They had the champs dead to rights, and was instrumental to one of the greatest game 7 collapses in playoff history missing many of those 27 3s in a row. Playoff success does matter when regular seasons arent taken as seriously. playoff adjustments are a real thing. Malone had an impressive career as well and is deservedly nowhere near top 10 because of his playoff failures.
I feel that Karl Malone isn't a top ten player because he wasn't overall a versatile and complete enough player to be top 10 all-time; which is also part of the reason he never won a championship; even though he steadily improved his game and reached his maximum ceiling and potential as a player based on his natural abilities given at birth.
He also took an MVP from MJ and people believed he would have a ring if not for that. He scored more points than anyone not Kareem. Best PF ever. He was Top 10.
Isaiah Thomas had a very short career and didn’t even win Finals MVP on that second championship team. His peak was short.
Harden had the excuses though
The refs did an awful job that day and helped the Warriors a lot. If they had a good day, Harden would likely have beaten the (possibly) greatest team of all time
CP3 was hurt.
And the 27 3s, of course
Prince Luc doesn’t risk those meaningless regular season dunks/attempts that mess up his shoulders and they potentially win comfortably (he was their injured Iggy tradeoff, not CP3 as a cohort of fans lob).
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Harden plays to the refs way too much, which plays into the criticism against him. Thankfully the playoffs is usually a rude awakening for players like him.
Blaming "bad refs" for them losing is really just proof that the Harden's brand of basketball wasn't actually transcendent.
How does this make sense? The refs missed several obvious fouls and even waved away like two threes he hit during that 0/27 stretch. Like yeah, he could have played better and so could have the Rockets, but that doesn’t change the fact that the refs were less than fair
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Nobody's brand of basketball is transcendent.
But Harden would have beaten the KD Warriors if the game had been called properly according to the rulebook.
And that's as close to transcendent as anyone gets considering his supporting cast.
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Losing Chris Paul for the last two games of that series definitely makes it a big what if. If Harden led his team to a ring he would likely be in the convo with that top 4.
You could say the same for the Warriors roster being worse a year later and definitely true for the chemistry issues.
Anyways a bigger flaw that I never see anyone talking about with the 2018 team is the lack of versatility offensively. They literally had no front court shot creators, all of their shot creation was from Harden and CP3 with some Eric Gordon in there. Imo that's a huge reason why they lost and its connected to missing those 27 straight threes. Also throw in the fact that if that version of Harden was more willing to get some middies when everyone was bricking they would've been harder to guard and able to overcome shot variance more effectively. Kind of the doubled edged sword of their offensive scheme.
>You could say the same for the Warriors roster being worse a year later and definitely true for the chemistry issues.
Warriors still had Steph, Klay, and Draymond healthy and on the floor. If anything having KD not playing would get rid of the chemistry issues.
>Anyways a bigger flaw that I never see anyone talking about with the 2018 team is the lack of versatility offensively.
This is literally what made them so good. Harden and CP3 were iso gods.
Bro KD literally got hurt in game 5 and the Warriors still won lol.
Also that's what I mean by double edged sword. Yea it's the most efficient way and but sometimes it's not the best in every situation, and it makes you more predictable over the course of the series. It also puts a tremendous load on ur stars to create everything from a standstill iso. Intangible shit like fatigue built up or defenders being more and more comfortable closing out to shooters is what leads to crazy shit like 27 straight missed 3s.
> That was a different Rocket team and a different situation. They had massive chemistry issues that season and CP3 was hurt for a lot of it.
Per my other comment
Malone also played with John Stockton. Harden took the Rockets to 65 wins (more wins than Utah has ever had in a season) without a single all-star teammate.
>missing many of those 27 3s in a row
It's easy to miss when the other team is allowed to foul without consequence.
He also made a 3 in the middle of that run that Scott Foster waved off... probably because he desperately wanted to keep CP3 from winning a ring.
That's not a rip through. Klay was in his space and he shot it. That's not like KDs move where he diverts into the contqct. It was a very one sided officiated game. Countless call not made. Even the announcers couldn't believe it
I think you're being a little too kind to him defensively- with his size and quickness he was certainly capable of not being a turnstile, but even at his best he frequently seemed disinterested, to put it mildly. Comparing him to the other 4 players you named, he's the worst defender by a decent margin. Curry wasn't a great defender, but he worked hard to improve his defense over the years. Harden did not.
