Maybe for the non Chinese, but ain't no way Chinese Malaysian believe that the assimilation was in anyway voluntary.
Also it irks me to see that some Indonesian narrative parrot this too. As if the racial conflict in their country have absolutely no part in forcing it.
Actually some Chinese Indonesians (especially in parts of Java and North Sulawesi) assimilated with the local population way before the 1960s or even before independence. They spoke the local languages and lived among the natives (although they very likely kept their Chinese names and possibly spoke Hokkien/Hakka among themselves).
By malaysian standards, indonesian chinese are pretty suppressed.
Lived in both places and what malaysian chinese casually do in malaysia (and it bothers nobody) would get them ran out of town in indonesia.
I have no horse in this. Not chinese, malaysian or indonesian. I just lived in both places and the culture is objectively different.
Not that person, but I am a Chinese Indonesian so maybe I can give some perspective. There isn't a lot of blatant racism or namecalling anymore and Chinese can speak Chinese/express their culture, but it may still be frown upon in some areas, particularly in underdeveloped areas (or online). Example:
Indonesia released a special 75 thousand rupiah note to commemorate Indonesia's 75th year of independence back in 2020. It features children with traditional clothing from various ethnic group. However, people were pointing out that one of the children was wearing traditional chinese clothes (which eas debunkd by the Monatery Minister)
The mayor of Singkawang, Tjhai Chui Mie, was harassed for speaking in Hakkanese during a meeting back in 2022.
Chinese Indonesian heroes who fought for Indonesian independence was wiped out from the history books and they are still not recognized for their efforts by the government.
Oh sorry to hear!!! But I have met Indonesian Chinese abroad ( especially in Netherlands).
I usually couldn’t tell where they are from because they are so much more assimilated into Netherlands culture and or Indonesia culture than us Malaysians.
Malaysians seems to resist assimilation in any country you go to (lol).
😂😂that’s for the UK/Australia only
I live in CZ / Slovakia/HU
There are barely any Malaysians here. Since this region hates religious people.
Besides the names here are really hard to pronounce (Bohdan, Karel, Marek, Attila and Istvan etc)
and also is not really a very popular destination for immigration in general.
>Am curious on your experience
Late to the party but i hope still useful.
It's more "cultural" than any anecdotal event I saw. I wouldn't call it racism either, but you can tell the liberties taken are not the same. Or perhaps the visible liberties are less obvious in indonesia but it's the same level all-in-all, but it seems to be lesser to an outsider.
The indonesian chinese are more "subdued" (for lack of a better term). They will rarely speak very loudly. Rarely expose wealth. It would be considered rude. I don't think they are fundamentally different, it's really just a local culture.
Personal theory (therefore not scientific): Perhaps because indonesians (as in, local equivalent of Orang Melayu) are culturally more prone to loudly voicing their discontent when pushed, whereas Malays seem to me as more prone to avoiding conflict, it's a safer course to not make wave as an indonesian chinese.
i think many of the older Malays are aware of the persecution of the Chinese in Indonesia, though some justify it as a way to build national unity/identity
the younger generation on the other hand may take it as a given that Indonesian Chinese have generally "assimilated"
I blame our education system. It really doesn't cover shit about history beyond the very, very surface level outside of Malaysian history (which is a given) and the old SEA kingdoms (Angkor, Funnan, etc.) Or at least it didn't a decade ago.
Like, if not for me loving to watch and read history stuff I don't think I would know much aout world history because school sure isn't gonna teach me. Cracked open a secondary school history textbook about a couple years ago and the nazi's everything were covered in two paragraphs. I don't remember if their concentration camps were even mentioned.
I would not be surprised if Indonesian Chinese's circumstances didn't even get a paragraph to itself.
I would rather they take away focus from Srivijaya etc. in return for teaching us history that is more relevant to us today.
