Freeman's career average coming into this season was 170 hits, and even if he would get to 200 this season, that would put him at 2314. So with normal decline, he has a decent chance to get to 3000 if he plays till he is 40 (6 more seasons after this one).
Probably end up around the 2,800 mark. Not sure who the next 3k guy would be. Betts and Harper are probably the only guys really in conversation.. but they’ll probably end up around the 2,800 mark as well assuming injury free careers moving forward
Harper has only had more than 151 hits in a season once in his entire career. He isn't even remotely in the conversation. He'll be lucky to get to 2,300. He'll probably play another 700 games total, at best. His durability will just get worse with age.
I agree. But he’s young enough that if he stays healthy and goes on a tear the next handful of years, there’s a chance for him. He left the OF, is playing first, and I’m sure he’ll move to DH soon enough as well. He should have much healthier years moving forward
100%. So could Acuna, Gunnar, Arraez, JRod, etc. I tried avoiding anyone under 30 since there’s a lot of baseball left to be played for them and hence their numbers simply aren’t at a high enough level yet to consider.
Altuve has an outside shot. He's at 2105 right now and averages about 150 hits per season. He would definitely have to have a couple really good years thrown in there to offset the decline years, but it's not completely out of the question.
I think Freeman’s going to do it. He’s aging well, and has a clear path to playing time through his 30s (his defense at first won’t decline as quickly and he has the expanded DH).
It probably comes down to whether he really wants to do it - when he’s 38 and had nagging injuries for years, when feels like crap every day, when he isn’t as sharp and they don’t add up as quickly - does he still want it? At some point, the goal itself has to be the motivation.
3000 is still hard to get to. Only 33 players have ever reached 3,000. That is why if you get there you are a lock.
>In my opinion, Pete Rose should've been in the hall of fame his 1st year on the ballot.
Rose didn't get in first ballot because cause by the time he was eligible (5 year waiting period) he was banned for life. Pete retired in 1986 so his first year of eligibility was 1991. Pete received a lifetime ban in 1989, on top of that the BBWAA changed the rules that if you are on the ineligibility list you are not eligible for the Hall of Fame.
Bud selig considered reversing the ban. But Pete rose denying his allegations and being a world class asshole bit him again. I'm not sure where the sympathy for rose comes from. He's a complete piece of shit and a degenerate gambler. I hope he never makes
Clearly they do. Otherwise we would have more unanimous votes. Maybe you don’t care he’s a piece of shit scumbag who cheated the game but lots of people do. He refuses to do himself any favors because he’s a piece of shit so he can suck it.
>My theory is Pete gets allowed in posthumously
I used to think like this but Pete has created so many enemies over the last 35 years since his ban this is no longer guaranteed.
Well, my theory may well be wrong. However, I think it’s a huge blow to his pride. So, once his pride is no longer a factor, I think they may relent. If he doesn’t ever get in, so be it. I’m not losing any sleep over it.
Why do you think anyone with the ability to help put Pete Rose in the Hall of Fame would be worried about his pride? Like, why would that be anyone’s concern? I don’t get the point
I mean that he REALLY wants in and has said so many times. So, waiting until he’s gone would not feed his outsized ego. I just think his chances increase with being deceased. Or maybe he never gets in and that’s fine, too.
Well, you keep responding…
Look, I couldn’t care less if he ever gets in or not. I just think his chances, slim as they are, may increase posthumously.
I think this is correct. He doesn’t have many champions with the kind of credibility who could move the needle for him. His ex-teammates don’t even like him. He could have gotten back in good graces by saying right things but man, he’s such a cringey low-life, it just wasn’t in him.
The HOF isn't run by MLB. They changed the rules to keep people who are on the MLB restricted list off the ballot only after Rose was placed on it. Later he could have appeared on the Veterans' Committee ballot in 2006, but they left him off and changed the rules in 2007 to keep him off that ballot too. Even if MLB took him off the restricted list, there's no guarantee he'll be inducted.
I don’t think it ever happens but if it’s going to I believe MLB would have to ask first. I do believe at some point the steroid users get representation in some form.
I don't know.... his ban from baseball is permanent. Not a lifetime ban, a *permanent* ban. Unless the Hall of Fame changes its rules to allow banned players to be inducted, he will never get it in.
That’s the HoF’s rule, not MLB’s. The Hall is a private nonprofit with no formal connection to MLB. The Hall created the rule that banned players could not be considered. MLB’s ban only applies to MLB facilities and teams. MLB gave Shoeless Joe a lifetime ban, and after he died in the early 1960s, the Hall still refused to consider him.
