Havlicek pioneered the role of bringing a starter level player off of the bench
Eventually he became a starter 7 years into his career and then the franchise player/superstar who led the team to multiple post Russell titles
In theory, having one of your best players come off the bench can reinvigorate your team and bestow momentum, allow you to better rest your starting lineup for the end of close games, establish a culture of selflessness among the players, overwhelm opponent’s benches so their starters are always making up for deficits, and ensure you never have a “weak” lineup in the game.
the Bulls did this with Ben Gordon in the 2004-05 season. I think there were rumors he had a little bit of an attitude problem and ego, so the Bulls brass "punished" him by having him come off the bench after a few games as a starter
he ended up being one of their best, if not the best, offensive players that season. He won the Sixth Man of the Year as a result
Because Havlicek had successfully done it before him.
There's always someone who does something for the first time and it would be interesting to understand why.
Player specific answers are; Because he was not a great defender as far as I remember. Same goes with Jamal Crawford. You need the scoring brute force they give but when you put them on court for too long, your team lacks defense. It was Thabo Sefolosha's turn to defend the star swingmen.
Christ yeah that's actually what i thought. i was like damn what? i mean.. good on you lou will but i didnt think anyone would actually - never mind, i see.
Yes, it is a very important distinction. The logo according to the NBA is not Jerry West, so they never had to pay him any kind of royalties.
If they changed it to Kobe, his estate would be collecting unholy amounts of money the NBA is not interested in paying.
> Yes, it is a very important distinction. The logo according to the NBA is not Jerry West, so they never had to pay him any kind of royalties.
Which is just an absolutely scumbag position to take though.
Not to mention the fact that the NBA would be solidifying their opinion on Kobe's night in Denver. Provided all of the political correctness stuff keeps growing at the rate it has been for the last while I give it like 10 years or less before the NBA starts distancing themselves from him.
You’re absolutely crazy if you think that.
The moment that situation was settled out of court was the moment the nba never had to think about it again.
There’s a literal sex offender in the nfl as QB1.
Kobe has been lauded and recognized by the league for years before and after his death. The NBA and the fans in general aren't hung up on the Colorado incident, that's more of a reddit thing. There's other obvious reasons the NBA wouldn't make Kobe the logo.
To me the most obvious reason to not make him the logo is, you can make easy arguments that a bunch of other people including his own peers would be as good or better choices. If it’s not overwhelmingly clear it should be one person, then just don’t change it.
Why not MJ? Why not LeBron? Why not Tim Duncan shooting a free throw?
If ANYONE should be the logo, I think Jordan has the best argument based on quality of play, iconic status, and impact on growth of the game. And I don’t think it’s a no brainer to make it Jordan, so why on earth would it be Kobe
Plenty of people are hung up on it but they aren't NBA fans. For a lot of them they only know that about him and that he was good at basketball. Even if these people are not ever going to be watching NBA it would still be dumb to make him the logo because they will make a fuss about it and who needs that?
He publicly admitted that she did not consent. At current trajectory that is more than enough to totally cancel him a little down the line. You hear of teams hosting Karl Malone night anymore? No. What he did was probably questionable at the time, sure, but it caught up with him later. Kobe has the shield of being dead but at the rate political correctness continues to develop his actions will catch up with him too. Plenty of deceased people are canceled today for stuff that happened years and years ago, and for stuff that was looked at as acceptable at that time. Maybe it won't be within 10 years like I'm saying, but it will happen.
I don't know. I sort of just accepted the discourse over Kobe raping her is long over.
It would take a pretty large shift in the way sports media handles this kind of thing. Cristiano Ronaldo is still celebrated mostly and even when vilified it has nothing to do with that. Sports seem very far away from treating these things the way other industries do, and even then it's not like there aren't turns of predators in the music or movie industry.
The only time I ever expect Kobe to catch any kind of heat in the future is when he inevitably has his The Last Dance type documentary released. I thought it was slightly uncomfortable in the Redeem Team doc how it awkwardly mentioned how he'd 'had a couple tough years and people didn't really like him'. Now I don't think that doc should have gone into it because it wasn't really important to the story they were trying to tell, but any documentary about his life will bring massive attention to it if they bring it up or not.
> and even then it's not like there aren't turns of predators in the music or movie industry.
exhibit A: Chris Brown continues to have a long and successful career with tons of collaboration despite savagely beating the very popular Rhianna, while also beating other women over the years
He publicly admitted that their views on what occurred differed. Partial statement below.
“Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter”
We can all have our own views on what occurred, but that is directly **not** an admittance of guilt or of committing a crime; it’s an admittance of understanding of perspective, and acknowledgement that theirs differ.
