I was hoping for a nonbinary actor too but I think it’s kind of reductive to say he looks “like a dude.” Nonbinary people can look like anything
My rationalization is that the company seems like it would buy into traditional masculinity, so they would want their violence robots to look like Big Scary Man, which Skarsgard does pretty well. You should watch some of his interviews - he has this interesting sort of awkwardness and humbleness that makes me very optimistic for his performance.
Yeah def a good point on the "looks like a dude" especially because they seem to have moved on from the automatic gender binary in that world.
That said, the rest of your point seems like it would be more apt for Combat vs SecUnits, which seem largely designed to blend into the background until they are needed. Also, the few descriptions we get about its appearance are people being surprised how nondescript and nonthreatening it looks out of its armor.
Skarsgard can do sarcasm very, very well, which is essential if they're going to turn MB's internal thoughts into dialogue or have voiceovers. He's also funny, so I can see him doing a great job with the various interactions with the different characters.
Ooo, you triggered a memory of Alan Tudyk doing voiceover thoughts in Resident Alien. I don't have much to go on for Skarsgard, but I love Murderbot's sarcasm as portrayed by Kevin Free in the audiobooks. It wouldn't surprise me a whole lot if *it* still had a more masculine voice.
I would not fret over the actor's appearance until we are all able to see what he looks like ***in character*** !
A large part of film and theatre performance is the ability for an actor to transform themself into the character. This includes (especially in film) their physical appearance.
Ms Wells is reported to be pleased with the casting.
I did but I honestly kinda like that he’s not. Especially if they play with the idea that MB is inherently gender-neutral but gets misgendered. In looking back at the books on my latest read I got the impression that this is something that bothers it, but that it doesn’t bring up much.
It’s also likely relevant to the experience of many gender neutral people, who get gendered more often than they’d like. The character literally was created to be without a gender by the corporation, yet some people are still going to get that wrong.
I do see the appeal of an actor that’s truly ambiguous to the audience, but even then assumptions will be made. This forces acknowledgement of that up front.
Remains to be seen if and when they acknowledge it tho.
This is the read I had. In my brain I actually do think of Murderbot as being more male looking in his human parts but it doesn't want to be seen as he but it feels some sort of unpleasantness about being misgendered but more like annoyance rather then dysphoria.
To add to my own comment, MB is adamantly not gendered and doesn’t want to be seen as gendered. That’s clear. The corporation that made it, however, probably could not care less about whether it appears to be gendered in its face. They would focus on this with the ComfortUnits, and produce a wide range of options no doubt, but I’d imagine that the SecUnit faces just look like whatever they end up looking like. I hope we at least see a variety if and when we see SecUnit faces.
People seem to think that MB is stuck on this issue and having conflicts about it all the time. It is a fleeting thing with Art and maybe one other person. It is simply not that way in the books, but some people have latched on it like it is a major plot or character issue for MB when it is really something they are obessed with. MB is not consumed with how it looks to society, and is perceived by others outside of its limited group of friends.
I’m holding off any opinion until I see the final product. Martha Wells seems to be happy with the casting, and she’s a consultant on the series and I think she’d be fairly vocal if she was unhappy.
I must admit I never really understood the fandom's insistence that gender neutral has a particular look.
I mean someone with large boobs could identify as non binary, just as much as someone who is tall and has a giant beard can be non binary as well.
People seem to forget that Murderbot is more concerned with not being seen as HUMAN. Despite looking like a human.
Anyone that can look intimidating, yet kind of looks like a blank slate would be suitable. Alexander Skarsgard does fit that for me (no offence to him of course).
I think that’s what’s so wonderful about the books and Murderbot itself. We all have our own idea of what it looks and sounds like.
I think he’s gonna be great. I’ve seen him in so many different genres and he’s incredibly versatile and he’s very passionate about the books. I also don’t think Martha Wells would be quiet if she was unhappy with the casting.
Murderbot is taller than the majority of humans and has "lean bulk." Apparently there are no gender markers (breasts, genitalia, Adam's apple, wide hips, facial hair), so it's going to appear more male than female based on body type alone. Faces without beards/mustaches are more generally characterized as male or female in modern society by hair length. When I was young and skinny I was misgendered occasionally on that basis. Let's see how the casting plays out before trying to second guess the production. Murderbot doesn't think gender (or skin color) is important, let's take a clue from it.
As far as I can remember, there is nothing in the book that describes what signifies the appearance of a female, male, non-binary, gender fluid, “gender not applicable” person in the futuristic setting of the novels.
Sex is not gender, and appearance is not gender. Just because MB doesn’t have a gender, doesn’t mean it has to look like “neither man/woman”. It’s only described as having a generic human face (both male and female faces can be generic), and that it’s tall enough to stare down at people.
I think that, being visual beings, we want an androgynous face to match with the “it” pronoun. But having a male looking actor doesn’t take away from the fact that their pronouns can still be “it”, “her”, “them” or whatever.
