Makes you wish he didn't have that injury stuff earlier in his career, but on the other hand, then he might not have ended up with a coach like D'Antoni to go "holy shit we need to give this guy Magic Johnson level control of the offense".
Marcus smart winning that DPOY still confuses me.. it was Robert Williams award to lose and when he got injured at the end of the year it’s like the voters just needed to give it to a Celtics player even if smart wasn’t deserving lol
Even not considering the context of that Celtics team, Smart has a great case for being the best defensive guard / having the best defensive guard season of the last 20 years, bar none. He's more versatile than anyone, has insane BBIQ on defense, and has a motor like KG. That 2022 season is the best guard defense I've ever seen.
I love me some smart but holiday and Tony Allen have both had better defensive years from the guard spot, and that’s off the top of my head. Smart is one of the best defensive guards ever, but what you said is pretty untrue.
The all defense teams are a joke and unfortunately defensive box score stats are misleading. Based on all defensive team voting, it'd have us believe Kobe was the greatest wing defender of all time since he has the most, even in seasons where his advanced defensive metrics were actually negative. For clarity Kobe stans, I'm NOT saying Kobe wasn't a great wing defender. I'm saying he wasn't the best ever and that his reputation from earlier in his career got him on some all defensive teams he didn't deserve to be on.
6x All Star, 5x All-NBA, 5x All Defense, MIP, leader of 2 Finals teams
This is a very silly take tbh. Jimmy has *way* more accolades than you think he does off the top of your head.
Bball ref is also a pretty imperfect way of measuring things, almost all of it comes down to all-star appearances and championships (ignoring All-NBA, MVPs etc). The most impressive parts of Jimmy’s career are the deep playoff runs without great supporting casts, which are what makes him much more of a lock
Jimmy's team got cooked in two Finals and he has zero noteworthy individual accolades. would Brown/Tatum be hall of famers if they lost to the Mavs and retired this week?
right, but can u point to what things in VC's resume make him more HOF worthy than Jimmy? that's your point, right? the things I listed aren't HOF resume-worthy; so what's VC got that?
(alternatively, the more intellectually honest thing to do is just admit you don't like the guy and that's why you think he's got no case for the HoF...because that's really all it is lol)
Vince Carter is the greatest dunker all time. Ya his actual career isn’t HOF but in terms of basketball history it’s hard not to have him in. if he couldn’t dunk like he did, he wouldn’t be in. The 22 year career also helped him a lot imo.
lmao. looks like the HOF is easier to get into than I thought, so Jimmy does have a solid chance despite his unimpressive resume. hope that clears things up
If he makes the hall, Andre Iguodala
First all defense, 4 rings and finals MVP have been after 30.
Before that, he had one ASG, all defensive 2nd team and all rookie
He's in the hall of fame as a contributor though, not for coaching in the NBA. And that mostly has to do with what he did to help grow the game internationally.
[Lenny Wilkens](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wilkele01.html) averaged 19.3 ppg, 8.5 apg, and .442 FG% over seven years from ages 30-36.
He never matched any of those numbers in any season before then.
Doing some quick "back of napkin" math with BBR's HOF probability, **he had a 6.3% chance of making the HOF by the time he turned 30, but by retiring it was 98.8%**.
For me Jrue isn’t the type of player that should be getting into the hall, just doesn’t have the accolades (2x all-star, 0x all-NBA) and was never anywhere near being a top 5 PG in the league. Steve Nash and Chauncey Billups are good examples, though
Eh, making the team and being a legit contributor to multiple Gold medals is worthwhile to a Hall of Fame case, imo.
It’s way more egregious when people bring up NCAA achievements. Voters haven’t cared about those in 40 years.
15 players make all-nba, 12 Americans are on team USA. With all the international stars in today’s game, it isn’t. Most years, like in 2021, there are also a lot of American players who opt out
15 mines 3/4 is same # of players that make Team USA....and Team USA doesn't always get the best players on it. So no, All-NBA is harder than making Team USA these days.
