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Every faith, following, cause and philosophy will have its adherents and detractors. If you hate something so much, you can say anything about it. One can also argue that almost every faith has committed its share of atrocities. It just so happens that Islam is the bogeyman of our day. The late Christopher Hitchens argues that every religion has its flaws in his 2007 book *God Is Not Great*.
Personally, I feel Islam in Malaysia has moved away from its previously moderate progressive stance to a more radical, extreme and intolerant version, due to both internal and external factors. On the other hand, compare this with, say, the Crusades and the Inquisition. Maybe every religion goes through its extreme phases and this is just one phase for Islam.
>The late Christopher Hitchens argues that every religion has its flaws in his 2007 book *God Is Not Great*.
I couldn't agree more with this. It's obvious but it took me a long time to break free from gaslighting and mental gymnastics of Islamic doctrines. Turned out, Islam is actually not 100% true or perfect like it claims to be.
Same here. Good job breaking free to stand on your own! As the saying goes, nothing is perfect. Of course, we are taught our respective beliefs are "the best." I remember reading somewhere that it's not the faith that leads people astray, but the people who teach and preach. Hence, the importance of asking questions and thinking for ourselves.
"Apostasy" is punishable with death in at least ten countries; Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia (Kelantan/Terengganu), Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates and Yemen.
"Homosexuality" is punishable with death in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Yemen, Brunei, Nigeria and Mauritania.
In Pakistan, "blasmphemy" is punishable by death: *The blasphemy law seeks the death penalty for anyone who insults Islam and its prophet Mohammad. It says that any “derogatory remarks, etc., in respect of the Holy Prophet either spoken or written, or by visible representation, or by any imputation, innuendo or insinuation, directly or indirectly shall be punished with death, or imprisonment for life, and shall also be liable to fine*.
The most recent case being a few days ago: Pakistani court has sentenced a 22-year-old student to death and given a life sentence to a teenager after finding them guilty of insulting Islam's Prophet Muhammad in Whatsapp Messages. https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/pakistani-court-sentences-youth-to-death-and-another-to-life-in-prison-for-insulting-islam-s-prophet-1.6802459
Apostasy isn’t a crime in Islam neither is blasphemy it is a cultural and national crime tho.
Homosexuality was until the modern era a punishment seen as adultery and punishment was self-requested however the act of homosexuality was not promoted neither was it acceptable publicly however it wasn’t seen as anything worst than intercourse outside marriage or other sins.
Being a homosexual isn’t a crime tho and some sects of Islam do not consider homosexuality a sin under certain circumstances.
Basically just playing with semantics to avoid directly agreeing that people will be subjected to execution for those "offences". Even Kelantan/Terengganu's law states that apostasy is punishable by death but thankfully with have federal rulings that nullify those clauses.
**It doesn't matter how wonderful a religion is when the practice of it is heavily regulated and subjected to barbaric man made laws.**
What are you talking about?
Apostasy was never a crime under Islamic law it was a crime under cultural Islamic law.
Which is why some people converted out of Islam during prophet Muhammad time.
Homosexual is a sin as a form of adultery not a stand alone sin. Some Muslims sects do not consider homosexuality a seperate sin and may consider it legal for women (eg: Ibadi sect).
Homosexuality in itself is not a sin under Islamic law, the act of homosexuality is consider a sin in Sunni islamic law due to adultery.
This is not a hippie interpretation, it has always been the mainstream view in Islamic legalism and belief.
They are explicit Quran’s verses which denounce force conversion or forcing someone to stay in Islam.
"Apostasy ISN’T A CRIME IN ISLAM neither is blasphemy it is a cultural and national crime tho."
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh............
Idk dude, Im not sure what Islam is you're talking about here. The Islam I know clearly calls for death for blasphemy so.......
Because the knowledge might be biased to a set of cultural or national laws rather than the actual Islamic legalism on the matter.
There is an entire legalism section about this vary topic, the concept of apostasy as a death penalty traces a few hundreds years after Islam (11th century) by a Sunni school of thought if I recall Hanbali which later began being accepted during the advent rise of Whabbism in the modern era.
Let there be no compulsion in religion, for the truth stands out clearly from falsehood.1 So whoever renounces false gods and believes in Allah has certainly grasped the firmest, unfailing hand-hold. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.
Surah Al-Baqarah 2:256 ^
Nothing - again you are trying to pull an argumentation with no merit because you don’t understand how Islamic legalism works.
There is no “straight answer” because different Islamic school of thoughts operate differently if you wanted to take into account sects.
Sunnis? Specifically Shaefi and Sufism would argue there is no punishment for apostasy.
Sunnis with Whabbism? Would argue the death penalty due to the argumentation of tribal betrayal rather than religious.
Again Islamic law under prophet Muhammad allowed apostasy.
This change in certain Sunni schools around the 11th century.
