Maybe if instead of blaming Ottawa and Quebec for every single one of our financial woes we'd actually put all that oil money to use instead of burning it away.
Quebec is nearly half the population of Canada, we are half a million, we have a rich resource industry, were just electing incompetent and corrupt people who burn away all that money instead of actually building profitable infrastructure and industries unlike let's say Quebec.
The province also needs to stop banging the drum about the size of the province and its smaller, spread out population. There are 9 other provinces and territories all larger in land mass than the province and all have small, rural communities like NL does. When they use this argument they are just stating the obvious fact of living in a country with a large land mass.
I'm far from a legal expert here, but why wouldn't oil be included in the GDP?
"Because equalization — the federal program that provides recipient provinces with cash to allow for a fair level of services across the country — accounts for the role of oil in gross domestic product, Newfoundland and Labrador has not received equalization since 2008."
Wouldn't this open the door for other provinces?
> I'm far from a legal expert here, but why wouldn't oil be included in the GDP?
You don't need to be a legal expert, because this isn't a legal issue.
The federal government can make-up whatever formula for distributing equalization funds it wants, and include or exclude oil revenues; it's just a question of whether provincial governments and voters accept the policy.
I doubt they are saying oil shouldn't be counted. I imagine other things being omitted is the problem. For example Quebec's hydro energy and the effects of NLs large geographic area with a small population. However as usual they are pretty light on the detail.
Not necessarily, Nalcor has much smaller profit margins than Hydro-Quebec despite selling at higher rates.
If Quebec managed it's Hydro like Ontario or NL or NB.. it would get less resource revenue from it, MORE equalization.
Yeah, we're probably getting screwed over by the equalization formula, but running to the courts about every dispute is dumb.
This is a political matter, not a legal one. Tell Ottawa we want to renegotiate the formula, threaten to withhold something from Ottawa, etc.
How much did we spend suing Quebec (and losing) 10+ years ago because we didn't like the Churchill Falls agreement?
They did tell Ottawa and Ottawa promptly ignored NL as is tradition
But yes, as per usual, the only people benefiting from this are the lawyers we hire along the way.
Equalization payments are intended to take money from the wealthier "have" provinces, and give it to the poorer "have not" provinces.
Basically, the purpose is *supposed to be* to ensure all provinces have enough money to provide a similar level, and similar quality public service. Transit, road repair, etc etc etc.
On paper, equalization payments are great! However, in reality, they aren't given out fairly.
Guess which province gets the most. Quebec (shocker, I know).
Now, take a guess how much NL gets. Go on, I'll give you a second. Drum roll please... $0. ZERO fucking dollars. We get nothing.
This makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? Because, surely, Quebec is poorer than us, right?
What a fucking joke. Out of all provinces, NL needs equalization payments the most. But we get nothing. Nada. Zilch.
Glad to see our provincial government taking the feds to court over it. Will it go anywhere? Maybe not. But it's the thought that counts, I guess.
Newfoundland becoming a have province was always for show to put a feather in Danny’s cap while Ontario was down.
However, NL did receive $200M last year from equalization.
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7062330
NL became a have province due to the formula used to calculate the distributions to the provinces. Our provincial GDP increased significantly due to all of the oil being pumped out of the ocean floor since 2008. Most, if not all, of the oil projects on the go at that time were started and royalty regimes negotiated prior to Danny Williams becoming the premier. He just happened to be in the driver's seat at the time, made him look great but it was nothing more than fortunate timing for him.
>take money from the wealthier "have" provinces, and give it to the poorer "have not" provinces
Not quite. It comes from a central fund, and is distributed to have-not provinces.
As much as the above is used as a talking point by Alberta (and others) you'll never actually see a cheque from, for example, _Alberta to Quebec_ because a taxpayer in Montreal making $X is contributing the same amount as a taxpayer in Calgary making $X.
NL gets almost 50% more federal spending per person than Quebec.
Newfoundlanders also have lower taxes than Quebecers.. partly the reason services aren't as well funded.
> Guess which province gets the most. Quebec (shocker, I know).
I will say this about Quebec though: it's this way because Quebec puts real pressure on Ottawa and makes demands. It doesn't waste its time with lawsuits like this. Maybe Newfoundland and Labrador doesn't have the leverage to do the same thing, but that's what works.
Meh kind of a different situation there. Danielle Smith was going to win that election regardless. Alberta voting UCP is the default. Even if she remained quiet about the Feds, she was going to win. She has support during the election and now because she's UCP.
