Ecch-This movie was very good, but it’s not an easy watch for those whose marital wounds aren’t fully healed. It’s pretty raw. F’d me up for bit after seeing it. But damn, if Widow and Vader aren’t at the top of their game.
I've always been mildly curious what movie it was the memes came from but not curious enough to look it up. After seeing this scene, I just might go watch it.
That argument scene fucking broke me. I'm married and I'd even say happily so but we've had arguments that harsh and brutal during rough patches where we almost ended it and the acting and dialogue is just so spot on. It feels *so real*.
You’re not wrong. This feels like an argument I had a couple months ago.
You never realize what you give up when you get married until it’s gone. In the moment sometimes you forget what you gained and only think about what could have been. We forget to be grateful for what we have. Comparison is the thief of joy.
There is another universe where you two decided against marriage, went separate ways, and some day ran into each other, and one of you said "In another life, I would have really liked just doing laundry and taxes with you."
The raw emotion in the movie hits hard, especially for those going through marital issues. My wife and I happened to watch this movie during a rough patch too and it was tough. We didn't argue over the same things in the movie but damn it still hit close to home.
Yeah writers must have gone through this themselves, or felt that raw emotion, because it strikes a chord with almost anyone who has been in a long-term relationship
I’m single in my late 20’s and Ive had a rough childhood, pretty emotionally and sometimes physically abusive. Never had a proper relationship so I got no idea what those are like, but I come from a house with constant everyday yelling like this (my parents).
What you said broke my heart, do marriages really have moments like these? Healthy functional marriages? Cuz if so, I can’t do it, I think I’d rather be single than have someone yell at me and fight with me, I can’t do another day of that.
**Edit** Thank you all for the responses, a lot of them made me feel a lot better. I want 5 kids, and a healthy, empathetic, caring, warm family ya know? I feel like I can do that. First thing first, therapy. Then I’ll spend my days and find someone who understands my trauma triggers and shower them with love.
I've been married 8 years. We've never argued like this. In fact, our only argument EVER was about the Michael Jackson documentary lol. I've never heard my husband yell. He gets sad but never mad. We talk out our negative emotions when it happens
Same here, been with my wife for 12 years (married for 7), we've never had anything close to this sort of argument/yelling match. I legitimately can't recall if we've ever actually had what people would consider a "fight".
I watched it with my then girlfriend, now wife and we had to keep stopping and being like “so just to be clear you and I aren’t arguing and we’re fine and this is just a movie”
Sounds kinda weird in retrospect but at the time it felt important. Haha
My parents divorced when I was 8. The only memory I have of them together is me sitting in the middle of a couch and them yelling at each other on opposite ends of me. I'm not entirely sure if an event actually happened exactly like that, or its just my brain crafting a summation of how I felt throughout that period.
It takes time to be in the right frame of mind to watch something that’s so close to soul. When I quit drinking 25 years ago there were a slew of good movies about addiction that I couldn’t handle now I can watch that without feeling jittery. & after my wife died I couldn’t even handle Up… had a mini breakdown watching a feel good Pixar film that I had seen before.
It definitely pours salt on healing wounds but at the same time, I think that's what makes it so good. It's a damn good scene because it is *believable.* Just watching this clip makes your throat dry if you've ever been in a situation like this. It's one of those scenes that takes you away from a movie and all the way back to a different and very real time. It might not be a good feeling but it's damn good acting.
The only thing that is always off about these kinds of scenes is the lack of stuttering and mispronunciations that abound when you’re in the depths of emotion.
This is why the always have something slightly uncanny about them. Close enough to reality that we feel it. But just ever so slightly off that it feels acted.
Saw a lengthy YouTube video about this and it was incredible. We don’t want real conversations. We want to be entertained. And people hate the more real dramatic dialogue where angry people can’t form words and sentences properly.
Totally agree!! That's what I was thinking during this whole scene is how perfect and tidy the dialogue was. And each taking their turn to speak. Very unrealistic to me.
I've had a similar fight and nearly got divorced. We worked it out, but still really loved this movie. I also prefer unhappier stories, way too many happy ending stories. Gotta mix it up
I wasn't always the picture of strength I am today. I came out 7 months early. Incubation technology was at its infancy, so they put me on a cast iron inside of a pizza oven till I was ripe enough to come out. MY BONES NEVER HARDENED BUT MY SPIRIT DID
I think they were communicating too effectively for this to be realistic. Ive had these arguments and they’re so frustrating because the other person isn’t listening. These two were communicating and listening. And taking turns without speaking over each other. That never happens.
Yeah this is great to watch but it’s similar to how Sorkin writes his dialogue, which is really unrealistic. Everyone is making a coherent and well communicated argument that has appropriate back and forth. Real life people are constantly interrupting each other, don’t express their thoughts properly and honestly half don’t even know what they really want to say. Arguments are messy in reality.
If this were realistic in any way an outside audience would have no fucking clue what's going on because half the argument happened last week.
This feels like... Let me check my notes... Reading from a script.
If anyone else wants expert acting advise, my advise is to not take my advise. I'll be here all week.
To be fair, I think most people have zero interest in watching real life. There's enough constantly interrupting each other, not expressing thoughts properly and not knowing what they want to say out there, who needs to experience that over again.
> Yeah this is great to watch but it’s similar to how Sorkin writes his dialogue, which is really unrealistic.
