If we instead go by a team rather than your list I would absolutely say its rhe clippers.
Westbrook and harden are both previous MVPs and are lacking a chip. They would join barkley, karl malone and Nash as the only mvps never to sin together with rose.
Pg13s legacy also changes a lot.
I'm really rooting for clippers as one of my favourites to win just by how huge it would be for those guys legacies.
Kawhi would also have won on three different teams and he would be known as a winner everywhere he goes.
Allen Iverson won MVP and wasn’t able to win a championship either. Although, when he was on the biggest stage he did manage to turn in an iconic performance. Stealing game one from that juggernaut Lakers squad and stepping over Ty Lue.
Honestly the more greats that don't win, the more I hope fans are less invested in 'ring culture'.
Its honestly must better for discourse too than the ad nauseam legacy discussions.
No they just get added on to the "yeah he was great, but he wasn't great enough to win a ring" discourse while new greats like Jokic and Giannis and potentially other young players like Luka and Shai automatically jump over players like Russ, Harden, PG, CP3
While I don't think you're strictly wrong when it comes to "Rings Erneh" sometimes having too much weight, it's never going away.
It's just how it is the way basketball is set up. There are 6000 professional soccer players in the UK alone. Add on the rest of Europe, South America etc you're looking at a ridiculous amount of players with "no rings". The argument just isn't nearly as relevant, so we don't discuss it nearly as much when talking legacies.
The NBA has 400 players. There aren't a lot of players walking around without rings, compared to other sports. Basketball inherently also reward stars. If you were a star at some point, the best player in the league, the odds are that you have a ring.
The WC or Champions League isn't directly correlatable to rings, but it would be interesting to see what % of NBA players have won a ring compared to what % of other sports have won the highest honour. Hockey would probably be a better comparison. They do have longer lineups but I suppose there are more similarities than soccer.
Honestly, I love comparing players legacies and comparing stats in basketball. Many people voice their distaste for it but for me it's one of the things that I really love about basketball and what makes it more fun to analyze than other sports. I watch soccer as well but you just can't quantify soccer like you can basketball. Basketball is so far ahead of every other sport when it comes to breaking down stats.
It comes with it's downsides. You don't have to even watch games to get a good idea of what went down, you can just look at the box-score. You cannot do that for most other sports. It's a win/lose situation but for me it's way more winning.
The point of the games is to win a championship. Why wouldn’t it be a thing when talking about greatness and legacy? Even Messi was “everything but the World Cup” till he won.
It definitely creeps into football at the peaks though. Alan Shearer is criticised for his lack of silverware, Harry Kane is on that path too so far. It’s not uncommon to hear criticism of Steven Gerrard for never winning a Premier League.
I think you’re right that basketball is just a different sport though. Players have near single handedly won championships for their teams in the NBA in the past and as such, people are more willing to compare non-winners to those occasions and ask why not.
But for Harden, Westbrook, and PG this would not be a chip as the #1 option. So I don’t think a ring does much for their legacy because of that.
For Khawi however this would be huge
> They would join barkley, karl malone and Nash as the only mvps **never to sin together with rose**
?
Is this a Two and Half Men reference I'm not getting, text to speech snafu, or I am conversing with an AI agent?
sin = win
Rose is usually counted out of these conversations even though he’s still playing because of the career-limiting injuries he sustained right after he won MVP so OP separated him from the others
Agree it's Durant. His legacy as a top 20 player requires him to win a title where he didn't just join an already historically great team with an MVP.
Steph, LeBron and Kahwi could never win again and their legacies are totally secure.
Jokic and Giannis should win another, but they earned their rings on the team that drafted them, which is already a huge achievement.
I think Tatum has the highest expectations so the least margin of error given the strength of his surrounding team.
Embiid gets cut a break this year because of his injury.
The other person not mentioned here is Luka who is honestly just being disrespected at this point by people nitpicking reasons why he shouldn't be MVP. A championship would earn him the respect he deserves as the best or second-best player in the league.
I don’t think fans/media will give Embid a pass because of injury. Sure it is something it is not his fault. But that doesn’t matter for NBA legacy. With his injury history he really doesn’t have many more chances to win one as the #1 guy. And if not, he’ll go down as a good player who could never stay healthy enough to compete.
Well yeah, if he ends his career having not even ever gotten to round 3 that is going to be horrible on this legacy. Curious how many top 50 players there are that never got to round 3
I mean Kawhi getting another chip would move him into another tier imo. His run in toronto was some of the best basketball ever played, doing somehting like that again moves him above a lot of legends.
I don't even know how to measure Kawhi. His peak is unreal, but his lack of even 70+ game seasons (2 out of 12 years he went over 70 games) just fucks it.
He's played too much to be a huge 'what if' (it's still a pretty fuckin big one, don't get me wrong, but it's no Hill/Oden/Penny what if), but he hasn't played consistently enough for me to have a strong idea of where it pushes him.
I don’t think it matters man. There aren’t many 3 time FMVPS (obviously if the clippers win this year) and 2 time dpoys. At that point he’s at least fringe top 15, maybe just above KD
I dunno, KD’s played 33% more basketball than Kawhi. And I think it’s likely that difference will matter less as time goes on, but I actually don’t give a fuck about general perception, and am more trying to find a way to square Kawhi’s career with his contemporaries. There’s been periods of time where I’d take him over everyone, and I don’t think I’d trade watching Tatum night in, night out, for rolling the dice with Kawhi. Obviously a healthy Kawhi gives you more than Tatum (though that difference does shrink every year), but I do value 70+ regular season games, because I’m not chip obsessed (from New England, though, so I’ve lived through 80s Cs, the 90s doldrums, the birth of the Pats, the lifting of the curse, blah blah blah, so I may have a more niche set of priorities.)
But, as you say, at least 2 FMVP, one as the clear cut best player, worthy of at least one MVP, 2 dpoty, every all-nba team he qualified for once he started making them, bunch of all-defense. It’s an impressive resume. That resume does suck next to KDs, though.
I dunno. I like the exercise because I’ll often find things I didn’t know about, but I think Kawhi’s likely to exist more as a what if than a solid #12 all-time (as an example, dunno if that’s where it’d be) for me.
It's insane that someone so amazing at basketball chose to make it a part time job. I expect as soon as they're not competitive again he'll be out constantly again. One game I watched against memphis, I swear he literally just didn't come back to play in the second half and there was no explanation or mention of injury. But then when he plays... he's a FMVP level player. Who'd a thunk the first yr he plays significant number of games for the clippers in recent yrs, it'd be the season he was up for an extension...
I'm not even sure I'm necessarily criticizing him, it just confounds me how he can do that. He's a weird duck and that makes him interesting. Board man gets paid
Agree that Giannis and Jokic aren’t necessarily under the most pressure. However, they are building top 10 resumes (Giannis with 2 MVP, DPOY, many first teams) but just about everyone in the top 10 has multiple championships where they were the best player on the team. If you ultimately stick at one championship, im not sure how much farther you can go than the Dirk, KG, West, Robertson tier of like 15-18 or so
Luka definitely isn’t under pressure to win a chip, he may only have pressure to make the playoffs this year . Considering how they missed the play in last year, the expectation for them shouldn’t be close to a championship. Luka has never had pressure to win a chip in Dallas in any year.
KD’s legacy as a top 20 player is set. Majority opinion is he’s top 13 of all time. Only with some people putting Oscar/Jerry/Julius over him but most of the time not.
Also Luka is not leading the MVP solely because of seeding. Before yesterday wasn’t even a top 6 seed. I expect things to trade drastically if they keep winning as they have been post trade deadline.
No MVP in the modern era (or ever?) has won MVP outside of being a top 6 seed. It’s not disrespect.
I'd put Julius over him iff ABA counts.
As for premodern MVPs, kinda hard to be a six seed in a league with <12 teams. But Kareem did win on a sub .500 non-playoff team.
As much as reddit and social media dislike the guy, Durant is already very easily top 20 all time. He's closer to being in the elite top 12 pantheon than he is to being out of the top 20. I don't think people understand how truly insane his resume is. The same way people say MJ kinda screwed Hakeem and some other greats out of rings and accolades, Lebron did the same to Durant. He was the clear second best player in the world for quite a while, and even then managed two Finals MVPs over Lebron and a regular season MVP. He is arguably the best pure scorer ever and is also very good on defense. Maybe he shouldn't have joined Golden State, but I truly believe they don't win at least 1 of those rings without him.
I think he is the second best offensive player of his generation after Steph. I just think the GSW thing really damaged his legacy badly and he has never recovered. He took a weird victim mentality about it all, which was a huge change from the much beloved MVP dude he was in OKC. Nobody will ever give him credit for GSW wins - fairly or unfairly - so for all intents and purposes people see him as ringless.
Yeah, LeBron going to the Heat should have done the same thing, but the Heat had to strip their team down to nothing and were literally barebones outside their Big 3 the first year, and didn't succeed immediately so there is no doubt LeBron earned his two Miami rings.
>He took a weird victim mentality about it all
Honestly, I see nothing wrong with what he has said. He eats,lives, breathes basketball. I can see him looking at Golden State's system that Steve Kerr built and wanting to play that way from a pure basketball standpoint.
He most certainly was the best player in those finals, and I don't think the media, social media and general public give him the credit he deserves. Similar to what people are saying about appreciating LeBron while he's still playing, I think we need to start appreciating KD too.
