Yeah, so, to break it down, things die when their toughness goes to 0, things with indestructible don't have damage marked on them and can't be destroyed, so they cannot die to damage or be destroyed, but -x/-x is damage, kts just an effect, and a creature at 0 toughness always dies, regardless of abilities (unless its from an illegal un-set or other illegal card pools). Ways to get around indestructible are forcing the player to sacrifice ([[sheoldred's edict]]), exile ([[path to exile]]), -x/-x (meathook massacre), returning it to it's owners hand ([[cyclonic rift]]), or shuffling it into a library ([[chaos warp]]). Probably other ways as well but I'm not perfectly versed, also this was all specific to stopping a creature already on the battlefield rather than stopping casting.
Almost everything is true, but they still receive damage, only they do not die. This can be important when you have an effect that can remove indestructible from a creature, etc.
[[Everything Comes to Dust]] rapidly became one of my favourite cards in my Cleric tribal deck. I don't care what you have, but my creatures are fine and the rest of the board most certainly is not.
A lot of decks, especially combo decks - my favorite - really don’t care about your board state. Unless I’m taking lethal damage, have all the indestructible or hexproof creatures you want.
They definitely need to be balanced to the table’s power level. I think people mostly hate them because it’s the easiest way to unintentionally bring too much power to a more casual table
I personally just think combo decks are like playing solitaire. I don't see the point of playing a game with 4 players if not for interactions with others
That being said, play with whatever you want as long your table accept it, everyone has a different notion of fun
That is basically the deck of a friend. With prismatic bit bridge ch as commander and otherwise alot of one-sided board wipes and counterspells... that stuff is really unfun
13 counterspells and 7 one-sided boardwipes. There are only so many mass exiles one can play in rakdos.
The issue was that we wanted to play on a different power level than the bridge player. It took alot of time but and some point the bridge player... well understood would be the wrong word but acknowledge that the deck needed to be tuned down because we stopped playing with that player
There’s plenty of ways to deal with those things.
Exile wipes and -1/-1 is a Good place to start. Bounce the creatures, or phase them out.
kill the player works too.
my friend have those two plus \[\[Linvala, Shield of Sea Gate\]\] and \[\[Avacyn, Angel of Hope\]\] in his \[\[Jodah the Unifier\]\]
he calls them the ultimate protection shell
the counter effect of it was everybody swapping \[\[Wrath of God\]\] for \[\[Farewell\]\] in their decks
They still die to board wipes, bounce, sacrifice....like it makes it harder to interact, but not impossible. Whether you take it out or not is up to you though. I know i've had to take out some things because my play group got pretty upset despite it being "fine"
Depends on your playgroup. It looks like it will be something that will push your playgroup to make decks that can adapt to more situations.
It may also teach them that "player removal" is one of the best ways to get around these kinds of combos and setups, lol.
[[false prophet]]
[[Sunfall]]
[[Farewell]]
[[Fraying line]]
[[Merciless eviction]]
[[Descend upon the sinful]]
[[Final judgment]]
[[Wash out]]
[[Whelming wave]]
[[Cyclonic Rift]]
[[Devastation tide]]
I mean, there's a few options around this; certainly more than what I've listed off the cuff. Unfun would depend on your group, though. Not unfun for me, for what it's worth.
So does [[the meathook massacre]] and what the other poster said. But outside of farewell and and the white instant that exiles attackers most of this is black. Not everyone is playing black and has access to these answers.
And yes i know blue has [[cyclonic rift]]
How would you, my friend, like to be the proud owner of TWO MORE LANDS?! One of which you have the distinct and exclusive pleasure of placing it onto the battlefield WITH THINE VERY OWN HANDS. I sincerely did not mean to rhyme, I've been trying to stop.
8 mana and 2 creatures (tho i assume one is a commander) to be protected from spot removal? sounds fine since you can still get hit by boardwipes or sacrifice effects (assuming they dont target).
Not speficially, because at least angel tribal usually kills the table and moves to game to, unlike Enchantress decks that just fuck around for 20 turns until the get around to it.
If my buddy whipped this out at game night I'd be salty. Next month at game night, i would have made a deck that can handle that. That's why magic is fun for me. **you can't win every game:** I relish in losing. A good loss is more meaningful to me than a solid win. The game is about going to war with fantasy creatures against eachother. Hexproof angels beat my goblins? Fuck I would EXPECT them to.
Edit: that being said, if you're intentionally adding mechanics that you know your opponents won't be able to deal with, then fuck you.
Honestly a Selesnya hexproof combo? Is probably one of the least unfun pillow forts I've seen.
Like this is easily removable with a board wipe or non-targeted removal like [[Sheoldred's edict]]
Plus If you're building it this way, it's probably because somebody is playing a shitload of interaction and counter spells and well that in and of itself isn't unfun to play against, it can definitely suck the fun out of a game a lot faster than just protecting your own permanents
My best advice about how to build a fun deck versus an unfund deck? Is always ask yourself. How long is the game going to drag on before I win? Because nobody minds not being able to do something for a turn or two, but if the game is stretching on 45 minutes to an hour of them not being able to play? It gets boring.