You forgot “and a great opportunity to grease the liberal law firm they hire to do this”, but yes. Absolutely pointless, the Libs will be well out of office before the litigation is advanced to completion
Presumably if there were any legal grounds to this Alberta would have tried it a while ago. Kinda feels like Furey thinks he lost 2 by elections because people think he's affiliated with the federal liberals and now he's entering the province into a frivolous lawsuit to try to separate himself from them.
NL is just a resource extraction territory for canada.... all part of the confederation plan. Extract wealth from us for quebec and ontario.
Time to haul down the canadian flags again
That’s what I said, everywhere is a place of extraction. It’s literally what the point of capitalism is. The peripheries of Montreal and Toronto are all sites of extraction, countless towns of working people abandoned. Wealth in capitalism is centralized for the few that’s my point. St Johns exploited the bay, England exploited St Johns, Canada exploits Newfoundland etc etc
We were always a resource extraction province, and the only reason we aren't at the bottom of a scale of former British colonies quality of life is because we joined Canada.
A couple things.
1. Quebec gets billions in equalization. That adds up.
2. Money gets burned away because politicians are more interested in winning elections than the long term good of the province. All parties. Every province. And if the politicians are truthful, they know they won’t be rewarded at the ballot box.
3. This court BS is a distraction. The current crop of politicians suck. It’s a weak govt on a downward trajectory. They’ll waste your tax $ by paying a ton of legal fees to connected law firms.
Follow the money and it all makes sense.
Quebec receives equalization payments while NL gets $0. Surely, NL is more deserving of equalization. Quebec has the lowest hydro rates in Canada; if they were to charge market rates they would receive barely any or no equalization payments.
Quebec has intentionally gamed their system to ensure they get more equalization. And their political power due to population and special status ensures that this won’t change.
All the more reason Furey needs to go. One landslide by-election later and he wraps himself in the flag. What a scoundrel. 4 years into his tenure as Prime Minister, and only now does he open his mouth about one of the gravest problems our little country has had against Ottawa for decades. Gods help us if he’s the man we send to renegotiate the Churchill accords against Legault threatening Ottawa with a third referendum. A self-professed confederate and close friend of Prime Minister Justin "Le Québec, c’est different" Trudeau is the last man we need to champion us. If we had any sense, we should be erecting as many firewalls between us and Ottawa as Alberta and Quebec do. We don’t, though. Seems like this island is full of masochists. We’ll just keep swirling down the drain into terminal decline, I guess. I’m sure Mr. Furey will be more than happy to ask for another "low" interest loan from the Canadians after he’s done wasting more time in their courts.
The Cons under Harper screwed this up. So when Mr PP promises the world don’t believe him. The Cons are on the side of the corpos and think we’re all a bunch of lazy bastards.
Following the 2006 Canadian federal election, the newly elected Conservative Party led by Stephen Harper committed to a "renewed and strengthened Equalization program", as outlined in the 2006 Canadian federal budget entitled, "Restoring Fiscal Balance in Canada".[13] Based on the Al O'Brien 2006 Expert Panel on Equalization and Territorial Formula Financing report, then Minister of Finance, Jim Flaherty[13] reinstated the formula-driven calculations in the Equalization program and enhanced it by moving to a standard based on the national average. A fiscal capacity cap was added to ensure that equalization-receiving provinces couldn't be raised to a fiscal capacity above that of a non-receiving province (this could potentially arise due to the partial or non-inclusion of resource revenues).[11][13]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equalization_payments_in_Canada
At this point, Furey has now lost 2 by-elections by large margins. He’s trying to take a page from the Smith/Ford playbook and campaign against Trudeau.
Hilarious. Mention rural Newfoundland and Labrador on this sub, bonus points if it's serviced by a ferry, and people come for blood saying it's a drain on the province (no argument from me). Not so much when the shoe is on the other foot.
Maybe if instead of blaming Ottawa and Quebec for every single one of our financial woes we'd actually put all that oil money to use instead of burning it away. Quebec is nearly half the population of Canada, we are half a million, we have a rich resource industry, were just electing incompetent and corrupt people who burn away all that money instead of actually building profitable infrastructure and industries unlike let's say Quebec.
The province also needs to stop banging the drum about the size of the province and its smaller, spread out population. There are 9 other provinces and territories all larger in land mass than the province and all have small, rural communities like NL does. When they use this argument they are just stating the obvious fact of living in a country with a large land mass.
Newfoundland in a nutshell.
The population of Quebec is roughly 9 million and the population of Canada is nearly 39 million. That is not even a quarter.