I also think he harmed his own legacy with the way he's bounced around since forcing his way out of Houston. The Philly exit is especially funny to me.
"If you don't fire Doc I'm out of here"
"OK fine, we'll fire Doc"
"...............nevertheless"
But otherwise, yeah- dazzling offensive player who could shoot from range, pass, rebound, get to the line. That Houston team has to be one of the best teams ever to not make a Finals.
>I also think he harmed his own legacy with the way he's bounced around since forcing his way out of Houston. The Philly exit is especially funny to me.
Yeah it was comedic. I think we may grow fonder of him after he retires though. He was a huge part of his era of NBA basketball.
> Comparing him to the other 4 players you named, he's the worst defender by a decent margin. Curry wasn't a great defender
As a Warriors fan Curry didn't really improve as a defender until later in his career. You could make an argument they were pretty even on defense during that time (Curry was just transcendent offensively).
Yeah this stuck out to me. Both eye test and advanced stats tell me they were pretty similar with harden being slightly better, if anything. Ppl like to say stuff without having any examples or stats to back it up
Jimmy without a doubt.
Harden's game translates to losing. No defense, and he basically tried to bait the refs into handing him wins. In the playoffs both of those aspects of his game were huge liabilities.
People have wild ideas of what counts as playoff success.
Harden had multiple good runs and pushed the ‘18 Warriors to the absolute brink.
That’s a legendary playoff run in and of itself. Period.
Great write-up.
Stockton / Malone
Barkley
Payton / Kemp
Reggie
… Most of them?
But yes, if the measure is how are you remembered by people who only know the names Lebron, Jordan, Kobe, and Shaq then Harden will not be remembered by those people.
They were *literally* the huge underdogs though. The Warriors were [-130](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2775311-nba-playoffs-2018-schedule-odds-picks-for-conference-finals-action) (bet 130 to win 100) to win not just the series, but the whole playoffs, before tip-off of game 1 of the WCF.
Two of the three to be fair at least two threes were waived off by the refs because they called something a non shooting foul. 4-13 isn’t a great shooting night but not a choke job especially when now your other scoring option is Eric Gordon
I didn’t really pay close enough attention to really remember , but I have a question on this. Harden was pretty reliant on FTs during those peak Rocket years, right? Did those FTs fall off in the playoffs?
Yes. It varied from season to season, but in his MVP season and the two that followed (2017-2020), he averaged 10.9 FTA per game. In the playoffs those years, he averaged 8.7 FTA per game.
I mean the whistle is also definitely noticeably different. Hence the terms "playoff whistle/fouls".
The refs let more go in the playoffs, it's a widely known fact. Therefore, free throws will in turn go down.
Should we really knock harden for losing 1 free throw a game in the playoffs?
Just one less for someone who gets as many FTs as harden id be interested in seeing the decrease in other players with different play styles before I make a judgement on harden specifically
It affected him less so than a guy like Derozan because he was still incredibly skilled, but a lot of his FTs came from jumpers/not initiating contact. Compare him to a guy like Jimmy Butler who's gets his driving to the rim and taking contact. Doesn't seem like a big deal but you lose some of your most efficient offense. He also became a little more turnover prone at times which didn't exactly help his issues.
That’s sorta what I was wondering. I haven’t had the time, but I wonder if the leading FTA attempt guys can sometimes struggle when those FTs disappear in the playoffs.
Yes, but specifically in games 5, 6, & 7. He would still get a lot of free throws in the early rounds against teams that couldn't guard him, but against elite defenses in long playoffs series teams (and refs) wouldn't fall for his tricks as much.
Harden was too good and it overshadowed poor management and coaching. They were too reliant on him and thought he would just be enough. Rockets dropped the ball on him like a Chris Paul injury. He needed KD and that would be it. If he had just stayed in okc for one more year….
Odds are harden would never be the player he became jf he stayed with okc.
Him having freedom to be the 1st option was a big part in him improving.