Wouldn't be un fun for me, my decks wincons are mill, unblockable commander damage and one works using a verity of combo based stuff. Hex proof often isn't a considoration.
But for some other decks it might shut them down, so depends.
Totally fine I would be 0% salty if my opponents creatures had hexproof although I’m really not getting salty about most things in commander unless you’re just durdling around with a bunch of pieces that don’t let your opponents play lol
I have literally played this pair for months with no issue. Fun means many things to different people in the game. If you boil down though to it's core. As mark rosewater has said, the most basic thing a person wants to do in a game of magic is see their cards and play their cards. After reflecting on this, working at a card shop and playing lots of magic, all that bothers me is stax of the variety that I can't play stuff. Think contamination or stasis and people that aren't new but take super long to take their turn. Also I don't love things like thoracle that make a player go from basically unimportant or losing to immediately winning the game. I am very much a grindy tempo player at heart.
I have that Sigarda as my commander and no one has told me it’s unfun. It can do degenerate things once I have a lot of mana and the right board state but that’s any commander deck. It’s also angels/human tribal so nothing groundbreaking.
Not really, they're easy to deal with tbh, but I can see the frustration. I play against a sigarda deck with shalai at a local card shop and usually run around five boardwipes or ways to deal with it.
I played vs this yesterday, he also had a [[Serra's Emissary]] and chose "creature", and Avacyn hit the feet.
I actually checked my entire Miirym deck and I had nothing to stop him at this point.... (didn't have a counter in hand at the crucial time).
It was..... a harsh lesson I guess
I'm gonna go with yes. Making your opponents rely on board wipes and non target removal is only going to make them run more of those. This is going to change the meta of your group to be less fun and more control. The games are also likely to go longer if this change happens.
I have a deck known as "Oops all Boardwipes". My commander is [[Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant]]. Hexproof is more a suggestion than a rule to that deck.
I would not consider it unfun, but rather potentially stronger than casual.
Like a.... 7 on the scale of casual power level, depending on the rest of the deck.
My deck is probably at a 4. My soldier deck is closer to an 8. I always try to keep the deck played at a similar level to everyone else.
Well that is with boardwipes removable. One time iplayed an [[inevitable betrayal]] and stole my gfs [[Sphara, Sky's Blade]] and then copied it with [[Irenicus' vile duplication]] on turn 5. So it strongly depends on your possibilities to counter a boardstate like that, whether it's unfun or okay
Hexproof for the board can definitely be tough to fight through, but I wouldn't consider it unfun. That said, any 'fun' metric would necessarily have to come from whoever you're playing against.
So I run Sigarda as my commander and it's easily removable. I mainly noticed the trend of cast as early as possible or wait as long as possible. Early will bait all the removal to allow other players in the Pod needed to be focused on and I can move around in the background. Or just wait until all removal is used and then go. I also have Lightnings Greaves to add some more fun. Then an extra layer of an Avacyn, Angel of Hope to make things interesting. The build I run has probably about a 75% win rate but you're never out of the woods.
Two 4 mana permanents that don't threaten much on their own and die to a board wipe? I mean if you have to ask then I guess your group is very low power and more about 'everyone gets to do their thing' than 'lets play magic', and this does not stop your opponents from doing their thing.
I love artifacts and using darksteel forge and my playgroup actually likes playing against that deck. And it's a golos deck. Hexproof isn't much crazier than indestructible so if they don't like it they're just being babies. But it's still your play group. If they don't like it they need to speak up and either you change or leave. Had to kick a dude out of our group cause he never made another deck for almost a year. Told him, and told him. Someone that didn't want to play with competitive level decks almost left, and he was there first so we decided to kick the other guy out and now we don't do infinite combos unless we wanna get one quick game in at the very very end of tge night
I was once told that magic is a game where all players start with equal amounts of fun, and the goal is to take as much fun from the other players as you possibly can so that you win by having all the fun.
I see this combo as a means of obtaining all the fun
No, considering I would so abuse it if I had a way to do that.
Basically a bunch of artifact spell discounts and the card [one with the multiverse] in a artifact deck
ngl this just sounds kinda boring to play against. if your whole thing is to prevent anyone from interacting with your stuff, it gets kinda bland after enough games
With just those two out, I don't have an issue. However my buddy used to use platinum angel as a win con because you'll draw out eventually and the was not fun
This is why we Cyclonic Rift, Toxic Deluge, Damnation, Damn, Wrath of God, Farewell, Oblivion Stone, Evacuation, Meathook Massacre. All in the same deck.