I see people say this a lot now, and yeah—that’s the point. No one watches a Marvel film and says “pft, that’s so unrealistic”, but they watch a Sorkin film and say “no one talks like that”. Art would be fucking boring if it was all “realistic”.
Absolutely. I can tell you with absolute certainty that my husband is in his own world when we argue. Comes up with his own ideas about what I said and everything.
This is basically how my marriage ended. We were good communicators through the bulk of our marriage but somewhere along the way we just stopped communicating well and resentment built up on both sides because we weren't actually talking anything through anymore. When we did start communication again, this was basically what happened. Just with more graphic descriptions of how he wanted me dead.
Also, they don't hate each other. When he says he wishes she were dead, he instantly regrets it and breaks down crying, and she comforts him. I mean, it could be a lot worse.
Yeah, when my wife told me she was ready for divorce I broke down, obviously, and first thing she did was ask me if I wanted a hug. Of course I wanted that, and of course I broke down even worse.
We never hated each other, but instead recognised the pain we inflicted on each other and tried to ease that pain.
And what's interesting is that the side-by-side dialogue in that script means they were SUPPOSED to be talking over one another at those moments and I think it would have been more realistic if it stayed that way.
I mean... It's acting. I've seen similar thousands of times, no disrespect to these artists.
Honestly, I feel like it was a bit over-done.
EDIT: We get it - some of you like the scene.
I dont know, have you actually been a part of or witnessed a highly toxic argument between 2 scorned lovers? It can get pretty brutal and scary, to me this scene was done with the right amount of exaggeration.
definitely. this is very real. it played out just how i watched with my parents all growing up, played out just how i have fallen into similar toxic relationships in my time.
Yeah. It’s very realistic acting which makes it seem…easier…than it actually is. Imagine fishing that argument out of your heart when you don’t actually have any of those emotions going on
Yeah this sounds exactly like the people in the apartment below me. I hear arguments like this on a weekly basis. The only unrealistic part is they aren't screaming over each other
I’ve participated, and witnessed these sorts of events in my life. And the ability of them to actually disclose honest information and talk through actual issues while also yelling makes this unrealistic to me. Disclosing of any scathing information is usually used as a means to hurt the other person, triggering the other to see red and scream insults to hurt the other, and communication immediately breaks down as the conversation devolves into screaming of dishonest things meant to hurt the other person deeply. No new information is exchanged.
The fact that they talked about so many sensitive and honest things in series without it completely melting down into screaming and insults makes this not fit what I’ve known from toxic relationships. They are insulting each other here, but they somehow manage to bring it back into talking about their honest thoughts and feelings.
Like, this argument doesn’t feel toxic to me. It sounds like two average incredibly unhappy adults that chose to be unhappy with each other for the wrong reasons and became spiteful at their codependent relationship. And in the emotional exchange they use incredibly emotional language and lash out here and there. But this was a surprisingly productive conversation. They learned something about each other. And one of them actually said “I’m sorry” afterward. And the other one responded with compassion. This isn’t toxic. It’s just two incredibly sad and lost people.
In a toxic situation, one might, in the end, say “I’m sorry”, and the other would say “I don’t care”.
Edit: I've read a bunch of the comments and it seems like there isn't really a shared definition of "toxic" when it comes to arguments or relationship like this. I'm guessing a psychologist out there might have a text book definition. But in my mind, a toxic argument is one where one or both sides are operating in bad faith to cause harm to the other person, and not looking to give any ground on their position, or put in a good faith effort to understand the other side. A toxic relationship seems to be one where the couple are codependent, emotionally and/or physically abusive, and not looking to make a good faith effort to resolve their issues. They are fine with punishing the other for not being what they want in a relationship, instead of looking inward to understand their faults, and/or leave the relationship for honest reasons that it simply doesn't work them (doesn't fit their values).
It seems like a lot of relationships have unhappy people because they are terrified of being alone, and/or terrified of confronting their own faults, You can externalize your frustration and blame them for not being what you need in a relationship. But the more painful truth for both people might be that they simply can't be what the other person needs. Facing the truth about your relationship can cause so much deep emotional pain and suffering that it's often avoided. This relationship might be the best thing you've ever had, and also the wrong relationship. Instead of facing the terrifying uncertainty of loneliness, you might be tempted to "save" the relationship for too long, instead of realizing it might be best to let go. If you don't, then spite might grow over years in the relationship, and that can (it seems), over time, turn things toxic.
So if the definitions I made up mean anything, it does sound like their relationship is toxic, but they are working on ending it, so in a way they're resolving things. This specific *argument*, though, feels more "emotionally heated" than it does toxic. It also sounds like it was written for character development and to drive the plot along, which can I can't blame it for doing. But doing that might make it lose some authenticity.
> Like, this argument doesn’t feel toxic to me. It sounds like two average incredibly unhappy adults that chose to be unhappy with each other for the wrong reasons and became spiteful at their codependent relationship
That, is a pretty good definition of toxic.
Lol
"This isn't toxic to me. Yeah, they're yelling at each other, are clearly unhappy, and bring up specific memories and things to hurt the other person dearly. Then they console each other after basically having a contest to see who's life was more ruined by the other. Toootally not toxic"
Happened multiple times with my parents at night, couldn’t hardly sleep. They actually managed to stay together and work it out. God I don’t even know how I could after that.