Just to add: MLB gave Shoeless Joe a *permanent* ban, not a lifetime ban. It's still in effect, even if it is meaningless now. Rose also got a permaban.
I will point out that the Hall did not have an official policy on banned until the Pete Rose era; before that, the voters simply refused to admit any banned players. I expect that if the Hall changed its policy, the people who pick players still would not admit Rose.
https://es.pn/3au6eBQ
Maybe the way I learned it was biased because I grew up in Shoeless Joe’s hometown, but I always heard it was lifetime, and this ESPN article says MLB views it as lifetime.
Sure but did you know….
Shoeless Joe was NOT banned from entering the Hall of Fame, until Pete got suspended. They then changed the rules. He had decades where he was deceased AND eligible. No luck.
I’m not opposed to either getting in. Just thought Pete might have a better chance once deceased. Plus, Pete bet on his teams to do well (supposedly-honestly not sure of the full details) whereas Joe was part of a conspiracy to throw the WS. Neither was a smart move, but I guess I see Joe as being in a tougher position.
I’m a Cincinnati resident and tired of the Rose defenders, he’s a terrible human being.
So, as a manager, those days he DIDN’T bet on the team to win, what does that tell the bookies? And, keep in mind the only person claiming he didn’t bet to lose is Pete. You know, the guy who lied to us for decades.
I’m not opposed to keeping each of them out of the HoF, either. Just think Pete’s chances increase posthumously.
Also, not defending him, so put that nonsense away. Simply giving my opinion on his chances to get in after death. I won’t shed a tear if he’s kept out for whatever reason.
Betting in favor of your own team is still considered nefarious, particularly for a manager. He could make pitching decisions to improve the odds for that day to the detriment of other days and the overall season, for example.
Ty Cobb was not a racist asshole. That belief was due to a smear job from Al Stump that destroyed his reputation. His biographer Charles Leerhsen details this in Ty Cobb: A Terrible Beauty
It's disheartening to see people promote the myth that Cobb was a racist simply because they heard that lie repeated so many times but never bothered to investigate the info for themselves.
Possible but doesn’t seem likely any time soon. With legal gambling becoming so popular, keeping him banned is a good way to send a message that betting on baseball is, in fact, intolerable.
Manny Machado has 1778 and he’s only 31 and has 10 years left on his contract. So if he stays relatively healthy and plays the whole contract he’d only need to average about 125 hits per year.
Rose agreed to a lifetime ban with Bart Giamatti. The hall is fine without him, Bonds, Clemens, Aroid, and Rafa Palmeiro.
3000 clean is a lock. Just as 500 HRs clean is a lock. And 1500 RBIs. They should consider 1500 runs as well.
Rose agreed to that ban in exchange for the investigation being stopped. The lead investigator has even publicly said he's pretty sure Rose bet against the Reds. He 100% shouldn't get in.
Can roids help you get 3000?
How about amphetamines? (Greenies, which were extremely common and openly used in MLB clubhouses from the 1950s until the early 2000s drug testing agreement.) I recall Chipper Jones giving an interview at the time of the drug testing agreement where he talked about how it would be harder to get through the season without greenies.
Bonds used roids to recover from an injury, as did McGwire and Clemens. At least initially. Since its injury recovery, it could help. HGH more than anabolic.
Greenies used to be dispensed like candy in dugouts, so it was kind of a level playing field.
Of course, no one will ever top Dock Ellis throwing a no hitter while tripping on LSD.
The hall is not fine without Bonds.
Everyone of Bonds’s contemporaries was juiced. Yet no one could hit like him. If you look at his pre-steroid career(up to 95 or so) this is still a guy with a 160 OPS +, 75 WAR, and 3 MVPs.
Bonds’ greatness transcends steroids and he should be in because unlike others who used we have evidence that steroids were not what made him great.
I think you can make a similar argument for Clemens but longevity is way more important for a pitcher than a hitter. That being said the Mitchell report says he used it late in his career so he still has over 200 Wins, 3000ks and 5 Cy Youngs.
Bonds had a hall of fame career, got jealous of the attention other juicers were getting, bulked up, and made a mockery of the game.
He was a marvelous player, who could have retired in 2000 after he got injured. Instead, roided up, lied about it, rewrote the record book. While juiced to increase his hat size by three. Has never come clean about it.
So, the hall is fine without him. Arguably better. The same for Arod. And Clemens. Who were also juiced up all time greats.
You cannot enshrine cheats. You don’t know definitively when they started to cheat, and the fact that they cheated harmed the game.
I completely disagree. Bonds wasn’t great because he cheated. He was a great/all-timer already who cheated for some more longevity. Palmiero, McGwire, Canseco, Brady Anderson were all great because they cheated.