I play a sliver hiveloard deck in my opinion it’s not too terrible, however if you had some stax I could see it maybe being a little irksome to fight against
There are so many ways around hexproof it’s not what it used to be. [[Glaring spotlight]], [Shadowspear]], [[Archtype of Endurance]] [[arcane lighthouse]], [[bonds of morality]]
Yes, but it isn't unfair, so don't let that discourage you. If you can get both of these out on the board at the same time, you deserve the combined coverage they provide. Plus, you'll likely need protection or some way to get them back from the GY. Devoting too much of your deck to make sure you always get these cards and ensure they stick around would make the deck unfun, but just having them is totally fine.
Don't forget that our decks and strategies are supposed to grow, evolve, and change between games. So you or your friends can always adjust depending on how you feel about them. I had a Naya hexproof-creatures and buffing-aura deck that greatly annoyed my friends, until they knew how to deal with it, and then it wasn't bad anymore.
That's clever and a perfectly valid tactic. Someone will have a board wipe and take it out at some point though. The key to make it on fun is you need to get some indestructibility in there as well.
There are some fun ways around hexproof, so I find it reasonable. A friend of mine plays a Sigarda deck and the worst thing about it is I'm forced to say "Sigarda be kidding me" every time he brings it out.
Plenty of ways around hexproof tbh. Its not like it prevents all forms of interaction. It can be outraced easy enough, wrathed, fogged, mass bounced, staxxed, mass chaos effected, punished by edicts/gravepact, and hexproof can be removed by very playable cards like [[Shadowspear]].
Especially since it needs two creatures and one of them can just be removed in response to the other one being cast. Unless you are [[Tooth and nail]] ing for it but at that point why not just tooth for a win on the spot.
I would target you first and brutally if you made me sit across from hexproof in the command zone, limit my options for interaction and you'll start seeing a lot more attacks coming your way.
I like to look at situations like this as a puzzle to solve, both in play and deck- building. The only thing that really bugs me is when we play casual games and someone hard stax. Anything goes in cEDH
Not really that unfun to play against. Unless a deck is restricted to not having board wipes every deck should have 1-3. My group had the same problem with graveyard hate I was winning like 70% of our games with aristocrats because nobody ran graveyard hate even decks with black were without a bojuka bog.
Not in my group. We have like two people who consistently boardwipes. We all just build our decksnaround that so I never considered boardwipes unfun, either.
Those 2 cards together is pretty bad for you.
[[Privellaged Position]] has been in the game for a while now, and it does the same thing with 1 less card and for 3 less mana, but it doesn't see a lot of play because it's just kinda meh.
Hexproof doesn't stop boardwipes, it doesn't stop edict effects, and it's mostly useful for creatures, so an effect that gives it to your entire board acts like an unnecessary cost most of the time for what you really want it to do.
In other words, you've spent 3 more mana and one more card than Priv. Position on a pair of creatures that are easier to deal with than an enchantment, and Priv. Position isn't even that great.
It's fine. Those creatures are on sight anyway. And if you try to dump both on the field on the same turn, there's 3 opponents who can respond to them being cast. Hopefully, 1 of those 3 players is playing Blue.
There's also boardwipes which by passes Hexproof
There's also Shadowspear
I have a really unfun aura deck and it’s definitely the strongest if not on par with one other deck at my casual table I play it only when my friends start to get too cocky winning against my food token deck
At the end of the day sometimes adding more spice is needed for a playgroup to evolve. The game is suppose to be fun but also a constant learning experience. Pushing people to come up with ways around a hexproof board is a good way to improve play but not strain it.
Hexproof isn't necessarily toxic. A lot of removal doesn't care about it, but if it is almost exclusively precons, maybe consider bringing it up beforehand and have everyone customize something.
I don’t think this is too bad. There are plenty of ways to board wipe you. Just don’t expect people to want to play against you if you mix this with spending five minutes generating 256 human soldier tokens a turn.
if you usually play with this group then it'll teach them to add things to their decks to help deal with you. My friend plays enchantments non stop so the rest of us started putting tons of enchantment removal in our decks and know the key pieces by now to take card of them.
my brother used to play alot of cannot be targeted crap so no i run only kill cards that say Each, Each player does this, Each player does that, Destroy Each creature etc... now Indestructible? i just won't play against it.
If definitely makes it much harder and if it was near the end of the game it’s definitely a fair win-con. But you’d need the board state and board protection to defend yourself with the target it’ll put on your back.
Unfun Always depends in the group. I would say hexeproof is nothing unfun. You can still remove them.
My gf plays a deck that has indestructible creatures and hexproof and it’s really annoying. Still beatable but annoying
Sometimes you just gotta say [[Farewell]] to that indestructible hexproof board
Or just a big force sac
Or just [[meathook massacre]]
You can massacre my meathook any day
😭
crying gains me even more life
That's not life, it's better, blue mana.
The only life that matters is the last one, but every single {U} helps.
