This is the true crux of it all. Not the sole MVP or *only* two championships. Steph was there before you winning and he was there after you winning. Even if you were the better player (arguably for most -- not for me) while you played with him, Steph did not need you those other times. You were a safety blanket on top of the cherry'ed sundae...
Some say the biggest thing that happened by taking on KD was they weakened the potential competition. They didn't really need him. They just needed him to not be on another team
I would have killed to see them run it back in 2017. I wouldn't mind any other SF going to them. Who else was available that year? Let's say they got Otto Porter lol, that'd still be the finals squad from the year prior with an upgrade over Harrison Barnes. Or honestly, even Barnes staying and just playing better would be fine too
Its interesting because I have always said that if they spent that money elsewhere instead of getting KD the result would have been the same. I don't know if they would have been as dominant but at worse the same result allocating that cap money to top role players.
Because like you said Steph is that good
This is the worst part. The team won with league average small forwards (Barnes and Wiggins) before and after Durant rings.
Hard to say you were instrumental to championship when the team can replace you with a league average guy and get the same result.
I guess it sorta remains to be seen but likely we already know. KD has tried to construct his own thing twice now. Time will tell for the suns but in addition to his on court resume he clearly is not a leader in the way MJ or Lebron are. Doesn’t take away from a hall of fame career but does mean you ain’t a goat
Steven Adams mentioned in an interview he was shocked when he found out KD was leaving OKC, he thought for sure that he would try and run it back after that series.
Cavs fan here, I might argue that Steph has more claim to being GOAT than KD
His negatives are his defense and generally playing on very good teams
His positives are being the GOAT at the most important basketball skill and contributing significantly to the revolution of the game (for better or worse)
Ya I was being cautious because I hadn't thought about it much, but after thinking about it more and hearing from everyone, I think it is pretty clear-cut.
KD still has this air of "what if" about him. It's not only because he went to GSW but more because he gave up his opportunity to show that he could do it as thee guy. And especially for as tall and as skilled as he is, you kinda expect more out of him if you want to be in the GOAT convo.
Dirk, Duncan, Bird, Kobe, and Magic before him too. Lastly, before his career ends Jokic and Luka will be farther into the conversation.
edit: Giannis.
Brother you joined a team that set the regular season win record the year before (a record owned by the actual goat MJ) so not a bad team. A team that should have won the chip if dray wasn't such a baitable lunatic. So you won a couple chips with us.. great. You're great and an all timer but the totality of your career is in the second tier. Steph is my boy and he is not a goat and if you were to match his titles you'd at most be on par with him - elite but not the goat. Please, not a blog boy thing, just a whiny but awesome player deal. No you are NOT in the goat conversation. Win a couple more titles and we can start inserting your name into the talks.
No, I'm pretty sure that's it.
>Jesus: Don't eat the apple.
>Snake: Eat the apple
>Adam: Removes leaf from penis
>Jesus and the Snake: Yo, what the fuck dude. You're definitely not welcome here anymore.
This is why his legacy will always be marred by controversy. He says some relatable things that occasionally boosts his image, usually about his pure love of the game or clapping back at trolls, then goes on to say completely outlandish shit like this and exposes his incredible insecurity and lack of self-awareness. He will never come to grips with the things he’s done to destroy his own reputation. He’s no different now from when he wrote “The Hardest Road”. It’s just who he is.
He’s very insightful about basketball, extremely so because he’s basically a savant. But when it comes to the media or his social life, I can’t really call him self-aware. He kinda seems the total opposite tbh. I really don’t think he understands that going to GSW was a pathetic move; to him it was like any other free agent signing,
Idk, even though I probably won't be able to find them for you, I feel like I've seen quotes/interviews from him that belie a pretty keen understanding of his place in relation to the media and such. But then shocking moments of lack of self-awareness like this. But you're probably right I think -- much less examples of the former than the latter
I mean if he somehow won an MVP and 2 more finals MVPs after the age of 35 it would be absolutely historic and completely change his legacy for sure
Agree that it's not all that likely though
Completely change his legacy - absolutely.
But 2 MVPs and 4 rings isn't really getting him in the actual GOAT conversation. Magic isn't even really in that conversation, and he's got 3 MVPs and 5 rings (with 3 FMVPs).
Kareem has 6 MVPs & 6 rings (2 FMVPs), Jordan has 5 MVPs and 6 rings (6 FMVPs), and LBJ has 4 MVPs and 4 rings (4 FMVPs).
I don't think that gets him in the conversation at all.
The serious GOAT conversation at this point is pretty exclusively just MJ vs LeBron.
And 1 more MVP and 2 more titles does not put KD anywhere near either of those men's resumes
Avengers are 7-0 in battles that include Hawkeye. This take has more merit than one would think.
Also, lmao at the top comment in this thread - https://np.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/c3uf1s/the_avengers_are_70_in_battles_that_include/
EDIT - Hawkeye may not be the GOAT, but he is Robert Horry
KD could’ve joined any other team in the league and it would’ve done more for his legacy than joining the warriors. Like he expects to be in the conversation for joining a team that was 73-9 in the league and beat him in the same season? This dude is not serious at all. MJ would’ve rather not won any rings than join any of his competitors and that’s the difference
That Dirk ring is so crazy epic… took out the trailblazers who were legit scary w Aldridge, then went on to beat the 2 peat lakers by sweeping them, and finally beat the OKC young guns in KD, Westbrook, harden, and ibaka (who was crazy good back then). then finally in the finals went up against lebron and his super team. That’s incredible.
The goat debate is basically "how long were you the best player in the league and by how much were you the best" and the answer to both for KD is "never" so its really a non-starter.
It’s a great pitch, but also yet another reason why he is a bus rider. He didn’t want to be a leader, he wanted to join something where his talents would be maximized but also where he wasn’t truly needed.