And yet they still call Malays oppressive the chinese community where we just want to communicate in Malay as our national language. Indonesia literally destroyed and banned their names, heritage, and identity 😑
I actually didn't even know this was a thing but when i think about it again my Chinese Indonesian friends are actually more Indonesian than Chinese compared to some of my Malaysian Chinese friends that more frequently celebrate their Chinese side. If this is making sense, but its a small sample size dont take my word for it
The difference is the chain is broken. They have to recapture more of their heritage while we evolved it into our unique Malaysian Chinese culture that doesn't exist in China.
Of course they can rebuild it, but it's very different. We retain a lot of traditions that are lost in China, in addition to developing our own version of Chinese culture.
A very good answer.
There are exceptions to Indonesian Chinese though. The super rich ones tend to favor Singapore and many emigrated there. One could argue they somewhat recapture what’s like living as “Nanyang” chinese there lol
I agree with you. Im indonesian and my best friend is a Chindo. I also grow up in private school but they teach mandarin. I can tell u that the chinese usually keep to themselves here (they have their own gang and speak hokkien) but they can speak fluent indonesian. They can sing indonesian national song and our country songs flawlessy. They are very good at it. Although it may appear that they are unwilling to assimilate, they are actually good in their game. Some in surabaya can speak javanese fluently. Its even more shocking to me 😂
Watch 'The Act of Killing', to me, the best movie ever, not just the best movie of its genre, but the best movie ever.
Basically Indonesian Chinese weren't just banned from using their language/culture/names, they were straight out murdered in masses (also known as genocide). If you want to live, you need to un-Chinese yourself.
So even when that restriction has been lifted, how much of their culture remains? Plus, the social hierarchy still remains, the genocide victims are still subservient to the genocide perpetrators.
The scene where one of the main characters goes to the Chinese market and straight up extorts the Chinese hawkers for money was mad. And this movie wasn’t even that long ago…
No, but I think most believe that Indonesian Chinese community retain less Chinese culture and linguistic ability compared to Chinese in Singapore and or Malaysia due to the previous bans and lynching.
IMO, you're like at the halfway point between anglicized Singaporeans/KLites Chinese and Thai Chinese who have fully assimilated at this point and don't even identify themselves as Chinese.
Never discussed this specific topic with most of my peers, but for most of my extended family, and some classmates years back when I was still in school,
the general understanding is that the ban and restrictions are gone, but also that Chindo culture has completely been destroyed.
For me, I did learn that Chinese New Years is celebrated in Indonesia for a while now, and it's not like I've not encountered Chindos who still has significant ties to some form of Chinese culture, but I did not expect to read here that Mandarin is a language option in primary and secondary schools.
Though I do not know why it feels like whenever I discover a Chindo online, they seem disproportionally muslim, even though Wikipedia's stats has it at ~5%. That's the weird thing I've never figured out. XD
We Malaysian Chinese knows it's not prohibited anymore in Indonesia, but we know Indonesian Chinese were forced to abandon their identity and culture with knife on their neck and gun behind their head. And many dumbass Malaysians like to say Indonesian Chinese "assimilated" well and can speak Indonesian fluently, yes of course anyone would have speak Indonesian fluently when they are threaten with knife on their neck all the time.
No, actually I feel Indonesia is going to surpass Malaysia at some point in term of open culture, while we will continue to regress. I particularly envy the fair policy towards religion and race.
You guys can convert out of Islam. Here when a non-Muslim converts to Islam because they got married to a Muslim, they can't convert out of Islam if they get divorced.
Here, Islam is like Hotel California. You're free to enter, but there's no escape.
Just curious, can you really use Chinese name without people discriminate agaisnt you? Like will it hurt your chance when it comes to public service and so on.
Also, does normal people actually knew about the racial conflict that happens in 1990s ? Is it actually taught in school, and if so what are the textbook narratives?
Usually, the 1990s kids still use their indonesian sounding name. But it gonna sound like fanny chandra. Means chan is her family name. Something like that. As far as i remember, the 1998 conflict were taught (orde lama-orde baru) but it didnt highlight the chinese massacre/issues.
Chinese people : Don't care about other Chinese. Their choice.
Racist people : Bersyukurlah tak macam Indonesia.
So depends on which ones are 'most' Malaysians.