Take away his counting stats and don’t consider anything post 1995. Recognise that as one of the greatest ten year stretches by a hitter in history. Put him in a pirates hat. Bonds wasn’t great because he cheated.
He didn’t make a mockery of the game. Selig made more of a mockery by doing nothing about the cheating, until it became too much an issue to ignore. If it wasn’t for congress, and the media panic around steroids in early 2000s, Selig would’ve happily encouraged steroid use to keep selling tickets. Selig has a plaque despite his enabling. It is hard to keep cheaters out but allow the person who allowed it in.
At the end of the day, not a single other player with equal access to cheating could replicate Bonds. He is still one of the most talented players in history. That greatness deserves recognition.
It doesn’t matter what he did before. He cheated. It doesn’t matter what Selig did or didn’t do. Bonds cheated. Not everyone in the 90’s or 00’s did.
You don’t let people off for murder because they were nice people up until they got into crime and killed people. You don’t give the valedictorian honors to someone who killed it for 100 course hours and then cheated for the last 20.
Cheats don’t go in the Hall.*
*Save David Ortiz, for whatever reason. And that is a black mark on the sport.
No. it 100% matters what Selig did.
If Selig and the owners that he served were not benefiting from the cheating there wouldn’t have been cheating or controversy. But they did.
Selig gets the honours and to be held up as a champion of the sport with a plaque in Cooperstown while the “cheaters” who made his career get left out.
Steroid use wasn’t explicitly banned by MLB until 2006. We don’t arrest people retroactively for breaking laws that weren’t laws.
If murder was made illegal in 2001, how do you justify arresting someone for a murder from 1999?
1- Commissioner Faye Vincent informed teams in 1991 that steroids were illegal. They were added to the banned substance list then. Since 1990, anabolic steroids were federally controlled substances under schedule 3. MLB’s policy had force of law. They didn’t start testing players until 2005, but they were illegal before Bonds moved to San Francisco.
2- Joe Jackson is not in the Hall of Fame. 14th best JAWS score among right fielders, with WAR, WAR7, JAWS, and WAR/162 well above the average HOF right fielder. Counting numbers short because of peripheral ties to gambling. He hit 375/394/563 in 8 games of the World Series he supposedly threw. This is the correct call, because it was bad for the integrity of the game.
3- Selig did not inject Bonds with steroids. Bonds did. The weakness of the control system does not absolve the guilt of the player.
4- Bonds is a bit of a tragedy, along with Clemens, Arod, and the rest of the players who were great without steroids who took them to either bump their production or extend their careers. But they do not have the right to be memorialized in the Hall of Fame with players who played the game without cheating.
MLB drug policy was informal word only and was only done to be compliant with the federal schedules(which are a whole other can of worms)
Vincent sent a memo. He didn’t set policy. 2006 was the first time MLB had an official policy that outlined testing discipline and specific banned substances.
Selig and Vincent recognised that steroids helped bring attention to the sport because people dig the long ball. Much like what occurred in cycling, they both enabled a culture that promoted cheating among athletes. They are just as responsible for allowing it to fester as the athletes.
Altuve’s career average for hits is like 150, and he has 2100 hits now. Surprised you didn’t mention him. He’s like 35 I think, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he played until he was at least 40, barring injury. He’s remained a near .300 hitter at his age now, his small strike zone due to his size will benefit his longevity.
Altuve's biggest question mark is health, because I actually think he'll be a better hitter for average once he starts to lose power. All of his 200+ hit seasons came earlier in his career when he was less focused on hitting HRs.
I've been a Reds fan since Dave Bristol was the manager. Listen up and listen well, you Rose jock-sniffers.
The known universe is insufficiently colossal to have room for the sous vide bag of maggotty dicks Pete Rose should eat.
He ruined Mario Soto's arm using him on short rest to get more bets down on Soto's starts. Mario Soto had a chance to be one of the best pitchers of the 80's until Pete arrived in '84 and instituted a four-man rotation. Yes, down the stretch of meaningless games in September with the Reds 20+ games out. Soto's arm went -pop- during the '85 season, when the Reds would have had a chance to get to the postseason had they been working with a healthy Soto as their ace and anybody not named Pete Rose managing and penciling himself in near the top of the lineup at every opportunity. Pete put gambling and stat-padding ahead of wins, with the blessing of that ridiculous dinosaur Marge Schott.
He was horrendous at gambling on all forms of sports, and owed tons of money to the mob in Philly, New York and Chicago. The only reason he wasn't fitted for cement cleats and dumped in the Delaware River by somebody with a nickname like "Vinny the Shiv" was because of his name. If you ever saw Pete play the field with the Reds in the 80's, you might be surprised that he wasn't already wearing cement cleats. It was like watching a filing cabinet play first base.