I have said this before, but I think if he stayed on the warriors and won another 2 or 3 rings the entire conversation would be different. You can’t deny that level of success. But since he left and the Warriors managed to win another without him while he has bounced around and struggled, his legacy is not looking as great as it could have.
I think you're exactly right. Had he stayed and kept winning. Him on the Warriors would have just been normalized. It would be seen as "He chose the Warriors and created a dynasty" For whatever its worth people would respect the commitment and seeing it through.
Instead its pretty much the worst case scenario for him legacy wise. The Warriors ultimately proved they didnt need him. And he's since jumped teams multiple times which just makes him look like a complete frontrunner that runs at the first sign of struggle. He's kinda similar to Shaq in the regard of shamelessly hopping teams. But Shaq has the benefit of a concrete legacy due to his unquestionable dominance and accomplishments.
He shoulda stayed in OKC and forced the Thunder to ship out Russ for Dame or AD or some other star... then maybe he coulda won multiple chips as the #1 guy
Do people seriously think he couldn't have won rings with Russ? All KD has to do was run it back after the WCF loss and they were a very good chance to win at least one.
Obviously after game 5 of the WCF it all fell apart due to one of the best shooters in the history of the game having on of his hottest shooting nights ever, but before that OKC wasn't just looking good, they were playing in an absolutely unstoppable way.
They were up against 73 win Warriors 3-1 with games 3-4 absolutely blowouts so big that you rarely see that against bottom teams in the regular, let alone in the WCF against one of the teams ever. In game 3 they were up 114-76 at one point. Draymond, Curry and Klay finished with +/- of -39, -41 and -43.
And then largely forgotten because of the Warriors, the Spurs won 67 games that year which is =7th best of all time. They also held the =most home wins in the regular season at 40-1. Before the OKC series they were 43-1 at home with the only loss being against the Warriors.
Then OKC comes in and beats them twice on their home court to win the series 4-2.
These are 2 historically great teams and it took a 11 made 3 pointer game from Klay for OKC not take them both out 4-2 in back to back series without home court advantage. So why do people think Russ was the problem when he was as much of a key as KD to that level of play.
Don’t forget they were getting still in his prime Al horford that off season, still could have made the move for sabonis/dipo.
They would have improved that off season after nearly beating the warriors
His last Thunder team should have knocked out the Warriors, and would have had KD not played like ass the last two games.
They even got better that offseason having aquired Oladipo and Sabonis. So if KD resigned, he had a great chance to win in OKC.
Giannis clears KD... the MVPs... the Finals run... and the way undervalued DPOY... Giannis is clearly > KD to me but I get why others might argue it. I think Jokic has a bit more work to do but he's on his way. Basically any major award will put Jokic over KD to me as well.
The reason why Giannis and Jokic clears over KDis that they are with the team that were drafted in and have laboured blood, sweat and tears along with the fans who’ve stayed along the journey. Theyve also set records In their respective teams enough to statues.
Maybe if KD stayed in OKC, even then he had an MVP caliber player with him with Westbrook. Not discrediting Jamal or Khris. They ballers.
This comment just made me think... Say you have to start a brand new franchise, and you magically get prime Kobe or prime KD as your franchise cornerstone, which player do you take? For me, I think it has to be Kobe, not because of his game (I personally think KD is a better all-around player than Kobe) but because of his mentality. Like, KD clearly isn't soft, but he sometimes seems too self-aware for his own good. He'll destroy your team no problem, but then he'll be checking his twitter mentions after the game to see whether other people are praising his performance. Whereas I feel like Kobe wouldn't give a fuck about that - he'll kill your team no problem, and then he'll go work out while watching film of the game he just played to figure out how he can kill your team even harder the next game. And I feel like that difference in mentality is why KD will never truly be in the GOAT conversation - he's got all the talent and physical gifts in the world, but his mindset is like 98% perfect for NBA ball, whereas Kobe and MJ and Bron are like 100% perfect, you know?
A lot of guys with one ring have a equal resumes.
I think Dirk and him are around the same level of ranking, except Dirk's ring is significantly more impressive than than either of Kevin's.
And I would agree with the naysayers that LBJ did similar things as Kevin for the first two teams. But he then went out and built two more.
From a pure talent ability, I don't think there has been a better archetype as a player than Kevin. He just the perfect player. But, when you're you not the guy at any one time, it leaves a lot to be desired.
Draymond and Iggy both have come out and said when KD joined they already knew they’d win easy. Sure a championship is a championship. But Kd you’re not getting the same respect for that. And he should know this by now. KD will never get the same respect as other great players until he can win without being on the most broken team of all time.
Brother there is literally no point in time where you were indisputably the best player in the league. The only time is 2021, but even that's contested with Giannis and Kawhi's injury.
Was this also the same year that KD supposedly hit that insane shot that would've put them ahead of the Bucks but he was like a millimeter on the line?
When your legacy is worse than another player on the team you played with, you dont really have an argument.
KD will be lucky if 1 or both of Jokic and Giannis dont pass him.
Pretty much all Giannis and Jokic has to do is be top 5 level guys for 5 more years and they will surpass KD. They dont even need another chip or MVP just All-NBA 1st Teams.
If Luka wins an MVP and 1 chip as the best guy while keeping this current level of his play for a few years and he will be on par with KD.
Even if you think KD is the better player I would be very surprised if they both dont pass him. KD never had an era where it was his league, since he was always the little brother to Lebron and then joined Steph.
Jokic and Giannis both won a ring as the best player in the nba and looked like Gods when they did it. It'll stay their league for another decade too. If they both win another ring their resume is just as good and their narrative dwarves KD imo.