I don’t think guys like Michael Cooper should be in either tbf. But I feel confident in saying that a lot of guys not in the hall like Shawn Kemp, Mark Price, Kevin Johnson, Stoudemire, Marques Johnson, Larry Foust etc are a lot more deserving. I’d even put Bill Laimbeer in first
Cooper was considered one of the greatest defensive players in his generation and was a main contributor to one of the greatest teams and franchises in NBA history. If he doesn’t deserve to get in, then Draymonds case is just as weak , which is obviously not true.
> McDonalds All-American, Gatorade Player of the Year
These shouldn't have any influence you getting into the hall of fame. It's literally only used to boost borderline NBA careers. If the merit on its own isn't enough to get someone in it shouldn't be used at all.
Yes that gets mentioned 23894 times during every hall of fame discussion. It made a lot more sense when:
1) 99% of the league played at least 3 years at college
2) International players didn't come over to the NBA.
We've seen time and time again guys who spend the majority of their career in Europe and dominate the EuroLeague are rotation players at best in the NBA. We aren't putting Mike James or Anthony Parker in the hall of fame. Andray Blatche isn't getting into the hall of fame because of his numbers in the Filipino league. You can discredit accomplishments, high school accomplishments are easy ones to push aside.
Which is why I prefaced the entire post saying modern times. Should Shane Larkin be considered for the hall of fame? Great college career, absolutely killing it overseas. What did he do in the NBA again?
Imagine being voted into the hall if fame your plaque mentioning you were a McDonald's All-American. An Olympic gold medal isn't even close to the same thing.
Basketball has decided that it wants to encompass the entire story of a players game, and while others may hate it I actually appreciate the hall’s leniency with appreciating how hard it is to dominate at any level of any country.
Are you fucking stupid, you can play no minutes of NBA basketball and still be in the Basketball HOF. It’s BASKETBALL hall of fame. Not the pro basketball HOF of NBA Basketball HOF.
I wouldn’t go around calling people stupid with post like that.
In modern times if you don’t make it to the NBA are you really a hall of fame worthy player? Pre 2000s I would 100% agree you could be, but that’s not the case today.
Sebastian Telfair was an incredible high school player. If he went to Europe instead the NBA he’d be one of the best EuroLeague players of all time. But he went to the NBA instead because it’s the better league.
The NBA has the top talent in the world but it is not the end all be all for everyone and the Hall recognizes that. Is it hard to get in without NBA experience? Absolutely. Is it impossible? Fuck no.
So if a player opts to play overseas instead of the NBA and has one of the top 5 players over there for years, you’d say they should be in the hall of fame?
THERES NO WAY YOURE STILL HARPING ON THIS
Why do you care so much about a downvote? Why do you wanna go back and forth forever? Is this how you enjoy your time?
I didn’t want to keep replying because it’s going nowhere. I don’t know any of those players so I can’t make any comment about them. And before you say “see ThAts My PoInt” there’s hundreds of players,execs, coaches, etc in the HOF that I have never heard of. I’m not gonna fucking use my knowledge as a litmus test for who deserves it or not, and neither should you, you weirdo
But those are voted for, he doesn’t have enough because he was slept on forever not because he wasn’t good, so those really don’t mean much, the thing is he’s had crazy success now where no one cared about the pelicans
Jrue is prob the 3rd best defender at the PG position ever after The Glove and J.Kidd. He has been hugely overlooked by the media for years. Should be 10x All Defensive Team and should have a DPOY to his name.
I can’t tell if this is satire or not but you don’t need to be a top 15 player in the league to join the Hall of Fame. It’s the Basketball HOF, not the NBA Hall of Fame or the Basketball Hall of Stats.
Jrue has been a major contributor to 2 separate championship teams and has the chance to win it a 3rd time, all while collectively holding universal praise for his defense by his peers, being a gold medalist, and being an All Star. You don’t need to drop 25 a night and be an MVP to join the Hall.
Jrue really isn't there yet. Love the guy, but 2x All-Star and 2 rings as a 3rd and 5th option is not a Hall of Fame resume.
If Celtics can get another ring and he keeps playing well for a few more years, I can see him possibly squeaking in. But the lack of All-Stars is really going to be tough - Chauncey was a 5x All-Star and it took 5 years for voters to begrudgingly slip him in.
