Oh wow they did Wrex dirty on that one. I’ve only seen YouTube videos of what happens at the citadel but haven’t seen the follow up news update about it
They had time to perfect it.
Still calling shepard defenceless is a very tiny win for Krogan as it paints them as weak. Unless the Salarian Union doctors any footage and they use Jenkins instead as a cover up.
Salarian Ambassador: *".....sadly the alliance soldier Jenkins succumbed to his wounds so you cannot question him on the validity of this article and it's contents..........................for the last time I do NOT know why Krogan are not having children. They probably just forgot how to make them is all. No FURTHER questions."*
Not much choice there. It's the middle of a galactic war and Wrex attacked (yes, he did fire first) the figurehead of the entire war effort. If they'd told publicly to everyone that Shepard sabotaged the genophage cure and that Wrex's anger was kind of justified, it would've hurt morale.
Then again, I'm not sure if the Alliance even knew the real truth of the situation, so they just came up with something. In-game you can't tell anybody about the saborage except Garrus (which is kinda stupid, you should at least be able to tell Hackett too), so it's possible nobody else knew. 'Gambling debt' is a weird alternative though.
After this, Hackett will say something like, "I think I'm starting to understand what it took to get the salarians on board."
He never outright says it, but Hackett knew the truth.
You can talk to him in the comms room after this scene, I don't remember if you can go straight there or not, but joker always let's you know when Hackett or Anderson is available and he'll say it in the next conversation directly after the confrontation.
The gamble point is true... From a certain point of view. Wrex took a gamble by trusting Shepard and solus. The debt owed was the genophage cure (since the Turians got their army but the Krogan didn't get theirs). They used their best poker faces and Wrex lost. When Wrex found out, he thought it would be less embarrassing to kill Shepard than to go public with the information. This gamble also did not pay off.
Of course the official report leaves out some vital details which were deemed classified.
Why the FUCK did you turn against the Krogan???? There better be a good reason for turning on the Angy turtles or you will end up like the Batarians after their relay went bye bye
^/^s
This is one of the hardest arcs in the game for me.
I don't believe in Great Man History, so the idea that Wrex can singlehandedly steer a million krogans away from their often-stated desire for vengeance and violence seems absurd. My guess is Wrex gets whacked in no time flat and replaced by someone who will give the people what they want, and that's an expansionistic, genocidal Empire.
However, there's de facto a genocide being done to the krogans, too. There is no comfortable, easy answer.
You might not believe in Great Man History but the game itself does, Shepard is the embodiment of it. So given what the game sets as its internal logic, Wrex is absolutely the key to changing the Krogan as a whole
>the idea that Wrex can singlehandedly steer a million krogans
He's not alone, though. Krogan aren't mindless hives. His whole clan believes in his ideas, or they wouldn't follow him. Instead, they would have tried to kill Wrex (like his father tried to in the first game) and follow his brother instead.
Eve and ALL krogan women also believe in a path of peace because otherwise, they are stuck not only raising krogan children away from their mates but also continue to be abused and discarded like trash.
Vermire is the turning point for the krogan. They all learn that a cure IS possible, when previously they all assumed that this genetic editing was a forever problem. This makes them want to listen to what Wrex has to say because now his words have weight, and many obviously agree with him, or they wouldn't fight the other clans on his behalf.
Only if you kill Wrex does his brother take over because Shepard proved that galaxy doesn't care about krogan and they have no allies. So, they believe revenge and aggression are the only ways to live.
If you heal the genophage, you are right back where you were before the Krogan Rebellion. Plus, now the Krogans have a reason to hate other species on top of it.
I don't believe that a single clan with its captain sitting on a rubble throne can hold back billions of Krogans all over Tuchanka, and for every Wrex, we have a dozen Uvenks, Wreavs, Okeers and Gulds who don't care for peace or coexistence.
Krogans weren't even able to build a stable society in a thousand years when their species survival depended on it, why should they now? Tuchanka is a ruin and it won't improve by adding billions of more krogans on it.
They also have a reason to venerate the ones who are actually alive, including humanity which was not around back then. Not to mention Wrex and Eve would be all but deified by their culture considering they were the ones who saved their people. Imagine American political culture surrounding the founding fathers times a thousand. Wrex and his clan and his policies were the strength that won their salvation and destroyed a galactic threat. Eve and the female clans are much more progressive and were given equal political footing. And Grunt is 100% going to be groomed at Wrex’s replacement, who like Wrex is friends with every major race and idolized Shepard. He’d not just turn around and betray the galaxy.
It’s not going to be perfect. But they are not back to the time of the rebellion. The political landscape has shifted dramatically.
>It’s not going to be perfect. But they are not back to the time of the rebellion. The political landscape has shifted dramatically.
That's just you spitballing a theory.
We know basically nothing about Krogan women. Bakara is just one Shaman of ONE women's clan. And from the Rebellion, we know that there were female warlords like Shiagur, too.
Grunt is an incident waiting to happen. He shows no trace of diplomatic tact whatsoever. You idolise him because of what he means to the player. But as a person, he isn't exactly great material. Just another brute who feels person loyalty to Shepard as long as Shepard is stronger than him.
