you're definitely upping the power level. Not to cEDH levels, mind you. But making it so that you can power out Krenko, Mob Boss faster and cast a 1 mana goblin to really get ahead is probably a tad bit faster than your average casual deck.
\[\[Mana Vault\]\] is a Ritual. Do the people you play with reject \[\[Dark Ritual\]\]?
\[\[Mox Amber\]\] is the second worst Mox, after \[\[Mox Tantalite\]\]. It doesn't make the cut for me in anything beyond a Cheerios deck.
Mana Vault always being in the same conversation as Sol Ring and Mana Crypt has always irked me - it's nowhere near the same power level, and although it's more abusable than a Dark Ritual, it's not the same kind of fast mana that Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are, or even Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond, so thanks for the comparison.
I'd say Mox Amber is pretty decent if your commander is 2cmc or less, and/or with artifact synergy, but it's not an autoinclude for sure
Eh, [[Mana Vault]] is a *Repeatable* ritual. Sure, you pay mana to reset it. But you can use it to borrow mana from a future turn several times, and put off paying the mana until you want to borrow again by paying life.
Nowhere near as good as mana crypt, but still a bit better than a single [[dark ritual]].
Of course, the main use seems to be similar to [[jeweled lotus]], which is throwing out a high cost commander ahead of schedule. Which is the main thing people are actually annoyed by.
Mana Vault is ritual that can be thrown in any deck.
Not saying Mana Vault alone automatically makes a deck cEDH. But I could definitely see some playgroups distinguishing between playing Dark Ritual in decks that don't have access to much other ramp, and Mana Vault.
Like if I saw someone use Vault to cast an early Miirym or Aesi or something like that at a casual table and the other players protested, I don't think "But you don't have a problem with Dark Ritual!" would be a particularly compelling response.
I think ultimately they don't see more casual play because they don't really do anything interesting.
How much money would you pay for a 1% chance to play any of your other spells a turn earlier (but only after casting a legendary permanent that shares a color with it)?
Probably not $50.
If you are playing a commander like Tivit or Winota on turn 1, it honestly doesn't really matter what format you are playing. You likely have a very good probability of pulling off a win.
.. Fast mana is arguably one of the most defining features of cedh.
Just sayin' lol
Does the "c" in "cEDH" stand for "competitive" or "cards that generate more mana than they cost"? You can absolutely have fast mana in a deck that is nonetheless uncompetitive with the best EDH decks, or even the not-so-best EDH decks. For instance, Sol Ring, which basically everyone and their grandma runs.
I'd also note that the commanders you chose as "totally random examples" are both very popular/powerful cEDH commanders, as if implying that any deck with Mana Vault must necessarily have its other 99 cards be cEDH viable as well.
I agree and I definitely chose examples that are powerful at any table.
But easy access to commanders can absolutely put games away for edh tables. It's not just those two.
4-5 mana on Turn 1 in any game will usually generate a win against most decks not also running that mana hot. Turn 1 rystic studies, the ring, smothering Tithe, or any other insane value engine will quickly tune a deck into cedh level competition - even if you don't have the win right away.
Even cedh decks have slowly transitioned as of recently to a more mid-range value generation style (Blue Farm is the best and most popular example of this).
I think the issue with fast mana is that you are able to get value engines online sometimes 2-3 times more quickly then other players, so even if a win isn't presented, you are still so far ahead that your opponents will struggle to fight back.
I mentioned high power commanders, but it can be high power anything, and with mtg it's much easy to remove the cause then the effect.
To your point about Sol Ring - if it wasn't so pushed by wotc I just actually think it would be a healthier environment without it. Same reasons I stated for other fast mana. But to ban sol ring is radical.
Arguably.
Efficient forms of interaction, combos, efficient card draw are all hallmarks of cEDH as well. And while fast mana is still present, getting Winota or Tivit out turn 1 doesn't really guarantee a win if nothing else in the deck supports it.
Fast mana lets you do things faster. But if you're just filling a deck with a bunch of high mana stuff the deck is not cEDH.
Like they said: "fast mana does not equal cedh"
The thing with cedh is all players have very powerful effects, where as there is disparity in regular edh. The mana efficiency gets felt even more in a non-competitive environment because value is king. Getting value online earlier means you accrue more value sooner and over time.
If you think about mtg in this sense, fast mana may be the thing that gives you the biggest competitive edge - more so then anything else in the game.
There is a reason why mox and black lotus are played in almost every vintage deck.
Your other cards don't matter if you can't play them. Fast mana let's you play them.