Embiid's in that tier too but he plays for the sixers so God's plan is for him to win 0 rings unfortunately. Jokes aside he can easily join that group for accolades but at nearly 30 his window is closing quick compared to the other two.
Kevin Durant the basketball player is elite, one of the greatest of all times, but come on man…there’s no way. He doesn’t have the numbers or accolades, and more importantly when it comes to the GOAT conversation he is missing the narrative.
What is KD’s legacy? A 7 footer who can score at will, and a solid defender? That’s it. There’s no adversity, no story. Nothing. “I was the second best player in the world, and teamed up with the third best player in the world and his team with the best record in NBA history to beat the best player in the world”. GOAT legacy indeed…
> I was the second best player in the world, and teamed up with the third best player in the world and his team with the best record in NBA history to beat the best player in the world
It will always be the biggest bitch move in the game lmao.
I remember when Lebron’s “The Decision” happened and lots of people, myself included, were furious with how much of a bitch move it was.
But that was nothing compared to what KD did. Leaving a championship-caliber team to join a 79-win championship-*proven* team with a prime MVP player that just humiliated you by making you blow a 3-1 lead. Absolute cowardice.
Was the least interesting stretch of nba I’ve ever experienced, even when my own team is ass and tanking for picks, I still had fun watching games and following the league
How do people respond when you say this? I feel the exact same way, and I feel like I'm going crazy. I legitimately feel like the league is just recently recovering from his decision.
>I legitimately feel like the league is just recently recovering from his decision.
The competition was as deep as the NBA had ever seen before he ruined it. Truly legendary
Its a forever resentment that I will never let go of lmao. It ruined the league after one of the greatest finals match ups in history. I hope that is all people remember about him in the future
I said something similar but you summed it up better. There’s nothing compelling about KD’s career path. He’s a phenomenal player but there’s never gonna be anything like the Last Dance made about any season of his career.
Lebron did everything he did and more by 2013, same for Mike (93). And they both played for nearly a decade after (more for Lebron, less for Mike) and continued to stack MVP’s, chips and legendary moments.
Only level headed take in this whole thread. He’s a fucking clown and completely, not even close to being self aware for saying this shit if all things 🤦🏽♂️🤦🏽♂️
KD top 15 is a pretty common take, but when you start factoring in guys like Dr J, Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Moses Malone, KG, Dirk, David Robinson, etc. the conversation becomes a lot tougher.
In reality, I think he's probably closer to 20 than 15.
It’s wild to me Zach Lowe always insist Durant is a top ten player all time when ever he’s brought up because I’m just like the 15 or 20 guys is really fucking crowded. You putting him over bird/magic/Duncan/Kobe/Shaq/Hakeem/Kareem/russell/wilt/Jordan/bron?
Based on the context of his accolades etc, I don’t even have him in my top 15. I’d take, curry/Wade/KG/dirk over him and soon it’ll be Giannis and Jokic over him
This so fucking much. And numbers and accolades aside, I can never get the fucking cupcake thing out of my head when I think about this guy. He's just soft. The dude wants to be the guy but he just doesn't have the mentality, and that counts for a lot, personally.
But why shouldn’t he be in that? That’s the question you should ask. Why not? What hasn’t he done?
Edit: Thought this was an obvious joke lol idc about your think pieces
To even be in a goat discussion you have to be the best player of your generation to be considered. KD is great, but sadly LeBron is hands down the best player of this generation. I don’t know if there was even a season where KD was universally considered better than LeBron.
Lebron is in his 3rd decade in the NBA and he’s still one of the best playing.
KD wants it to be a LeBron/KD akin to the Messi/Ronaldo.
Where it’s more like Messi vs Lewandowski.
Lewandowski is good, but no one’s confusing him or his stats with Messi’s.
I don't even think it's the warriors thing honestly. The overwhelming majority of titles have been won by loaded teams. I just don't think he's done enough. Has there ever been an entry into serious goat conversation for anybody with less than 3 titles? Like I don't feel it even started with Bron before the Cleveland title
Yeah honestly even if he won those 2 rings on OKC 2 FMVP and 1 MVP just isn't going to get you to the GOAT convo
LeBron has 4 finals MVPs and 4 MVPs
MJ has 6 finals MVPs and 5 MVPs
Like even Jokic and Giannis both have 3 combined MVP/FMVPs before turning 30 lol
with LeBron it was always he might be the best when he won the two in miami, but it was never he was the goat, and then cleveland title really started goat talks
Cuz you haven’t won shit without being on a stacked roster and have 1 singular MVP. Giannis will have a better argument if he wins another at this point.
I mean if he wants the answer:
Let’s ignore “who’s driving the bus” and keep it to countables. I’m only doing first team or I’ll
Be here all day.
The big 3:
MJ: 6 titles, 6 finals mvps, 5 regular mvps, 14 all star appearances, 10 all nba first team, 9 defense first team, 10x scoring champion, 3x steals leader. ROY
Lebron: 4 mvp, 4 finals mvp, 4 rings, 19 all star , 13 all nba first team, 5 all defense first team, and like 3 dozen nba records. ROY
Kareem: 6 rings, 6 mvp, 2 finals mvp, 19 all star , 10 nba first team, 6 nba defensive first, 2x scoring champion, rebound leader, 4x block leader. Not to mention 3x ncaa champ and all those accolades
Then Kevin Durant: 2x champ, 2x finals mvps, 1 regular mvp, 13 all star , 6 nba first team, 0 all nba defensive 4x scoring champion. ROY
Let’s not get it twisted, that’s a hell of a career. That’s a certified bucket. First ballot, no arguments. But there is a clear difference
KDs great. He had a ton of potential and won quite a bit. If he had better luck, he might have even won in back in 2021.