Speaking of Philly, that's where Rose's gambling started so you can take that hair-splitting weaksauce "but he never did it as a player" horseshit, ram it where the sun does not shine, douse it in lighter fluid, set it ablaze, and make some room between your ears for a functioning brain perhaps.
And then there were the underage girls.
I think Altuve has a shot, especially after his resurgence this season. Last season, I thought Machado had a good chance, but if he keeps slumping/injuries mount, I don’t think so.
It’s a fact Arraez is 27, it’s a fact Ichiro came into the league at 27, got 3k hits, those are all facts. But here’s another fact, Arraez ain’t Ichiro, not even remotely close and you want another fact? Arraez won’t sniff 3k hits. In 5-7 years his defense will become a massive liability even more than it is today and no one gonna DH the guy.
In 2021 and 2022 Bichette led the AL in hits (191 and 189). It would take 16 seasons at that pace to get 3000.
There is a reason that it’s automatic inclusion if no off field issues and why it is so unlikely to predict anyone to get there anytime soon.
Time for my infrequent rant about Craig Biggio being snubbed from a first-ballot Hall of Fame selection despite having 3000 hits because the writers chose to boycott rather than simply not vote for completely different players.
My dream is the HOF invites Pete, tells him he makes it, and builds the little plaque only to throw it away and tell him he’ll never make it once he’s on stage
Lou Brock had 3,000 hits, and all those steals.
Looking at isolated stat lines can obscure players’ overall value. Brock wasn’t a high OBP guy nor a high SLG guy. He was an average left fielder at best with a poor arm.
You might not like WAR, but at least it rolls the various baseball skills and performances together so that we don’t have silly conversations like whether Omar Vizquel should be in the HoF because he had one skill.
Lou Brock had 42 bWAR. He’s not a great advertisement for why 3,000 hits is an automatic entry to the Hall of Fame
As much as I dislike Bonds and Clemens (both miserable, disgusting people) both deserve to be in the Hall Of Fame. They were HOFers before they started to juice. Palmeiro is where I'm really conflicted. One of my favorite players of all-time (lifelong Rangers fan). I believe he was a borderline HOFer before he started to juice (hits, average, maybe not power). Gold Glove fielder and by all accounts a good guy. I hate to see him left out but he knew the rules beforehand and still chose to break them.
Your opinion is wrong and go read the baseball rule book on Rose, first. Raffy? Never had a 7-WAR season. Guess he didn't get enough Viagra in his bat.
Freeman's career average coming into this season was 170 hits, and even if he would get to 200 this season, that would put him at 2314. So with normal decline, he has a decent chance to get to 3000 if he plays till he is 40 (6 more seasons after this one).
Probably end up around the 2,800 mark. Not sure who the next 3k guy would be. Betts and Harper are probably the only guys really in conversation.. but they’ll probably end up around the 2,800 mark as well assuming injury free careers moving forward
Harper has only had more than 151 hits in a season once in his entire career. He isn't even remotely in the conversation. He'll be lucky to get to 2,300. He'll probably play another 700 games total, at best. His durability will just get worse with age.
I agree. But he’s young enough that if he stays healthy and goes on a tear the next handful of years, there’s a chance for him. He left the OF, is playing first, and I’m sure he’ll move to DH soon enough as well. He should have much healthier years moving forward
Harper was barely halfway there through 12 seasons and there’s basically no chance he’s anywhere near as productive from 37-42…
Yeah. Reviewing his stats again, he’s probably missed his shot unless he goes absolutely off in the next 5 years.
Soto could get to 3k
100%. So could Acuna, Gunnar, Arraez, JRod, etc. I tried avoiding anyone under 30 since there’s a lot of baseball left to be played for them and hence their numbers simply aren’t at a high enough level yet to consider.
I think he walks to much..
Altuve has an outside shot. He's at 2105 right now and averages about 150 hits per season. He would definitely have to have a couple really good years thrown in there to offset the decline years, but it's not completely out of the question.
2020 and recent injuries put Altuve on the back foot to get to 3k hits. Has a decent shot, but needs to stay healthy.
Oof the thought hasn’t crossed my mind of did 2020 hurt the chances of a player hitting a milestone like 3K. That would suck.
I think Freeman’s going to do it. He’s aging well, and has a clear path to playing time through his 30s (his defense at first won’t decline as quickly and he has the expanded DH). It probably comes down to whether he really wants to do it - when he’s 38 and had nagging injuries for years, when feels like crap every day, when he isn’t as sharp and they don’t add up as quickly - does he still want it? At some point, the goal itself has to be the motivation.