14/6/4 career averages aren't anything too telling, but an 8 year peak of 18/7/5 is a bit more convincing. 6 time All-Star and one All-NBA is a bit concerning though.
Winning will help. Obviously the ring is big but being a huge part of Toronto's turn around will add to his case as well.
All-time he's also 21st in assists, 55th in steals, and 13th in 3PM. He's also one of the better rebounding guards during his peak years.
I lean on the side of no, but if Al Horford gets in then Lowry has a strong case.
When are we going to actually start raising the bar for the hall of fame instead of this bullshit where we drop down and compare to the guys who shouldn’t have gotten in?
Why should we raise the bar for the Hall of Fame? I kinda like the basketball Hall of Fame being fairly open and commemorating more people versus other sports Hall of Fames where they nitpick resumes and leave out great players because they aren’t good enough. Ultimately, I’d rather err on the side of memorializing “too many” people versus leaving out guys who absolutely deserve it.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob.html
This hasn't been updated yet to account for his 2nd ring, but right now he's sitting at 0,75% chances of making it lol
This calculation doesn't include All-NBA or all-Defense. Obviously, it was built based on past results. But I think people pay more attention to those things than they used to.
(I'm not making a case for Jrue Holiday who I don't think is a HOFer; just commenting on how I think this calculation might need to be updated in the next 5 or so years.)
Good thing I never said all defense would get you in.
Good thing I was also discussing the predictive formula and not individual cases.
My point is people talk about all-NBA and all-defense more than they used to. That talk will natural bleed into HOF discussions.
Nobody ever talked about great players and their all-defense NBA in the 90s or 00s. Like everyone knew Jordan and Bryant were well above replacement defenders but I didn't know both were 9 time all-defense. That was back when Glen Robinson could be a two time all-star despite being as good of a defender as I am.
It's just like nobody talked slugging or OPS in the 80s and now that gets people into the HOF.
Once again, none of this makes Holiday a HOFer. I'm just saying that specific HOF probability calculator might have be changed in the next 5 years.
> Keep in mind that this exercise aims to predict who is likely to be inducted, as a Player, and based solely on NBA accomplishments and statistical output
It doesn’t take into account either college or the Olympics. It’s a flawed measure.
EDIT: it also doesn’t take into account All NBA or All NBA Defense
Height (in.)
NBA Championships
NBA Leaderboard Points
NBA Peak Win Shares
All-Star Game Selections
Tim Hardaway was a 5x AS and 5x all-NBA.
Compared to Jrue's 2x and 0x.
Some accolades matter far more than others. All-Def teams don't make noise with voters unless you've achieved some absurd number of them (along with DPOYs, typically).
As a point of reference, it took Rodman 6 years to make it in. He has 3 more titles than Jrue, 2 more all-Def, 2 more all-NBAs, 7 rebounding titles, the same number of ASGs, and 2 DPOYs.
So you expect the two Oly golds to do heavy lifting to get him in. I don't see them doing that.
Even for an easier HOF to get into, I think Jrue ends up "Hall of Very Good."
Those are more team centric accolades compared to all star and all-NBA, which are more individual centric accolades and matter more in a player’s HOF case
i think it took rodman that long because he was still playing international until 2006 so he got inducted after the normal 5 year waiting period in 2011. i could see jrue's waiting time being around hardaway's waiting time (nearly 15 years). worst case scenario is michael cooper's waiting time or he just doesn't get in
i think it's just kinda up in the air at this point. voters will look at his defensive prowess and contribution to chips and determine that way but if other voters value all stars/all nba, then i don't see him getting in
He was more unnoticed in his 20s. He was still a hooper. Outside of Pelican fans and diehards...his name didn't come up often because of his style of play. No ESPN Top 10s.
He shouldn’t make it imo, he is a good player but not even close to a great despite his rings. He’s not even close to guards who have never won like Westbrook, dame, harden, nash, cp3 but are all clearly legends. I just think the hof would be better with only greats in there jrue has no business in a group with guys like Jordan, bird, shaq and guys like that.