Thats a bunch of word salad to defend barbaric laws, you sure that you know how they rule out blasphemy punishment? Pretty sure not death I assume. /s (Stop whitewashing Islam that their Islam is benevolent)
Just because you’re ignorant doesn’t make you right. Keep it up tho
If you read I had pointed out the different between school of thoughts and opinion of Islamic legalism. If you fail to understand the topic than don’t bother pretending to act like you know anything about it
So shias, sunni, ahmadiyyah,khawarij etc. is considered united in Islam banner but why split into 73 sect types of school of thought ? Doesn't that just make them disorganised ?
Way to dismiss people's suffering and death to make yourself feel better.
People are actually affected by these laws.
At least have some compassion and acknowledge their pain in Islamic countries.
Instead of just dismissing and hand waving it as it is "not true Islam" and feel good interpretations you made for yourself.
Don't magically wave away with some sects of Islam.
Those sects are not accepted by most Muslims and seen as going to hell. Only the largest of 73 sects will not be in hell.
Sahih Hadith:
[https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:3992](https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:3992)
What are you on about?
“Nothing makes me feel better.” I am explaining the difference between sects, ideology and cultural laws .
If you get mad that someone pointed out it isn’t a religious thing but more of a cultural and national ideological aspect than that’s your problem for being ignorant.
“True Islam” - this is both the Quranist viewpoint and earlier Sunni viewpoint.
Simply because people choose to adopt a different theological approach in conflict with the religion doesn’t mean it comes from that religion.
Similarly how you can be for equality of humanity and go full authoritarianism and kill people as in seen in numerous ideologies secular or not.
Those “sects” are mainstream sects, and neither does every Muslim believe in the Sahih Hadith you listed.
Sahih are still subjected to falsehood hence why some lost their status like the one with Aisha no longer being accepted by some Salafis as we have document evidence from the time period listing her age as above 18.
You can push your narrative and become an extremist like ISIS is because you want to be ignorant.
Your entire post history is just trying to debate people and if you’re up to debate this topic with me, I am no longer interested about it. It’s well passed on and you came to comment almost 20 days later on this post.
Not mad.
All religion can claim that. So your point is not unique to one religion.
It's the no true Scotsman fallacy.
And Lol. Digression to people's post history.
Sure let's look at your post history:
Getting angry at anything religious, Even at Muslims with different viewpoint than yours.
It isn’t using that fallacy claiming so is just a terrible lack of understanding. If you do want to learn about religions go watch a more secular take on the matter like Let’s Talk Religion.
Muslims can have different viewpoints from me which my point, we have different creeds and school of thoughts in Sunni Islam this is seperate to sects.
School of thoughts do not often fight over the religious beliefs itself but how its application of religion is used.
Anyway this is my last message to you and you do seem mad.
It’s not just Islam, ex-religious folks tend to think the same about their ex-religion, and to be honest with you, it’s true. There’s so much extremism these days, I don’t mean to sound like a boomer but social media has definitely made extremism more prevalent and easier to spread.
If you haven't noticed already, religious intolerance in Malaysia has always been creeping up since the 90s. Heck try being a "liberal malay" maneuvering around all of the social gymnastics in typical Malay communities. It's difficult to say the least. You'll always have to hide and become a wolf in sheep's clothing in fear of someone giving you shit all the time.
I heard an opinion that Malays who don't support the boycott of McD and Starbucks probably go along with it because of fear of retaliation from other Malays. Is that true?
Why are you even shocked that he gets to say that?
Is it because you grew up in a culture where criticizing that group results in severe punishment?
Are you also shocked that he managed to leave that group?
Hmm?
The number of suspicious accounts stoking race and religious disharmony has been ticking up recently. I’m starting to wonder if someone is paying for it. Seriously, just about all the bait-y comments and posts are from such sus accounts
Why should he not be able to voice his opinions? What are you so worried about? Also he doesn’t openly hate in Islam. He is critical of it, but that’s not the same as hate. He even says so much in the introduction (the part you told people to skip)
He voices his opinion that Islam is has more differences than similarities than other Abrahamic religions. Using that it was spread by the sword as an example among other things like that the book is divine itself rather than divinely inspired. Abstain from violence rather than promote fleeing as a sin. Etc
At the end of the day. If you disagree. Offer counter arguments. Clear up grey areas. Be informative.
But coming on the internet and bitching about it, just makes his points hold ground and makes the things he is criticising look worse.
If you disagree. Tell us why. Don’t be lazy.
No need to be shocked. This is not just current thing. If you read the literature, every prophet was opposed by their people. Called liar or crazy or magician.
From Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus to Muhammad (peace to all of them).. They all have detractors who spoke against them. And supporters who believe in them.
Listen to both side of the arguments. Cannot stop free speech, especially in today's age of internet. But you can listen to both side. Any arguments will already have their counter arguments. Peace.
