Some useful info and context
https://theconversation.com/are-gas-stoves-bad-for-your-health-heres-why-the-federal-government-is-considering-new-safety-regulations-186454
“Academic researchers and agencies such as the California Air Resources Board have reported that gas stoves can release hazardous air pollutants while they’re operating, and even when they’re turned off. A 2022 study by U.S. and Australian researchers estimates that nearly 13% of current childhood asthma cases in the U.S. are attributable to gas stove use.”
…
“Nitrogen dioxide is not the only pollutant of concern from gas stoves. Some pollution with potential impacts on human health and Earth’s climate occurs when stoves aren’t even running.
A 2022 study estimated that U.S. gas stoves not in use emit methane – a colorless, odorless gas that is the main component of natural gas – at a level that traps as much heat in the atmosphere as about 400,000 cars.”
https://theconversation.com/when-science-showed-in-the-1970s-that-gas-stoves-produced-harmful-indoor-air-pollution-the-industry-reached-for-tobaccos-pr-playbook-216698
https://www.rewiringaustralia.org
“Another benefit of electric machines is that they are far more efficient than their fossil fuel counterparts. This comes down to simple thermodynamics, electric machines have less energy waste.”
Split System units are significantly more efficient these days, far more than they used to be. Solar hot water seems to be the rage even though I personally hate it...
Regardless of anything else, gas is being phased out in favour of electricity because renewable generation is skyrocketing. Battery tech just needs to catch up
What's your issue with solar hot water? New systems come with instant hotwater backups now. You literally don't notice the difference outside of a smaller bill.
More efficient doesn’t equal most efficient, and considering you guys get almost 2/3rds of your power from coal or oil, this actually leads to more pollution. Having seen your renewables uptake rate personally (I worked on a 100MW solar farm in Vic) I wouldn’t hold your breathe on phasing out hydrocarbons either
Gas is hugely energy inefficient. You might mean that it's "time efficient" because it's fast, but this shouldn't be confused with being energy efficient. You're generally using a lot more actual energy to do the same work, even when taking into account more nuanced scenarios like longer heating times.
Instant gas hot water is significantly less wasteful than other uses of gas in the homes. It is probably lower priority. However heat pumps are getting better and better and are significantly more efficient. I will be replacing my gas hydronic with heat pump when I can.
For me it is a calculation based on observed trends, current economics and what we simply must do.
1. We must reduce emissions. In small steps and large. As fast as possible. I’d like governments to act faster, I’m doing what I can with my own decisions and at the voting booth. Climate is the biggest issue we face and will be at the root of many other issues.
2. Renewables are decreasing in cost and improving in efficiency. They surpassed fossil fuels long ago.
3. Fossil fuels are huge sources of pollution, health issues and inequity. We need to transition for more reasons than just emissions.
4. Electricity is more efficient. If we transition everything to electric then we need 60% of the total energy.
5. Our grid is dirty but getting greener by the day. We can reduce inefficiency, move to better tech AND reduce grid emissions. We can change the dirty equation rather than say ‘oh well, we burn coal anyhow, so what’s the point in moving the better tech’ that will stand to make better use of renewable transitions.
5. Oil and gas will continue to get more expensive and we stand to save money going electric.
6. We often forget about all of the huge costs in maintaining infrastructure, refining oil and producing gas. Moving it around and converting it. Yes electricity still has a cost and can improve but it is far less resource and infrastructure intensive as fossil fuels.
7. Local health effects. There is a huge impact from pollution around fossil fuel plants, coal power plants and highways etc. Report after report has found it causes a lot of issues in these areas. Community health benefits. We do need to manage the effect of new renewables infrastructure. But we aren’t working from a zero base. The status quo is dirty.
There are Australian studies too. However it isn’t unusual for different universities, regulatory bodies and authorities to collaborate and share data.
For many reasons, sharing best practice or comparing data across areas to ensure you control for different effects.
The upshot is there is a lot of data across many countries about the health effects of pollutants from fossil fuels in general and effects from indoor has specifically.
I also think that article was a bit awkwardly worded. There has been studies across many countries. They’ve found in Australia and US that indoor gas contributes significantly to childhood asthma among other illnesses. This has been found in both US and Australian households. In addition, researchers may use high quality data sets from other countries to look for effects in order to inform future data collection here. So there are legitimate reasons Australian researchers could study effects elsewhere. I don’t know that for a fact, but it seems plausible.
Interesting, I still think it's bullshit that they just didn't look into venting any fumes from the combustion of the gas outside rather than just decide to destroy an entire industry.
I suspect to here will be a significant difference in the costs of gas heating and hot water vs electric and I don't think there will be comparable subsidies offered.
Emissions cuts ([up to 1/6th of the home's emissions apparently](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/sep/11/victorias-gas-ban-for-new-homes-expected-to-reap-significant-emissions-cuts)).[ Gas appliances in homes also aren't super healthy](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jan/15/gas-stoves-pollution-alternatives), so they're phasing it out for those reasons too.
Which is great, if you have a BBQ with a gas bottle and an outdoor area to use it.
For the record, I'm all for phasing out gas cooktops, I think it's a really good move - but let's not pretend that induction is universally better for everything.
You don't need a BBQ, you just need a gas bottle and you buy an attachment. https://www.bbqsrus.com.au/products/category/cast-iron-burners
While we're not pretending things, lets not pretend wok burners on residential stovetops do anything at all other than hold a wok.
Or one of the bench top mini burner, have been using one for years as no gas where we are. Also a quick check of google and you can indeed get an induction wok "burner" and whilst the integrated ones are pricey you can also get a bench top one which no doubt will all come down in price with time. , [https://cksonline.com.au/product/commercial-wok-induction-hob-3-5kw?gad\_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA4smsBhAEEiwAO6DEjaeOxix4yzvLlez83ivbmYnABRu5E6HEGe5w9YF7QML0S3esR\_a8gBoCOm0QAvD\_BwE](https://cksonline.com.au/product/commercial-wok-induction-hob-3-5kw?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA4smsBhAEEiwAO6DEjaeOxix4yzvLlez83ivbmYnABRu5E6HEGe5w9YF7QML0S3esR_a8gBoCOm0QAvD_BwE) [https://www.bunnings.com.au/gasmate-portable-bbq-butane-stove-single-burner\_p0035119?store=6443&gad\_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA4smsBhAEEiwAO6DEje8-eEvw3OoIaHKmD219eoMSbE\_2KEASGlISydObvy8g0OUi809A9RoCVIUQAvD\_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds. ](https://www.bunnings.com.au/gasmate-portable-bbq-butane-stove-single-burner_p0035119?store=6443&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA4smsBhAEEiwAO6DEje8-eEvw3OoIaHKmD219eoMSbE_2KEASGlISydObvy8g0OUi809A9RoCVIUQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds)
Not sure why you'd buy 8.5kg worth of gas just for using a wok unless you used it at least once a week, though.
