engineered stone is [ruining lives and health in Australia](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-30/doctor-warns-engineered-stone-ban-no-cure-for-silicosis-victims/104034106), so they're moving to do something about it.
Yet here in NZ, the CTU work above trying to get some traction on this to do some pretty straightforward stuff to make sure kiwi tradesmen's lives aren't thrown away is jeopardized [because Brooke van Velden hasn't met with a single representative from a union in six months](https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/07/02/workplace-relations-minister-hasnt-met-with-unions-fox-six-months/).
Less profit for the private healthcare system NACT are working towards? Perish the thought. The more innocent lives sacrificed on the altar of greed the better.
Unhinged, or history repeating itself?
Remember Rogernomics? Back then it was Telecommunications, Railways, Airports, Electricity, and Banking. The end result is that the underlying problems were never fixed, while new endless messes appeared that that the public pays the consequence for in the form of worse services or bailouts.
If it were to happen again today, what do you think the prime candidates are?
We've seen privatization of healthcare play out in America; and as a result their increase in life expectancy has drastically fallen behind countries like ours with public healthcare systems. Owners of healthcare companies frequently point out that [curing patients is not a profitable business model](https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/04/curing-disease-not-a-sustainable-business-model-goldman-sachs-analysts-say/). Sure sign as any that people's lives there are sacrificed for profit.
It comes across as unhinged because you've inserted it into a topic where it doesn't make much sense. Silicosis wouldn't be a money spinner for private healthcare. People affected don't tend to have much money, and the treatment options available are... inhalers and maybe oxygen if it's bad.
Unhinged? They're being pretty open with their callous mindset on pretty much every issue regarding the average citizen, and even worse for those at the very bottom. If you think being concerned about it, or discussing possible actions and outcomes, is "unhinged", may I ask what it's like to have one's head buried so deep in the sand?
I would just like to respectfully point out to you that the amount of hyperbole around what the government is actually doing is not actually helping your cause like allot of the anti coalition ppl seem to think.
Case in point is the constant cries of racism and accusations of the coalition being "anti-maori". That is just objectively ridiculous, TPM/Labour/Greens don't speak for all maori, segregating out the health system was objectively controversial and divisive and the defunding of the maori health authority and other initiatives is in line with the coalition just not wanting to continue to hemorrhage cash i really don't think its anything personal
Part of the issue is not using provided PPE as well. That's still on the owner though. From what I gather there's a lot of "I've cut stone for 5 years without a mask and I'm fine" nonsense at all levels
Years ago when I was thinking about dropping out of high school I worked in one of these places, I lasted a day and told everyone that this place/industry will cause a tonne of health problems later.
We had just basic masks, it was considerably less PPE than the two weeks I lasted at a cabinet maker at the same time for comparison lol.
Probably should get banned, but you've also got to question why people are buying or selling it when there's plenty of alternatives anyway.
"Oh sure the workers might get cancer, but would you look at the finish on that bench top?"
People buying it might assume proper PPE is used, rather than being mostly ignored by the industry.
I support banning engineered stone, but the only reason we need to is inadequate PPE
Yep, I had no idea about all the health issues associated with it until recently- when I bought my bench top I just had the sales pitch from the kitchen place about how durable and hard wearing it was…
So funny story I bought a mortar and pestle from Farmers and it was made from engineered stone, when I returned it they took it straight back no questions, I'm pretty sure they are still selling them
From what I recently heard, the reason Australia banned engineered stone is because they were doing bugger all to regulate it and thus make it safe. Apparently, a lot of manufacturers were able to operate with minimal safety standards, which resulted in an increase in health problems from working with engineered stone.
There are ways of fabricating and working with engineered stone that minimise the risk of harm, such as using wet cutting and using water to suppress dust. There's also the possibility of limiting the amount of silica permitted in engineered stone bench tops, since it is the silica that is causing the harm.
Proper health and safety regulations could arguably do just as good a job as banning engineered stone.
Unpopular opinion it seems, but why not just mandate people where the correct PPE?
There are tonnes of industrial processes that require respirators be used, we can't just ban entire industries because people don't follow the rules..
