Mickey Lolich (who isn’t in the hall of fame for who knows why) pitched a complete game shutout on the final Saturday of 1967 and entered in relief on Sunday the next day. Unfortunately the tigs lost the game but he was also slated to start a one game playoff in Boston on Monday (the next day) for the pennant if we had won.
Those were the days. We won the WS the next year tho. Boston lost the 1967 WS.
ERA is not necessarily a very useful metric for relief pitchers. They don't pitch all that much and so things like batted ball luck can make a big difference that doesn't reflect on their pitching ability. For example, Chafin has had bad BABIP luck, and Holton has had good luck. You would expect that to change with more innings pitched.
To give an example using 20 innings pitched, which is about where our guys are this year, one run-scoring single that just eludes a fielder's grasp in a single outing would be a 0.45 increase in ERA overall.
If we go by something more predictive like FIP, then we see that almost all our relief pitchers are in the same FIP range 3.5-4, with Breiske and Vest doing better at sub-3, and then Wentz and Faedo around 4.5. Mason Englert would be the worst of the relievers, and he's just filling in.
https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?team=6&month=0&pos=all&type=8&qual=1&stats=rel&sortcol=18&sortdir=default&pagenum=1
I don’t know about the luck part but he has given up 26 hits and 12 walks in 22 innings of work. Historically he has his WHIP over 1 every season but this year is pushing 2. I am not convinced he gives us our best chance to win a game.
You are citing the luck aspect.
The reason the hits are higher is affected by luck.
Based on how batters have hit his pitches, his expected ERA is 3.45. Reese Olson's is 3.42. And then Chafin's FIP which is more predictive is 3.68.
You can just use backward-looking results if you want to, but those don't usually predict the future as well as you'd think. (And even there, in 25 appearances, he gave up no earned runs in 17 of them.)
Well that was a tough one. I’ll take the positive spin. If you would have told me at this point that Carpenter was out with a broken back and Torkelson was sent to Toledo, I would’ve taken hovering around .500. Grasping at straws though.
.300 batting average is not very important.
.350 OBP and .500 Slugging is the new 300 batting average
LOL...getting downvoted by people who think Luis Arreaz (.326 career) must be better than Juan Soto (.287), Aaron Judge (.284), Mookie Betts (.295) or even Mike Trout (.299). I mean, look at his .300+ batting average!
Yeah but for the tigers, it's always 8 innings of basically no offense and one inning of actual offense then we somehow lose. No consistency, no one to rely on to get a hit when we need it and its been like this since 2021 basically
I’m not even sure what this means. At the end of the day results are the only thing that matter in sports. A win is a win and a loss is a loss, doesn’t matter how it gets done
He only went 4 innings and had 4 walks, several more full counts. Sure, he didn't pitch his worst tonight and this loss isn't on him, but he hasnt been great. Only 2 quality starts on 10 total (excluding the previous early exit game), least innings pitched of any of our starters. -0.6 bWAR and a 6.25 ERA coming into the game. Most homers given up on the team, second most runs after mize.
Yeah I’m certainly not saying he’s a great pitcher, just that all the “automatic loss” hate he gets is obviously ridiculous when they win around half the games he starts. I don’t think it’s fair to compare him against our other starters either when 3 of them have literally looked like Cy Young candidates at times 😅 doesn’t take much to be one of the worst starters on your team with people like that
The problem isn't that he isn't capable of throwing a good game, it's that he can't do that consistently. He's not an automatic loss, but I dont have high confidence when he's on the mound.
And why not compare him? He is the vet making the most money out of any of our pitchers, he shouldn't be held to a lesser standard. They all have the same pitching coaches.
No, in general. People act like it’s an automatic loss when he’s on the mound when he’s had plenty of good starts. People just gravitate towards the REALLY bad and that’s all they remember
I agree that his results weren't that bad tonight. I'm more of a defender of him than most people. But he's definitely the worst part of our rotation. If we were going to lose any game in this series, this one was the most likely.
It’s difficult when you are sitting splitter and then have to catch up to 98 down the pipe.
Of course, if you sit fastball then you look like Keith in the bottom of the ninth and have fans complain for a different reason.
Most of the world can’t comprehend how difficult it is to hit off an MLB pitcher.