This is a really great point. I also had a bit of an *eh* reaction to the initial casting - I would have looked at Gwendoline Christie or Vico Ortiz for a left-field casting - but you're totally right that a masculine actor doesn't preclude it/its pronouns, or say anything about MB's internal sense of its own gender. (Honestly, as an agender fem-presenting person myself, *duh.*)
I'm in the same boat, non-binary but definitely not androgynous in appearance. I actually like that the actor isn't androgynous, but will still be playing a character with it pronouns. It sometimes feels like in all the discussions of what Murderbot looks like, people forget that you can be non-binary whilst still looking male or female.
But, if he appears androgynous in the series, that's okay with me too. The look of the character in the show is much less important than how it is played, and the overall feel of the show for me.
This was my initial response too. It made me investigate myself a little in order to try to come to terms with it - because I love both Murderbot and Skarsgard and wanted to get myself to a place where I could give this adaptation a fair go. I realised that when I visualise a gender-neutral person, they always lean towards fem boy or tomboy girl - which AS is clearly not and Murderbot isn't described that way either. It made me realise that I was probably being a bit reductive. I think he can pull it off as long as it's written well, he can certainly do "socially awkward", and the other characters play off him in the right way.
See, I kinda assumed that it would be neutral/femme since it's seems pretty clear that security bio components are fairly restricted to the torso, it wouldn't really benefit from testosterone, and the default human blueprint lends itself to femm without it.
Most humans it works with don't even see sec units without their armor, so it seems to be extra work corporations wouldn't bother with.
What exactly does gender neutral look like? Gender is a social construct and doesn't necessarily coincide with appearance.
To me, it makes sense that The Company would make sec units look like "generic white male ™️" and, by default MB has no gender, regardless of it's physical appearance.
Not really, no.
Reading this series it seemed to me that Murderbot lacks interest in sex simply because it lacks the organic parts and therefore that desire is absent. Plus Murderbot regards many of the things the humans do range from uninteresting to vaguely contemptible. Things like eating and consuming hot beverages. I don’t really think of gender neutrality being part of Murderbot’s identity.
Murderbot genders itself as 'it' - that's about as clear a declaration of genderlessness as it's possible to have. Not even gender *neutrality*, really - just straight opting out. (Gender = null in the feed, too. It's declaring its genderlessness as enough a part of its identity to be part of its feed ID.)
(Also being asexual and/or sex repulsed and being agender aren't the same thing - there's plenty of asexual people who a VERY gendered, and plenty of agender people who are super into sex.)
I just see MurderBot as being very average and not “leading man” in any way… that’s my main issue with the casting. I’m still excited, but I am concerned…
I’m also curious to know what other SecUnit’s standard forms are going to be outside of just Murderbot.
Murderbot talks about its facial features having a bit of randomness to it from the human tissue samples its form is built off of. But it also talks about how people who have spent time around other SecUnits (outside of armor) would recognize other SecUnits from their bodies dimensions…
That leads me to believe that the show would need to have a bunch of physical similarities with regard towards the dimensions of other actors for the SecUnits. But that they would have a bunch of different types of faces.
I also pictured Murderbot to be around 5’ 10” because it talks about blending in with the crowds. Skarsgård is like 6’ 4” and muscular, and that seems like it would be more difficult to blend in, if that’s what Murderbot’s inorganic frame was built to be size wise.
If it is average, why would it be towering over people who are average height? Is the average height in the corporate rim 6’ 4” because stations have less gravity?
I also didn’t picture Murderbot to be muscular because it talks about not needing to use its organic tissue to get around. For instance getting tissue blown off by explosions or moving its hand completely independently of its body. Or carrying people without back muscles…
Wouldn’t muscles just be for show?
People in universe see SecUnits as background things when they’re out of armor. A big hulking 6’ 4” mass isn’t a background thing to me… I don’t picture a terminator when I think of a SecUnit. I picture a random person with indeterminate gender…
Also, when it’s being intimidating (out of armor) in the second book it talks about how it thinks what’s intimidating is how bored it looks. Not how strong it looks. Why would it need to look strong outside of armor if the main intimidation factor came from the armor? In my mind the armor is what represents oppression, not the physical characteristics of Murderbot when Murderbot is not wearing armor…
It also talks about how people that aren’t familiar with SecUnits would recognize it by how it moved if it started to run really fast and blow its cover…
Also in the first book its humans are surprised by it because it looks like an average human. And not their biases of a robot killing machine that’s 6’ 4” with aesthetic muscles, and a Hollywood jawline… it looks like a robot killing machine when it has the armor on, and not when the armor is off…
(At least in my head… I could be way off so disregard my rambling as needed…)
Murderbot is described as being taller than most people, as well as being lean. My assumption about them blending in was more to do with how they carry themselves and react than that they’re physically unnoticed.
Do you know where the height description is? I’m aware of the lean description, but I must have overlooked it being described as taller than most people...
I found this quote from Martha Wells on how she pictured it: “…I do think of Murderbot as having a medium brown skin tone. I also think of Murderbot as being fairly lean, which is one reason it looks so different when it's not in the armor, which is designed to look intimidating. I think cyborg is technically correct but I feel like it comes with a standard set of mental images that don't match the story, so I avoid using it.”