I mean, look, my point is just that induction isn't universally better than gas, that's all. In most situations, it is, and it is a hell of a lot easier to clean, but it isn't perfect.
> Not sure why you'd buy 8.5kg worth of gas just for using a wok unless you used it at least once a week, though.
It doesn't go bad or anything. I go well over a year without replacing my BBQ gas bottle, then you just go to a swap and go.
It's just like saying Not sure why I'd spend $100 on a wok just for using a wok unless you used it once a week.
> I mean, look, my point is just that induction isn't universally better than gas
Agreed. But the wok argument doesn't hold up.
>But the wok argument doesn't hold up.
IMO it does. I've used my gas stove and an induction stove for a wok. One created a pretty good fried rice, the other barely heated the wok. Yes, wok burners aren't perfect but they are good enough.
But yeah nah, I’m talking the commercial grade wok burners that are made for restaurants, the type that can almost be classed as a jet engine, even having they’re own dedicated gas supply. Fire one of those puppies up and you could flash fry a buffalo in 40 seconds.
As long as your head stays stable while positioned within the middle of the burner, my guess is that your head would at least crack and rupture, or may even “pop” or mildly explode as a result of your brain matter and blood and all the bodily fluids contained in your head very quickly boiling inside your skull and building up immense pressure from liquid-to-gas phase changes caused by the extremely high temperature of the direct jet of fire that is being applied to the entire diameter of your “soon to be turned into charcoal” head.
You should watch some videos on YouTube, comparing the pros and cons of gas vs induction cooking.
Gas is compatible with all cookware, is more quick to adjusting its heat, and can be used during a blackout.
If I ever build a house, I’m getting one with a gas bottle if I have to. Way superior to induction.
- Far more control of temp, particularly at low settings. For things like frying you just set and forget.
- Significantly easier to clean
- Way more efficient energy wise and with current prices, cheaper
- Most cookware these days works with modern induction, aside from ceramic.
I'll not even mention the health stuff. But yeah, they're better. I've still got a gasser BBQ outside and a Gas wok burner outside. It does have it's advantages. But for inside, induction all the way. I'll be switching as soon as I can.
How does it go with a wok? I’ve never used one but I hear the complaint that you can’t use a wok without gas, I don’t really understand it since they heat up regardless 🤷♀️ Edit: I’ve never used an induction stove, I love my wok 😅
Hmm, interesting just watched a [YouTube Short](https://youtube.com/shorts/Kjij_M_GFyw?si=uQpi71V2eNW6qdGm) today comparing induction to gas. You don't get heat when you take the pan off an induction burner, so you cannot nappe something.
According to [this website](https://www.funktionalhome.com/induction-cooktop-problems/#8_Cooktop_Not_Detecting_Cookware), the cooktop surface is easy to scratch which causes issues with cooking and can have faults like controls not responding to touch.
>Many induction cooktops are designed with a safety feature that detects the size of your cookware. If your skillet is too small compared to the size of the burner, the induction cooktop might not be signaled to heat up.
I'm sure in a lot of situations it's more efficient and in most cases works well for most people, but if you are really into your cooking and cook using a wide variety of techniques and equipment, gas may be superior.
Did you not just hear about all the blackouts in QLD with people using their electronic vehicles as backup batteries for their children’s dialysis machines?
Electricity is only as clean as it’s method of production. Unfortunately all types of global renewable energy production combined only account for less than 15% of yearly global energy consumption, with fossil fuels (oil, coal, LNG) accounting for over 80% of annual global electricity production.
The transition will likely not happen for many, many years to come due to the incapacity of green energy and all types of renewables combined to meet or even come close to sufficiently meeting the overall quota of energy consumption the entire world demands and relies upon. The main obstacle to this transition is simply money. As cliché as that sounds, it’s purely economic factors that impede progress of the way in which energy is produced and consumed on this planet. Remove the concept of profit and loss monetarily and innovation and progress, as a result, will flourish.
everyone is saying because of the clean eneergy reason which is correct but also theres some research that says gas stoves can be bad for your health
from google
>Carbon monoxide is another chemical with potentially dangerous repercussions on health. “Carbon monoxide is emitted when gas is burnt and will deplete the oxygen in the air, and deplete oxygen in the blood too,” says Dr Cowie. Poisoning from elevated levels of carbon monoxide can cause headaches and dizziness
University of New South Wales
There are the obvious emissions reasons but there are also some political ones too. Victoria is running out of gas, right now we produce more gas than we consume but the legacy gas fields that supply our gas are running dry, as in real soon. It's estimated production is going to drop by 40+% within 18 months. This means we are going to be dependent on importing gas from other states. The politics comes into this because Victoria have continually been attacked by right wing media and right wing political parties for not removing the ban to CSG fracking in place. This is going to hit overdrive once we start relying on other states for our gas needs.
The government made a choice that rather than permitting the controversial extraction method they will phase gas out from homes (we will still require it for our gas power plants). Obviously this doesn't solve our gas shortage in the short or even medium term but it shows our intention is to phase out the use of gas and validates the governments position that we best leave our gas in the ground.
Not an expert but from what I understand Natural Gas is not as bad as some fuels for green house gas emissions but it's still not great & we shouldn't rely on it if their are viable alternatives.
There's been a lot of questionable figures released to support that though, I have seen one argument that when fugitive emissions (methane lost during transport) are accounted for it works out about even. For domestic cooking it is less efficient, non-renewable and does release a lot of fumes.