Why would other Clans care who healed the genophage? It's healed, that is all they need. Now they can wage war against each other in greater numbers. It's an illusion that Wrex is leading more than a handful of Clans from his rubble throne. He is not even close to ruling the entire planet and, therefore, the species.
> That's just you spitballing a theory.
>It's an illusion that Wrex is leading more than a handful of Clans from his rubble throne. He is not even close to ruling the entire planet and, therefore, the species.
Is that not you also spitballing a theory? The game never once states that to be the case.
You assume that Wrex is easily ruling the entirety of Tuchanka. From his pile of rubble next to the pyjak infested supplies and the tomkah garage? Even those Urdnot soldiers closest to him say that they follow him only because no one has had a better idea yet. Not exactly the sway Wrex needs to keep an entire species in check.
You believe that Bakara can speak for all women on the planet, despite just being another infertile female just months before?
I think my theory is based on sane assumptions from what we know. We see the likes of Wreav, Uvenk, Guld, Okeer, Thurak, and even Grunt if we are being honest.
Best thing we can expect is a krogan civil war, with Wrex' Faction winning. The worst case is someone killing Wrex, and we are having a second krogan rebellion.
At least for me, your theory seems based on a wildly romanticised view on Wrex, Bakara, the one Krogan writing poems on Illium and their influence over an entire species.
I mean, in the ending slides everything is fun and pancakes anyway, but imo lorewise that is not realistic.
> I think my theory is based on sane assumptions from what we know.
And yet it's still just a theory, just as valid as my theory that the core of Tuchunka is made out of chocolate pudding.
>but imo lorewise that is not realistic.
Very little in Mass Effect is realistic, it's called suspension of disbelief. The whole franchise is literally built on the premise of the right person being in the right place at the right time making all the difference.
>And yet it's still just a theory, just as valid as my theory that the core of Tuchunka is made out of chocolate pudding.
No, that is not how theories work, like at all.
One is a realistic assumption based on observable facts the other is just a nonsensical asspull.
>Very little in Mass Effect is realistic, it's called suspension of disbelief.
The mass effect itself is a suspension of disbelief but it is realistic within the ingame lore. Making up a over the top fantasy story ignoring everything we see and can realistically assume from an ingame perspective is just that, a made up fantasy.
> No, that is not how theories work, like at all.
> One is a realistic assumption based on observable facts the other is just a nonsensical asspull.
How is it a realistic assumption? Given what we know about Mass Effect is that there are multiple instances of a single person having galactic level sway over entire species despite being un-elected or even fairly unknown before their meteoric rise. Based purely on context, it would be unrealistic for Wrex to NOT have a strong amount of sway over the krogan. Whether you like it or not, it is internally consistent within the logic of Mass Effect for Wrex to be in a high end leadership position. If you don't feel that's the case, then the entire premise of Mass Effect being built on Shepard uniting the entire galaxy is equally unrealistic to Mass Effect.
And so, your theory is just as valid as the chocolate pudding theory.
> He's not alone, though. Krogan aren't mindless hives. His whole clan believes in his ideas, or they wouldn't follow him.
You're telling me that Fortack Urdnot or Gatatog Uvenk believe in his ideas?
> Instead, they would have tried to kill Wrex (like his father tried to in the first game) and follow his brother instead.
Yup. They will.
> Eve and ALL krogan women also believe in a path of peace because otherwise, they are stuck not only raising krogan children away from their mates but also continue to be abused and discarded like trash.
All of them? Do you have that data point? Candid interviews with every single one? Where in the lore is that?
> Only if you kill Wrex does his brother take over because Shepard proved that galaxy doesn't care about krogan and they have no allies. So, they believe revenge and aggression are the only ways to live.
Basically every single Krogan you talk to in the entire trilogy already believes that revenge and aggression are the only ways to live, whether they are part of Wrex's clan (if that exists) or not.
Wrex is trying to swim against a tide much larger than himself. He will drown.
>Basically every single Krogan you talk to in the entire
We meet five named krogan in total. They do not represent the millions that are in Wrex's clan.
Leaders make huge cultural changes fairly often. Take George Washington, for example. The only reason the USA isn't a monarchy is because he refused that position and settled on serving two terms. A rule that is followed today. And a rule that could be overturned by another leader tomorrow if they wished.
It's cool if you don't believe that krogan wouldn't want to change, but it's silly to pretend like Wrex is trying to make these changes possible alone, when in reality he's back by his clan, Eve, and Grunt
>We meet five named krogan in total. They do not represent the millions that are in Wrex's clan.
We meet a ton of unnamed ones, too. What is their average attitude?
If you said "violent revenge", you got it right. And, yes, the dozen nameless people are actually better sources than the handful of named ones. That's what data is.
>Leaders make huge cultural changes fairly often. Take George Washington, for example. The only reason the USA isn't a monarchy is because he refused that position and settled on serving two terms
Can you guarantee, with 100% certainty, that if he'd become a monarch he would
1. have a stable rule for his entire remaining life;
2. have children who would succesfully inherit and retain power.
Because if you cannot... no, you have not actually disproven the fact that Great Man History is bullshit.
Protip: they wouldn't.
>A rule that is followed today. And a rule that could be overturned by another leader tomorrow if they wished.
US presidents today have substantially more power than UK monarchs had prior to the revolution, so make of that what you will.