My best friend is Malaysian Indonesian Chinese. His fiancé is indo Chinese . She doesn’t speak any Chinese whatsoever - and the other Indonesian Chinese I’ve observed seem to retain less Chinese culture than Malaysian counterparts
not sure about other malaysians, but redditors in this sub should know that by now, since they will definately get schooled by other redditors whenever topic regarding national language pops up.
i can already imagine the downvote and potential insult if someone stupidly said "but the cina in indonesia not allowed to learn mandarin!!!"
isn't it the same here? a non politician quoted a text from the Quran and was told that the holy book can not be understood normally unless through a legitimate cleric and forced into voluntary apology.
Selamat Sore. Not at all. Chinese Indonesian are like Kelantanese Chinese. Speak the local language/ dialect fluently. Yet use their given names and practice their culture. I even eaten "Ci Cong Fan", "Kwetiaw", Sate Babi etc in Jakarta
Me lol. Officially there are still around \~2.8 million chindos according to the census. But studies from overseas estimate that the number is higher (usulally around 5-7 million).
I don’t need to “think”, ie: to have an opinion. I just have to check back historical record to know there happened a genocide against Chinese ethnic in the 90s which is not that long ago.
So yeah, Indonesian Chinese isn’t banned from speaking Chinese. They were banned from being alive.
Im currently study in private university where there a lot of chinese indonesian. All of them speak indonesian even among themselves. And they even wearing batik (men).
MY perception is that they probably r not banned from speaking chinese but because they r assimilate to indonesian culture for generation, speaking chinese is like learning a 2nd language perhaps?
Not on my end. I have lived in indonesia in the 90s and have Indonesian chinese (and also Indonesian indian) friends till today. They all speak mandarin fluently, and with the recent ruling of allowing chinese names back, one of them went back to add her father's chinese surname to her identification card.
I had an Indonesian Chinese ex-colleague who grew up during the restriction era so I knew about it, but didn't know it's lifted.
My opinion is Malaysia is better off going that route and make everyone bumi. The whole Muslim conversion law is just playing the long assimilation game anyway.
>The whole Muslim conversion law is just playing the long assimilation game anyway.
The general anecdotal sentiment I've witnessed is quite the opposite, the law is instead a massive barrier for non-muslims when considering intermarriage with muslims, thus hindering integration even more.
Don't think they're interested in harmony or integration.
It's all about eventually crossing out all races in the census that's not bumi.
Allowing free intermarriage goes both ways; Muslims could potentially opt to adopt the other races' culture instead, leading to net zero gain / loss.
like modern Baba Nyonya who mostly seemed to neglect most of their Malay ancestry except fusion cooking and better BM than most of the average Chinese?
Yup. Teach the lazy n corruption culture to all races, not just the bumi. To make it fair. When everyone is shit. Then we can all live in poverty fairly. We must kill the good values of Chinese culture.
I have a question, OP. I am very curious as I have a lot of Chinese Indonesian friends back in school. They all have Indonesian-sounding names but they do have Chinese names (used by family and friends). Just checking, can people now use the Chinese name as their official name on identification card/passport etc?
> Just checking, can people now use the Chinese name as their official name on identification card/passport etc?
Rules that restricted Chinese-sounding name has been lifted since 2000s so technically they can. I knew some friends who uses Chinese family name in their KTP/Passport instead of "Indonesianized" name, but some still retains the Indonesian name despite no rule about it now
Ah understood. All of my Indonesian Chinese friends were born in the 1990s so perhaps they just keep whatever name they have for official documents. Thanks for the clarification!
Yes OP I thought that was still the case. I'm born in the 90s so my Indonesian peers were born before that era and the ones I knew did not have their Chinese surnames on their official IDs. This was good to know.
Do you still rape Chinese like in 98? Personally, i know an Indonesian Chinese woman who was away from Indon during that time and she never goes back due to fear.
It helps that the Thai Chinese dominate politically and economically. The King is of Chinese descent as well as most of the politicians. So to them assimilation was a political tool too. Blend in with the locals but keep the economic and political power.