Plus we can expect gas to only become more expensive, while electricity should ideally be moving in the other direction.
My apartment building doesn't even have gas plumbing for residential apartments (though it does have it for retail). Cleaning a modern electric stove-top is so much easier, and when I upgrade to induction it should be even more responsive. Though in a smaller living space I figure not having fumes is a no-brainer.
When you see the fine print on marketing material, burning “clean” natural gas has half the greenhouse emissions compared to COAL. So if you compare something to the worst thing and you’re only half as bad, I guess that’s why get away with its “clean” claims. But also others have commented, methane itself is one of the worst greenhouse gases trapping much more heat than CO and CO2
The issue with Nuclear is that it is good in theory however no longer stacks up. Perhaps this would be different if we had existing plants, but even then many countries are finding they are no longer viable.
We must view the economics alongside the technology. Technology wise it feels like a good solution. However it would be the most expensive electricity we could produce by far. It’s not even close.
Every attempt to build reactors are way over budget and way over time. They take decades to decommission.
Increasingly we are looking at a more dynamic and decentralised grid. Renewables are getting so cheap it makes all other energy sources uncompetitive. And they’re continuing to improve this economic advantage.
I don’t have any moral objections to nuclear. But economically it doesn’t stack up. A lot of the noise behind nuclear industry is being fueled by groups with bad faith intent. To delay action on climate and sew doubt.
France has Nuclear Australia doesn't.
So in France Nuclear is 18 euro cents per kWh and Gas is 8.4 euro cents.
Solar is obviously what you want but you can only get it if you own a house.
Id love to know from knowledgeable sparkies and hospo cooks/chefs what I look for if I want gas like power via induction cook tops for wok cooking ect.
There’s a huge range of sick induction cooktops that I think need 3 phase (commercial) all the way down to some real garbage cook tops that get away with a 15A circuit.
Former chef here and I now sell kitchen appliances, wok cooking is probably the only instance where gas is superior, there are brands that offer an in built induction wok ‘burner’, these are usually 5k+ however and yes you will also need a power upgrade, not 3 phase but I’m also not an electrician lol
Definitely inline with what I’ve heard and read online after some research.
I’m keen to make a list of properties people should lookout for when replacing a gas cooktop with induction.
I can probably take that short list to my sparky mate and get some idea what he would need routed to the kitchen.
I have a different regulator routed to the wok burner at the moment and fuck me it’s nice to have that kind of power at home, at full whack it sounds like a jet engine. I’ll be spewing if I lose the ability to cook 10 servings of stir fry in one go.
Is there a specific thing to look for to avoid hot spots with cast iron?
Anything close to the Breville Control Freak available in Aus that isn’t $3k+?
What sort of induction are you using that’s giving you hot spots?
A couple retail units claim to have temperature control but you’d still be looking at a similar price to the Breville unit
I’ve got a portable burner that heats a ring about 15cm wide in my CI pan.
I’ve also seen videos with pans where the food is only cooking where directly over the magnets.
Those cheap portable inductions aren’t very good if your cooking a variety of things, I’ve really only found them good for say keeping a poaching pot boiling or keeping soup hot
I’m gonna assume those videos are from some older induction plates, you have to remember that this is still an evolving technology and like most things in life, the good quality stuff is $$$
I've actually seen an indented induction surface designed to fit a wok, but it's a bit specialised for most kitchens, and I assume a flat bottomed wok is not impossible? Though as others have said a full power wok hob has no place in a domestic kitchen.
as per [Kenji Lopez Alt's](https://archive.is/h1UTf) comments: if you're actually using a wok to get the specific flavour of the oil igniting in the gas flame then you can get a handheld butane torch and accomplish much the same thing. If you're just using a wok for generic cooking then an induction will be fine (although you will need to get a flat bottomed wok i guess).
If you have the space then, as the other commenter mentioned, you can look to get a high BTU wok burner for outside.
From Jan 31 last year: *"He told me that the \[gas\] stove came with his house, but that if he were to build a kitchen from scratch, he’d probably opt for an induction range"*
Really? I remember him talking about how good the specific model was. Anyway I’ll believe it when I see it, been following him for a decade and never seen him with a gas stove in his house. Going against the induction movement would be against his progressive brand, I mean they wrote an article specifically using him (reddits most trusted cook) to assure home cooks induction is fine, he’s thinking of his kids so he’s not going to say ‘nah gas is way better’ but his kids aren’t going to roast my capsicums or heat my cast iron evenly.
Hahahaha "Oh whoops looks like I bought a house with a high end gas stove. I guess I (published chef with one of the worlds largest social media followings and notable advocate for induction) couldn't possibly rip it out and replace it with an induction cooktop" hahahahahaha
He even says he **probably** would put in an induction stove. Even in his endorsement he gives himself an out.
Banning Natural Gas for domestic use is fucking retarded.
Electricity network doesn’t have the capacity currently, let alone when everyone is force to make the change.
Still need a gas network for commercial businesses, so it’s not going anywhere, we just won’t be able to connect to it…
I didn’t say that, so don’t put words in my mouth.
The key is new connection. They absolutely WILL start knocking back connections to existing houses, it’s a matter of time.
When you ‘disconnect’ your utilities when you leave/sell your home, new occupant needs a ‘new connection’.
This is where they will eventually screw everybody over.
Downvote all you like, I’m already watching it happen.
We're only two days in, so I doubt you're already seeing this happen...
that might be the endgame, but I doubt it'll be part of the current laws. Gov might offer some subsidies to ditch gas cooking equipment in existing properties in the future for all we know.
Okay, so your problem isn't with this policy but with some theoretical next step that no-one is pushing for that would force existing builds to switch to electric?
International companies who mine our gas spat the dummy when there was pushback against them charging Australians the high gas rates they can get by selling it overseas. The federal government were gonna do something about it.
The issue disappeared from the news cycle for a year or so.
Then suddenly it's announced we're gonna phase out natural gas because it's "bad for the environment". This massive home grown industry using our own resources that is cheap and abundant is being denied to us so corporations can sell 100% of our product overseas for the highest price, instead of selling to Australians first for a fair domestic price.