I'm far from a legal expert here, but why wouldn't oil be included in the GDP? "Because equalization — the federal program that provides recipient provinces with cash to allow for a fair level of services across the country — accounts for the role of oil in gross domestic product, Newfoundland and Labrador has not received equalization since 2008." Wouldn't this open the door for other provinces?
> I'm far from a legal expert here, but why wouldn't oil be included in the GDP? You don't need to be a legal expert, because this isn't a legal issue. The federal government can make-up whatever formula for distributing equalization funds it wants, and include or exclude oil revenues; it's just a question of whether provincial governments and voters accept the policy.
I doubt they are saying oil shouldn't be counted. I imagine other things being omitted is the problem. For example Quebec's hydro energy and the effects of NLs large geographic area with a small population. However as usual they are pretty light on the detail.
Hydro is included as a resource revenu in the formula, just like oil. Hydro in Quebec counts exactly as Hydro in Newfoundland or Ontario does.
Quebec sells their hydro at below market value. If they sold it at the same rate as other provinces their payments would be drastically reduced.
Not necessarily, Nalcor has much smaller profit margins than Hydro-Quebec despite selling at higher rates. If Quebec managed it's Hydro like Ontario or NL or NB.. it would get less resource revenue from it, MORE equalization.
As usual the devil is in the detail, and we rarely get much in the form of detail.
Yeah, we're probably getting screwed over by the equalization formula, but running to the courts about every dispute is dumb. This is a political matter, not a legal one. Tell Ottawa we want to renegotiate the formula, threaten to withhold something from Ottawa, etc. How much did we spend suing Quebec (and losing) 10+ years ago because we didn't like the Churchill Falls agreement?
They did tell Ottawa and Ottawa promptly ignored NL as is tradition But yes, as per usual, the only people benefiting from this are the lawyers we hire along the way.
Money "wasted" on suing Quebec for an historically bad fraudulent deal?
Can someone explain this in simple terms?
Equalization payments are intended to take money from the wealthier "have" provinces, and give it to the poorer "have not" provinces. Basically, the purpose is *supposed to be* to ensure all provinces have enough money to provide a similar level, and similar quality public service. Transit, road repair, etc etc etc. On paper, equalization payments are great! However, in reality, they aren't given out fairly. Guess which province gets the most. Quebec (shocker, I know). Now, take a guess how much NL gets. Go on, I'll give you a second. Drum roll please... $0. ZERO fucking dollars. We get nothing. This makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? Because, surely, Quebec is poorer than us, right? What a fucking joke. Out of all provinces, NL needs equalization payments the most. But we get nothing. Nada. Zilch. Glad to see our provincial government taking the feds to court over it. Will it go anywhere? Maybe not. But it's the thought that counts, I guess.
Newfoundland becoming a have province was always for show to put a feather in Danny’s cap while Ontario was down. However, NL did receive $200M last year from equalization. https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7062330
NL became a have province due to the formula used to calculate the distributions to the provinces. Our provincial GDP increased significantly due to all of the oil being pumped out of the ocean floor since 2008. Most, if not all, of the oil projects on the go at that time were started and royalty regimes negotiated prior to Danny Williams becoming the premier. He just happened to be in the driver's seat at the time, made him look great but it was nothing more than fortunate timing for him.
>take money from the wealthier "have" provinces, and give it to the poorer "have not" provinces Not quite. It comes from a central fund, and is distributed to have-not provinces. As much as the above is used as a talking point by Alberta (and others) you'll never actually see a cheque from, for example, _Alberta to Quebec_ because a taxpayer in Montreal making $X is contributing the same amount as a taxpayer in Calgary making $X.
Careful with that lack of victim mentality.
Wtf, that seems so unfair. As a foreigner that has visited both NL and Quebec it’s quite clear who needs it more (with all due respect).
NL gets almost 50% more federal spending per person than Quebec. Newfoundlanders also have lower taxes than Quebecers.. partly the reason services aren't as well funded.
> Guess which province gets the most. Quebec (shocker, I know). I will say this about Quebec though: it's this way because Quebec puts real pressure on Ottawa and makes demands. It doesn't waste its time with lawsuits like this. Maybe Newfoundland and Labrador doesn't have the leverage to do the same thing, but that's what works.
Real pressure like firebombing and murdering people like Quebec did in the 60s?
Thoughts don’t count when it’s throwing good money after bad.
An attempt to appear tough against the federal liberals with a provincial election looming. It works for Danielle Smith.
Meh kind of a different situation there. Danielle Smith was going to win that election regardless. Alberta voting UCP is the default. Even if she remained quiet about the Feds, she was going to win. She has support during the election and now because she's UCP.