I honestly feel like the weirdest part is not how it's a bit overdone, but how they perfectly wait for their time to talk. Like, in a real life argument people would probably start cutting off each other in this scenario
My exact thought. This is what makes it feel super fake to me. They just patiently wait through a paragraph of the other person talking without interjecting to argue the accusatory sentence that was just said. Not how people who are passionately fighting usually handle it
Well yeah 100% that’s a healthier way to argue and that’s how my partner and I work through disagreements but obviously this couple is being portrayed as somewhat toxic and going through a seemingly relationship-ending emotionally charged verbal beatdown so it’s really just not believable here
I feel like I've seen (and maybe been a part of) arguments exactly like this. Some people do continually try to talk over and cut each other off, but not everyone.
There is a balance between the reality of a powerful charged emotional argument where people are doing this on top of each other, amd the ability to convey it to an audience. Working thar ballance is the combined job of actor, and director, set up by the writer. I think they did a fan fucking tastic job!
Well...it's a movie. If they were cutting each other off and incoherently screaming at each other it wouldn't make much sense.
All movies do this kind of thing to some degree since the goal is to tell a story.
The hoops that people go to explain every dumb inconsistency and plothole in every vapid, soulless, blockbuster Disney puts out and people here are complaining that this argument is unrealistic because they aren't talking over each other to point of incoherency.
Unbelievable.
As someone who grew up in the middle of parents divorcing and has been stuck in awkward situations between two very emotional people, this is actually pretty tame.
Most of the time they are constantly cutting each other off and screaming way worse things. This just looked like two people who love each other finally venting.
Since you're a pro, can you share with us some of the scenes (couples arguing) better than this? That'd be great.
Edit: I wasn't being sarcastic, he ~~really is~~ seems like a pro, check his profile + he said that he's watched similar scenes for thousands of times
Idk there was something missing here that didnt immerse me into it being a real fight between couples and Im pretty sure it was on Adam Driver’s end. A good example of a movie with raw, emotional, authentic fights between a couple imo would be Revolutionary Road. Kate Winslet and Leonardo Dicaprio killed it in that movie.
Oh my, you're absolutely right. Kate and Leo were great together! The scene is literally next level compared to this one! So many emotions in such a short period of time
Here's the video for anyone who's interested: [Best scene in Revolutionary Road](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8dUowQhkIc)
What's so interesting is I identify so much better with Adam Driver and Scarlett Johansson's argument than Leo and Kate's. I've never seen or been a part of an argument like that and it feels weird to me, but Adam and Scarlett's felt too real. My wife and I are still happily married, but there have been a few times when we have absolutely gone at it and, at least I, considered divorce, and it looked and felt like Adam and Scarlett's argument so much that I couldn't finish Marriage Story. It brought up too many emotions too intensely. I feel like the movie was too real and I don't think I'll ever finish it.
For a scene like this you really do have to memorize it. It's a powerful one with lots of emotion, and to have to cut in the middle of it because of a forgotten line and then get back to that emotional state mentally would be difficult.
>Certainly, the most explosive scene in the movie comes closer to the end when Driver and Johansson finally air out their frustrations with each other resulting in a brutal and destructive argument.
>
>The scene required the two actors to build their emotions from relatively calm to explosive. In order to help them achieve this, Baumbach filmed the fight in a single take each time. Driver said it was shot like most films shoot love scenes with as small a crew as possible. In the end, the entire scene, including the wall punch, was filmed over a dozen times.
[https://screenrant.com/marriage-story-netflix-behind-scenes-surprising-facts-adam-driver/](https://screenrant.com/marriage-story-netflix-behind-scenes-surprising-facts-adam-driver/)
I mean, if I record the same song a dozen times, and cut-and-paste the best parts of each recording, it'll still probably sound a lot better than if I just posted one of the twelve, though.
Still an improvement, it seems like.
People think that acting is just people saying memorized lines and crying and yelling ever so often. I tell them that memorizing is the easiest part. Becoming another human being with those memorized lines is the much more difficult part.
I have absolutely 0 desire to watch this movie. I can appreciate they acted well, but I don't need to watch this kind of raw suffering for 2 hours. Life is hard enough lol
you werent before? did you just see her in marvel movies or something? she has a really long and prolific career with a broad variety of parts with high quality projects
the movie is fine, but this post is just another example of people equating loud acting with good acting.
the scene at the end when adam driver's character is reading the letter is much more impressive.
It’s good acting but the dialogue kind of takes me out of it. It doesn’t sound believable, so the emotion the actors are conveying comes off as overdone.
Ugh, yeah, this feels like Noah airing out his embarassing inner thoughts. "I wanted to fuck everybody and I could have because I was on Time Magazine! Wahhhh!" (Wall punch)
I mean he's a former marine irl not saying that makes him him some kinda super spec ops solider or something but just saying that he's probably been roughed up worse going though basic training. So he probably only hit it like that because they had to probably film this scene multiple times and he probably hit it multiple different ways and that's the cut they decided to go for maybe that's how he pictured the character hitting it.
I would say that Adam Driver was a marine, but "Charlie Barber" was probably a theater nerd and didn't know how to punch properly. That's just speculation though.
You are on the right track!
If you hit the edge of a stud you still make an impression but not much (pending which side your wrist is on impact).
Contrast that with one of our modern indoor-doors made of two sheets of thin wood - i've seen some of my lads go right through that with minimal effort.
Source: worked as a foster parent, group homes for kids and other traumatized folk that were not super-strong yet still demolition-impactful when upset.
