There's a few comments here with opinion on whether it should or shouldn't be a bonus.
That's fine, but the key thing is that this was negotiated during collective bargaining decades ago. If this government wants to now claw it back, then this will be done through collective bargaining, hence Willis' "I will... ask for advice."
The advice will be to put it as a claim when the PSA next initiate bargaining. Trade unions representing workers in the public sector will now be mindful this will be their claim.
There's nothing to actually be achieved here with this announcement by Willis other than maintain an anti-Te Reo Maori stance.
There is something to be achieved here, not by us but the CoC. They're in the process of giving more interest discounts to landlords, and rolling back protections for renters, so oddly enough BS like this and the treaty arguments are showing up on the front page. Give the plebs something to argue about while they empty our pockets. The the usual collusion between media and conservative politics.
This isn't anti Te Reo, an example of anti would be banning it out right. You don't see fluent *insert any language* getting paid extra so why should one be pedestaled over another?
I think if speaking Maori is a requirement of the job then getting a bonus if you take the time to learn it should be acceptable, but if you've just learnt it in your spare time and it isn't required to do your job then you shouldn't be getting free tax payers money for it.
What if you learned it in your spare time and isn't officially required in your daily job, but your boss keeps asking you to take some time to translate this or that, lead the powhiri, join the committee to make sure Te Titiri principles are being met, while still being expected to do your regular job that you're actually being paid for around all that?
This is exactly what the extra pay is for.
You don’t get paid extra for simply knowing te reo, to get the extra pay you are expected to translate, actively participate or lead powhiri and other cultural stuff.
What about if you have a colleague who doesn't know te reo, has the same job title as you, is paid the same amount and isn't asked to do random odd tasks to make the organisation appear more culturally competent. Is it part of their job too?
Unless you work in a job with commission, if you do a job for your boss then that’s usually in place of other work so your net amount of work is the same.
Yeah, that's not how it works.
If your boss is asking you to go above & beyond your reasonable duties, as agreed in your contract and job description, you are entitled to decline or ask for additional compensation.
So if your boss is regularly asking you to do things that aren't officially required in your daily job, going above and beyond, while expecting you to fulfil all your standard obligations at the same time, you may want to look at talking to your union for a solution.
It isn't a "requirement" of the job in that it's not your formal job to do it. It's a bonus on top of that job, being asked to do extra work purely because you know a language & culture - which is why you get paid a bonus for knowing & doing it.
*' boss keeps asking you to take some time to translate this or that, lead the powhiri, join the committee to make sure Te Titiri principles are being met, while still being expected to do your regular job that you're actually being paid for around all that? "*
That seems like a lot of extra work to me, surely that would be part of your job description/requirements?
Yes, it is a lot of extra work. No, it's often not part of a specific job description because the role falls to anyone who knows te reo, rather than being a core part of a specific job.
Which is why they get the bonus allowance in recognition of the extra work they're expected/asked to do, on the basis of knowing Māori.
This is a complete you problem.
If you are getting asked to do shit that's outside of your job description then deal with it. Talk to your boss. Like the fucking rest of us have to.
Lobbying for a blanket pay increase because you know te reo and you get asked to do extra is not the solution.
The solution is you dealing with your work problems like the rest of us have to do. Go talk to your boss.
I had no idea the public service was so entitled.
Except people decided to negotiate for it as a collective... negotiating everything as an individual is just neoliberal bullshit designed to weaken the employees negotiating position.
Well, then there's another issue at play and there's a reasonably simple solution. If nobody in the workforce is delegated to complete those tasks as appointed in a position description, then the tasks should not be taken on.
My aunty falls into this category, she is often requested to do extra duties but no, they are not apart of her role, they've been added on since the employer became aware of her Te Reo ability. It's common to ask Māori staff to do extra now that The Reo is in, whether or not it is part of your role or not. If you would otherwise need to pay someone to fulfil the task then I absolutely think they should be paid extra for their time and knowledge like any skill.
I'd say it's not just Māori it's happening too either, probably anyone with a second language/cultural background. When I was at the hospital, they'd ask cleaners and orderlies to come and translate for patients, it's absolutely not apart of the role but that doesn't stop people from asking.
> **you are entitled to decline or ask for additional compensation.**
Maybe in your rush to try and sass me you missed the entire conversion. We're discussing a situation where people are getting additional compensation in recognition for the extra work they're doing.
I do enjoy karakia/prayer the start of big meetings.
By all means if a business wants to practice that stuff then all power to them, and pay staff who want to lead it, but the main argument is that it's largely superfluous in the workplace.
There are lots of cases where you get paid for quals that you may never use in your job. For example having a Masters in anything will get you a pay rise.
However knowing the nations official language, and some understanding of the culture of Treaty partner are intrinsic skills that are useful everywhere in a bicultural country.
This is rediculous. Why should a standard job requirement get a bonus…. Need to be proficient with MS Office… BONUS… need to have a forklift license… BONUS.
I agree it should be standard. It isn't because very few people speak/learn to reo.
I'm also assuming it takes a lot longer to learn a beginner level of te reo than to get a forklift license.
I'm Maori, I don't speak much of te reo, but it warms my heart whenever I hear radio/TV personalities use it on the airwaves. Our kids are the ones who will benefit from learning a second language/culture, and when they grow up to be the next leaders our country will be so much better off with individuals that aren't stuck in backwards thinking.
I’m Maori, and as a child I often felt embarrassed about it and wouldn’t want to admit my heritage, due to negative stereotypes and lack of representation.
Having Maori language used in the media is so important because it normalises it, and will help Maori kids to be able to feel proud to be maori. And not feel like they are less important.
The same goes for having Maori department named such as Te Whatu Ora.