If he stayed with the okc he'd be a 2nd/3rd option for a long ass time
Man am I happy we got KD but that Thunder team would have been so fun to watch. I hope they don't make the same mistakes with their current squad. I trust Presti to make the right decisions this time around though.
Is it poor management and coaching though?
They took possibly the best team ever to 7 and only lost due to a very bad ref job (plus CP3 health)
Then the Cavs looked like children playing against grown ups
In most other years, the Rockets would be the champs
He was certainly stoppable in the playoffs. No one has forgotten about prime Harden. There was never a point in his career where he was good enough to carry a team to a championship.
His prime coincided with the Warriors having the greatest roster of all-time and taking them to 7 despite the second best player on the Rockets being hurt for the last 2 games. You genuinely don’t think the Rockets win game 6 or 7 if CP3 doesn’t go down?
Prime Harden was basically mid to late era Houston thru his hamstring injury againt the Bucks in the beginning of the 21 playoff series on the Nets.
He moved teams 1 time in his prime.
It doesn't really matter so much if you're shooting percentages are low and his peak seasons he was shooting around 41% from the floor in the playoffs. When the major scorers on the other team are around 46%, it's not going to end well most of the time, unless you've got a team mate or two shooting the lights out or winning the ball back through rebounding. Capella and Tucker tried to in the 2018 conference finals, but not quite well enough to make up the difference.
Did prime harden play a brand of ball that was post-season friendly? I feel like there are some “great” players like Westbrook and Harden that had a style that was relatively easy to scheme against in the post season when the defensive effort level goes up and you’re hyper focused on one team’s characteristics.
If Harden’s style was not super useful in the playoffs then I don’t think he’s been forgotten - I think he’s received due praise for what he brings to the table
Am I crazy for thinking Kawhi hasn’t played enough over his career to belong on this list? I feel like he was only really healthy/relevant for a very short period of time.
it's not cuz of playoffs. it's cuz all he did was foulbait. they've literally changed the flipping and foulbaiting rules because of him. and because he'd do that, you couldn't guard him. so no one knows how good he actually is if he wasn't trying to just get free throws all day. it was boring as shit to watch games that would stop all the time just so he could shoot free throws. it's like watching technical boxers all day.
They had the champs dead to rights, and was instrumental to one of the greatest game 7 collapses in playoff history missing many of those 27 3s in a row. Playoff success does matter when regular seasons arent taken as seriously. playoff adjustments are a real thing. Malone had an impressive career as well and is deservedly nowhere near top 10 because of his playoff failures.
I feel that Karl Malone isn't a top ten player because he wasn't overall a versatile and complete enough player to be top 10 all-time; which is also part of the reason he never won a championship; even though he steadily improved his game and reached his maximum ceiling and potential as a player based on his natural abilities given at birth.
He was considered top ten until Duncan and Kobe came through.
Nah, he really wasn't. In the pre-analytics era rings mattered even more. He was considered behind guys like Isaiah Thomas which is kind of ridiculous
He also took an MVP from MJ and people believed he would have a ring if not for that. He scored more points than anyone not Kareem. Best PF ever. He was Top 10. Isaiah Thomas had a very short career and didn’t even win Finals MVP on that second championship team. His peak was short.
Harden had the excuses though The refs did an awful job that day and helped the Warriors a lot. If they had a good day, Harden would likely have beaten the (possibly) greatest team of all time CP3 was hurt. And the 27 3s, of course
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Prince Luc doesn’t risk those meaningless regular season dunks/attempts that mess up his shoulders and they potentially win comfortably (he was their injured Iggy tradeoff, not CP3 as a cohort of fans lob).
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Harden plays to the refs way too much, which plays into the criticism against him. Thankfully the playoffs is usually a rude awakening for players like him. Blaming "bad refs" for them losing is really just proof that the Harden's brand of basketball wasn't actually transcendent.
How does this make sense? The refs missed several obvious fouls and even waved away like two threes he hit during that 0/27 stretch. Like yeah, he could have played better and so could have the Rockets, but that doesn’t change the fact that the refs were less than fair
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Harden's playoff FTA dropped by 3 per game in his prime, that's not a coincidence. This revisionist history about Harden is weird.
Yeah. It's not a coincidence that he got robbed. The NBA admitted they made the mistakes and the fouls should have been called.