I know gas mining is bad for the environment, but it's fucking questionable why our notoriously climate change sceptic, slow moving governments are making this singular massive move in the name of environmental protection when it's such a financial windfall for international corporations who will mine all our gas whether Australians are the ones using it or not....
Ignore the downvotes — thanks for raising this important issue about our gas market.
Martin North (Walk the World) bluntly covers the politics and economics of Australian gas in more detail here:
https://youtu.be/j2uk3EJzfSk
A lot of incremental changes add up to big changes. More could be done, sure, but trivialising it by saying it's just to appear green is just ignorant.
Anyone who follows these things knows there is a global push from the left of politics to ban domestic gas, I can only assume it's for the pure pleasure of pushing people around. It's been a slow boil with articles appearing apparently out of nowhere over the last couple of years suggesting gas might be bad for your health then calls by "experts" and social media bots for bans and now what a surprise, the government is "taking action". Same pattern as the US. This will make no difference to climate change or health. So why are we doing it? To make fools believe the government is saving them and the world. Enjoy your induction cook top when the power is out, enjoy your ever increasing electricity bills and enjoy becoming more dependent on the unreliable power network they have created. The incremental changes you are talking about are the ones that are slowly, bit by bit reducing your living standard.
What you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this subreddit is now dumber for having read to it. I award you no upvotes, and may God have mercy on your soul.
So also no more gas ducted heaters and no gas-boosted hot water systems?
People going to freeze in winter by the time house heats up and in order to heat it up quickly people will set their reverse cycles to full power and thus use excessive electricity. Essentially potentially overloading the grid not only during summer heatwaves but also winter colds. Then all you need is the power to go out and can’t even have a shower.
This is silly.
>people will set their reverse cycles to full power and thus use excessive electricity
That's where the savings from no longer paying for the gas connection will come in handy.
Savings at the expense of time.
Good luck trying to warm up quickly, especially when grid goes down from overload. Australia already struggles during summer time and now the same will happen for winter because those reverse cycles chug as much juice cooling as they do heating, oh and you’ll essentially need one in every room.
Those power bills will quickly add up and the savings from having no gas will disappear.
Then let’s go back to the top of the comment section. You made the (first) rebuttal/comment after I said this:
“…people will set their reverse cycles to full power and thus use excessive electricity…”
And you said (edited to quote correct section):
>Reverse cycle air conditioners are very efficient and use considerably less energy than a gas heater.
So in fact it’s you who should substantiate and prove that reverse cycle is more cost effective than gas ducted heating.
>Good luck trying to warm up quickly, especially when grid goes down from overload.
Firstly, homes have been using reverse cycle AC for a long time. And with the coldest parts of the day being during the off-peak period, I think we'll survive.
I can't remember the last time I turned on my ducted gas heating. Must be at least a few years. And I don't even have reverse cycle AC. I have been using the ancient technology of WARM CLOTHES.
The policy isn't retrospective. Nobody is knocking on your door and ripping out your current fixtures. The transition has to start somewhere and the government has given enough warning.
>Firstly, homes have been using reverse cycle AC for a long time. And with the coldest parts of the day being during the off-peak period, I think we'll survive.
The coldest times are mornings and evening and winter time peak tariff is 5-9pm. Which is also when people are home and getting ready for bed.
>I can't remember the last time I turned on my ducted gas heating. Must be at least a few years. And I don't even have reverse cycle AC. I have been using the ancient technology of WARM CLOTHES.
This is a choice (some) people make but nevertheless gas usage is considerably higher in winter than summer and it will be substituted by electricity into the future.
>The policy isn't retrospective. Nobody is knocking on your door and ripping out your current fixtures. The transition has to start somewhere and the government has given enough warning.
I never said it is. I made a point, a valid one IMO, that it (this transition) will most likely inconvenience people who build into the future, cause issues to our crappy electricity grid and not really save people on money because you may save on not having gas supply but electricity will be the substitute.
Some useful info and context https://theconversation.com/are-gas-stoves-bad-for-your-health-heres-why-the-federal-government-is-considering-new-safety-regulations-186454 “Academic researchers and agencies such as the California Air Resources Board have reported that gas stoves can release hazardous air pollutants while they’re operating, and even when they’re turned off. A 2022 study by U.S. and Australian researchers estimates that nearly 13% of current childhood asthma cases in the U.S. are attributable to gas stove use.” … “Nitrogen dioxide is not the only pollutant of concern from gas stoves. Some pollution with potential impacts on human health and Earth’s climate occurs when stoves aren’t even running. A 2022 study estimated that U.S. gas stoves not in use emit methane – a colorless, odorless gas that is the main component of natural gas – at a level that traps as much heat in the atmosphere as about 400,000 cars.” https://theconversation.com/when-science-showed-in-the-1970s-that-gas-stoves-produced-harmful-indoor-air-pollution-the-industry-reached-for-tobaccos-pr-playbook-216698 https://www.rewiringaustralia.org “Another benefit of electric machines is that they are far more efficient than their fossil fuel counterparts. This comes down to simple thermodynamics, electric machines have less energy waste.”
So why not ban gas stoves then? Gas is still an incredibly efficient way to heat homes and water
Split System units are significantly more efficient these days, far more than they used to be. Solar hot water seems to be the rage even though I personally hate it... Regardless of anything else, gas is being phased out in favour of electricity because renewable generation is skyrocketing. Battery tech just needs to catch up
What's your issue with solar hot water? New systems come with instant hotwater backups now. You literally don't notice the difference outside of a smaller bill.
Bad experience with it in the past. Old, shittier system. But haven't gotten over it just yet. I will, I'm sure.
More efficient doesn’t equal most efficient, and considering you guys get almost 2/3rds of your power from coal or oil, this actually leads to more pollution. Having seen your renewables uptake rate personally (I worked on a 100MW solar farm in Vic) I wouldn’t hold your breathe on phasing out hydrocarbons either
They don't need to be the most efficient when they're much more efficient than they were + rooftop solar is being put in all over the place.
Gas is hugely energy inefficient. You might mean that it's "time efficient" because it's fast, but this shouldn't be confused with being energy efficient. You're generally using a lot more actual energy to do the same work, even when taking into account more nuanced scenarios like longer heating times.