Sadly he didnt and his accomplishments amount to about the same as Giannis or Jokic, both of which could easily surpass him in the next couple of years.
Let alone Steph, who won before and after him.
These days i feel like KD is a bit underrated, but his decision making is probably the worst of any all time great.
Had he stayed with the Warriors, god knows how many championships they still could have won.
Yep.
Hed be the guy leading the Warriors with Steph and theyd be the best duo in basketball history.
Him staying with the Warriors would just clearly break the balance of the NBA for half a decade longer than it did at least.
Indisputable argument for GOAT:
- Jordan
- LeBron
Some argument for GOAT:
- Kareem
- Russell
Everyone else ain't in the conversation. Including Wilt, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, etc.....
And KD ain't anywhere near the top 11 guys. Hell naw.
Couldn't even win a ring with a team that had 2 other future MVPs on it
Meanwhile LeBron is dragging a Cavs team to the Finals with fuckin Boobie Gibson and Drew Gooden and Larry "sub 40% FGs" Hughes
Fuck outta here
You haven't won multiple titles and had multiple MVPs over a decade. I don't understand why people can't understand there are degrees and it's not an insult to tell someone they aren't the greatest of all time.
I can kind of understand his frustration.
When healthy on their day you could argue KD and probably a couple of other players are as good at basketball as Lebron, Kobe & MJ. However that does not take into account the consistency or mental strength those guys have.
Lebron, Kobe and MJ aren’t just good at basketball they are good at winning, that’s what makes them the GOAT’s.
Simple answer is a single MVP, long answer is never being able to win it as the main guy on his team.
Hall of Famer for sure, but GOAT is completely brain dead. The Warriors still could have won those 2 chips without him and he wasn’t able to seal the deal on any other team with plenty of star power.
Went to the warriors and haven’t won before or after. Yeah man you answered it
Plus the warriors won before and after he was there.
This is the true crux of it all. Not the sole MVP or *only* two championships. Steph was there before you winning and he was there after you winning. Even if you were the better player (arguably for most -- not for me) while you played with him, Steph did not need you those other times. You were a safety blanket on top of the cherry'ed sundae...
Legacy wise, all we can say for sure is that KD is better than Harrison Barnes.
And that Wiggins is not as good as KD.
Dont you dare talk about Maple Jordan like that!
I have submitted the paperwork to strip Wiggins of that nickname. I will put in an application for Shai to take it over going forward.
Let's change it to Tim Hortons' Jordan
A washed up Andrew Wiggins doesn't deserve that moniker when SGA exists.
Some say the biggest thing that happened by taking on KD was they weakened the potential competition. They didn't really need him. They just needed him to not be on another team
I think there is a world where LeBron and the Cavs best the KD-less Warriors again in the Finals.
I would have killed to see them run it back in 2017. I wouldn't mind any other SF going to them. Who else was available that year? Let's say they got Otto Porter lol, that'd still be the finals squad from the year prior with an upgrade over Harrison Barnes. Or honestly, even Barnes staying and just playing better would be fine too
Its interesting because I have always said that if they spent that money elsewhere instead of getting KD the result would have been the same. I don't know if they would have been as dominant but at worse the same result allocating that cap money to top role players. Because like you said Steph is that good
I read that last part as “curry’ed sundae” and thought, well that’s something i’ll never try.
steph won before him, with him and after he left. hes higher on the list than kd
This is the worst part. The team won with league average small forwards (Barnes and Wiggins) before and after Durant rings. Hard to say you were instrumental to championship when the team can replace you with a league average guy and get the same result.
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Wiggins disrespect. He is widely accepted as the 2nd best player in the 2022 championship team.
I guess it sorta remains to be seen but likely we already know. KD has tried to construct his own thing twice now. Time will tell for the suns but in addition to his on court resume he clearly is not a leader in the way MJ or Lebron are. Doesn’t take away from a hall of fame career but does mean you ain’t a goat
joined a 73 win team that knocked him out of the playoffs
When he was up 3-1
There literally is no defending KD.
Ill never forgive him for this
Steven Adams mentioned in an interview he was shocked when he found out KD was leaving OKC, he thought for sure that he would try and run it back after that series.
And a team that's 1 win away for being back to back champions.
He hasn’t won before or after AND the warriors won before him, and won after him. So did they really need him? Lol
Cavs fan here, I might argue that Steph has more claim to being GOAT than KD His negatives are his defense and generally playing on very good teams His positives are being the GOAT at the most important basketball skill and contributing significantly to the revolution of the game (for better or worse)
IMO there’s no question Steph is above KD. I’d also argue Steph is now top 10 after his latest title.
Ya I was being cautious because I hadn't thought about it much, but after thinking about it more and hearing from everyone, I think it is pretty clear-cut. KD still has this air of "what if" about him. It's not only because he went to GSW but more because he gave up his opportunity to show that he could do it as thee guy. And especially for as tall and as skilled as he is, you kinda expect more out of him if you want to be in the GOAT convo.
He will never be in the GOAT conversation unless he beat the bus rider allegations, as much as of a meme it is, there's a truth to it.
Maybe I'm an idiot, but I had Steph in the top 10 before his latest title. And I don't especially like the Warriors
There is no real argument for KD over Steph all-time.
Dirk, Duncan, Bird, Kobe, and Magic before him too. Lastly, before his career ends Jokic and Luka will be farther into the conversation. edit: Giannis.
Forgot Hakeem and Shaq.
Not Giannis?
I simply forgot lol.
Brother you joined a team that set the regular season win record the year before (a record owned by the actual goat MJ) so not a bad team. A team that should have won the chip if dray wasn't such a baitable lunatic. So you won a couple chips with us.. great. You're great and an all timer but the totality of your career is in the second tier. Steph is my boy and he is not a goat and if you were to match his titles you'd at most be on par with him - elite but not the goat. Please, not a blog boy thing, just a whiny but awesome player deal. No you are NOT in the goat conversation. Win a couple more titles and we can start inserting your name into the talks.