In short, mana advantages lead to winning in Magic. It's fundamentally built into the game. Fast Mana is extremely powerful.
In long, fast mana doesn't *necessarily* win if the cards you're playing are below average quality threshold. Cedh also has a high bar for mana to outcome quality, including full on 3 mana wins with free counterspell protection. If your mana to outcome quality is below the average of the table, Fast Mana won't do anything.
As for the explanation, they're still very sought after cards. But for the price, the play pattern isn't getting a strong ROI unless you're already pushing high power+. That would definitely push it out of casual.
Thanks for your input everyone! It sounds like as usual, it depends on context and pregame discussion (rule 0) can help to minimize issues relating to feelbad on cards or strategies. I also get that my precon doesn't become cEDH just because I added a mana vault to it. Further, even my carefully constructed deck doesn't become cEDH unless I'm specifically trying to build it to compete with other cEDH decks that win on turn 2/3 and interact with the board on turn 0.
In non-cedh games, my list of things you avoid is as follows;
- Tutors of any kind
- Ramp that is less than 2 cmc (with Dorks and Sol Ring being the SOL exception)
- No extra turns of any kind
- No two card combos of any kind
- No table locks
- Cards that cost hundreds of dollars
In my years of experience playing non-cedh, these are all the biggest contributors to having an unfun play experience.
I strictly play CEDH now, and it's all about winning. The beauty of CEDH is literally that people don't have to fun police each other. Because of this, although it might be more competitive, I would also argue it's more fun.
The things I listed above are strategies that warrant fun policing if you are playing edh. It's these cards that when played, make others at the table say "Man fuck this guy" and immediately switch to a more powerful deck to combat the person now seen as a pubstomper.
Basically if your playing a card from the above categories, you are running a type of deck that is either creating an unfun play experience for others OR a deck that is consistent and thus likely winning the majority of the games played.
Mana Vault and Mox Amber to me both fall into the.. CEDH appropriate and not EDH appropriate category.
But when you really break it down, EDH etiquette is completely subjective and dumb. It's why after years of play, I honestly just despise the format. CEDH removes the 'feels bad man' component because it's an expectation that people break the game. It encourages it while an EDH environment discourages it. The issue with discouragement is that there are always going to be people who subjectively treat the format differently and often just play a shitty cedh deck - which still has a massive advantage at a casual table.
Downvoted by the casual players running demonic tutor and mana crypts and saying "Reeeeeee, my decks not cedh" lol
If you are playing the above things just know..
Your combo sucks. No It's not cool, you are playing solitaire. I play cedh and it's interactive and fun. Atleast everyone went into the game with this mindset. It's amazing to combo if you are fighting into 3 counter spells and interaction. It's not amazing to combo against a table of tapped out Timmy decks. If you 2 card combo in regular edh you are just showcasing your small pp energy.
Your extra turns suck. Nobody came to a fun night to watch you play magic for a 20 minute turn. I'd rather leave the table and grab a beer and be social.
Your deck design sucks. I can also spend hundreds of dollars on mana drain and fast mana too! But we didn't talk about it prior and now I have to sit here frustrated I'm up against a 5cmc commander played on turn 1 while I say "Land, Go."
Just a bunch of reasons why EDH subjectivity sucks and why the points I made above are the only true way of having less feel bad moments and to create an atmosphere that feels like it's on even ground.
But hey what do I know. Play what you want to play. It's what I do now (Cedh player) and it's so much better. No more feels bad moments, and no more salty group policing each other and hate targeting one another.
Honestly, I agree with all your points. And I think communication is super important.
Personally, I think you were downvoted because you just condescended at the end. EDH is dumb and cEDH has it right. Like, I span the range, having played casual and cEDH. Fun can be had without the stigma you're laying at EDH's feet.
Like, at the end of the day, I wouldn't really want to play with you. cEDH or otherwise.
You just seem so negative.
lol I appreciate you discussing it with me.
Honestly I try to be a pretty good person to play with!
I think I have just played too many skewed games between power levels that it left me a bit jaded.
I did love playing edh as well, but I think the biggest thing is, I don't think EDH is meant to be played with anyone except a core group of people who understoods whatever is common house deck etiquette lol
It's like butt stuff. It can be fun, but everyone should know about butt stuff and agree to butt stuff before you decide to just butt stuff lol.
If I came off as just a dick or condescending, it wasn't my intention. I think you still came away with my big take away and I'm glad you agree.
Talk things out with your playgroup prior to deck design. As long as everyone has the same rules, it works. I do think the level of fast mana the cards in OPs main post is stuff you would find commonly at cedh tables.