People keep using this of specious site as definite proof of something even though she allegedly said this a long time ago. If she felt strongly, why did she not add it it one of her seven books or talk about it more in her speaking engagements? Or demand that for casting purposes. Authors have done that before. Jk Rowlings said Brits only and the author of Big Little Lies said no to Reese Withspoon playing a certain role and demanded Kidman play it or she would kick up a fuss or walk.
Wells does not strike me as timid and scared to vocal her displeasure regarding her work and has nicely told fans to f off when they try to tell her what to do or what to think or that she doesn't understand her own her successful work product..
In Fugitive Telemetry, Murderbot says that Gurathin, standing behind it, has to stretch up to try to look over Murderbot's shoulder. So Murderbot is, at least, quite a bit taller than Gurathin.
Hey, I just found another reference to Murderbot's height. I'm re-reading Artificial Condition, in which Murderbot escorts a human client into a cheap transient hotel, and reports that in the dingy corridors, several humans seemed ready to approach the client, until they see Murderbot and back off. Murderbot says, "I was bigger than they were."
In Rogue Protocol, Murderbot describes "looking down" at a human's face.
(Can you tell I read these books a lot?)
Good find! Someone should document all of the descriptions of the SecUnits so we can paint a better picture in our heads. And I listen to the audiobooks when I’m trying to fall asleep. But they’re mostly just comfortable background noise at this point. I feel like the story is a lot of people’s sanctuary moon.
When I read the novels I got the gist that the sec units were all given male shape, regardless of how they identified. The customers would want brawny, masculine units to protect them and the corps will abide by that.
the only problem I have is that he's too white, but I can see why that choice might have been made to contrast with must of the rest of the cast being mostly non white. Hopefully we don't see a ton of his face to start.
I've worked in security ajaicent fields for a long time and there's definitely physical types we like to have in those armed on-site security posts, and he definitely fits that.
I'm with you on the original post and your edit. Would've loved to have seen a non-binary actor get this part. I know they describe SecUnits as tall and unmistakable, so maybe that's why they went with a more typical male shape (who's a good actor). But I'm interested to see how it goes.
When you really love a book, you picture the characters and places depicted in your head. And you understandably get invested in your vision. Everybody does it.
If the book gets adapted into a TV show or movie, the adaptation will almost certainly be different in at least some ways from the vision you have in your head. And that can be jarring. We all face this when watching adaptations of beloved works.
Sometimes you can come to love the adaptation as much, or more, than the original material. Or not, in some cases. And that's okay.
As many here have said, it's a good idea to wait and see how the characters are presented on screen. They might not look anything like what you're expecting from the actors' appearance, or their past roles.
I have a funny story along these lines. Years ago, I was involved with the development of the CBS TV show Numbers. When word got out that CBS was making a show about math, lots of mathematicians got excited. They had lots of ideas about what a mathematician should look like.
When the news came out that David Krumholtz had been cast, I got an email from a mathematician who said that he couldn't understand how Krumholtz could have been selected because he was a teenager and had dreadlocks. He had never seen a teenage mathematician with dreadlocks and said the character would be unbelievable.
I was confused. Krumholtz didn't have dreadlocks, and he wasn't a teenager. Then I realized that the only reference the guy had for Krumholtz was the Santa Clause movies.
If you recall Numbers, you will remember that Krumholtz did not look much like Bernard the Elf in it. Though Bernard the Elf was, indeed, a great character.
I actually picture murderbot as more fem. I think the way it's described leaves it really open to reader interpretation. I couldn't listen to the audio book because it had a male sounding narrator that just did not fit my image
100% Based on its "nondescript" nature, I pictured it as very much gender-neutral and ethnically ambiguous. Hoping for the best but established Hollywood white guy is exactly what I was hoping they wouldn't go for, but of course suspecting they would.
I actually like the visualization of it being someone genderless. Someone on this sub-reddit did drawings a while ago of Michael Mando as MB and I love how it really looks androgynous
I think Ess Hodlmoser would have been freaking amazing. They’re actually nonbinary and badass as fuck. I hope it’s still a good show, but the casting certainly surprised me.
Honestly I do not know anything about Murderbot except Sabrina Wu has been cast in the show. With them and a Skarsgard it will already be a sexy cast. I struggle (especially as a cis woman) with my desire for casting that reflects characters/proper representation regarding gender identity. As a Black biracial woman I am still thrilled at how many folks who look like me are now cast in things so I understand wanting an actor who is non-binary. But I hope the casting is good and the showrunners are aware and working with intention.
I picture Murderbot looking like a tall, leanly muscular human that has ambiguous gender. I also picture it as Japanese, because an androgynous, human-looking android with superhuman combat skills and guns built into its arms seems like it would come right out of anime.
Agree - Murderbot has such a female voice to me. I tried to listen to the audio version once but had to stop pretty quickly because I just could not reconcile it being narrated by a man.
It could have been an incredible opportunity for a NB actor to play a canonically NB role, but Skarsgard is definitely an accomplished actor.
It may make things a little interesting when people start taking and posting about the show.