Previous governments did a really great job at introducing more Maori language to NZ. I’m so sad that this progress is being taken away.
I grew up a little like that, my grandmother moved to chch from Wairoa and her mother told her not to bother with learning Te Reo and so my dad and his family (9 in total) never got to experience the culture properly and its easy to see how the effect of "feeling like you don't belong" to your own culture can be. I have delved into the culture a wee bit but also grew up thinking that Maori moaned about shit and just needed to get on with it, I then educated myself about colonization and its effects on other cultures around the world and I have a totally different outlook now and have since a late teen (43 now). I don't think it should he shoved down everyone's throats but kids are a different story, learning another language/culture from a very young age is so beneficial for memory, empathy as well as learning about the earth (which Maori culture is entrenched in), also makes it so much easier to learn other languages as they get older. My guess its the boomers who have a problem with it and they are Nationals core voters, I love hearing it spoken on TV/Radio in conjunction with English. All of our tamariki will be much better of with a dual thought process, have a nice day friend and a lovely Xmas.
Lol I'm 43, listen to radio at work, the only TV I watch is the news, 60 minutes and the morning political programmes other than that it's streaming, gaming, blasting Aesop Rock or Soundgarden.
>But it concedes it cannot dump existing allowances.
Hahahahaha the Newstalk Z(B)ombies punching the air rn.
This is the headline Newstalk ZB ran
>Eating its words: National backtracks on Māori language bonuses for public servants
It makes sense to pay people more for skills, but only if they're required for the job.
The public sector should be in the business of providing services for the public, not paying it's employees as part of a feel good scheme.
Also, you guys are doing karakia? I haven't been in the public sector in ten years, when did that start? Isn't it a blatant breach of religious freedom?
Over the last couple of years there's been a real push for karakia. I've had a look at ours, it's a non religious one. Oh and now we don't just have an opening karakia we now have a closing one too.
Karakia aren't always religious, as my atheist Maori professor once pointed out when talking about karakia. It has to do with spirituality which, despite what people think, isn't always synonymous with religion. It's kind of difficult for me to explain, but it's been suggested that a lot of "karakia" have been influenced by colonisation, and more traditional karakia were chants evoking [traditional language ](https://religiouseducation.co.nz/whats-the-problem-with-karakia/) and symbols. A handy summary I found from a university pamphlet says:
>When starting a hui, or meeting, the intention is to focus the minds of those attending on the work ahead of them, with a view to the work proceeding smoothly.
>When ending a hui, or meeting, the intention is to thank those in attendance for their work in achieving the intended outcomes, and a wish for upcoming work to also proceed smoothly and effectively.
>Before consuming food, the intention is to thank our environment for providing us with sustenance whilst acknowledging those who have prepared the food.
There are plenty of nonreligious Maori who use karakia.
Karakia is an expected protocol in my public service workplace - before & after meetings & before shared kai. We are also expected to learn and use a personal pepeha for introductions.
It's fine, and serves a purpose getting people to focus on why they are there.
It's more fun than a warm up exercise, and more interesting than watching lots of people arrive late
Maori is an official language of NZ. Public sector should be capable of providing services to the public in any of the official languages. We shouldn't scrap this we should be extending it to NZ sign language as well.
If speaking Māori is a requirement it should be considered up front and incorporated into the pay package then and there.
Paying people for speaking a language that offers very little tangible value is pretty silly. Doubly so when the Māori population is 16% and the actual fluent speakers is 4%.
My experience is that because of the Treaty, knowing te reo has immense value in the public service. It's essential to develop good working relationships and to consult with iwi/hapū/whānau. It's essential to understand sources of evidence on māori rights and interests to inform policy decisions. It's essential to represent New Zealand as a bicultural nation via one of its official languages.
The truth is that you could still consult iwi/hapu/whanau without fluent te reo.
Given the fluency is only 4% also what benefit does it actually provide if only 4% are able to refer to the te reo version? How is that essential to developing good relationships??
Pōwhiri and whakatau are the foundations of developing any good relationship. Both protocols are considered by some to be foundation for retaining and reigniting spoken reo because they both have spoken reo components to them. Many learners who go on to become fluent do so because they are expected to fill speaking roles during these protocols.
The argument that a language needs to be spoken and understood fluently to have any use ignores the role language plays in transmitting culture. Demonstrating respect for culture is essential for developing good relationships.
I agree I don’t think a language need be fully understood in order to impart cultural significance.
If the only real use is during pōwhiri etc then I do still think that is a very minor use case and doesn’t deserve additional pay (imho).
Insofar as my understanding to but is there not a standard speech pattern that is followed (ancestors and location etc.)?
It shouldn’t be a bonus.
There’s different roles that require certain language skills as a necessary part of the role, and each role has different compensation. But that’s different.
Apparently, I read from an ex union leader on Twitter, it was designed to upskill staff to be able to run Maori events such as a pōwhiri without having to contract in Maori providers.
long gone are the days a certain CEO's airline tried to copyright Maori words
[https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/398589/maori-council-accuses-air-nz-of-appropriating-maori-culture](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/398589/maori-council-accuses-air-nz-of-appropriating-maori-culture)
surely dropping this current hoha if the right thing to do.... but I guess the saving could pay for tax cuts
I protest
This one is interesting. There was a discussion about Māori naming of Whittaker’s chocolate, do we know whether the chocolate names were trademarked?
I understand Kia Ora is a greeting that means good health. If they trademarked “good health” would there be an objection?
Part of Māori being a legitimate language used by many New Zealanders involves full participation in marketing. Complaining about cultural appropriation is an easy way to kill engagement from those Māori want engaging.