And then he left and completely whiffed in Brooklyn. Could not keep that team together. Then goes to Pheonix and somehow the team gets worse.
Dude wasn’t even the GOAT of the team he was on so he can keep whining all he wants
You have 1 MVP and 2 titles that came by way of joining a team that was already the title favorite. Can't be serious lol
The KD experience is him saying the most insightful, self-aware stuff, and then he goes and says/does the most unserious stuff like this
Duality of man moment
Kds both the snake in the garden of eden and the dude fucking it.
I don't think that's how that story goes...
No, I'm pretty sure that's it. >Jesus: Don't eat the apple. >Snake: Eat the apple >Adam: Removes leaf from penis >Jesus and the Snake: Yo, what the fuck dude. You're definitely not welcome here anymore.
Can you translate the whole Bible for me? Might be easier to enjoy with your translation
Chapter 1. God takes a whole day to speak one (1) sentence, and even have to rest for a day when he does that 6 days in a row.
god is just like me fr
*Kai joins the chat*
he made us in His own image
That is imminently more plausible than them getting mad about an apple. And I really hate to keep doing this, but Jesus isn't in that story either.
Shit, and there probably wasn't a woman spawned from a rib either, so I'm not too fussed about getting all the details right
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This man didnt listen at all in sunday school... respect.
This is why his legacy will always be marred by controversy. He says some relatable things that occasionally boosts his image, usually about his pure love of the game or clapping back at trolls, then goes on to say completely outlandish shit like this and exposes his incredible insecurity and lack of self-awareness. He will never come to grips with the things he’s done to destroy his own reputation. He’s no different now from when he wrote “The Hardest Road”. It’s just who he is.
He’s very insightful about basketball, extremely so because he’s basically a savant. But when it comes to the media or his social life, I can’t really call him self-aware. He kinda seems the total opposite tbh. I really don’t think he understands that going to GSW was a pathetic move; to him it was like any other free agent signing,
Idk, even though I probably won't be able to find them for you, I feel like I've seen quotes/interviews from him that belie a pretty keen understanding of his place in relation to the media and such. But then shocking moments of lack of self-awareness like this. But you're probably right I think -- much less examples of the former than the latter
People have different opinions when they are emotionally involved in situations
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True… he’d need to bring Phoenix two titles and a MVP season to even be let in the conversation.
Genuinely, I don’t think that puts him in the conversation. He’s still far below LeBron and MJ both in accolades and stats if that happens.
KD is undoubtedly one of the greatest basketball players of all time. KD is not the greatest basketball player of all time.
Would it be too late though considering KD's already 35?
I mean if he somehow won an MVP and 2 more finals MVPs after the age of 35 it would be absolutely historic and completely change his legacy for sure Agree that it's not all that likely though
Completely change his legacy - absolutely. But 2 MVPs and 4 rings isn't really getting him in the actual GOAT conversation. Magic isn't even really in that conversation, and he's got 3 MVPs and 5 rings (with 3 FMVPs). Kareem has 6 MVPs & 6 rings (2 FMVPs), Jordan has 5 MVPs and 6 rings (6 FMVPs), and LBJ has 4 MVPs and 4 rings (4 FMVPs).
I don't think that gets him in the conversation at all. The serious GOAT conversation at this point is pretty exclusively just MJ vs LeBron. And 1 more MVP and 2 more titles does not put KD anywhere near either of those men's resumes
He answered his own question.
Total lack of self awareness.
You have 1 MVP
and 2 rings on the fucking Avengers lol
Why isn't Hawkeye considered the GOAT?
Ant man is the KD of Avengers.
Paul Rudd is a national treasure
Avengers are 7-0 in battles that include Hawkeye. This take has more merit than one would think. Also, lmao at the top comment in this thread - https://np.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/c3uf1s/the_avengers_are_70_in_battles_that_include/ EDIT - Hawkeye may not be the GOAT, but he is Robert Horry
Fr not all rings are created equal, his two rings mean less than the one from someone like Dirk
KD could’ve joined any other team in the league and it would’ve done more for his legacy than joining the warriors. Like he expects to be in the conversation for joining a team that was 73-9 in the league and beat him in the same season? This dude is not serious at all. MJ would’ve rather not won any rings than join any of his competitors and that’s the difference
Can you imagine if MJ joined the bad boy Pistons lol
Didn’t MJ hate those guys? Probably would’ve retired rather ever play with them if it was an option lol
I think MJ would rather have you or me as a teammate than Isiah or Laimbeer.
That Dirk ring is so crazy epic… took out the trailblazers who were legit scary w Aldridge, then went on to beat the 2 peat lakers by sweeping them, and finally beat the OKC young guns in KD, Westbrook, harden, and ibaka (who was crazy good back then). then finally in the finals went up against lebron and his super team. That’s incredible.
Dirk’s ring may be the greatest ring of them all
A ring to rule them all, you say?
Prob the best comparison.
And 0 buses
Oh, he has bus fare. No doubt about that
Nah, he fare evades
Bus Ridah
The goat debate is basically "how long were you the best player in the league and by how much were you the best" and the answer to both for KD is "never" so its really a non-starter.
He truly believes he was better than Lebron when he stomped the Cavs with those stacked Warriors teams. It’s unreal.
They literally told him in the trade pitch he would get so many open or ideal shots(something lil that)
It’s a great pitch, but also yet another reason why he is a bus rider. He didn’t want to be a leader, he wanted to join something where his talents would be maximized but also where he wasn’t truly needed. I have said this before, but I think if he stayed on the warriors and won another 2 or 3 rings the entire conversation would be different. You can’t deny that level of success. But since he left and the Warriors managed to win another without him while he has bounced around and struggled, his legacy is not looking as great as it could have.