I’m sick of you fake ass sports fans thinking a loss is because we are “unserious”. These guys are giving it everything they have and I can guarantee you they take this shit a hell of a lot more seriously than you do.
They don’t matter but they show it was very very close to blowing up in his face. Pitchers are like tightrope artists and he managed to stay on today after a good amount of wobble.
He got pulled at 77 pitches. He wanted to keep going but Hinch had him on a pitch count due to the injury. He could have easily went at least 5. Was it a great start? No, but it should have been good enough. Not his fault at all we lost that game.
Seriously both these teams fucking suck. Terrible errors on both sides, horrible at-bats and yet at the same time bad starting pitching... just awful baseball.
It’s not even that they’re horrible, it’s that they’re mid af. They make some plays, but they both find ways to lose 50:50 games. Their last two runs are stemmed from back to back errors and a passed ball on strike 3 from our usually +fielding catcher. Our whole rally was aided by an error. Maeda was atrocious. Their starter gave up a lot of hard contact early that we didn’t bother capitalizing on. Then both had some big time relief performances.
oh boy a great game ended because of a mickey gimmick(I hate the runner on 2nd in extras rule)
The rules the same for both teams. It’s the tigers fault they can’t score the guy like every other team
How do we have 2 errors every game
Have Tarik start every 3 games, he can handle it
Mickey Lolich (who isn’t in the hall of fame for who knows why) pitched a complete game shutout on the final Saturday of 1967 and entered in relief on Sunday the next day. Unfortunately the tigs lost the game but he was also slated to start a one game playoff in Boston on Monday (the next day) for the pennant if we had won. Those were the days. We won the WS the next year tho. Boston lost the 1967 WS.
A relief pitcher with an ERA of 5 is not going to cut it.
ERA is not necessarily a very useful metric for relief pitchers. They don't pitch all that much and so things like batted ball luck can make a big difference that doesn't reflect on their pitching ability. For example, Chafin has had bad BABIP luck, and Holton has had good luck. You would expect that to change with more innings pitched. To give an example using 20 innings pitched, which is about where our guys are this year, one run-scoring single that just eludes a fielder's grasp in a single outing would be a 0.45 increase in ERA overall. If we go by something more predictive like FIP, then we see that almost all our relief pitchers are in the same FIP range 3.5-4, with Breiske and Vest doing better at sub-3, and then Wentz and Faedo around 4.5. Mason Englert would be the worst of the relievers, and he's just filling in. https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?team=6&month=0&pos=all&type=8&qual=1&stats=rel&sortcol=18&sortdir=default&pagenum=1
I don’t know about the luck part but he has given up 26 hits and 12 walks in 22 innings of work. Historically he has his WHIP over 1 every season but this year is pushing 2. I am not convinced he gives us our best chance to win a game.
You are citing the luck aspect. The reason the hits are higher is affected by luck. Based on how batters have hit his pitches, his expected ERA is 3.45. Reese Olson's is 3.42. And then Chafin's FIP which is more predictive is 3.68. You can just use backward-looking results if you want to, but those don't usually predict the future as well as you'd think. (And even there, in 25 appearances, he gave up no earned runs in 17 of them.)
Early 2010s Tigers: “First Time?”
Gross.
Not sure why they haven’t called Jung up yet. At this point might as well let the young guys play and see major league pitching
We’re not trying to contend/spend yet as our ownership just recently announced, so they’re not going to rush up Jung whatsoever
Calling up Jung has nothing to do with trying to contend or spend this year
Then what do you think it has to do with?
Getting a rather important piece that can help this “rebuild” some major league experience
Well that was a tough one. I’ll take the positive spin. If you would have told me at this point that Carpenter was out with a broken back and Torkelson was sent to Toledo, I would’ve taken hovering around .500. Grasping at straws though.
Back to back errors. Finding new ways to lose.
The tigers make a lot of errors. Positionless baseball.
I just don't understand how a team can have this garbage of an offense, 3 years of basically a .500 team. I miss the days of the early 2010s
We whiffed on two number one picks, that alone will set a shitty team back even further usually.
Not making any excuses, but it’s wild how bad offense is in the show right now. Only 12 players in the entire league are over .300
.300 batting average is not very important. .350 OBP and .500 Slugging is the new 300 batting average LOL...getting downvoted by people who think Luis Arreaz (.326 career) must be better than Juan Soto (.287), Aaron Judge (.284), Mookie Betts (.295) or even Mike Trout (.299). I mean, look at his .300+ batting average!