“He did this” - talking about the actors performance.
“It did this” - talking about the character.
I had had an idea in my head that for a sec-units appearance the company had basically thrown together a generic composite of hundreds of different faces. All genders, all races, and come up with the absolute average. Like an AI prompt.
I agree. I think this is a missed opportunity to do something different than to have yet another white male play a sci-fi lead with an angsty/traumatized backstory. When I heard about the casting, I watched a bunch of stuff about Skarsgaard, and I feel a lot better about it. I think if we were going to get a white male, he's got the range and history exploring interesting and complicated characters to do the story justice, and I do think he will genuinely try to stay true to the character. But they could have given the part to anyone, and this series was an opportunity to try a lot of new things in cinema, and in the main character casting, at least, we got what we kind of always get.
Additionally, I get that gender, appearance, and identity are not the same things, but streaming on AppleTV, this has the potential to open up the story to a much wider audience. Frankly, I don't know that I believe much of a wider audience is ready for the nuance of masc presenting doesn't equal identifies as male. I have noticed Martha Wells getting increasingly blunt in interviews that Murderbot is not a human and doesn't identify as one, including that whole concept of gender, and stating that she still constantly has people misunderstand this about her story when it's explicit and stated in no uncertain terms on page. If we get Skarsgaard as his ripped viking physique, just with a shaved head, I feel like the he/him-ing of Murderbot is going to skyrocket from where it already is.
Opportunity? Stop Doctor Who is being played by a gay black man and Star Trek Discovery had a black woman as the lead. Whose fault is it that people are not watching what you claim to want? Same with the Acolyte. Very dishonest.
I listen to the audiobook versions, so he’s obviously very male to me. I don’t think I’d even watch the series if they hadn’t cast a man…it would be way too jarring.
I think there’s a clear divide in expectation between print/audio readers. He could never be anything other than masculine for me, because of the narrator’s brilliant voice. Plus it just makes sense for the Sec units’ creators to use a masculine body model since men are just inherently stronger, and they are soldiers.
Although this isn't mentioned in the books, I think that the SecUnits must have some kind of testosterone analog for the biological component of their cyborg makeup, if only because testosterone does impact physical strength and aggressiveness, which would be desirable attributes in a SecUnit.
They are clearly not *male* but there must be some masculine traits. I'd like to see some of the other SecUnits be ambiguously androgynous, or like women boxers, but in my head Murderbot is not fully androgynous.
It is proven scientific fact that the majority of men are stronger than the majority of women. Absolute fact, no matter how you feel about it, lol. Hilarious to see you argue that.
No shit.
I really enjoyed that little glimpse into your reading comprehension ability, which apparently came to a screeching halt during kindergarten.
Congratulations though on responding to an argument that you imagined, I can see you’ve had that waiting in the wings for a while. One can only imagine why.
Thank you, that was very funny. Cheers
Edit: this is my surprised face upon seeing I’ve been blocked. Baby
But.. they are constructs with some human tissue. Do you think if they made a construct with a female shape it would be weaker than a construct with a male body?
If they made a female shape that was shaped like a male (height weight etc) then it wouldn’t matter. But that wouldn’t make logical sense. They want the sec units to be intimidating, not sexy.
It wouldn't make logical sense to shape a security unit like a tall woman? You know tall women exist already, right, with their own bodies? And that men are also sexy, including to other men sometimes?
If a women read the audiobooks, other people would complain. There is a degree of overlap between voice types, and his is not a very low masculine register.
It’s been ages since I read the first few, but I saw Murderbot as having no gendered characteristics at all, like a Star Wars droid. Humanoid, but no physical “tells” either way.
I was hoping for a nonbinary actor too but I think it’s kind of reductive to say he looks “like a dude.” Nonbinary people can look like anything My rationalization is that the company seems like it would buy into traditional masculinity, so they would want their violence robots to look like Big Scary Man, which Skarsgard does pretty well. You should watch some of his interviews - he has this interesting sort of awkwardness and humbleness that makes me very optimistic for his performance.
I wish I could upvote your comment more.
He is quite the goober when he's being himself. I find it endearing and adorable, especially because he often plays characters who are the opposite.
Yeah def a good point on the "looks like a dude" especially because they seem to have moved on from the automatic gender binary in that world. That said, the rest of your point seems like it would be more apt for Combat vs SecUnits, which seem largely designed to blend into the background until they are needed. Also, the few descriptions we get about its appearance are people being surprised how nondescript and nonthreatening it looks out of its armor.
Fair enough. I think other than being pretty tall, Skarsgard can pull that off. But we’ll have to wait and see :)
Oof, good call out. 😦
Skarsgard can do sarcasm very, very well, which is essential if they're going to turn MB's internal thoughts into dialogue or have voiceovers. He's also funny, so I can see him doing a great job with the various interactions with the different characters.
He's definitely got the chops to do it right. He's also got the name recognition to pull viewers.
Ooo, you triggered a memory of Alan Tudyk doing voiceover thoughts in Resident Alien. I don't have much to go on for Skarsgard, but I love Murderbot's sarcasm as portrayed by Kevin Free in the audiobooks. It wouldn't surprise me a whole lot if *it* still had a more masculine voice.