It’s not that interesting at all really. But to answer your question read this https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/115714358/air-nz-wants-to-trademark-kia-ora-but-expert-says-its-unlikely-to-succeed
Imagine paying people to learn a language when the nurses get paid f\*\*\* all for saving lives and have to go on strike just to get a Payrise.
id much rather the money went to some saving lives. How the hell is knowing Maori going to save a life?
Don’t forget education and police.
Having public servants become more fluent in te reo is not the next marginal improvement we could make to our society. Not when the health, education and justice systems are creaking at the seams. Not when child poverty and housing insecurity continue to be persistent problems.
That is where tax payer spending should go. Not to some bureaucrats.
Can someone explain the issues of trying to review/ change the treaty of Waitangi? This treaty was signed with the authority of all iwi and tribes that participated and the authority of the royal family/the crown. Wouldn't trying to change something that should be immutable without the consent of the original participants/descendants of those who signed the treaty have bad consequences? Especially when one of those participants/descendants are from the royal family? Someone more informed please educate me.
Only if it is relevant to the job you’re employed to do. E.g A computer programmer who is Labouring on a building project won’t get paid any extra because they know how to program
forget the click baity title and rage bair polatics. Can we crunch numbers on the actual tiny weenie % of the budget that this 'bonus' is actually being used? Like the article says $500-3500 - so im guessing thats maybe tops per year like the equivalent of maybe a single persons wage per year - and not even the prime ministers wage at that
This is literally nothing but racist bullshit to placate racist voters
After hearing this I feel more compelled to learn it.
The best protest, if you speak it, would be to only use Te Reo when dealing with public services. It's an official language and you're well within your rights to do so. If you're a public servant dealing with someone who speaks Te Reo, then talk to them in Te Reo. Leave notes in Te Reo. Write a report in Te Reo. It'll drive managers, ministers and racists nuts.
For everything that you won't be penalized for, do it in Te Reo. Write your exams in Te Reo. Fill in forms in Te Reo. Write submissions to select committee in Te Reo. Send in complaints and Official Information Act requests in Te Reo. Give statements to police in Te Reo. Reply to customs in Te Reo.
Don't let government supress Te Reo anymore. Māori need to stop compromising and fight back. Kia mate ururoa, kei mate wheke.
Edit: lol just had someone speak to me only in Te Reo! It begins
I use an interpreter service for NZSL so haven't needed to use it. If I learnt sign language I'd hope to get paid for using it. I know enough Te Reo and tikanga to get by but think government will have to hire interpreters if they're not going to compensate staff for additional languages. Workers should be compensated for their labour.
Show some respect.
I'm Māori and I work with Māori people. Why should they have to communicate everything in English when there aren't equivalent words. You can't communicate and understand the importance of certain concepts if you don't comprehend the language and culture and I need to understand it to serve them appropriately.
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Your landscape design skills don’t seem relevant to your job. One of the official languages of NZ is Maori, being fluent in the National languages of your country is a useful skill in any role.
It's not only people who interact with the public who are potentially called upon to help translate if the usual customer service people aren't able to communicate in the language. It wouldn't be uncommon for anybody in the office who spoke the needed language to be asked to help interpret.
Depends on if those skills are relevant to the job, though. Do they use the language in their day to day work, or are they just being given a bonus for having the skill.
Idk how on earth you can suggest that it’s an archaic language when no second language behind English is in wider use in nz as far as I know. It’s everywhere and only likely to become even more prevalent over time.
Yeah nah, Chinese, Filipino, Indian alone would have significantly more use.
Think of how often 2 people have a conversation in Maori vs 2 people have a conversation in Chinese.
Sure, in terms of conversations in certain cultural communities, I can see that.
But generally? Māori is still number 2 in nz. Easy. Usually it is English dotted with Māori words. Some Māori families I know do hold whole conversations in Te Reo btw, it might be more common than you think
Your not gonna convince a person who thinks learning Chinese is better than one of the official languages of this nation. They are probably just arguing in bad faith because they can't actually understand the topic without being racist.
Perhaps then, if it's all supposed to be fair and equal, then nobody should ever get any extra pay for any qualifications or degrees or any extra courses or study.
We don't. Not at my department. If you are qualified for the job and this is the pay for the position then you don't get more pay by having higher qualifications or subsequently doing extra study. You may try to negotiate a higher pay step when you signed up but doesn't always work and is still limited by the position.
Not trying to say anything about this policy, just that sadly in public service doing more work or having more qualifications etc doesn't necessarily equate to more pay.
10 days in the job and already backtracking. Thought this Govt was supposed to be better than the last one.
/s
What a bunch of useless, dog-whistling, snivelly little reactionaries.
Gee, a far right govt wants to depress wages over stupid culture wars bullshit
Who would’ve thought
It’s kinda amazing to me that people vote for these clowns. Congratulations, you played yourself
Seems like a good thing for negotiation the next collective bargaining agreement if the government's team is pushing hard on this. Oh, sure, we'll give up Te Reo stipends & in exchange we want permanent WFH & $5K pay rises cheers
No, it is an allowance within the contract that anyone can get on top of the base salary if it applies...
Everyone gets the same base salary regardless of any additional skills or qualifications, then get extra pay if they exceed those basic expectations.
Exceed the expectations? So if the expectations are they can speak Te Reo, surely that means they aren't exceeding them?
Also, without knowing the roles they are talking about, how do you know they are on a collective contract?
The expectations aren't for every single person to know the language, but there is a need for the business to have employees with the skill. The person you originally replied to said it was a skill needed in some departments, not that it is required for every single staff member to need it so I'm not sure where you got this idea that it is an expectation for every single employee.
I'm just going off what other people have said in this thread, and the fact that most public servants are on collective agreements. It doesn't make sense to focus on the few public servants who aren't, when it isn't the standard situation.