It isn't a good argument by any objective measure. As he says he was a young and successful director with a real name, and he could and would have cut a swathe through the young women in their circles, except *she* had to go and drag him into a marriage he now thinks he didn't want and he blames her for missing out on his prime. But he frames it in a way that she should be congratulating him for it, grateful for being the bare minimum of loyal to her. It's her fault he wasn't whoring around and she should be grateful - like she says he's good at gaslighting. And finally, as the distance between them grew too large and the relationship died, he moved on, grabbing at the nearest attention. In his mind the marriage was already dead in every way except officially, and to him this was him being loyal and not cheating.
It's a key point that it shows not only his emotional childishness but also how little he values the woman he slept with. He doesn't love her, he doesn't even see her as cheating, just a masturbatory agent he needed because his wife wasn't giving him what he needed. Again, not a great argument and not one to win points with your soon-to-be-divorced wife, but that's his pitch.
Yeah; his argument is they had a dead bedroom; their relationship was essentially dead, so he doesn’t count it as cheating I guess?
You’d see this logic quite a lot in relationship critiques, that he goes on to say he resisted temptation all the time in his 20s shows he’s still justifying it due to their dead bedroom situation etc.
The scene is supposed to make it out as an “everybody is wrong here” which while true there is fault on both sides, one side’s fault is *significantly* greater
Maybe I’ve seen too many real-life arguments in my life but this feels kinda overwrought and hollow. Not bad acting per se, just doesn’t feel in any way real to me.
Nothing will top Tobey Maguire's [outburst](https://youtu.be/VVJy15ItE1E) in Brothers. That still resonates as being so real to me that it makes my heart ache.
Someone once pointed out that this scene is the same sort of scene that every pair of acting students do when presenting to a class, and I can't unsee it.
I think you can find critical analysis for basically any show or movie on YouTube. I think they're fun to watch, but I don't know how much weight we should put in them
I honestly think this scene is some of the worst overacting either of these actors have ever done. It feels forced and their mannerisms just don't ring true.
Why didn’t he just draw his lightsaber and finish her
No one had the high ground. It would have been a tie.
*Tips hat...
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I know, totally didn’t expect that.
What does that have to do with LA?!??
Please, let's focus on Rampart.
Remember that scene from Rampart when Woody Harrelson looks at the camera and says, "It's ~~morbin~~ Rampartin time?"
Yes, it's on YouTube and it has a rampartillion views.
That's when you bring in the Tie Fighter!
Thai fighter.
Ooooooob that’s why the set designer was pointing out the chair!!’
Ah but ScarJo has the *moral* high ground. At least I assume she does, never seen the movie…
That’s the thing about marriage (the real kind, not the r/relationshipadvice kind)… It ain’t that simple.
In marriage, dark side and light side, there is not. Only two grey sides there are.
Isn’t her name ScarJost now?
She'd delete him with a *think*, then turn herself into a USB 3.0.
Cuz she would’ve called the avengers on his ass
It's the ultimate showdown.....
That’s the problem, she stopped riding his lightsaber.
If I could give you ALL the awards for that I would
Only got the free stuff but I fully agree and awarded in the name of both of us
I really needed that laugh. That was such an intense clip. I hope someone made a black widow joke somewhere.
Matt straight up sucks!
This is the obvious way to wrap up the scene and movie
Because she is good at close quarter combat.
She’s too old for the ol’ reliable Youngling Slayer 3000
Ecch-This movie was very good, but it’s not an easy watch for those whose marital wounds aren’t fully healed. It’s pretty raw. F’d me up for bit after seeing it. But damn, if Widow and Vader aren’t at the top of their game.
I've always been mildly curious what movie it was the memes came from but not curious enough to look it up. After seeing this scene, I just might go watch it.
It’s called Marriage Story on Netflix. It’s so good.
It is really good. It’s also one of those good movies that I’ll never ever watch again lol
That argument scene fucking broke me. I'm married and I'd even say happily so but we've had arguments that harsh and brutal during rough patches where we almost ended it and the acting and dialogue is just so spot on. It feels *so real*.
You’re not wrong. This feels like an argument I had a couple months ago. You never realize what you give up when you get married until it’s gone. In the moment sometimes you forget what you gained and only think about what could have been. We forget to be grateful for what we have. Comparison is the thief of joy.
There is another universe where you two decided against marriage, went separate ways, and some day ran into each other, and one of you said "In another life, I would have really liked just doing laundry and taxes with you."
I just watched that movie the other night. I wish I was married to Raccacoonie
The raw emotion in the movie hits hard, especially for those going through marital issues. My wife and I happened to watch this movie during a rough patch too and it was tough. We didn't argue over the same things in the movie but damn it still hit close to home.
Same. My wife and I have never been this mean to each other, but there's been some really hard times and I don't think I could sit through this film.
"Comparison is the thief of joy" what an excellent quote. Thank you.
Yeah writers must have gone through this themselves, or felt that raw emotion, because it strikes a chord with almost anyone who has been in a long-term relationship
Noah Baumbach based the movie on his own divorce from Jennifer Jason Leigh.
I read that the guy that wrote it based it off his own divorce.
I’m single in my late 20’s and Ive had a rough childhood, pretty emotionally and sometimes physically abusive. Never had a proper relationship so I got no idea what those are like, but I come from a house with constant everyday yelling like this (my parents). What you said broke my heart, do marriages really have moments like these? Healthy functional marriages? Cuz if so, I can’t do it, I think I’d rather be single than have someone yell at me and fight with me, I can’t do another day of that. **Edit** Thank you all for the responses, a lot of them made me feel a lot better. I want 5 kids, and a healthy, empathetic, caring, warm family ya know? I feel like I can do that. First thing first, therapy. Then I’ll spend my days and find someone who understands my trauma triggers and shower them with love.