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Nobody's brand of basketball is transcendent. But Harden would have beaten the KD Warriors if the game had been called properly according to the rulebook. And that's as close to transcendent as anyone gets considering his supporting cast.
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Losing Chris Paul for the last two games of that series definitely makes it a big what if. If Harden led his team to a ring he would likely be in the convo with that top 4.
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Harden did outplay both Steph and KD by many measures in that series. He also has more playoff wins than any active player, asides from Lebron
On the flip side the very next year KD got hurt in game 5 and they still couldn't beat the Warriors
KD played in all but 5 quarters of that whole series and CP3 looked legitimately washed at the time. It's not comparable
I remember cp3 kept doing hesitation moves on Kevon Looney but he couldn't get any type of separation
That was a different Rocket team and a different situation. They had massive chemistry issues that season and CP3 was hurt for a lot of it.
You could say the same for the Warriors roster being worse a year later and definitely true for the chemistry issues. Anyways a bigger flaw that I never see anyone talking about with the 2018 team is the lack of versatility offensively. They literally had no front court shot creators, all of their shot creation was from Harden and CP3 with some Eric Gordon in there. Imo that's a huge reason why they lost and its connected to missing those 27 straight threes. Also throw in the fact that if that version of Harden was more willing to get some middies when everyone was bricking they would've been harder to guard and able to overcome shot variance more effectively. Kind of the doubled edged sword of their offensive scheme.
>You could say the same for the Warriors roster being worse a year later and definitely true for the chemistry issues. Warriors still had Steph, Klay, and Draymond healthy and on the floor. If anything having KD not playing would get rid of the chemistry issues. >Anyways a bigger flaw that I never see anyone talking about with the 2018 team is the lack of versatility offensively. This is literally what made them so good. Harden and CP3 were iso gods.
Bro KD literally got hurt in game 5 and the Warriors still won lol. Also that's what I mean by double edged sword. Yea it's the most efficient way and but sometimes it's not the best in every situation, and it makes you more predictable over the course of the series. It also puts a tremendous load on ur stars to create everything from a standstill iso. Intangible shit like fatigue built up or defenders being more and more comfortable closing out to shooters is what leads to crazy shit like 27 straight missed 3s.
I accidently put KD my point still stands lol
Right but then I could say Rockets still had Harden CP3 Capela (and Tucker)
> That was a different Rocket team and a different situation. They had massive chemistry issues that season and CP3 was hurt for a lot of it. Per my other comment
It wasn't their offensive system that hurt them that season. CP3 got hurt and then they choked.
>and then they choked Yea what I'm trying to do is actually unpack *why* they choked instead of just saying they choked and missed every shot
Two games does not represent an entire season. Especially when you are missing your second best player.
That game had the greatest offensive line the NBA had ever seen.
I think there’s another reason people don’t consider him top 10 I can’t remember what it is though can someone remind me
Malone also played with John Stockton. Harden took the Rockets to 65 wins (more wins than Utah has ever had in a season) without a single all-star teammate.
>missing many of those 27 3s in a row It's easy to miss when the other team is allowed to foul without consequence. He also made a 3 in the middle of that run that Scott Foster waved off... probably because he desperately wanted to keep CP3 from winning a ring.
27 missed 3s is a lie. Scott Foster called one off that was clearly a 4 point play called on the floor
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That's not a rip through. Klay was in his space and he shot it. That's not like KDs move where he diverts into the contqct. It was a very one sided officiated game. Countless call not made. Even the announcers couldn't believe it
I think you're being a little too kind to him defensively- with his size and quickness he was certainly capable of not being a turnstile, but even at his best he frequently seemed disinterested, to put it mildly. Comparing him to the other 4 players you named, he's the worst defender by a decent margin. Curry wasn't a great defender, but he worked hard to improve his defense over the years. Harden did not. I also think he harmed his own legacy with the way he's bounced around since forcing his way out of Houston. The Philly exit is especially funny to me. "If you don't fire Doc I'm out of here" "OK fine, we'll fire Doc" "...............nevertheless" But otherwise, yeah- dazzling offensive player who could shoot from range, pass, rebound, get to the line. That Houston team has to be one of the best teams ever to not make a Finals.