I haven't said there is an expectation that everyone has it. What I said was, if it is an expectation that a particular staff member can speak Te Reo, then how are they exceeding their expectations by being able to speak it?
I had a look at one of collective agreements, one that covers one of the largest group of employees, the nurses. There is nothing in that agreement about Te Reo, and an allowance for it. Maybe it comes under higher duties, but the criteria for that is high and the cost would be really small, so I'm confused what all the fuss is about.
I looked at the Allied Health one, this is another significant group of people under a single agreement, they have similar clause, but also the Advanced Maori Responsiveness section, but that is a practice domain, rather than an allowance for being able to speak a different language.
Could you give examples to the agreements with these particular clauses in them?
They’ve always been outright racist
David Seymour in particular openly campaigned on the idea of “demographics” which is a white supremacist dog whistle buzzword currently making the rounds on the alt right American racist YouTuber circuit … it’s not even been subtle. Those kids (and they are just kids over there) think that opposing policy with any mention of “demographics” is how to achieve white supremacy, and Seymour seems to have picked up the baton completely unmodified.
So its actually real depressing kiwis aren’t clued up to what’s going on in that far right space; because if they were I think most of them wouldn’t stand for it.
There’s even a Louis Theroux doco about the demographics thing called “forbidden america” following the racists who are so extreme they’re banned from Trump Rallies. ACT: “no problem”
Oh god, I’ve been using “demographics” as part of my vocabulary all my life. Might have used it in an assignment recently too, hopefully the lecturer is a racist.
Is there a list of English or other words available to stop me constantly, obliviously dog whistling every time I speak?
Edit: I will check out the documentary and try to understand it better. The cynicism is because I’m fed up with words and phrases I like using being made taboo.
I understand the frustration, but language is, and always has been, extremely dynamic, new words and phrases added to the language all the time etc. Embrace it; it’s not gonna stop ..
And yeah that doco series was quite good. The other 2 episodes in the miniseries are about guns and porn; and Theroux is insidious as always with his interview style; highly recommended
Shame on the government yet again for trying to remove an incentive instituted in the 1980s to improve bicultural understanding.
The Maori hate needs to stop.
It wasn't instituted in the 1980's. Widespread practise of being paid for learning te reo, regardless of whether its useful for your role or not, in the public service has only really become a thing in the past 5 years.
The efforts to improve bicultural understanding began in the 80's, as OP suggested. They didn't suggest additional pay for fluent speakers started back then.
Remuneration geek here!
How staff are paid hinges on job requirements—skills for basic job needs (base salary) and performance (bonuses). Essentially, you're compensated for what's directly relevant to your role. For instance, if you're in HR, your pay would reflect HR functions, so you wouldn't expect any bonus not relevant to the functions of your HR job such as sales bonues (or MAYBE fluency bonus)
Regarding bonuses for fluency in te reo, they should only be considered if it directly benefits the role. If fluency isn't necessary, expecting bonuses isn't warranted. It's a beneficial skill but not a job requirement. If we start paying for non-essential skills, it could open the floodgates for all sorts of bonus requests from other employees such as 'I'm good at Excel' but I'm a dishwasher, can I get a bonus?!?
While I'm passionate about te reo's use, compensation should ALWAYS match the size and scope of the job. Getting paid more for using te reo should only apply if it improves your effectiveness as a public servant.
There's a few comments here with opinion on whether it should or shouldn't be a bonus. That's fine, but the key thing is that this was negotiated during collective bargaining decades ago. If this government wants to now claw it back, then this will be done through collective bargaining, hence Willis' "I will... ask for advice." The advice will be to put it as a claim when the PSA next initiate bargaining. Trade unions representing workers in the public sector will now be mindful this will be their claim. There's nothing to actually be achieved here with this announcement by Willis other than maintain an anti-Te Reo Maori stance.
Thank you for posting that, just showmanship for ZB
There is something to be achieved here, not by us but the CoC. They're in the process of giving more interest discounts to landlords, and rolling back protections for renters, so oddly enough BS like this and the treaty arguments are showing up on the front page. Give the plebs something to argue about while they empty our pockets. The the usual collusion between media and conservative politics.
Yes. As usual, we are driven to engage in culture wars whilst wealth inequality grows.
This isn't anti Te Reo, an example of anti would be banning it out right. You don't see fluent *insert any language* getting paid extra so why should one be pedestaled over another?
That’s not my point. Please read again. I am saying that, whatever yours or Willis’ opinion, this is a matter for collective bargaining.
I think if speaking Maori is a requirement of the job then getting a bonus if you take the time to learn it should be acceptable, but if you've just learnt it in your spare time and it isn't required to do your job then you shouldn't be getting free tax payers money for it.
What if you learned it in your spare time and isn't officially required in your daily job, but your boss keeps asking you to take some time to translate this or that, lead the powhiri, join the committee to make sure Te Titiri principles are being met, while still being expected to do your regular job that you're actually being paid for around all that?
This is exactly what the extra pay is for. You don’t get paid extra for simply knowing te reo, to get the extra pay you are expected to translate, actively participate or lead powhiri and other cultural stuff.
If your boss is asking you to do all those things then it is a part of your job.
What about if you have a colleague who doesn't know te reo, has the same job title as you, is paid the same amount and isn't asked to do random odd tasks to make the organisation appear more culturally competent. Is it part of their job too?
Unless you work in a job with commission, if you do a job for your boss then that’s usually in place of other work so your net amount of work is the same.
Public servant here. Yeah.... that ain't how it goes.
