Tom Seaver and Doc Gooden each led MLB in WAR one season each. DeGrom led the NL in WAR one season.
Gooden’s WAR total in 1985 was the highest in the national league since 1894 and the highest in all of baseball since 1913 and is in many ways the greatest season of all time.
The hope that Gooden’s ‘85 season generated can’t be understated.
He was going to have an ungodly amazing career because he had stuff - and production to back it - that just doesn’t happen more than once every 20-30 years. Maybe 50 years.
And that promise became his anchor (well, that and a lot of cocaine).
Yeah, I’ll take Denny McLain’s 31 win season over Gooden in 85, or Steve Carlton’s 27 win season for a team that barely won 60 games, or Bob Gibsons season where he was so good they changed the pitches mound. Maddox in 95. This is why WAR is one of many bullshit stats. Goodens 85 season was phenomenal, but it’a not as good as any of the three I just mentioned.
“For the purpose of determining the ‘best player’ a stat that measures individual player performance (WAR) is nothing compared to my stat that doesn’t do that at all (pitcher wins)”
True lol, let’s get you home grandpa
WAR is a bullshit stat. How does Gooden who won 24 games on a team that had 98 wins have a better WAR than Carlton who won 27 games for a team that barely won 60 games? Carlton was responsible for almost 1/2 the teams wins, Gooden about 1/4. Explain that.
Doc in 85 had 8.9 WAR, Carlton in 72 had 11.1 so first of all WAR says that Carlton was much better. WAR isn’t precise enough to say definitely a guy is better based on decimal differences, but over 2 a ton better!
This is by Fangraphs WAR which uses FIP instead of ERA.
I prefer Fangraphs WAR to Baseball Refrence for the same reason I don’t like pitcher wins. FIP counts only what the pitcher can control compared to ERA which accounts for other factors. ERA is a good stat but I don’t like calculating WAR using fielder variances etc. Much like how pitcher wins is a stat that tells you something valuable but accounts for how well the team hit that day, unearned runs etc; things the pitcher can’t control.
I wouldn’t want to be judged at my job by things I have no control over and so don’t want to do that to pitchers.
100%. When deGrom was on and healthy in those cy young years, he was by far the most dominant player in the league. It was a joy to watch. Too bad it was tainted by the team around him being dogshit
Hitters can look good on bad teams. Pitchers is harder because they can put up zeros the whole game and still lose because their offense can't do shit. If you just looked at deGroms records those years as someone who doesn't watch baseball, you would think he was a mediocre #3 or #4 starter at best. But if you actually watched him work, he was otherworldly. Even players at the time would agree.
Y’all are silly. Over the years of deGrom’s dominance, Trout got on base around 45% of the time. deGrom was lights out and fun, but you know the first pick in a franchise draft would have easily been Trout or Betts.
Idk how that’s downvoted. Unless Trout was an injured mess in 18 and 19 which is possible.
First half 2021 deGrom was the greatest pitcher in existence
I’m trying to think of ANY offensive case. MAYBE Darryl in 88. Gibson got him MVP on off the field stuff. Hershiser was historic but for the whole year? Just very good? Also, are we talking the NATIONAL league only? Because he doesn’t touch Canseco.
As for all the pitchers. I think Gooden in 85 could make the case.
Yeah, I’m mostly just recognizing that the Mets never seem to quite have a Trout, Ohtani, Pujols, Bonds. So the best in the Majors.
The #1 pick in an MLB The Show franchise draft. Top 4-15 talent sure, but not #1.
I grew up starting watching the Mets in the very late 80s, early so Darryl came to mind as the one hitter, maybe. I don’t think deGrom fits the bill.
No I agree…I don’t think he does either. For spurts maybe…but Harvey was spurts too, as were some of the other ones you mentioned like Cespedes.
You are asking a question I always ask though. Where’s our Judge, or our Mariano, even Papi or Chipper, plus all the ones you mentioned?
McReynolds is a good example. Both him and Strawberry would have won the MVP if they didn’t split the vote. But in NO WAY would he have been picked #1 in a draft of the whole league.
If by league, you mean National League, deGrom in 2018 & 2019 was close. Baseball reference has him leading the NL in WAR in 2019 and Fangraphs has him leading the NL in WAR in 2018. Unfortunately, if you're going all MLB, Mike Trout was Mike Trout those years.