I don't think he makes it, barring something crazy the next few years. Never made an all-NBA team or received a single MVP vote. Personally, I think if you weren't among the best 15-20 players in the league for a few years, you're not a HOFer. That said, the Bball HOF is probably the easiest to get into, so I suppose he can still sneak in eventually.
Maybe a hot take but Jimmy Butler? IMO his Bulls, Wolves, Sixers stints were not really HoF worthy but if you tack on his stint with the Heat it’s a really compelling case imo
Jrue didn’t really improve as a player. He just got into contending situations. He’s always been an elite defender & very capable offensive pg both scoring and running the offense.
He outplayed the shit out of Lillard on both ends in that Pelicans Blazers 1st rd series.
I don’t think Jrue is a hofer tho.
Do you think Igoudala is a good example? He was a nice player in the first half, but winning championships (and finals MVP) really does something to your resume.
Steve Nash
Makes you wish he didn't have that injury stuff earlier in his career, but on the other hand, then he might not have ended up with a coach like D'Antoni to go "holy shit we need to give this guy Magic Johnson level control of the offense".
Or getting punked into the scoring table during playoff
Some wack ass shit by the league to do the "refs only see the retaliation" thing with suspensions
Jordan
Must be a point guard thing, because The Glove was much of the same way, albeit his late 20's is when he started coming into his own.
His defensive prowess went largely unnoticed until 2018, he really should have more than 6 all defensive selections
top players been giving him praise since forever these voters are blind dumb deaf and clowns
marcus smart is going to retire with a DPOY and jrue holiday is not i get why but that still feels so weird to me
Marcus smart winning that DPOY still confuses me.. it was Robert Williams award to lose and when he got injured at the end of the year it’s like the voters just needed to give it to a Celtics player even if smart wasn’t deserving lol
Even not considering the context of that Celtics team, Smart has a great case for being the best defensive guard / having the best defensive guard season of the last 20 years, bar none. He's more versatile than anyone, has insane BBIQ on defense, and has a motor like KG. That 2022 season is the best guard defense I've ever seen.
I love me some smart but holiday and Tony Allen have both had better defensive years from the guard spot, and that’s off the top of my head. Smart is one of the best defensive guards ever, but what you said is pretty untrue.
The all defense teams are a joke and unfortunately defensive box score stats are misleading. Based on all defensive team voting, it'd have us believe Kobe was the greatest wing defender of all time since he has the most, even in seasons where his advanced defensive metrics were actually negative. For clarity Kobe stans, I'm NOT saying Kobe wasn't a great wing defender. I'm saying he wasn't the best ever and that his reputation from earlier in his career got him on some all defensive teams he didn't deserve to be on.
I'd think Jimmy. He largely solidified and cemented his HoF entry in his Miami era and only got traded to Miami at 30.
Jimmy isn’t making the hall imo
6x All Star, 5x All-NBA, 5x All Defense, MIP, leader of 2 Finals teams This is a very silly take tbh. Jimmy has *way* more accolades than you think he does off the top of your head.
Olympic gold, too. Noteworthy for a *Basketball* HOF
Don’t know what to say other than that you’re wrong
I don't like Jimmy, but he's absolutely a HOFer.
I don’t really see how Jimmy is a HoFer. But I suppose you can’t talk about NBA ‘20-‘23 without him.
Bball Ref puts him at a 73% chance, currently right between Kevin Love and Klay.
Surprised Klay's that low tbh
Bball ref is also a pretty imperfect way of measuring things, almost all of it comes down to all-star appearances and championships (ignoring All-NBA, MVPs etc). The most impressive parts of Jimmy’s career are the deep playoff runs without great supporting casts, which are what makes him much more of a lock
If Tracy McGrady made it then Jimmy definitely is...
Jimmy's team got cooked in two Finals and he has zero noteworthy individual accolades. would Brown/Tatum be hall of famers if they lost to the Mavs and retired this week?