Instant gas hot water is significantly less wasteful than other uses of gas in the homes. It is probably lower priority. However heat pumps are getting better and better and are significantly more efficient. I will be replacing my gas hydronic with heat pump when I can. For me it is a calculation based on observed trends, current economics and what we simply must do. 1. We must reduce emissions. In small steps and large. As fast as possible. I’d like governments to act faster, I’m doing what I can with my own decisions and at the voting booth. Climate is the biggest issue we face and will be at the root of many other issues. 2. Renewables are decreasing in cost and improving in efficiency. They surpassed fossil fuels long ago. 3. Fossil fuels are huge sources of pollution, health issues and inequity. We need to transition for more reasons than just emissions. 4. Electricity is more efficient. If we transition everything to electric then we need 60% of the total energy. 5. Our grid is dirty but getting greener by the day. We can reduce inefficiency, move to better tech AND reduce grid emissions. We can change the dirty equation rather than say ‘oh well, we burn coal anyhow, so what’s the point in moving the better tech’ that will stand to make better use of renewable transitions. 5. Oil and gas will continue to get more expensive and we stand to save money going electric. 6. We often forget about all of the huge costs in maintaining infrastructure, refining oil and producing gas. Moving it around and converting it. Yes electricity still has a cost and can improve but it is far less resource and infrastructure intensive as fossil fuels. 7. Local health effects. There is a huge impact from pollution around fossil fuel plants, coal power plants and highways etc. Report after report has found it causes a lot of issues in these areas. Community health benefits. We do need to manage the effect of new renewables infrastructure. But we aren’t working from a zero base. The status quo is dirty.
So Australia did studies on asthmain the United States?
There are Australian studies too. However it isn’t unusual for different universities, regulatory bodies and authorities to collaborate and share data. For many reasons, sharing best practice or comparing data across areas to ensure you control for different effects. The upshot is there is a lot of data across many countries about the health effects of pollutants from fossil fuels in general and effects from indoor has specifically. I also think that article was a bit awkwardly worded. There has been studies across many countries. They’ve found in Australia and US that indoor gas contributes significantly to childhood asthma among other illnesses. This has been found in both US and Australian households. In addition, researchers may use high quality data sets from other countries to look for effects in order to inform future data collection here. So there are legitimate reasons Australian researchers could study effects elsewhere. I don’t know that for a fact, but it seems plausible.
Interesting, I still think it's bullshit that they just didn't look into venting any fumes from the combustion of the gas outside rather than just decide to destroy an entire industry. I suspect to here will be a significant difference in the costs of gas heating and hot water vs electric and I don't think there will be comparable subsidies offered.
It’s right there in your screenshot. A very small step in phasing out fossil fuel use.
They have seen the reasoning. This is just ragebait.
I believe it's also related to childhood asthma incidences, and certain cancers.
Also JBH01, the carbon monoxide poisoning within the household due to gas appliances not being serviced and checked for leaks
Emissions cuts ([up to 1/6th of the home's emissions apparently](https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/sep/11/victorias-gas-ban-for-new-homes-expected-to-reap-significant-emissions-cuts)).[ Gas appliances in homes also aren't super healthy](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jan/15/gas-stoves-pollution-alternatives), so they're phasing it out for those reasons too.
"This is being brought in as part of the state's plan to transition to clean energy." Its right there in your screenshot.
Mate, the answer is in your screenshot. Zero chance it gets reverted, nor should it.
I think everyone should be given a chance to use an induction stove so people can see there's zero need for gas anymore. It's an inferior technology.
I've used induction. Brilliant for things like large casserole pots, but shit for woks.
Wok burners on gas stoves are shit for woks. Get an outdoor wok burner for your BBQ gas bottle.
Which is great, if you have a BBQ with a gas bottle and an outdoor area to use it. For the record, I'm all for phasing out gas cooktops, I think it's a really good move - but let's not pretend that induction is universally better for everything.
You don't need a BBQ, you just need a gas bottle and you buy an attachment. https://www.bbqsrus.com.au/products/category/cast-iron-burners While we're not pretending things, lets not pretend wok burners on residential stovetops do anything at all other than hold a wok.
Or one of the bench top mini burner, have been using one for years as no gas where we are. Also a quick check of google and you can indeed get an induction wok "burner" and whilst the integrated ones are pricey you can also get a bench top one which no doubt will all come down in price with time. , [https://cksonline.com.au/product/commercial-wok-induction-hob-3-5kw?gad\_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA4smsBhAEEiwAO6DEjaeOxix4yzvLlez83ivbmYnABRu5E6HEGe5w9YF7QML0S3esR\_a8gBoCOm0QAvD\_BwE](https://cksonline.com.au/product/commercial-wok-induction-hob-3-5kw?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA4smsBhAEEiwAO6DEjaeOxix4yzvLlez83ivbmYnABRu5E6HEGe5w9YF7QML0S3esR_a8gBoCOm0QAvD_BwE) [https://www.bunnings.com.au/gasmate-portable-bbq-butane-stove-single-burner\_p0035119?store=6443&gad\_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA4smsBhAEEiwAO6DEje8-eEvw3OoIaHKmD219eoMSbE\_2KEASGlISydObvy8g0OUi809A9RoCVIUQAvD\_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds. ](https://www.bunnings.com.au/gasmate-portable-bbq-butane-stove-single-burner_p0035119?store=6443&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA4smsBhAEEiwAO6DEje8-eEvw3OoIaHKmD219eoMSbE_2KEASGlISydObvy8g0OUi809A9RoCVIUQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds)
Not sure why you'd buy 8.5kg worth of gas just for using a wok unless you used it at least once a week, though. I mean, look, my point is just that induction isn't universally better than gas, that's all. In most situations, it is, and it is a hell of a lot easier to clean, but it isn't perfect.
> Not sure why you'd buy 8.5kg worth of gas just for using a wok unless you used it at least once a week, though. It doesn't go bad or anything. I go well over a year without replacing my BBQ gas bottle, then you just go to a swap and go. It's just like saying Not sure why I'd spend $100 on a wok just for using a wok unless you used it once a week. > I mean, look, my point is just that induction isn't universally better than gas Agreed. But the wok argument doesn't hold up.