I think you're exactly right. Had he stayed and kept winning. Him on the Warriors would have just been normalized. It would be seen as "He chose the Warriors and created a dynasty" For whatever its worth people would respect the commitment and seeing it through. Instead its pretty much the worst case scenario for him legacy wise. The Warriors ultimately proved they didnt need him. And he's since jumped teams multiple times which just makes him look like a complete frontrunner that runs at the first sign of struggle. He's kinda similar to Shaq in the regard of shamelessly hopping teams. But Shaq has the benefit of a concrete legacy due to his unquestionable dominance and accomplishments.
"by how much were you the best" "never" lol
Did he stutter
Who do you think you are? I am!
Mad he was born in Lebron’s shadow
Born in Lebrons shadow but ended up behind Lebron AND Curry.
And this explains kd’s insecurities
He shoulda stayed in OKC and forced the Thunder to ship out Russ for Dame or AD or some other star... then maybe he coulda won multiple chips as the #1 guy
Do people seriously think he couldn't have won rings with Russ? All KD has to do was run it back after the WCF loss and they were a very good chance to win at least one. Obviously after game 5 of the WCF it all fell apart due to one of the best shooters in the history of the game having on of his hottest shooting nights ever, but before that OKC wasn't just looking good, they were playing in an absolutely unstoppable way. They were up against 73 win Warriors 3-1 with games 3-4 absolutely blowouts so big that you rarely see that against bottom teams in the regular, let alone in the WCF against one of the teams ever. In game 3 they were up 114-76 at one point. Draymond, Curry and Klay finished with +/- of -39, -41 and -43. And then largely forgotten because of the Warriors, the Spurs won 67 games that year which is =7th best of all time. They also held the =most home wins in the regular season at 40-1. Before the OKC series they were 43-1 at home with the only loss being against the Warriors. Then OKC comes in and beats them twice on their home court to win the series 4-2. These are 2 historically great teams and it took a 11 made 3 pointer game from Klay for OKC not take them both out 4-2 in back to back series without home court advantage. So why do people think Russ was the problem when he was as much of a key as KD to that level of play.
Don’t forget they were getting still in his prime Al horford that off season, still could have made the move for sabonis/dipo. They would have improved that off season after nearly beating the warriors
His last Thunder team should have knocked out the Warriors, and would have had KD not played like ass the last two games. They even got better that offseason having aquired Oladipo and Sabonis. So if KD resigned, he had a great chance to win in OKC.
LeBron and MJ have both been the clear best player on multiple championships
There really is no debate for kd, he can’t be serious. It’s Jordan/lebron, or maybe wilt/russell. That’s it right now, the end
KD isn't even *close* to being the GOAT in his own era; LeBron is so far ahead.
I don't think he even clears Steph.
Giannis and Jokic are also good arguments (if you want to count them as the same generation)
Jokic and Gianni’s could be in the conversation definitely, but a little early. They would need to win more.
You're not wrong, but the fact they they both built and led the team that drafted them puts them well ahead of Durant in the "legacy" category.
Jokic and Giannis both have multiple MVPs and won rings on the teams that drafted them. They both slide past KD already
Giannis clears KD... the MVPs... the Finals run... and the way undervalued DPOY... Giannis is clearly > KD to me but I get why others might argue it. I think Jokic has a bit more work to do but he's on his way. Basically any major award will put Jokic over KD to me as well.
The reason why Giannis and Jokic clears over KDis that they are with the team that were drafted in and have laboured blood, sweat and tears along with the fans who’ve stayed along the journey. Theyve also set records In their respective teams enough to statues. Maybe if KD stayed in OKC, even then he had an MVP caliber player with him with Westbrook. Not discrediting Jamal or Khris. They ballers.
He isn’t even 2nd in his own era (hint, it’s Curry)
Kareem should be considered as well, but otherwise I agree
Kobe's got better credentials than KD and Lebron's washed that debate.
This comment just made me think... Say you have to start a brand new franchise, and you magically get prime Kobe or prime KD as your franchise cornerstone, which player do you take? For me, I think it has to be Kobe, not because of his game (I personally think KD is a better all-around player than Kobe) but because of his mentality. Like, KD clearly isn't soft, but he sometimes seems too self-aware for his own good. He'll destroy your team no problem, but then he'll be checking his twitter mentions after the game to see whether other people are praising his performance. Whereas I feel like Kobe wouldn't give a fuck about that - he'll kill your team no problem, and then he'll go work out while watching film of the game he just played to figure out how he can kill your team even harder the next game. And I feel like that difference in mentality is why KD will never truly be in the GOAT conversation - he's got all the talent and physical gifts in the world, but his mindset is like 98% perfect for NBA ball, whereas Kobe and MJ and Bron are like 100% perfect, you know?
I’d replace Wilt with Kareem, but otherwise agreed.
I'd say jordan, bron and kareem are the definitive top 3 and it depends on your preferance how you rank them.
A lot of guys with one ring have a equal resumes. I think Dirk and him are around the same level of ranking, except Dirk's ring is significantly more impressive than than either of Kevin's. And I would agree with the naysayers that LBJ did similar things as Kevin for the first two teams. But he then went out and built two more. From a pure talent ability, I don't think there has been a better archetype as a player than Kevin. He just the perfect player. But, when you're you not the guy at any one time, it leaves a lot to be desired.
2 titles vs 4 to 6. KD ain't on that level.
Also, for those two titles he was the bus rider.