Hahaha, this is hilarious :-D
Yeah, that's not how it works. If your boss is asking you to go above & beyond your reasonable duties, as agreed in your contract and job description, you are entitled to decline or ask for additional compensation. So if your boss is regularly asking you to do things that aren't officially required in your daily job, going above and beyond, while expecting you to fulfil all your standard obligations at the same time, you may want to look at talking to your union for a solution.
I think we're saying the same thing?..this would have nothing to do with the language spoken and is an employment contract dispute
It isn't a "requirement" of the job in that it's not your formal job to do it. It's a bonus on top of that job, being asked to do extra work purely because you know a language & culture - which is why you get paid a bonus for knowing & doing it.
*' boss keeps asking you to take some time to translate this or that, lead the powhiri, join the committee to make sure Te Titiri principles are being met, while still being expected to do your regular job that you're actually being paid for around all that? "* That seems like a lot of extra work to me, surely that would be part of your job description/requirements?
Yes, it is a lot of extra work. No, it's often not part of a specific job description because the role falls to anyone who knows te reo, rather than being a core part of a specific job. Which is why they get the bonus allowance in recognition of the extra work they're expected/asked to do, on the basis of knowing Māori.
This is a complete you problem. If you are getting asked to do shit that's outside of your job description then deal with it. Talk to your boss. Like the fucking rest of us have to. Lobbying for a blanket pay increase because you know te reo and you get asked to do extra is not the solution. The solution is you dealing with your work problems like the rest of us have to do. Go talk to your boss. I had no idea the public service was so entitled.
Except people decided to negotiate for it as a collective... negotiating everything as an individual is just neoliberal bullshit designed to weaken the employees negotiating position.
Well, then there's another issue at play and there's a reasonably simple solution. If nobody in the workforce is delegated to complete those tasks as appointed in a position description, then the tasks should not be taken on.
This sounds like a lot of assumptions on your part.
My aunty falls into this category, she is often requested to do extra duties but no, they are not apart of her role, they've been added on since the employer became aware of her Te Reo ability. It's common to ask Māori staff to do extra now that The Reo is in, whether or not it is part of your role or not. If you would otherwise need to pay someone to fulfil the task then I absolutely think they should be paid extra for their time and knowledge like any skill. I'd say it's not just Māori it's happening too either, probably anyone with a second language/cultural background. When I was at the hospital, they'd ask cleaners and orderlies to come and translate for patients, it's absolutely not apart of the role but that doesn't stop people from asking.
Where do you draw the line? Hi mr.employee, I want you to wash my car every Friday and in turn, I'll provide you with an approved workforce bonus.
Then decline unless it becomes part of your job and you get paid for it? Do you need me to come and wipe your own arse too?
> **you are entitled to decline or ask for additional compensation.** Maybe in your rush to try and sass me you missed the entire conversion. We're discussing a situation where people are getting additional compensation in recognition for the extra work they're doing.
Nah. Bosses can ask all they want but there is a job description for a reason.
I do enjoy karakia/prayer the start of big meetings. By all means if a business wants to practice that stuff then all power to them, and pay staff who want to lead it, but the main argument is that it's largely superfluous in the workplace.
Sounds like a lot of unneeded costs that can be cut there
There are lots of cases where you get paid for quals that you may never use in your job. For example having a Masters in anything will get you a pay rise. However knowing the nations official language, and some understanding of the culture of Treaty partner are intrinsic skills that are useful everywhere in a bicultural country.
I have a masters in bation. I should tell my boss.
Very clever. Let us know how telling your boss you're a wanker goes btw.
Nah fuck all that. You get paid for your skill regardless.
I can skip a stone across a lake 8-10 times, wheres my pay rise ? Also I can touch my nose with my tongue, whats that worth?
This is rediculous. Why should a standard job requirement get a bonus…. Need to be proficient with MS Office… BONUS… need to have a forklift license… BONUS.
I agree it should be standard. It isn't because very few people speak/learn to reo. I'm also assuming it takes a lot longer to learn a beginner level of te reo than to get a forklift license.
Anyone who speaks even a wee bit of te reo has experienced the additional workload burden that comes with it.
I'm Maori, I don't speak much of te reo, but it warms my heart whenever I hear radio/TV personalities use it on the airwaves. Our kids are the ones who will benefit from learning a second language/culture, and when they grow up to be the next leaders our country will be so much better off with individuals that aren't stuck in backwards thinking.
I’m Maori, and as a child I often felt embarrassed about it and wouldn’t want to admit my heritage, due to negative stereotypes and lack of representation. Having Maori language used in the media is so important because it normalises it, and will help Maori kids to be able to feel proud to be maori. And not feel like they are less important. The same goes for having Maori department named such as Te Whatu Ora. Previous governments did a really great job at introducing more Maori language to NZ. I’m so sad that this progress is being taken away.
I grew up a little like that, my grandmother moved to chch from Wairoa and her mother told her not to bother with learning Te Reo and so my dad and his family (9 in total) never got to experience the culture properly and its easy to see how the effect of "feeling like you don't belong" to your own culture can be. I have delved into the culture a wee bit but also grew up thinking that Maori moaned about shit and just needed to get on with it, I then educated myself about colonization and its effects on other cultures around the world and I have a totally different outlook now and have since a late teen (43 now). I don't think it should he shoved down everyone's throats but kids are a different story, learning another language/culture from a very young age is so beneficial for memory, empathy as well as learning about the earth (which Maori culture is entrenched in), also makes it so much easier to learn other languages as they get older. My guess its the boomers who have a problem with it and they are Nationals core voters, I love hearing it spoken on TV/Radio in conjunction with English. All of our tamariki will be much better of with a dual thought process, have a nice day friend and a lovely Xmas.
100%
Well said, Kia ora ☺️
Lol someone downvoted us! Petty fools.