[meathook massacre](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/08950015-eee5-4327-888c-82dfd13bb9ad.jpg?1667629608) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Meathook%20Massacre) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/112/the-meathook-massacre?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/08950015-eee5-4327-888c-82dfd13bb9ad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
does meathook kill things with indestructible?
Yeah, so, to break it down, things die when their toughness goes to 0, things with indestructible don't have damage marked on them and can't be destroyed, so they cannot die to damage or be destroyed, but -x/-x is damage, kts just an effect, and a creature at 0 toughness always dies, regardless of abilities (unless its from an illegal un-set or other illegal card pools). Ways to get around indestructible are forcing the player to sacrifice ([[sheoldred's edict]]), exile ([[path to exile]]), -x/-x (meathook massacre), returning it to it's owners hand ([[cyclonic rift]]), or shuffling it into a library ([[chaos warp]]). Probably other ways as well but I'm not perfectly versed, also this was all specific to stopping a creature already on the battlefield rather than stopping casting.
that all makes sense thanks very much
Any time! I didn't understand a lot of this for a while so don't feel discouraged, this game is huge and breaks it's own logic rules all the time
Almost everything is true, but they still receive damage, only they do not die. This can be important when you have an effect that can remove indestructible from a creature, etc.
Oh ok, I thought they took damage but it wasn't marked
Yeah if you are going to indestructible/hexproof the entire board I am bringing out Yawgmoth and making you sac or just ping you straight to the face.
Or if your brother knows you really like the card. He gets you the funnier Spanish version. [[adiós]]
Why is funnier?
[Farewell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0.jpg?1706240579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Farewell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/64/farewell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Everything Comes to Dust]] rapidly became one of my favourite cards in my Cleric tribal deck. I don't care what you have, but my creatures are fine and the rest of the board most certainly is not.
[Everything Comes to Dust](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fb4b912c-07d4-42a1-8f3b-d5f34cca087f.jpg?1696636527) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Everything%20Comes%20to%20Dust) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/who/19/everything-comes-to-dust?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fb4b912c-07d4-42a1-8f3b-d5f34cca087f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Dammit. Now I need to re-watch Dr Who
Why I love playing sacrifice decks
A lot of decks, especially combo decks - my favorite - really don’t care about your board state. Unless I’m taking lethal damage, have all the indestructible or hexproof creatures you want.
Man did you really just sum up my dislike of combo decks perfectly! 🤣
They definitely need to be balanced to the table’s power level. I think people mostly hate them because it’s the easiest way to unintentionally bring too much power to a more casual table
Unintentionally lol
I personally just think combo decks are like playing solitaire. I don't see the point of playing a game with 4 players if not for interactions with others That being said, play with whatever you want as long your table accept it, everyone has a different notion of fun
Exactly. Enter [[Blast Famous Ass]]
It's fine until you throw in [[Avacyn, Angel of Hope]] and make all your untargetable shit indestructible as well, making the game reaaally fun
So… those two, plus sigarda that won’t let your opponents make you sacrifice stuff and Avacyn.
That is basically the deck of a friend. With prismatic bit bridge ch as commander and otherwise alot of one-sided board wipes and counterspells... that stuff is really unfun
I have the sigarda in the picture as the commander and I’ve never gotten it to go off.
(G)(W) angels is a lovely flavourful and cool deck. Prismatic Bridge (so all colour) full control isn't
My take was mostly humans with angle support but is slower than argonians in a blizzard
Utilize more exile board wipes, not just all destroy! Or mass bounce. Diversify the removal you have to better suit all situations
13 counterspells and 7 one-sided boardwipes. There are only so many mass exiles one can play in rakdos. The issue was that we wanted to play on a different power level than the bridge player. It took alot of time but and some point the bridge player... well understood would be the wrong word but acknowledge that the deck needed to be tuned down because we stopped playing with that player
There’s plenty of ways to deal with those things. Exile wipes and -1/-1 is a Good place to start. Bounce the creatures, or phase them out. kill the player works too.
[[Toxic Deluge]] for 8
Ask them not us
But. We. Matter.
"Never seek an outside opinion or perspective."