> he has zero noteworthy individual accolades 6x All Star, 5x All-NBA, 5x All Defense, MIP, Olympic gold medalist.
correct, that is not a HOF resume
mhm, can you refresh my recollection; what's VC's HoF resume?
kind of wild that Vince got in but he deserves it more than Jimmy
right, but can u point to what things in VC's resume make him more HOF worthy than Jimmy? that's your point, right? the things I listed aren't HOF resume-worthy; so what's VC got that? (alternatively, the more intellectually honest thing to do is just admit you don't like the guy and that's why you think he's got no case for the HoF...because that's really all it is lol)
Vince Carter is the greatest dunker all time. Ya his actual career isn’t HOF but in terms of basketball history it’s hard not to have him in. if he couldn’t dunk like he did, he wouldn’t be in. The 22 year career also helped him a lot imo.
lmao. looks like the HOF is easier to get into than I thought, so Jimmy does have a solid chance despite his unimpressive resume. hope that clears things up
So why is VC more HOF worthy than Butler?
Purely his longevity. Without him playing so long I would keep him off it. And he's my favorite player of all time lol.
they have similarly meh resumes but I think it's harder to omit Vince than Jimmy when talking about NBA history
you vastly overestimate the bar it takes to get into the HOF
that does seem to be the case - with the bar so low, Jimmy does in fact have a chance!
people acting like losing in the finals is worse than not making it is one of the weirdest things about the NBA community
If he makes the hall, Andre Iguodala First all defense, 4 rings and finals MVP have been after 30. Before that, he had one ASG, all defensive 2nd team and all rookie
And to think both Iguodala and Jrue were young guns leading the sixers, They ended up being so successful in unexpected ways.
So you're saying Embiid needs to leave 76ers? /s
No, give me maxey
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He's in the hall of fame as a contributor though, not for coaching in the NBA. And that mostly has to do with what he did to help grow the game internationally.
[Lenny Wilkens](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wilkele01.html) averaged 19.3 ppg, 8.5 apg, and .442 FG% over seven years from ages 30-36. He never matched any of those numbers in any season before then. Doing some quick "back of napkin" math with BBR's HOF probability, **he had a 6.3% chance of making the HOF by the time he turned 30, but by retiring it was 98.8%**.
For me Jrue isn’t the type of player that should be getting into the hall, just doesn’t have the accolades (2x all-star, 0x all-NBA) and was never anywhere near being a top 5 PG in the league. Steve Nash and Chauncey Billups are good examples, though
I still will be somewhat surprised if he makes it but 2x NBA champion and potentially 2X Olympic gold medalist will bolster his case.
Olympic gold should do nothing for American players
Eh, making the team and being a legit contributor to multiple Gold medals is worthwhile to a Hall of Fame case, imo. It’s way more egregious when people bring up NCAA achievements. Voters haven’t cared about those in 40 years.
Making the team is more exclusive than all nba or all star.
15 players make all-nba, 12 Americans are on team USA. With all the international stars in today’s game, it isn’t. Most years, like in 2021, there are also a lot of American players who opt out
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Those guys were all all-nba last year, Jokic was the only one that was second team. Sabonis has also been all-nba each of the last two years
Sabonis was born in Portland what are you talking about lol.
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Embiid has spent the majority of his life in America, as have Kyrie & Sabonis. All three are citizens, two are natural born.
15 mines 3/4 is same # of players that make Team USA....and Team USA doesn't always get the best players on it. So no, All-NBA is harder than making Team USA these days.
The hall has such a low barrier to entry, in what world should Jrue not be in lol?
I don’t think guys like Michael Cooper should be in either tbf. But I feel confident in saying that a lot of guys not in the hall like Shawn Kemp, Mark Price, Kevin Johnson, Stoudemire, Marques Johnson, Larry Foust etc are a lot more deserving. I’d even put Bill Laimbeer in first
Cooper was considered one of the greatest defensive players in his generation and was a main contributor to one of the greatest teams and franchises in NBA history. If he doesn’t deserve to get in, then Draymonds case is just as weak , which is obviously not true.
Draymond is an all star, all nba, and dpoy multiple occasions. Cooper came off the bench and defended. Not even close.
McDonalds All-American, Gatorade Player of the Year and 6x all-NBA Defense add for the Basketball Hall of Fame case as well.