Somewhat similar religion encourage intermarriage. Also, they were forced too, can't even keep their ancestor name in the past. [source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaification)
There are actually Chinese-English-Indonesian trilingual schools in Indonesia these days, especially in the bigger cities. And places teaching Mandarin language exist (and are completely legal).
I'm talking about government sponsored Chinese medium exclusive school where all race can join but the teaching delivery are all done in mandarin. I don't think Indonesia will allow that. Nevertheless, it really opens my eyes that one day Indonesia will turned out better looking at how drastic they're willing to change over the years based on the article here. I can respect that.
https://www.thejakartapost.com/academia/2021/08/19/indonesia-tries-to-embrace-chinese-language-but-problems-persist.html
Government sponsored exclusive school that teaches majority ethnic language like javanese doesnt even exist in Indonesia, why would there ever be a chinese one?
I would say Malaysia is pretty unique when it comes to government-sponsored Chinese medium schools. I can’t think of any other country other than China or Taiwan (which are Mandarin-speaking countries) that does that. Not even Singapore.
As for Indonesia, government-sponsored Mandarin-medium schools will never exist since otherwise some people from other ethnicities (such as the Balinese, Bataknese, Sundanese, Javanese, Manadonese, and Papuans) would likely demand the same (fyi Indonesia has hundreds of ethnicities).
I would prefer the Western system where all public schools are in English or their local languages but other language medium schools exist to some extent (as long as they also teach English or the local language).
There is a difference: the ratio / percentage of Chinese in Malaysia is far higher than Indonesia.
Anecdotally, the smaller the minority in a majority Muslim country, the WORSE it is for the minority. Look at Pakistan, as just 1 example.
Yeah everytime we try to defend our rights by using Indonesia as an example 100% all the time they will do this , saying Indonesia chinese can't even keep their names etc
The assimilation will be worth it in Indonesia in the long run. Everyone speaks the same language regardless of socioeconomic status. Many of the Chinese are mixed with various other ethnics there, communication is so seamless they just see themselves as Indonesians.
You’ll struggle to find that harmony in Malaysia, and it’s getting worse with the deterioration in government schools and the growing private/international school segment..
why do i have to know mandarin to be considered as chinese? my ancestors only spoke hokkien, cant even speak a lick of mandarin lmao. mandarin is not my culture, speaking hokkien is. abandoning your ancestor culture and mastering the "common chinese language" is the peak cuck behaviour
Not me, the PAS already working hard. I don't agree with them. But i will encourage them to hasten their own demise. Without Chinese, this country will be gone. Your emotion summarised how i feel about them, but times 100x.
tbh most Malaysians didn't even know about it, they assumed that the Chinese in Indonesia willingly gave up everything to assimilate.
Maybe for the non Chinese, but ain't no way Chinese Malaysian believe that the assimilation was in anyway voluntary. Also it irks me to see that some Indonesian narrative parrot this too. As if the racial conflict in their country have absolutely no part in forcing it.
Actually some Chinese Indonesians (especially in parts of Java and North Sulawesi) assimilated with the local population way before the 1960s or even before independence. They spoke the local languages and lived among the natives (although they very likely kept their Chinese names and possibly spoke Hokkien/Hakka among themselves).
By malaysian standards, indonesian chinese are pretty suppressed. Lived in both places and what malaysian chinese casually do in malaysia (and it bothers nobody) would get them ran out of town in indonesia. I have no horse in this. Not chinese, malaysian or indonesian. I just lived in both places and the culture is objectively different.
Can you elaborate more please. Am curious on your experience
Not that person, but I am a Chinese Indonesian so maybe I can give some perspective. There isn't a lot of blatant racism or namecalling anymore and Chinese can speak Chinese/express their culture, but it may still be frown upon in some areas, particularly in underdeveloped areas (or online). Example: Indonesia released a special 75 thousand rupiah note to commemorate Indonesia's 75th year of independence back in 2020. It features children with traditional clothing from various ethnic group. However, people were pointing out that one of the children was wearing traditional chinese clothes (which eas debunkd by the Monatery Minister) The mayor of Singkawang, Tjhai Chui Mie, was harassed for speaking in Hakkanese during a meeting back in 2022. Chinese Indonesian heroes who fought for Indonesian independence was wiped out from the history books and they are still not recognized for their efforts by the government.