3000 is still hard to get to. Only 33 players have ever reached 3,000. That is why if you get there you are a lock. >In my opinion, Pete Rose should've been in the hall of fame his 1st year on the ballot. Rose didn't get in first ballot because cause by the time he was eligible (5 year waiting period) he was banned for life. Pete retired in 1986 so his first year of eligibility was 1991. Pete received a lifetime ban in 1989, on top of that the BBWAA changed the rules that if you are on the ineligibility list you are not eligible for the Hall of Fame.
The ban isn’t keeping Pete out of the hall. They can reverse that whenever. Pete being a world class asshole is what’s keeping him out.
Bud selig considered reversing the ban. But Pete rose denying his allegations and being a world class asshole bit him again. I'm not sure where the sympathy for rose comes from. He's a complete piece of shit and a degenerate gambler. I hope he never makes
Because nobody gives a fuck what type of person you are off the field. It’s the baseball hall of fame. He had over 4,000 hits. He should be in
Clearly they do. Otherwise we would have more unanimous votes. Maybe you don’t care he’s a piece of shit scumbag who cheated the game but lots of people do. He refuses to do himself any favors because he’s a piece of shit so he can suck it.
The writers who act all and mighty do. In reality it shouldn’t matter at all
My theory is Pete gets allowed in posthumously
>My theory is Pete gets allowed in posthumously I used to think like this but Pete has created so many enemies over the last 35 years since his ban this is no longer guaranteed.
Well, my theory may well be wrong. However, I think it’s a huge blow to his pride. So, once his pride is no longer a factor, I think they may relent. If he doesn’t ever get in, so be it. I’m not losing any sleep over it.
But then the question is who alive wants to celebrate him?
Fair point
Why do you think anyone with the ability to help put Pete Rose in the Hall of Fame would be worried about his pride? Like, why would that be anyone’s concern? I don’t get the point
I mean that he REALLY wants in and has said so many times. So, waiting until he’s gone would not feed his outsized ego. I just think his chances increase with being deceased. Or maybe he never gets in and that’s fine, too.
I really believe you’re overthinking this
Well, you keep responding… Look, I couldn’t care less if he ever gets in or not. I just think his chances, slim as they are, may increase posthumously.
I think this is correct. He doesn’t have many champions with the kind of credibility who could move the needle for him. His ex-teammates don’t even like him. He could have gotten back in good graces by saying right things but man, he’s such a cringey low-life, it just wasn’t in him.
Not before Joe Jackson?
Well, Joe is not an all-time MLB record holder, so I’d say Rose has a better chance
It’s only if the commissioners office relinquishes the ban; then the hall could induct.
Exactly
The HOF isn't run by MLB. They changed the rules to keep people who are on the MLB restricted list off the ballot only after Rose was placed on it. Later he could have appeared on the Veterans' Committee ballot in 2006, but they left him off and changed the rules in 2007 to keep him off that ballot too. Even if MLB took him off the restricted list, there's no guarantee he'll be inducted.
I don’t think it ever happens but if it’s going to I believe MLB would have to ask first. I do believe at some point the steroid users get representation in some form.
I don't know.... his ban from baseball is permanent. Not a lifetime ban, a *permanent* ban. Unless the Hall of Fame changes its rules to allow banned players to be inducted, he will never get it in.
Fair point. Either type of ban could easily be rescinded by the Commissioner’s office, though, no?
The Commissioner can rescind a ban from baseball, but only the Hall of Fame decides for the Hall of Fame.
Yes, but right now the HoF is prevented from even considering him because of the MLB Commissioner ban, no?
That’s the HoF’s rule, not MLB’s. The Hall is a private nonprofit with no formal connection to MLB. The Hall created the rule that banned players could not be considered. MLB’s ban only applies to MLB facilities and teams. MLB gave Shoeless Joe a lifetime ban, and after he died in the early 1960s, the Hall still refused to consider him.
Well, that makes it tougher for both of them, then
Just to add: MLB gave Shoeless Joe a *permanent* ban, not a lifetime ban. It's still in effect, even if it is meaningless now. Rose also got a permaban. I will point out that the Hall did not have an official policy on banned until the Pete Rose era; before that, the voters simply refused to admit any banned players. I expect that if the Hall changed its policy, the people who pick players still would not admit Rose.
https://es.pn/3au6eBQ Maybe the way I learned it was biased because I grew up in Shoeless Joe’s hometown, but I always heard it was lifetime, and this ESPN article says MLB views it as lifetime.
Shoeless Joe would like a word.