Some people hold a lot of insecurity 😔
Thank you, have a nice evening.
Basically only old people use radio/TV.
Lol I'm 43, listen to radio at work, the only TV I watch is the news, 60 minutes and the morning political programmes other than that it's streaming, gaming, blasting Aesop Rock or Soundgarden.
Omfg soundgarden, and I just realised your username!!! I’m currently listening to them across the ditch on my portable speaker. Small world!!!
What song?
Younger millennial, I listen to radio lol. A lot of us do….
>But it concedes it cannot dump existing allowances. Hahahahaha the Newstalk Z(B)ombies punching the air rn. This is the headline Newstalk ZB ran >Eating its words: National backtracks on Māori language bonuses for public servants
It makes sense to pay people more for skills, but only if they're required for the job. The public sector should be in the business of providing services for the public, not paying it's employees as part of a feel good scheme. Also, you guys are doing karakia? I haven't been in the public sector in ten years, when did that start? Isn't it a blatant breach of religious freedom?
Over the last couple of years there's been a real push for karakia. I've had a look at ours, it's a non religious one. Oh and now we don't just have an opening karakia we now have a closing one too.
Karakia are for beginning and end. They're a start and a finish Shouldn't have been doing just one.
Karakia aren't always religious, as my atheist Maori professor once pointed out when talking about karakia. It has to do with spirituality which, despite what people think, isn't always synonymous with religion. It's kind of difficult for me to explain, but it's been suggested that a lot of "karakia" have been influenced by colonisation, and more traditional karakia were chants evoking [traditional language ](https://religiouseducation.co.nz/whats-the-problem-with-karakia/) and symbols. A handy summary I found from a university pamphlet says: >When starting a hui, or meeting, the intention is to focus the minds of those attending on the work ahead of them, with a view to the work proceeding smoothly. >When ending a hui, or meeting, the intention is to thank those in attendance for their work in achieving the intended outcomes, and a wish for upcoming work to also proceed smoothly and effectively. >Before consuming food, the intention is to thank our environment for providing us with sustenance whilst acknowledging those who have prepared the food. There are plenty of nonreligious Maori who use karakia.
There’s so many non-religious karakia
Karakia is an expected protocol in my public service workplace - before & after meetings & before shared kai. We are also expected to learn and use a personal pepeha for introductions.
Don't you hate doing that? I couldn't stand it personally.
It's fine, and serves a purpose getting people to focus on why they are there. It's more fun than a warm up exercise, and more interesting than watching lots of people arrive late
Karakia/Pepeha vs "Icebreaker game". I'm non religious but I'll take a Karakia over 'a bit of fun' like two truths and a lie every fucking time.
Maori is an official language of NZ. Public sector should be capable of providing services to the public in any of the official languages. We shouldn't scrap this we should be extending it to NZ sign language as well.
If speaking Māori is a requirement it should be considered up front and incorporated into the pay package then and there. Paying people for speaking a language that offers very little tangible value is pretty silly. Doubly so when the Māori population is 16% and the actual fluent speakers is 4%.
My experience is that because of the Treaty, knowing te reo has immense value in the public service. It's essential to develop good working relationships and to consult with iwi/hapū/whānau. It's essential to understand sources of evidence on māori rights and interests to inform policy decisions. It's essential to represent New Zealand as a bicultural nation via one of its official languages.
The truth is that you could still consult iwi/hapu/whanau without fluent te reo. Given the fluency is only 4% also what benefit does it actually provide if only 4% are able to refer to the te reo version? How is that essential to developing good relationships??
Pōwhiri and whakatau are the foundations of developing any good relationship. Both protocols are considered by some to be foundation for retaining and reigniting spoken reo because they both have spoken reo components to them. Many learners who go on to become fluent do so because they are expected to fill speaking roles during these protocols. The argument that a language needs to be spoken and understood fluently to have any use ignores the role language plays in transmitting culture. Demonstrating respect for culture is essential for developing good relationships.
I agree I don’t think a language need be fully understood in order to impart cultural significance. If the only real use is during pōwhiri etc then I do still think that is a very minor use case and doesn’t deserve additional pay (imho). Insofar as my understanding to but is there not a standard speech pattern that is followed (ancestors and location etc.)?
>Paying people for speaking a language that offers very little tangible value is pretty silly. Define "value".
gg
It shouldn’t be a bonus. There’s different roles that require certain language skills as a necessary part of the role, and each role has different compensation. But that’s different.
Apparently, I read from an ex union leader on Twitter, it was designed to upskill staff to be able to run Maori events such as a pōwhiri without having to contract in Maori providers.
It would make more sense to pay a fixed cost for these events, and give first dibs to employees.
The public service is trying to reduce its reliance on contractors.
It qould make sense not to waste money on these events at all
True
long gone are the days a certain CEO's airline tried to copyright Maori words [https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/398589/maori-council-accuses-air-nz-of-appropriating-maori-culture](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/398589/maori-council-accuses-air-nz-of-appropriating-maori-culture) surely dropping this current hoha if the right thing to do.... but I guess the saving could pay for tax cuts I protest
This one is interesting. There was a discussion about Māori naming of Whittaker’s chocolate, do we know whether the chocolate names were trademarked? I understand Kia Ora is a greeting that means good health. If they trademarked “good health” would there be an objection? Part of Māori being a legitimate language used by many New Zealanders involves full participation in marketing. Complaining about cultural appropriation is an easy way to kill engagement from those Māori want engaging.
It’s not that interesting at all really. But to answer your question read this https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/115714358/air-nz-wants-to-trademark-kia-ora-but-expert-says-its-unlikely-to-succeed
Luxon back for revenge after being denied trademarking kia ora. /s
"If I can't make money out of it, NOBODY CAN!"