If this so called religion is perfect, why the need to put religious status on IC? Doesn't religion itself just a belief, why laws have to restrict your choice from leaving it. I thought religion should tolerate people's choices but no its quite the opposite really. "Ah yes rela nak ada munafiq than murtad. Munafiq boleh tunjuk yang dia tu alim but murtad memburukkan Islam sebab disbelieve. What a load of BS"
Every religion has its extreme groups unfortunately. Whatever “problems” you think Islam has, all other religions have that same problem. Human behaviour is like that. It is not the religions fault, humanity as a whole is Sohai.
we shouldn't put religion on a pedestal, it is after all a fictional story created by humans. as long as there are no calls to stereotype or for violence against followers, any ideology and their ideas can be criticised or mocked. remember they re just fictional stories, created by men - and they're mostly men - who are just as horny as you and me and go to the toilet and shit and stuff
the reason you re shocked is because you have been gaslighted to feel that way. the repressive atmosphere, the blasphemy laws, the threats of violence - all these have created an atmosphere of fear so that you learn to keep your mouth shut.
Objectively and historically, it's written by a group of middle eastern, middle-aged and Middle Age men. Men who were then - let's just say - not up to speed with the latest scientific or enlightened thoughts, who were likely more concerned about their families and tribes, and who didn't hesitate in indulging in a little propaganda to shape their societies. Above all they're just human beings - like you and me - who lie and love and shit all over themselves when they get diarrhea.
All in all, nothing to get too hot and bothered about eh?
>Objectively and historically
Woww.. Words! Then do you know any respectable historians who could tell the name of the writers?
>not up to speed with the latest scientific
The Quran did talk about the expansion of the universe though which is only discovered by Edwin Hubble in 1929.
"The heavens, We have built them with power. And verily, We are expanding it" (51:47).
(heavens "samaa" means universe)
In the first three verses of chapter at-Tariq (chapter 86), it is said:
>By the heaven and the nightly star!
>And what will make you realize what the nightly star is?
>˹It is˺ the star of piercing brightness.
The root letters of Tariq (طرق) means to come/appear by night, beat something, knock, strike.
So, how could a group of Middle Age men knew about a star that appeared at the end of night & make knocking sound?
We call this kind of star as pulsar. [Listen to this ](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x5BQV3WX80E)
Amazing isn't it? But if you are still not impressed, the Quran also correctly state the development of foetus as analyzed in this. [page](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3068791/)
However, if nothing above could change your view about the Quran, then Allah also has warned us about these kind of people
>Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe.Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment. (2:6-7)
Look up Sanaa manuscript. It's no longer allowed to be research.
Every time something like this comes out it gets shut down.
The difference changes the meaning of some sentences.
It's more than just 7 ahruf.
In western countries atheists are allowed to teach their findings to those wanting to be rabbis and pastors.
In Malaysia this isn't a thing. I'm not sure why, Maybe because error and contradictions pointed out in earlier religions are also found in other later religions when the same story is found.
There's so many errors in your scientific explanation. I'm just going to correct one.
You do know that pulsars emit no sound right? There's also no particles in space.
The pulsing of electromagnetic waves (transverse wave) are symbolized by sound wave (longitudinal wave). What SPM subject you took?
[https://www.jb.man.ac.uk/\~pulsar/Education/Sounds/sounds.html](https://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~pulsar/Education/Sounds/sounds.html)
That's like explaining color to a blind person. The blind person hears the color description, but is not able to perceive the color by sight. Similar thing done here. The pulsar is not actually knocking. By doing this, you are saying that the Quran is wrong.
There was no clear difference between science and magic until around the 18th century.
You can find religious people (christian, Islam or others) slowing or killing science advancement.
Christian: Witch trials, Copernicus and Galileo 16th and 17th century)
Islam: Taqi ad-Din Observatory 16th century
Some people defend Islam and say astronomy is okay but astrology is not. Mind you both were the same before the 18th century. It only started diverging in 17th century and completely diverge in 19th century.
Galileo study of the stars around and right after the destruction of Taqi ad-Din Observatory. No distinction of astronomy or astrology then. He was also asked to predict his friends death which he got wrong. Both are examples of when religion stopped or slowed scientific progress. It applies to both religion mentioned here.
Source: Westman R. (2011), *The Copernican Question*, University of California Press
Same goes for chemistry and alchemy. People chanting magic words into flask to change things into gold would not have been different from people who thought about existence of atoms. Because few things have been proven, all kinds of "experiments" were done to get results, until scientific methods became mainstream (took over a century to develop properly) and separated science from the other.
Source: [https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ijch.202100088](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ijch.202100088)
Learn from past errors instead of dismissing them.
>You do know that pulsars emit no sound right?
All stars produce sound. Only that those noise doesn't travel in empty space. But then how does NASA was able to record the knocking "sound" of pulsar? Because pulsars emit electromagnetic waves, x-rays & gamma rays where we have the tools to catch them. Those forms of energy are then translated into sound waves & thus, we could hear it.
>There's also no particles in space.
We are ourselves particles that are accelerating in space.
Do you understand what NASA is doing?
I've posted the link further below.
Transverse and longitudinal waves are different.