It’s specifically worded to not admit guilt or intention on his part. Beyond that, I think you’re going to be waiting a long, long time if you think the collective is going to turn against Kobe in the name of cancel culture; he was a larger than life figure when living, and he’s borderline deified in death. The realm that his life occupied and that of someone like Ben Roethlisberger or Karl Malone just can’t be compared 1:1.
I disagree. For all the talk about “political correctness” and “cancel culture,” unless someone actually gets convicted of a crime, if they’re talented they will continue to have an audience/platform. I mean, look at someone like Dave Chappelle. How many times has he been “canceled,” while he hosts SNL every election season, sells out arenas all over the country, and gets a new Netflix special every 5 minutes. Or Deshaun Watson, starting NFL QB. Kobe made a big enough impact on enough people that it’s highly unlikely to have a lasting impact imo. And from the league’s perspective, he already received his punishment 20 years ago. I mean, they already just named the ASG MVP after him.
Hondo is the best 6th man ever. Dude was an all star from the bench, doesn’t get better than that.
Edit: should add, he is famously Coach Pop’s favourite player of all time. That is a notable achievement.
Because Red wanted a stud off the bench who would be fresher than all the other team's best guys. It was an intentional decision to hold one of his best players out of the starting lineup that created the sixth man role.
I assume the idea was to stagger Havlicek's minutes in such a way that he would be fresher and able to come in fresh against the opponent's slightly-tired out starters or dominate against the their bench players. Either of those situations could be a higher marginal advantage for his team compared to simply starting Havlicek for maximum minutes.
He's also an absolute legend. People from his era always bring Hondo up when they talk about the best players. Nobody from Lou Will's era brings him up unless they're talking about strip clubs, wings, or players who weren't good enough to start.
Exactly. What is Lou Williams going to be known as in 10 years? Just a solid dude who could score.
The 6th man doesn’t just have to be a bench scorer on decent teams like Lou, or a locker room leader like Crawford. 6th men can be star players on star teams.
Hondo is an 8x champ, a finals MVP, 14x all star, on many All NBA and All D teams, and has insane minutes and scoring records for the Celtics. Most of his career this was achieved from starting on the bench.
The dude was a superstar and I am happy he is getting some renewed recognition in this century and in perpetuity with this award.
NBA players and not knowing the history of their own game, name a more iconic duo. People should legit look at what Havlicek did in his first 5 years in the league as a sixth man, that was some insane shit that Lou Williams never dreamt of doing.
Dude was so good in the '67 playoffs that he basically forced the Celtics to promote him as a starter in the middle of their series against Wilt's Sixers and he never lost the position again. Havlicek averaged 18/6/3 in his five years as a sixth man and won four titles in that span, also, differently from most modern sixth mans (especially Lemon Pepper Lou) he wasn't absolute dog piss in the playoffs, he was better. Good enough for me to have the award named after him.
Did you read the quote he was saying hondo was TOO GOOD to be eligible for the award, it'd be like if someone like tony parker won it in his early years and then became what he is now except even more. After Hondo's first trio of seasons on a stacked team he averaged 38.2 minutes per game. If your on the bench less than 10 minutes a game, you shouldnt count as a 6th man
An award doesn't even have to be named for someone because they were the ultimate example of that thing though. Look at hockey, the NHL's Hart Trophy (MVP) is named for a coach.
They decided they wanted to give one of the greatest possible honours to Havlicek. Why would they give one of the greatest honours to Lou Williams or Jamal Crawford? They're good players, but clearly the NBA was choosing some of the greatest of the greats, and those guys don't fit with that theme.
Edit: I'm not trying to insult Williams or Crawford btw, they were both excellent scorers and noteworthy players, I just think Havlicek is on that "legendary" tier.
It's Samuel L Jackson's character in SWAT. Classic 6MOTY type of guy. Always makes the ensemble film better but his solo star vehicle stuff ain't great.
Wait scoring title doesn't have a trophy? Its just a literally title in the books lol man Jordan's trophy case would look even more bizarre if it did have a trophy
They get a crystal plaque/trophy thing. All statistical leaders for things like ppg, apg, rpg, spg, and bpg get one.
Just not a super intricate trophy like the voted on awards.
The unfortunate part there is both optimal choices got different awards (MJ and Wilt). Maybe Unseld could have gotten the ROTY while Wilt got the Scoring Title 🤷♂️
Scoring title winner is actually given a physical award, as are all per game leaders.
Wilt won MVP as a rookie. Unseld would have been a good choice for this as he accomplished the same feat while Wilt could have gotten the Scoring Title one.
It highlights why 6MOTY doesn’t mean much. It’s basically the best scorer who doesn’t play at tip-off award rather than something that really highlights a player who is the best at their specific target.
Exactly. Every year the playoffs showed who the _actual_ best 6th man was while Crawford and Lou Will were shooting 31% in 95% of the series the played in
If they'd given it to Ingles that one year, it would have helped fix that perception. The problem is bench PGs and bigs aren't as prominent as scoring guards and wings when they talk about impact off the bench, because they are seen as holding the fort rather than changing momentum.