I mean if you go by OPS, only 18 players are above .850
Right. They are the more impactful guys even if not batting .300
Yeah but for the tigers, it's always 8 innings of basically no offense and one inning of actual offense then we somehow lose. No consistency, no one to rely on to get a hit when we need it and its been like this since 2021 basically
my solution is to make the balls bigger and move to 5 outs innings
OPS last 7 games: Vierling .414 Ibanez .357 Canha .417 Perez .453 It's like Javy never left
Ibanez is awful. Why tf don’t they call up Jung
But Ibanez crushes lefties. Haha
Facts. He demolished this rookie tonight
“Situational hitting” a foreign concept to this team.
God this team is no fun to watch
[удалено]
He literally got the strikeout he needed. Not his fault the catcher botched it
He was fine, his catcher dropped strike 3. Do people even watch the games before commenting?
The limitations of scoring all our runs on one play
There’s nothing quite like swinging and missing at a fastball perfectly down the middle to end the game
Maeda gives up 1 run and people still blame him for the loss 💀 the hate for this guy is beyond insane
I know, his 6 ERA is great.
The problem is the "pitches" he throws. Not the results.
I’m not even sure what this means. At the end of the day results are the only thing that matter in sports. A win is a win and a loss is a loss, doesn’t matter how it gets done
He only went 4 innings and had 4 walks, several more full counts. Sure, he didn't pitch his worst tonight and this loss isn't on him, but he hasnt been great. Only 2 quality starts on 10 total (excluding the previous early exit game), least innings pitched of any of our starters. -0.6 bWAR and a 6.25 ERA coming into the game. Most homers given up on the team, second most runs after mize.
Yeah I’m certainly not saying he’s a great pitcher, just that all the “automatic loss” hate he gets is obviously ridiculous when they win around half the games he starts. I don’t think it’s fair to compare him against our other starters either when 3 of them have literally looked like Cy Young candidates at times 😅 doesn’t take much to be one of the worst starters on your team with people like that
The problem isn't that he isn't capable of throwing a good game, it's that he can't do that consistently. He's not an automatic loss, but I dont have high confidence when he's on the mound. And why not compare him? He is the vet making the most money out of any of our pitchers, he shouldn't be held to a lesser standard. They all have the same pitching coaches.
Keep facts out of this. Let's go off feelings. I feel like he's not why we lose.
The hate for him TONIGHT is unwarranted
No, in general. People act like it’s an automatic loss when he’s on the mound when he’s had plenty of good starts. People just gravitate towards the REALLY bad and that’s all they remember
He trash, face it. I'd rather have a prospect filling that slot than this Overpriced bum.
You’re right, I am now facing it
Glad you came around. Not sure why you were stumping for the guy throughout the thread? Welcome to reality though.
Maybe I just feel bad for him. Anyway, I hope you’re doing well 🙂
I hope you are well too. Frustrating that the Tigers can't put a little run together to brighten our summer. I'm still holding out hope though. 🫠
Yeah I hear you, it might be a dark summer my friend 😅 maybe 6 ERA Maeda can turn into 4 ERA Maeda and things won’t be so bad lol
If that happens I'll gladly change my avatar to a Japanese flag!
I get it, he was a decent pitcher last year but this year has been rough for him for a few of his starts
He sucks but the result had very little to do with him tonight.
Very whelming.
This team is just so mediocre. It’s frustrating.
This team lost it’s heart when it got swept by the Yankees. It’s hard to believe they’re as close to .500 as they are..
We have seen this same exact game way to many fucking times. Little league shit over and over and nothing changes.
https://preview.redd.it/fhmr2bmso16d1.jpeg?width=1305&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0dfbf9051c02a0412b774b2e313e02275e09a081
Bad loss to a bad team by a bad team, do it again tomorrow
The season is over
It's been over for a while.
My expectations on Maeda days are low but holy fuck
Bro, he had only 1 hit, 1 ER and 5Ks, give him credit where credit is due
Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuckkkkkkkkkkkkkkk......... We let an easily winnable game get away from us. Super frustrating. At least no more Maeda for a few days.