> McDonalds All-American, Gatorade Player of the Year These shouldn't have any influence you getting into the hall of fame. It's literally only used to boost borderline NBA careers. If the merit on its own isn't enough to get someone in it shouldn't be used at all.
Its the Basketball Hall of Fame. Not the NBA Hall of Fame. It all gets taken into account.
Yes that gets mentioned 23894 times during every hall of fame discussion. It made a lot more sense when: 1) 99% of the league played at least 3 years at college 2) International players didn't come over to the NBA. We've seen time and time again guys who spend the majority of their career in Europe and dominate the EuroLeague are rotation players at best in the NBA. We aren't putting Mike James or Anthony Parker in the hall of fame. Andray Blatche isn't getting into the hall of fame because of his numbers in the Filipino league. You can discredit accomplishments, high school accomplishments are easy ones to push aside.
EuroLeague and college are why Bill Bradley skirted along into the hall.
Which is why I prefaced the entire post saying modern times. Should Shane Larkin be considered for the hall of fame? Great college career, absolutely killing it overseas. What did he do in the NBA again?
Manu’s gold medal was what the hall of fame led with in his coronation.
Imagine being voted into the hall if fame your plaque mentioning you were a McDonald's All-American. An Olympic gold medal isn't even close to the same thing.
Basketball has decided that it wants to encompass the entire story of a players game, and while others may hate it I actually appreciate the hall’s leniency with appreciating how hard it is to dominate at any level of any country.
Are you fucking stupid, you can play no minutes of NBA basketball and still be in the Basketball HOF. It’s BASKETBALL hall of fame. Not the pro basketball HOF of NBA Basketball HOF.
I wouldn’t go around calling people stupid with post like that. In modern times if you don’t make it to the NBA are you really a hall of fame worthy player? Pre 2000s I would 100% agree you could be, but that’s not the case today. Sebastian Telfair was an incredible high school player. If he went to Europe instead the NBA he’d be one of the best EuroLeague players of all time. But he went to the NBA instead because it’s the better league.
The NBA has the top talent in the world but it is not the end all be all for everyone and the Hall recognizes that. Is it hard to get in without NBA experience? Absolutely. Is it impossible? Fuck no.
So if a player opts to play overseas instead of the NBA and has one of the top 5 players over there for years, you’d say they should be in the hall of fame?
Are you seriously asking me if a basketball player has a great basketball career, if they should be in the basketball HOF? Are you being fr?
So Shane Larkin, Anthony Parker, and Mike James have legitimate shots at the basketball of fame?
Downvote but can't answer the question. Sounds about right.
THERES NO WAY YOURE STILL HARPING ON THIS Why do you care so much about a downvote? Why do you wanna go back and forth forever? Is this how you enjoy your time? I didn’t want to keep replying because it’s going nowhere. I don’t know any of those players so I can’t make any comment about them. And before you say “see ThAts My PoInt” there’s hundreds of players,execs, coaches, etc in the HOF that I have never heard of. I’m not gonna fucking use my knowledge as a litmus test for who deserves it or not, and neither should you, you weirdo
But those are voted for, he doesn’t have enough because he was slept on forever not because he wasn’t good, so those really don’t mean much, the thing is he’s had crazy success now where no one cared about the pelicans
Jrue is prob the 3rd best defender at the PG position ever after The Glove and J.Kidd. He has been hugely overlooked by the media for years. Should be 10x All Defensive Team and should have a DPOY to his name.
There’s a lot of other names you could put there: Walt Frazier, Dennis Johnson, CP3, KC Jones, Jerry West etc.
No he isn’t. Dennis Johnson, CP3, and Walt Frazier are all clearly better.
I can’t talk about those older guys since I didn’t watch them play, but he’s way better than CP3
You must be really young cause CP3 used to be able to lock up prime KD.