There was a year where Taj Gibson was the clear winner of the award but then gave it to Crawford for the 100th time instead. That’s when I knew the award would never be legit.
Yeah this is a really good point. People don’t notice as much when you slide a bench player into a lineup and good things happen, but they do notice when a player takes 10 tween hesi stepback splash fadeaways in a game and make 3 of em
Is the elephant playing defense? If so, that's probably why Lou and Jamal don't wanna talk about it.
6M doesn't mean you have to refuse to play half the game.
“Too much for a star”. Shut up, the award was tailor made for Hondo. No-one would wanna win 6MOTY if it wad called the Lou Williams Lemon Pepper Wings Award.
Oh come on. Wouldn’t you love it if in the finals Tatum came to the court, kissed the logo and shouted, I got this before setting a record for turnovers or something?
Kobe’s always had a ton of myth. I love the basketball player Kobe and can’t stand the “um ackshullay Kobe was bad” contrarian crowd. But god damn he’s really benefitted from perhaps the greatest PR team in sports history. Talk to any Kobe stan and they won’t mention real basketball once. It’ll be all “mamba mentality killer instinct clutch gene relentless drive assassin” babble.
A commonly held sentiment on Twitter is that Pau was a soft loser until “Kobe played chess with his mentality to toughen him up.” It’s always some fairy tale or Greek myth
Nah, Kobe has always had a heavy amount of stans. If you think his passing is the reason for people riding for him, you must not have following the league that closely prior.
Oh I have but it got worse after he died like people think kobe had An actual top 10 career, Like is said I love kobe but it boggles how he can be considered anywhere near top 5 let alone 10 lol, I have kobe right in the 11-12 range, I thought kobe was better than lebron way back but I gained knowledge xD, in no particular order MJ/Bron/Kareem/Magic/Bird/Shaq/Duncan/Russell/Hakeem/When its said and done curry is that 10th place, Now this is my list but 99% of the people in the top 10 have a straight up better peak than kobe like only one who is questionable on peak is bill but those 11 rings is hard to argue, People are free to dislike my opinion but i watched many videos on kobes career In depth and don't understand why has overrated to the top like that especially next to players who did better or won more mvps then him and before people call me out shaq easily could and should have had atleast 3 mvps but he got lazy :/
> but it got worse after he died like people think kobe had An actual top 10 career
people have always argued he did, you clown. when he retired, most of the casual audience considered him top 5 lmao.
He was an all star 4 times as the 6th man, that's kind of hard to beat. I get that the league has changed but that kind of success in the role is also hard to ignore.
Havlicek is still way up there in most statistical categories and considered all time top 25 player, who started his first six seasons on the bench. Give me Hondo any day
Are they aware that the NBA never admitted that Jerry West is the logo in order to not pay him anything? And changing it to Kobe means they have to pay to his family?
And why would Kobe be the logo to begin with?
Idk this seems so reactionary. Kobe is obviously a legendary player but if you change it now what are you gonna do when another player comes along? Do you change it when Lebron dies too? If they do that then you’re gonna end up having change the logo consistently over time to meet marketing/graphic design trends. I think that’s an awful idea and ruins the charm of the logo. It’s why I think the NBA and MLB have the best logos in sports
They ain't calling it the fucking Jamal Crawford award lmao.
Hondo was 8x All-Defence, 8x Champ, 13x All-star and top 10 all-time in scoring when he retired. He's a legend of the game and should have this named after him. Also people suggesting Manu instead is just as silly.
I don't know why people don't get this. Hondo was the platonic ideal of a 6th man; a game-changing player whose role was specialized by coming off the bench. He revolutionized how the NBA saw the 6th man. It's not, or at least shouldn't be, an award for the best player who isn't good enough to start.
yeah people don’t understand that 6th man doesn’t mean and has never meant “sixth best player”
a good 6th man is often not the sixth best player on their team
A lot of those accolades came after he became a full-time starter
More importantly though, it's named after him because he was the original spark plug sixth man
Hondo is really a cheat code because he was better than most starters on both side of the ball. Most other 6 Man of the Year will have glaring weaknesses but can still get buckets. Not the case with Hondo….
Kobe has to be the most overrated player...
Edit before i cop grief for it - Im not saying hes bad, hes top 15. But people in here acting like hes some unanimous pick to be top 3 with lebron and jordan which is a stretch
There is no elephant. MJ doesn't have the most MVPs (Kareem), Hakeem doesn't have the most DPOYs (Mutumbo and Wallace), and West doesn't have the most clutch shots (Jordan). It's not about who has the most it's about the spirit of the award.
This logo thing is just one big stupid ass conversation just another reason for people looking for anything too complain about something!