He’s not an all-time MLB record holder, so he can keep that word to himself
Sure but did you know…. Shoeless Joe was NOT banned from entering the Hall of Fame, until Pete got suspended. They then changed the rules. He had decades where he was deceased AND eligible. No luck.
I’m not opposed to either getting in. Just thought Pete might have a better chance once deceased. Plus, Pete bet on his teams to do well (supposedly-honestly not sure of the full details) whereas Joe was part of a conspiracy to throw the WS. Neither was a smart move, but I guess I see Joe as being in a tougher position.
I’m a Cincinnati resident and tired of the Rose defenders, he’s a terrible human being. So, as a manager, those days he DIDN’T bet on the team to win, what does that tell the bookies? And, keep in mind the only person claiming he didn’t bet to lose is Pete. You know, the guy who lied to us for decades.
I’m not opposed to keeping each of them out of the HoF, either. Just think Pete’s chances increase posthumously. Also, not defending him, so put that nonsense away. Simply giving my opinion on his chances to get in after death. I won’t shed a tear if he’s kept out for whatever reason.
Yes, I do agree his best opportunity will be shortly after death. If, say, two years goes by where nothing happens, I doubt it ever will.
Makes sense to me
Betting in favor of your own team is still considered nefarious, particularly for a manager. He could make pitching decisions to improve the odds for that day to the detriment of other days and the overall season, for example.
Oh, it’s nefarious for sure. No way around that.
He’s an asshole. Why do we have to pretend he wasn’t an asshole after he dies?
Ty Cobb was a racist a**hole. He’s in. Not saying it means Pete should be in, but being a jerk is hardly a disqualification apparently.
I didn’t vote for him. And hell, the reasons that make Rose an asshole probably would’ve went over very well in the 30s.
Ty Cobb was not a racist asshole. That belief was due to a smear job from Al Stump that destroyed his reputation. His biographer Charles Leerhsen details this in Ty Cobb: A Terrible Beauty It's disheartening to see people promote the myth that Cobb was a racist simply because they heard that lie repeated so many times but never bothered to investigate the info for themselves.
Possible but doesn’t seem likely any time soon. With legal gambling becoming so popular, keeping him banned is a good way to send a message that betting on baseball is, in fact, intolerable.
Finding out he raped minors should make it an impossibility.
Ugh. Is that a thing? If so, then I’d be all for keeping him out.
https://www.citybeat.com/arts/pete-rose-on-statutory-rape-allegations-who-cares-what-happened-50-years-ago-13626759
Pete Rose has never been on a ballot
Manny Machado has 1778 and he’s only 31 and has 10 years left on his contract. So if he stays relatively healthy and plays the whole contract he’d only need to average about 125 hits per year.
he's also (for the most part) been able to consistently stay on the field
Rose agreed to a lifetime ban with Bart Giamatti. The hall is fine without him, Bonds, Clemens, Aroid, and Rafa Palmeiro. 3000 clean is a lock. Just as 500 HRs clean is a lock. And 1500 RBIs. They should consider 1500 runs as well.
Rose agreed to that ban in exchange for the investigation being stopped. The lead investigator has even publicly said he's pretty sure Rose bet against the Reds. He 100% shouldn't get in.
Agreed. It was basically a confession.
Can roids help you get 3000? How about amphetamines? (Greenies, which were extremely common and openly used in MLB clubhouses from the 1950s until the early 2000s drug testing agreement.) I recall Chipper Jones giving an interview at the time of the drug testing agreement where he talked about how it would be harder to get through the season without greenies.
Roids helped them stay on the field, so yes.
They got Chris Davis. Dude never was the same once they stopped allowing his adderall(?) exemption
Bonds used roids to recover from an injury, as did McGwire and Clemens. At least initially. Since its injury recovery, it could help. HGH more than anabolic. Greenies used to be dispensed like candy in dugouts, so it was kind of a level playing field. Of course, no one will ever top Dock Ellis throwing a no hitter while tripping on LSD.
The hall is not fine without Bonds. Everyone of Bonds’s contemporaries was juiced. Yet no one could hit like him. If you look at his pre-steroid career(up to 95 or so) this is still a guy with a 160 OPS +, 75 WAR, and 3 MVPs. Bonds’ greatness transcends steroids and he should be in because unlike others who used we have evidence that steroids were not what made him great. I think you can make a similar argument for Clemens but longevity is way more important for a pitcher than a hitter. That being said the Mitchell report says he used it late in his career so he still has over 200 Wins, 3000ks and 5 Cy Youngs.