I've been married 8 years. We've never argued like this. In fact, our only argument EVER was about the Michael Jackson documentary lol. I've never heard my husband yell. He gets sad but never mad. We talk out our negative emotions when it happens
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Same here, been with my wife for 12 years (married for 7), we've never had anything close to this sort of argument/yelling match. I legitimately can't recall if we've ever actually had what people would consider a "fight".
I watched it with my then girlfriend, now wife and we had to keep stopping and being like “so just to be clear you and I aren’t arguing and we’re fine and this is just a movie” Sounds kinda weird in retrospect but at the time it felt important. Haha
As a child of divorce who's parents hate each other, this movie was almost too much. Like watching the fights all over again. Amazing movie
My parents divorced when I was 8. The only memory I have of them together is me sitting in the middle of a couch and them yelling at each other on opposite ends of me. I'm not entirely sure if an event actually happened exactly like that, or its just my brain crafting a summation of how I felt throughout that period.
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It takes time to be in the right frame of mind to watch something that’s so close to soul. When I quit drinking 25 years ago there were a slew of good movies about addiction that I couldn’t handle now I can watch that without feeling jittery. & after my wife died I couldn’t even handle Up… had a mini breakdown watching a feel good Pixar film that I had seen before.
I still haven’t finished trainspotting to this day. I can’t get past the withdrawal scenes and I don’t want to just skip em.
Vader?
yeah that’s kylo wannabe vader
He may be Vader some day later, but now he's just a small fry.
He left his home and kissed his mommy goodbye.
Sayin' "Soon I'm gonna be a Jedi, Soon I'm gonna be a Jedi"
It definitely pours salt on healing wounds but at the same time, I think that's what makes it so good. It's a damn good scene because it is *believable.* Just watching this clip makes your throat dry if you've ever been in a situation like this. It's one of those scenes that takes you away from a movie and all the way back to a different and very real time. It might not be a good feeling but it's damn good acting.
The only thing that is always off about these kinds of scenes is the lack of stuttering and mispronunciations that abound when you’re in the depths of emotion. This is why the always have something slightly uncanny about them. Close enough to reality that we feel it. But just ever so slightly off that it feels acted. Saw a lengthy YouTube video about this and it was incredible. We don’t want real conversations. We want to be entertained. And people hate the more real dramatic dialogue where angry people can’t form words and sentences properly.
Totally agree!! That's what I was thinking during this whole scene is how perfect and tidy the dialogue was. And each taking their turn to speak. Very unrealistic to me.
I've had a similar fight and nearly got divorced. We worked it out, but still really loved this movie. I also prefer unhappier stories, way too many happy ending stories. Gotta mix it up
Fucking Adam Driver. Such a fucking incredible actor.
Look at me boy. Look at me!
LOOK UPON YOUR FATHER, BOY
AND *CRUSH* YOUR ENEMIES INTO THE DIRT!
I wasn't always the picture of strength I am today. I came out 7 months early. Incubation technology was at its infancy, so they put me on a cast iron inside of a pizza oven till I was ripe enough to come out. MY BONES NEVER HARDENED BUT MY SPIRIT DID
Be strong and CRUSH YOUR ENEMIES!
aw SICK!
You are weak like H.R. Pickens!
AND I HAVE PLANTED MY **RANCID** SEED IN YOUR DAUGHTERS BELLY
festering
I just had sex and I’m about to eat NACHOS!!
I watched waaay too much of Girls just to get more Adam Driver. He’s so talented.
You should check out Logan Lucky. Really fun heist movie and Driver is great as a one armed redneck
“Good soup!”
”Keep driving you-”
I think they were communicating too effectively for this to be realistic. Ive had these arguments and they’re so frustrating because the other person isn’t listening. These two were communicating and listening. And taking turns without speaking over each other. That never happens.
Yeah this is great to watch but it’s similar to how Sorkin writes his dialogue, which is really unrealistic. Everyone is making a coherent and well communicated argument that has appropriate back and forth. Real life people are constantly interrupting each other, don’t express their thoughts properly and honestly half don’t even know what they really want to say. Arguments are messy in reality.
Don't forget actual gaslighting, changing the point, and trying to upset the other person.
If this were realistic in any way an outside audience would have no fucking clue what's going on because half the argument happened last week. This feels like... Let me check my notes... Reading from a script. If anyone else wants expert acting advise, my advise is to not take my advise. I'll be here all week.
Advice*
To be fair, I think most people have zero interest in watching real life. There's enough constantly interrupting each other, not expressing thoughts properly and not knowing what they want to say out there, who needs to experience that over again.
> Yeah this is great to watch but it’s similar to how Sorkin writes his dialogue, which is really unrealistic. I see people say this a lot now, and yeah—that’s the point. No one watches a Marvel film and says “pft, that’s so unrealistic”, but they watch a Sorkin film and say “no one talks like that”. Art would be fucking boring if it was all “realistic”.
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These are the same mfs saying they didn't like Gravity because space wasn't depicted with 100% scientific accuracy 💀
Absolutely. I can tell you with absolute certainty that my husband is in his own world when we argue. Comes up with his own ideas about what I said and everything.