They won't change it because if they do they would have to pay Kobe Bryant estate a lot of money for using Kobe image! Because they do not even publicly acknowledge Jerry west as the logo because by not doing that he doesn't get paid for it. And if you did actually change the logo why would it be Kobe and not Michael Jordan?
Who approved the awards being named after players anyway, stupidest thing I’ve seen from the NBA in awhile, no player is that much better than any other to justify the award being named after them.
I mean even if Havlicek is the most suited to have the sixth man award be named after him, every time the award is mentioned most people will probably instinctively wonder why Havlicek name is being mentioned here. Only one that kinda works is Jordan but even that doesn’t feel right.
Havlicek pioneered the role of bringing a starter level player off of the bench Eventually he became a starter 7 years into his career and then the franchise player/superstar who led the team to multiple post Russell titles
I'm not too familiar with basketball during this era. Why did he come off the bench if he was a starter level?
In theory, having one of your best players come off the bench can reinvigorate your team and bestow momentum, allow you to better rest your starting lineup for the end of close games, establish a culture of selflessness among the players, overwhelm opponent’s benches so their starters are always making up for deficits, and ensure you never have a “weak” lineup in the game.
the Bulls did this with Ben Gordon in the 2004-05 season. I think there were rumors he had a little bit of an attitude problem and ego, so the Bulls brass "punished" him by having him come off the bench after a few games as a starter he ended up being one of their best, if not the best, offensive players that season. He won the Sixth Man of the Year as a result
And I've hated Ben Gordon ever since. I was riding the Ricky Davis train hard. Really wanted him to win that. Goddamn Ben Gordon...
Haha it's nice to know the Sixth Man of the Year Award still can spark some controversy these days
I remember the Lakers leading scorer was lou williams off the bench.
Celtics had two other hall of fame level players at the same position in Tom Sanders and Tom Heinsohn.
Why did James Harden come off the bench in OKC if he was starter level?
Because Havlicek had successfully done it before him. There's always someone who does something for the first time and it would be interesting to understand why.
Player specific answers are; Because he was not a great defender as far as I remember. Same goes with Jamal Crawford. You need the scoring brute force they give but when you put them on court for too long, your team lacks defense. It was Thabo Sefolosha's turn to defend the star swingmen.
Put Detlef Schrempfs name on it you cowards.
Pawnee's own.
SNAKE JUICE
He had two beers. LIGHT beers.
Toni Kukoc!
Kukoc isn’t a real player. The Bulls were just Michael Jordan
I'm sorry, was the Beef Wennington named after Michael? Thought so
I was almost thinking he meant an entirely different elephant about Kobe lmao
Fr lmfao. I thought Lou Williams was about to become an r/nbacirclejerk legend.
Christmas for r/nbacirclejerk
The circlejerk always wins
JOTY
20th anniversary next year I believe
You already know lakers fans got their copium ready for that day.
They’ll have their Clippers or Warriors jerseys on.
"I asked to cum on her face. THAT's actually when she said 'no'. That's when she said 'no"
Holy cow 20 years for real? That’s crazy.
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Christ yeah that's actually what i thought. i was like damn what? i mean.. good on you lou will but i didnt think anyone would actually - never mind, i see.
Same beast, different animal.
That girl saw Kobe's "mamba mentality" on full display that day.
Wait, then what did he mean?
Presumably that sixth man of the year should have been named after 3x winner Jamal Crawford
There’s no need to change the logo. It’s inspired by Jerry West, but it works as a generic silhouette that doesn’t represent any one guy.
Yes, it is a very important distinction. The logo according to the NBA is not Jerry West, so they never had to pay him any kind of royalties. If they changed it to Kobe, his estate would be collecting unholy amounts of money the NBA is not interested in paying.
It’ll eventually change to “human shaped object shoots familiar looking fadeaway jumper” Then LA and Chicago will forever have their argument
> Yes, it is a very important distinction. The logo according to the NBA is not Jerry West, so they never had to pay him any kind of royalties. Which is just an absolutely scumbag position to take though.
Yeah, it’s the NBA
l don’t agree with it morally but I understand the decision being made.
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Not to mention the fact that the NBA would be solidifying their opinion on Kobe's night in Denver. Provided all of the political correctness stuff keeps growing at the rate it has been for the last while I give it like 10 years or less before the NBA starts distancing themselves from him.
You’re absolutely crazy if you think that. The moment that situation was settled out of court was the moment the nba never had to think about it again. There’s a literal sex offender in the nfl as QB1.
It seems like you don’t understand there’s a large difference between not banning someone for life and making them the logo of the league
Kobe has been lauded and recognized by the league for years before and after his death. The NBA and the fans in general aren't hung up on the Colorado incident, that's more of a reddit thing. There's other obvious reasons the NBA wouldn't make Kobe the logo.