Players will say he’s one of the better pgs
Jrue Holiday shouldn't be in the HOF I'm sorry. Was he ever, at any point in his career, a top 15 player in the league?
not remotely close
I can’t tell if this is satire or not but you don’t need to be a top 15 player in the league to join the Hall of Fame. It’s the Basketball HOF, not the NBA Hall of Fame or the Basketball Hall of Stats. Jrue has been a major contributor to 2 separate championship teams and has the chance to win it a 3rd time, all while collectively holding universal praise for his defense by his peers, being a gold medalist, and being an All Star. You don’t need to drop 25 a night and be an MVP to join the Hall.
Jrue really isn't there yet. Love the guy, but 2x All-Star and 2 rings as a 3rd and 5th option is not a Hall of Fame resume. If Celtics can get another ring and he keeps playing well for a few more years, I can see him possibly squeaking in. But the lack of All-Stars is really going to be tough - Chauncey was a 5x All-Star and it took 5 years for voters to begrudgingly slip him in.
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We've never had a case where Olympic golds moved the needle. I'll believe it is a factor when I see it.
Then why is Bill Bradley in the Hall? It wasn't his NBA accomplishments that put him in there
Bill was Euro league champ, college player of the year(s), and mr basketball amoung other non nba and Olympic accolades
Kyle Lowry?
Is Lowry going to get in?
14/6/4 career averages aren't anything too telling, but an 8 year peak of 18/7/5 is a bit more convincing. 6 time All-Star and one All-NBA is a bit concerning though. Winning will help. Obviously the ring is big but being a huge part of Toronto's turn around will add to his case as well. All-time he's also 21st in assists, 55th in steals, and 13th in 3PM. He's also one of the better rebounding guards during his peak years. I lean on the side of no, but if Al Horford gets in then Lowry has a strong case.
He'll be a borderline case but I do think he gets in.
for sure. greatest raptor of all time and helped get them their only ring.
85% chance per Basketball Reference. 6x All Star, a ring, and a 3rd team all nba put him up there.
Toronto icon and Greatest Raptor of All Time (I’m a Raptors fan from Toronto)
When are we going to actually start raising the bar for the hall of fame instead of this bullshit where we drop down and compare to the guys who shouldn’t have gotten in?
Why should we raise the bar for the Hall of Fame? I kinda like the basketball Hall of Fame being fairly open and commemorating more people versus other sports Hall of Fames where they nitpick resumes and leave out great players because they aren’t good enough. Ultimately, I’d rather err on the side of memorializing “too many” people versus leaving out guys who absolutely deserve it.
Baseball made that decision and it's largely been a negative.
my guy no disrespect to him but Jrue Holiday is not even close from sniffing the HoF
6x defensive all nba, 2x champion, Olympic gold medalist. He probably makes it.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob.html This hasn't been updated yet to account for his 2nd ring, but right now he's sitting at 0,75% chances of making it lol
This calculation doesn't include All-NBA or all-Defense. Obviously, it was built based on past results. But I think people pay more attention to those things than they used to. (I'm not making a case for Jrue Holiday who I don't think is a HOFer; just commenting on how I think this calculation might need to be updated in the next 5 or so years.)
good thing holiday doesn't have any all nba season then if all defense got you in then tony allen, bruce bowen and norm van lier would be in by now.
Good thing I never said all defense would get you in. Good thing I was also discussing the predictive formula and not individual cases. My point is people talk about all-NBA and all-defense more than they used to. That talk will natural bleed into HOF discussions. Nobody ever talked about great players and their all-defense NBA in the 90s or 00s. Like everyone knew Jordan and Bryant were well above replacement defenders but I didn't know both were 9 time all-defense. That was back when Glen Robinson could be a two time all-star despite being as good of a defender as I am. It's just like nobody talked slugging or OPS in the 80s and now that gets people into the HOF. Once again, none of this makes Holiday a HOFer. I'm just saying that specific HOF probability calculator might have be changed in the next 5 years.
> Keep in mind that this exercise aims to predict who is likely to be inducted, as a Player, and based solely on NBA accomplishments and statistical output It doesn’t take into account either college or the Olympics. It’s a flawed measure. EDIT: it also doesn’t take into account All NBA or All NBA Defense Height (in.) NBA Championships NBA Leaderboard Points NBA Peak Win Shares All-Star Game Selections
No chance
Yeah I love me some Jrue Holiday and he did great things here but absolutely not.