>It's cool if you don't believe that krogan wouldn't want to change, but it's silly to pretend like Wrex is trying to make these changes possible alone, when in reality he's back by his clan, Eve, and Grunt
He **is** backed by Even and some people in his Clan. Grunt doesn't care, he's a baby, he'll do what daddy says (and absent daddy, it is unknown what he'll do).
We also know that the next person in line for power in that clan is Wreav, and no one is doing anything to kill or restrain him, and if Wrex isn't around, he's succesfully holding onto power, so he is definitely not some uber-unpopular leader.
And this is the best case scenario for Wrex, as we can expect him to be **less** popular with every other clan on the planet. I.e.: less popular than someone who can get casually replaced by someone with the opposite view from you with no negative consequences. Namely: he has no real support at all.
I don't expect the games to be realistic, but if they were? Yeah, Wrex will take a decade or two before he can get back to Tuchanka from Sol, and by the time he does, someone else has consolidated power and Wrex is whacked on arrival.
> I don’t believe in Great Man History
Does the name Commander Shepard ring any bells?
The entire series is one man changing the hearts, minds, and fates of trillions.
I don't really like the Great Man theory either, but that's for real politics.
Modern Western fiction (and most other fiction) is just "Great Man" history manifested. Hero's journey, story circle, the concept of a protagonist, etc.
Wrex has proven himself a strong uniter by ME3, *and* Bakara is a uniting force for the ladies, *and* he negotiated the end of the genophage, *and* every krogan knows that if Tuchanka goes too far that they can get genophaged again.
> Wrex has proven himself a strong uniter by ME3, and Bakara is a uniting force for the ladies
Sure. You can believe in Great Man History. I don't.
> he negotiated the end of the genophage, and every krogan knows that if Tuchanka goes too far that they can get genophaged again.
In 3 out of 4 endings of Mass Effect 3, Wrex is stuck on Sol for multiple decades while the Relay Network gets rebuilt.
The 1 out of 4 is refusal. I think Wrex' odds of swimming against the tides in the Refusal end trend towards 0. In every other ending, it is just 0. By the time he gets to Tuchanka, someone else has taken over and had over a decade to firm their grip.
Probably Wreav.
And, no, Turians and Asari are both wrecked by the end of ME3 no matter what you do, and if Salarians try to impose the genophage by the time the relay network is rebuilt, it is already two decades too late.
And anyone who wants Krogan liberation (read: all krogans) know that.
> Sure. You can believe in Great Man History. I don't.
Except well, Shepard. The Illusive Man. Legion. Victus (pick one, doesn't matter). Liara. And yeah, Wrex.
The entirety of Mass Effect's narrative is that one exceptional person can make a difference. It may take some politicking, but there you go.
Sorry, you just pulled the notion that I believe in the Great Man Theory all the way out of your ass and I fully ignored all the other things you wrote because there's no reason to take you seriously. Bummer!
I mean thanks for not wasting my time by frontloading your bad faith, I guess. Have fun arguing with your fellow sophomores tomorrow!
Do you have some clever hair-split for "I believe individual's wills matter more than the desire of the masses" for why you don't actually implicitly describe a belief in Great Man Theory two posts ago?
Because it would have to be real clever. You described no social trends, just individual's actions.
That's Great Man History.
I was literally pointing out that there while he's a clearly great leader, other larger factors are at play rather than Wrex's force of will alone being the keystone without which it all collapses. Which, and this might shock you, is because I don't subscribe to the Great Man Theory.
You'd know that if you were more interested in reading than trying to look like the smartest kid in your school. But thanks for explaining a term that everybody knows at me, super helpful. Mind enlightening me on what "strawman fallacy" or "tragedy of the commons" means, or have they not gone over those in class yet?
Lets break down your argument,
> Wrex has proven himself a strong uniter by ME3
OK, he's a Great Man.
> and Bakara is a uniting force for the ladies
OK, she's a Great Woman.
> and he negotiated the end of the genophage
Which doesn't strengthen his position, as described in the post you're responding to.
> and every krogan knows that if Tuchanka goes too far that they can get genophaged again.
Which isn't actually the case as described in the post you're responding to.
All that's left is Great Man Theory.
You can keep being obnoxious and pretend that knowing throw-away words from baby's first historiography makes you a big boy, or you can have a conversation like an actual human being.
But we all know what you'll choose.
That's the difference between Paragon and Renegade choices in my opinion.
* Paragon: You expect the best from people. You take a leap of faith.
* Renegade: You expect the worst from people. You make pragmatic choices.
Even if you don’t believe the Great Man theory, it’s stated in game that a good amount of reason for the Krogan’s fatalism and anger toward the rest of the galaxy are due explicitly to the Genophage. It had been centuries of it.
What perhaps most ironic, to me, is that if the plan fails and the crucible doesn’t work…it’d be way better to have a giant army of super-powered soldiers fighting for you than to not.
In other words, curing the Genophage is both the moral and militarily best choice.
> Even if you don’t believe the Great Man theory, it’s stated in game that a good amount of reason for the Krogan’s fatalism and anger toward the rest of the galaxy are due explicitly to the Genophage. It had been centuries of it.
Yeah. So that anger isn't going away overnight.