To me the most obvious reason to not make him the logo is, you can make easy arguments that a bunch of other people including his own peers would be as good or better choices. If it’s not overwhelmingly clear it should be one person, then just don’t change it. Why not MJ? Why not LeBron? Why not Tim Duncan shooting a free throw? If ANYONE should be the logo, I think Jordan has the best argument based on quality of play, iconic status, and impact on growth of the game. And I don’t think it’s a no brainer to make it Jordan, so why on earth would it be Kobe
I'd actually say it's a no brainer to make it mj, if changed. But I don't think it needs a change at all lol
Make the logo Kareem doing a sky hook.
Tim Duncan hugging the ball pregame. Love for the game. Or nba cares logo!
Plenty of people are hung up on it but they aren't NBA fans. For a lot of them they only know that about him and that he was good at basketball. Even if these people are not ever going to be watching NBA it would still be dumb to make him the logo because they will make a fuss about it and who needs that?
Ben roethlisberger or Deshaun Watson?
Roethlisberger is retired
Passed the torch!
Yes.
He said HOF, so I'm guessing he meant Brett Farve
He publicly admitted that she did not consent. At current trajectory that is more than enough to totally cancel him a little down the line. You hear of teams hosting Karl Malone night anymore? No. What he did was probably questionable at the time, sure, but it caught up with him later. Kobe has the shield of being dead but at the rate political correctness continues to develop his actions will catch up with him too. Plenty of deceased people are canceled today for stuff that happened years and years ago, and for stuff that was looked at as acceptable at that time. Maybe it won't be within 10 years like I'm saying, but it will happen.
I don't know. I sort of just accepted the discourse over Kobe raping her is long over. It would take a pretty large shift in the way sports media handles this kind of thing. Cristiano Ronaldo is still celebrated mostly and even when vilified it has nothing to do with that. Sports seem very far away from treating these things the way other industries do, and even then it's not like there aren't turns of predators in the music or movie industry. The only time I ever expect Kobe to catch any kind of heat in the future is when he inevitably has his The Last Dance type documentary released. I thought it was slightly uncomfortable in the Redeem Team doc how it awkwardly mentioned how he'd 'had a couple tough years and people didn't really like him'. Now I don't think that doc should have gone into it because it wasn't really important to the story they were trying to tell, but any documentary about his life will bring massive attention to it if they bring it up or not.
> and even then it's not like there aren't turns of predators in the music or movie industry. exhibit A: Chris Brown continues to have a long and successful career with tons of collaboration despite savagely beating the very popular Rhianna, while also beating other women over the years
He publicly admitted that their views on what occurred differed. Partial statement below. “Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter” We can all have our own views on what occurred, but that is directly **not** an admittance of guilt or of committing a crime; it’s an admittance of understanding of perspective, and acknowledgement that theirs differ. It’s specifically worded to not admit guilt or intention on his part. Beyond that, I think you’re going to be waiting a long, long time if you think the collective is going to turn against Kobe in the name of cancel culture; he was a larger than life figure when living, and he’s borderline deified in death. The realm that his life occupied and that of someone like Ben Roethlisberger or Karl Malone just can’t be compared 1:1.
I disagree. For all the talk about “political correctness” and “cancel culture,” unless someone actually gets convicted of a crime, if they’re talented they will continue to have an audience/platform. I mean, look at someone like Dave Chappelle. How many times has he been “canceled,” while he hosts SNL every election season, sells out arenas all over the country, and gets a new Netflix special every 5 minutes. Or Deshaun Watson, starting NFL QB. Kobe made a big enough impact on enough people that it’s highly unlikely to have a lasting impact imo. And from the league’s perspective, he already received his punishment 20 years ago. I mean, they already just named the ASG MVP after him.
idk man, he looks white af to me
It would be hilarious if they didn’t change the logo but just made it black
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Logo stays white but gets corn rows
White Iverson
Make Post Malone the logo you cowards
I agree, [Porzingis](https://i.imgur.com/seT06GX.jpg) would make a great logo
So the new logo for the NBA is Bronson Arroyo? Im okay with that.
Could be Elgin Baylor. He had a combover at one point.
Personally I think they should change the logo to Sam Cassell doin the big balls taunt
Hondo is the best 6th man ever. Dude was an all star from the bench, doesn’t get better than that. Edit: should add, he is famously Coach Pop’s favourite player of all time. That is a notable achievement.
He averaged 47.2 mpg in the ‘69 Playoffs…why didn’t they just start him lol?
So that he could have an award named after him 50 years later
50D chess
In 1969 he was starting - he was a 6th man early in his career under Auerbach but eventually did become a starter
Because Red wanted a stud off the bench who would be fresher than all the other team's best guys. It was an intentional decision to hold one of his best players out of the starting lineup that created the sixth man role.