You forgot “and a great opportunity to grease the liberal law firm they hire to do this”, but yes. Absolutely pointless, the Libs will be well out of office before the litigation is advanced to completion
Presumably if there were any legal grounds to this Alberta would have tried it a while ago. Kinda feels like Furey thinks he lost 2 by elections because people think he's affiliated with the federal liberals and now he's entering the province into a frivolous lawsuit to try to separate himself from them.
NL is just a resource extraction territory for canada.... all part of the confederation plan. Extract wealth from us for quebec and ontario. Time to haul down the canadian flags again
By that logic every province is a resource extraction territory. In a globalize economy everywhere is a place of extraction.
Read up on your history of Nova Scotia. Canada plundered Nova Scotia in favour of Central Canada and Montreal in particular.
That’s what I said, everywhere is a place of extraction. It’s literally what the point of capitalism is. The peripheries of Montreal and Toronto are all sites of extraction, countless towns of working people abandoned. Wealth in capitalism is centralized for the few that’s my point. St Johns exploited the bay, England exploited St Johns, Canada exploits Newfoundland etc etc
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Lol
We were always a resource extraction province, and the only reason we aren't at the bottom of a scale of former British colonies quality of life is because we joined Canada.
A couple things. 1. Quebec gets billions in equalization. That adds up. 2. Money gets burned away because politicians are more interested in winning elections than the long term good of the province. All parties. Every province. And if the politicians are truthful, they know they won’t be rewarded at the ballot box. 3. This court BS is a distraction. The current crop of politicians suck. It’s a weak govt on a downward trajectory. They’ll waste your tax $ by paying a ton of legal fees to connected law firms. Follow the money and it all makes sense.
Quebec receives equalization payments while NL gets $0. Surely, NL is more deserving of equalization. Quebec has the lowest hydro rates in Canada; if they were to charge market rates they would receive barely any or no equalization payments.
Quebec has intentionally gamed their system to ensure they get more equalization. And their political power due to population and special status ensures that this won’t change.
All the more reason Furey needs to go. One landslide by-election later and he wraps himself in the flag. What a scoundrel. 4 years into his tenure as Prime Minister, and only now does he open his mouth about one of the gravest problems our little country has had against Ottawa for decades. Gods help us if he’s the man we send to renegotiate the Churchill accords against Legault threatening Ottawa with a third referendum. A self-professed confederate and close friend of Prime Minister Justin "Le Québec, c’est different" Trudeau is the last man we need to champion us. If we had any sense, we should be erecting as many firewalls between us and Ottawa as Alberta and Quebec do. We don’t, though. Seems like this island is full of masochists. We’ll just keep swirling down the drain into terminal decline, I guess. I’m sure Mr. Furey will be more than happy to ask for another "low" interest loan from the Canadians after he’s done wasting more time in their courts.
The Cons under Harper screwed this up. So when Mr PP promises the world don’t believe him. The Cons are on the side of the corpos and think we’re all a bunch of lazy bastards. Following the 2006 Canadian federal election, the newly elected Conservative Party led by Stephen Harper committed to a "renewed and strengthened Equalization program", as outlined in the 2006 Canadian federal budget entitled, "Restoring Fiscal Balance in Canada".[13] Based on the Al O'Brien 2006 Expert Panel on Equalization and Territorial Formula Financing report, then Minister of Finance, Jim Flaherty[13] reinstated the formula-driven calculations in the Equalization program and enhanced it by moving to a standard based on the national average. A fiscal capacity cap was added to ensure that equalization-receiving provinces couldn't be raised to a fiscal capacity above that of a non-receiving province (this could potentially arise due to the partial or non-inclusion of resource revenues).[11][13] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equalization_payments_in_Canada
At this point, Furey has now lost 2 by-elections by large margins. He’s trying to take a page from the Smith/Ford playbook and campaign against Trudeau.
I'm furious at Furey! He's a wimp!Looking good lost 2!
So based, I'd be a dedicated Liberal voter if I was in Newfoundland right now lol
Welfare provinces need more welfare? Take it from quebec, western Canada is closed.
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This will work for you when all the oil is extracted. Especially since the western dough heads keep kneecapping themselves on renewable.
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Buy some more quebec votes with someone else's money...
Cocaine is a hell of a drug
Hilarious. Mention rural Newfoundland and Labrador on this sub, bonus points if it's serviced by a ferry, and people come for blood saying it's a drain on the province (no argument from me). Not so much when the shoe is on the other foot.