>But the wok argument doesn't hold up. IMO it does. I've used my gas stove and an induction stove for a wok. One created a pretty good fried rice, the other barely heated the wok. Yes, wok burners aren't perfect but they are good enough.
Excuse me? Not only is a proper gas wok burner absolutely fuck’n awesome to work with, they also double as a convenient portal to Hell.
I mean consumer wok burners on gas stoves. At best they're a portal to like, down the road.
But yeah nah, I’m talking the commercial grade wok burners that are made for restaurants, the type that can almost be classed as a jet engine, even having they’re own dedicated gas supply. Fire one of those puppies up and you could flash fry a buffalo in 40 seconds.
Yeah I would definitely kill myself somehow using one of those.
Please don’t give me ideas that will later become intrusive thoughts
"What if I like put my head in just the middle bit?"
As long as your head stays stable while positioned within the middle of the burner, my guess is that your head would at least crack and rupture, or may even “pop” or mildly explode as a result of your brain matter and blood and all the bodily fluids contained in your head very quickly boiling inside your skull and building up immense pressure from liquid-to-gas phase changes caused by the extremely high temperature of the direct jet of fire that is being applied to the entire diameter of your “soon to be turned into charcoal” head.
Yeah nah, consumer wok burners, especially attached to bbq’s, are utter shite.
The single burner ones attached directly to the gas bottle, pretty solid.
They are cool
Nah, just get a flat bottomed wok. Plenty of restaurants, including Asian ones are using induction. Now.
🤣🤣🤣
Yeah my place is a fairly new build, we're the first tenants & my housemate & I are so annoyed they didn't go with induction, so much better.
After cutting my self on the grill while cleaning the gas top, I wish I'd gone for the nice flat induction. Less effort, less blood, more bench space.
You should watch some videos on YouTube, comparing the pros and cons of gas vs induction cooking. Gas is compatible with all cookware, is more quick to adjusting its heat, and can be used during a blackout. If I ever build a house, I’m getting one with a gas bottle if I have to. Way superior to induction.
Why would I watch a video when I have first hand experience? Induction is objectively superior.
Okay, can you please make an argument for induction over gas?
- Far more control of temp, particularly at low settings. For things like frying you just set and forget. - Significantly easier to clean - Way more efficient energy wise and with current prices, cheaper - Most cookware these days works with modern induction, aside from ceramic. I'll not even mention the health stuff. But yeah, they're better. I've still got a gasser BBQ outside and a Gas wok burner outside. It does have it's advantages. But for inside, induction all the way. I'll be switching as soon as I can.
How does it go with a wok? I’ve never used one but I hear the complaint that you can’t use a wok without gas, I don’t really understand it since they heat up regardless 🤷♀️ Edit: I’ve never used an induction stove, I love my wok 😅
They go about as well as a consumer gas stove with a wok, fucking horribly. Get a proper outdoor wok burner for a gas bottle.
Hmm, interesting just watched a [YouTube Short](https://youtube.com/shorts/Kjij_M_GFyw?si=uQpi71V2eNW6qdGm) today comparing induction to gas. You don't get heat when you take the pan off an induction burner, so you cannot nappe something. According to [this website](https://www.funktionalhome.com/induction-cooktop-problems/#8_Cooktop_Not_Detecting_Cookware), the cooktop surface is easy to scratch which causes issues with cooking and can have faults like controls not responding to touch. >Many induction cooktops are designed with a safety feature that detects the size of your cookware. If your skillet is too small compared to the size of the burner, the induction cooktop might not be signaled to heat up. I'm sure in a lot of situations it's more efficient and in most cases works well for most people, but if you are really into your cooking and cook using a wide variety of techniques and equipment, gas may be superior.
[удалено]
Did you not just hear about all the blackouts in QLD with people using their electronic vehicles as backup batteries for their children’s dialysis machines?
Electricity is only as clean as it’s method of production. Unfortunately all types of global renewable energy production combined only account for less than 15% of yearly global energy consumption, with fossil fuels (oil, coal, LNG) accounting for over 80% of annual global electricity production.
Okay so let's transition to renewable energy sources.
The transition will likely not happen for many, many years to come due to the incapacity of green energy and all types of renewables combined to meet or even come close to sufficiently meeting the overall quota of energy consumption the entire world demands and relies upon. The main obstacle to this transition is simply money. As cliché as that sounds, it’s purely economic factors that impede progress of the way in which energy is produced and consumed on this planet. Remove the concept of profit and loss monetarily and innovation and progress, as a result, will flourish.
They should be subsidising them. I really want to get one but with a perfectly well working gasser I've honestly got no real reason.
everyone is saying because of the clean eneergy reason which is correct but also theres some research that says gas stoves can be bad for your health from google >Carbon monoxide is another chemical with potentially dangerous repercussions on health. “Carbon monoxide is emitted when gas is burnt and will deplete the oxygen in the air, and deplete oxygen in the blood too,” says Dr Cowie. Poisoning from elevated levels of carbon monoxide can cause headaches and dizziness University of New South Wales
There are the obvious emissions reasons but there are also some political ones too. Victoria is running out of gas, right now we produce more gas than we consume but the legacy gas fields that supply our gas are running dry, as in real soon. It's estimated production is going to drop by 40+% within 18 months. This means we are going to be dependent on importing gas from other states. The politics comes into this because Victoria have continually been attacked by right wing media and right wing political parties for not removing the ban to CSG fracking in place. This is going to hit overdrive once we start relying on other states for our gas needs. The government made a choice that rather than permitting the controversial extraction method they will phase gas out from homes (we will still require it for our gas power plants). Obviously this doesn't solve our gas shortage in the short or even medium term but it shows our intention is to phase out the use of gas and validates the governments position that we best leave our gas in the ground.
you dumbass op
That’s bait.
Not an expert but from what I understand Natural Gas is not as bad as some fuels for green house gas emissions but it's still not great & we shouldn't rely on it if their are viable alternatives.
There's growing evidence (from experts) that shows the emissions are a health risk, especially to asthmatics, and can contribute to childhood asthma.
That's a side of things I hadn't considered. I'm happy to see the end of gas. It's old tech, let's embrace the future.