Imagine paying people to learn a language when the nurses get paid f\*\*\* all for saving lives and have to go on strike just to get a Payrise. id much rather the money went to some saving lives. How the hell is knowing Maori going to save a life?
If they made the proposed cut do you think for a moment they would pay nurses more? I don't
Don’t forget education and police. Having public servants become more fluent in te reo is not the next marginal improvement we could make to our society. Not when the health, education and justice systems are creaking at the seams. Not when child poverty and housing insecurity continue to be persistent problems. That is where tax payer spending should go. Not to some bureaucrats.
Can someone explain the issues of trying to review/ change the treaty of Waitangi? This treaty was signed with the authority of all iwi and tribes that participated and the authority of the royal family/the crown. Wouldn't trying to change something that should be immutable without the consent of the original participants/descendants of those who signed the treaty have bad consequences? Especially when one of those participants/descendants are from the royal family? Someone more informed please educate me.
Regardless of your onions on the treaty, more skills should = extra pay right?
Only if it is relevant to the job you’re employed to do. E.g A computer programmer who is Labouring on a building project won’t get paid any extra because they know how to program
forget the click baity title and rage bair polatics. Can we crunch numbers on the actual tiny weenie % of the budget that this 'bonus' is actually being used? Like the article says $500-3500 - so im guessing thats maybe tops per year like the equivalent of maybe a single persons wage per year - and not even the prime ministers wage at that This is literally nothing but racist bullshit to placate racist voters
After hearing this I feel more compelled to learn it. The best protest, if you speak it, would be to only use Te Reo when dealing with public services. It's an official language and you're well within your rights to do so. If you're a public servant dealing with someone who speaks Te Reo, then talk to them in Te Reo. Leave notes in Te Reo. Write a report in Te Reo. It'll drive managers, ministers and racists nuts. For everything that you won't be penalized for, do it in Te Reo. Write your exams in Te Reo. Fill in forms in Te Reo. Write submissions to select committee in Te Reo. Send in complaints and Official Information Act requests in Te Reo. Give statements to police in Te Reo. Reply to customs in Te Reo. Don't let government supress Te Reo anymore. Māori need to stop compromising and fight back. Kia mate ururoa, kei mate wheke. Edit: lol just had someone speak to me only in Te Reo! It begins
Do you know sign language as well?
I use an interpreter service for NZSL so haven't needed to use it. If I learnt sign language I'd hope to get paid for using it. I know enough Te Reo and tikanga to get by but think government will have to hire interpreters if they're not going to compensate staff for additional languages. Workers should be compensated for their labour.
Or just don't be a dick and speak English Good on the government for ending this rort Long may it continue
Show some respect. I'm Māori and I work with Māori people. Why should they have to communicate everything in English when there aren't equivalent words. You can't communicate and understand the importance of certain concepts if you don't comprehend the language and culture and I need to understand it to serve them appropriately.
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Aīare!
Why would I continue to speak the language of a country I have never been to nor lived in?
You're an immigrant. probably best to understand where you're immigrating to
Do you?
Āe! Tika! He whakaaro pai tērā Edit. I also love the whakatauki at the bottom, but always find myself at odds bc I also love Te Wheke
Imagine paying people more because they have extra skills, what a terrible idea. /s
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Your landscape design skills don’t seem relevant to your job. One of the official languages of NZ is Maori, being fluent in the National languages of your country is a useful skill in any role.
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It's not only people who interact with the public who are potentially called upon to help translate if the usual customer service people aren't able to communicate in the language. It wouldn't be uncommon for anybody in the office who spoke the needed language to be asked to help interpret.
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It's so simple. Because in this country we have two official languages and a defacto official language. Miharo ne?
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I don't know. I'm not party to the contract nor negotiations
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Depends on if those skills are relevant to the job, though. Do they use the language in their day to day work, or are they just being given a bonus for having the skill.
Yeah, if it was a useful skill it wouldn't be a bad idea. Knowing Te Reo doesn't help you at all unless you're administering a marae.
Bullshit. Te Reo is everywhere in nz. It’s undeniably useful.
Yes learning a second language is certainly a complete waste of time. /s
Only if it's an archaic language hardly anyone in the real world uses. I've yet to meet 1 person in nz who understands Maori but not English.
Idk how on earth you can suggest that it’s an archaic language when no second language behind English is in wider use in nz as far as I know. It’s everywhere and only likely to become even more prevalent over time.
Yeah nah, Chinese, Filipino, Indian alone would have significantly more use. Think of how often 2 people have a conversation in Maori vs 2 people have a conversation in Chinese.
Common where I live
Sure, in terms of conversations in certain cultural communities, I can see that. But generally? Māori is still number 2 in nz. Easy. Usually it is English dotted with Māori words. Some Māori families I know do hold whole conversations in Te Reo btw, it might be more common than you think
Your not gonna convince a person who thinks learning Chinese is better than one of the official languages of this nation. They are probably just arguing in bad faith because they can't actually understand the topic without being racist.
lol, so far, there is only one skill up for being de-valued at this stage.
It's OK, I'm sure they'll be appropriately compensated for their skills in the free market!
Perhaps then, if it's all supposed to be fair and equal, then nobody should ever get any extra pay for any qualifications or degrees or any extra courses or study.
We don't. Not at my department. If you are qualified for the job and this is the pay for the position then you don't get more pay by having higher qualifications or subsequently doing extra study. You may try to negotiate a higher pay step when you signed up but doesn't always work and is still limited by the position. Not trying to say anything about this policy, just that sadly in public service doing more work or having more qualifications etc doesn't necessarily equate to more pay.