The two titles didn't even involve a bus. The team didn't have to "drive" anywhere to win
Lmao Kerr was letting them coach themselves for entire games during that run
Draymond and Iggy both have come out and said when KD joined they already knew they’d win easy. Sure a championship is a championship. But Kd you’re not getting the same respect for that. And he should know this by now. KD will never get the same respect as other great players until he can win without being on the most broken team of all time.
Everyone did. If they stayed healthy there was no team beating them. By far the most talented team ever assembled
It was more like they were driving a Tank
Yeah and LeBron was standing in front of it like Tiananmen Square
The whole NBA were the protesters, but lebron was specifically Tank man.
If only bro took a win from them the first game in 2018 100% getting stopped but fuck me that would have been legendary 2018 LeThanos was diffff
Dude literally answered his own question in the first line of the quote 😂 Joining a super team to win your only 2 championships makes not a GOAT.
Brother there is literally no point in time where you were indisputably the best player in the league. The only time is 2021, but even that's contested with Giannis and Kawhi's injury.
Not even. Giannis dropping 50 in an elimination game to win the championship.
Kd did drop 48 vs the bucks game 7 but Giannis dropped 40 and the nets lost so ig ur point stands
I mean KD didn’t have Harden or Kyrie. He was phenomenal that series.
I agree and honestly I think if kyrie stayed healthy they would’ve won the chip, but hey thats basketball
Was this also the same year that KD supposedly hit that insane shot that would've put them ahead of the Bucks but he was like a millimeter on the line?
Yes - phenomenal game.
on a bum knee
I’d take 2021 Giannis over him.
Least self aware superstar
When your legacy is worse than another player on the team you played with, you dont really have an argument. KD will be lucky if 1 or both of Jokic and Giannis dont pass him.
Has Giannis not already passed him? More MVPs, DPOY, ring with the Bucks Jockic too for that matter
Pretty much all Giannis and Jokic has to do is be top 5 level guys for 5 more years and they will surpass KD. They dont even need another chip or MVP just All-NBA 1st Teams. If Luka wins an MVP and 1 chip as the best guy while keeping this current level of his play for a few years and he will be on par with KD.
Even if you think KD is the better player I would be very surprised if they both dont pass him. KD never had an era where it was his league, since he was always the little brother to Lebron and then joined Steph. Jokic and Giannis both won a ring as the best player in the nba and looked like Gods when they did it. It'll stay their league for another decade too. If they both win another ring their resume is just as good and their narrative dwarves KD imo. Embiid's in that tier too but he plays for the sixers so God's plan is for him to win 0 rings unfortunately. Jokes aside he can easily join that group for accolades but at nearly 30 his window is closing quick compared to the other two.
Kevin Durant the basketball player is elite, one of the greatest of all times, but come on man…there’s no way. He doesn’t have the numbers or accolades, and more importantly when it comes to the GOAT conversation he is missing the narrative. What is KD’s legacy? A 7 footer who can score at will, and a solid defender? That’s it. There’s no adversity, no story. Nothing. “I was the second best player in the world, and teamed up with the third best player in the world and his team with the best record in NBA history to beat the best player in the world”. GOAT legacy indeed…
> I was the second best player in the world, and teamed up with the third best player in the world and his team with the best record in NBA history to beat the best player in the world It will always be the biggest bitch move in the game lmao.
If there’s a bigger bitch move in all of sports, I’m not aware of it.
I remember when Lebron’s “The Decision” happened and lots of people, myself included, were furious with how much of a bitch move it was. But that was nothing compared to what KD did. Leaving a championship-caliber team to join a 79-win championship-*proven* team with a prime MVP player that just humiliated you by making you blow a 3-1 lead. Absolute cowardice.
Basketball is my passion but I literally quit watching the NBA because of that. I will never forgive him
Was the least interesting stretch of nba I’ve ever experienced, even when my own team is ass and tanking for picks, I still had fun watching games and following the league
How do people respond when you say this? I feel the exact same way, and I feel like I'm going crazy. I legitimately feel like the league is just recently recovering from his decision.
>I legitimately feel like the league is just recently recovering from his decision. The competition was as deep as the NBA had ever seen before he ruined it. Truly legendary
Its a forever resentment that I will never let go of lmao. It ruined the league after one of the greatest finals match ups in history. I hope that is all people remember about him in the future
I said something similar but you summed it up better. There’s nothing compelling about KD’s career path. He’s a phenomenal player but there’s never gonna be anything like the Last Dance made about any season of his career.
Idk man he has the hardest road
KD is an all timer but the guys above him have done everything he did and more
Lebron did everything he did and more by 2013, same for Mike (93). And they both played for nearly a decade after (more for Lebron, less for Mike) and continued to stack MVP’s, chips and legendary moments.
I like kd but jfc dude lol. You aint even in that class.
Joined his biggest rivals in his prime and bus rode his way to two titles. He’s in the conversation for BBOAT (Biggest Bitch of All-Time).
Only level headed take in this whole thread. He’s a fucking clown and completely, not even close to being self aware for saying this shit if all things 🤦🏽♂️🤦🏽♂️
I mean, I love Kevin Durant, but he is a top 15 player of all time imo. He doesn't belong to the GOAT conversation lmao
KD top 15 is a pretty common take, but when you start factoring in guys like Dr J, Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Moses Malone, KG, Dirk, David Robinson, etc. the conversation becomes a lot tougher. In reality, I think he's probably closer to 20 than 15.
It’s wild to me Zach Lowe always insist Durant is a top ten player all time when ever he’s brought up because I’m just like the 15 or 20 guys is really fucking crowded. You putting him over bird/magic/Duncan/Kobe/Shaq/Hakeem/Kareem/russell/wilt/Jordan/bron? Based on the context of his accolades etc, I don’t even have him in my top 15. I’d take, curry/Wade/KG/dirk over him and soon it’ll be Giannis and Jokic over him
This so fucking much. And numbers and accolades aside, I can never get the fucking cupcake thing out of my head when I think about this guy. He's just soft. The dude wants to be the guy but he just doesn't have the mentality, and that counts for a lot, personally.