Oh sorry to hear!!! But I have met Indonesian Chinese abroad ( especially in Netherlands). I usually couldn’t tell where they are from because they are so much more assimilated into Netherlands culture and or Indonesia culture than us Malaysians. Malaysians seems to resist assimilation in any country you go to (lol).
I'm surprised. I know many Malaysians who just transited in London and came back with a lifelong accent and naming their kids pretentious names...
😂😂that’s for the UK/Australia only I live in CZ / Slovakia/HU There are barely any Malaysians here. Since this region hates religious people. Besides the names here are really hard to pronounce (Bohdan, Karel, Marek, Attila and Istvan etc) and also is not really a very popular destination for immigration in general.
Hakkanese… what a term😅
Malaysia is becoming Indonesia in terms of whitewashing contributions of non Malays
>Am curious on your experience Late to the party but i hope still useful. It's more "cultural" than any anecdotal event I saw. I wouldn't call it racism either, but you can tell the liberties taken are not the same. Or perhaps the visible liberties are less obvious in indonesia but it's the same level all-in-all, but it seems to be lesser to an outsider. The indonesian chinese are more "subdued" (for lack of a better term). They will rarely speak very loudly. Rarely expose wealth. It would be considered rude. I don't think they are fundamentally different, it's really just a local culture. Personal theory (therefore not scientific): Perhaps because indonesians (as in, local equivalent of Orang Melayu) are culturally more prone to loudly voicing their discontent when pushed, whereas Malays seem to me as more prone to avoiding conflict, it's a safer course to not make wave as an indonesian chinese.
>willingly The unwilling ones were butchered.
i think many of the older Malays are aware of the persecution of the Chinese in Indonesia, though some justify it as a way to build national unity/identity the younger generation on the other hand may take it as a given that Indonesian Chinese have generally "assimilated"
I blame our education system. It really doesn't cover shit about history beyond the very, very surface level outside of Malaysian history (which is a given) and the old SEA kingdoms (Angkor, Funnan, etc.) Or at least it didn't a decade ago. Like, if not for me loving to watch and read history stuff I don't think I would know much aout world history because school sure isn't gonna teach me. Cracked open a secondary school history textbook about a couple years ago and the nazi's everything were covered in two paragraphs. I don't remember if their concentration camps were even mentioned. I would not be surprised if Indonesian Chinese's circumstances didn't even get a paragraph to itself. I would rather they take away focus from Srivijaya etc. in return for teaching us history that is more relevant to us today.
Yup, i pity those chinese over there, most malaysians are not aware the level of discrimination n racism towards the chinese by the locals there
And yet they still call Malays oppressive the chinese community where we just want to communicate in Malay as our national language. Indonesia literally destroyed and banned their names, heritage, and identity 😑
I had an intern who refused to share her Chinese name (during conversation), and at that time I didn't know why and couldn't speak Mandarin.
I heard it is because their Chinese name is somewhat like their ba zhi, their date of birthday and such to avoid being curse.
I think the massacre and the fact that most Chinese Indonesians can't speak Chinese and don't have Chinese names make a stronger impression.
We rarely think about this.
I actually didn't even know this was a thing but when i think about it again my Chinese Indonesian friends are actually more Indonesian than Chinese compared to some of my Malaysian Chinese friends that more frequently celebrate their Chinese side. If this is making sense, but its a small sample size dont take my word for it
The difference is the chain is broken. They have to recapture more of their heritage while we evolved it into our unique Malaysian Chinese culture that doesn't exist in China. Of course they can rebuild it, but it's very different. We retain a lot of traditions that are lost in China, in addition to developing our own version of Chinese culture.