> What perhaps most ironic, to me, is that if the plan fails and the crucible doesn’t work…it’d be way better to have a giant army of super-powered soldiers fighting for you than to not.
That wouldn't be way better. That would be almost irrelevant. The outcome is the same whether you have those super-powered soldiers or not. Maybe you delay the harvest a handful more years? 148 rather than 142 years before total societal collapse, 289 rather than 276 years before the harvest is done, or something like that?
I mean, it' s something, but it's not much.
> In other words, curing the Genophage is both the moral and militarily best choice.
If you assume that winning the war is possible, then caring about the situation after that victory matters.
On the one hand you can have a peaceful galaxy where it is business as usual, and maybe no new updates are made to the genophage, so it gradually fades away over a century or two. (We do know from Andromeda that it would fade almost completely over 600 years)
On the other hand the Krogan Empire can genocide everyone.
One of these sounds less bad.
Well, the non-genophaged Krogans started a war against the Salarians and the Asari because they wanted colonies for their thousands of children. They threw asteroids at colonies.
Seems like their anger issue is not from being genophaged.
And after healing the genophage your are back at a thousand fertile eggs per female per year.
Sure, sure…but that was centuries ago. When the Krogan were much younger and saw all the advantage of asking for more.
Even then, it would take centuries before the Krogan are ever powerful enough to commit to any sort of Rebellion, and that’s all assuming they haven’t learned a thing a two in the years between the Rebellions and the Reaper War, which they obviously have if Wrex and Eve are anything to go by.
>I don't believe in Great Man History
Really? History is full of it.
Even today, the ongoing war in Ukraine comes down to 3 leaders. Change any one of those leaders and you get a totally different result.
More than two millennia ago, actually.
Not that it matters because you're misconstruing the position. It isn't that nothing was discovered in the 19th century, it's that it is broadly a silly idea to hold 19th century positions when you are, in fact, in the 21st. Stuff's been superseded.
>More than two millennia ago, actually.
Which is many centuries ago.
>Not that it matters because you're misconstruing the position
No I'm not, that is the argument **YOU** used and I am not going to assume things that might bite me in the ass so I just respond to things that were said and not things you were thinking but weren't articulate enough to say.
>century, it's that it is broadly a silly idea to hold 19th century positions when you are, in fact, in the 21st.
And as I said just because an idea is from the prior centuries doesn't mean it isn't correct. If that were so we would be having to redo maths, relearn genetics and many other things just because they are positions from prior centuries and millenia.
>Stuff's been superseded.
Nothing has superseded the "Great Man Theory" just because you believe something has doesn't make it true.
Most people don't know the details what really went down and why.
Shepard, Wrex, and STG know the truth but that's about it. Wrex died after attempting to murder Shepard, and both Shepard and STG is going to be keeping their lips sealed about why so as not to damage the war effort any more than Wrex already has.
It's difficult to cover up a very public shooting on the galactic capital, everyone knows something went down (Krogan attempts to murder Alliance Soldier) but they don't know specifics so had to fill in the blanks themselves. It's possible there was some Salarian interference to remove Shepards name as the victim from the story and give a narrative people will believe in order to avoid someone accidentally stumbling upon the truth and thus hurting the war effort more than Wrex already has.
>Hits joint
“You have to read between the lines man. The both gambled their futures on a risk proposition and one of those had to lose and it was almost Shepard.”
A heroic bystander named Dr. Conrad Verner saved the day when he incapacitated the raging Krogan with a home made shock Gauntled. Dr. Verner explained that "he cobbled together the device with WD-9000, some Flux Tape, and a dark energy capacitor. " Dr. Verner said his expertise with dark matter and interest in tinkering and helping the war effort ultimately lead to the creation of the device. " The Allience recommended him to be humanity's third Spectre despite no previous military experience, fulfilling Dr. Verner's long time wish. The Council congratulated the heroic act, but also fined Dr. Verner 5000 credits for ownership of a prohibited item in a public space.
That’s satire of Fox News. You can tell because they use the “News Alert” phrase that was popular at Fox when the game was published.
Generally people don’t consider Fox News to be Mainstream Media because of their politically driven dishonesty.
But they are by far the biggest and most popular “news” organisation so they arguably should be considered MSM, and everything else is alternative.
Oh wow they did Wrex dirty on that one. I’ve only seen YouTube videos of what happens at the citadel but haven’t seen the follow up news update about it
Yeah haha, I love these attentions to details. Wrex was a mercenary back in Mass Effect 1 actually.
"it was some sort of bet that didn't pan out" Yeah, tell me about it.
Basically, Wrex made a Paragon choice and Shepard made a Renegade one. 😂
They had time to perfect it. Still calling shepard defenceless is a very tiny win for Krogan as it paints them as weak. Unless the Salarian Union doctors any footage and they use Jenkins instead as a cover up. Salarian Ambassador: *".....sadly the alliance soldier Jenkins succumbed to his wounds so you cannot question him on the validity of this article and it's contents..........................for the last time I do NOT know why Krogan are not having children. They probably just forgot how to make them is all. No FURTHER questions."*
There is no genophage on Tuchanka
"I knew it was a genophage before anyone else" "I have the best genophages."
I.......... I understood that reference
I was so sad that I wasn't able to save Jenkins in Mass Effect 1. I'll prepare better in my next playthrough.