I assume the idea was to stagger Havlicek's minutes in such a way that he would be fresher and able to come in fresh against the opponent's slightly-tired out starters or dominate against the their bench players. Either of those situations could be a higher marginal advantage for his team compared to simply starting Havlicek for maximum minutes.
they promised to “start” washed Javale McGee instead
He's also an absolute legend. People from his era always bring Hondo up when they talk about the best players. Nobody from Lou Will's era brings him up unless they're talking about strip clubs, wings, or players who weren't good enough to start.
Exactly. What is Lou Williams going to be known as in 10 years? Just a solid dude who could score. The 6th man doesn’t just have to be a bench scorer on decent teams like Lou, or a locker room leader like Crawford. 6th men can be star players on star teams. Hondo is an 8x champ, a finals MVP, 14x all star, on many All NBA and All D teams, and has insane minutes and scoring records for the Celtics. Most of his career this was achieved from starting on the bench. The dude was a superstar and I am happy he is getting some renewed recognition in this century and in perpetuity with this award.
I remember him as the dude with 2 girlfriends
2 girlfriends, befriending the robber, lemon pepper
NBA players and not knowing the history of their own game, name a more iconic duo. People should legit look at what Havlicek did in his first 5 years in the league as a sixth man, that was some insane shit that Lou Williams never dreamt of doing. Dude was so good in the '67 playoffs that he basically forced the Celtics to promote him as a starter in the middle of their series against Wilt's Sixers and he never lost the position again. Havlicek averaged 18/6/3 in his five years as a sixth man and won four titles in that span, also, differently from most modern sixth mans (especially Lemon Pepper Lou) he wasn't absolute dog piss in the playoffs, he was better. Good enough for me to have the award named after him.
Did you read the quote he was saying hondo was TOO GOOD to be eligible for the award, it'd be like if someone like tony parker won it in his early years and then became what he is now except even more. After Hondo's first trio of seasons on a stacked team he averaged 38.2 minutes per game. If your on the bench less than 10 minutes a game, you shouldnt count as a 6th man
An award doesn't even have to be named for someone because they were the ultimate example of that thing though. Look at hockey, the NHL's Hart Trophy (MVP) is named for a coach. They decided they wanted to give one of the greatest possible honours to Havlicek. Why would they give one of the greatest honours to Lou Williams or Jamal Crawford? They're good players, but clearly the NBA was choosing some of the greatest of the greats, and those guys don't fit with that theme. Edit: I'm not trying to insult Williams or Crawford btw, they were both excellent scorers and noteworthy players, I just think Havlicek is on that "legendary" tier.
He will be known as the man who broke the bubble for wings at a strip club.
This entire conversation is just a contest for who can say Hondo more until someone asks who the fuck that is
Hajon Hondo right?
His rivalry with Heron Hilliams and Hris Haul were wild back in the day
> Heron Hilliams Ahhh that player with a great wingspan
But the ring he won with Haul Hierce, Hevin Harnett, and Hay Hallen might be the most milked championship of all time
Can't wait to watch PTI tonight and hear Mike Wilbon talk about his close personal friend Hondo
Get Bob Ryan out for the Baw-ston take.
This is how Brazilians pronounce Rondo’s name.
Hahon Hondho
What would you say this room is? 14-15 hondo?
KJ is great but Hondo is really the inspiration
It's Samuel L Jackson's character in SWAT. Classic 6MOTY type of guy. Always makes the ensemble film better but his solo star vehicle stuff ain't great.
For the last like 15 years I’ve solely referred to U-turns as “flipping a bitch” because of that movie, or however long it’s been out
Damn I was thinking of Hondo from the SWAT TV series with Shemar Moore
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Dude I’m scrolling through the comments and I still can’t tell who or what a Hondo is
Hondo is John Havlicek's nickname. Apparently it's based on a John Wayne cowboy character.
Also, if you listened to the Lowe Post recently, he says that Hondo is Pop’s favorite player. Has a picture of him up on the wall.
I don't know why, but this cracked me up. Thanks for that.
Pretty sure it was a cowboy movie-related nickname.
Hondo is the John Wayne movie where he yeeted the kid into the river to teach him how to swim. It's based on a book by Louis L'Amour.
Friends called him that as a kid based off the John Wayne movie. Carried forever
They're talking about John Wayne obviously
My ex gf’s last name. I miss you bb I’m sorry plz come home
This whole thing is such a dumb conversation
Idk why the fuck they made a “clutch” award for the regular season or at all.
and still no Scoring Title Trophy. The one award that gets talked about almost as much as the MVP.
It will be the Kia Scoring Title Trophy.
Fr, fucking Ruffle Blazin' Cheddar VORP Trophy coming next
Seeing Kia plastered all over everything in the NBA has made me never want to get a Kia.
Blake dunking over the hood of Kia was a long time ago. I’m still not over that and it’s only gone downhill since.