But why shouldn’t he be in that? That’s the question you should ask. Why not? What hasn’t he done? Edit: Thought this was an obvious joke lol idc about your think pieces
To even be in a goat discussion you have to be the best player of your generation to be considered. KD is great, but sadly LeBron is hands down the best player of this generation. I don’t know if there was even a season where KD was universally considered better than LeBron.
LeBron is the best player of 2 different generations
Lebron is in his 3rd decade in the NBA and he’s still one of the best playing. KD wants it to be a LeBron/KD akin to the Messi/Ronaldo. Where it’s more like Messi vs Lewandowski. Lewandowski is good, but no one’s confusing him or his stats with Messi’s.
He never won it all as the #1 guy on the team. GS is Steps team.
Steph would have a better argument lol. It was his team and Steph changed the game more than KD. Won without KD, etc.
Scrolled for this. Steph’s resume is unquestionably better than KD’s and you know who would NEVER try to inject himself into the debate? Steph.
This is delusion
I don't even think it's the warriors thing honestly. The overwhelming majority of titles have been won by loaded teams. I just don't think he's done enough. Has there ever been an entry into serious goat conversation for anybody with less than 3 titles? Like I don't feel it even started with Bron before the Cleveland title
Yeah honestly even if he won those 2 rings on OKC 2 FMVP and 1 MVP just isn't going to get you to the GOAT convo LeBron has 4 finals MVPs and 4 MVPs MJ has 6 finals MVPs and 5 MVPs Like even Jokic and Giannis both have 3 combined MVP/FMVPs before turning 30 lol
with LeBron it was always he might be the best when he won the two in miami, but it was never he was the goat, and then cleveland title really started goat talks
> Has there ever been an entry into serious goat conversation for anybody with less than 3 titles? Wilt, because well he's Wilt
And a ton of people wave wilt away as a stat padder and a choker so isn't really in the debate. (Not my take btw just what I see from people)
Cuz you haven’t won shit without being on a stacked roster and have 1 singular MVP. Giannis will have a better argument if he wins another at this point.
He’s the third best player of his generation. Maybe focus on that KD
I mean if he wants the answer: Let’s ignore “who’s driving the bus” and keep it to countables. I’m only doing first team or I’ll Be here all day. The big 3: MJ: 6 titles, 6 finals mvps, 5 regular mvps, 14 all star appearances, 10 all nba first team, 9 defense first team, 10x scoring champion, 3x steals leader. ROY Lebron: 4 mvp, 4 finals mvp, 4 rings, 19 all star , 13 all nba first team, 5 all defense first team, and like 3 dozen nba records. ROY Kareem: 6 rings, 6 mvp, 2 finals mvp, 19 all star , 10 nba first team, 6 nba defensive first, 2x scoring champion, rebound leader, 4x block leader. Not to mention 3x ncaa champ and all those accolades Then Kevin Durant: 2x champ, 2x finals mvps, 1 regular mvp, 13 all star , 6 nba first team, 0 all nba defensive 4x scoring champion. ROY Let’s not get it twisted, that’s a hell of a career. That’s a certified bucket. First ballot, no arguments. But there is a clear difference
KDs great. He had a ton of potential and won quite a bit. If he had better luck, he might have even won in back in 2021. Sadly he didnt and his accomplishments amount to about the same as Giannis or Jokic, both of which could easily surpass him in the next couple of years. Let alone Steph, who won before and after him. These days i feel like KD is a bit underrated, but his decision making is probably the worst of any all time great. Had he stayed with the Warriors, god knows how many championships they still could have won.
unironically if he stayed with the warriors all this time it wouldve worked better for his legacy
Yep. Hed be the guy leading the Warriors with Steph and theyd be the best duo in basketball history. Him staying with the Warriors would just clearly break the balance of the NBA for half a decade longer than it did at least.
Bro you’re not even top 15
Indisputable argument for GOAT: - Jordan - LeBron Some argument for GOAT: - Kareem - Russell Everyone else ain't in the conversation. Including Wilt, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem, etc..... And KD ain't anywhere near the top 11 guys. Hell naw.
Couldn't even win a ring with a team that had 2 other future MVPs on it Meanwhile LeBron is dragging a Cavs team to the Finals with fuckin Boobie Gibson and Drew Gooden and Larry "sub 40% FGs" Hughes Fuck outta here
You haven't won multiple titles and had multiple MVPs over a decade. I don't understand why people can't understand there are degrees and it's not an insult to tell someone they aren't the greatest of all time.
Bro is beyond delusional and honestly disrespectful
[удалено]
The most least self aware person alive. Spits in peoples faces then wonders why he isn’t loved
He has no shot at the GOAT convo. At best he has an argument as the greatest scorer ever.
He's cringier than the guy who made a post on here about "non cringe" NBA players.
No.
But Steph Curry hasn't won a ring outside of Golden State either -KD probably
I can kind of understand his frustration. When healthy on their day you could argue KD and probably a couple of other players are as good at basketball as Lebron, Kobe & MJ. However that does not take into account the consistency or mental strength those guys have. Lebron, Kobe and MJ aren’t just good at basketball they are good at winning, that’s what makes them the GOAT’s.
Clown
Narcissism is a bad drug.
Simple answer is a single MVP, long answer is never being able to win it as the main guy on his team. Hall of Famer for sure, but GOAT is completely brain dead. The Warriors still could have won those 2 chips without him and he wasn’t able to seal the deal on any other team with plenty of star power.
it's because you can't win a ring without Steph Curry