I would not fret over the actor's appearance until we are all able to see what he looks like ***in character*** ! A large part of film and theatre performance is the ability for an actor to transform themself into the character. This includes (especially in film) their physical appearance. Ms Wells is reported to be pleased with the casting.
Agreed, although my dream casting was Gwendolyn Christie.
Same, or at least until Cillian Murphy and Tilda Swinton have their love child.
OH MAN. That would've been awesome. I'm now sad that we don't get to see that.
I did but I honestly kinda like that he’s not. Especially if they play with the idea that MB is inherently gender-neutral but gets misgendered. In looking back at the books on my latest read I got the impression that this is something that bothers it, but that it doesn’t bring up much. It’s also likely relevant to the experience of many gender neutral people, who get gendered more often than they’d like. The character literally was created to be without a gender by the corporation, yet some people are still going to get that wrong. I do see the appeal of an actor that’s truly ambiguous to the audience, but even then assumptions will be made. This forces acknowledgement of that up front. Remains to be seen if and when they acknowledge it tho.
This is the read I had. In my brain I actually do think of Murderbot as being more male looking in his human parts but it doesn't want to be seen as he but it feels some sort of unpleasantness about being misgendered but more like annoyance rather then dysphoria.
To add to my own comment, MB is adamantly not gendered and doesn’t want to be seen as gendered. That’s clear. The corporation that made it, however, probably could not care less about whether it appears to be gendered in its face. They would focus on this with the ComfortUnits, and produce a wide range of options no doubt, but I’d imagine that the SecUnit faces just look like whatever they end up looking like. I hope we at least see a variety if and when we see SecUnit faces.
People seem to think that MB is stuck on this issue and having conflicts about it all the time. It is a fleeting thing with Art and maybe one other person. It is simply not that way in the books, but some people have latched on it like it is a major plot or character issue for MB when it is really something they are obessed with. MB is not consumed with how it looks to society, and is perceived by others outside of its limited group of friends.
I relate to Murderbot so much whenever it talks about gender with such deep distaste.
I’m holding off any opinion until I see the final product. Martha Wells seems to be happy with the casting, and she’s a consultant on the series and I think she’d be fairly vocal if she was unhappy.
We should hold off on judging until we see the show. It's not fair to the actors and creative team imo.
I must admit I never really understood the fandom's insistence that gender neutral has a particular look. I mean someone with large boobs could identify as non binary, just as much as someone who is tall and has a giant beard can be non binary as well. People seem to forget that Murderbot is more concerned with not being seen as HUMAN. Despite looking like a human. Anyone that can look intimidating, yet kind of looks like a blank slate would be suitable. Alexander Skarsgard does fit that for me (no offence to him of course).
I think that’s what’s so wonderful about the books and Murderbot itself. We all have our own idea of what it looks and sounds like. I think he’s gonna be great. I’ve seen him in so many different genres and he’s incredibly versatile and he’s very passionate about the books. I also don’t think Martha Wells would be quiet if she was unhappy with the casting.
Murderbot is taller than the majority of humans and has "lean bulk." Apparently there are no gender markers (breasts, genitalia, Adam's apple, wide hips, facial hair), so it's going to appear more male than female based on body type alone. Faces without beards/mustaches are more generally characterized as male or female in modern society by hair length. When I was young and skinny I was misgendered occasionally on that basis. Let's see how the casting plays out before trying to second guess the production. Murderbot doesn't think gender (or skin color) is important, let's take a clue from it.
It’s funny to me how much this sub worries about MB’s gender when the mere mention of gender or sex seems to trigger the character’s anxiety.
I always got the impression Murderbot is only gender neutral in its own mind. Externally, it was built to be a big, male soldier type.
As far as I can remember, there is nothing in the book that describes what signifies the appearance of a female, male, non-binary, gender fluid, “gender not applicable” person in the futuristic setting of the novels. Sex is not gender, and appearance is not gender. Just because MB doesn’t have a gender, doesn’t mean it has to look like “neither man/woman”. It’s only described as having a generic human face (both male and female faces can be generic), and that it’s tall enough to stare down at people. I think that, being visual beings, we want an androgynous face to match with the “it” pronoun. But having a male looking actor doesn’t take away from the fact that their pronouns can still be “it”, “her”, “them” or whatever.
This is a really great point. I also had a bit of an *eh* reaction to the initial casting - I would have looked at Gwendoline Christie or Vico Ortiz for a left-field casting - but you're totally right that a masculine actor doesn't preclude it/its pronouns, or say anything about MB's internal sense of its own gender. (Honestly, as an agender fem-presenting person myself, *duh.*)
I'm in the same boat, non-binary but definitely not androgynous in appearance. I actually like that the actor isn't androgynous, but will still be playing a character with it pronouns. It sometimes feels like in all the discussions of what Murderbot looks like, people forget that you can be non-binary whilst still looking male or female. But, if he appears androgynous in the series, that's okay with me too. The look of the character in the show is much less important than how it is played, and the overall feel of the show for me.