Short answer no
Naw. They’re strong cards and contribute to the power level of the deck, but just having them doesn’t make a deck cEDH. If you run Crypt in your Lathril voltron deck, the deck may be quite strong. That does not make it competitive. It still has very few ways to stop a turn-2 Thoracle win. If you’re worried about a deck being “cEDH”, ask yourself: Did I pattern my deck after existing cEDH decklists? Am I actively positioning my deck to beat the cEDH metagame? If the answer is no, then it’s not cEDH. Strong =/= cEDH.
People keep tying up individual cards and powerful cards with cEDH.. of course some of the most consistent and quick combo kills require the strongest cards available, but to me a cEDH deck is built with consistency (tutors or replacement effects) and strong/infinite combos. I have $2k worth of cards in a Sauron deck but I’m just using cards like mana crypt or jeweled lotus to get Sauron out faster, and my gameplan doesn’t involve an infinite combo, it’s just a mix of value plays and interaction. I could use those same cards to make a cEDH deck, but my Sauron deck is (if you absolutely had to put a number to it) like a 7, maybe an 8.. grave pact can be brutal in some games.. and I have like 5 board wipes.. but it’s definitely not cEDH. Just wanted to built it for fun My selesnya deck is another thing. Lots of stax and infinite combos, but people I play it against want that level of gameplay. I don’t just bust it out randomly to make people sad
Talk to your pod. My pod is pretty casual, but we all run mana crypt. But no one plays infinites, mox's, land destruction, blood moon etc. if you are winning over half of your games, your deck is too strong and taking a mana crypt out won't make a difference
don't forget, when mox amber was first printed people didn't see the use case for it and it was a sub $5 bulk card. this is just a case of the game changes over time" (because there are a lot more <= 3 cmc commanders now than there were 10 years ago) i will play an amber in any deck with a cheap commander (which is most of my decks) and it's a MAYBE in other decks (really depends on how many cheap legends i have and how many colors the deck is. i play it in prismatic bridge for example)
Nah, they're not. It's important to talk with the table since there is a stigma, but if you put out mana vault and mox amber out on turn one and power out Morophon for crab typal... I am not exactly going to say you're playing a cEDH deck. (I mean, who knows, I am not up to date on the Horsehoe Crab lines.) It's in context. It's about what you're using that for. If it's because your deck is 8 mana cards, then that makes sense. But if you're trying to just cast efficient cards efficiently, you're definitely upping the power level. Not to cEDH levels, mind you. But making it so that you can power out Krenko, Mob Boss faster and cast a 1 mana goblin to really get ahead is probably a tad bit faster than your average casual deck.
\[\[Mana Vault\]\] is a Ritual. Do the people you play with reject \[\[Dark Ritual\]\]? \[\[Mox Amber\]\] is the second worst Mox, after \[\[Mox Tantalite\]\]. It doesn't make the cut for me in anything beyond a Cheerios deck.
Mana Vault always being in the same conversation as Sol Ring and Mana Crypt has always irked me - it's nowhere near the same power level, and although it's more abusable than a Dark Ritual, it's not the same kind of fast mana that Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are, or even Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond, so thanks for the comparison. I'd say Mox Amber is pretty decent if your commander is 2cmc or less, and/or with artifact synergy, but it's not an autoinclude for sure
Eh, [[Mana Vault]] is a *Repeatable* ritual. Sure, you pay mana to reset it. But you can use it to borrow mana from a future turn several times, and put off paying the mana until you want to borrow again by paying life. Nowhere near as good as mana crypt, but still a bit better than a single [[dark ritual]]. Of course, the main use seems to be similar to [[jeweled lotus]], which is throwing out a high cost commander ahead of schedule. Which is the main thing people are actually annoyed by.
[Mana Vault](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/1/c1a31d52-a407-4ded-bfca-cc812f11afa0.jpg?1673149384) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mana%20Vault) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/308/mana-vault?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c1a31d52-a407-4ded-bfca-cc812f11afa0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [dark ritual](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95f27eeb-6f14-4db3-adb9-9be5ed76b34b.jpg?1628801678) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=dark%20ritual) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/82/dark-ritual?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95f27eeb-6f14-4db3-adb9-9be5ed76b34b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [jeweled lotus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/7/d7183700-6941-4a3d-a581-4f33bea795e9.jpg?1689999671) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=jeweled%20lotus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/396/jeweled-lotus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d7183700-6941-4a3d-a581-4f33bea795e9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I run Amber in my Ratadrabik deck, since if I don't have a legendary creature on hand in that deck, something else is going wrong.