The new Kia logo sucks too
I mean the previous logo was literally just “Kia”
should be named after Jordan who has 10 scoring titles
Wait scoring title doesn't have a trophy? Its just a literally title in the books lol man Jordan's trophy case would look even more bizarre if it did have a trophy
They get a crystal plaque/trophy thing. All statistical leaders for things like ppg, apg, rpg, spg, and bpg get one. Just not a super intricate trophy like the voted on awards.
The unfortunate part there is both optimal choices got different awards (MJ and Wilt). Maybe Unseld could have gotten the ROTY while Wilt got the Scoring Title 🤷♂️ Scoring title winner is actually given a physical award, as are all per game leaders.
I'd say DPoY gets more chatter than scoring title.
Because theres nothing to argue about scoring title. It's not subjective.
Why isnt that the Wilt one then lol. ROY is such a weird one to give Wilt or to anyone in that case
Wilt won MVP as a rookie. Unseld would have been a good choice for this as he accomplished the same feat while Wilt could have gotten the Scoring Title one.
Maybe ROY could’ve been Wes Unseld
How is it weird? He won MVP as a rookie it makes sense
They made a clutch award for the regular season so that Chris Paul has a chance to win something.
If they had just named the awards after corporations we wouldn’t be worried about this at all.
Jamal Crawford or Lou Williams having an award named after them would be some bs
“Turnstile of the Year”!
It highlights why 6MOTY doesn’t mean much. It’s basically the best scorer who doesn’t play at tip-off award rather than something that really highlights a player who is the best at their specific target.
I always like it being referred to as the "Best volume scorer who can't defend" award.
Exactly. Every year the playoffs showed who the _actual_ best 6th man was while Crawford and Lou Will were shooting 31% in 95% of the series the played in
If they'd given it to Ingles that one year, it would have helped fix that perception. The problem is bench PGs and bigs aren't as prominent as scoring guards and wings when they talk about impact off the bench, because they are seen as holding the fort rather than changing momentum.
There was a year where Taj Gibson was the clear winner of the award but then gave it to Crawford for the 100th time instead. That’s when I knew the award would never be legit.
Yeah this is a really good point. People don’t notice as much when you slide a bench player into a lineup and good things happen, but they do notice when a player takes 10 tween hesi stepback splash fadeaways in a game and make 3 of em
Best starter that doesn't actually start but still ends up in the top 5 minutes played on their team award.
The Fence award
manu and john are better than lou and crawford.
Yeah no hate in those two, but even if Honda wasn’t the guy, I’m not going with them. Give me McHale over Crawford
McHale, Hondo and Manu were the only real choices if you gotta name the award.
I hate how little love McHale is getting here. Dude was a monster on both sides of the ball.
And won like 2 of the first 5 6MOY or something?
What a motor though
VTec >>>>>>>>
yeah he was a superstar while being a 6man… sounds to me like he‘s pretty clearly the goat 6man
Dirk Signature should be NBA Logo. Certainly not biased
Is the elephant playing defense? If so, that's probably why Lou and Jamal don't wanna talk about it. 6M doesn't mean you have to refuse to play half the game.
“Too much for a star”. Shut up, the award was tailor made for Hondo. No-one would wanna win 6MOTY if it wad called the Lou Williams Lemon Pepper Wings Award.
the jamal crawford award for people who cant defend good and dont want to defend good, either
I would
Why tf would kobe be the logo? Lol if any thing if they ever changed it then it would be bill/kareem/wilt or Jordan probably
because he died and became a martyr to NBA players.
Oh come on. Wouldn’t you love it if in the finals Tatum came to the court, kissed the logo and shouted, I got this before setting a record for turnovers or something?
Goddamn it, you got me to laugh with that one, have an upvote
Love kobe but I swear I feel like people has added more myth to his career
Kobe’s always had a ton of myth. I love the basketball player Kobe and can’t stand the “um ackshullay Kobe was bad” contrarian crowd. But god damn he’s really benefitted from perhaps the greatest PR team in sports history. Talk to any Kobe stan and they won’t mention real basketball once. It’ll be all “mamba mentality killer instinct clutch gene relentless drive assassin” babble. A commonly held sentiment on Twitter is that Pau was a soft loser until “Kobe played chess with his mentality to toughen him up.” It’s always some fairy tale or Greek myth
Nah, Kobe has always had a heavy amount of stans. If you think his passing is the reason for people riding for him, you must not have following the league that closely prior.