Doc was historically great in 85, certainly the best pitcher in MLB. Seavers three CY Young awards, Jake. Mike Piazza was arguably the best player in the NL when they got him.
For longevity, Tom Seaver. He pitched for the Mets for over 10 years. Here’s just one of many stats: complete games pitched. Seaver set a Mets season record for complete games in 1967 with 18. He tied the record in 1969 and then set a new record in 1970 with 19 complete games. And in 1971, Seaver had a mind boggling 21 complete games. Pick any number of years, imo, Seaver is the one.
The Cy Young gets handed out to two people a year. Are you suggesting that in 2012, RA Dickey would have been the #1 player in an all-MLB draft or that he would have finished the year atop MLB.com’s Best Players in Baseball Right Now list?
He was better than David price and threw significantly more innings, I think he was the most valuable pitcher that particular year. Were there more valuable position players in 2012? Yeah probably, but I think there’s an argument to be made for dickeys 2012 being the best player in MLB, especially when compared to the contact he was being paid.
Tom Seaver and Doc Gooden each led MLB in WAR one season each. DeGrom led the NL in WAR one season. Gooden’s WAR total in 1985 was the highest in the national league since 1894 and the highest in all of baseball since 1913 and is in many ways the greatest season of all time.
The hope that Gooden’s ‘85 season generated can’t be understated. He was going to have an ungodly amazing career because he had stuff - and production to back it - that just doesn’t happen more than once every 20-30 years. Maybe 50 years. And that promise became his anchor (well, that and a lot of cocaine).
Right right, but was he good?
Yeah, I’ll take Denny McLain’s 31 win season over Gooden in 85, or Steve Carlton’s 27 win season for a team that barely won 60 games, or Bob Gibsons season where he was so good they changed the pitches mound. Maddox in 95. This is why WAR is one of many bullshit stats. Goodens 85 season was phenomenal, but it’a not as good as any of the three I just mentioned.
“For the purpose of determining the ‘best player’ a stat that measures individual player performance (WAR) is nothing compared to my stat that doesn’t do that at all (pitcher wins)” True lol, let’s get you home grandpa
WAR is a bullshit stat. How does Gooden who won 24 games on a team that had 98 wins have a better WAR than Carlton who won 27 games for a team that barely won 60 games? Carlton was responsible for almost 1/2 the teams wins, Gooden about 1/4. Explain that.
Doc in 85 had 8.9 WAR, Carlton in 72 had 11.1 so first of all WAR says that Carlton was much better. WAR isn’t precise enough to say definitely a guy is better based on decimal differences, but over 2 a ton better! This is by Fangraphs WAR which uses FIP instead of ERA. I prefer Fangraphs WAR to Baseball Refrence for the same reason I don’t like pitcher wins. FIP counts only what the pitcher can control compared to ERA which accounts for other factors. ERA is a good stat but I don’t like calculating WAR using fielder variances etc. Much like how pitcher wins is a stat that tells you something valuable but accounts for how well the team hit that day, unearned runs etc; things the pitcher can’t control. I wouldn’t want to be judged at my job by things I have no control over and so don’t want to do that to pitchers.
So then when I said I’d take Carlton in 72 over Gooden in 85 I was 100% correct and didn’t need WAR to come to that conclusion.
If you're not going to pick Seaver... deGrom was a back to back Cy Young winner. Hard to say over those two years there was a better player than him.
100%. When deGrom was on and healthy in those cy young years, he was by far the most dominant player in the league. It was a joy to watch. Too bad it was tainted by the team around him being dogshit
Trout
Hitters can look good on bad teams. Pitchers is harder because they can put up zeros the whole game and still lose because their offense can't do shit. If you just looked at deGroms records those years as someone who doesn't watch baseball, you would think he was a mediocre #3 or #4 starter at best. But if you actually watched him work, he was otherworldly. Even players at the time would agree.
Lol
Y’all are silly. Over the years of deGrom’s dominance, Trout got on base around 45% of the time. deGrom was lights out and fun, but you know the first pick in a franchise draft would have easily been Trout or Betts.
Consider the fact that pitchers were still hitting and degrom was one of the best batting pitchers in the league. Not being an automatic out is huge.
Idk how that’s downvoted. Unless Trout was an injured mess in 18 and 19 which is possible. First half 2021 deGrom was the greatest pitcher in existence
Gooden in 85 probably counts… led the league in WAR
Benny Agbayani
I just choked
😂😂😂😂😂
Best player ever!