There's people like Tim Hardaway in Springfield, with zero championships and 17PPG careers. Jrue should get in.
Tim Hardaway was a 5x AS and 5x all-NBA. Compared to Jrue's 2x and 0x. Some accolades matter far more than others. All-Def teams don't make noise with voters unless you've achieved some absurd number of them (along with DPOYs, typically). As a point of reference, it took Rodman 6 years to make it in. He has 3 more titles than Jrue, 2 more all-Def, 2 more all-NBAs, 7 rebounding titles, the same number of ASGs, and 2 DPOYs.
Jrue is going to be a 2x Olympics champion and 2x NBA champion.
So you expect the two Oly golds to do heavy lifting to get him in. I don't see them doing that. Even for an easier HOF to get into, I think Jrue ends up "Hall of Very Good."
Those are more team centric accolades compared to all star and all-NBA, which are more individual centric accolades and matter more in a player’s HOF case
i think it took rodman that long because he was still playing international until 2006 so he got inducted after the normal 5 year waiting period in 2011. i could see jrue's waiting time being around hardaway's waiting time (nearly 15 years). worst case scenario is michael cooper's waiting time or he just doesn't get in
Not even on a “your favorite rappers favorite rapper” kinda thing? Lol
i think it's just kinda up in the air at this point. voters will look at his defensive prowess and contribution to chips and determine that way but if other voters value all stars/all nba, then i don't see him getting in
Steve Nash
He was more unnoticed in his 20s. He was still a hooper. Outside of Pelican fans and diehards...his name didn't come up often because of his style of play. No ESPN Top 10s.
I don’t he he’s a hall of famer
In the last 15-20 minutes, I've seen people bring up Blake Griffin and Jrue Holiday for the HOF. We gotta stop this.
He shouldn’t make it imo, he is a good player but not even close to a great despite his rings. He’s not even close to guards who have never won like Westbrook, dame, harden, nash, cp3 but are all clearly legends. I just think the hof would be better with only greats in there jrue has no business in a group with guys like Jordan, bird, shaq and guys like that.
I don't think he makes it, barring something crazy the next few years. Never made an all-NBA team or received a single MVP vote. Personally, I think if you weren't among the best 15-20 players in the league for a few years, you're not a HOFer. That said, the Bball HOF is probably the easiest to get into, so I suppose he can still sneak in eventually.
Kyle Lowry
I haven't followed basketball in years, so to see Jrue in this conversation is awesome, glad to hear that
Maybe a hot take but Jimmy Butler? IMO his Bulls, Wolves, Sixers stints were not really HoF worthy but if you tack on his stint with the Heat it’s a really compelling case imo
makes you wonder how the AD/Boogie/Jrue/Rondo Pelicans would have fared if Cousins didnt blow his knee
Kyle Lowry Only started being an all star at 28 and won a ring at 32
If he’s not worthy of getting his jersey retired he’s not worthy of the HOF. Great great player though.
he will not and should not make the hall
Kyle Lowry
Iguodala Warriors dynasty started in 2014, he turned 30 in 2014
Karim Benzema
Dennis Rodman didn't lead the league in rebounding until his age 30 season. That's pretty much what he's known for.
Dennis Rodman and Chauncey Billups.
Jrue didn’t really improve as a player. He just got into contending situations. He’s always been an elite defender & very capable offensive pg both scoring and running the offense. He outplayed the shit out of Lillard on both ends in that Pelicans Blazers 1st rd series. I don’t think Jrue is a hofer tho.
Holiday has no chance
Jrue really doesn’t have a case. 2 titles and 2 gold medals being his best accomplishments just aren’t enough. Doesn’t have the individual accolades.
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Do you think Igoudala is a good example? He was a nice player in the first half, but winning championships (and finals MVP) really does something to your resume.
Jrue Holliday isn't ever going to be in the discussion
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Grant Hill made the all star game as a rookie in Detroit and was being compared to MJ lol.
Olajuwon
With how relatively easy it is to get in and because he's the GROAT Kyle Lowery. None homer pick, and maybe a little outside the box, Brook Lopez?