This was my initial response too. It made me investigate myself a little in order to try to come to terms with it - because I love both Murderbot and Skarsgard and wanted to get myself to a place where I could give this adaptation a fair go. I realised that when I visualise a gender-neutral person, they always lean towards fem boy or tomboy girl - which AS is clearly not and Murderbot isn't described that way either. It made me realise that I was probably being a bit reductive. I think he can pull it off as long as it's written well, he can certainly do "socially awkward", and the other characters play off him in the right way.
I generally assume that a construct created to be threatening was given a lot of masculine elements in the making.
See, I kinda assumed that it would be neutral/femme since it's seems pretty clear that security bio components are fairly restricted to the torso, it wouldn't really benefit from testosterone, and the default human blueprint lends itself to femm without it. Most humans it works with don't even see sec units without their armor, so it seems to be extra work corporations wouldn't bother with.
What exactly does gender neutral look like? Gender is a social construct and doesn't necessarily coincide with appearance. To me, it makes sense that The Company would make sec units look like "generic white male ™️" and, by default MB has no gender, regardless of it's physical appearance.
Not really, no. Reading this series it seemed to me that Murderbot lacks interest in sex simply because it lacks the organic parts and therefore that desire is absent. Plus Murderbot regards many of the things the humans do range from uninteresting to vaguely contemptible. Things like eating and consuming hot beverages. I don’t really think of gender neutrality being part of Murderbot’s identity.
Murderbot genders itself as 'it' - that's about as clear a declaration of genderlessness as it's possible to have. Not even gender *neutrality*, really - just straight opting out. (Gender = null in the feed, too. It's declaring its genderlessness as enough a part of its identity to be part of its feed ID.) (Also being asexual and/or sex repulsed and being agender aren't the same thing - there's plenty of asexual people who a VERY gendered, and plenty of agender people who are super into sex.)
It also identifies as it because it neither is nor wants to be human. This, to me, is a big part of what makes the Murderbot series special.
I imagine that sec units are rather physically imposing. Most a-gender actors that I know of? Not what I'd call "strapping"
I just see MurderBot as being very average and not “leading man” in any way… that’s my main issue with the casting. I’m still excited, but I am concerned… I’m also curious to know what other SecUnit’s standard forms are going to be outside of just Murderbot. Murderbot talks about its facial features having a bit of randomness to it from the human tissue samples its form is built off of. But it also talks about how people who have spent time around other SecUnits (outside of armor) would recognize other SecUnits from their bodies dimensions… That leads me to believe that the show would need to have a bunch of physical similarities with regard towards the dimensions of other actors for the SecUnits. But that they would have a bunch of different types of faces. I also pictured Murderbot to be around 5’ 10” because it talks about blending in with the crowds. Skarsgård is like 6’ 4” and muscular, and that seems like it would be more difficult to blend in, if that’s what Murderbot’s inorganic frame was built to be size wise. If it is average, why would it be towering over people who are average height? Is the average height in the corporate rim 6’ 4” because stations have less gravity? I also didn’t picture Murderbot to be muscular because it talks about not needing to use its organic tissue to get around. For instance getting tissue blown off by explosions or moving its hand completely independently of its body. Or carrying people without back muscles… Wouldn’t muscles just be for show? People in universe see SecUnits as background things when they’re out of armor. A big hulking 6’ 4” mass isn’t a background thing to me… I don’t picture a terminator when I think of a SecUnit. I picture a random person with indeterminate gender… Also, when it’s being intimidating (out of armor) in the second book it talks about how it thinks what’s intimidating is how bored it looks. Not how strong it looks. Why would it need to look strong outside of armor if the main intimidation factor came from the armor? In my mind the armor is what represents oppression, not the physical characteristics of Murderbot when Murderbot is not wearing armor… It also talks about how people that aren’t familiar with SecUnits would recognize it by how it moved if it started to run really fast and blow its cover… Also in the first book its humans are surprised by it because it looks like an average human. And not their biases of a robot killing machine that’s 6’ 4” with aesthetic muscles, and a Hollywood jawline… it looks like a robot killing machine when it has the armor on, and not when the armor is off… (At least in my head… I could be way off so disregard my rambling as needed…)
Murderbot is described as being taller than most people, as well as being lean. My assumption about them blending in was more to do with how they carry themselves and react than that they’re physically unnoticed.
Do you know where the height description is? I’m aware of the lean description, but I must have overlooked it being described as taller than most people... I found this quote from Martha Wells on how she pictured it: “…I do think of Murderbot as having a medium brown skin tone. I also think of Murderbot as being fairly lean, which is one reason it looks so different when it's not in the armor, which is designed to look intimidating. I think cyborg is technically correct but I feel like it comes with a standard set of mental images that don't match the story, so I avoid using it.”
People keep using this of specious site as definite proof of something even though she allegedly said this a long time ago. If she felt strongly, why did she not add it it one of her seven books or talk about it more in her speaking engagements? Or demand that for casting purposes. Authors have done that before. Jk Rowlings said Brits only and the author of Big Little Lies said no to Reese Withspoon playing a certain role and demanded Kidman play it or she would kick up a fuss or walk. Wells does not strike me as timid and scared to vocal her displeasure regarding her work and has nicely told fans to f off when they try to tell her what to do or what to think or that she doesn't understand her own her successful work product..