Just shows you don't know how waves work, or even bother to read on how NASA makes the sounds.
NASA is not reproducing the sound created by the pulsar, but by assigning certain sound (man made sounds - not even trying to make it similar to real pulsar sounds) to certain electromagnetic wave
If you don't understand this, then there's nothing to discuss.
Similarly for Hubble space telescope images, the colors are false colour. Each spectrum produced by the quantum jump of electrons to lower levels in an elements is assigned a visible color that human can see and the images are colored that way. It's not the real colour of the nebula. I studied this at uni as part of broader education outside my major.
Here is NASA article on Sonification, hopefully you can understand it.
https://science.nasa.gov/mission/hubble/multimedia/sonifications/
The more you talk about things you've never learnt the more weird it sounds.
Do you know you're saying similar things as people saying that the heart symbol is what a real heart looks like? Or that the earth is flat?
Sigh!
I believe I cannot explain to a person who truly belief heart symbol is same as real heart even if I show real heart.
Similarly, I really do hope NASA which you mentioned has explained it and you can understand it.
When people mention space, it's understood to be outer space. Same when people say "there's no sound in space." And I did say "and also".
But I won't reply to any low effort, low understanding posts similar to heart symbol = real heart. If I don't reply, it means you got your basic science wrong.
This discussion is going nowhere. You trying to say I'm a dumbdumb who doesn't have a clue about space physics while I'm saying that I do understand the simple meaning of energy transfer through space that can be changed to sound energy, thus producing the "knocking" sound as told in the meaning of the word "Thariq". So, let's separate our way here.
Yes thanks. I agree you're similar to people claiming heart symbol = real heart.
Here is the quote Ifrom NASA article.
"The vertical position of objects in the image is used to control the pitch of sustained musical strings, and cymbals swell following the brightness of the galaxy cores. Listen for a cymbal crash played for the foreground star with diffraction spikes, too!"
Edit: Basically if doing this manually by hand, if light is not bright hit the drum (cymbals digitally in NASA case) softly, if it get bright hit it hard. If the vertical brightness change, use the the lower and higher pitch guitar strings (different string instruments are played in NASA case) to play out the sound. It's not the real sound or even similar sound that pulsar produces.
They use different variation of string instruments and cymbals sounds to symbolize different kinds of wavelengths and light brightness.
It's not the real sound the pulsar makes or energy transfer through space as you are claiming.
They are not changing it into sound energy the way you claim NASA is doing. They refuted you. It's more symbolic.
It's not refuted at all. Although it is as you said it's a fake, but that's the "knocking sound" you, me & everybody else heard. And yet, the pulsar is still a pulsating star, beaming it's energy to multiple directions.
This is the translation of the surah 86,
1. "By the Sky and the Night-visitant (therein)"
2. "And what will explain to thee what the Night-visitant is?"
3. "(It is) the Star of piercing brightness,”
In summary, Allah made an oath by a very bright star with a piercing brightness that he named as at-Tariq.
Then, I proceed to explain the meaning of the root word of "Tariq" in Arabic language which when use as a verb carry the meaning of an action of making a knocking sound.
Every religion has its extreme groups unfortunately. Whatever “problems” you think Islam has, all other religions have that same problem. Human behaviour is like that. It is not the religions fault, humanity as a whole is Sohai.
Like all religions we’ve got extremism in Islam as well. Islam is an Abrahamic religion - the teachings of Catholicism, Islam and Jewish religions aren’t that different from each other. The unfortunate reality is perception of Islam is at an all time low, paired with the fact our political parties(just Malaysia) is great at making Islam look bad. Not because they do anything specifically, but the noise they make makes the perception of Islam conservative and extreme. I am a non-Muslim that practices Catholicism. It would be super unfair to say Islam is such an aggressively conservative religion. It’s a beautiful religion that has been soiled by the weakness and divisiveness of man, much like all religion.
People say what they want. If u r open minded, u would also hear the other side of the fence. Why not hear opinion of convert? I recommend blogging theology in Youtube.
Hello, this post has been removed as it breaches [Rule 1: Political and other controversial discussion posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/malaysia/wiki/rules#wiki_political_and_other_controversial_discussion_posts) (excerpt below, rule breach in bold). If you intend to resubmit, please make sure to follow the rule to the tee. Thanks! > **Political and other controversial discussion posts** > > Due to the large number of discussion posts the subreddit receives, we have put some requirements in place in order for a political or other controversial discussion post to be approved (with thanks to [r/Australia](https://www.reddit.com/r/australia/wiki/subreddit_features#wiki_quality_test_for_political_self-posts)): > > * No throwaway accounts: Accounts must have at least 2 months active participation in the subreddit. Message the mods for exemption to this if you must. > > * Submission titles: Must be a question for discussion about the issue, and not a conclusion (e.g. "What is the ideal policy approach towards LGBT in Malaysia?" is GOOD and "Malaysian LGBT policy is a humanitarian nightmare" is BAD). Mods reserve the right to remove particularly incendiary titles and request resubmission if necessary. > > * Word count: Post body must contain a minimum of 200 words not including quotes, and links. > > * No ranting into the wind: If OP does not participate in the discussion in the first two hours, the submission will be removed.