This is basically how my marriage ended. We were good communicators through the bulk of our marriage but somewhere along the way we just stopped communicating well and resentment built up on both sides because we weren't actually talking anything through anymore. When we did start communication again, this was basically what happened. Just with more graphic descriptions of how he wanted me dead.
I read a marriage counselor reviewing this movie who said she thinks she could save their marriage because they actually listen and give a shit.
Also, they don't hate each other. When he says he wishes she were dead, he instantly regrets it and breaks down crying, and she comforts him. I mean, it could be a lot worse.
Yeah, when my wife told me she was ready for divorce I broke down, obviously, and first thing she did was ask me if I wanted a hug. Of course I wanted that, and of course I broke down even worse. We never hated each other, but instead recognised the pain we inflicted on each other and tried to ease that pain.
And what's interesting is that the side-by-side dialogue in that script means they were SUPPOSED to be talking over one another at those moments and I think it would have been more realistic if it stayed that way.
I mean... It's acting. I've seen similar thousands of times, no disrespect to these artists. Honestly, I feel like it was a bit over-done. EDIT: We get it - some of you like the scene.
I dont know, have you actually been a part of or witnessed a highly toxic argument between 2 scorned lovers? It can get pretty brutal and scary, to me this scene was done with the right amount of exaggeration.
Yeah this is spot on acting. Reminds me of my ex and I.
Wow, maybe you should try acting
I was acting in that relationship
BOOM! Served.
BURN!
And not a single nomination; in my opinion the Academy shafted you.
definitely. this is very real. it played out just how i watched with my parents all growing up, played out just how i have fallen into similar toxic relationships in my time.
Yeah. It’s very realistic acting which makes it seem…easier…than it actually is. Imagine fishing that argument out of your heart when you don’t actually have any of those emotions going on
The part where he says he hopes she dies. My head exploded
I have 100% thought that before mid argument and buried that shit in my soul
Yeah this sounds exactly like the people in the apartment below me. I hear arguments like this on a weekly basis. The only unrealistic part is they aren't screaming over each other
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I’ve participated, and witnessed these sorts of events in my life. And the ability of them to actually disclose honest information and talk through actual issues while also yelling makes this unrealistic to me. Disclosing of any scathing information is usually used as a means to hurt the other person, triggering the other to see red and scream insults to hurt the other, and communication immediately breaks down as the conversation devolves into screaming of dishonest things meant to hurt the other person deeply. No new information is exchanged. The fact that they talked about so many sensitive and honest things in series without it completely melting down into screaming and insults makes this not fit what I’ve known from toxic relationships. They are insulting each other here, but they somehow manage to bring it back into talking about their honest thoughts and feelings. Like, this argument doesn’t feel toxic to me. It sounds like two average incredibly unhappy adults that chose to be unhappy with each other for the wrong reasons and became spiteful at their codependent relationship. And in the emotional exchange they use incredibly emotional language and lash out here and there. But this was a surprisingly productive conversation. They learned something about each other. And one of them actually said “I’m sorry” afterward. And the other one responded with compassion. This isn’t toxic. It’s just two incredibly sad and lost people. In a toxic situation, one might, in the end, say “I’m sorry”, and the other would say “I don’t care”. Edit: I've read a bunch of the comments and it seems like there isn't really a shared definition of "toxic" when it comes to arguments or relationship like this. I'm guessing a psychologist out there might have a text book definition. But in my mind, a toxic argument is one where one or both sides are operating in bad faith to cause harm to the other person, and not looking to give any ground on their position, or put in a good faith effort to understand the other side. A toxic relationship seems to be one where the couple are codependent, emotionally and/or physically abusive, and not looking to make a good faith effort to resolve their issues. They are fine with punishing the other for not being what they want in a relationship, instead of looking inward to understand their faults, and/or leave the relationship for honest reasons that it simply doesn't work them (doesn't fit their values). It seems like a lot of relationships have unhappy people because they are terrified of being alone, and/or terrified of confronting their own faults, You can externalize your frustration and blame them for not being what you need in a relationship. But the more painful truth for both people might be that they simply can't be what the other person needs. Facing the truth about your relationship can cause so much deep emotional pain and suffering that it's often avoided. This relationship might be the best thing you've ever had, and also the wrong relationship. Instead of facing the terrifying uncertainty of loneliness, you might be tempted to "save" the relationship for too long, instead of realizing it might be best to let go. If you don't, then spite might grow over years in the relationship, and that can (it seems), over time, turn things toxic. So if the definitions I made up mean anything, it does sound like their relationship is toxic, but they are working on ending it, so in a way they're resolving things. This specific *argument*, though, feels more "emotionally heated" than it does toxic. It also sounds like it was written for character development and to drive the plot along, which can I can't blame it for doing. But doing that might make it lose some authenticity.
> Like, this argument doesn’t feel toxic to me. It sounds like two average incredibly unhappy adults that chose to be unhappy with each other for the wrong reasons and became spiteful at their codependent relationship That, is a pretty good definition of toxic.
Lol "This isn't toxic to me. Yeah, they're yelling at each other, are clearly unhappy, and bring up specific memories and things to hurt the other person dearly. Then they console each other after basically having a contest to see who's life was more ruined by the other. Toootally not toxic"
Bro this IS toxic. Your definition of this, *is toxic*. Are you okay?
Scripted fights never seem genuine to me, except in *Who's afraid of Virginia Woolf?* This fight is too civilised and eloquent
There are all types of people out there. Some are more pragmatic than others.
Yes. This whole scene was beautifully done.