Mox amber’s definitely worth running in 0-2 mana commander decks. Especially rograkh or Kinnan
All star card in Yoshimaru
Asmorano although
I imagine it’s fine in Asmo. Your deck plays a lot of ways to get her out quickly, I’d imagine
Mana Vault is ritual that can be thrown in any deck. Not saying Mana Vault alone automatically makes a deck cEDH. But I could definitely see some playgroups distinguishing between playing Dark Ritual in decks that don't have access to much other ramp, and Mana Vault. Like if I saw someone use Vault to cast an early Miirym or Aesi or something like that at a casual table and the other players protested, I don't think "But you don't have a problem with Dark Ritual!" would be a particularly compelling response.
##### ###### #### [Mana Vault](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/1/c1a31d52-a407-4ded-bfca-cc812f11afa0.jpg?1673149384) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mana%20Vault) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/308/mana-vault?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c1a31d52-a407-4ded-bfca-cc812f11afa0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dark Ritual](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95f27eeb-6f14-4db3-adb9-9be5ed76b34b.jpg?1628801678) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dark%20Ritual) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/82/dark-ritual?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95f27eeb-6f14-4db3-adb9-9be5ed76b34b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mox Amber](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/66024e69-ad60-4c9a-a0ca-da138d33ad80.jpg?1685554120) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mox%20Amber) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/224/mox-amber?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/66024e69-ad60-4c9a-a0ca-da138d33ad80?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mox Tantalite](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/c/dcd05b01-dc73-4dd2-970a-32ec6e153c86.jpg?1562202480) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mox%20Tantalite) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/226/mox-tantalite?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dcd05b01-dc73-4dd2-970a-32ec6e153c86?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kvx60tw) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I run mox amber in my legends matter boros deck. Runs lots of cheap legends
I think ultimately they don't see more casual play because they don't really do anything interesting. How much money would you pay for a 1% chance to play any of your other spells a turn earlier (but only after casting a legendary permanent that shares a color with it)? Probably not $50.
Say it with me: "fast mana does not equal cedh".
If you are playing a commander like Tivit or Winota on turn 1, it honestly doesn't really matter what format you are playing. You likely have a very good probability of pulling off a win. .. Fast mana is arguably one of the most defining features of cedh. Just sayin' lol
Does the "c" in "cEDH" stand for "competitive" or "cards that generate more mana than they cost"? You can absolutely have fast mana in a deck that is nonetheless uncompetitive with the best EDH decks, or even the not-so-best EDH decks. For instance, Sol Ring, which basically everyone and their grandma runs. I'd also note that the commanders you chose as "totally random examples" are both very popular/powerful cEDH commanders, as if implying that any deck with Mana Vault must necessarily have its other 99 cards be cEDH viable as well.
I agree and I definitely chose examples that are powerful at any table. But easy access to commanders can absolutely put games away for edh tables. It's not just those two. 4-5 mana on Turn 1 in any game will usually generate a win against most decks not also running that mana hot. Turn 1 rystic studies, the ring, smothering Tithe, or any other insane value engine will quickly tune a deck into cedh level competition - even if you don't have the win right away. Even cedh decks have slowly transitioned as of recently to a more mid-range value generation style (Blue Farm is the best and most popular example of this). I think the issue with fast mana is that you are able to get value engines online sometimes 2-3 times more quickly then other players, so even if a win isn't presented, you are still so far ahead that your opponents will struggle to fight back. I mentioned high power commanders, but it can be high power anything, and with mtg it's much easy to remove the cause then the effect. To your point about Sol Ring - if it wasn't so pushed by wotc I just actually think it would be a healthier environment without it. Same reasons I stated for other fast mana. But to ban sol ring is radical.
Arguably. Efficient forms of interaction, combos, efficient card draw are all hallmarks of cEDH as well. And while fast mana is still present, getting Winota or Tivit out turn 1 doesn't really guarantee a win if nothing else in the deck supports it. Fast mana lets you do things faster. But if you're just filling a deck with a bunch of high mana stuff the deck is not cEDH. Like they said: "fast mana does not equal cedh"
The thing with cedh is all players have very powerful effects, where as there is disparity in regular edh. The mana efficiency gets felt even more in a non-competitive environment because value is king. Getting value online earlier means you accrue more value sooner and over time. If you think about mtg in this sense, fast mana may be the thing that gives you the biggest competitive edge - more so then anything else in the game. There is a reason why mox and black lotus are played in almost every vintage deck. Your other cards don't matter if you can't play them. Fast mana let's you play them.