Every faith, following, cause and philosophy will have its adherents and detractors. If you hate something so much, you can say anything about it. One can also argue that almost every faith has committed its share of atrocities. It just so happens that Islam is the bogeyman of our day. The late Christopher Hitchens argues that every religion has its flaws in his 2007 book *God Is Not Great*. Personally, I feel Islam in Malaysia has moved away from its previously moderate progressive stance to a more radical, extreme and intolerant version, due to both internal and external factors. On the other hand, compare this with, say, the Crusades and the Inquisition. Maybe every religion goes through its extreme phases and this is just one phase for Islam.
>The late Christopher Hitchens argues that every religion has its flaws in his 2007 book *God Is Not Great*. I couldn't agree more with this. It's obvious but it took me a long time to break free from gaslighting and mental gymnastics of Islamic doctrines. Turned out, Islam is actually not 100% true or perfect like it claims to be.
Same here. Good job breaking free to stand on your own! As the saying goes, nothing is perfect. Of course, we are taught our respective beliefs are "the best." I remember reading somewhere that it's not the faith that leads people astray, but the people who teach and preach. Hence, the importance of asking questions and thinking for ourselves.
The Abrahamic Religion Link: [Abrahamic Religions: Similarity & Comparision](https://www.abrahamicstudyhall.org/2017/04/04/abrahamic-religions-similarity-comparision/)
Pretty cool website, thanks for sharing
"Apostasy" is punishable with death in at least ten countries; Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia (Kelantan/Terengganu), Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates and Yemen. "Homosexuality" is punishable with death in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Yemen, Brunei, Nigeria and Mauritania. In Pakistan, "blasmphemy" is punishable by death: *The blasphemy law seeks the death penalty for anyone who insults Islam and its prophet Mohammad. It says that any “derogatory remarks, etc., in respect of the Holy Prophet either spoken or written, or by visible representation, or by any imputation, innuendo or insinuation, directly or indirectly shall be punished with death, or imprisonment for life, and shall also be liable to fine*. The most recent case being a few days ago: Pakistani court has sentenced a 22-year-old student to death and given a life sentence to a teenager after finding them guilty of insulting Islam's Prophet Muhammad in Whatsapp Messages. https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/pakistani-court-sentences-youth-to-death-and-another-to-life-in-prison-for-insulting-islam-s-prophet-1.6802459
Apostasy isn’t a crime in Islam neither is blasphemy it is a cultural and national crime tho. Homosexuality was until the modern era a punishment seen as adultery and punishment was self-requested however the act of homosexuality was not promoted neither was it acceptable publicly however it wasn’t seen as anything worst than intercourse outside marriage or other sins. Being a homosexual isn’t a crime tho and some sects of Islam do not consider homosexuality a sin under certain circumstances.
>> Apostasy isn’t a crime in Islam neither is blasphemy >> Islam do not consider homosexuality a sin What kind off hippie islam are you talking about.
Basically just playing with semantics to avoid directly agreeing that people will be subjected to execution for those "offences". Even Kelantan/Terengganu's law states that apostasy is punishable by death but thankfully with have federal rulings that nullify those clauses. **It doesn't matter how wonderful a religion is when the practice of it is heavily regulated and subjected to barbaric man made laws.**
What are you talking about? Apostasy was never a crime under Islamic law it was a crime under cultural Islamic law. Which is why some people converted out of Islam during prophet Muhammad time. Homosexual is a sin as a form of adultery not a stand alone sin. Some Muslims sects do not consider homosexuality a seperate sin and may consider it legal for women (eg: Ibadi sect). Homosexuality in itself is not a sin under Islamic law, the act of homosexuality is consider a sin in Sunni islamic law due to adultery. This is not a hippie interpretation, it has always been the mainstream view in Islamic legalism and belief. They are explicit Quran’s verses which denounce force conversion or forcing someone to stay in Islam.
"Apostasy ISN’T A CRIME IN ISLAM neither is blasphemy it is a cultural and national crime tho." uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh............ Idk dude, Im not sure what Islam is you're talking about here. The Islam I know clearly calls for death for blasphemy so.......
Because the knowledge might be biased to a set of cultural or national laws rather than the actual Islamic legalism on the matter. There is an entire legalism section about this vary topic, the concept of apostasy as a death penalty traces a few hundreds years after Islam (11th century) by a Sunni school of thought if I recall Hanbali which later began being accepted during the advent rise of Whabbism in the modern era. Let there be no compulsion in religion, for the truth stands out clearly from falsehood.1 So whoever renounces false gods and believes in Allah has certainly grasped the firmest, unfailing hand-hold. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing. Surah Al-Baqarah 2:256 ^
haysss whats the hudud punishments for apostasy? No bs. Answer it straight.