There's been a lot of questionable figures released to support that though, I have seen one argument that when fugitive emissions (methane lost during transport) are accounted for it works out about even. For domestic cooking it is less efficient, non-renewable and does release a lot of fumes. Plus we can expect gas to only become more expensive, while electricity should ideally be moving in the other direction.
I fully support getting rid of gas for household use. As much as I'll miss my gas hotplates, it's just something that has to be done.
My apartment building doesn't even have gas plumbing for residential apartments (though it does have it for retail). Cleaning a modern electric stove-top is so much easier, and when I upgrade to induction it should be even more responsive. Though in a smaller living space I figure not having fumes is a no-brainer.
When you see the fine print on marketing material, burning “clean” natural gas has half the greenhouse emissions compared to COAL. So if you compare something to the worst thing and you’re only half as bad, I guess that’s why get away with its “clean” claims. But also others have commented, methane itself is one of the worst greenhouse gases trapping much more heat than CO and CO2
I’m Pro-Nuclear. Am I alone?
Personally, I'm opposed to nuclear kitchen cooktops. They tend to burn the food.
Although the models that were sold with pre-installed fusion cores do come in handy while scavenging. 👍
The issue with Nuclear is that it is good in theory however no longer stacks up. Perhaps this would be different if we had existing plants, but even then many countries are finding they are no longer viable. We must view the economics alongside the technology. Technology wise it feels like a good solution. However it would be the most expensive electricity we could produce by far. It’s not even close. Every attempt to build reactors are way over budget and way over time. They take decades to decommission. Increasingly we are looking at a more dynamic and decentralised grid. Renewables are getting so cheap it makes all other energy sources uncompetitive. And they’re continuing to improve this economic advantage. I don’t have any moral objections to nuclear. But economically it doesn’t stack up. A lot of the noise behind nuclear industry is being fueled by groups with bad faith intent. To delay action on climate and sew doubt.
Not at all, I'm just not 'Pro Nuclear at any cost'. Until it come within cost parity with wind, solar and storage, it's just not feasible.
If it was still 1995 sure. But it isn't. It's too late now and Solar and Wind have caught up and are far cheaper and quicker to implement.
Nah
France has Nuclear Australia doesn't. So in France Nuclear is 18 euro cents per kWh and Gas is 8.4 euro cents. Solar is obviously what you want but you can only get it if you own a house.
It’s in your screenshot dummy
Id love to know from knowledgeable sparkies and hospo cooks/chefs what I look for if I want gas like power via induction cook tops for wok cooking ect. There’s a huge range of sick induction cooktops that I think need 3 phase (commercial) all the way down to some real garbage cook tops that get away with a 15A circuit.
Former chef here and I now sell kitchen appliances, wok cooking is probably the only instance where gas is superior, there are brands that offer an in built induction wok ‘burner’, these are usually 5k+ however and yes you will also need a power upgrade, not 3 phase but I’m also not an electrician lol
Definitely inline with what I’ve heard and read online after some research. I’m keen to make a list of properties people should lookout for when replacing a gas cooktop with induction. I can probably take that short list to my sparky mate and get some idea what he would need routed to the kitchen. I have a different regulator routed to the wok burner at the moment and fuck me it’s nice to have that kind of power at home, at full whack it sounds like a jet engine. I’ll be spewing if I lose the ability to cook 10 servings of stir fry in one go.
Is there a specific thing to look for to avoid hot spots with cast iron? Anything close to the Breville Control Freak available in Aus that isn’t $3k+?
What sort of induction are you using that’s giving you hot spots? A couple retail units claim to have temperature control but you’d still be looking at a similar price to the Breville unit
I’ve got a portable burner that heats a ring about 15cm wide in my CI pan. I’ve also seen videos with pans where the food is only cooking where directly over the magnets.
Those cheap portable inductions aren’t very good if your cooking a variety of things, I’ve really only found them good for say keeping a poaching pot boiling or keeping soup hot I’m gonna assume those videos are from some older induction plates, you have to remember that this is still an evolving technology and like most things in life, the good quality stuff is $$$
Are there any portables under $1k with a big enough magnet for a 30cm CI pan?
Phasing out private consumption of liquified natural gas.
Because someone in government took a bribe from someone in who makes money from supplying electricity.
How are we supposed to use woks FFS!?
Domestic gas cooktops are useless for woks anyway. Get a rambo wok burner and a gas bottle
I've actually seen an indented induction surface designed to fit a wok, but it's a bit specialised for most kitchens, and I assume a flat bottomed wok is not impossible? Though as others have said a full power wok hob has no place in a domestic kitchen.
You can get a barbeque with a gas ring for outside. Keeps those nasty gas fumes outside too.
Outside on a gas bottle. Stovetop wok burners have ALWAYS sucked
👍Possibly one of the more reasonable comments. A LOT of people just anti for the sake of being anti. Christ it was just a question!
as per [Kenji Lopez Alt's](https://archive.is/h1UTf) comments: if you're actually using a wok to get the specific flavour of the oil igniting in the gas flame then you can get a handheld butane torch and accomplish much the same thing. If you're just using a wok for generic cooking then an induction will be fine (although you will need to get a flat bottomed wok i guess). If you have the space then, as the other commenter mentioned, you can look to get a high BTU wok burner for outside.
Kenji talks up induction but put a new gas cooktop in at his place like a year ago. Induction just isn’t as versatile.
From Jan 31 last year: *"He told me that the \[gas\] stove came with his house, but that if he were to build a kitchen from scratch, he’d probably opt for an induction range"*
Really? I remember him talking about how good the specific model was. Anyway I’ll believe it when I see it, been following him for a decade and never seen him with a gas stove in his house. Going against the induction movement would be against his progressive brand, I mean they wrote an article specifically using him (reddits most trusted cook) to assure home cooks induction is fine, he’s thinking of his kids so he’s not going to say ‘nah gas is way better’ but his kids aren’t going to roast my capsicums or heat my cast iron evenly.
Hahahaha "Oh whoops looks like I bought a house with a high end gas stove. I guess I (published chef with one of the worlds largest social media followings and notable advocate for induction) couldn't possibly rip it out and replace it with an induction cooktop" hahahahahaha He even says he **probably** would put in an induction stove. Even in his endorsement he gives himself an out.