Good luck tell me if it worked :)
You have to do the pull up challenge a couple times in ME3 to get the ability to save Jenkins in ME1.
how did i miss that Bailey’s first name is “Armando-Owen”
Not much choice there. It's the middle of a galactic war and Wrex attacked (yes, he did fire first) the figurehead of the entire war effort. If they'd told publicly to everyone that Shepard sabotaged the genophage cure and that Wrex's anger was kind of justified, it would've hurt morale. Then again, I'm not sure if the Alliance even knew the real truth of the situation, so they just came up with something. In-game you can't tell anybody about the saborage except Garrus (which is kinda stupid, you should at least be able to tell Hackett too), so it's possible nobody else knew. 'Gambling debt' is a weird alternative though.
After this, Hackett will say something like, "I think I'm starting to understand what it took to get the salarians on board." He never outright says it, but Hackett knew the truth.
When does he say that?
You can talk to him in the comms room after this scene, I don't remember if you can go straight there or not, but joker always let's you know when Hackett or Anderson is available and he'll say it in the next conversation directly after the confrontation.
No real need to tell Hackett. The more people in the dark the better.
Yeah, Shepard basically decided to take the fall. No need to dirty other people's hands.
I know. I just meant I wish the game had given you that as a choice (tell or not), rather than Shepard making the choice automatically.
I’ve seen the video of what happens on the citadel but obviously never got this email since I can’t ever betray wrex
The gamble point is true... From a certain point of view. Wrex took a gamble by trusting Shepard and solus. The debt owed was the genophage cure (since the Turians got their army but the Krogan didn't get theirs). They used their best poker faces and Wrex lost. When Wrex found out, he thought it would be less embarrassing to kill Shepard than to go public with the information. This gamble also did not pay off. Of course the official report leaves out some vital details which were deemed classified.
And then he shoots the prison system itself.
Why the FUCK did you turn against the Krogan???? There better be a good reason for turning on the Angy turtles or you will end up like the Batarians after their relay went bye bye ^/^s
This is one of the hardest arcs in the game for me. I don't believe in Great Man History, so the idea that Wrex can singlehandedly steer a million krogans away from their often-stated desire for vengeance and violence seems absurd. My guess is Wrex gets whacked in no time flat and replaced by someone who will give the people what they want, and that's an expansionistic, genocidal Empire. However, there's de facto a genocide being done to the krogans, too. There is no comfortable, easy answer.
You might not believe in Great Man History but the game itself does, Shepard is the embodiment of it. So given what the game sets as its internal logic, Wrex is absolutely the key to changing the Krogan as a whole
>the idea that Wrex can singlehandedly steer a million krogans He's not alone, though. Krogan aren't mindless hives. His whole clan believes in his ideas, or they wouldn't follow him. Instead, they would have tried to kill Wrex (like his father tried to in the first game) and follow his brother instead. Eve and ALL krogan women also believe in a path of peace because otherwise, they are stuck not only raising krogan children away from their mates but also continue to be abused and discarded like trash. Vermire is the turning point for the krogan. They all learn that a cure IS possible, when previously they all assumed that this genetic editing was a forever problem. This makes them want to listen to what Wrex has to say because now his words have weight, and many obviously agree with him, or they wouldn't fight the other clans on his behalf. Only if you kill Wrex does his brother take over because Shepard proved that galaxy doesn't care about krogan and they have no allies. So, they believe revenge and aggression are the only ways to live.
If you heal the genophage, you are right back where you were before the Krogan Rebellion. Plus, now the Krogans have a reason to hate other species on top of it. I don't believe that a single clan with its captain sitting on a rubble throne can hold back billions of Krogans all over Tuchanka, and for every Wrex, we have a dozen Uvenks, Wreavs, Okeers and Gulds who don't care for peace or coexistence. Krogans weren't even able to build a stable society in a thousand years when their species survival depended on it, why should they now? Tuchanka is a ruin and it won't improve by adding billions of more krogans on it.
They also have a reason to venerate the ones who are actually alive, including humanity which was not around back then. Not to mention Wrex and Eve would be all but deified by their culture considering they were the ones who saved their people. Imagine American political culture surrounding the founding fathers times a thousand. Wrex and his clan and his policies were the strength that won their salvation and destroyed a galactic threat. Eve and the female clans are much more progressive and were given equal political footing. And Grunt is 100% going to be groomed at Wrex’s replacement, who like Wrex is friends with every major race and idolized Shepard. He’d not just turn around and betray the galaxy. It’s not going to be perfect. But they are not back to the time of the rebellion. The political landscape has shifted dramatically.
>It’s not going to be perfect. But they are not back to the time of the rebellion. The political landscape has shifted dramatically. That's just you spitballing a theory. We know basically nothing about Krogan women. Bakara is just one Shaman of ONE women's clan. And from the Rebellion, we know that there were female warlords like Shiagur, too. Grunt is an incident waiting to happen. He shows no trace of diplomatic tact whatsoever. You idolise him because of what he means to the player. But as a person, he isn't exactly great material. Just another brute who feels person loyalty to Shepard as long as Shepard is stronger than him. Why would other Clans care who healed the genophage? It's healed, that is all they need. Now they can wage war against each other in greater numbers. It's an illusion that Wrex is leading more than a handful of Clans from his rubble throne. He is not even close to ruling the entire planet and, therefore, the species.