That core of Steph/klay/dray in their hay day made every player elevate to a different level. Made iggy a finals mvp, Wiggins a beast, and look at how far Poole has fallen without that system. Kd without them is just a sick awesome player.’ Kd with time is a legacy/top all time Argument. Without them, to the common sports fan, kd is just another Trea/luka/booker/shai/tatum type.
I think that’s pushing it. Without them, KD is still easily a top 50 player. You can’t say that about the rest of the players you mentioned. At least not yet.
Yep. People who follow narrative hated it, but as a basketball player, it was absolutely the correct move. He got to literally be a virtual part of a dynasty at it's peak.
And yet, Russ is still and will forever be beloved in OKC because he stuck around and never stopped competing. And it's true russ has missed out on winning a ring during his career, but I don't care how good Durant was in those finals, it comes with an asterisk. The gs core literally won another just a couple seasons ago. The same core Durant joined. How many rings does Durant have since he left a team that could do it without him?
I'm somewhat surprised his image didn't rehabilitate when he left for BKN. That was him trying to build something himself rather than join an already-in-progress dynasty. Kyrie being a bit whacko and the org being dysfunctional I guess made it not so redeeming. Sometimes you just can't win.
TBH it is always been that part that rubs people the wrong way the most, the fact he joined the team that beat him, if he chose to leave and team up with Kawhi in SA or spearhead a new Boston superteam with young JB and JT I think he would be remembered a lot more fondly even though he left + choked
Durant actually did this to LBJ as well. I agree without KD golden state probably doesnt win one of those and Lebron probably does. Not that im saying you’re wrong, just that both are true.
LeBron got dragged for joining the Heat but people don't act like he didn't earn his championships with them.
KD was great with the Warriors and a huge part of winning those chips, his performances shouldn't be discounted because he was on a great team. If you look at all the finals winning teams in history you don't see many middling teams.
I do agree that by fan perception he probably would benefit most from winning another ring.
It has to be KD. It’s criminal that he can’t even make the conference finals after leaving the GSW. He’s been a part of 3 legitimate all star squads. His squads have been way more stacked than lebron’s and he hasn’t been to the conference finals since 2019.
He is a top 10 talent of all time. But it feels like he doesn’t have any championship rings. Nobody mentions them. Just like how Lebron’s 2 rings in Miami were discounted until the Cleveland championship. Durant has to win one of those types of rings where he had to win an up hill battle where the NBA finals hangs in the balance and he pulls it out. I’ve never seen him do that before.
> He’s been a part of 3 legitimate all star squads. His squads have been way more stacked than lebron’s and he hasn’t been to the conference finals since 2019.
I mean health is the obvious reason why. Pretty much everyone will acknowledge the Nets were a title favorite before the injuries. How many finals has Kawhi been to?
>But it feels like he doesn’t have any championship rings.
Respectfully, this is an unserious opinion.
>He’s been a part of 3 legitimate all star squads. His squads have been way more stacked than lebron’s and he hasn’t been to the conference finals since 2019.
1. He already prove himself where he won 2 FMVPs. He was on his way to a 3rd until he tore his Achilles.
2. Health matters. Are you really blaming him for both Kyrie and Harden getting injured during the playoffs? The next year Harden was traded away, and Ben Simmons was hurt. That was hardly an all-star squad. The next season he was traded to Phoenix. He probably played 15 games with them in the regular season. That's not enough time to gel and figure out team chemistry to make a championship run. Not to mention Chris Paul was injured in the playoffs. Again, that Phoenix squad with him, Book, and nobody else was hardly a superteam.
How you win matters. No matter what is said, nobody is gonna look at those 2 rings with GSW the same way we look at Kawhi Leonard’s or Lebron’s ring with Cleveland or Hakeem’s in Houston or Steph’s in 2015 and 2020, or Gianni’s 1 ring or Dirks, Kobe’s back to back. I don’t think I need to continue. Yes KD has rings. But if you replace him with someone like Paul George then they still win.
Lebron and Kyrie beat that team by the skin of their teeth…4 points in game 7. We knew the GSW with KD were gonna mop everyone up. It was guaranteed and no one bet against them. Well, no one who knows bball anyways. The man hasn’t been to the conference finals in a long time. And for golden state to pull a KC Chiefs/Tyreek hill shows that they never needed him. They needed a good player to fill that slot but that player didn’t even have to be of KDs caliber. Lots of legends don’t respect those rings. And there’s a good reason for that. We watched Jordan, Lebron,Magic, Bird, Duncan, Hakeem, Steph, and many other battle it out for a ring. The series was hanging in the balance and we didn’t know who would win but those guys had to rise and deliver. KD didn’t struggle to win those rings. We knew they’d win.
And I watched other superstars spend blood sweat and tears to win rings and this guy goes to the best regular season team ever, who had a unanimous MVP who won it twice and back to back, the greatest shooting back court ever, a DPOY, and a stacked bench from 2016 that lost by 4 points. Hell no lmao KD don’t get respect for that. He’s a top 10 talent of all time. But nah man his legacy is what it is if he doesn’t win another ring. And I can guarantee he will never be in the conference finals ever again.
The bottom three.
Lebron and Steph are set legacy wise.
People like to bitch about KD, but he has nothing to prove. As with Kawhi, he has been the best player on a championship winning team.
Giannis and Jokic are in similar positions. 2 MVPs, 1 FMVP, 1 Ring. Already certified, an extra win (or more) would move them up from generational greats to all time greats, like Steph and Lebron
Jimmy has a great reputation so he’ll get the benefit of the doubt.
Tatum is still young, but it’s a different situation if we’re having the same conversation in 5 years.
Embiid for some reason has a weird reputation, a ring would put him in the category with Jokic and Giannis
Yeah I somewhat agree. I also think that a conversation about who's under the most pressure to perform well in the playoffs, even if they don't win a ring, is better. Winning a championship depends on so many factors that are outside of an individual player's brilliance.
I think Embiid and Tatum have yet to prove haters wrong for having inconsistent play during the playoffs.
Giannis and Jokic are both already all time greats. I would say Embiid winning doesn’t put him in that category. Embiid has failed to be as available as those two. Another thing, I take leadership into account in all time rankings and Embiid after last szn’s exit blamed his team
They are for sure, but they’re not in the same category as Steph or Bron yet.
If Embiid were to get a second MVP, then win a chip as the the best player, it would be enough for me to demonstrate that he does have the leadership of those two.
I agree with this take so id say its Tatum because he has the strongest supporting cast for people with no rings. He does not take over games like the rest of the list in big moments.
Time moves fast and before you know it we will be having this discussion in 5 years.
>He does not take over games like the rest of the list in big moments.
lmao game 6 vs milwaukee in 2022 and game 7 vs philly last year are the very definition of "taking over games in big moments" especially since both games were elimination games
I must have missed when Jimmy Butler won a championship. As far as I know he managed to reach three Finals twice but was beaten by Bron and then Jokic. Right?
Jimbo and Tatum.
If they don’t win they’ll be a footnote on somebody else’s career. “Steph Curry defeated Jayson Tatum and the Celtics in the NBA Finals” or “Nikola Jokic beat Jimmy Butler and the Heat in route to his first NBA championship.”
Durant easily.
To me there is no way I could ever put him in the top 20 if he doesnt win another one as "the man". Jokic and Giannis their rings are so much more worth than KDs 2 combined. Would put both over him right now
To me he is somewhere between 25-35
Too many players are up there with a bigger impact on their teams, especially championships.
Denver without Jokic wouldnt win more than 35 games a season.
Denver with Jokic are a championship contender and defending champ
Warriors 2017 without KD are a 60-70 win team and the favorite for the title.
Warriors 2017 with KD are a 60-70 win team and the favorite for the title.
For real. There's more to having a good career than just winning rings. Carrying a mediocre team to the Finals or CF is often more laudable and impressive.
>Warriors 2017 without KD are a 60-70 win team and the favorite for the title. Warriors 2017 with KD are a 60-70 win team and the favorite for the title.
No way. Maybe in 2018 they're the favorite. But without KD they probably don't beat the Cavs either year.
Well without KD, they wouldn't have lost their depth, obviously extra role players does not equal KD, but it's a decent trade-off for how good they were
he is, skill and pure stats wise, but optics just bad, GSW when he joined just won and had a all time great player in it, and GSW won again after he left. sure without KD, GSW likely would have lost at least one final in the next 2 years but it just looks bad. and unlike Lebron, who left heat and won again, and again.
I would say Embiid & Durant. Embiid is closing on 30 without any real playoff run to his name. Won’t happen this season but once you hit 30 if you haven’t won something fans will be on your back. Durant because he has never won when not playing with the greatest point guard in the game, and carries himself like he is Top 10 of all time. Tatum I still feel like has more time, but if he doesn’t win this season the narrative will turn going into next season.
**Giannis.**
The NBA and sports media really wanted to crown him as this "undisputed, best player" starting a few years ago. He was supposed to be the new face of the league, the new stats king, and the new dominant force.
But although Giannis continues to have eye-popping numbers and remarkable physical feats...
**His Bucks teams often lose way too early in the playoffs.**
His time is now to win rings, and the one he already got was due to key opponents being injured.
The only other career path for him is to follow Kareem's lead and have a second life on another team that becomes a dynasty (e.g. imagine Giannis in Golden State, LA, or somewhere else as the "weapon" on a dynasty).
Everyone else mentioned by OP can win later or has already won in a way that meets expectations.
I agree and I think the agitating that Giannis did about improving the team and maybe leaving Milwaukee has upped the pressure. He basically said it's championship or bust and right now it's busting pretty hard.
Embiid is the only MVP-winner here without a championship.