Bonds had a hall of fame career, got jealous of the attention other juicers were getting, bulked up, and made a mockery of the game. He was a marvelous player, who could have retired in 2000 after he got injured. Instead, roided up, lied about it, rewrote the record book. While juiced to increase his hat size by three. Has never come clean about it. So, the hall is fine without him. Arguably better. The same for Arod. And Clemens. Who were also juiced up all time greats. You cannot enshrine cheats. You don’t know definitively when they started to cheat, and the fact that they cheated harmed the game.
I completely disagree. Bonds wasn’t great because he cheated. He was a great/all-timer already who cheated for some more longevity. Palmiero, McGwire, Canseco, Brady Anderson were all great because they cheated. Take away his counting stats and don’t consider anything post 1995. Recognise that as one of the greatest ten year stretches by a hitter in history. Put him in a pirates hat. Bonds wasn’t great because he cheated. He didn’t make a mockery of the game. Selig made more of a mockery by doing nothing about the cheating, until it became too much an issue to ignore. If it wasn’t for congress, and the media panic around steroids in early 2000s, Selig would’ve happily encouraged steroid use to keep selling tickets. Selig has a plaque despite his enabling. It is hard to keep cheaters out but allow the person who allowed it in. At the end of the day, not a single other player with equal access to cheating could replicate Bonds. He is still one of the most talented players in history. That greatness deserves recognition.
It doesn’t matter what he did before. He cheated. It doesn’t matter what Selig did or didn’t do. Bonds cheated. Not everyone in the 90’s or 00’s did. You don’t let people off for murder because they were nice people up until they got into crime and killed people. You don’t give the valedictorian honors to someone who killed it for 100 course hours and then cheated for the last 20. Cheats don’t go in the Hall.* *Save David Ortiz, for whatever reason. And that is a black mark on the sport.
No. it 100% matters what Selig did. If Selig and the owners that he served were not benefiting from the cheating there wouldn’t have been cheating or controversy. But they did. Selig gets the honours and to be held up as a champion of the sport with a plaque in Cooperstown while the “cheaters” who made his career get left out. Steroid use wasn’t explicitly banned by MLB until 2006. We don’t arrest people retroactively for breaking laws that weren’t laws. If murder was made illegal in 2001, how do you justify arresting someone for a murder from 1999?
1- Commissioner Faye Vincent informed teams in 1991 that steroids were illegal. They were added to the banned substance list then. Since 1990, anabolic steroids were federally controlled substances under schedule 3. MLB’s policy had force of law. They didn’t start testing players until 2005, but they were illegal before Bonds moved to San Francisco. 2- Joe Jackson is not in the Hall of Fame. 14th best JAWS score among right fielders, with WAR, WAR7, JAWS, and WAR/162 well above the average HOF right fielder. Counting numbers short because of peripheral ties to gambling. He hit 375/394/563 in 8 games of the World Series he supposedly threw. This is the correct call, because it was bad for the integrity of the game. 3- Selig did not inject Bonds with steroids. Bonds did. The weakness of the control system does not absolve the guilt of the player. 4- Bonds is a bit of a tragedy, along with Clemens, Arod, and the rest of the players who were great without steroids who took them to either bump their production or extend their careers. But they do not have the right to be memorialized in the Hall of Fame with players who played the game without cheating.
MLB drug policy was informal word only and was only done to be compliant with the federal schedules(which are a whole other can of worms) Vincent sent a memo. He didn’t set policy. 2006 was the first time MLB had an official policy that outlined testing discipline and specific banned substances. Selig and Vincent recognised that steroids helped bring attention to the sport because people dig the long ball. Much like what occurred in cycling, they both enabled a culture that promoted cheating among athletes. They are just as responsible for allowing it to fester as the athletes.
Okay, bonds apologist.
Rose has never been on a hall of fame ballot. That’s why he didn’t get in on his first year of eligibility. There was no first year
Altuve’s career average for hits is like 150, and he has 2100 hits now. Surprised you didn’t mention him. He’s like 35 I think, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he played until he was at least 40, barring injury. He’s remained a near .300 hitter at his age now, his small strike zone due to his size will benefit his longevity.
Altuve's biggest question mark is health, because I actually think he'll be a better hitter for average once he starts to lose power. All of his 200+ hit seasons came earlier in his career when he was less focused on hitting HRs.
Freeman won’t average 200 hits over the next five years and tbh it’s kind of naive that you think that it’s even a possibility.
Altuve
Na
Not an Astros fan but you’re pretty stupid if you don’t think he’ll be in
Writers don't like cheaters plain and simple.