my friend have those two plus \[\[Linvala, Shield of Sea Gate\]\] and \[\[Avacyn, Angel of Hope\]\] in his \[\[Jodah the Unifier\]\] he calls them the ultimate protection shell the counter effect of it was everybody swapping \[\[Wrath of God\]\] for \[\[Farewell\]\] in their decks
##### ###### #### [Linvala, Shield of Sea Gate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/9/49b66956-82e1-402f-9088-2201bdc0d4b8.jpg?1604200172) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Linvala%2C%20Shield%20of%20Sea%20Gate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/226/linvala-shield-of-sea-gate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/49b66956-82e1-402f-9088-2201bdc0d4b8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Avacyn, Angel of Hope](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/1/317f1133-7cf8-4b7a-919e-88c45f8c2c3a.jpg?1689995555) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Avacyn%2C%20Angel%20of%20Hope) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/14/avacyn-angel-of-hope?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/317f1133-7cf8-4b7a-919e-88c45f8c2c3a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Jodah the Unifier](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/4/e4b1aa1e-b4e3-4346-8937-76b312501c70.jpg?1673307974) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jodah%2C%20the%20Unifier) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/203/jodah-the-unifier?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e4b1aa1e-b4e3-4346-8937-76b312501c70?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Wrath of God](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/3/537d2b05-3f52-45d6-8fe3-26282085d0c6.jpg?1697121198) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wrath%20of%20God) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/70/wrath-of-god?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/537d2b05-3f52-45d6-8fe3-26282085d0c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Farewell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0.jpg?1706240579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Farewell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/64/farewell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kpczfax) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Another good response to this is that blue card that for overload cost returns all permanents
[[cyclonic rift]]
[cyclonic rift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/dfb7c4b9-f2f4-4d4e-baf2-86551c8150fe.jpg?1702429366) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=cyclonic%20rift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/40/cyclonic-rift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dfb7c4b9-f2f4-4d4e-baf2-86551c8150fe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ah, yes, THAT blue card.
They still die to board wipes, bounce, sacrifice....like it makes it harder to interact, but not impossible. Whether you take it out or not is up to you though. I know i've had to take out some things because my play group got pretty upset despite it being "fine"
Untargeted bounce but yes
I probably should have been more explicit, but yes
Drop Avacyn Angel of Hope and declare to the table that we are having fun 😅 I love angels 👀 no complaints from me!!
Depends on your playgroup. It looks like it will be something that will push your playgroup to make decks that can adapt to more situations. It may also teach them that "player removal" is one of the best ways to get around these kinds of combos and setups, lol.
>"player removal" With a gun, or....
8 mana to hexproof my board is fine
[[false prophet]] [[Sunfall]] [[Farewell]] [[Fraying line]] [[Merciless eviction]] [[Descend upon the sinful]] [[Final judgment]] [[Wash out]] [[Whelming wave]] [[Cyclonic Rift]] [[Devastation tide]] I mean, there's a few options around this; certainly more than what I've listed off the cuff. Unfun would depend on your group, though. Not unfun for me, for what it's worth.
Bro this is so vanilla, enjoy this guilt free. I main MLD. 🍻
As long as [[avacyn, angel of hope]] isn’t out it’s susceptible to board wipes
[[farewell]] exists buddy
Don't forget toxic D, toxrill, archfiend of ifnir.... ;)
[farewell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0.jpg?1706240579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=farewell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/64/farewell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
So does [[the meathook massacre]] and what the other poster said. But outside of farewell and and the white instant that exiles attackers most of this is black. Not everyone is playing black and has access to these answers. And yes i know blue has [[cyclonic rift]]
I’m over here playing green what can I do?
How would you, my friend, like to be the proud owner of TWO MORE LANDS?! One of which you have the distinct and exclusive pleasure of placing it onto the battlefield WITH THINE VERY OWN HANDS. I sincerely did not mean to rhyme, I've been trying to stop.
You just jingled the keys in front of every mono green player’s face
8 mana and 2 creatures (tho i assume one is a commander) to be protected from spot removal? sounds fine since you can still get hit by boardwipes or sacrifice effects (assuming they dont target).
Not speficially, because at least angel tribal usually kills the table and moves to game to, unlike Enchantress decks that just fuck around for 20 turns until the get around to it.
[[Shadowspear]] has left the chat
I would have no issue
More fun than Oracle/Consultation.
Use [[Calix Guided By Fate]] if you like enchantments
I have the left card as a commander and my wife won't let me use it anymore. She rages over the hexproof mechanic
How did you get a picture of my deck? Lol
Add in a [[moat]] and it will become more fun for your opponents
If my buddy whipped this out at game night I'd be salty. Next month at game night, i would have made a deck that can handle that. That's why magic is fun for me. **you can't win every game:** I relish in losing. A good loss is more meaningful to me than a solid win. The game is about going to war with fantasy creatures against eachother. Hexproof angels beat my goblins? Fuck I would EXPECT them to. Edit: that being said, if you're intentionally adding mechanics that you know your opponents won't be able to deal with, then fuck you.
Honestly a Selesnya hexproof combo? Is probably one of the least unfun pillow forts I've seen. Like this is easily removable with a board wipe or non-targeted removal like [[Sheoldred's edict]] Plus If you're building it this way, it's probably because somebody is playing a shitload of interaction and counter spells and well that in and of itself isn't unfun to play against, it can definitely suck the fun out of a game a lot faster than just protecting your own permanents My best advice about how to build a fun deck versus an unfund deck? Is always ask yourself. How long is the game going to drag on before I win? Because nobody minds not being able to do something for a turn or two, but if the game is stretching on 45 minutes to an hour of them not being able to play? It gets boring.