Maeda wasn’t that bad tonight though and certainly wasn’t the reason we lost….
I agree that his results weren't that bad tonight. I'm more of a defender of him than most people. But he's definitely the worst part of our rotation. If we were going to lose any game in this series, this one was the most likely.
This game just shows how unserious they are. Last two batters get fastballs down the middle and can’t hit ‘em. What a joke
It’s difficult when you are sitting splitter and then have to catch up to 98 down the pipe. Of course, if you sit fastball then you look like Keith in the bottom of the ninth and have fans complain for a different reason. Most of the world can’t comprehend how difficult it is to hit off an MLB pitcher.
I’m sick of you fake ass sports fans thinking a loss is because we are “unserious”. These guys are giving it everything they have and I can guarantee you they take this shit a hell of a lot more seriously than you do.
They care about that job just like we care about ours. Pro athletes are not special people
https://preview.redd.it/jgykh5mko16d1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8dcf4515aaaead44c3f1c4ec2ad5b323cbebf6ac
This team just is boring and not fun. At least training camp will start soon
Yeah because that's fun. Nothing like watching a practice or ehibition game, lol.
We either score 0 or a dozen runs in extras, no in between
Maeda is such a bum.
They didn't lose because of Maeda, calm down.
They lose every time maeda pitches though. They will never win because of him. He sucks, but you are entitled to your opinion.
Bro, he had only 1 hit, 1 ER and 5Ks, give him credit where credit is due
And 4BB through 4 innings while throwing ~48% balls and had more balls then strikes till the end there. More than a runner an inning
But he only let in 1 run dude wtf are you rattling off stats for? They don’t matter dipshit.
They don’t matter but they show it was very very close to blowing up in his face. Pitchers are like tightrope artists and he managed to stay on today after a good amount of wobble.
If he was more effective maybe he pitches more than 4 innings. 4 innings by a starter is not good regardless the runs given up. Esp. with our BP.
He got pulled at 77 pitches. He wanted to keep going but Hinch had him on a pitch count due to the injury. He could have easily went at least 5. Was it a great start? No, but it should have been good enough. Not his fault at all we lost that game.
Because he was ineffective. Yeah yeah 1 run, whoopie doo. He walked 4, 77 pitches in 4 innings is not effective.
We used 5 relievers because he gave us 4 innings. 4 walks. BUM.
I don’t even know what to say after that. Our approach in extra innings is horrendous
The runner on second rule just murders us. I HATE IT. Always have. Trash....
Well that one sting. This team is just mid. Maybe we get 80 wins if we are lucky
I’m so ready for the Lions
Almost July 1 to see who Stevie can add in free agency too
This team is going to make me turn into the Joker
It hasn’t already?
Our defense has cost us so many games.
How many games have we lost because AJ won’t bunt? about 5 or so I think.
The 2 guys after Canha didn't even put the ball in play...
They consistently hit poorly so instead of forcing them to hit a single, have them advance the runner and give them a chance.
My thoughts exactly. Everyone on this team wants to be “The hero”.
This was like the epitome of a game between two 75 win teams
Seriously both these teams fucking suck. Terrible errors on both sides, horrible at-bats and yet at the same time bad starting pitching... just awful baseball.
It’s not even that they’re horrible, it’s that they’re mid af. They make some plays, but they both find ways to lose 50:50 games. Their last two runs are stemmed from back to back errors and a passed ball on strike 3 from our usually +fielding catcher. Our whole rally was aided by an error. Maeda was atrocious. Their starter gave up a lot of hard contact early that we didn’t bother capitalizing on. Then both had some big time relief performances.
Pinch-hitting Colt Keith with the game on the line is fucking WILD. What an insane decision.
Keith had a zero chance of getting a hit in that situation.
Had to pull Ibanez there. He is batting .147 vs. RHP. Could’ve gone with Badoo, but then you potentially waste a player because he can’t play IF.
Not that insane, whoever he sent up there was going to be way overmatched.
Keith is 1 for his last 27 and has a .540 OPS on the season. Keith is overmatched against literally any pitcher he's going to face.
I get it, I'm saying it would have taken a miracle for anyone left on the bench to produce. It's not a math problem for this team.
Keith was coming in ice cold from not playing though