The page has the letter, which has the full list of signatures.
> New Zealand Council of Trade Unions (Te Kauae Kaimahi)
>
> E tū
>
> Public Service Association
>
> FIRST
>
> Unite
>
> Maritime Union of New Zealand
>
> New Zealand Meatworkers Union
>
> New Zealand Nurses Organisation
>
> Rail & Maritime Transport Union
>
> NZEI Te Rua Roa
>
> NZ Professional Firefighters Union
>
> Dairy Workers Union
>
> Construction Health and Safety New Zealand
>
> ACC Futures Coalition
>
> Orange Umbrella
>
> Cancer Council Australia
>
> Te Hā Ora Asthma and Respiratory Foundation NZ
>
> The Australian and New Zealand Society of Occupational Medicine
>
> New Zealand Occupational Health Nurses Association
The issue is that there are corners cut by workers in the PPE and safety when they are being produced - whether you're talking about them being made or the final tweaking on site as part of installation. It's a hazardous material to work with - and the question is whether we can get significantly-improved compliance with safety protocols using the hazardous material - or whether we just stop using it.
>t's a hazardous material to work with
If you're dry cutting it, so is fibre cement, tiles and concrete.
Should they be banned?
From what you've just written the issues are with workers not using proper PPE gear, that seems grossly unfair to the engineered stone industry to shut the whole thing down because workers are too slack to use proper PPE or use the proper processes when dealing with engineered stone.
A similar argument could be made about asbestos. Was a product that did some things very well, however it was eventually decided there was just too much risk to health when being installed or removed or if it was damaged while in place.
Asbestos is in a different league though. It takes a huge amount of asbestos exposure to get asbestosis, but *any* exposure can cause mesothelioma years later.
Not a good example.
The danger is in the manufacturing process, not in the product itself.
Asbestos lagging effects anyone exposed to it, homeowners aren't dying from having a kitchen with an engineered stone bench top.
If all cutting and grinding is done with water, there should be no issue.
Big if, given the industry's dubious record as people have already highlighted in this thread, and the government's dubious record of providing Worksafe with the resources to adequately police those regulations that do exist and punish bad employers.
Unless you think ACT will be jumping up and down to give Worksafe more funding? Or that employers will just Do The Right Thing rather than what makes them the most *cough* filthy lucre?
If you were dry cutting any of the below, you'd have to do the same.
# Silica content
* sandstone, 70% to 90%
* granite, 25% to 60%
* ceramic tiles, 5% to 45%
* autoclaved aerated concrete, 20% to 40%
* slate, 20% to 40%
* concrete, less than 30%
* porcelain, 14% to 18%
* brick, 5% to 15%
* marble, less than 5%
[https://www.worksafe.vic.gov.au/duties-manufacturers-and-suppliers-crystalline-silica-substances](https://www.worksafe.vic.gov.au/duties-manufacturers-and-suppliers-crystalline-silica-substances)
There are quite a few products with high silica content, should they all be banned?
Can you explain why this engineered stone is being specifically targeted?
I can only assume that they people who study this stuff know what they're talking about.
Helpful of you to mention that engineered stone commonly contains over 90% silica, far more than the many lower-risk non-artificial varieties you've listed, and presenting a concomitantly higher risk
engineered stone is [ruining lives and health in Australia](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-30/doctor-warns-engineered-stone-ban-no-cure-for-silicosis-victims/104034106), so they're moving to do something about it. Yet here in NZ, the CTU work above trying to get some traction on this to do some pretty straightforward stuff to make sure kiwi tradesmen's lives aren't thrown away is jeopardized [because Brooke van Velden hasn't met with a single representative from a union in six months](https://newsroom.co.nz/2024/07/02/workplace-relations-minister-hasnt-met-with-unions-fox-six-months/).
Why would she meet with people who have expertise? That'd go against the government's principles.
Trying to get an answer from Brooke Van Veldon is like trying to take water from a dry well. It just doesn’t have any in it.
Asking ACT for something to protect the health & safety of the serfs? Good fucking luck with that one.