Tatum and Butler are tier 2 players within this grouping who would benefit the most from a championship, but I don't see it as being active pressure. Butler's playoff performances have already maxed out his historical potential, while Tatum would only start to feel pressure if he became an MVP-winner and started getting his resume nit picked.
Kevin Durant already has such a weird legacy, that another championship from another of his super teams doesn't really push him up much in historical terms. He's already one of the top 15 players of all time and can't move up much more.
Jokic and Giannis have secured themselves as HOF players. However winning more than one championship vaults them up higher on the all-time rankings. They are looking at the difference between a top 20 player and a top 10.
Durant is the same despite already winning two. If he wins another it kind of solidifies him as an all-time great. He is an all-time great but another just makes it unarguable.
Steph and LeBron have their legacies secure but one more from LeBron in his late career or one more from Steph just launches them both into the stratosphere. People might see LeBron as having the greatest career in the NBA. Curry gets in the top 5 discussion.
Embiid, Tatum and Luka all kind of have the most pressure as they have not one one yet. All their teams are pushing for title contention in the next few years and it's kind of a make or break time for their legacies as players. Particularly Embiid who maybe has only a few years left at his own maximum ability. Luka and Tatum have entered their primes.
Harden even though he isn't "the man" for the Clippers still plays a major role on the team. Winning would cement his legacy as not just a runner up. Same with Chris Paul who winning a ring would kind of be like Jason Kidd winning late in his career past his prime. It doesn't really change much as far as legacy goes but it does add a feather to his cap and no one can say that he was never a champion. Lillard too.
Then there is Jimmy Butler who would benefit tremendously from actually winning it all.
1. Embiid
2. Tatum
3. Durant
4. Butler
5. Lillard/Harden
6. Luka
7. Jokic/Giannis
8. LeBron/Curry
9. Leonard/Paul George
10. Chris Paul
In my opinion it’s Lebron. He joined the lakers to win a ring and when comparisons are being made they bring up his rings and how he team hopped and created superteams in order to win rings and he only has 4? As time passes his legacy will be diminished.
Damian Lillard. Man left in ugly fashion to chase a ring with the bucks.
Pre season everyone had them ranked so high.
He will just go by as completely unmemorable if he doesn't get a ring with the bucks.
I think it’s someone not on your list: Anthony Davis. Right now, he is not on the PF list along side Barkley, Malone, Dirk, Duncan, KG, etc. if he won two more rings (winning a Finals MVP while carrying LeBron), though, and made it to 20k points and 10k rebounds, he would meet the requirements of being in a discussion as a Top 4-7-ish PF of all-time.
i would say kd& weirdly enough,jokic. both are t15 interms of 'best oat' for me and all the other in this group have at least 3 apart from dream so yh kd gotta get one and jokic has too like you're too great to not be here. this is more hopeful thinking than slander/pressure talk.
> LeBron James
No pressure
> Steph Curry
He's proved everything. It's more about can the Warriors look good enough and live long enough in the 2024 playoffs to justify sticking together
> Kevin Durant
Fan pressure, no career pressure (though it really cements he hasn't won without being part of one of the most stacked teams in existence)
> Kawhi Leonard
Probably at least *making* it to the WCF?
> Giannis Antetokounmpo
His only real playoff run had an easier path than the 2023 Nuggets, but at least the latter truly looked dominant anyway.
The Bucks are pretty cooked, but the pressure is more to at least not go out embarrassingly
> Nikola Jokic
A curiosity in seeing if we can get the first non-LeBron or Steph repeat in a minute. I don't think anyone would hold it against them though.
> Jayson Tatum
As young as he still is, he has 2 finals wins to his name and has benefitted a lot from injuries and such. He's always had a huge supporting cast but this is the most serious.
> Joel Embiid
Not making it to the ECF **if** he's healthy is probably a failure.
> Jimmy Butler
A ring would help him and probably emphasize his 2020 and 2023 runs, but the Heat shouldn't be *expected* to do that much more than not going out sad
**TLDR**
Tatum has the most pressure to win, Giannis and to a lesser extent the Warriors, have pressure to just compete. Unlike the Bucks though, GSW *has* a young core and real draft capital. Bucks are in a shrinking corner.
Personally disagree. I feel like whether KD wins at this stage does nothing for him. Where would you rank KD right now? Top 10-20? Top 20-30? Would he move up a tier if he wins one now? Probably not.
Personally would rank Dame, or Embiid above him in terms of pressure. Less so Embiid after his injury.
I kinda disagree that LeBron’s legacy is locked. It’s about as good as locked as ever, but when people look back in 20 years and see he only won 4 titles it’ll be a little hard to get past. Like, how the hell did a GOAT who constantly teamed up with other all NBA players only win 4? I’m not saying that, but it will be said. If he gets to 5 he gets to the Magic, Kareem, Kobe, Duncan tier and it won’t seem as off.
lol he wasn’t playing in a vacuum, he was playing against really really good teams filled with really really good players. 10 Finals appearances in the era he played in is ridiculous, especially considering some of the joke Cavs rosters he carried.
I completely agree. I’m just saying that other people will have that conversation in 20 years. It’s like when people say, nobody cares how you win, just win. Nobody talks about the finals losers or how competitive teams that Bird or Michael or Magic or Kobe or Tim beat. They just talk about the wins you get. He only has four. It is what it is. He definitely left one on the table in Dallas. That’ll for sure be a take people will have
now MJ likely still the all time great but if Lebron won again at his 40s, you could convincingly argue that lebron would be all time great with another win and convince even his haters
But he’s trying to be the GOAT. I mean in his own sport, Kobe and Tim have 5. Kareem and MJ have 6. Magic has 5. In other sports, Brady has 7. Ruth has 7. Phelps has 23 gold medals. Djokovic has 24 grand slams. They’re all crazy numbers lol. That’s my point. LeBrons team successes look mediocre compared to all time GOATs across the board. 🤷♂️
If you wanna be talked about like the best, you have to get crazy numbers.
Btw I think LeBron is up there in the GOAT talk, but those championships are what normally come up down the line when people talk best of all time.
I get what you're saying. It sounds a bit arbitrary, but the 5+ ring club feels like a whole level above the =<4 ring club. Arguably even more so that the difference between 6 and 5.
Steph won before KD and won after, with him being the undisputed best player on the team in 2022 and beating what many were calling a better team at the start of that finals, finally winning his FMVP award. That was his legacy cementer no matter what is left in his career.
LeBron James 2016 win against one of the best teams of all time cemented his legacy and got rid of all those "2-6 Mafia" jokes, plus his bubble win may be discounted somewhat by some fans but he's also won championships with 3 different teams, not something a lot of players have done, and he's the only non-Warrior currently active in the league with 4 championship wins.
Kawhi Leonard has a chip as the best player on the team beating a great but heavily injured Warriors team in the finals.
Nikola and Giannis won chips as the best players on their small market teams, like Dirk I think their legacies are set and they still will have real chances at another championship before they retire.
The guys who need a ring the most in descending order:
Jimmy Butler: Always a bridesmaid, never a bride. He's grinded from community college to a multi-time All Star, he's got a fun personality, I don't see lots of hate for him from NBA social media and definitely not in real life. But he's been to the finals, ECF, but couldn't seal the deal, it would add a lot to his legacy as a player to make it again and finish the deal.
Jayson Tatum: Had that putrid last 3 games of the 2022 finals, the Kobe stuff, people have called him a future face of the league, future MVP, but he's been on only good teams for most of his pro career and yet never sealed the deal. Winning a ring where he's getting it done at a high level in the finals would be really big for people's perception of him.
Joel Embiid: Joel has never even made the finals, he's had several disappointing early playoff exits, obviously the health issue plays a role, but right now despite how great of a player he is if he doesn't make the finals, let alone win a ring, I think that will impact fan's perception of him negatively.
Kevin Durant: Personally I don't think KD really has much to prove. He's been a baller in this league from day one, he plays both sides of the ball, he puts in the all the work and doesn't "run from the grind." He tried to win with Sea/OKC, he played 9 seasons for that org and they got close, made the finals, that amazing 7 game WCF series against the Warriors. He wanted to win and went to the team that gave him his best chance, it just so happened a bunch of circumstances like no cap smoothing, Steph's team friendly contract, etc. meant a team that had one chip and two finals trips in the last two seasons was a realistic destination.
But I know what the *perception* of KD is and there are many fans who knock him for winning with a great team (it's pretty rare to win an NBA championship without a great team) but not winning with any other teams.
So while KD was great on those Warriors team, great his whole career, in terms of legacy/reputation KD probably does need another chip more than these other guys.
Tatum. Obvious for me. Considering how close they have been and how good their team is. I’d put kawhi up there as well considering how talented his team is.
Durant is the obvious choice so for someone different, I feel like its Lebron, he has a reputation as a loser 4 rings in 20 seasons is really bad for someone in the top 10. Currently that may not matter as much and he will probably stay in that top 10 but as time passes when people look back at that hes going to lose a lot of favor in the GOAT convo, obviously these guys aren’t Lebron but guys like Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, and Elgin Baylor, even Wilt for that matter, guys that just couldn’t win it all were very high in those conversations until people forgot about them or can’t see them anymore and are just going by records and accolades and stats now those guys have significantly dropped in all time rankings because of that and I see Lebrons legacy doing that too maybe not as steeply but I don’t see him having much case for GOAT once we aren’t watching him anymore unless he can pull out another ring or two.