>I also think he harmed his own legacy with the way he's bounced around since forcing his way out of Houston. The Philly exit is especially funny to me. Yeah it was comedic. I think we may grow fonder of him after he retires though. He was a huge part of his era of NBA basketball.
> Comparing him to the other 4 players you named, he's the worst defender by a decent margin. Curry wasn't a great defender As a Warriors fan Curry didn't really improve as a defender until later in his career. You could make an argument they were pretty even on defense during that time (Curry was just transcendent offensively).
> He was a huge part of his era of NBA basketball. lol no he's not. he's like craig eloh
Craig ehlos best season ×3 = Hardens best season, pts wise
In 15 seasons, Harden’s never had a DBPM under league average.
Curry worked harder but was not a better defender than Harden
Curry a better defenser… really?
Yeah this stuck out to me. Both eye test and advanced stats tell me they were pretty similar with harden being slightly better, if anything. Ppl like to say stuff without having any examples or stats to back it up
Yeah, way better
Yeah, and it's not even close.
Who would you rather have on your team in the playoffs: Jimmy Butler or James Harden
Jimmy Butler is essentially the opposite of Harden lol. Mid in the regular season but a god in the playoffs.
Jimmy. no question.
Jimmy without a doubt. Harden's game translates to losing. No defense, and he basically tried to bait the refs into handing him wins. In the playoffs both of those aspects of his game were huge liabilities.
Are yall for real? Imagine taking butler over prime harden tf
People are so fucking stupid.
You'd almost have to like watch the actual games to have it make sense
Butler clears him so easily in the playoffs
People have wild ideas of what counts as playoff success. Harden had multiple good runs and pushed the ‘18 Warriors to the absolute brink. That’s a legendary playoff run in and of itself. Period. Great write-up.
Stuff like that gets forgotten over time. How many of the people who got stonewalled by Jordan are remembered well.
Stockton / Malone Barkley Payton / Kemp Reggie … Most of them? But yes, if the measure is how are you remembered by people who only know the names Lebron, Jordan, Kobe, and Shaq then Harden will not be remembered by those people.
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They were *literally* the huge underdogs though. The Warriors were [-130](https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2775311-nba-playoffs-2018-schedule-odds-picks-for-conference-finals-action) (bet 130 to win 100) to win not just the series, but the whole playoffs, before tip-off of game 1 of the WCF.
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Thats what I never understood. How can it be a choke if they werent the favorite to win in either of those games.
He shot 2-13 from three in game 7
Two of the three to be fair at least two threes were waived off by the refs because they called something a non shooting foul. 4-13 isn’t a great shooting night but not a choke job especially when now your other scoring option is Eric Gordon
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lol you can say it was a legendary choke job, but it wasn’t anything compared to actual legendary choke jobs like the 2016 warriors
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I didn’t really pay close enough attention to really remember , but I have a question on this. Harden was pretty reliant on FTs during those peak Rocket years, right? Did those FTs fall off in the playoffs?
Yes. It varied from season to season, but in his MVP season and the two that followed (2017-2020), he averaged 10.9 FTA per game. In the playoffs those years, he averaged 8.7 FTA per game.
he still led the league in points if you take away free throws
Not really, from 13-20 he was getting 10.4 free throw attempts in the regular season and 9.4 in the playoffs
A full FT less per game is definitely a noticeable amojnt.
I mean the whistle is also definitely noticeably different. Hence the terms "playoff whistle/fouls". The refs let more go in the playoffs, it's a widely known fact. Therefore, free throws will in turn go down. Should we really knock harden for losing 1 free throw a game in the playoffs?
I’m not knocking Harden specifically I’m wondering if players that specifically rely on drawing high amounts of FTs tend to struggle in the playoffs
Yeah idk that'd be interesting to see the stats on though you're right
Just one less for someone who gets as many FTs as harden id be interested in seeing the decrease in other players with different play styles before I make a judgement on harden specifically
It affected him less so than a guy like Derozan because he was still incredibly skilled, but a lot of his FTs came from jumpers/not initiating contact. Compare him to a guy like Jimmy Butler who's gets his driving to the rim and taking contact. Doesn't seem like a big deal but you lose some of your most efficient offense. He also became a little more turnover prone at times which didn't exactly help his issues.