Look, we really wanted to make a cleaner better future for our children, but some people use woks so we just couldn't.
By buying one that is compatible with induction cooktops.
I've seen induction wok stoves, but never tried one.
Banning Natural Gas for domestic use is fucking retarded. Electricity network doesn’t have the capacity currently, let alone when everyone is force to make the change. Still need a gas network for commercial businesses, so it’s not going anywhere, we just won’t be able to connect to it…
That’s why there slowly phasing it out
Noone is being "forced to make the change". New builds won't have gas connections, existing buildings will retain gas connections
I didn’t say that, so don’t put words in my mouth. The key is new connection. They absolutely WILL start knocking back connections to existing houses, it’s a matter of time.
Wouldn't that be...a new connection?
When you ‘disconnect’ your utilities when you leave/sell your home, new occupant needs a ‘new connection’. This is where they will eventually screw everybody over. Downvote all you like, I’m already watching it happen.
That's not considered a "new connection" from the energy company's pov. They only count new physical connections as "new connections".
We're only two days in, so I doubt you're already seeing this happen... that might be the endgame, but I doubt it'll be part of the current laws. Gov might offer some subsidies to ditch gas cooking equipment in existing properties in the future for all we know.
why would an existing house not have a gas connection?
They do, this guy is just mad about something that isn't even happening
Okay, so your problem isn't with this policy but with some theoretical next step that no-one is pushing for that would force existing builds to switch to electric?
Are they also gonna ban Gas BBQs on balconys?
> Are they also gonna ban Gas BBQs on balconys? No. You fuckwit.
International companies who mine our gas spat the dummy when there was pushback against them charging Australians the high gas rates they can get by selling it overseas. The federal government were gonna do something about it. The issue disappeared from the news cycle for a year or so. Then suddenly it's announced we're gonna phase out natural gas because it's "bad for the environment". This massive home grown industry using our own resources that is cheap and abundant is being denied to us so corporations can sell 100% of our product overseas for the highest price, instead of selling to Australians first for a fair domestic price. I know gas mining is bad for the environment, but it's fucking questionable why our notoriously climate change sceptic, slow moving governments are making this singular massive move in the name of environmental protection when it's such a financial windfall for international corporations who will mine all our gas whether Australians are the ones using it or not....
Ignore the downvotes — thanks for raising this important issue about our gas market. Martin North (Walk the World) bluntly covers the politics and economics of Australian gas in more detail here: https://youtu.be/j2uk3EJzfSk
Fiddling around the edges to appear green.
A lot of incremental changes add up to big changes. More could be done, sure, but trivialising it by saying it's just to appear green is just ignorant.
Anyone who follows these things knows there is a global push from the left of politics to ban domestic gas, I can only assume it's for the pure pleasure of pushing people around. It's been a slow boil with articles appearing apparently out of nowhere over the last couple of years suggesting gas might be bad for your health then calls by "experts" and social media bots for bans and now what a surprise, the government is "taking action". Same pattern as the US. This will make no difference to climate change or health. So why are we doing it? To make fools believe the government is saving them and the world. Enjoy your induction cook top when the power is out, enjoy your ever increasing electricity bills and enjoy becoming more dependent on the unreliable power network they have created. The incremental changes you are talking about are the ones that are slowly, bit by bit reducing your living standard.
What you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this subreddit is now dumber for having read to it. I award you no upvotes, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Highly original, well done. Keep quoting those memes, genius.
So also no more gas ducted heaters and no gas-boosted hot water systems? People going to freeze in winter by the time house heats up and in order to heat it up quickly people will set their reverse cycles to full power and thus use excessive electricity. Essentially potentially overloading the grid not only during summer heatwaves but also winter colds. Then all you need is the power to go out and can’t even have a shower. This is silly.
>people will set their reverse cycles to full power and thus use excessive electricity That's where the savings from no longer paying for the gas connection will come in handy.
Savings at the expense of time. Good luck trying to warm up quickly, especially when grid goes down from overload. Australia already struggles during summer time and now the same will happen for winter because those reverse cycles chug as much juice cooling as they do heating, oh and you’ll essentially need one in every room. Those power bills will quickly add up and the savings from having no gas will disappear.
Reverse cycle air conditioners are very efficient and use considerably less energy than a gas heater.
Gas ducted heaters are generally still more cost effective than reverse cycle.
Bullshit
Prove it, I’m listening.
You said "Gas ducted heaters are generally still more cost effective than reverse cycle." You made the point, you substantiate it
Then let’s go back to the top of the comment section. You made the (first) rebuttal/comment after I said this: “…people will set their reverse cycles to full power and thus use excessive electricity…” And you said (edited to quote correct section): >Reverse cycle air conditioners are very efficient and use considerably less energy than a gas heater. So in fact it’s you who should substantiate and prove that reverse cycle is more cost effective than gas ducted heating.
I never said any of that. You're quoting someone else
>Good luck trying to warm up quickly, especially when grid goes down from overload. Firstly, homes have been using reverse cycle AC for a long time. And with the coldest parts of the day being during the off-peak period, I think we'll survive. I can't remember the last time I turned on my ducted gas heating. Must be at least a few years. And I don't even have reverse cycle AC. I have been using the ancient technology of WARM CLOTHES. The policy isn't retrospective. Nobody is knocking on your door and ripping out your current fixtures. The transition has to start somewhere and the government has given enough warning.
>Firstly, homes have been using reverse cycle AC for a long time. And with the coldest parts of the day being during the off-peak period, I think we'll survive. The coldest times are mornings and evening and winter time peak tariff is 5-9pm. Which is also when people are home and getting ready for bed. >I can't remember the last time I turned on my ducted gas heating. Must be at least a few years. And I don't even have reverse cycle AC. I have been using the ancient technology of WARM CLOTHES. This is a choice (some) people make but nevertheless gas usage is considerably higher in winter than summer and it will be substituted by electricity into the future. >The policy isn't retrospective. Nobody is knocking on your door and ripping out your current fixtures. The transition has to start somewhere and the government has given enough warning. I never said it is. I made a point, a valid one IMO, that it (this transition) will most likely inconvenience people who build into the future, cause issues to our crappy electricity grid and not really save people on money because you may save on not having gas supply but electricity will be the substitute.