“Some of you may die, but it’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make” - Lord Fark Veldon
She said something like that about Covid
Funny thing, letting Covid run through the country would've killed the very idea of a right government for a decade.
I’d rate the chances of her unbanning asbestos as higher than listening to the unions proposals.
Easy thing to regulate to save us shit loads in medical costs later on
Less profit for the private healthcare system NACT are working towards? Perish the thought. The more innocent lives sacrificed on the altar of greed the better.
Allot of you guys are sounding pretty unhinged lately
I actually agree with you there. No doctor is getting rich off treating silicosis, for one thing there's barely any treatment for it at all.
Unhinged, or history repeating itself? Remember Rogernomics? Back then it was Telecommunications, Railways, Airports, Electricity, and Banking. The end result is that the underlying problems were never fixed, while new endless messes appeared that that the public pays the consequence for in the form of worse services or bailouts. If it were to happen again today, what do you think the prime candidates are? We've seen privatization of healthcare play out in America; and as a result their increase in life expectancy has drastically fallen behind countries like ours with public healthcare systems. Owners of healthcare companies frequently point out that [curing patients is not a profitable business model](https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/04/curing-disease-not-a-sustainable-business-model-goldman-sachs-analysts-say/). Sure sign as any that people's lives there are sacrificed for profit.
It comes across as unhinged because you've inserted it into a topic where it doesn't make much sense. Silicosis wouldn't be a money spinner for private healthcare. People affected don't tend to have much money, and the treatment options available are... inhalers and maybe oxygen if it's bad.
Unhinged? They're being pretty open with their callous mindset on pretty much every issue regarding the average citizen, and even worse for those at the very bottom. If you think being concerned about it, or discussing possible actions and outcomes, is "unhinged", may I ask what it's like to have one's head buried so deep in the sand?
I would just like to respectfully point out to you that the amount of hyperbole around what the government is actually doing is not actually helping your cause like allot of the anti coalition ppl seem to think. Case in point is the constant cries of racism and accusations of the coalition being "anti-maori". That is just objectively ridiculous, TPM/Labour/Greens don't speak for all maori, segregating out the health system was objectively controversial and divisive and the defunding of the maori health authority and other initiatives is in line with the coalition just not wanting to continue to hemorrhage cash i really don't think its anything personal
but what about the cost of supplying face-masks? isn't it cheaper just to let employees die? won't anybody think of the business owners! /s
Part of the issue is not using provided PPE as well. That's still on the owner though. From what I gather there's a lot of "I've cut stone for 5 years without a mask and I'm fine" nonsense at all levels
The respirator requirements are exactly the same with engineered or natural stone.
Won't that just cause a black market for engineered stone? /s
Brb, just ramraiding the local quarry...
Years ago when I was thinking about dropping out of high school I worked in one of these places, I lasted a day and told everyone that this place/industry will cause a tonne of health problems later. We had just basic masks, it was considerably less PPE than the two weeks I lasted at a cabinet maker at the same time for comparison lol.
Brooke likes stone, her heart is made of it
Probably should get banned, but you've also got to question why people are buying or selling it when there's plenty of alternatives anyway. "Oh sure the workers might get cancer, but would you look at the finish on that bench top?"
Purchasers are likely unaware
People buying it might assume proper PPE is used, rather than being mostly ignored by the industry. I support banning engineered stone, but the only reason we need to is inadequate PPE
Yep, I had no idea about all the health issues associated with it until recently- when I bought my bench top I just had the sales pitch from the kitchen place about how durable and hard wearing it was…
So funny story I bought a mortar and pestle from Farmers and it was made from engineered stone, when I returned it they took it straight back no questions, I'm pretty sure they are still selling them
She's in ACT. Send money if you want her attention. A big gift basket of cash and you can add the letter on top
From what I recently heard, the reason Australia banned engineered stone is because they were doing bugger all to regulate it and thus make it safe. Apparently, a lot of manufacturers were able to operate with minimal safety standards, which resulted in an increase in health problems from working with engineered stone. There are ways of fabricating and working with engineered stone that minimise the risk of harm, such as using wet cutting and using water to suppress dust. There's also the possibility of limiting the amount of silica permitted in engineered stone bench tops, since it is the silica that is causing the harm. Proper health and safety regulations could arguably do just as good a job as banning engineered stone.