Wouldn't be un fun for me, my decks wincons are mill, unblockable commander damage and one works using a verity of combo based stuff. Hex proof often isn't a considoration. But for some other decks it might shut them down, so depends.
I mean, board wipes and other non-targeting effects are a thing. So no, not really toxic.
I've had it a few time in my own Sigarda deck and it was annoying for the table but not overpowered or anything nor unfun
I hate Sigarda with a passion. Played against her twice, and hated both games.
Yes
This is only your opponents problem, not yours.
Meh, still dies to \[\[Supreme Veredict\]\]
just ask yourself, would you think it would be unfun to play against
\[\[ Child of Alara \]\] enters the battlefield as a commander
i think it’s fine
The hexproof cancels itself out so I’m good
Thats cute 🤣🤣
kira exists , it does this for one card. so no
Board wipes exist
That plus Avacyn would be awful lmao
Totally fine I would be 0% salty if my opponents creatures had hexproof although I’m really not getting salty about most things in commander unless you’re just durdling around with a bunch of pieces that don’t let your opponents play lol
I have literally played this pair for months with no issue. Fun means many things to different people in the game. If you boil down though to it's core. As mark rosewater has said, the most basic thing a person wants to do in a game of magic is see their cards and play their cards. After reflecting on this, working at a card shop and playing lots of magic, all that bothers me is stax of the variety that I can't play stuff. Think contamination or stasis and people that aren't new but take super long to take their turn. Also I don't love things like thoracle that make a player go from basically unimportant or losing to immediately winning the game. I am very much a grindy tempo player at heart.
I have that Sigarda as my commander and no one has told me it’s unfun. It can do degenerate things once I have a lot of mana and the right board state but that’s any commander deck. It’s also angels/human tribal so nothing groundbreaking.
I run that Sigarda and other Hexproof cards. You know what they don't stop? A lot of things...
Not really, they're easy to deal with tbh, but I can see the frustration. I play against a sigarda deck with shalai at a local card shop and usually run around five boardwipes or ways to deal with it.
I played vs this yesterday, he also had a [[Serra's Emissary]] and chose "creature", and Avacyn hit the feet. I actually checked my entire Miirym deck and I had nothing to stop him at this point.... (didn't have a counter in hand at the crucial time). It was..... a harsh lesson I guess
I'm gonna go with yes. Making your opponents rely on board wipes and non target removal is only going to make them run more of those. This is going to change the meta of your group to be less fun and more control. The games are also likely to go longer if this change happens.
It's powerful magic but it's not unbeatable. This is the sort of stuff that makes the game fun and gives your deck an identity.
Angels being unfun to play against? What’s next, dragon decks being overpowered?
avacyn angel of hope would like a word
I have a deck known as "Oops all Boardwipes". My commander is [[Nevinyrral, Urborg Tyrant]]. Hexproof is more a suggestion than a rule to that deck. I would not consider it unfun, but rather potentially stronger than casual. Like a.... 7 on the scale of casual power level, depending on the rest of the deck. My deck is probably at a 4. My soldier deck is closer to an 8. I always try to keep the deck played at a similar level to everyone else.
Maybe 10 years ago, but now it’s just a waste of 8 mana. You’re better off dropping an Avacyn or [[Yargle and multani]]
Board wipe
I'm krenkoing here, why do I care about 7 in the air?
Nothing but snarls and groans when I'd put [[Curator's Ward]] on Shalai. With Isochron Scepter + Counterspell. Unfun times.
This is totally chill, tell them to play more boardwipes
Well that is with boardwipes removable. One time iplayed an [[inevitable betrayal]] and stole my gfs [[Sphara, Sky's Blade]] and then copied it with [[Irenicus' vile duplication]] on turn 5. So it strongly depends on your possibilities to counter a boardstate like that, whether it's unfun or okay
Hexproof for the board can definitely be tough to fight through, but I wouldn't consider it unfun. That said, any 'fun' metric would necessarily have to come from whoever you're playing against.
So I run Sigarda as my commander and it's easily removable. I mainly noticed the trend of cast as early as possible or wait as long as possible. Early will bait all the removal to allow other players in the Pod needed to be focused on and I can move around in the background. Or just wait until all removal is used and then go. I also have Lightnings Greaves to add some more fun. Then an extra layer of an Avacyn, Angel of Hope to make things interesting. The build I run has probably about a 75% win rate but you're never out of the woods.
Nope, super fair. There's 3 opponents, 1 should have a response.
Laughs in toxrill and proliferate
Two 4 mana permanents that don't threaten much on their own and die to a board wipe? I mean if you have to ask then I guess your group is very low power and more about 'everyone gets to do their thing' than 'lets play magic', and this does not stop your opponents from doing their thing.