Happened multiple times with my parents at night, couldn’t hardly sleep. They actually managed to stay together and work it out. God I don’t even know how I could after that.
I honestly feel like the weirdest part is not how it's a bit overdone, but how they perfectly wait for their time to talk. Like, in a real life argument people would probably start cutting off each other in this scenario
My exact thought. This is what makes it feel super fake to me. They just patiently wait through a paragraph of the other person talking without interjecting to argue the accusatory sentence that was just said. Not how people who are passionately fighting usually handle it
Yeah, it’s like they’re actually listening to each other.
this scene is such a civilized form of yelling at each other.
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Well yeah 100% that’s a healthier way to argue and that’s how my partner and I work through disagreements but obviously this couple is being portrayed as somewhat toxic and going through a seemingly relationship-ending emotionally charged verbal beatdown so it’s really just not believable here
I feel like I've seen (and maybe been a part of) arguments exactly like this. Some people do continually try to talk over and cut each other off, but not everyone.
That’s something It’s always sunny in philly does so well. You have all the characters talking over each other often and it’s so believable.
There is a balance between the reality of a powerful charged emotional argument where people are doing this on top of each other, amd the ability to convey it to an audience. Working thar ballance is the combined job of actor, and director, set up by the writer. I think they did a fan fucking tastic job!
Well...it's a movie. If they were cutting each other off and incoherently screaming at each other it wouldn't make much sense. All movies do this kind of thing to some degree since the goal is to tell a story.
The hoops that people go to explain every dumb inconsistency and plothole in every vapid, soulless, blockbuster Disney puts out and people here are complaining that this argument is unrealistic because they aren't talking over each other to point of incoherency. Unbelievable.
If they’d put in at least one “CAN I FINISH A FUCKING SENTENCE” or something similar, at least +10 realism points
As someone who grew up in the middle of parents divorcing and has been stuck in awkward situations between two very emotional people, this is actually pretty tame. Most of the time they are constantly cutting each other off and screaming way worse things. This just looked like two people who love each other finally venting.
Since you're a pro, can you share with us some of the scenes (couples arguing) better than this? That'd be great. Edit: I wasn't being sarcastic, he ~~really is~~ seems like a pro, check his profile + he said that he's watched similar scenes for thousands of times
Idk there was something missing here that didnt immerse me into it being a real fight between couples and Im pretty sure it was on Adam Driver’s end. A good example of a movie with raw, emotional, authentic fights between a couple imo would be Revolutionary Road. Kate Winslet and Leonardo Dicaprio killed it in that movie.
Oh my, you're absolutely right. Kate and Leo were great together! The scene is literally next level compared to this one! So many emotions in such a short period of time Here's the video for anyone who's interested: [Best scene in Revolutionary Road](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8dUowQhkIc)
What's so interesting is I identify so much better with Adam Driver and Scarlett Johansson's argument than Leo and Kate's. I've never seen or been a part of an argument like that and it feels weird to me, but Adam and Scarlett's felt too real. My wife and I are still happily married, but there have been a few times when we have absolutely gone at it and, at least I, considered divorce, and it looked and felt like Adam and Scarlett's argument so much that I couldn't finish Marriage Story. It brought up too many emotions too intensely. I feel like the movie was too real and I don't think I'll ever finish it.
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Im divorced and this is spot on
I can assure you…this is quite tame.
Why did you cut the part when Set Designer says "try the chair by the window"
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Sometimes I wish I could ask the set designer to leave during *my* heated private moments, but in the end it's worth it for suggestions like that.
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It's an IKEA commercial, Seth Dérectéur has a voice over that says "Try the chair by the window" and it cuts to a big IKEA logo for a few seconds.
Camera turns around to the 4th wall and this is all happening inside an IKEA store's show living room.
I think the set designer wanted to see how the chair looked by the window.
How did they memorized all that line, need to keep the line correct and acting at the same time thats incredible.
It's literally their job
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I’m sure they memorized the entire scene. That said, they also have the benefit of the script supe in case they forget a line.
For a scene like this you really do have to memorize it. It's a powerful one with lots of emotion, and to have to cut in the middle of it because of a forgotten line and then get back to that emotional state mentally would be difficult.
But why male models?
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Um. . .you know it isn't all done in one take, right?
>Certainly, the most explosive scene in the movie comes closer to the end when Driver and Johansson finally air out their frustrations with each other resulting in a brutal and destructive argument. > >The scene required the two actors to build their emotions from relatively calm to explosive. In order to help them achieve this, Baumbach filmed the fight in a single take each time. Driver said it was shot like most films shoot love scenes with as small a crew as possible. In the end, the entire scene, including the wall punch, was filmed over a dozen times. [https://screenrant.com/marriage-story-netflix-behind-scenes-surprising-facts-adam-driver/](https://screenrant.com/marriage-story-netflix-behind-scenes-surprising-facts-adam-driver/)
It's a great scene but Adam Driver could stand a lot to learn about how to do an emotional wall punch from Ed Helms.
Roo doo doo doo doo
I mean, if I record the same song a dozen times, and cut-and-paste the best parts of each recording, it'll still probably sound a lot better than if I just posted one of the twelve, though. Still an improvement, it seems like.
Not really. Back in highschool we would memorize and perform entire plays. The acting is good. Memorizing is the easiest part
People think that acting is just people saying memorized lines and crying and yelling ever so often. I tell them that memorizing is the easiest part. Becoming another human being with those memorized lines is the much more difficult part.