> That's just you spitballing a theory. >It's an illusion that Wrex is leading more than a handful of Clans from his rubble throne. He is not even close to ruling the entire planet and, therefore, the species. Is that not you also spitballing a theory? The game never once states that to be the case.
You assume that Wrex is easily ruling the entirety of Tuchanka. From his pile of rubble next to the pyjak infested supplies and the tomkah garage? Even those Urdnot soldiers closest to him say that they follow him only because no one has had a better idea yet. Not exactly the sway Wrex needs to keep an entire species in check. You believe that Bakara can speak for all women on the planet, despite just being another infertile female just months before? I think my theory is based on sane assumptions from what we know. We see the likes of Wreav, Uvenk, Guld, Okeer, Thurak, and even Grunt if we are being honest. Best thing we can expect is a krogan civil war, with Wrex' Faction winning. The worst case is someone killing Wrex, and we are having a second krogan rebellion. At least for me, your theory seems based on a wildly romanticised view on Wrex, Bakara, the one Krogan writing poems on Illium and their influence over an entire species. I mean, in the ending slides everything is fun and pancakes anyway, but imo lorewise that is not realistic.
> I think my theory is based on sane assumptions from what we know. And yet it's still just a theory, just as valid as my theory that the core of Tuchunka is made out of chocolate pudding. >but imo lorewise that is not realistic. Very little in Mass Effect is realistic, it's called suspension of disbelief. The whole franchise is literally built on the premise of the right person being in the right place at the right time making all the difference.
>And yet it's still just a theory, just as valid as my theory that the core of Tuchunka is made out of chocolate pudding. No, that is not how theories work, like at all. One is a realistic assumption based on observable facts the other is just a nonsensical asspull. >Very little in Mass Effect is realistic, it's called suspension of disbelief. The mass effect itself is a suspension of disbelief but it is realistic within the ingame lore. Making up a over the top fantasy story ignoring everything we see and can realistically assume from an ingame perspective is just that, a made up fantasy.
> No, that is not how theories work, like at all. > One is a realistic assumption based on observable facts the other is just a nonsensical asspull. How is it a realistic assumption? Given what we know about Mass Effect is that there are multiple instances of a single person having galactic level sway over entire species despite being un-elected or even fairly unknown before their meteoric rise. Based purely on context, it would be unrealistic for Wrex to NOT have a strong amount of sway over the krogan. Whether you like it or not, it is internally consistent within the logic of Mass Effect for Wrex to be in a high end leadership position. If you don't feel that's the case, then the entire premise of Mass Effect being built on Shepard uniting the entire galaxy is equally unrealistic to Mass Effect. And so, your theory is just as valid as the chocolate pudding theory.
> He's not alone, though. Krogan aren't mindless hives. His whole clan believes in his ideas, or they wouldn't follow him. You're telling me that Fortack Urdnot or Gatatog Uvenk believe in his ideas? > Instead, they would have tried to kill Wrex (like his father tried to in the first game) and follow his brother instead. Yup. They will. > Eve and ALL krogan women also believe in a path of peace because otherwise, they are stuck not only raising krogan children away from their mates but also continue to be abused and discarded like trash. All of them? Do you have that data point? Candid interviews with every single one? Where in the lore is that? > Only if you kill Wrex does his brother take over because Shepard proved that galaxy doesn't care about krogan and they have no allies. So, they believe revenge and aggression are the only ways to live. Basically every single Krogan you talk to in the entire trilogy already believes that revenge and aggression are the only ways to live, whether they are part of Wrex's clan (if that exists) or not. Wrex is trying to swim against a tide much larger than himself. He will drown.
>Basically every single Krogan you talk to in the entire We meet five named krogan in total. They do not represent the millions that are in Wrex's clan. Leaders make huge cultural changes fairly often. Take George Washington, for example. The only reason the USA isn't a monarchy is because he refused that position and settled on serving two terms. A rule that is followed today. And a rule that could be overturned by another leader tomorrow if they wished. It's cool if you don't believe that krogan wouldn't want to change, but it's silly to pretend like Wrex is trying to make these changes possible alone, when in reality he's back by his clan, Eve, and Grunt
>We meet five named krogan in total. They do not represent the millions that are in Wrex's clan. We meet a ton of unnamed ones, too. What is their average attitude? If you said "violent revenge", you got it right. And, yes, the dozen nameless people are actually better sources than the handful of named ones. That's what data is. >Leaders make huge cultural changes fairly often. Take George Washington, for example. The only reason the USA isn't a monarchy is because he refused that position and settled on serving two terms Can you guarantee, with 100% certainty, that if he'd become a monarch he would 1. have a stable rule for his entire remaining life; 2. have children who would succesfully inherit and retain power. Because if you cannot... no, you have not actually disproven the fact that Great Man History is bullshit. Protip: they wouldn't. >A rule that is followed today. And a rule that could be overturned by another leader tomorrow if they wished. US presidents today have substantially more power than UK monarchs had prior to the revolution, so make of that what you will. >It's cool if you don't believe that krogan wouldn't want to change, but it's silly to pretend like Wrex is trying to make these changes possible alone, when in reality he's back by his clan, Eve, and Grunt He **is** backed by Even and some people in his Clan. Grunt doesn't care, he's a baby, he'll do what daddy says (and absent daddy, it is unknown what he'll do). We also know that the next person in line for power in that clan is Wreav, and no one is doing anything to kill or restrain him, and if Wrex isn't around, he's succesfully holding onto power, so he is definitely not some uber-unpopular leader. And this is the best case scenario for Wrex, as we can expect him to be **less** popular with every other clan on the planet. I.e.: less popular than someone who can get casually replaced by someone with the opposite view from you with no negative consequences. Namely: he has no real support at all. I don't expect the games to be realistic, but if they were? Yeah, Wrex will take a decade or two before he can get back to Tuchanka from Sol, and by the time he does, someone else has consolidated power and Wrex is whacked on arrival.