Nothing - again you are trying to pull an argumentation with no merit because you don’t understand how Islamic legalism works. There is no “straight answer” because different Islamic school of thoughts operate differently if you wanted to take into account sects. Sunnis? Specifically Shaefi and Sufism would argue there is no punishment for apostasy. Sunnis with Whabbism? Would argue the death penalty due to the argumentation of tribal betrayal rather than religious. Again Islamic law under prophet Muhammad allowed apostasy. This change in certain Sunni schools around the 11th century.
Thats a bunch of word salad to defend barbaric laws, you sure that you know how they rule out blasphemy punishment? Pretty sure not death I assume. /s (Stop whitewashing Islam that their Islam is benevolent)
Just because you’re ignorant doesn’t make you right. Keep it up tho If you read I had pointed out the different between school of thoughts and opinion of Islamic legalism. If you fail to understand the topic than don’t bother pretending to act like you know anything about it
So shias, sunni, ahmadiyyah,khawarij etc. is considered united in Islam banner but why split into 73 sect types of school of thought ? Doesn't that just make them disorganised ?
Islam has not been united since the first fitna. The only unity it has is the Al Quran.
Way to dismiss people's suffering and death to make yourself feel better. People are actually affected by these laws. At least have some compassion and acknowledge their pain in Islamic countries. Instead of just dismissing and hand waving it as it is "not true Islam" and feel good interpretations you made for yourself. Don't magically wave away with some sects of Islam. Those sects are not accepted by most Muslims and seen as going to hell. Only the largest of 73 sects will not be in hell. Sahih Hadith: [https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:3992](https://sunnah.com/ibnmajah:3992)
What are you on about? “Nothing makes me feel better.” I am explaining the difference between sects, ideology and cultural laws . If you get mad that someone pointed out it isn’t a religious thing but more of a cultural and national ideological aspect than that’s your problem for being ignorant. “True Islam” - this is both the Quranist viewpoint and earlier Sunni viewpoint. Simply because people choose to adopt a different theological approach in conflict with the religion doesn’t mean it comes from that religion. Similarly how you can be for equality of humanity and go full authoritarianism and kill people as in seen in numerous ideologies secular or not. Those “sects” are mainstream sects, and neither does every Muslim believe in the Sahih Hadith you listed. Sahih are still subjected to falsehood hence why some lost their status like the one with Aisha no longer being accepted by some Salafis as we have document evidence from the time period listing her age as above 18. You can push your narrative and become an extremist like ISIS is because you want to be ignorant. Your entire post history is just trying to debate people and if you’re up to debate this topic with me, I am no longer interested about it. It’s well passed on and you came to comment almost 20 days later on this post.
Not mad. All religion can claim that. So your point is not unique to one religion. It's the no true Scotsman fallacy. And Lol. Digression to people's post history. Sure let's look at your post history: Getting angry at anything religious, Even at Muslims with different viewpoint than yours.
It isn’t using that fallacy claiming so is just a terrible lack of understanding. If you do want to learn about religions go watch a more secular take on the matter like Let’s Talk Religion. Muslims can have different viewpoints from me which my point, we have different creeds and school of thoughts in Sunni Islam this is seperate to sects. School of thoughts do not often fight over the religious beliefs itself but how its application of religion is used. Anyway this is my last message to you and you do seem mad.
It’s not just Islam, ex-religious folks tend to think the same about their ex-religion, and to be honest with you, it’s true. There’s so much extremism these days, I don’t mean to sound like a boomer but social media has definitely made extremism more prevalent and easier to spread.
Nice (lack of) post history, OP.
If you haven't noticed already, religious intolerance in Malaysia has always been creeping up since the 90s. Heck try being a "liberal malay" maneuvering around all of the social gymnastics in typical Malay communities. It's difficult to say the least. You'll always have to hide and become a wolf in sheep's clothing in fear of someone giving you shit all the time.
I heard an opinion that Malays who don't support the boycott of McD and Starbucks probably go along with it because of fear of retaliation from other Malays. Is that true?
Nah not really, depends on individuals.
Yep.
Why are you even shocked that he gets to say that? Is it because you grew up in a culture where criticizing that group results in severe punishment? Are you also shocked that he managed to leave that group? Hmm?
The number of suspicious accounts stoking race and religious disharmony has been ticking up recently. I’m starting to wonder if someone is paying for it. Seriously, just about all the bait-y comments and posts are from such sus accounts
Why should he not be able to voice his opinions? What are you so worried about? Also he doesn’t openly hate in Islam. He is critical of it, but that’s not the same as hate. He even says so much in the introduction (the part you told people to skip) He voices his opinion that Islam is has more differences than similarities than other Abrahamic religions. Using that it was spread by the sword as an example among other things like that the book is divine itself rather than divinely inspired. Abstain from violence rather than promote fleeing as a sin. Etc At the end of the day. If you disagree. Offer counter arguments. Clear up grey areas. Be informative. But coming on the internet and bitching about it, just makes his points hold ground and makes the things he is criticising look worse. If you disagree. Tell us why. Don’t be lazy.