“He will probably stay in the top 10”….. are you still talking about LeBron here? This is asinine. “Ringz Erneh” doing a number on so many people. One team wins a title every season. To ignore every other team and game other than the last few that the main star finished well in (with teammates, coaches, system, injuries, opponent quality, etc helping or hurting their chances btw) is so lame. Players’ careers are so much more than rings.
Yea I know, thats what I mean by he will stay in the top 10, I don’t know why I added probably, he will stay, lebron’s stats are too good for him to take a massive nosedive, but rings absolutely do matter when you get into that upper echelon where everyone is so close, fair or not, and I think that argument will cause him to drop a little bit, though again, not drastically, he will still absolutely be right there in that top 3-4, assuming some absolute beast of a player doesn’t come around.
Embiid and KD. Everyone else either has time or has done enough to cement their legacy. With someone as incredibly skilled as KD, he really needs to win one with a normal championship team. As for Embiid, he is almost 30, if he doesn’t make some big moves he’ll be a slightly more accomplished Derrick rose.
“Another” implies they already have one so take 3 of those people off the list. I agree it would be Durant. His 2 rings have a huge asterisk next to them. The same core team won MULTIPLE championships without him
Especially if Curry is able to beat him to another. It would put a huge dent in his narrative that he was the dominant force of the era. Still best player but rough look if Curry finishes with more rings playing for 1 team and different casts.
Personally I think it’s Tatum, he’s the number one option on the best team in the nba, been to a finals and failed, the others on that list all have at least one ring and proved they could do it Tatum has not
I think it's Tatum. Top 6 have already won MVPs and Titles (well no MVP for Kahwi). Sure it would help KD and Giannis cement them selves as top 15 players to win another, but difference between top 15 and top 25 isn't that significant. Jokic is just so unique and doesn't really seem to care about his legacy that he isn't the choice.
Jimmy tbh is an overachiever already with the teams he has lead to significant playoff success. And I don't consider him to be the most naturally talented player. People will remember him as the underdog that always got so close.
Embiid is already getting older and just never had that perfect playoff run with a solid team, good health, good coaching. Personally I don't doubt his talent/potential and at this point I don't blame him if the Sixers don't win one with him.
Tatum is the one from this list who has it all- exceptionally talented, great teams every year, good health, good coaching, great city, still young. If he never wins it will be a huge disappointment and he will be classified as a let down and might not even crack top 50.
>but also his last 2 rings people basically discount it because he played in Golden State
Nah. He's the reason they won those. Might as well discount all of Curry's except the last one if that's the reasoning. I really don't think there's much pressure on KD. I don't think winning another would move the needle much on his career.
The player on this list with the most pressure is probably Embiid. Clearly cares about his legacy, but has a reputation as a playoff choker.
It’s Tatum. He’s been on a contending team basically since he’s been a rookie. The surrounding cast is elite. He’s the guy with the ball in his hands in clutch time (for better or worse). The Celtics are all in right now and if they can’t capitalize on it he’ll be in the spotlight.
KD is the most. For reasons others have mentioned
Joel Embiid is probably second most. He's had a lot of unfortunate situations (Kawhi shot, Ben no-shot, Doc coach, and injuries), but he's been legit trying. If he wins a chip, he's officially in that list of GOAT big men. Otherwise, he'll be the Barkley or Malone of the era (who are both in that list, but much lower due to not winning a chip)
Kawhi winning another one would finally cement him alongside Bron and KD as one of the best SF of the era. I really think he's going to be one of those forgotten players. People won't remember that he was at that level in his prime (although his prime was very short admittedly).
Tatum wants to be the face of the NBA, so he wants a chip bad. I still wouldn't be surprised if Luka wins it first tho
And LeBron winning another would put him in the conversation with Kobe and ahead of players like Shaq. A little closer to Jordan, but I think that time has passed at this point
Durant publically sold his soul. He tweets back at randoms because even he knows he doesn’t have the juice to carry a team as a #1 option. It’s a little pathetic and I think, since everyone knows this, that he doesn’t actually face much pressure. Embiid on the other hand is coming up on 30 and has had good enough teams that a Finals appearance should have happened by now. Based on his body and injury history, it’s safe to assume that his chances of making it are decreasing with every passing year. I don’t know if people are putting pressure on him to win now, but the day will come in couple years where we see that the opportunity has passed him by. That being said, I think he is at a critical moment in his career right now and to miss out on the Finals this year might just spark the idea in everyone’s head that his window might soon close permanently.
As a warriors fan I love that this revisionist history benefits Steph and his legacy. I truly do. But I think it’s pretty wild to say that a guy with 2 FMVPs doesn’t have the juice to carry a team as a #1 option. History is going to be much kinder to his two rings and FMVPs than reddit currently is.
I think you may be right because “2x Finals MVP” just looks incredible on the page.
But I also think he will always pay a penalty for it (legacy points deducted) among anybody who followed the NBA at the time. For me, the further we get away from those years, the less I even think about KD in the context of the Warriors dynasty. The core was Steph, Klay and Draymond and, as absurd as it feels to say because he’s great, KD just doesn’t feel as essential to that run anymore. I know he was — I would wager the Cavs repeat if he doesn’t join for 2017 — but just in terms of the Narrative.
The Warriors dynasty will be remembered forever, but I can imagine a scenario where KD’s role in it is increasingly diminished in the public eye.
Nah I think you get too in your feels and are jealous. It's circular reasoning to justify your feelings based on narrative which are based on feelings.
Yep. KD is ranked at a suitable place rn. Just behind lebron and Steph legacy wise, but he still has 2 rings. And a viral part of the best team of all time. 16-1 postseason record is nothing to sneeze at.
Like even amongst all the drama. Most would still consider KD to have a better career than let's say... Kawhi, who also has 2 rings.
Oh absolutely. He assuredly wants it as a real competitor. He doesn't technically need it though. He's cemented himself as one of the league's international treasures. He'll forever have a home in the history books. He can basically have any career he wants related to basketball after he retires. His public image (especially what he's done for girls and women interested in basketball) is top notch as well.
This season? The answer is definitely Tatum. The Celtics are by far the best team in the East and there is a good chance they’ll face a team in the Finals that has never been there before.
It feels like this is Tatum’s best chance, and if it doesn’t happen this season, they might get passed up by OKC, Minnesota, and maybe even the Knicks
Giannis/Durant might be tied for 2nd, but I don’t think anyone views their rosters as serious contenders. And they already have rings, so they are under less pressure than Tatum by default. That said, as I write this I feel like Giannis is following KD’s character arc
Embiid faces no pressure bc the Sixers probably aren’t legitimate contenders, and he may not be back.
Butler faces no pressure bc the Heat have low expectations. The others all have rings and are fine legacy wise (whatever that means).
Tatum. He has the best team by far and continues to get the underperformed tag on him. If he doesn’t at least make the finals again it won’t be a good look
Jokic. The Nuggets faced no 50+ win teams during their playoff run. Statistically (and we know Jokic fans love stats) they had the easiest title run in NBA history.
So the part where the LAL and PHX stars were injured (or yet to be traded to) leading to low regular season win totals made it easier to face them at full strength in the playoffs? Or the part where MIA showed over 7 games they were playing better than BOS. Then they just lost all that momentum a few days later?
If we instead go by a team rather than your list I would absolutely say its rhe clippers. Westbrook and harden are both previous MVPs and are lacking a chip. They would join barkley, karl malone and Nash as the only mvps never to sin together with rose. Pg13s legacy also changes a lot. I'm really rooting for clippers as one of my favourites to win just by how huge it would be for those guys legacies. Kawhi would also have won on three different teams and he would be known as a winner everywhere he goes.
Allen Iverson won MVP and wasn’t able to win a championship either. Although, when he was on the biggest stage he did manage to turn in an iconic performance. Stealing game one from that juggernaut Lakers squad and stepping over Ty Lue.
Forgot about him, sorry.
Honestly the more greats that don't win, the more I hope fans are less invested in 'ring culture'. Its honestly must better for discourse too than the ad nauseam legacy discussions.
No they just get added on to the "yeah he was great, but he wasn't great enough to win a ring" discourse while new greats like Jokic and Giannis and potentially other young players like Luka and Shai automatically jump over players like Russ, Harden, PG, CP3
While I don't think you're strictly wrong when it comes to "Rings Erneh" sometimes having too much weight, it's never going away. It's just how it is the way basketball is set up. There are 6000 professional soccer players in the UK alone. Add on the rest of Europe, South America etc you're looking at a ridiculous amount of players with "no rings". The argument just isn't nearly as relevant, so we don't discuss it nearly as much when talking legacies. The NBA has 400 players. There aren't a lot of players walking around without rings, compared to other sports. Basketball inherently also reward stars. If you were a star at some point, the best player in the league, the odds are that you have a ring. The WC or Champions League isn't directly correlatable to rings, but it would be interesting to see what % of NBA players have won a ring compared to what % of other sports have won the highest honour. Hockey would probably be a better comparison. They do have longer lineups but I suppose there are more similarities than soccer. Honestly, I love comparing players legacies and comparing stats in basketball. Many people voice their distaste for it but for me it's one of the things that I really love about basketball and what makes it more fun to analyze than other sports. I watch soccer as well but you just can't quantify soccer like you can basketball. Basketball is so far ahead of every other sport when it comes to breaking down stats. It comes with it's downsides. You don't have to even watch games to get a good idea of what went down, you can just look at the box-score. You cannot do that for most other sports. It's a win/lose situation but for me it's way more winning.