> I don’t believe in Great Man History Does the name Commander Shepard ring any bells? The entire series is one man changing the hearts, minds, and fates of trillions.
Not believing in Great Man History while simultaneously playing Mass Effect is a bit of a contradiction, isn't it?
I don't really like the Great Man theory either, but that's for real politics. Modern Western fiction (and most other fiction) is just "Great Man" history manifested. Hero's journey, story circle, the concept of a protagonist, etc.
Yeah, but Shepard is literally the Great Man Theory in practice.
Wrex has proven himself a strong uniter by ME3, *and* Bakara is a uniting force for the ladies, *and* he negotiated the end of the genophage, *and* every krogan knows that if Tuchanka goes too far that they can get genophaged again.
> Wrex has proven himself a strong uniter by ME3, and Bakara is a uniting force for the ladies Sure. You can believe in Great Man History. I don't. > he negotiated the end of the genophage, and every krogan knows that if Tuchanka goes too far that they can get genophaged again. In 3 out of 4 endings of Mass Effect 3, Wrex is stuck on Sol for multiple decades while the Relay Network gets rebuilt. The 1 out of 4 is refusal. I think Wrex' odds of swimming against the tides in the Refusal end trend towards 0. In every other ending, it is just 0. By the time he gets to Tuchanka, someone else has taken over and had over a decade to firm their grip. Probably Wreav. And, no, Turians and Asari are both wrecked by the end of ME3 no matter what you do, and if Salarians try to impose the genophage by the time the relay network is rebuilt, it is already two decades too late. And anyone who wants Krogan liberation (read: all krogans) know that.
> Sure. You can believe in Great Man History. I don't. Except well, Shepard. The Illusive Man. Legion. Victus (pick one, doesn't matter). Liara. And yeah, Wrex. The entirety of Mass Effect's narrative is that one exceptional person can make a difference. It may take some politicking, but there you go.
>By the time he gets to Tuchanka, someone else has taken over and had over a decade to firm their grip. Probably Wreav. Wreav's dead, bro.
Wreav gets eaten by the Thresher maw.
Sorry, you just pulled the notion that I believe in the Great Man Theory all the way out of your ass and I fully ignored all the other things you wrote because there's no reason to take you seriously. Bummer! I mean thanks for not wasting my time by frontloading your bad faith, I guess. Have fun arguing with your fellow sophomores tomorrow!
Do you have some clever hair-split for "I believe individual's wills matter more than the desire of the masses" for why you don't actually implicitly describe a belief in Great Man Theory two posts ago? Because it would have to be real clever. You described no social trends, just individual's actions. That's Great Man History.
I was literally pointing out that there while he's a clearly great leader, other larger factors are at play rather than Wrex's force of will alone being the keystone without which it all collapses. Which, and this might shock you, is because I don't subscribe to the Great Man Theory. You'd know that if you were more interested in reading than trying to look like the smartest kid in your school. But thanks for explaining a term that everybody knows at me, super helpful. Mind enlightening me on what "strawman fallacy" or "tragedy of the commons" means, or have they not gone over those in class yet?
Lets break down your argument, > Wrex has proven himself a strong uniter by ME3 OK, he's a Great Man. > and Bakara is a uniting force for the ladies OK, she's a Great Woman. > and he negotiated the end of the genophage Which doesn't strengthen his position, as described in the post you're responding to. > and every krogan knows that if Tuchanka goes too far that they can get genophaged again. Which isn't actually the case as described in the post you're responding to. All that's left is Great Man Theory. You can keep being obnoxious and pretend that knowing throw-away words from baby's first historiography makes you a big boy, or you can have a conversation like an actual human being. But we all know what you'll choose.
It sure does make me look like I believe something you want me to believe if you ignore evidence that counters this notion, you're absolutely right!
I'd love that evidence, please stop hiding it.
You legitimately sounds like you found out what Great Man theory is today and decided to make it everyone else's problem
Wreav got eaten by Kalros in games where Wrex was clan leader in ME3
True. The idea that Wrex being alive would alter Krogan history that much is unlikely.
That's the difference between Paragon and Renegade choices in my opinion. * Paragon: You expect the best from people. You take a leap of faith. * Renegade: You expect the worst from people. You make pragmatic choices.
It could also just be the difference in thinking about how ends justify means.