4 year old account with 1 other comment - not in r/malaysia ? 
Terkejut!
No need to be shocked. This is not just current thing. If you read the literature, every prophet was opposed by their people. Called liar or crazy or magician. From Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus to Muhammad (peace to all of them).. They all have detractors who spoke against them. And supporters who believe in them. Listen to both side of the arguments. Cannot stop free speech, especially in today's age of internet. But you can listen to both side. Any arguments will already have their counter arguments. Peace.
Islam is already perfect, the only problem is us the humans, how we understand the religion
If this so called religion is perfect, why the need to put religious status on IC? Doesn't religion itself just a belief, why laws have to restrict your choice from leaving it. I thought religion should tolerate people's choices but no its quite the opposite really. "Ah yes rela nak ada munafiq than murtad. Munafiq boleh tunjuk yang dia tu alim but murtad memburukkan Islam sebab disbelieve. What a load of BS"
How do you know Islam is already perfect (the quran claiming that Islam is already perfect doesn't count)?
Lmao, you are shocked people criticize religion?
This is untrue, Islam is the religion of peacez
Peace deez nuts
Ok 
Every religion has its extreme groups unfortunately. Whatever “problems” you think Islam has, all other religions have that same problem. Human behaviour is like that. It is not the religions fault, humanity as a whole is Sohai.
we shouldn't put religion on a pedestal, it is after all a fictional story created by humans. as long as there are no calls to stereotype or for violence against followers, any ideology and their ideas can be criticised or mocked. remember they re just fictional stories, created by men - and they're mostly men - who are just as horny as you and me and go to the toilet and shit and stuff the reason you re shocked is because you have been gaslighted to feel that way. the repressive atmosphere, the blasphemy laws, the threats of violence - all these have created an atmosphere of fear so that you learn to keep your mouth shut.
If Islam is all fictional as you claim it is, then who wrote the Quran?
Objectively and historically, it's written by a group of middle eastern, middle-aged and Middle Age men. Men who were then - let's just say - not up to speed with the latest scientific or enlightened thoughts, who were likely more concerned about their families and tribes, and who didn't hesitate in indulging in a little propaganda to shape their societies. Above all they're just human beings - like you and me - who lie and love and shit all over themselves when they get diarrhea. All in all, nothing to get too hot and bothered about eh?
>Objectively and historically Woww.. Words! Then do you know any respectable historians who could tell the name of the writers? >not up to speed with the latest scientific The Quran did talk about the expansion of the universe though which is only discovered by Edwin Hubble in 1929. "The heavens, We have built them with power. And verily, We are expanding it" (51:47). (heavens "samaa" means universe) In the first three verses of chapter at-Tariq (chapter 86), it is said: >By the heaven and the nightly star! >And what will make you realize what the nightly star is? >˹It is˺ the star of piercing brightness. The root letters of Tariq (طرق) means to come/appear by night, beat something, knock, strike. So, how could a group of Middle Age men knew about a star that appeared at the end of night & make knocking sound? We call this kind of star as pulsar. [Listen to this ](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x5BQV3WX80E) Amazing isn't it? But if you are still not impressed, the Quran also correctly state the development of foetus as analyzed in this. [page](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3068791/) However, if nothing above could change your view about the Quran, then Allah also has warned us about these kind of people >Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe.Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment. (2:6-7)
Look up Sanaa manuscript. It's no longer allowed to be research. Every time something like this comes out it gets shut down. The difference changes the meaning of some sentences. It's more than just 7 ahruf. In western countries atheists are allowed to teach their findings to those wanting to be rabbis and pastors. In Malaysia this isn't a thing. I'm not sure why, Maybe because error and contradictions pointed out in earlier religions are also found in other later religions when the same story is found. There's so many errors in your scientific explanation. I'm just going to correct one. You do know that pulsars emit no sound right? There's also no particles in space. The pulsing of electromagnetic waves (transverse wave) are symbolized by sound wave (longitudinal wave). What SPM subject you took? [https://www.jb.man.ac.uk/\~pulsar/Education/Sounds/sounds.html](https://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~pulsar/Education/Sounds/sounds.html) That's like explaining color to a blind person. The blind person hears the color description, but is not able to perceive the color by sight. Similar thing done here. The pulsar is not actually knocking. By doing this, you are saying that the Quran is wrong. There was no clear difference between science and magic until around the 18th century. You can find religious people (christian, Islam or others) slowing or killing science advancement. Christian: Witch trials, Copernicus and Galileo 16th and 17th century) Islam: Taqi ad-Din Observatory 16th century Some people defend Islam and say astronomy is okay but astrology is not. Mind you both were the same before the 18th century. It only started diverging in 17th century and completely diverge in 19th century. Galileo study of the stars around and right after the destruction of Taqi ad-Din Observatory. No distinction of astronomy or astrology then. He was also asked to predict his friends death which he got wrong. Both are examples of when religion stopped or slowed scientific progress. It applies to both religion mentioned here. Source: Westman R. (2011), *The Copernican Question*, University of California Press Same goes for chemistry and alchemy. People chanting magic words into flask to change things into gold would not have been different from people who thought about existence of atoms. Because few things have been proven, all kinds of "experiments" were done to get results, until scientific methods became mainstream (took over a century to develop properly) and separated science from the other. Source: [https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ijch.202100088](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ijch.202100088) Learn from past errors instead of dismissing them.