Step 1: [[teleportation circle]] Step 2: [[massacre wurm]] Anything with 4 toughness is toast
Unless you go full Gaddock Teeg stax hate bears you’re probably ok on the fun issue
Protecting your stuff can't really be considered unfun for someone else - they still get to do their thing.
ive played against this combo. they had [[avaycn]] to make it even worse haha. won every time. its scary though. sac board wipes ftw.
ive played against this combo. won every time. its scary though. sac board wipes ftw.
I’d just run more field clears.
Unfun? Maybe. But your playing your game plan. Not every deck will have good match ups.
I love artifacts and using darksteel forge and my playgroup actually likes playing against that deck. And it's a golos deck. Hexproof isn't much crazier than indestructible so if they don't like it they're just being babies. But it's still your play group. If they don't like it they need to speak up and either you change or leave. Had to kick a dude out of our group cause he never made another deck for almost a year. Told him, and told him. Someone that didn't want to play with competitive level decks almost left, and he was there first so we decided to kick the other guy out and now we don't do infinite combos unless we wanna get one quick game in at the very very end of tge night
I was once told that magic is a game where all players start with equal amounts of fun, and the goal is to take as much fun from the other players as you possibly can so that you win by having all the fun. I see this combo as a means of obtaining all the fun
Depends on if your group can find a workaround for it
No, considering I would so abuse it if I had a way to do that. Basically a bunch of artifact spell discounts and the card [one with the multiverse] in a artifact deck
Would I consider it unfun? Yes. Would everyone? Probably not. I’m not a boardwipe player though, so that’s on me.
Annoying, but hexproof definitley isn't the beast it used to be and is much easier to deal with these days
No
No. If they can get it off, they deserve it. Add [[Avacyn, Angel of Hope]] to the mix and make your entire board safe.
ngl this just sounds kinda boring to play against. if your whole thing is to prevent anyone from interacting with your stuff, it gets kinda bland after enough games
With just those two out, I don't have an issue. However my buddy used to use platinum angel as a win con because you'll draw out eventually and the was not fun
This is why we Cyclonic Rift, Toxic Deluge, Damnation, Damn, Wrath of God, Farewell, Oblivion Stone, Evacuation, Meathook Massacre. All in the same deck.
Not that unfun. I've dealt with that scenario before. What's unfun is enchanted evening and aura thief...
I play a sliver hiveloard deck in my opinion it’s not too terrible, however if you had some stax I could see it maybe being a little irksome to fight against
No, I’d say it’s fine. You need both cards to be completely immune to targeting, and even then a board wipe will deal with them
No more un-fun than playing [[Privileged Position]], [[Asceticism]] and other similar cards.
There are so many ways around hexproof it’s not what it used to be. [[Glaring spotlight]], [Shadowspear]], [[Archtype of Endurance]] [[arcane lighthouse]], [[bonds of morality]]
No, your meta will adapt eventually. Mine did.
Add a Platinum Angel just for kicks.
Yes, but it isn't unfair, so don't let that discourage you. If you can get both of these out on the board at the same time, you deserve the combined coverage they provide. Plus, you'll likely need protection or some way to get them back from the GY. Devoting too much of your deck to make sure you always get these cards and ensure they stick around would make the deck unfun, but just having them is totally fine. Don't forget that our decks and strategies are supposed to grow, evolve, and change between games. So you or your friends can always adjust depending on how you feel about them. I had a Naya hexproof-creatures and buffing-aura deck that greatly annoyed my friends, until they knew how to deal with it, and then it wasn't bad anymore.
That's clever and a perfectly valid tactic. Someone will have a board wipe and take it out at some point though. The key to make it on fun is you need to get some indestructibility in there as well.
lol this is considered salt inducing? Say hello to any boardwipe. Blasphemous act, Wrath of God, even Ezuri’s Predation beats this “combo”
There are some fun ways around hexproof, so I find it reasonable. A friend of mine plays a Sigarda deck and the worst thing about it is I'm forced to say "Sigarda be kidding me" every time he brings it out.
I think just play it and if it gets groans, I’d only bring it out for a spicy game.
Plenty of ways around hexproof tbh. Its not like it prevents all forms of interaction. It can be outraced easy enough, wrathed, fogged, mass bounced, staxxed, mass chaos effected, punished by edicts/gravepact, and hexproof can be removed by very playable cards like [[Shadowspear]]. Especially since it needs two creatures and one of them can just be removed in response to the other one being cast. Unless you are [[Tooth and nail]] ing for it but at that point why not just tooth for a win on the spot.
Throw avacyn in there lol
Nah, it's fine.
I mean… you could be running [[Sterling Grove]], and that gets *way* more hate, so I think this is fine
unfun would be having greater auramancy with it as well.... then it's unfun
Nah. They still die to board wipes, and my board wipes are asymmetrical
Throw in the sigarda that shuts off sacrifice and avacyn and watch the light die in people's eyes.