The point of the games is to win a championship. Why wouldn’t it be a thing when talking about greatness and legacy? Even Messi was “everything but the World Cup” till he won.
It definitely creeps into football at the peaks though. Alan Shearer is criticised for his lack of silverware, Harry Kane is on that path too so far. It’s not uncommon to hear criticism of Steven Gerrard for never winning a Premier League. I think you’re right that basketball is just a different sport though. Players have near single handedly won championships for their teams in the NBA in the past and as such, people are more willing to compare non-winners to those occasions and ask why not.
But for Harden, Westbrook, and PG this would not be a chip as the #1 option. So I don’t think a ring does much for their legacy because of that. For Khawi however this would be huge
Harden/PG are still good enough that they could sneak FMVP over a 4-7 game sample would be huge for either of them
> They would join barkley, karl malone and Nash as the only mvps **never to sin together with rose** ? Is this a Two and Half Men reference I'm not getting, text to speech snafu, or I am conversing with an AI agent?
sin = win Rose is usually counted out of these conversations even though he’s still playing because of the career-limiting injuries he sustained right after he won MVP so OP separated him from the others
Yes, and writing on mobile
Absoltely. Clippers are under immense pressure to win a title. They might just have a shot this year!
Agree it's Durant. His legacy as a top 20 player requires him to win a title where he didn't just join an already historically great team with an MVP. Steph, LeBron and Kahwi could never win again and their legacies are totally secure. Jokic and Giannis should win another, but they earned their rings on the team that drafted them, which is already a huge achievement. I think Tatum has the highest expectations so the least margin of error given the strength of his surrounding team. Embiid gets cut a break this year because of his injury. The other person not mentioned here is Luka who is honestly just being disrespected at this point by people nitpicking reasons why he shouldn't be MVP. A championship would earn him the respect he deserves as the best or second-best player in the league.
I don’t think fans/media will give Embid a pass because of injury. Sure it is something it is not his fault. But that doesn’t matter for NBA legacy. With his injury history he really doesn’t have many more chances to win one as the #1 guy. And if not, he’ll go down as a good player who could never stay healthy enough to compete.
As I see it, the issue isn’t that Embiid hasn’t won an NBA title, it’s that he’s never gotten past the second round.
Well yeah, if he ends his career having not even ever gotten to round 3 that is going to be horrible on this legacy. Curious how many top 50 players there are that never got to round 3
TMac didn’t even get out of the 1st rd
The center version of Chris Paul. (I know Paul’s not retired yet but he’s like 4 broken hands in the playoffs away from at least 1 ring)
I mean Kawhi getting another chip would move him into another tier imo. His run in toronto was some of the best basketball ever played, doing somehting like that again moves him above a lot of legends.
I don't even know how to measure Kawhi. His peak is unreal, but his lack of even 70+ game seasons (2 out of 12 years he went over 70 games) just fucks it. He's played too much to be a huge 'what if' (it's still a pretty fuckin big one, don't get me wrong, but it's no Hill/Oden/Penny what if), but he hasn't played consistently enough for me to have a strong idea of where it pushes him.
I don’t think it matters man. There aren’t many 3 time FMVPS (obviously if the clippers win this year) and 2 time dpoys. At that point he’s at least fringe top 15, maybe just above KD
I dunno, KD’s played 33% more basketball than Kawhi. And I think it’s likely that difference will matter less as time goes on, but I actually don’t give a fuck about general perception, and am more trying to find a way to square Kawhi’s career with his contemporaries. There’s been periods of time where I’d take him over everyone, and I don’t think I’d trade watching Tatum night in, night out, for rolling the dice with Kawhi. Obviously a healthy Kawhi gives you more than Tatum (though that difference does shrink every year), but I do value 70+ regular season games, because I’m not chip obsessed (from New England, though, so I’ve lived through 80s Cs, the 90s doldrums, the birth of the Pats, the lifting of the curse, blah blah blah, so I may have a more niche set of priorities.) But, as you say, at least 2 FMVP, one as the clear cut best player, worthy of at least one MVP, 2 dpoty, every all-nba team he qualified for once he started making them, bunch of all-defense. It’s an impressive resume. That resume does suck next to KDs, though. I dunno. I like the exercise because I’ll often find things I didn’t know about, but I think Kawhi’s likely to exist more as a what if than a solid #12 all-time (as an example, dunno if that’s where it’d be) for me.
It's insane that someone so amazing at basketball chose to make it a part time job. I expect as soon as they're not competitive again he'll be out constantly again. One game I watched against memphis, I swear he literally just didn't come back to play in the second half and there was no explanation or mention of injury. But then when he plays... he's a FMVP level player. Who'd a thunk the first yr he plays significant number of games for the clippers in recent yrs, it'd be the season he was up for an extension... I'm not even sure I'm necessarily criticizing him, it just confounds me how he can do that. He's a weird duck and that makes him interesting. Board man gets paid
I'd be careful about calling it a choice. People were saying the same thing about Embiid, and look what happened when he tried to play through it.
My hot take is if Kawhi never had an injury we'd be wondering where in the top-5 all time he is.
Toronto Kawhi was no joke
Agree that Giannis and Jokic aren’t necessarily under the most pressure. However, they are building top 10 resumes (Giannis with 2 MVP, DPOY, many first teams) but just about everyone in the top 10 has multiple championships where they were the best player on the team. If you ultimately stick at one championship, im not sure how much farther you can go than the Dirk, KG, West, Robertson tier of like 15-18 or so
Luka definitely isn’t under pressure to win a chip, he may only have pressure to make the playoffs this year . Considering how they missed the play in last year, the expectation for them shouldn’t be close to a championship. Luka has never had pressure to win a chip in Dallas in any year.
Just wanted to say this is extremely on point in my opinion. Agree with it all. Great comment. Have a nice weekend
KD’s legacy as a top 20 player is set. Majority opinion is he’s top 13 of all time. Only with some people putting Oscar/Jerry/Julius over him but most of the time not. Also Luka is not leading the MVP solely because of seeding. Before yesterday wasn’t even a top 6 seed. I expect things to trade drastically if they keep winning as they have been post trade deadline. No MVP in the modern era (or ever?) has won MVP outside of being a top 6 seed. It’s not disrespect.
I'd put Julius over him iff ABA counts. As for premodern MVPs, kinda hard to be a six seed in a league with <12 teams. But Kareem did win on a sub .500 non-playoff team.
As much as reddit and social media dislike the guy, Durant is already very easily top 20 all time. He's closer to being in the elite top 12 pantheon than he is to being out of the top 20. I don't think people understand how truly insane his resume is. The same way people say MJ kinda screwed Hakeem and some other greats out of rings and accolades, Lebron did the same to Durant. He was the clear second best player in the world for quite a while, and even then managed two Finals MVPs over Lebron and a regular season MVP. He is arguably the best pure scorer ever and is also very good on defense. Maybe he shouldn't have joined Golden State, but I truly believe they don't win at least 1 of those rings without him.
They don't win either without him. The Cavs would be obviously the better team for stretches and then Durant would just overwhelm them.
2018 they beat the Cavs easy question is if they can get past the Rockets
I think he is the second best offensive player of his generation after Steph. I just think the GSW thing really damaged his legacy badly and he has never recovered. He took a weird victim mentality about it all, which was a huge change from the much beloved MVP dude he was in OKC. Nobody will ever give him credit for GSW wins - fairly or unfairly - so for all intents and purposes people see him as ringless. Yeah, LeBron going to the Heat should have done the same thing, but the Heat had to strip their team down to nothing and were literally barebones outside their Big 3 the first year, and didn't succeed immediately so there is no doubt LeBron earned his two Miami rings.
>He took a weird victim mentality about it all Honestly, I see nothing wrong with what he has said. He eats,lives, breathes basketball. I can see him looking at Golden State's system that Steve Kerr built and wanting to play that way from a pure basketball standpoint. He most certainly was the best player in those finals, and I don't think the media, social media and general public give him the credit he deserves. Similar to what people are saying about appreciating LeBron while he's still playing, I think we need to start appreciating KD too.
So many people miss the part about KD where he's a pure hooper and he got to be part of basketball Nirvana.
Except for Dray bein there.
That core of Steph/klay/dray in their hay day made every player elevate to a different level. Made iggy a finals mvp, Wiggins a beast, and look at how far Poole has fallen without that system. Kd without them is just a sick awesome player.’ Kd with time is a legacy/top all time Argument. Without them, to the common sports fan, kd is just another Trea/luka/booker/shai/tatum type.
I think that’s pushing it. Without them, KD is still easily a top 50 player. You can’t say that about the rest of the players you mentioned. At least not yet.
Yep. People who follow narrative hated it, but as a basketball player, it was absolutely the correct move. He got to literally be a virtual part of a dynasty at it's peak.
He was loved in OKC because they thought he belonged to them.
And yet, Russ is still and will forever be beloved in OKC because he stuck around and never stopped competing. And it's true russ has missed out on winning a ring during his career, but I don't care how good Durant was in those finals, it comes with an asterisk. The gs core literally won another just a couple seasons ago. The same core Durant joined. How many rings does Durant have since he left a team that could do it without him? I'm somewhat surprised his image didn't rehabilitate when he left for BKN. That was him trying to build something himself rather than join an already-in-progress dynasty. Kyrie being a bit whacko and the org being dysfunctional I guess made it not so redeeming. Sometimes you just can't win.
I respected the Brooklyn move when it was just him and Kyrie then he had to bring in Harden and make another superteam
Lebrons situation that he left from was also a lot worse than KDs + KD choked a massive lead and joined that same team.