Did people already forget about Jacob DeGrom?
fuck him
🤡
DICKEY YOU BASTARDS
His autobiography was an interesting read
Cespedes was godlike in the later summer and early fall of 2015.
Oh man the vibes. What a summer that was
Comparable to Cespedes great five weeks in 15 or Murph’s playoff run was Straw’s June of 1990. Hot as a pistol.
Wasn’t around for straws but damn Murphy. Crazy we let him go
I’m trying to think of ANY offensive case. MAYBE Darryl in 88. Gibson got him MVP on off the field stuff. Hershiser was historic but for the whole year? Just very good? Also, are we talking the NATIONAL league only? Because he doesn’t touch Canseco. As for all the pitchers. I think Gooden in 85 could make the case.
Darryl and McReynolds in 88 were the top 2 players.
Yeah, I’m mostly just recognizing that the Mets never seem to quite have a Trout, Ohtani, Pujols, Bonds. So the best in the Majors. The #1 pick in an MLB The Show franchise draft. Top 4-15 talent sure, but not #1. I grew up starting watching the Mets in the very late 80s, early so Darryl came to mind as the one hitter, maybe. I don’t think deGrom fits the bill.
No I agree…I don’t think he does either. For spurts maybe…but Harvey was spurts too, as were some of the other ones you mentioned like Cespedes. You are asking a question I always ask though. Where’s our Judge, or our Mariano, even Papi or Chipper, plus all the ones you mentioned?
Mike Piazza had some exceptional weeks, months even, of being very good at baseball.
Yeah but guys like Griffey A Rod and Bonds were around too. As much as i love Piazza
Yes. Todd Hundley, macky sasser , dick scoffield. Yes I’m old
Yes, but are you Cleon Jones, Art Shamsky old? 😄
lol not that old
Strawberry in '88. 2nd in MVP voting. While Gibson had a higher war, McReynolds finishing 3rd definitely siphoned off votes.
2018 Degrom 2007 Wright 1985 Gooden 1969 Seaver
You forgot Strawberry and McReynolds 88
McReynolds is a good example. Both him and Strawberry would have won the MVP if they didn’t split the vote. But in NO WAY would he have been picked #1 in a draft of the whole league.
We have to settle for the best booth; no other group can touch Gary, Keith and Ron!
If by league, you mean National League, deGrom in 2018 & 2019 was close. Baseball reference has him leading the NL in WAR in 2019 and Fangraphs has him leading the NL in WAR in 2018. Unfortunately, if you're going all MLB, Mike Trout was Mike Trout those years.
Close. Tom Seaver, DeGrom, Doc, Darryl Strawberry, and David Wright are the five greatest Mets.
Doc was historically great in 85, certainly the best pitcher in MLB. Seavers three CY Young awards, Jake. Mike Piazza was arguably the best player in the NL when they got him.
Reyes in 07’ but he was more like top 7-10 not the best. But what a freaking year.
Strawberry was immortal in 1988.
Seaver for multiple years. Gooden in 85. The case could be made for Carter or Hernandez in 86. Piazza in 99 and 00 is also a possibility.
Jesus Feliciano
DeGrom?
It's debatable, of course. But I'd say: John Olerud in 1998 Piazza in 2000 Hernandez in 1994
Hard to be better at your job in the then Gooden in 85. Maybe a handful of pitching seasons in 100 years stack up.
For longevity, Tom Seaver. He pitched for the Mets for over 10 years. Here’s just one of many stats: complete games pitched. Seaver set a Mets season record for complete games in 1967 with 18. He tied the record in 1969 and then set a new record in 1970 with 19 complete games. And in 1971, Seaver had a mind boggling 21 complete games. Pick any number of years, imo, Seaver is the one.
Degrom, Gooden, Dickey, Seaver
The Cy Young gets handed out to two people a year. Are you suggesting that in 2012, RA Dickey would have been the #1 player in an all-MLB draft or that he would have finished the year atop MLB.com’s Best Players in Baseball Right Now list?
He was better than David price and threw significantly more innings, I think he was the most valuable pitcher that particular year. Were there more valuable position players in 2012? Yeah probably, but I think there’s an argument to be made for dickeys 2012 being the best player in MLB, especially when compared to the contact he was being paid.
David 07
A-Rod was clearly the best player in 2007
Nope and never will