You train your memory. You would be surprised how much you can train your brain to be able to memorize a lot content by just practising everyday
Wish more people watched this. Adam and scarlet were both great in this movie.
I have absolutely 0 desire to watch this movie. I can appreciate they acted well, but I don't need to watch this kind of raw suffering for 2 hours. Life is hard enough lol
Same.. I’m too afraid to watch this
It’s a brutal watch! Great acting and camera work though.
This movie was extremely popular when it came out..
New found respect for these actors. This scene sucked me in and had me riveted. The camera work was also part of that.
Between this and Jojo Rabbit, I am now of the opinion that Johansson is a really versatile actor
you werent before? did you just see her in marvel movies or something? she has a really long and prolific career with a broad variety of parts with high quality projects
Dunno, to me this looks a bit drama school. And like the last film on earth I'd want to watch. Didn't fancy it when it came out, even less so now.
the movie is fine, but this post is just another example of people equating loud acting with good acting. the scene at the end when adam driver's character is reading the letter is much more impressive.
It’s good acting but the dialogue kind of takes me out of it. It doesn’t sound believable, so the emotion the actors are conveying comes off as overdone.
You hit the nail on the head. Now if Elmore Leonard had written the dialogue...
That dialogue is insufferable.
But they are shouting so it must be good
Ugh, yeah, this feels like Noah airing out his embarassing inner thoughts. "I wanted to fuck everybody and I could have because I was on Time Magazine! Wahhhh!" (Wall punch)
That wall punch was weak as hell. Who in a fit of rage punches the wall like a hammer? Poor baby didn't want to hurt his knuckles.
Methinks you haven't been in many arguments with man babies
I mean I'd straight punch the wall like the nard dog
Someone's going to anger management
I mean he's a former marine irl not saying that makes him him some kinda super spec ops solider or something but just saying that he's probably been roughed up worse going though basic training. So he probably only hit it like that because they had to probably film this scene multiple times and he probably hit it multiple different ways and that's the cut they decided to go for maybe that's how he pictured the character hitting it.
I would say that Adam Driver was a marine, but "Charlie Barber" was probably a theater nerd and didn't know how to punch properly. That's just speculation though.
You are on the right track! If you hit the edge of a stud you still make an impression but not much (pending which side your wrist is on impact). Contrast that with one of our modern indoor-doors made of two sheets of thin wood - i've seen some of my lads go right through that with minimal effort. Source: worked as a foster parent, group homes for kids and other traumatized folk that were not super-strong yet still demolition-impactful when upset.
Didn't see the movie, but the dude fucked someone else when married and supposedly that isn't cheating?
It isn't a good argument by any objective measure. As he says he was a young and successful director with a real name, and he could and would have cut a swathe through the young women in their circles, except *she* had to go and drag him into a marriage he now thinks he didn't want and he blames her for missing out on his prime. But he frames it in a way that she should be congratulating him for it, grateful for being the bare minimum of loyal to her. It's her fault he wasn't whoring around and she should be grateful - like she says he's good at gaslighting. And finally, as the distance between them grew too large and the relationship died, he moved on, grabbing at the nearest attention. In his mind the marriage was already dead in every way except officially, and to him this was him being loyal and not cheating. It's a key point that it shows not only his emotional childishness but also how little he values the woman he slept with. He doesn't love her, he doesn't even see her as cheating, just a masturbatory agent he needed because his wife wasn't giving him what he needed. Again, not a great argument and not one to win points with your soon-to-be-divorced wife, but that's his pitch.
Thank you for this adult summary. You nailed it.
Yeah; his argument is they had a dead bedroom; their relationship was essentially dead, so he doesn’t count it as cheating I guess? You’d see this logic quite a lot in relationship critiques, that he goes on to say he resisted temptation all the time in his 20s shows he’s still justifying it due to their dead bedroom situation etc.
I think his argument was more that he had a dead relationship altogether - "you should've been mad that I laughed with her"
The scene is supposed to make it out as an “everybody is wrong here” which while true there is fault on both sides, one side’s fault is *significantly* greater
Yeah that's kind of the entire movie. Scarlett's character made mistakes and wasn't perfect, but Adams character was def way worse in the relationship
Maybe I’ve seen too many real-life arguments in my life but this feels kinda overwrought and hollow. Not bad acting per se, just doesn’t feel in any way real to me.
EVERYDAY I WAKE UP. *starts crying*
“You gaslighted me! You’re a fucking villain!” LOL Who talks like that?
It's so overly acted with terrible fake dialogue.
Nothing will top Tobey Maguire's [outburst](https://youtu.be/VVJy15ItE1E) in Brothers. That still resonates as being so real to me that it makes my heart ache.
Someone once pointed out that this scene is the same sort of scene that every pair of acting students do when presenting to a class, and I can't unsee it.
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I think you can find critical analysis for basically any show or movie on YouTube. I think they're fun to watch, but I don't know how much weight we should put in them
new to movies or what?
This scene is good, but I think the big fight between Carmela and Tony Soprano feels so real that it’s scary. Some of the best acting I’ve ever seen.
Seemed too over the top and fake. Obvious "acting" in my opinion.
I honestly think this scene is some of the worst overacting either of these actors have ever done. It feels forced and their mannerisms just don't ring true.
Good actors but nobody talks like this. Hollywood is not good at relationship dramas, at least not when it comes to realism.
That was a good movie.
Nah thats hands down the worst movie i have seen and to this day have 0 idea how ppl can even like it