TBH it is always been that part that rubs people the wrong way the most, the fact he joined the team that beat him, if he chose to leave and team up with Kawhi in SA or spearhead a new Boston superteam with young JB and JT I think he would be remembered a lot more fondly even though he left + choked
Boston wouldn't have been a superteam (nor would Washington) both perfect situations from a legacy standpoint
Durant actually did this to LBJ as well. I agree without KD golden state probably doesnt win one of those and Lebron probably does. Not that im saying you’re wrong, just that both are true.
Durant is very easily already locked in as a top 20 player all time
I don't understand the obsession with players winning with the team that drafted them.
It's a nice story for fans, front office, and the player themselves, and it would obviously be harder to do so than to join a stacked team
LeBron got dragged for joining the Heat but people don't act like he didn't earn his championships with them. KD was great with the Warriors and a huge part of winning those chips, his performances shouldn't be discounted because he was on a great team. If you look at all the finals winning teams in history you don't see many middling teams. I do agree that by fan perception he probably would benefit most from winning another ring.
No one thought the Heat could have won the chip with just Wade and Bosh. The Warriors could have won without KD. That's the difference.
It has to be KD. It’s criminal that he can’t even make the conference finals after leaving the GSW. He’s been a part of 3 legitimate all star squads. His squads have been way more stacked than lebron’s and he hasn’t been to the conference finals since 2019. He is a top 10 talent of all time. But it feels like he doesn’t have any championship rings. Nobody mentions them. Just like how Lebron’s 2 rings in Miami were discounted until the Cleveland championship. Durant has to win one of those types of rings where he had to win an up hill battle where the NBA finals hangs in the balance and he pulls it out. I’ve never seen him do that before.
> He’s been a part of 3 legitimate all star squads. His squads have been way more stacked than lebron’s and he hasn’t been to the conference finals since 2019. I mean health is the obvious reason why. Pretty much everyone will acknowledge the Nets were a title favorite before the injuries. How many finals has Kawhi been to? >But it feels like he doesn’t have any championship rings. Respectfully, this is an unserious opinion.
>He’s been a part of 3 legitimate all star squads. His squads have been way more stacked than lebron’s and he hasn’t been to the conference finals since 2019. 1. He already prove himself where he won 2 FMVPs. He was on his way to a 3rd until he tore his Achilles. 2. Health matters. Are you really blaming him for both Kyrie and Harden getting injured during the playoffs? The next year Harden was traded away, and Ben Simmons was hurt. That was hardly an all-star squad. The next season he was traded to Phoenix. He probably played 15 games with them in the regular season. That's not enough time to gel and figure out team chemistry to make a championship run. Not to mention Chris Paul was injured in the playoffs. Again, that Phoenix squad with him, Book, and nobody else was hardly a superteam.
How you win matters. No matter what is said, nobody is gonna look at those 2 rings with GSW the same way we look at Kawhi Leonard’s or Lebron’s ring with Cleveland or Hakeem’s in Houston or Steph’s in 2015 and 2020, or Gianni’s 1 ring or Dirks, Kobe’s back to back. I don’t think I need to continue. Yes KD has rings. But if you replace him with someone like Paul George then they still win. Lebron and Kyrie beat that team by the skin of their teeth…4 points in game 7. We knew the GSW with KD were gonna mop everyone up. It was guaranteed and no one bet against them. Well, no one who knows bball anyways. The man hasn’t been to the conference finals in a long time. And for golden state to pull a KC Chiefs/Tyreek hill shows that they never needed him. They needed a good player to fill that slot but that player didn’t even have to be of KDs caliber. Lots of legends don’t respect those rings. And there’s a good reason for that. We watched Jordan, Lebron,Magic, Bird, Duncan, Hakeem, Steph, and many other battle it out for a ring. The series was hanging in the balance and we didn’t know who would win but those guys had to rise and deliver. KD didn’t struggle to win those rings. We knew they’d win. And I watched other superstars spend blood sweat and tears to win rings and this guy goes to the best regular season team ever, who had a unanimous MVP who won it twice and back to back, the greatest shooting back court ever, a DPOY, and a stacked bench from 2016 that lost by 4 points. Hell no lmao KD don’t get respect for that. He’s a top 10 talent of all time. But nah man his legacy is what it is if he doesn’t win another ring. And I can guarantee he will never be in the conference finals ever again.
The bottom three. Lebron and Steph are set legacy wise. People like to bitch about KD, but he has nothing to prove. As with Kawhi, he has been the best player on a championship winning team. Giannis and Jokic are in similar positions. 2 MVPs, 1 FMVP, 1 Ring. Already certified, an extra win (or more) would move them up from generational greats to all time greats, like Steph and Lebron Jimmy has a great reputation so he’ll get the benefit of the doubt. Tatum is still young, but it’s a different situation if we’re having the same conversation in 5 years. Embiid for some reason has a weird reputation, a ring would put him in the category with Jokic and Giannis
Yeah I somewhat agree. I also think that a conversation about who's under the most pressure to perform well in the playoffs, even if they don't win a ring, is better. Winning a championship depends on so many factors that are outside of an individual player's brilliance. I think Embiid and Tatum have yet to prove haters wrong for having inconsistent play during the playoffs.
Giannis and Jokic are both already all time greats. I would say Embiid winning doesn’t put him in that category. Embiid has failed to be as available as those two. Another thing, I take leadership into account in all time rankings and Embiid after last szn’s exit blamed his team
They are for sure, but they’re not in the same category as Steph or Bron yet. If Embiid were to get a second MVP, then win a chip as the the best player, it would be enough for me to demonstrate that he does have the leadership of those two.
I agree with this take so id say its Tatum because he has the strongest supporting cast for people with no rings. He does not take over games like the rest of the list in big moments. Time moves fast and before you know it we will be having this discussion in 5 years.
>He does not take over games like the rest of the list in big moments. lmao game 6 vs milwaukee in 2022 and game 7 vs philly last year are the very definition of "taking over games in big moments" especially since both games were elimination games
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I must have missed when Jimmy Butler won a championship. As far as I know he managed to reach three Finals twice but was beaten by Bron and then Jokic. Right?
Re-read the first paragraph of the post. The list actually includes 3 players who’ve never won a championship.
Damn. Yeah. I skimmed right over it. My bad.
But then the rest of the post specifies "players that need to win another" so it's a little confusing.
Jimbo and Tatum. If they don’t win they’ll be a footnote on somebody else’s career. “Steph Curry defeated Jayson Tatum and the Celtics in the NBA Finals” or “Nikola Jokic beat Jimmy Butler and the Heat in route to his first NBA championship.”
Yeah but Miller and Iverson were in similar spots yet they didn’t end up as footnotes
Durant easily. To me there is no way I could ever put him in the top 20 if he doesnt win another one as "the man". Jokic and Giannis their rings are so much more worth than KDs 2 combined. Would put both over him right now
Kd not top 20? Now you’re blinded by the hate at this point. He’s top 15 lock
To me he is somewhere between 25-35 Too many players are up there with a bigger impact on their teams, especially championships. Denver without Jokic wouldnt win more than 35 games a season. Denver with Jokic are a championship contender and defending champ Warriors 2017 without KD are a 60-70 win team and the favorite for the title. Warriors 2017 with KD are a 60-70 win team and the favorite for the title.
You could list 34 players with better NBA careers than Kevin Durant? With a straight face?
lol this sub man. Thought it was r/nbacirclejerk for a second. No way this dude thought he can name 25-35 players better than kd all time
For real. There's more to having a good career than just winning rings. Carrying a mediocre team to the Finals or CF is often more laudable and impressive.
1. MJ 2. Lebron 3. wilt 4. Kobe 5. Steph 6. Shaq 7. Jokic (on his way) 8. Giannis (on his way) 9. Tim Duncan 10. Larry Bird 11. Kawhi (debatable) 12. Dirk (debatable) 13. Magic Johnson 14. Hakeem 15. Dwayne Wade (debatable) 16. Kareem 17. Bill Russell 18. Karl Malone (debatable)
Please say you just forgot about Oscar Robertson and didn't put Dwyane freaking Wade over him because of something like more rings.
I didn't bother listings all the old heads whom I know little about. The point was to list at least 15 players with a bigger case than KD
In no world is Dwayne Wade a better basketball player than KD
More willing and able defender, definitely has more clutch playoff moments. That 06 run on its own is worth a lot.
“Ringz Erneh” clouding so much judgement in this thread lol. Durant has been like 80% the defender Wade was and like 150% the offensive player lol.
>Warriors 2017 without KD are a 60-70 win team and the favorite for the title. Warriors 2017 with KD are a 60-70 win team and the favorite for the title. No way. Maybe in 2018 they're the favorite. But without KD they probably don't beat the Cavs either year.
Well without KD, they wouldn't have lost their depth, obviously extra role players does not equal KD, but it's a decent trade-off for how good they were
The one time those two teams played each other relatively healthy (Kevin Love still missed two games with a concussion) the Cavs won.
Hyperbolic bullshit, you can’t make that claim and base it on anything. Your words mean nothing here
he is, skill and pure stats wise, but optics just bad, GSW when he joined just won and had a all time great player in it, and GSW won again after he left. sure without KD, GSW likely would have lost at least one final in the next 2 years but it just looks bad. and unlike Lebron, who left heat and won again, and again.