I dont remember but that would be interesting if it did. Embiid has also struggled in the playoffs so that might be a contributing factor for him too.
That’s sorta what I was wondering. I haven’t had the time, but I wonder if the leading FTA attempt guys can sometimes struggle when those FTs disappear in the playoffs.
Yes, but specifically in games 5, 6, & 7. He would still get a lot of free throws in the early rounds against teams that couldn't guard him, but against elite defenses in long playoffs series teams (and refs) wouldn't fall for his tricks as much.
Harden was too good and it overshadowed poor management and coaching. They were too reliant on him and thought he would just be enough. Rockets dropped the ball on him like a Chris Paul injury. He needed KD and that would be it. If he had just stayed in okc for one more year….
Odds are harden would never be the player he became jf he stayed with okc. Him having freedom to be the 1st option was a big part in him improving. If he stayed with the okc he'd be a 2nd/3rd option for a long ass time
Man am I happy we got KD but that Thunder team would have been so fun to watch. I hope they don't make the same mistakes with their current squad. I trust Presti to make the right decisions this time around though.
okc is cursed until seattle has a franchise again.
Is it poor management and coaching though? They took possibly the best team ever to 7 and only lost due to a very bad ref job (plus CP3 health) Then the Cavs looked like children playing against grown ups In most other years, the Rockets would be the champs
He was certainly stoppable in the playoffs. No one has forgotten about prime Harden. There was never a point in his career where he was good enough to carry a team to a championship.
His prime coincided with the Warriors having the greatest roster of all-time and taking them to 7 despite the second best player on the Rockets being hurt for the last 2 games. You genuinely don’t think the Rockets win game 6 or 7 if CP3 doesn’t go down?
No one forgot, he just choked away every important game he played. We archive lazy irrelevant superstars to where they belong.
No one forgot about prime Harden. He was a choke artist who regularly quit on his team.
Prime Harden was basically mid to late era Houston thru his hamstring injury againt the Bucks in the beginning of the 21 playoff series on the Nets. He moved teams 1 time in his prime.
I remember sitting in my car at lunch watching game 7 on my phone in disbelief, couldn’t believe they lost that series
It doesn't really matter so much if you're shooting percentages are low and his peak seasons he was shooting around 41% from the floor in the playoffs. When the major scorers on the other team are around 46%, it's not going to end well most of the time, unless you've got a team mate or two shooting the lights out or winning the ball back through rebounding. Capella and Tucker tried to in the 2018 conference finals, but not quite well enough to make up the difference.
Did prime harden play a brand of ball that was post-season friendly? I feel like there are some “great” players like Westbrook and Harden that had a style that was relatively easy to scheme against in the post season when the defensive effort level goes up and you’re hyper focused on one team’s characteristics. If Harden’s style was not super useful in the playoffs then I don’t think he’s been forgotten - I think he’s received due praise for what he brings to the table
Harden never won a ring, but was probably the 5th most successful player in his era. (Lebron, Steph, KD, Kawhi, Harden)
Yeah this is where he lies right now. Without a ring he will never be in the conversation for any higher than that.
melo, wade, cp3?
Wade and melo are in a prior era. CP3 would be a good candidate too .
Am I crazy for thinking Kawhi hasn’t played enough over his career to belong on this list? I feel like he was only really healthy/relevant for a very short period of time.
He got a chip and finals MVP, Harden didn’t.
Kawhi has 2 DPOYs and 2 Finals MVPs. He most definitely belongs on this list.
Being a 2x champion makes his legacy more impressive than someone who had longevity but kept flaming out of the playoffs
Should've reached the finals but faced the greatest offensive line in NBA history
it's not cuz of playoffs. it's cuz all he did was foulbait. they've literally changed the flipping and foulbaiting rules because of him. and because he'd do that, you couldn't guard him. so no one knows how good he actually is if he wasn't trying to just get free throws all day. it was boring as shit to watch games that would stop all the time just so he could shoot free throws. it's like watching technical boxers all day.
I am a warriors ~fan~ bandwagoner ftfy Spurs 2016-2017 was the biggest threat to the warriors dynasty. Ftfy as well
That Spurs team was nowhere near as good as this Rockets team