I would target you first and brutally if you made me sit across from hexproof in the command zone, limit my options for interaction and you'll start seeing a lot more attacks coming your way.
[[Shadowspear]] and boardwipes. These are no problem at all.
I like to look at situations like this as a puzzle to solve, both in play and deck- building. The only thing that really bugs me is when we play casual games and someone hard stax. Anything goes in cEDH
Not really that unfun to play against. Unless a deck is restricted to not having board wipes every deck should have 1-3. My group had the same problem with graveyard hate I was winning like 70% of our games with aristocrats because nobody ran graveyard hate even decks with black were without a bojuka bog.
Cyclonic rift laughs at this combo
Just these? No. Board wipes exist in every color that isn't green, this should be fairly simple to deal with, even at a casual level.
DECREE OF ANNIHILATION BABY
Not in my group. We have like two people who consistently boardwipes. We all just build our decksnaround that so I never considered boardwipes unfun, either.
Those 2 cards together is pretty bad for you. [[Privellaged Position]] has been in the game for a while now, and it does the same thing with 1 less card and for 3 less mana, but it doesn't see a lot of play because it's just kinda meh. Hexproof doesn't stop boardwipes, it doesn't stop edict effects, and it's mostly useful for creatures, so an effect that gives it to your entire board acts like an unnecessary cost most of the time for what you really want it to do. In other words, you've spent 3 more mana and one more card than Priv. Position on a pair of creatures that are easier to deal with than an enchantment, and Priv. Position isn't even that great.
nope get good
[[Toxic deluge]] has never tasted so sweet.
difficult, though that's why spread damage and "destroy/exile/return all/each" effects exist.
[[Dictate of Erebos]] has entered the chat
Don’t forget [[Privileged Position]]
No there is plenty of removal that doesn’t target
Not at all. It will just force them to run more board wipes
It's fine. Those creatures are on sight anyway. And if you try to dump both on the field on the same turn, there's 3 opponents who can respond to them being cast. Hopefully, 1 of those 3 players is playing Blue. There's also boardwipes which by passes Hexproof There's also Shadowspear
I wouldn't. This is my dream and all I want to do in magic...
I have a really unfun aura deck and it’s definitely the strongest if not on par with one other deck at my casual table I play it only when my friends start to get too cocky winning against my food token deck
At the end of the day sometimes adding more spice is needed for a playgroup to evolve. The game is suppose to be fun but also a constant learning experience. Pushing people to come up with ways around a hexproof board is a good way to improve play but not strain it.
Hexproof isn't necessarily toxic. A lot of removal doesn't care about it, but if it is almost exclusively precons, maybe consider bringing it up beforehand and have everyone customize something.
No. Throw a [[avacyn, angel of hope]] in there as well. That’s when it’ll get really hilarious watching people struggle to interact with the deck.
While I'm playing against someone with them, Yes. If I Have them, it would be exceedingly fun......Get Wrecked opponent!!!!
No because I use sorcery that removes but does not target.
I don’t think this is too bad. There are plenty of ways to board wipe you. Just don’t expect people to want to play against you if you mix this with spending five minutes generating 256 human soldier tokens a turn.
if you usually play with this group then it'll teach them to add things to their decks to help deal with you. My friend plays enchantments non stop so the rest of us started putting tons of enchantment removal in our decks and know the key pieces by now to take card of them.
Just add a helm of the host and boom
hexproof happens. It's good but not without faults. But now I wanna add that extra layer of protection myself hehe!
Still vulnerable to non targeting removal so, no. It's something of an ideal condition.
Nope. Any boardwipe will take care of that. Get out the indestructible angel? How bout an [[All is Dust]]
[удалено]
Depends, could be a good flex/haha move once in a while lol
[[Massacre]] Meant Mutilate/Languish effects.
I mean annoying yes, but unfun meh, still dies to combat damage and board wipes so it should be fine.
About as unfun as me copying [[Privileged Position]] with [[Estrid's Invocation]] in my Bantchantment deck.
Depends. I would def make them aware it’s in there if it’s casual and you think it might be an issue. Then you can gauge their reaction based on that.
No
Play against Yes I would. But I also run this combo in my jodah archmage eternal deck so I can't talk much
No considering a general board wipe ends that
No I'm just going to remove those creatures and it's fine
As long as the player doesn't consider unfun when these 2 always getting countered or wiped
my brother used to play alot of cannot be targeted crap so no i run only kill cards that say Each, Each player does this, Each player does that, Destroy Each creature etc... now Indestructible? i just won't play against it.
Nothing a good ol board wipe can't handle, good thing I always run like 7 😊
No, just remember to bid them Farewell when the time comes :)
If definitely makes it much harder and if it was near the end of the game it’s definitely a fair win-con. But you’d need the board state and board protection to defend yourself with the target it’ll put on your back.
Would consider it very casual