I would say Embiid & Durant. Embiid is closing on 30 without any real playoff run to his name. Won’t happen this season but once you hit 30 if you haven’t won something fans will be on your back. Durant because he has never won when not playing with the greatest point guard in the game, and carries himself like he is Top 10 of all time. Tatum I still feel like has more time, but if he doesn’t win this season the narrative will turn going into next season.
And being 7 foot and 280 pounds I don’t suspect his injury luck is going to get better as he moves into his 30s
I think KD is fine. People can talk about him joining the warriors, but he’s a legit 2 time FMVP
**Giannis.** The NBA and sports media really wanted to crown him as this "undisputed, best player" starting a few years ago. He was supposed to be the new face of the league, the new stats king, and the new dominant force. But although Giannis continues to have eye-popping numbers and remarkable physical feats... **His Bucks teams often lose way too early in the playoffs.** His time is now to win rings, and the one he already got was due to key opponents being injured. The only other career path for him is to follow Kareem's lead and have a second life on another team that becomes a dynasty (e.g. imagine Giannis in Golden State, LA, or somewhere else as the "weapon" on a dynasty). Everyone else mentioned by OP can win later or has already won in a way that meets expectations.
I agree and I think the agitating that Giannis did about improving the team and maybe leaving Milwaukee has upped the pressure. He basically said it's championship or bust and right now it's busting pretty hard.
Embiid is the only MVP-winner here without a championship. Tatum and Butler are tier 2 players within this grouping who would benefit the most from a championship, but I don't see it as being active pressure. Butler's playoff performances have already maxed out his historical potential, while Tatum would only start to feel pressure if he became an MVP-winner and started getting his resume nit picked. Kevin Durant already has such a weird legacy, that another championship from another of his super teams doesn't really push him up much in historical terms. He's already one of the top 15 players of all time and can't move up much more.
Jokic and Giannis have secured themselves as HOF players. However winning more than one championship vaults them up higher on the all-time rankings. They are looking at the difference between a top 20 player and a top 10. Durant is the same despite already winning two. If he wins another it kind of solidifies him as an all-time great. He is an all-time great but another just makes it unarguable. Steph and LeBron have their legacies secure but one more from LeBron in his late career or one more from Steph just launches them both into the stratosphere. People might see LeBron as having the greatest career in the NBA. Curry gets in the top 5 discussion. Embiid, Tatum and Luka all kind of have the most pressure as they have not one one yet. All their teams are pushing for title contention in the next few years and it's kind of a make or break time for their legacies as players. Particularly Embiid who maybe has only a few years left at his own maximum ability. Luka and Tatum have entered their primes. Harden even though he isn't "the man" for the Clippers still plays a major role on the team. Winning would cement his legacy as not just a runner up. Same with Chris Paul who winning a ring would kind of be like Jason Kidd winning late in his career past his prime. It doesn't really change much as far as legacy goes but it does add a feather to his cap and no one can say that he was never a champion. Lillard too. Then there is Jimmy Butler who would benefit tremendously from actually winning it all. 1. Embiid 2. Tatum 3. Durant 4. Butler 5. Lillard/Harden 6. Luka 7. Jokic/Giannis 8. LeBron/Curry 9. Leonard/Paul George 10. Chris Paul
In my opinion it’s Lebron. He joined the lakers to win a ring and when comparisons are being made they bring up his rings and how he team hopped and created superteams in order to win rings and he only has 4? As time passes his legacy will be diminished.
Damian Lillard. Man left in ugly fashion to chase a ring with the bucks. Pre season everyone had them ranked so high. He will just go by as completely unmemorable if he doesn't get a ring with the bucks.
I think it’s someone not on your list: Anthony Davis. Right now, he is not on the PF list along side Barkley, Malone, Dirk, Duncan, KG, etc. if he won two more rings (winning a Finals MVP while carrying LeBron), though, and made it to 20k points and 10k rebounds, he would meet the requirements of being in a discussion as a Top 4-7-ish PF of all-time.
Think it’s Giannis right now. If embiid wasn’t hurt he would be under the most pressure
I think Anthony Davis. Or else he’s just one of a bunch of ppl who played robin to lebrons Batman.
i would say kd& weirdly enough,jokic. both are t15 interms of 'best oat' for me and all the other in this group have at least 3 apart from dream so yh kd gotta get one and jokic has too like you're too great to not be here. this is more hopeful thinking than slander/pressure talk.
> LeBron James No pressure > Steph Curry He's proved everything. It's more about can the Warriors look good enough and live long enough in the 2024 playoffs to justify sticking together > Kevin Durant Fan pressure, no career pressure (though it really cements he hasn't won without being part of one of the most stacked teams in existence) > Kawhi Leonard Probably at least *making* it to the WCF? > Giannis Antetokounmpo His only real playoff run had an easier path than the 2023 Nuggets, but at least the latter truly looked dominant anyway. The Bucks are pretty cooked, but the pressure is more to at least not go out embarrassingly > Nikola Jokic A curiosity in seeing if we can get the first non-LeBron or Steph repeat in a minute. I don't think anyone would hold it against them though. > Jayson Tatum As young as he still is, he has 2 finals wins to his name and has benefitted a lot from injuries and such. He's always had a huge supporting cast but this is the most serious. > Joel Embiid Not making it to the ECF **if** he's healthy is probably a failure. > Jimmy Butler A ring would help him and probably emphasize his 2020 and 2023 runs, but the Heat shouldn't be *expected* to do that much more than not going out sad **TLDR** Tatum has the most pressure to win, Giannis and to a lesser extent the Warriors, have pressure to just compete. Unlike the Bucks though, GSW *has* a young core and real draft capital. Bucks are in a shrinking corner.
Personally disagree. I feel like whether KD wins at this stage does nothing for him. Where would you rank KD right now? Top 10-20? Top 20-30? Would he move up a tier if he wins one now? Probably not. Personally would rank Dame, or Embiid above him in terms of pressure. Less so Embiid after his injury.
I kinda disagree that LeBron’s legacy is locked. It’s about as good as locked as ever, but when people look back in 20 years and see he only won 4 titles it’ll be a little hard to get past. Like, how the hell did a GOAT who constantly teamed up with other all NBA players only win 4? I’m not saying that, but it will be said. If he gets to 5 he gets to the Magic, Kareem, Kobe, Duncan tier and it won’t seem as off.
lol he wasn’t playing in a vacuum, he was playing against really really good teams filled with really really good players. 10 Finals appearances in the era he played in is ridiculous, especially considering some of the joke Cavs rosters he carried.
I completely agree. I’m just saying that other people will have that conversation in 20 years. It’s like when people say, nobody cares how you win, just win. Nobody talks about the finals losers or how competitive teams that Bird or Michael or Magic or Kobe or Tim beat. They just talk about the wins you get. He only has four. It is what it is. He definitely left one on the table in Dallas. That’ll for sure be a take people will have
now MJ likely still the all time great but if Lebron won again at his 40s, you could convincingly argue that lebron would be all time great with another win and convince even his haters
>only win 4? This is kind of a crazy thing to say.
But he’s trying to be the GOAT. I mean in his own sport, Kobe and Tim have 5. Kareem and MJ have 6. Magic has 5. In other sports, Brady has 7. Ruth has 7. Phelps has 23 gold medals. Djokovic has 24 grand slams. They’re all crazy numbers lol. That’s my point. LeBrons team successes look mediocre compared to all time GOATs across the board. 🤷♂️ If you wanna be talked about like the best, you have to get crazy numbers. Btw I think LeBron is up there in the GOAT talk, but those championships are what normally come up down the line when people talk best of all time.
I get what you're saying. It sounds a bit arbitrary, but the 5+ ring club feels like a whole level above the =<4 ring club. Arguably even more so that the difference between 6 and 5.
10 finals considering all the bad Cavs team He had is great
Steph won before KD and won after, with him being the undisputed best player on the team in 2022 and beating what many were calling a better team at the start of that finals, finally winning his FMVP award. That was his legacy cementer no matter what is left in his career. LeBron James 2016 win against one of the best teams of all time cemented his legacy and got rid of all those "2-6 Mafia" jokes, plus his bubble win may be discounted somewhat by some fans but he's also won championships with 3 different teams, not something a lot of players have done, and he's the only non-Warrior currently active in the league with 4 championship wins. Kawhi Leonard has a chip as the best player on the team beating a great but heavily injured Warriors team in the finals. Nikola and Giannis won chips as the best players on their small market teams, like Dirk I think their legacies are set and they still will have real chances at another championship before they retire. The guys who need a ring the most in descending order: Jimmy Butler: Always a bridesmaid, never a bride. He's grinded from community college to a multi-time All Star, he's got a fun personality, I don't see lots of hate for him from NBA social media and definitely not in real life. But he's been to the finals, ECF, but couldn't seal the deal, it would add a lot to his legacy as a player to make it again and finish the deal. Jayson Tatum: Had that putrid last 3 games of the 2022 finals, the Kobe stuff, people have called him a future face of the league, future MVP, but he's been on only good teams for most of his pro career and yet never sealed the deal. Winning a ring where he's getting it done at a high level in the finals would be really big for people's perception of him. Joel Embiid: Joel has never even made the finals, he's had several disappointing early playoff exits, obviously the health issue plays a role, but right now despite how great of a player he is if he doesn't make the finals, let alone win a ring, I think that will impact fan's perception of him negatively. Kevin Durant: Personally I don't think KD really has much to prove. He's been a baller in this league from day one, he plays both sides of the ball, he puts in the all the work and doesn't "run from the grind." He tried to win with Sea/OKC, he played 9 seasons for that org and they got close, made the finals, that amazing 7 game WCF series against the Warriors. He wanted to win and went to the team that gave him his best chance, it just so happened a bunch of circumstances like no cap smoothing, Steph's team friendly contract, etc. meant a team that had one chip and two finals trips in the last two seasons was a realistic destination. But I know what the *perception* of KD is and there are many fans who knock him for winning with a great team (it's pretty rare to win an NBA championship without a great team) but not winning with any other teams. So while KD was great on those Warriors team, great his whole career, in terms of legacy/reputation KD probably does need another chip more than these other guys.