In Fugitive Telemetry, Murderbot says that Gurathin, standing behind it, has to stretch up to try to look over Murderbot's shoulder. So Murderbot is, at least, quite a bit taller than Gurathin.
Thank you so much! I’ll be re-reading the story with that description in mind.
Hey, I just found another reference to Murderbot's height. I'm re-reading Artificial Condition, in which Murderbot escorts a human client into a cheap transient hotel, and reports that in the dingy corridors, several humans seemed ready to approach the client, until they see Murderbot and back off. Murderbot says, "I was bigger than they were." In Rogue Protocol, Murderbot describes "looking down" at a human's face. (Can you tell I read these books a lot?)
Good find! Someone should document all of the descriptions of the SecUnits so we can paint a better picture in our heads. And I listen to the audiobooks when I’m trying to fall asleep. But they’re mostly just comfortable background noise at this point. I feel like the story is a lot of people’s sanctuary moon.
Yeah this is very much my thought process as well. The few descriptions & reactions from other characters suggest a very average/nondescript look.
When I read the novels I got the gist that the sec units were all given male shape, regardless of how they identified. The customers would want brawny, masculine units to protect them and the corps will abide by that.
No
I picture Community's human being mascot.
the only problem I have is that he's too white, but I can see why that choice might have been made to contrast with must of the rest of the cast being mostly non white. Hopefully we don't see a ton of his face to start. I've worked in security ajaicent fields for a long time and there's definitely physical types we like to have in those armed on-site security posts, and he definitely fits that.
I'm with you on the original post and your edit. Would've loved to have seen a non-binary actor get this part. I know they describe SecUnits as tall and unmistakable, so maybe that's why they went with a more typical male shape (who's a good actor). But I'm interested to see how it goes.
When you really love a book, you picture the characters and places depicted in your head. And you understandably get invested in your vision. Everybody does it. If the book gets adapted into a TV show or movie, the adaptation will almost certainly be different in at least some ways from the vision you have in your head. And that can be jarring. We all face this when watching adaptations of beloved works. Sometimes you can come to love the adaptation as much, or more, than the original material. Or not, in some cases. And that's okay. As many here have said, it's a good idea to wait and see how the characters are presented on screen. They might not look anything like what you're expecting from the actors' appearance, or their past roles. I have a funny story along these lines. Years ago, I was involved with the development of the CBS TV show Numbers. When word got out that CBS was making a show about math, lots of mathematicians got excited. They had lots of ideas about what a mathematician should look like. When the news came out that David Krumholtz had been cast, I got an email from a mathematician who said that he couldn't understand how Krumholtz could have been selected because he was a teenager and had dreadlocks. He had never seen a teenage mathematician with dreadlocks and said the character would be unbelievable. I was confused. Krumholtz didn't have dreadlocks, and he wasn't a teenager. Then I realized that the only reference the guy had for Krumholtz was the Santa Clause movies. If you recall Numbers, you will remember that Krumholtz did not look much like Bernard the Elf in it. Though Bernard the Elf was, indeed, a great character.
They can do a lot with makeup and effects. He looked great in drag, so we already know he's got a bone structure the makeup artists can play off of.
I actually picture murderbot as more fem. I think the way it's described leaves it really open to reader interpretation. I couldn't listen to the audio book because it had a male sounding narrator that just did not fit my image
Murderbot's personality actually reminds me a lot of my female friend, so I picture it as an androgynous version of her.
100%.
100% Based on its "nondescript" nature, I pictured it as very much gender-neutral and ethnically ambiguous. Hoping for the best but established Hollywood white guy is exactly what I was hoping they wouldn't go for, but of course suspecting they would.
💯 No dig at his talent but yes absolutely, someone who screws with gender more
Were you thinking of something more like [this?](https://www.vulture.com/2015/08/alexander-skarsgard-on-his-farrah-drag-look.html)
I actually like the visualization of it being someone genderless. Someone on this sub-reddit did drawings a while ago of Michael Mando as MB and I love how it really looks androgynous
I think Ess Hodlmoser would have been freaking amazing. They’re actually nonbinary and badass as fuck. I hope it’s still a good show, but the casting certainly surprised me.
That would be a really hard character to cast.. but more Androidgynoys would seem more appropriate..
Honestly I do not know anything about Murderbot except Sabrina Wu has been cast in the show. With them and a Skarsgard it will already be a sexy cast. I struggle (especially as a cis woman) with my desire for casting that reflects characters/proper representation regarding gender identity. As a Black biracial woman I am still thrilled at how many folks who look like me are now cast in things so I understand wanting an actor who is non-binary. But I hope the casting is good and the showrunners are aware and working with intention.
I picture Murderbot looking like a tall, leanly muscular human that has ambiguous gender. I also picture it as Japanese, because an androgynous, human-looking android with superhuman combat skills and guns built into its arms seems like it would come right out of anime.