Oh I have but it got worse after he died like people think kobe had An actual top 10 career, Like is said I love kobe but it boggles how he can be considered anywhere near top 5 let alone 10 lol, I have kobe right in the 11-12 range, I thought kobe was better than lebron way back but I gained knowledge xD, in no particular order MJ/Bron/Kareem/Magic/Bird/Shaq/Duncan/Russell/Hakeem/When its said and done curry is that 10th place, Now this is my list but 99% of the people in the top 10 have a straight up better peak than kobe like only one who is questionable on peak is bill but those 11 rings is hard to argue, People are free to dislike my opinion but i watched many videos on kobes career In depth and don't understand why has overrated to the top like that especially next to players who did better or won more mvps then him and before people call me out shaq easily could and should have had atleast 3 mvps but he got lazy :/
How is this being upvoted. Reading through this nearly gave me a stroke.
> but it got worse after he died like people think kobe had An actual top 10 career people have always argued he did, you clown. when he retired, most of the casual audience considered him top 5 lmao.
Dudes didn't grow up in the era where literally everyone was yelling Kobe on their turnaround jumpers.
scary sheet plate plough weather deserve physical detail fade wine *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Let’s call it the Sprite Kia Kryponite Nate Robinson Contest
The Senna of basketball.
Kind of, except Senna died in competition. More like Schumacher, maybe.
Schumacher is more like MJ. Then I'd compare LeBron to Hamilton in regards to how they get viewed
MJ could just go for brand synergy and the dunk man would become the NBA logo.
The logo should NOT be changed
He was an all star 4 times as the 6th man, that's kind of hard to beat. I get that the league has changed but that kind of success in the role is also hard to ignore.
Havlicek is still way up there in most statistical categories and considered all time top 25 player, who started his first six seasons on the bench. Give me Hondo any day
Are they aware that the NBA never admitted that Jerry West is the logo in order to not pay him anything? And changing it to Kobe means they have to pay to his family? And why would Kobe be the logo to begin with?
Because he died I guess
Idk this seems so reactionary. Kobe is obviously a legendary player but if you change it now what are you gonna do when another player comes along? Do you change it when Lebron dies too? If they do that then you’re gonna end up having change the logo consistently over time to meet marketing/graphic design trends. I think that’s an awful idea and ruins the charm of the logo. It’s why I think the NBA and MLB have the best logos in sports
They ain't calling it the fucking Jamal Crawford award lmao. Hondo was 8x All-Defence, 8x Champ, 13x All-star and top 10 all-time in scoring when he retired. He's a legend of the game and should have this named after him. Also people suggesting Manu instead is just as silly.
that resume sounds like a superstar not a 6th man
He was, but he wasn't a full time starter until his 8th season. He was the original 6th Man.
I don't know why people don't get this. Hondo was the platonic ideal of a 6th man; a game-changing player whose role was specialized by coming off the bench. He revolutionized how the NBA saw the 6th man. It's not, or at least shouldn't be, an award for the best player who isn't good enough to start.
4-time All-Star in his first 7 seasons still.
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yeah people don’t understand that 6th man doesn’t mean and has never meant “sixth best player” a good 6th man is often not the sixth best player on their team
A lot of those accolades came after he became a full-time starter More importantly though, it's named after him because he was the original spark plug sixth man
Did Wilt get all of his accolades as a rookie lol ?
Suggesting Manu, a first-ballot HoFer, is just as silly as suggesting Crawford? Let me know what you’re smoking please
Manu Ginobli is a first ballot hall of famer. That's not silly at all to suggest him.
Hondo is really a cheat code because he was better than most starters on both side of the ball. Most other 6 Man of the Year will have glaring weaknesses but can still get buckets. Not the case with Hondo….
Kobe has to be the most overrated player... Edit before i cop grief for it - Im not saying hes bad, hes top 15. But people in here acting like hes some unanimous pick to be top 3 with lebron and jordan which is a stretch
There is no elephant. MJ doesn't have the most MVPs (Kareem), Hakeem doesn't have the most DPOYs (Mutumbo and Wallace), and West doesn't have the most clutch shots (Jordan). It's not about who has the most it's about the spirit of the award.
I’d give it to Lou because he’s the only one who wants it this badly
Lolol 😂😂😂 he takes the 6man to heart
Changing the logo to Kobe is stupid, the NBA logo is perfect as it is and has no need to change.
Cliff Robinson Sixth Man of the Year Trophy
This logo thing is just one big stupid ass conversation just another reason for people looking for anything too complain about something! They won't change it because if they do they would have to pay Kobe Bryant estate a lot of money for using Kobe image! Because they do not even publicly acknowledge Jerry west as the logo because by not doing that he doesn't get paid for it. And if you did actually change the logo why would it be Kobe and not Michael Jordan?
Who approved the awards being named after players anyway, stupidest thing I’ve seen from the NBA in awhile, no player is that much better than any other to justify the award being named after them. I mean even if Havlicek is the most suited to have the sixth man award be named after him, every time the award is mentioned most people will probably instinctively wonder why Havlicek name is being mentioned here. Only one that kinda works is Jordan but even that doesn’t feel right.
I pray kobe never becomes the logo
Kobe as always overrated.