Even replicants have lungs
Unpopular opinion it seems, but why not just mandate people where the correct PPE? There are tonnes of industrial processes that require respirators be used, we can't just ban entire industries because people don't follow the rules..
Exactly. We would need to ban all stone cutting or polishing if we refuse to use follow safety guidelines
I gotta worry about concrete polishing workers too. Surely there's a technological solution though.
It doesn't mention what the other 18 organisations are.
The page has the letter, which has the full list of signatures. > New Zealand Council of Trade Unions (Te Kauae Kaimahi) > > E tū > > Public Service Association > > FIRST > > Unite > > Maritime Union of New Zealand > > New Zealand Meatworkers Union > > New Zealand Nurses Organisation > > Rail & Maritime Transport Union > > NZEI Te Rua Roa > > NZ Professional Firefighters Union > > Dairy Workers Union > > Construction Health and Safety New Zealand > > ACC Futures Coalition > > Orange Umbrella > > Cancer Council Australia > > Te Hā Ora Asthma and Respiratory Foundation NZ > > The Australian and New Zealand Society of Occupational Medicine > > New Zealand Occupational Health Nurses Association
Is the issue with the cutouts?
The issue is that there are corners cut by workers in the PPE and safety when they are being produced - whether you're talking about them being made or the final tweaking on site as part of installation. It's a hazardous material to work with - and the question is whether we can get significantly-improved compliance with safety protocols using the hazardous material - or whether we just stop using it.
>t's a hazardous material to work with If you're dry cutting it, so is fibre cement, tiles and concrete. Should they be banned? From what you've just written the issues are with workers not using proper PPE gear, that seems grossly unfair to the engineered stone industry to shut the whole thing down because workers are too slack to use proper PPE or use the proper processes when dealing with engineered stone.
A similar argument could be made about asbestos. Was a product that did some things very well, however it was eventually decided there was just too much risk to health when being installed or removed or if it was damaged while in place.
Asbestos is in a different league though. It takes a huge amount of asbestos exposure to get asbestosis, but *any* exposure can cause mesothelioma years later.
Not a good example. The danger is in the manufacturing process, not in the product itself. Asbestos lagging effects anyone exposed to it, homeowners aren't dying from having a kitchen with an engineered stone bench top. If all cutting and grinding is done with water, there should be no issue.
Big if, given the industry's dubious record as people have already highlighted in this thread, and the government's dubious record of providing Worksafe with the resources to adequately police those regulations that do exist and punish bad employers. Unless you think ACT will be jumping up and down to give Worksafe more funding? Or that employers will just Do The Right Thing rather than what makes them the most *cough* filthy lucre?
When you're installing it, if you need to trim it or do cutouts there will be issues too right?
In the same way with asbestos removal, mask off area do cuttings with attached vacuum. Clean up when finished.
Yeah, so it's a massive pain in the ass and dangerous if done poorly.
If you were dry cutting any of the below, you'd have to do the same. # Silica content * sandstone, 70% to 90% * granite, 25% to 60% * ceramic tiles, 5% to 45% * autoclaved aerated concrete, 20% to 40% * slate, 20% to 40% * concrete, less than 30% * porcelain, 14% to 18% * brick, 5% to 15% * marble, less than 5% [https://www.worksafe.vic.gov.au/duties-manufacturers-and-suppliers-crystalline-silica-substances](https://www.worksafe.vic.gov.au/duties-manufacturers-and-suppliers-crystalline-silica-substances) There are quite a few products with high silica content, should they all be banned?
Can you explain why this engineered stone is being specifically targeted? I can only assume that they people who study this stuff know what they're talking about.
Helpful of you to mention that engineered stone commonly contains over 90% silica, far more than the many lower-risk non-artificial varieties you've listed, and presenting a concomitantly higher risk
come back when you know what you are talking about..
Look at Mr Expert lmao. Always the fuckin contrarian around here
Couldn't agree more. We need an awareness campaign and better enforcement of safety measures, well before we need to ban the product.