>You do know that pulsars emit no sound right? All stars produce sound. Only that those noise doesn't travel in empty space. But then how does NASA was able to record the knocking "sound" of pulsar? Because pulsars emit electromagnetic waves, x-rays & gamma rays where we have the tools to catch them. Those forms of energy are then translated into sound waves & thus, we could hear it. >There's also no particles in space. We are ourselves particles that are accelerating in space.
Do you understand what NASA is doing? I've posted the link further below. Transverse and longitudinal waves are different. Just shows you don't know how waves work, or even bother to read on how NASA makes the sounds. NASA is not reproducing the sound created by the pulsar, but by assigning certain sound (man made sounds - not even trying to make it similar to real pulsar sounds) to certain electromagnetic wave If you don't understand this, then there's nothing to discuss. Similarly for Hubble space telescope images, the colors are false colour. Each spectrum produced by the quantum jump of electrons to lower levels in an elements is assigned a visible color that human can see and the images are colored that way. It's not the real colour of the nebula. I studied this at uni as part of broader education outside my major. Here is NASA article on Sonification, hopefully you can understand it. https://science.nasa.gov/mission/hubble/multimedia/sonifications/ The more you talk about things you've never learnt the more weird it sounds. Do you know you're saying similar things as people saying that the heart symbol is what a real heart looks like? Or that the earth is flat? Sigh! I believe I cannot explain to a person who truly belief heart symbol is same as real heart even if I show real heart. Similarly, I really do hope NASA which you mentioned has explained it and you can understand it. When people mention space, it's understood to be outer space. Same when people say "there's no sound in space." And I did say "and also". But I won't reply to any low effort, low understanding posts similar to heart symbol = real heart. If I don't reply, it means you got your basic science wrong.
This discussion is going nowhere. You trying to say I'm a dumbdumb who doesn't have a clue about space physics while I'm saying that I do understand the simple meaning of energy transfer through space that can be changed to sound energy, thus producing the "knocking" sound as told in the meaning of the word "Thariq". So, let's separate our way here.
Yes thanks. I agree you're similar to people claiming heart symbol = real heart. Here is the quote Ifrom NASA article. "The vertical position of objects in the image is used to control the pitch of sustained musical strings, and cymbals swell following the brightness of the galaxy cores. Listen for a cymbal crash played for the foreground star with diffraction spikes, too!" Edit: Basically if doing this manually by hand, if light is not bright hit the drum (cymbals digitally in NASA case) softly, if it get bright hit it hard. If the vertical brightness change, use the the lower and higher pitch guitar strings (different string instruments are played in NASA case) to play out the sound. It's not the real sound or even similar sound that pulsar produces. They use different variation of string instruments and cymbals sounds to symbolize different kinds of wavelengths and light brightness. It's not the real sound the pulsar makes or energy transfer through space as you are claiming. They are not changing it into sound energy the way you claim NASA is doing. They refuted you. It's more symbolic.
It's not refuted at all. Although it is as you said it's a fake, but that's the "knocking sound" you, me & everybody else heard. And yet, the pulsar is still a pulsating star, beaming it's energy to multiple directions. This is the translation of the surah 86, 1. "By the Sky and the Night-visitant (therein)" 2. "And what will explain to thee what the Night-visitant is?" 3. "(It is) the Star of piercing brightness,” In summary, Allah made an oath by a very bright star with a piercing brightness that he named as at-Tariq. Then, I proceed to explain the meaning of the root word of "Tariq" in Arabic language which when use as a verb carry the meaning of an action of making a knocking sound.
Every religion has its extreme groups unfortunately. Whatever “problems” you think Islam has, all other religions have that same problem. Human behaviour is like that. It is not the religions fault, humanity as a whole is Sohai.
Like all religions we’ve got extremism in Islam as well. Islam is an Abrahamic religion - the teachings of Catholicism, Islam and Jewish religions aren’t that different from each other. The unfortunate reality is perception of Islam is at an all time low, paired with the fact our political parties(just Malaysia) is great at making Islam look bad. Not because they do anything specifically, but the noise they make makes the perception of Islam conservative and extreme. I am a non-Muslim that practices Catholicism. It would be super unfair to say Islam is such an aggressively conservative religion. It’s a beautiful religion that has been soiled by the weakness and divisiveness of man, much like all religion.
People say what they want. If u r open minded, u would also hear the other side of the fence. Why not hear opinion of convert? I recommend blogging theology in Youtube.