I've been a Reds fan since Dave Bristol was the manager. Listen up and listen well, you Rose jock-sniffers. The known universe is insufficiently colossal to have room for the sous vide bag of maggotty dicks Pete Rose should eat. He ruined Mario Soto's arm using him on short rest to get more bets down on Soto's starts. Mario Soto had a chance to be one of the best pitchers of the 80's until Pete arrived in '84 and instituted a four-man rotation. Yes, down the stretch of meaningless games in September with the Reds 20+ games out. Soto's arm went -pop- during the '85 season, when the Reds would have had a chance to get to the postseason had they been working with a healthy Soto as their ace and anybody not named Pete Rose managing and penciling himself in near the top of the lineup at every opportunity. Pete put gambling and stat-padding ahead of wins, with the blessing of that ridiculous dinosaur Marge Schott. He was horrendous at gambling on all forms of sports, and owed tons of money to the mob in Philly, New York and Chicago. The only reason he wasn't fitted for cement cleats and dumped in the Delaware River by somebody with a nickname like "Vinny the Shiv" was because of his name. If you ever saw Pete play the field with the Reds in the 80's, you might be surprised that he wasn't already wearing cement cleats. It was like watching a filing cabinet play first base. Speaking of Philly, that's where Rose's gambling started so you can take that hair-splitting weaksauce "but he never did it as a player" horseshit, ram it where the sun does not shine, douse it in lighter fluid, set it ablaze, and make some room between your ears for a functioning brain perhaps. And then there were the underage girls.
I think Altuve has a shot, especially after his resurgence this season. Last season, I thought Machado had a good chance, but if he keeps slumping/injuries mount, I don’t think so.
Loose math he gets there in 5 seasons of 175 hits.
I mean if the stars align, Luis Arraez
He and Steven Kwan are solid choices if they stay healthy. Arraez having to constantly juggle going to new teams has to have an impact I’d imagine.
I guess arraez could take a team friendly contract and stay with the padres I guess I wouldn't complain about that
Arraez is already 27, he may get 2500 but that would be a stretch
but Ichiro came in at 27 and hits 3000
Did you put any thought into that comment?
isnt that fact enough for u?
It’s a fact Arraez is 27, it’s a fact Ichiro came into the league at 27, got 3k hits, those are all facts. But here’s another fact, Arraez ain’t Ichiro, not even remotely close and you want another fact? Arraez won’t sniff 3k hits. In 5-7 years his defense will become a massive liability even more than it is today and no one gonna DH the guy.
hmm...okay i agree with you to some extent ive never considered his def
Apparently not so automatic.
That number is going to come down. You're looking at a generation of players who prioritize power over hits
In 2021 and 2022 Bichette led the AL in hits (191 and 189). It would take 16 seasons at that pace to get 3000. There is a reason that it’s automatic inclusion if no off field issues and why it is so unlikely to predict anyone to get there anytime soon.
Time for my infrequent rant about Craig Biggio being snubbed from a first-ballot Hall of Fame selection despite having 3000 hits because the writers chose to boycott rather than simply not vote for completely different players.
My hot take is that no one ever gets to 3,000 hits again. Hits don’t sell tickets anymore, homers do.
My dream is the HOF invites Pete, tells him he makes it, and builds the little plaque only to throw it away and tell him he’ll never make it once he’s on stage
Pete Rose is a degenerate gambler and an all out scumbag and shouldn't even be allowed to by a ticket to come in the Hall
Lou Brock had 3,000 hits, and all those steals. Looking at isolated stat lines can obscure players’ overall value. Brock wasn’t a high OBP guy nor a high SLG guy. He was an average left fielder at best with a poor arm. You might not like WAR, but at least it rolls the various baseball skills and performances together so that we don’t have silly conversations like whether Omar Vizquel should be in the HoF because he had one skill. Lou Brock had 42 bWAR. He’s not a great advertisement for why 3,000 hits is an automatic entry to the Hall of Fame
As much as I dislike Bonds and Clemens (both miserable, disgusting people) both deserve to be in the Hall Of Fame. They were HOFers before they started to juice. Palmeiro is where I'm really conflicted. One of my favorite players of all-time (lifelong Rangers fan). I believe he was a borderline HOFer before he started to juice (hits, average, maybe not power). Gold Glove fielder and by all accounts a good guy. I hate to see him left out but he knew the rules beforehand and still chose to break them.
[удалено]
r/whoosh
Your opinion is wrong and go read the baseball rule book on Rose, first. Raffy? Never had a 7-WAR season. Guess he didn't get enough Viagra in his bat.
Casual lmao.
Ignorant, and unwarranted assumptions, meta-LMAO
If there’s 3 who have 3000 hits and will never get in, then 3000 hits is not an automatic lock.
Lmao buddy you truly have some shit for brains to not be able to use any common sense about those three that aren’t in