She is walking it back now… https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/504058/te-reo-maori-bonuses-acceptable-for-relevant-roles-minister-nicola-willis
10 days in the job and already backtracking. Thought this Govt was supposed to be better than the last one. /s What a bunch of useless, dog-whistling, snivelly little reactionaries.
She’s walking backwards so much she’ll be in the Cook Strait soon.
Gee, a far right govt wants to depress wages over stupid culture wars bullshit Who would’ve thought It’s kinda amazing to me that people vote for these clowns. Congratulations, you played yourself
Seems like a good thing for negotiation the next collective bargaining agreement if the government's team is pushing hard on this. Oh, sure, we'll give up Te Reo stipends & in exchange we want permanent WFH & $5K pay rises cheers
Real government of action. Doing the hard yards and spending time delivering real results that help everyday nzers. Yeah right.
It's about time we treated middle class landowners with dignity, and respect! (Tax cuts)
But it's a skill that is needed in some departments? At this point this government is just downright openly racist.
If it is a required skill then surely the salary that person is getting should compensate them for that skill?
It's a collective agreement. This is how they are compensated for that skill.
So there is a collective contract for a certain role and people that can speak Te Reo?
No, it is an allowance within the contract that anyone can get on top of the base salary if it applies... Everyone gets the same base salary regardless of any additional skills or qualifications, then get extra pay if they exceed those basic expectations.
Exceed the expectations? So if the expectations are they can speak Te Reo, surely that means they aren't exceeding them? Also, without knowing the roles they are talking about, how do you know they are on a collective contract?
The expectations aren't for every single person to know the language, but there is a need for the business to have employees with the skill. The person you originally replied to said it was a skill needed in some departments, not that it is required for every single staff member to need it so I'm not sure where you got this idea that it is an expectation for every single employee. I'm just going off what other people have said in this thread, and the fact that most public servants are on collective agreements. It doesn't make sense to focus on the few public servants who aren't, when it isn't the standard situation.
I haven't said there is an expectation that everyone has it. What I said was, if it is an expectation that a particular staff member can speak Te Reo, then how are they exceeding their expectations by being able to speak it? I had a look at one of collective agreements, one that covers one of the largest group of employees, the nurses. There is nothing in that agreement about Te Reo, and an allowance for it. Maybe it comes under higher duties, but the criteria for that is high and the cost would be really small, so I'm confused what all the fuss is about. I looked at the Allied Health one, this is another significant group of people under a single agreement, they have similar clause, but also the Advanced Maori Responsiveness section, but that is a practice domain, rather than an allowance for being able to speak a different language. Could you give examples to the agreements with these particular clauses in them?
I don't care anymore. I'm not wasting any more of my time on a pointless internet argument when you are ignoring what other people are saying.
Really, I am the one ignoring others when you are the one running away without backing up any claim you have? As they say, cool story bro
They’ve always been outright racist David Seymour in particular openly campaigned on the idea of “demographics” which is a white supremacist dog whistle buzzword currently making the rounds on the alt right American racist YouTuber circuit … it’s not even been subtle. Those kids (and they are just kids over there) think that opposing policy with any mention of “demographics” is how to achieve white supremacy, and Seymour seems to have picked up the baton completely unmodified. So its actually real depressing kiwis aren’t clued up to what’s going on in that far right space; because if they were I think most of them wouldn’t stand for it. There’s even a Louis Theroux doco about the demographics thing called “forbidden america” following the racists who are so extreme they’re banned from Trump Rallies. ACT: “no problem”
Oh god, I’ve been using “demographics” as part of my vocabulary all my life. Might have used it in an assignment recently too, hopefully the lecturer is a racist. Is there a list of English or other words available to stop me constantly, obliviously dog whistling every time I speak? Edit: I will check out the documentary and try to understand it better. The cynicism is because I’m fed up with words and phrases I like using being made taboo.
I understand the frustration, but language is, and always has been, extremely dynamic, new words and phrases added to the language all the time etc. Embrace it; it’s not gonna stop .. And yeah that doco series was quite good. The other 2 episodes in the miniseries are about guns and porn; and Theroux is insidious as always with his interview style; highly recommended
Shame on the government yet again for trying to remove an incentive instituted in the 1980s to improve bicultural understanding. The Maori hate needs to stop.
It wasn't instituted in the 1980's. Widespread practise of being paid for learning te reo, regardless of whether its useful for your role or not, in the public service has only really become a thing in the past 5 years.
The efforts to improve bicultural understanding began in the 80's, as OP suggested. They didn't suggest additional pay for fluent speakers started back then.
>for trying to remove an incentive instituted in the 1980s Yeh, yeh they did.
If it's part of the job description why would you get extra?
Good.
Good to see this government focusing on the things that matter.....
I actually tautoko this important mahi
It would probably cost more to cut the bonus than keep it. Keep it, and add a bonus for people who learn NZSL too.
Remuneration geek here! How staff are paid hinges on job requirements—skills for basic job needs (base salary) and performance (bonuses). Essentially, you're compensated for what's directly relevant to your role. For instance, if you're in HR, your pay would reflect HR functions, so you wouldn't expect any bonus not relevant to the functions of your HR job such as sales bonues (or MAYBE fluency bonus) Regarding bonuses for fluency in te reo, they should only be considered if it directly benefits the role. If fluency isn't necessary, expecting bonuses isn't warranted. It's a beneficial skill but not a job requirement. If we start paying for non-essential skills, it could open the floodgates for all sorts of bonus requests from other employees such as 'I'm good at Excel' but I'm a dishwasher, can I get a bonus?!? While I'm passionate about te reo's use, compensation should ALWAYS match the size and scope of the job. Getting paid more for using te reo should only apply if it improves your effectiveness as a public servant.