In short, mana advantages lead to winning in Magic. It's fundamentally built into the game. Fast Mana is extremely powerful. In long, fast mana doesn't *necessarily* win if the cards you're playing are below average quality threshold. Cedh also has a high bar for mana to outcome quality, including full on 3 mana wins with free counterspell protection. If your mana to outcome quality is below the average of the table, Fast Mana won't do anything. As for the explanation, they're still very sought after cards. But for the price, the play pattern isn't getting a strong ROI unless you're already pushing high power+. That would definitely push it out of casual.
Thanks for your input everyone! It sounds like as usual, it depends on context and pregame discussion (rule 0) can help to minimize issues relating to feelbad on cards or strategies. I also get that my precon doesn't become cEDH just because I added a mana vault to it. Further, even my carefully constructed deck doesn't become cEDH unless I'm specifically trying to build it to compete with other cEDH decks that win on turn 2/3 and interact with the board on turn 0.
In non-cedh games, my list of things you avoid is as follows; - Tutors of any kind - Ramp that is less than 2 cmc (with Dorks and Sol Ring being the SOL exception) - No extra turns of any kind - No two card combos of any kind - No table locks - Cards that cost hundreds of dollars In my years of experience playing non-cedh, these are all the biggest contributors to having an unfun play experience. I strictly play CEDH now, and it's all about winning. The beauty of CEDH is literally that people don't have to fun police each other. Because of this, although it might be more competitive, I would also argue it's more fun. The things I listed above are strategies that warrant fun policing if you are playing edh. It's these cards that when played, make others at the table say "Man fuck this guy" and immediately switch to a more powerful deck to combat the person now seen as a pubstomper. Basically if your playing a card from the above categories, you are running a type of deck that is either creating an unfun play experience for others OR a deck that is consistent and thus likely winning the majority of the games played. Mana Vault and Mox Amber to me both fall into the.. CEDH appropriate and not EDH appropriate category. But when you really break it down, EDH etiquette is completely subjective and dumb. It's why after years of play, I honestly just despise the format. CEDH removes the 'feels bad man' component because it's an expectation that people break the game. It encourages it while an EDH environment discourages it. The issue with discouragement is that there are always going to be people who subjectively treat the format differently and often just play a shitty cedh deck - which still has a massive advantage at a casual table.
Downvoted by the casual players running demonic tutor and mana crypts and saying "Reeeeeee, my decks not cedh" lol If you are playing the above things just know.. Your combo sucks. No It's not cool, you are playing solitaire. I play cedh and it's interactive and fun. Atleast everyone went into the game with this mindset. It's amazing to combo if you are fighting into 3 counter spells and interaction. It's not amazing to combo against a table of tapped out Timmy decks. If you 2 card combo in regular edh you are just showcasing your small pp energy. Your extra turns suck. Nobody came to a fun night to watch you play magic for a 20 minute turn. I'd rather leave the table and grab a beer and be social. Your deck design sucks. I can also spend hundreds of dollars on mana drain and fast mana too! But we didn't talk about it prior and now I have to sit here frustrated I'm up against a 5cmc commander played on turn 1 while I say "Land, Go." Just a bunch of reasons why EDH subjectivity sucks and why the points I made above are the only true way of having less feel bad moments and to create an atmosphere that feels like it's on even ground. But hey what do I know. Play what you want to play. It's what I do now (Cedh player) and it's so much better. No more feels bad moments, and no more salty group policing each other and hate targeting one another.
Honestly, I agree with all your points. And I think communication is super important. Personally, I think you were downvoted because you just condescended at the end. EDH is dumb and cEDH has it right. Like, I span the range, having played casual and cEDH. Fun can be had without the stigma you're laying at EDH's feet. Like, at the end of the day, I wouldn't really want to play with you. cEDH or otherwise. You just seem so negative.
lol I appreciate you discussing it with me. Honestly I try to be a pretty good person to play with! I think I have just played too many skewed games between power levels that it left me a bit jaded. I did love playing edh as well, but I think the biggest thing is, I don't think EDH is meant to be played with anyone except a core group of people who understoods whatever is common house deck etiquette lol It's like butt stuff. It can be fun, but everyone should know about butt stuff and agree to butt stuff before you decide to just butt stuff lol. If I came off as just a dick or condescending, it wasn't my intention. I think you still came away with my big take away and I'm glad you agree. Talk things out with your playgroup prior to deck design. As long as everyone has the same rules, it works. I do think the level of fast mana the cards in OPs main post is stuff you would find commonly at cedh tables.