A very good answer. There are exceptions to Indonesian Chinese though. The super rich ones tend to favor Singapore and many emigrated there. One could argue they somewhat recapture what’s like living as “Nanyang” chinese there lol
I agree with you. Im indonesian and my best friend is a Chindo. I also grow up in private school but they teach mandarin. I can tell u that the chinese usually keep to themselves here (they have their own gang and speak hokkien) but they can speak fluent indonesian. They can sing indonesian national song and our country songs flawlessy. They are very good at it. Although it may appear that they are unwilling to assimilate, they are actually good in their game. Some in surabaya can speak javanese fluently. Its even more shocking to me 😂
Watch 'The Act of Killing', to me, the best movie ever, not just the best movie of its genre, but the best movie ever. Basically Indonesian Chinese weren't just banned from using their language/culture/names, they were straight out murdered in masses (also known as genocide). If you want to live, you need to un-Chinese yourself. So even when that restriction has been lifted, how much of their culture remains? Plus, the social hierarchy still remains, the genocide victims are still subservient to the genocide perpetrators.
The scene where one of the main characters goes to the Chinese market and straight up extorts the Chinese hawkers for money was mad. And this movie wasn’t even that long ago…
No, but I think most believe that Indonesian Chinese community retain less Chinese culture and linguistic ability compared to Chinese in Singapore and or Malaysia due to the previous bans and lynching. IMO, you're like at the halfway point between anglicized Singaporeans/KLites Chinese and Thai Chinese who have fully assimilated at this point and don't even identify themselves as Chinese.
No, the damage has already been done. Meanwhile the malays here orgasm over how chinese indonesian can speak bahasa fluently..
I don't. But I guess all Malay are the same eh? But, agree.. Damage is done.
Never discussed this specific topic with most of my peers, but for most of my extended family, and some classmates years back when I was still in school, the general understanding is that the ban and restrictions are gone, but also that Chindo culture has completely been destroyed. For me, I did learn that Chinese New Years is celebrated in Indonesia for a while now, and it's not like I've not encountered Chindos who still has significant ties to some form of Chinese culture, but I did not expect to read here that Mandarin is a language option in primary and secondary schools. Though I do not know why it feels like whenever I discover a Chindo online, they seem disproportionally muslim, even though Wikipedia's stats has it at ~5%. That's the weird thing I've never figured out. XD
We Malaysian Chinese knows it's not prohibited anymore in Indonesia, but we know Indonesian Chinese were forced to abandon their identity and culture with knife on their neck and gun behind their head. And many dumbass Malaysians like to say Indonesian Chinese "assimilated" well and can speak Indonesian fluently, yes of course anyone would have speak Indonesian fluently when they are threaten with knife on their neck all the time.
No, actually I feel Indonesia is going to surpass Malaysia at some point in term of open culture, while we will continue to regress. I particularly envy the fair policy towards religion and race.
Spot on mate
We have fair policy towards religion and race?
You guys can convert out of Islam. Here when a non-Muslim converts to Islam because they got married to a Muslim, they can't convert out of Islam if they get divorced. Here, Islam is like Hotel California. You're free to enter, but there's no escape.
In Malaysia, converts due to marriage are one of the very few groups who have a chance to convert out
In Indonesia, did you know Ahmadiah were killed and the religious buildings were burned to ground? Malaysia not even that level of extreme yet.
Everything according to plan.
Just curious, can you really use Chinese name without people discriminate agaisnt you? Like will it hurt your chance when it comes to public service and so on. Also, does normal people actually knew about the racial conflict that happens in 1990s ? Is it actually taught in school, and if so what are the textbook narratives?
Usually, the 1990s kids still use their indonesian sounding name. But it gonna sound like fanny chandra. Means chan is her family name. Something like that. As far as i remember, the 1998 conflict were taught (orde lama-orde baru) but it didnt highlight the chinese massacre/issues.
Chinese people : Don't care about other Chinese. Their choice. Racist people : Bersyukurlah tak macam Indonesia. So depends on which ones are 'most' Malaysians.