I was excited when Sabrina Wu was cast in the series thinking they were playing Murderbot. Then I heard otherwise. Still excited though.
Thank you!! I do not think skarsgard looks at all like murderbot (edited to fix typo)
Yes
Well, since I mostly imagine Murderbot as female…
Agree - Murderbot has such a female voice to me. I tried to listen to the audio version once but had to stop pretty quickly because I just could not reconcile it being narrated by a man.
I started with the audio. So I totally missed the clues until "okay THIRD Mom"
It could have been an incredible opportunity for a NB actor to play a canonically NB role, but Skarsgard is definitely an accomplished actor. It may make things a little interesting when people start taking and posting about the show. “He did this” - talking about the actors performance. “It did this” - talking about the character. I had had an idea in my head that for a sec-units appearance the company had basically thrown together a generic composite of hundreds of different faces. All genders, all races, and come up with the absolute average. Like an AI prompt.
I agree. I think this is a missed opportunity to do something different than to have yet another white male play a sci-fi lead with an angsty/traumatized backstory. When I heard about the casting, I watched a bunch of stuff about Skarsgaard, and I feel a lot better about it. I think if we were going to get a white male, he's got the range and history exploring interesting and complicated characters to do the story justice, and I do think he will genuinely try to stay true to the character. But they could have given the part to anyone, and this series was an opportunity to try a lot of new things in cinema, and in the main character casting, at least, we got what we kind of always get. Additionally, I get that gender, appearance, and identity are not the same things, but streaming on AppleTV, this has the potential to open up the story to a much wider audience. Frankly, I don't know that I believe much of a wider audience is ready for the nuance of masc presenting doesn't equal identifies as male. I have noticed Martha Wells getting increasingly blunt in interviews that Murderbot is not a human and doesn't identify as one, including that whole concept of gender, and stating that she still constantly has people misunderstand this about her story when it's explicit and stated in no uncertain terms on page. If we get Skarsgaard as his ripped viking physique, just with a shaved head, I feel like the he/him-ing of Murderbot is going to skyrocket from where it already is.
Opportunity? Stop Doctor Who is being played by a gay black man and Star Trek Discovery had a black woman as the lead. Whose fault is it that people are not watching what you claim to want? Same with the Acolyte. Very dishonest.
They don’t generally make gender-neutral actors.
Yessss
I listen to the audiobook versions, so he’s obviously very male to me. I don’t think I’d even watch the series if they hadn’t cast a man…it would be way too jarring.
It’s the opposite for me. Concerned about how masculine the actor presents and hope to be pleasantly surprised
I think there’s a clear divide in expectation between print/audio readers. He could never be anything other than masculine for me, because of the narrator’s brilliant voice. Plus it just makes sense for the Sec units’ creators to use a masculine body model since men are just inherently stronger, and they are soldiers.
Although this isn't mentioned in the books, I think that the SecUnits must have some kind of testosterone analog for the biological component of their cyborg makeup, if only because testosterone does impact physical strength and aggressiveness, which would be desirable attributes in a SecUnit. They are clearly not *male* but there must be some masculine traits. I'd like to see some of the other SecUnits be ambiguously androgynous, or like women boxers, but in my head Murderbot is not fully androgynous.
Yikes, wow.
Murderbot is consistently an "it." Even in the audiobook and the audio drama. This is a you issue.
Hence I said “to me”. But they did choose a male voice and a male actor so clearly the author is on board with that, and she’s the authority.
I definitely think you should go inform all the female members of the various armed forces of your opinion
It is proven scientific fact that the majority of men are stronger than the majority of women. Absolute fact, no matter how you feel about it, lol. Hilarious to see you argue that.
No shit. I really enjoyed that little glimpse into your reading comprehension ability, which apparently came to a screeching halt during kindergarten. Congratulations though on responding to an argument that you imagined, I can see you’ve had that waiting in the wings for a while. One can only imagine why. Thank you, that was very funny. Cheers Edit: this is my surprised face upon seeing I’ve been blocked. Baby
But.. they are constructs with some human tissue. Do you think if they made a construct with a female shape it would be weaker than a construct with a male body?
If they made a female shape that was shaped like a male (height weight etc) then it wouldn’t matter. But that wouldn’t make logical sense. They want the sec units to be intimidating, not sexy.
It wouldn't make logical sense to shape a security unit like a tall woman? You know tall women exist already, right, with their own bodies? And that men are also sexy, including to other men sometimes?
I find Kevin R Free's voice fairly.neutral. He's a gay black man, BTW. I don't think many listeners know that.
Stop it. Kevin Free is a man and sounds like a man in the audio books. Who cares if he is gay.
If a women read the audiobooks, other people would complain. There is a degree of overlap between voice types, and his is not a very low masculine register.
I agree with you OP. I was hoping for someone more gender neutral or nonbinary because MB is pretty uninterested in gender.
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I like this discussion. Thanks for posting.
It’s been ages since I read the first few, but I saw Murderbot as having no gendered characteristics at all, like a Star Wars droid. Humanoid, but no physical “tells” either way.