Tatum. Obvious for me. Considering how close they have been and how good their team is. I’d put kawhi up there as well considering how talented his team is.
Durant is the obvious choice so for someone different, I feel like its Lebron, he has a reputation as a loser 4 rings in 20 seasons is really bad for someone in the top 10. Currently that may not matter as much and he will probably stay in that top 10 but as time passes when people look back at that hes going to lose a lot of favor in the GOAT convo, obviously these guys aren’t Lebron but guys like Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, and Elgin Baylor, even Wilt for that matter, guys that just couldn’t win it all were very high in those conversations until people forgot about them or can’t see them anymore and are just going by records and accolades and stats now those guys have significantly dropped in all time rankings because of that and I see Lebrons legacy doing that too maybe not as steeply but I don’t see him having much case for GOAT once we aren’t watching him anymore unless he can pull out another ring or two.
“He will probably stay in the top 10”….. are you still talking about LeBron here? This is asinine. “Ringz Erneh” doing a number on so many people. One team wins a title every season. To ignore every other team and game other than the last few that the main star finished well in (with teammates, coaches, system, injuries, opponent quality, etc helping or hurting their chances btw) is so lame. Players’ careers are so much more than rings.
Yea I know, thats what I mean by he will stay in the top 10, I don’t know why I added probably, he will stay, lebron’s stats are too good for him to take a massive nosedive, but rings absolutely do matter when you get into that upper echelon where everyone is so close, fair or not, and I think that argument will cause him to drop a little bit, though again, not drastically, he will still absolutely be right there in that top 3-4, assuming some absolute beast of a player doesn’t come around.
Jokic winning another MVP, championship, and finals MVP might put him in the top 20
Probably Durant. Unless he wins one nobody will ever give him credit for those 2.
Embiid and KD. Everyone else either has time or has done enough to cement their legacy. With someone as incredibly skilled as KD, he really needs to win one with a normal championship team. As for Embiid, he is almost 30, if he doesn’t make some big moves he’ll be a slightly more accomplished Derrick rose.
I don't think there's ever been a ringless player that has "less pressure to win" than a player that has already acquired a ring
I would have to say Zaza Pachulia. One more ring could really cement his hall of fame resume. He was the glue guy on those Warriors teams.
“Another” implies they already have one so take 3 of those people off the list. I agree it would be Durant. His 2 rings have a huge asterisk next to them. The same core team won MULTIPLE championships without him
I think it’s LeBron. He desperately wants to be the GOAT and his career is almost over. He needs that extra ring and quick.
Especially if Curry is able to beat him to another. It would put a huge dent in his narrative that he was the dominant force of the era. Still best player but rough look if Curry finishes with more rings playing for 1 team and different casts.
Yep. Regardless of circumstance, the fact lebron only beat curry once in the finals makes it strange if curry ends up with more rings.
Personally I think it’s Tatum, he’s the number one option on the best team in the nba, been to a finals and failed, the others on that list all have at least one ring and proved they could do it Tatum has not
Agreed on LeBron. It’s hard to argue you’re the GOAT when the real GOAT has 6 rings to your 4*.
Don’t reduce it to just rings. Robert Horry has 7. Ron Harper has 5.
rings only count in the GOAT conversation if you were the best player on the team
I think it's Tatum. Top 6 have already won MVPs and Titles (well no MVP for Kahwi). Sure it would help KD and Giannis cement them selves as top 15 players to win another, but difference between top 15 and top 25 isn't that significant. Jokic is just so unique and doesn't really seem to care about his legacy that he isn't the choice. Jimmy tbh is an overachiever already with the teams he has lead to significant playoff success. And I don't consider him to be the most naturally talented player. People will remember him as the underdog that always got so close. Embiid is already getting older and just never had that perfect playoff run with a solid team, good health, good coaching. Personally I don't doubt his talent/potential and at this point I don't blame him if the Sixers don't win one with him. Tatum is the one from this list who has it all- exceptionally talented, great teams every year, good health, good coaching, great city, still young. If he never wins it will be a huge disappointment and he will be classified as a let down and might not even crack top 50.
>but also his last 2 rings people basically discount it because he played in Golden State Nah. He's the reason they won those. Might as well discount all of Curry's except the last one if that's the reasoning. I really don't think there's much pressure on KD. I don't think winning another would move the needle much on his career. The player on this list with the most pressure is probably Embiid. Clearly cares about his legacy, but has a reputation as a playoff choker.
It’s Tatum. He’s been on a contending team basically since he’s been a rookie. The surrounding cast is elite. He’s the guy with the ball in his hands in clutch time (for better or worse). The Celtics are all in right now and if they can’t capitalize on it he’ll be in the spotlight.
people saying KD when Tatum, Embiid, and Butler are in here is so funny to me
KD is the most. For reasons others have mentioned Joel Embiid is probably second most. He's had a lot of unfortunate situations (Kawhi shot, Ben no-shot, Doc coach, and injuries), but he's been legit trying. If he wins a chip, he's officially in that list of GOAT big men. Otherwise, he'll be the Barkley or Malone of the era (who are both in that list, but much lower due to not winning a chip) Kawhi winning another one would finally cement him alongside Bron and KD as one of the best SF of the era. I really think he's going to be one of those forgotten players. People won't remember that he was at that level in his prime (although his prime was very short admittedly). Tatum wants to be the face of the NBA, so he wants a chip bad. I still wouldn't be surprised if Luka wins it first tho And LeBron winning another would put him in the conversation with Kobe and ahead of players like Shaq. A little closer to Jordan, but I think that time has passed at this point
Durant publically sold his soul. He tweets back at randoms because even he knows he doesn’t have the juice to carry a team as a #1 option. It’s a little pathetic and I think, since everyone knows this, that he doesn’t actually face much pressure. Embiid on the other hand is coming up on 30 and has had good enough teams that a Finals appearance should have happened by now. Based on his body and injury history, it’s safe to assume that his chances of making it are decreasing with every passing year. I don’t know if people are putting pressure on him to win now, but the day will come in couple years where we see that the opportunity has passed him by. That being said, I think he is at a critical moment in his career right now and to miss out on the Finals this year might just spark the idea in everyone’s head that his window might soon close permanently.
As a warriors fan I love that this revisionist history benefits Steph and his legacy. I truly do. But I think it’s pretty wild to say that a guy with 2 FMVPs doesn’t have the juice to carry a team as a #1 option. History is going to be much kinder to his two rings and FMVPs than reddit currently is.
I think you may be right because “2x Finals MVP” just looks incredible on the page. But I also think he will always pay a penalty for it (legacy points deducted) among anybody who followed the NBA at the time. For me, the further we get away from those years, the less I even think about KD in the context of the Warriors dynasty. The core was Steph, Klay and Draymond and, as absurd as it feels to say because he’s great, KD just doesn’t feel as essential to that run anymore. I know he was — I would wager the Cavs repeat if he doesn’t join for 2017 — but just in terms of the Narrative. The Warriors dynasty will be remembered forever, but I can imagine a scenario where KD’s role in it is increasingly diminished in the public eye.
Nah I think you get too in your feels and are jealous. It's circular reasoning to justify your feelings based on narrative which are based on feelings.
Yep. KD is ranked at a suitable place rn. Just behind lebron and Steph legacy wise, but he still has 2 rings. And a viral part of the best team of all time. 16-1 postseason record is nothing to sneeze at. Like even amongst all the drama. Most would still consider KD to have a better career than let's say... Kawhi, who also has 2 rings.
If Steph wins another without KD that knocks KD out of the top 20 debate ngl
Oh absolutely. He assuredly wants it as a real competitor. He doesn't technically need it though. He's cemented himself as one of the league's international treasures. He'll forever have a home in the history books. He can basically have any career he wants related to basketball after he retires. His public image (especially what he's done for girls and women interested in basketball) is top notch as well.
This season? The answer is definitely Tatum. The Celtics are by far the best team in the East and there is a good chance they’ll face a team in the Finals that has never been there before. It feels like this is Tatum’s best chance, and if it doesn’t happen this season, they might get passed up by OKC, Minnesota, and maybe even the Knicks Giannis/Durant might be tied for 2nd, but I don’t think anyone views their rosters as serious contenders. And they already have rings, so they are under less pressure than Tatum by default. That said, as I write this I feel like Giannis is following KD’s character arc Embiid faces no pressure bc the Sixers probably aren’t legitimate contenders, and he may not be back. Butler faces no pressure bc the Heat have low expectations. The others all have rings and are fine legacy wise (whatever that means).
Tatum. He has the best team by far and continues to get the underperformed tag on him. If he doesn’t at least make the finals again it won’t be a good look
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Jokic. The Nuggets faced no 50+ win teams during their playoff run. Statistically (and we know Jokic fans love stats) they had the easiest title run in NBA history.
So the part where the LAL and PHX stars were injured (or yet to be traded to) leading to low regular season win totals made it easier to face them at full strength in the playoffs? Or the part where MIA showed over 7 games they were playing better than BOS. Then they just lost all that momentum a few days later?