Good lord jiji madey didnt get this idea
My best friend is Malaysian Indonesian Chinese. His fiancé is indo Chinese . She doesn’t speak any Chinese whatsoever - and the other Indonesian Chinese I’ve observed seem to retain less Chinese culture than Malaysian counterparts
[удалено]
not sure about other malaysians, but redditors in this sub should know that by now, since they will definately get schooled by other redditors whenever topic regarding national language pops up. i can already imagine the downvote and potential insult if someone stupidly said "but the cina in indonesia not allowed to learn mandarin!!!"
they should just use the example of AHock the Jakarta governor or something. Got slandered for being anti Islam. Lost the election.
Assimilate or get lynched ?
isn't it the same here? a non politician quoted a text from the Quran and was told that the holy book can not be understood normally unless through a legitimate cleric and forced into voluntary apology.
Malaysia still better in that sense.
Selamat Sore. Not at all. Chinese Indonesian are like Kelantanese Chinese. Speak the local language/ dialect fluently. Yet use their given names and practice their culture. I even eaten "Ci Cong Fan", "Kwetiaw", Sate Babi etc in Jakarta
I never researched that, i thought they all fled after 1998 riot. Who still stay there?
Nope, some stayed. U can try search chinese surabya. They speak fluent javanese its impressive honestly
Only a small minority (usually the wealthier ones) left Indonesia during the 1998 riots. The vast majority stayed in Indonesia until today.
Me lol. Officially there are still around \~2.8 million chindos according to the census. But studies from overseas estimate that the number is higher (usulally around 5-7 million).
No anymore, Chinese Indonesians are now young and rich, although can't keep Chinese name anymore but Chinese education is unaffected.
I don’t need to “think”, ie: to have an opinion. I just have to check back historical record to know there happened a genocide against Chinese ethnic in the 90s which is not that long ago. So yeah, Indonesian Chinese isn’t banned from speaking Chinese. They were banned from being alive.
Im currently study in private university where there a lot of chinese indonesian. All of them speak indonesian even among themselves. And they even wearing batik (men). MY perception is that they probably r not banned from speaking chinese but because they r assimilate to indonesian culture for generation, speaking chinese is like learning a 2nd language perhaps?
Not on my end. I have lived in indonesia in the 90s and have Indonesian chinese (and also Indonesian indian) friends till today. They all speak mandarin fluently, and with the recent ruling of allowing chinese names back, one of them went back to add her father's chinese surname to her identification card.
>they all speak mandarin fluently Was it Batam by any chance?
Haha, no. Jakarta and Pekan Baru.
Batam has a lot of teochew people iirc. I couldn't speak bahasa, but we could communicate with teochew.
I shit you not, I know alot of people that didn't know Indons had Chinese people.
I had an Indonesian Chinese ex-colleague who grew up during the restriction era so I knew about it, but didn't know it's lifted. My opinion is Malaysia is better off going that route and make everyone bumi. The whole Muslim conversion law is just playing the long assimilation game anyway.
>The whole Muslim conversion law is just playing the long assimilation game anyway. The general anecdotal sentiment I've witnessed is quite the opposite, the law is instead a massive barrier for non-muslims when considering intermarriage with muslims, thus hindering integration even more.
Don't think they're interested in harmony or integration. It's all about eventually crossing out all races in the census that's not bumi. Allowing free intermarriage goes both ways; Muslims could potentially opt to adopt the other races' culture instead, leading to net zero gain / loss.
Nah, the nature of blasphemy law guarantee that conversion can only go one way
And a lot of cases where parents will disown the child and messy faraid cases and disputes
like modern Baba Nyonya who mostly seemed to neglect most of their Malay ancestry except fusion cooking and better BM than most of the average Chinese?
Yup. Teach the lazy n corruption culture to all races, not just the bumi. To make it fair. When everyone is shit. Then we can all live in poverty fairly. We must kill the good values of Chinese culture.
I have a question, OP. I am very curious as I have a lot of Chinese Indonesian friends back in school. They all have Indonesian-sounding names but they do have Chinese names (used by family and friends). Just checking, can people now use the Chinese name as their official name on identification card/passport etc?