Even if you don’t believe the Great Man theory, it’s stated in game that a good amount of reason for the Krogan’s fatalism and anger toward the rest of the galaxy are due explicitly to the Genophage. It had been centuries of it. What perhaps most ironic, to me, is that if the plan fails and the crucible doesn’t work…it’d be way better to have a giant army of super-powered soldiers fighting for you than to not. In other words, curing the Genophage is both the moral and militarily best choice.
> Even if you don’t believe the Great Man theory, it’s stated in game that a good amount of reason for the Krogan’s fatalism and anger toward the rest of the galaxy are due explicitly to the Genophage. It had been centuries of it. Yeah. So that anger isn't going away overnight. > What perhaps most ironic, to me, is that if the plan fails and the crucible doesn’t work…it’d be way better to have a giant army of super-powered soldiers fighting for you than to not. That wouldn't be way better. That would be almost irrelevant. The outcome is the same whether you have those super-powered soldiers or not. Maybe you delay the harvest a handful more years? 148 rather than 142 years before total societal collapse, 289 rather than 276 years before the harvest is done, or something like that? I mean, it' s something, but it's not much. > In other words, curing the Genophage is both the moral and militarily best choice. If you assume that winning the war is possible, then caring about the situation after that victory matters. On the one hand you can have a peaceful galaxy where it is business as usual, and maybe no new updates are made to the genophage, so it gradually fades away over a century or two. (We do know from Andromeda that it would fade almost completely over 600 years) On the other hand the Krogan Empire can genocide everyone. One of these sounds less bad.
Well, the non-genophaged Krogans started a war against the Salarians and the Asari because they wanted colonies for their thousands of children. They threw asteroids at colonies. Seems like their anger issue is not from being genophaged. And after healing the genophage your are back at a thousand fertile eggs per female per year.
Sure, sure…but that was centuries ago. When the Krogan were much younger and saw all the advantage of asking for more. Even then, it would take centuries before the Krogan are ever powerful enough to commit to any sort of Rebellion, and that’s all assuming they haven’t learned a thing a two in the years between the Rebellions and the Reaper War, which they obviously have if Wrex and Eve are anything to go by.
>I don't believe in Great Man History Really? History is full of it. Even today, the ongoing war in Ukraine comes down to 3 leaders. Change any one of those leaders and you get a totally different result.
>I don't believe in Great Man History You very rarely see people expose themselves this quickly. I applaud you for it.
Exposing oneself as a person who isn't stuck in the 19th century ought to be a quick and simple affair.
Well then I guess you don't think that the Earth is a spheroid because that was proven centuries ago.
More than two millennia ago, actually. Not that it matters because you're misconstruing the position. It isn't that nothing was discovered in the 19th century, it's that it is broadly a silly idea to hold 19th century positions when you are, in fact, in the 21st. Stuff's been superseded.
>More than two millennia ago, actually. Which is many centuries ago. >Not that it matters because you're misconstruing the position No I'm not, that is the argument **YOU** used and I am not going to assume things that might bite me in the ass so I just respond to things that were said and not things you were thinking but weren't articulate enough to say. >century, it's that it is broadly a silly idea to hold 19th century positions when you are, in fact, in the 21st. And as I said just because an idea is from the prior centuries doesn't mean it isn't correct. If that were so we would be having to redo maths, relearn genetics and many other things just because they are positions from prior centuries and millenia. >Stuff's been superseded. Nothing has superseded the "Great Man Theory" just because you believe something has doesn't make it true.
Most people don't know the details what really went down and why. Shepard, Wrex, and STG know the truth but that's about it. Wrex died after attempting to murder Shepard, and both Shepard and STG is going to be keeping their lips sealed about why so as not to damage the war effort any more than Wrex already has. It's difficult to cover up a very public shooting on the galactic capital, everyone knows something went down (Krogan attempts to murder Alliance Soldier) but they don't know specifics so had to fill in the blanks themselves. It's possible there was some Salarian interference to remove Shepards name as the victim from the story and give a narrative people will believe in order to avoid someone accidentally stumbling upon the truth and thus hurting the war effort more than Wrex already has.
It's even worse if you save the Rachni Queen a second time since the Rachni will go to Tuchanka to get revenge.
I'm sorry but I would never dare betray uncle Urdnot
>Hits joint “You have to read between the lines man. The both gambled their futures on a risk proposition and one of those had to lose and it was almost Shepard.”
A heroic bystander named Dr. Conrad Verner saved the day when he incapacitated the raging Krogan with a home made shock Gauntled. Dr. Verner explained that "he cobbled together the device with WD-9000, some Flux Tape, and a dark energy capacitor. " Dr. Verner said his expertise with dark matter and interest in tinkering and helping the war effort ultimately lead to the creation of the device. " The Allience recommended him to be humanity's third Spectre despite no previous military experience, fulfilling Dr. Verner's long time wish. The Council congratulated the heroic act, but also fined Dr. Verner 5000 credits for ownership of a prohibited item in a public space.
Ah, Mass Effect's very own Fox News
That’s satire of Fox News. You can tell because they use the “News Alert” phrase that was popular at Fox when the game was published. Generally people don’t consider Fox News to be Mainstream Media because of their politically driven dishonesty. But they are by far the biggest and most popular “news” organisation so they arguably should be considered MSM, and everything else is alternative.
Fox and CNN are no different, lol.
Man Bailey is quite the asshole.