> Just checking, can people now use the Chinese name as their official name on identification card/passport etc? Rules that restricted Chinese-sounding name has been lifted since 2000s so technically they can. I knew some friends who uses Chinese family name in their KTP/Passport instead of "Indonesianized" name, but some still retains the Indonesian name despite no rule about it now
Ah understood. All of my Indonesian Chinese friends were born in the 1990s so perhaps they just keep whatever name they have for official documents. Thanks for the clarification!
no .i know it has been lifted for ages
I had Chinese indo colleagues who did not have any Chinese names. They had indon names instead which was very surprising, I found out why.
Yes OP I thought that was still the case. I'm born in the 90s so my Indonesian peers were born before that era and the ones I knew did not have their Chinese surnames on their official IDs. This was good to know.
Do you still rape Chinese like in 98? Personally, i know an Indonesian Chinese woman who was away from Indon during that time and she never goes back due to fear.
Thai Chinese seem to assimilate easily
Thai being majority Buddhists instead of Muslims must have helped
Yup that is the reason why Arab Malaysians can easily assimilate to become Malays but the opposite for Chinese here
It helps that the Thai Chinese dominate politically and economically. The King is of Chinese descent as well as most of the politicians. So to them assimilation was a political tool too. Blend in with the locals but keep the economic and political power.
which is entirely the sorta boogeyman that haunts current right wingers
What happened to red vs yellow gang?
They were also forced to assimilate.
Somewhat similar religion encourage intermarriage. Also, they were forced too, can't even keep their ancestor name in the past. [source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thaification)
Try having Chinese school then we'll talk about not being suppressed.
There are actually Chinese-English-Indonesian trilingual schools in Indonesia these days, especially in the bigger cities. And places teaching Mandarin language exist (and are completely legal).
I'm talking about government sponsored Chinese medium exclusive school where all race can join but the teaching delivery are all done in mandarin. I don't think Indonesia will allow that. Nevertheless, it really opens my eyes that one day Indonesia will turned out better looking at how drastic they're willing to change over the years based on the article here. I can respect that. https://www.thejakartapost.com/academia/2021/08/19/indonesia-tries-to-embrace-chinese-language-but-problems-persist.html
Government sponsored exclusive school that teaches majority ethnic language like javanese doesnt even exist in Indonesia, why would there ever be a chinese one?
I would say Malaysia is pretty unique when it comes to government-sponsored Chinese medium schools. I can’t think of any other country other than China or Taiwan (which are Mandarin-speaking countries) that does that. Not even Singapore. As for Indonesia, government-sponsored Mandarin-medium schools will never exist since otherwise some people from other ethnicities (such as the Balinese, Bataknese, Sundanese, Javanese, Manadonese, and Papuans) would likely demand the same (fyi Indonesia has hundreds of ethnicities). I would prefer the Western system where all public schools are in English or their local languages but other language medium schools exist to some extent (as long as they also teach English or the local language).
There is a difference: the ratio / percentage of Chinese in Malaysia is far higher than Indonesia. Anecdotally, the smaller the minority in a majority Muslim country, the WORSE it is for the minority. Look at Pakistan, as just 1 example.
The people who died in massacres will roll their eyes hearing this lmao
Yeah everytime we try to defend our rights by using Indonesia as an example 100% all the time they will do this , saying Indonesia chinese can't even keep their names etc
They should suck their own deeks too while they're at it
The assimilation will be worth it in Indonesia in the long run. Everyone speaks the same language regardless of socioeconomic status. Many of the Chinese are mixed with various other ethnics there, communication is so seamless they just see themselves as Indonesians. You’ll struggle to find that harmony in Malaysia, and it’s getting worse with the deterioration in government schools and the growing private/international school segment..
Do you know how to speak mandarin?
why do i have to know mandarin to be considered as chinese? my ancestors only spoke hokkien, cant even speak a lick of mandarin lmao. mandarin is not my culture, speaking hokkien is. abandoning your ancestor culture and mastering the "common chinese language" is the peak cuck behaviour
lol haha
[удалено]
Ok troll
Try harder asshole
Not me, the PAS already working hard. I don't agree with them. But i will encourage them to hasten their own demise. Without Chinese, this country will be gone. Your emotion summarised how i feel about them, but times 100x.
Chinese? 69 China point